1 00:00:03,369 --> 00:00:05,710 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast, 2 00:00:08,310 --> 00:00:11,359 Speaker 1: Tiffany. Have you ever felt anything like an impostor before? 3 00:00:11,500 --> 00:00:15,289 Speaker 1: When have I not? Is there a particular group of 4 00:00:15,300 --> 00:00:18,009 Speaker 1: people that this would be a bit more common with? 5 00:00:18,260 --> 00:00:20,829 Speaker 2: According to the research, there's a lot more when it 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,770 Speaker 2: comes to minorities or I am an overachiever imposter complex 7 00:00:25,844 --> 00:00:28,504 Speaker 2: is when people have this idea is I must get 8 00:00:28,514 --> 00:00:29,784 Speaker 2: it right the first time. Let's 9 00:00:29,795 --> 00:00:32,055 Speaker 1: talk about hot tits, right? What are some tools or 10 00:00:32,064 --> 00:00:33,865 Speaker 1: steps you can take to get out of that 11 00:00:33,875 --> 00:00:37,985 Speaker 2: by making into like a small map where it's clear, 12 00:00:37,994 --> 00:00:42,263 Speaker 2: concrete winds. It starts to build the belief that actually, hey, 13 00:00:42,275 --> 00:00:43,264 Speaker 2: I can do this. 14 00:00:45,389 --> 00:00:47,900 Speaker 1: Hi there, I'm Tiffany and this is work it a 15 00:00:47,909 --> 00:00:50,779 Speaker 1: podcast where we try and figure out how to work 16 00:00:50,790 --> 00:00:54,009 Speaker 1: better because after all, we're gonna be spending more than 17 00:00:54,020 --> 00:00:57,119 Speaker 1: a third of our lives doing that. And I'm Gerald 18 00:00:57,130 --> 00:00:59,409 Speaker 1: in my day job, I'm a career counselor and that's 19 00:00:59,419 --> 00:01:02,250 Speaker 1: what I love doing, helping people figure out how to 20 00:01:02,259 --> 00:01:05,610 Speaker 1: navigate their working decisions. And as usual, we have an 21 00:01:05,620 --> 00:01:09,449 Speaker 1: ask me anything segment at the end, but I'm not 22 00:01:09,459 --> 00:01:10,010 Speaker 1: the one giving 23 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: the answers. Because what do I know? I will leave 24 00:01:13,010 --> 00:01:16,929 Speaker 1: that to the expert. My co-host Gerald this week's question 25 00:01:16,940 --> 00:01:19,899 Speaker 1: was sent to one of our producers and it's a 26 00:01:19,910 --> 00:01:24,410 Speaker 1: tricky one coworkers who are not interested in doing their job. 27 00:01:24,419 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: What should you do? We'll get your advice on that. 28 00:01:28,089 --> 00:01:32,099 Speaker 1: But hey, if you have a burning question, tell us, 29 00:01:32,110 --> 00:01:34,699 Speaker 1: send it to us on our social media channels. 30 00:01:34,849 --> 00:01:37,819 Speaker 1: Gerald and I are both on linkedin or you can 31 00:01:37,830 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: write to us at CN A podcasts at mediacorp.com dot SG. 32 00:01:42,449 --> 00:01:44,300 Speaker 1: And I'll try my best to help you answer them 33 00:01:44,309 --> 00:01:47,919 Speaker 1: by sharing some perspectives before we dive into today's topic, 34 00:01:47,930 --> 00:01:50,339 Speaker 1: which I'm really excited about. I want to ask all 35 00:01:50,349 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: of you to subscribe or follow us on Spotify or 36 00:01:53,169 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: Apple podcast if you have not already done. So that 37 00:01:56,410 --> 00:01:59,489 Speaker 1: way you get an alert whenever a new episode drops. 38 00:02:01,379 --> 00:02:03,290 Speaker 1: So for today's topic, you know, we want to talk 39 00:02:03,300 --> 00:02:05,889 Speaker 1: about something that most of us have faced. At least 40 00:02:05,900 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: for me, I know I face it very often imposter syndrome. 41 00:02:10,038 --> 00:02:12,509 Speaker 1: I know Tiffany. Have you ever felt anything like an 42 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: impostor before? When have I not? 43 00:02:16,250 --> 00:02:19,139 Speaker 1: Every time I start a new job or transition into 44 00:02:19,149 --> 00:02:22,190 Speaker 1: a new role? I get that tiny little voice in 45 00:02:22,199 --> 00:02:26,250 Speaker 1: my head telling me that sooner or later, somebody will 46 00:02:26,258 --> 00:02:30,449 Speaker 1: realize you are a fraud. What about you? Most? Definitely. 47 00:02:30,460 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: So even now, since I'm so new to this podcast, 48 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,050 Speaker 1: I also remember feeling like an impostor when I was 49 00:02:36,059 --> 00:02:38,309 Speaker 1: given new team leader responsibilities at work. 50 00:02:38,681 --> 00:02:40,983 Speaker 1: There's just so much I didn't know and my mind 51 00:02:40,992 --> 00:02:43,042 Speaker 1: just goes wild. And for Timothy is a small voice 52 00:02:43,052 --> 00:02:46,072 Speaker 1: for mine, it goes wild with like what's happening? What 53 00:02:46,082 --> 00:02:48,393 Speaker 1: should I do and definitely glad that we are talking 54 00:02:48,401 --> 00:02:51,272 Speaker 1: about this today. Yeah. So joining us today to talk 55 00:02:51,282 --> 00:02:55,072 Speaker 1: about this is Yasmin Katter. She is the founder of 56 00:02:55,082 --> 00:02:58,791 Speaker 1: sales story method where she coaches business leaders and I 57 00:02:58,802 --> 00:03:00,432 Speaker 1: love this. I read this online. 58 00:03:00,576 --> 00:03:05,585 Speaker 1: She calls herself an aspiring armchair neuroscientist and she has 59 00:03:05,595 --> 00:03:08,576 Speaker 1: a degree in psychology. So Yasmin, welcome to the show. 60 00:03:09,225 --> 00:03:11,484 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be 61 00:03:11,496 --> 00:03:15,216 Speaker 1: here. Yasmin. The thing about the aspiring armchair neuroscientists, tell 62 00:03:15,225 --> 00:03:16,416 Speaker 1: us a bit more about it. 63 00:03:16,725 --> 00:03:19,856 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I am fascinated by the human brain. Like 64 00:03:19,865 --> 00:03:22,595 Speaker 2: when I was a kid, I'm half Egyptian, half Singaporean. 65 00:03:23,029 --> 00:03:26,788 Speaker 2: And I was pretty much very often told that I 66 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,419 Speaker 2: was different. So my brain had not just one storyline. 67 00:03:30,429 --> 00:03:32,698 Speaker 2: It has so many scripts of what was wrong with me. 68 00:03:32,770 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 2: So I was obsessed with it. Like am I broken? 69 00:03:34,649 --> 00:03:36,699 Speaker 2: Is my brain broken is something wrong with me. 70 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,220 Speaker 2: So, study psychology opened up the gateway of that and 71 00:03:40,229 --> 00:03:43,889 Speaker 2: then studying also neuroscience and how we build patterns of behavior, 72 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,919 Speaker 2: made it so much more calming and easing. Even though 73 00:03:46,929 --> 00:03:49,979 Speaker 2: you're still navigating your emotions, the emotions don't go away. 74 00:03:50,139 --> 00:03:54,050 Speaker 2: Someone was asking me, do you feel imposter or complex? 75 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,369 Speaker 2: Actually funnily enough the day that Tiffany called me, I 76 00:03:57,380 --> 00:03:59,979 Speaker 2: had just had a meeting and it's a very new 77 00:03:59,990 --> 00:04:02,559 Speaker 2: industry that I'm entering. He was asking me questions that 78 00:04:02,570 --> 00:04:04,699 Speaker 2: seemed very basic and I didn't know how to answer. 79 00:04:04,710 --> 00:04:06,789 Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, and I know this stuff, 80 00:04:06,940 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: but still we still feel it and how do we 81 00:04:08,809 --> 00:04:09,990 Speaker 2: navigate through it? Well, 82 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,820 Speaker 1: I think we need to first explain what imposter syndrome 83 00:04:12,830 --> 00:04:15,210 Speaker 1: is because some people may not know, maybe the lucky 84 00:04:15,220 --> 00:04:17,980 Speaker 1: ones among us may not know what it is. Ok. 85 00:04:17,988 --> 00:04:20,779 Speaker 1: Can you tell us what is the definition of imposter 86 00:04:20,790 --> 00:04:24,308 Speaker 2: syndrome? So, impostor syndrome for me is any time we 87 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,519 Speaker 2: feel like a fraud, we feel like we're questioning like, 88 00:04:27,529 --> 00:04:31,369 Speaker 2: can I actually do this despite the facts, actually showing 89 00:04:31,380 --> 00:04:33,230 Speaker 2: us that you can OK, you may have done it 90 00:04:33,238 --> 00:04:35,540 Speaker 2: like 1000 times, you still do it or you've done 91 00:04:35,549 --> 00:04:36,829 Speaker 2: it for the first time and you do it. 92 00:04:37,178 --> 00:04:38,738 Speaker 2: Now, on the way here, I was talking to my 93 00:04:38,750 --> 00:04:41,529 Speaker 2: taxi driver and the way he described it to me 94 00:04:41,540 --> 00:04:45,079 Speaker 2: when I told him what it was like a be inferior, right? 95 00:04:45,089 --> 00:04:47,420 Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, when we feel like those 96 00:04:47,428 --> 00:04:50,910 Speaker 2: inferior thoughts, when we're feeling smaller then and the thing 97 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,100 Speaker 2: is no one's telling us this, it's just the narrative 98 00:04:53,109 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 2: in our head 99 00:04:53,970 --> 00:04:56,820 Speaker 2: for just having a channel a station that's playing in 100 00:04:56,829 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 2: the background. Like dictating what's happening for 101 00:04:59,850 --> 00:05:03,140 Speaker 1: us. Right. Gerald, is there anything that you have also 102 00:05:03,149 --> 00:05:06,100 Speaker 1: seen in your career that you would say can be 103 00:05:06,109 --> 00:05:10,368 Speaker 1: very limiting for somebody who is suffering from imposter syndrome? Yeah, definitely. 104 00:05:10,380 --> 00:05:13,789 Speaker 1: So when I work with individuals about their career decisions, 105 00:05:13,799 --> 00:05:16,029 Speaker 1: very often, it prevents them from performing, 106 00:05:16,455 --> 00:05:19,355 Speaker 1: it prevents them from even making a decision about an 107 00:05:19,365 --> 00:05:22,955 Speaker 1: opportunity that's presented before them. So really impo syndrome is 108 00:05:22,966 --> 00:05:26,385 Speaker 1: often the result of overly high and very unrealistic expectations 109 00:05:26,395 --> 00:05:31,226 Speaker 1: of ourselves in new situations or even familiar situations creates 110 00:05:31,235 --> 00:05:33,876 Speaker 1: a like what Yasmin was saying in the sense of phoniness, 111 00:05:34,026 --> 00:05:37,635 Speaker 1: like I'm fake and manifest itself as negative self talk. 112 00:05:37,645 --> 00:05:38,835 Speaker 1: Is there a particular group of, 113 00:05:38,940 --> 00:05:41,802 Speaker 1: of people that this would be a bit more common with? 114 00:05:41,812 --> 00:05:44,552 Speaker 2: So according to the research, there's a lot more when 115 00:05:44,562 --> 00:05:47,562 Speaker 2: it comes to minorities. OK? Now we're finding more women 116 00:05:47,571 --> 00:05:50,361 Speaker 2: in the workplace. So because they're new in the workplace 117 00:05:50,372 --> 00:05:52,302 Speaker 2: and the levels that we have, there's a lot more 118 00:05:52,312 --> 00:05:54,971 Speaker 2: in that group, but we also have minorities, for example, 119 00:05:54,981 --> 00:05:57,312 Speaker 2: if you're working in a global company and no one 120 00:05:57,321 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 2: is Asian and you're the only Asian, then you're going 121 00:05:59,891 --> 00:06:02,772 Speaker 2: to feel a little bit more of that. Or for example, 122 00:06:02,782 --> 00:06:04,881 Speaker 2: if you're coming to an environment and you're the only 123 00:06:04,891 --> 00:06:07,522 Speaker 2: one that's foreign in it, that can also cause it 124 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:09,940 Speaker 2: and then you also have people who are very young 125 00:06:09,950 --> 00:06:12,980 Speaker 2: people who are fresh graduates and so forth there's another 126 00:06:12,988 --> 00:06:16,070 Speaker 2: group that's quite common as well or someone who's having 127 00:06:16,079 --> 00:06:18,790 Speaker 2: a new role. So you mentioned new job, you experience that. 128 00:06:18,970 --> 00:06:21,779 Speaker 2: So those are the groups that happen more of. And 129 00:06:21,790 --> 00:06:24,380 Speaker 2: if you look at it psychologically, there's a lot of 130 00:06:24,390 --> 00:06:28,589 Speaker 2: it can be also driven by social factors, by personality 131 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,078 Speaker 2: and also our learning styles. So if you look at personality, 132 00:06:32,089 --> 00:06:33,100 Speaker 2: people who are like, 133 00:06:33,500 --> 00:06:37,339 Speaker 2: it has to be perfect or I am an overachiever, 134 00:06:37,470 --> 00:06:39,799 Speaker 2: that's when the voice is super loud. And then you 135 00:06:39,809 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 2: also have socially when you're in environments where you're the 136 00:06:42,890 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: only one that's there that also comes out as 137 00:06:45,209 --> 00:06:46,829 Speaker 1: well. Yeah, I was going to say about the high 138 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,589 Speaker 1: achievers because I personally am quite competitive. But I always 139 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,510 Speaker 1: feel that like I have to beat my last best. 140 00:06:53,649 --> 00:06:54,959 Speaker 1: So I guess that's something 141 00:06:55,049 --> 00:06:57,190 Speaker 1: that friends around me would sometimes point out and say 142 00:06:57,399 --> 00:07:01,230 Speaker 1: you don't have to always be winning in your head. 143 00:07:01,238 --> 00:07:03,609 Speaker 1: But because of that, I have that little voice that 144 00:07:03,619 --> 00:07:06,309 Speaker 1: tells me someone's going to realize that you don't have 145 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,019 Speaker 1: it all and then you're going to fail the next time. 146 00:07:09,070 --> 00:07:11,309 Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's because like as human beings, we learn 147 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,859 Speaker 2: by social learning. So if I, for example, I'm in 148 00:07:13,869 --> 00:07:16,589 Speaker 2: an environment and I see like all my friends do something. 149 00:07:16,899 --> 00:07:18,549 Speaker 2: I don't think that I've done it yet or I'm 150 00:07:18,559 --> 00:07:21,540 Speaker 2: not good enough, I'm comparing, there's nothing happening that no 151 00:07:21,549 --> 00:07:23,959 Speaker 2: one's telling me, Tiffany you're doing bad. It's just like 152 00:07:23,970 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: you're automatically comparing. And this happened to me a couple 153 00:07:27,170 --> 00:07:28,619 Speaker 2: of months ago, I was doing a program with Tony 154 00:07:28,630 --> 00:07:32,239 Speaker 2: Robbins and it was a course all around finance and 155 00:07:32,250 --> 00:07:35,779 Speaker 2: people in that room are young all the way up 156 00:07:35,790 --> 00:07:38,519 Speaker 2: to people who are in their sixties. So I'm in 157 00:07:38,529 --> 00:07:42,119 Speaker 2: that room and I'm having impost or complex all the way. 158 00:07:42,390 --> 00:07:43,730 Speaker 2: And then one of my friends looks at me and 159 00:07:43,739 --> 00:07:46,559 Speaker 2: she's like, it's mean, I'm nearly 60. I'm supposed to 160 00:07:46,570 --> 00:07:50,519 Speaker 2: have this done already. You're only like in your thirties, 161 00:07:50,679 --> 00:07:52,570 Speaker 2: what do you expect? And I was like, wow, like, 162 00:07:52,579 --> 00:07:55,750 Speaker 2: even though like you're aware, the social learning automatically makes 163 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:57,208 Speaker 2: your brain compare, I see, 164 00:07:57,739 --> 00:08:00,769 Speaker 1: it's really interesting hearing this conversation because we know that 165 00:08:00,790 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: a lot of this takes place in the workplace building 166 00:08:03,209 --> 00:08:06,029 Speaker 1: on Yasmin's point about how there's a lot of biases, 167 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:06,690 Speaker 1: a lot of facts 168 00:08:07,055 --> 00:08:10,825 Speaker 1: that are involved in creating this sense of phoniness within us. 169 00:08:10,835 --> 00:08:14,325 Speaker 1: So as an organization, what are some things that they 170 00:08:14,335 --> 00:08:16,996 Speaker 1: can do or bring some awareness to, to help the 171 00:08:17,006 --> 00:08:20,805 Speaker 1: leaders or their directors to maybe overcome some of these 172 00:08:20,816 --> 00:08:22,746 Speaker 1: things or even anyone in the company? So I 173 00:08:22,756 --> 00:08:24,915 Speaker 2: love that question because like a double edged sword, right? 174 00:08:24,985 --> 00:08:27,615 Speaker 2: You have, for example, someone joining a team and they 175 00:08:27,626 --> 00:08:30,635 Speaker 2: are junior. So they're already having imposter complex and then 176 00:08:30,645 --> 00:08:31,075 Speaker 2: you have a leader 177 00:08:31,631 --> 00:08:33,971 Speaker 2: and they're like, lead, maybe a bigger team and they're 178 00:08:33,981 --> 00:08:37,361 Speaker 2: also having impostor complex. And I don't think people acknowledge 179 00:08:37,372 --> 00:08:39,361 Speaker 2: that it's not just you're having a hard time is 180 00:08:39,372 --> 00:08:40,481 Speaker 2: the person in front of you who is supposed to 181 00:08:40,492 --> 00:08:43,242 Speaker 2: be managing you is also having a hard time. 182 00:08:43,252 --> 00:08:45,290 Speaker 1: Nobody is saying it, everybody is just 183 00:08:45,302 --> 00:08:48,161 Speaker 2: trying to put on the front and pretending like you 184 00:08:48,171 --> 00:08:52,062 Speaker 2: act as if and back to your question, Gerald, what 185 00:08:52,072 --> 00:08:54,420 Speaker 2: needs to happen or is to actually talk about the 186 00:08:54,432 --> 00:08:55,351 Speaker 2: learning curve 187 00:08:55,869 --> 00:08:58,369 Speaker 2: and the learning curve of me as a leader. I 188 00:08:58,380 --> 00:09:01,890 Speaker 2: have a learning curve. Me as an individual contributor, I 189 00:09:01,900 --> 00:09:04,010 Speaker 2: also have a learning curve. Me in a new role 190 00:09:04,020 --> 00:09:06,069 Speaker 2: has a learning curve. The psychology that I love the 191 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,950 Speaker 2: most around this is Dr Karl Dweck who talks about 192 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,530 Speaker 2: the fix and the growth mindset. And oftentimes another social 193 00:09:12,539 --> 00:09:16,150 Speaker 2: component that gets in the way that causes more accentuating 194 00:09:16,539 --> 00:09:19,940 Speaker 2: imposter complex is when people have this idea is I 195 00:09:19,950 --> 00:09:23,380 Speaker 2: must get it right the first time and that may 196 00:09:23,390 --> 00:09:26,250 Speaker 2: have worked before. But today there's so much disruption in 197 00:09:26,260 --> 00:09:29,020 Speaker 2: the workplace, the jobs that we're doing and the jobs 198 00:09:29,030 --> 00:09:31,809 Speaker 2: that we're going to do haven't even been existed yet. 199 00:09:32,090 --> 00:09:34,159 Speaker 2: Oh, wow. Makes sense. So if we're going to be 200 00:09:34,169 --> 00:09:36,739 Speaker 2: holding on to, I must get it right because we 201 00:09:36,750 --> 00:09:38,609 Speaker 2: were taught in school that if you do something right, 202 00:09:38,619 --> 00:09:41,739 Speaker 2: you got a gold star. Now there's no gold star, 203 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,510 Speaker 2: the gold star is navigating through and being ok with 204 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,669 Speaker 2: failing be ok with the fact that 205 00:09:47,890 --> 00:09:50,130 Speaker 2: it's not always going to work out. So I think, 206 00:09:50,190 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 2: but number one is for companies to normalize that. And 207 00:09:53,849 --> 00:09:57,270 Speaker 2: then number two is also to encourage regular feedback. The 208 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,989 Speaker 2: number of teams that I work with where I discover 209 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,150 Speaker 2: they don't even speak and get construction feedback from their 210 00:10:04,159 --> 00:10:07,069 Speaker 2: leaders regularly. They can maybe once a year, an annual 211 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,820 Speaker 2: review that's going to trigger a lot of impostor 212 00:10:09,830 --> 00:10:11,789 Speaker 1: complex. That's true because you don't know if you are 213 00:10:11,799 --> 00:10:12,659 Speaker 1: hitting any of them 214 00:10:12,822 --> 00:10:13,772 Speaker 1: stones. Yeah. And 215 00:10:13,783 --> 00:10:15,843 Speaker 2: then also like sometimes leaders don't actually break down the 216 00:10:15,852 --> 00:10:19,822 Speaker 2: milestones for somebody, then you have no clear milestones, no 217 00:10:19,833 --> 00:10:23,833 Speaker 2: clear feedback, complete disruption. And then you're wondering why people 218 00:10:23,843 --> 00:10:25,362 Speaker 2: are being triggered a lot more. 219 00:10:25,523 --> 00:10:28,311 Speaker 1: What I'm hearing from Yasmin is there's a need for 220 00:10:28,322 --> 00:10:30,963 Speaker 1: us to be kinder to ourselves to not always aim 221 00:10:30,973 --> 00:10:33,882 Speaker 1: for that gold star and maybe there's no gold star, right? 222 00:10:33,992 --> 00:10:37,632 Speaker 1: And the regular feedback, the regular conversations with the 223 00:10:37,755 --> 00:10:40,065 Speaker 1: leaders in the organization sounds like they should have an 224 00:10:40,075 --> 00:10:46,026 Speaker 1: important similar party since everybody is every six months because 225 00:10:46,125 --> 00:10:48,335 Speaker 1: there's always new people coming to join the club. 226 00:10:48,736 --> 00:10:50,526 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think what needs to be is like 227 00:10:50,535 --> 00:10:54,395 Speaker 2: normalizing the learning and then learning comes also with failing. Actually, 228 00:10:54,405 --> 00:10:54,726 Speaker 2: that's a very 229 00:10:54,736 --> 00:10:57,026 Speaker 1: good point because I remember there was a particular role 230 00:10:57,035 --> 00:11:00,776 Speaker 1: that I stepped into and I honestly, I didn't feel comfortable, 231 00:11:00,785 --> 00:11:02,616 Speaker 1: you know, stepping into that role. I felt that 232 00:11:02,909 --> 00:11:05,719 Speaker 1: I had zero scales. Of course, that wasn't true. But 233 00:11:05,729 --> 00:11:07,770 Speaker 1: I felt that I shouldn't have been allowed to make 234 00:11:07,780 --> 00:11:10,849 Speaker 1: very big decisions, but I was put in that position 235 00:11:11,109 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: and I remembered actually the first day of work, my 236 00:11:14,010 --> 00:11:15,929 Speaker 1: boss said to me, take your time, 237 00:11:16,270 --> 00:11:18,929 Speaker 1: I expect that you will take six months to feel 238 00:11:18,940 --> 00:11:22,489 Speaker 1: comfortable in this role. That line, I don't know, it 239 00:11:22,500 --> 00:11:25,039 Speaker 1: just stuck with me even till today because I feel 240 00:11:25,049 --> 00:11:27,890 Speaker 1: that firstly, he set the expectation for me that he 241 00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:31,049 Speaker 1: wasn't expecting me to be good within the week, right? 242 00:11:31,140 --> 00:11:34,469 Speaker 1: He gave me a six month deadline in a sense, right? 243 00:11:34,479 --> 00:11:36,228 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, he gave me 244 00:11:36,381 --> 00:11:38,482 Speaker 1: tools to get to that six month mark. So he 245 00:11:38,492 --> 00:11:40,552 Speaker 1: would send me for training and everything and that I 246 00:11:40,562 --> 00:11:43,882 Speaker 1: felt was exactly that growth that you were talking about 247 00:11:43,893 --> 00:11:47,083 Speaker 1: that time that you would take to go and hone 248 00:11:47,093 --> 00:11:49,343 Speaker 1: your skills and that sort of took away all that 249 00:11:49,352 --> 00:11:51,523 Speaker 1: impostor syndrome away from you. Of course, you know, here 250 00:11:51,533 --> 00:11:53,783 Speaker 1: and there, that little voice would still come in, but 251 00:11:53,793 --> 00:11:55,872 Speaker 1: it actually made me feel it's ok. I've got this 252 00:11:55,881 --> 00:11:56,402 Speaker 1: because someone else 253 00:11:56,495 --> 00:12:00,194 Speaker 1: has given me time to grow into this space. But 254 00:12:00,205 --> 00:12:03,056 Speaker 1: I think instances I guess where you say imposter syndrome 255 00:12:03,065 --> 00:12:05,834 Speaker 1: could be actually good for an organization, maybe a bit 256 00:12:05,846 --> 00:12:06,356 Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, 257 00:12:06,366 --> 00:12:08,665 Speaker 2: that's a great question. And I think it already exists 258 00:12:08,676 --> 00:12:12,335 Speaker 2: in organizations all the time because what happens is people 259 00:12:12,346 --> 00:12:14,905 Speaker 2: are always getting promoted, people are always joining. So there's 260 00:12:14,916 --> 00:12:16,455 Speaker 2: a component of it, that's always there. 261 00:12:16,780 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 2: The issue with it is it actually is linked back 262 00:12:19,530 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 2: to emotional regulation and how we regulate our emotions. And 263 00:12:22,849 --> 00:12:26,039 Speaker 2: for some people, if they don't know how to do that, 264 00:12:26,049 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 2: then it could actually be quite detrimental for an organization. 265 00:12:28,969 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 2: Because what you end up having is you end up 266 00:12:30,409 --> 00:12:32,468 Speaker 2: having people who are always being triggered And when people 267 00:12:32,479 --> 00:12:35,780 Speaker 2: are being triggered, out of fear, they become avoidant to 268 00:12:35,789 --> 00:12:39,340 Speaker 2: make decisions, they become passive aggressive and they become a 269 00:12:39,349 --> 00:12:41,869 Speaker 2: bit fighting but fighting is not like I'm yelling 270 00:12:41,943 --> 00:12:45,513 Speaker 2: and screaming at Tiffany. It's more like they cut down ideas. 271 00:12:45,713 --> 00:12:48,783 Speaker 2: So they stifle innovation. You have people who are trying 272 00:12:48,794 --> 00:12:51,193 Speaker 2: to make things perfect. But right now in this world, 273 00:12:51,203 --> 00:12:53,164 Speaker 2: there's no such thing as perfection. We need to go, 274 00:12:53,174 --> 00:12:55,664 Speaker 2: we need to move. And then you also have people 275 00:12:55,674 --> 00:12:59,703 Speaker 2: who are always saying yes because they're so afraid and 276 00:12:59,713 --> 00:13:03,023 Speaker 2: they're experiencing imposter complex. So when you have that, you 277 00:13:03,033 --> 00:13:05,674 Speaker 2: have a rise in burnout, a rise in depression in 278 00:13:05,684 --> 00:13:07,004 Speaker 2: the workplace, a rise in people leaving, 279 00:13:07,458 --> 00:13:09,637 Speaker 2: they call it quite quitting all these things. It's actually 280 00:13:09,648 --> 00:13:13,177 Speaker 2: because people are so triggered all the time. So although 281 00:13:13,187 --> 00:13:15,437 Speaker 2: it can be good, it can be good if you 282 00:13:15,447 --> 00:13:19,147 Speaker 2: have leaders who are supporting you through it. But if 283 00:13:19,158 --> 00:13:22,648 Speaker 2: left to your own devices and you have no support system, 284 00:13:22,697 --> 00:13:24,947 Speaker 2: it can actually cause the opposite effect. 285 00:13:25,497 --> 00:13:28,338 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been noticing there's the little recent trend or 286 00:13:28,348 --> 00:13:30,728 Speaker 1: rather over the past few years of companies starting to 287 00:13:30,737 --> 00:13:32,177 Speaker 1: look into how do I create it? 288 00:13:32,271 --> 00:13:37,051 Speaker 1: Culture of empathy of appreciation, a people, culture within the organization. 289 00:13:37,062 --> 00:13:39,851 Speaker 1: And I guess that helps because maybe these companies are 290 00:13:39,861 --> 00:13:43,580 Speaker 1: starting to realize that employees really do need support, not 291 00:13:43,591 --> 00:13:46,372 Speaker 1: just the resources to perform your job well, but it's 292 00:13:46,381 --> 00:13:49,301 Speaker 1: about taking care of them, the emotional well being and 293 00:13:49,312 --> 00:13:52,151 Speaker 1: mental well being so that they can perform well. So 294 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,271 Speaker 1: we are giving them all the tools and support and 295 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,011 Speaker 1: sometimes these tools and support don't come in the form 296 00:13:56,021 --> 00:13:57,351 Speaker 1: of laptops. But it's really 297 00:13:57,476 --> 00:14:00,736 Speaker 1: a culture like what Yasmin was saying, right. If these 298 00:14:01,026 --> 00:14:06,285 Speaker 1: people just have more conversations, recognize each other's humanness just 299 00:14:06,296 --> 00:14:07,885 Speaker 1: because you are a leader, doesn't mean that you don't 300 00:14:07,895 --> 00:14:11,265 Speaker 1: have problems, doesn't mean you don't struggle with difficulties and 301 00:14:11,276 --> 00:14:14,165 Speaker 1: sometimes having that conversation just allows everyone to feel like, yeah, 302 00:14:14,176 --> 00:14:16,375 Speaker 1: we all don't have to chase for that gold star, 303 00:14:16,385 --> 00:14:18,135 Speaker 1: you know. So I do see that more and more 304 00:14:18,145 --> 00:14:20,505 Speaker 1: companies are looking today and I think it's great before 305 00:14:20,515 --> 00:14:22,495 Speaker 1: I guess we wrap up. Let's talk about hot tips, right? 306 00:14:22,750 --> 00:14:26,340 Speaker 1: So if you are a worker, a staff, you're facing 307 00:14:26,349 --> 00:14:29,239 Speaker 1: imposter syndrome. What are some tools or steps you can 308 00:14:29,250 --> 00:14:30,369 Speaker 1: take to get out of that? 309 00:14:30,669 --> 00:14:34,090 Speaker 1: And secondly, if you are the boss of a team, 310 00:14:34,299 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: how do you watch out for these signs and also 311 00:14:36,530 --> 00:14:39,190 Speaker 1: make sure that you help to get your workers out 312 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,450 Speaker 1: of that feeling so that they can continue to remain 313 00:14:41,460 --> 00:14:43,989 Speaker 2: productive. I think the key thing here is like, if 314 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,349 Speaker 2: I look at like even one personal story at the 315 00:14:46,359 --> 00:14:49,419 Speaker 2: beginning of my career, I had very, very little confidence 316 00:14:49,429 --> 00:14:52,179 Speaker 2: in myself and my abilities and what I could do. 317 00:14:52,309 --> 00:14:54,039 Speaker 2: And I had one boss who could actually see a 318 00:14:54,049 --> 00:14:55,090 Speaker 2: lot of potential in me 319 00:14:55,419 --> 00:14:57,059 Speaker 2: and the way he managed it, I think is a 320 00:14:57,070 --> 00:14:59,469 Speaker 2: great example for tips in terms of how leaders can 321 00:14:59,479 --> 00:15:02,599 Speaker 2: also learn how to navigate through it. He acknowledged it. 322 00:15:02,799 --> 00:15:06,979 Speaker 2: He acknowledged similar to your boss that, hey, I understand 323 00:15:06,989 --> 00:15:08,919 Speaker 2: that you're hesitant, but I'm here to help you. I'm 324 00:15:08,929 --> 00:15:12,359 Speaker 2: here to guide you. He was able to also make 325 00:15:12,369 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: the road map simple enough for me to actually execute 326 00:15:15,330 --> 00:15:18,599 Speaker 2: on because when you're an imposter complex, you're more in 327 00:15:18,609 --> 00:15:21,799 Speaker 2: your head, you're focusing more on what's wrong with me. 328 00:15:21,809 --> 00:15:23,659 Speaker 2: Who am I? Why should I be there? 329 00:15:23,909 --> 00:15:27,020 Speaker 2: So the productivity actually is quite low because it's not 330 00:15:27,030 --> 00:15:28,690 Speaker 2: like the person has no time. It's just that they're 331 00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 2: in their head. So by acknowledging that's the first step. 332 00:15:31,849 --> 00:15:35,909 Speaker 2: And then by making into a small map where it's 333 00:15:35,919 --> 00:15:41,169 Speaker 2: clear concrete winds, it starts to build the belief that actually, hey, 334 00:15:41,179 --> 00:15:44,929 Speaker 2: I can do this. Hey, I'm getting this and then 335 00:15:44,940 --> 00:15:47,739 Speaker 2: to eventually add on more things. And then throughout it 336 00:15:47,750 --> 00:15:48,289 Speaker 2: all to give 337 00:15:48,580 --> 00:15:52,299 Speaker 2: consistent feedback on, not just what's bad that's not going 338 00:15:52,309 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: to help. Some of the post are complex, but more 339 00:15:54,330 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 2: about what did you do well, and how could you 340 00:15:56,650 --> 00:16:00,309 Speaker 2: improve and does it serve you what you're doing right now? 341 00:16:00,919 --> 00:16:03,890 Speaker 2: And then finally, the fourth thing is really about having 342 00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:06,359 Speaker 2: an environment where you have people around you, whether it's 343 00:16:06,369 --> 00:16:10,659 Speaker 2: mentors or peers who are encouraging for you. Because sometimes 344 00:16:10,669 --> 00:16:12,739 Speaker 2: we forget I have people that I go to them. 345 00:16:12,750 --> 00:16:13,159 Speaker 2: I go to 346 00:16:13,419 --> 00:16:15,140 Speaker 2: every time I have a freak out moment, I call 347 00:16:15,150 --> 00:16:17,169 Speaker 2: them and then they give me the comment and I 348 00:16:17,179 --> 00:16:19,390 Speaker 2: started laughing and the whole idea is to just break 349 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,590 Speaker 2: that pattern and to make you realize that, hey, OK, 350 00:16:22,599 --> 00:16:26,109 Speaker 2: it's not my first rodeo and it's OK, how can 351 00:16:26,119 --> 00:16:28,039 Speaker 2: we fix it and so forth? So I think those 352 00:16:28,049 --> 00:16:30,409 Speaker 2: are the easy tips around it and it really comes 353 00:16:30,419 --> 00:16:33,020 Speaker 2: with having the leaders there. But then the second thing 354 00:16:33,030 --> 00:16:35,299 Speaker 2: is having the ability to also ask for that kind 355 00:16:35,309 --> 00:16:37,390 Speaker 2: of help as well because it's a two way street. 356 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:37,849 Speaker 2: It's not just a guy. 357 00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 2: You must be a great leader. It's just like I 358 00:16:39,849 --> 00:16:42,940 Speaker 2: must also ask, hey, I'm feeling uncomfortable, I need some 359 00:16:42,950 --> 00:16:44,099 Speaker 2: support and so forth. 360 00:16:44,469 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: The individual has to be mindful of what's going on 361 00:16:47,450 --> 00:16:49,859 Speaker 1: in their head. They have to be objective and they 362 00:16:49,869 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: also need the space and resource from people to avail 363 00:16:53,330 --> 00:16:55,989 Speaker 1: themselves to listen and to hear and to encourage and 364 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: not let this perpetuate further. So, wow, this is like 365 00:16:58,770 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: there's much that we can do to address this imposter syndrome. 366 00:17:01,530 --> 00:17:02,460 Speaker 1: You don't have to just to 367 00:17:02,750 --> 00:17:05,020 Speaker 1: put up with it and just to live past because 368 00:17:05,030 --> 00:17:07,010 Speaker 1: that's why I guess most people do and they debate 369 00:17:07,020 --> 00:17:09,169 Speaker 1: for the episode to be over and then it's like 370 00:17:09,180 --> 00:17:10,689 Speaker 1: coming again the next time, you 371 00:17:10,699 --> 00:17:12,459 Speaker 2: know, and I think the part that people don't realize 372 00:17:12,469 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 2: is after you go through this extreme fear, you don't 373 00:17:15,369 --> 00:17:17,968 Speaker 2: just get to confidence. What happens next is you go 374 00:17:17,979 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: through confusion because you're going through this place where you're 375 00:17:21,050 --> 00:17:25,250 Speaker 2: questioning my mental model of solving this problem. Is it correct? 376 00:17:25,719 --> 00:17:26,569 Speaker 2: And it isn't. 377 00:17:26,692 --> 00:17:27,993 Speaker 2: And you have to sit a little bit in the 378 00:17:28,003 --> 00:17:30,473 Speaker 2: discomfort until you get to this place of like here's 379 00:17:30,483 --> 00:17:33,192 Speaker 2: a structure and how to fulfill my task. And then 380 00:17:33,203 --> 00:17:35,282 Speaker 2: I can get to confident and master it. But you 381 00:17:35,292 --> 00:17:38,003 Speaker 2: need to go through the fear component and that self doubt. 382 00:17:38,012 --> 00:17:40,391 Speaker 2: And then you go through the component of being in 383 00:17:40,402 --> 00:17:44,042 Speaker 2: pure confusion because what's happening at that point is you're 384 00:17:44,052 --> 00:17:47,152 Speaker 2: trusting your intuition, but your intuition hasn't been trained yet. 385 00:17:47,561 --> 00:17:49,311 Speaker 2: I can't drive a car without learning how to drive 386 00:17:49,321 --> 00:17:50,552 Speaker 2: a car. I don't know the science 387 00:17:50,744 --> 00:17:53,086 Speaker 2: behind it. I did that once did not work out 388 00:17:53,095 --> 00:17:55,505 Speaker 2: very well. I ended up in a ditch. It's the 389 00:17:55,515 --> 00:17:58,645 Speaker 2: same thing with our lives unless we learn some things 390 00:17:58,656 --> 00:18:00,385 Speaker 2: our intuition is going to not actually serve us at 391 00:18:00,395 --> 00:18:00,696 Speaker 2: all 392 00:18:01,465 --> 00:18:03,816 Speaker 1: and it's ok to get your car in a ditch sometimes. Right? 393 00:18:04,796 --> 00:18:08,156 Speaker 1: Because the process, the growth mindset. How do you get 394 00:18:08,176 --> 00:18:10,426 Speaker 1: the car out of the, who's going to help you? 395 00:18:10,446 --> 00:18:11,744 Speaker 1: What are you going to do? Make a phone call 396 00:18:11,755 --> 00:18:13,494 Speaker 1: to your mentor? Well, I got to my ditch. You know, 397 00:18:13,505 --> 00:18:14,446 Speaker 1: what do I do now? 398 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,239 Speaker 1: Not asking for? Help but help. 399 00:18:19,479 --> 00:18:21,619 Speaker 1: Well, I've got a bonus question. Actually, it's a cheeky 400 00:18:21,630 --> 00:18:24,109 Speaker 1: one because we keep talking about people who feel that 401 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,810 Speaker 1: they are not good enough. But then there are some 402 00:18:26,819 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: people among us who feel that they are very good 403 00:18:30,050 --> 00:18:33,790 Speaker 1: and they have no problems with thinking that they are 404 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,810 Speaker 1: the savior to the team. So how do you deal 405 00:18:36,819 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: with people who are like that? They don't have the 406 00:18:39,010 --> 00:18:39,699 Speaker 1: imposter syndrome, 407 00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 1: but honestly, they can't actually do the job. 408 00:18:41,930 --> 00:18:44,689 Speaker 2: I think it's about growing that self awareness. And I 409 00:18:44,699 --> 00:18:46,619 Speaker 2: think at every chapter of our career, we're going to 410 00:18:46,630 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: meet new devils and we need to be aware that 411 00:18:49,770 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 2: new level, new devil in terms of our learning and 412 00:18:52,010 --> 00:18:55,790 Speaker 2: our growth. So someone like that oftentimes they are like 413 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 2: that because socially they've learned to be like that. Ok. 414 00:18:59,689 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 2: And that can 415 00:19:00,229 --> 00:19:02,270 Speaker 2: come from, for example, if you grew up playing a 416 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,969 Speaker 2: lot of sports, you might think that you're better than 417 00:19:04,979 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 2: you actually are. And then what happens, you keep on 418 00:19:07,930 --> 00:19:10,099 Speaker 2: doing it and at one point you actually deal with 419 00:19:10,109 --> 00:19:13,170 Speaker 2: situation where you discover, I don't know what I'm doing. Oh. 420 00:19:13,199 --> 00:19:15,290 Speaker 1: So eventually they'll get to a point where they realize 421 00:19:15,300 --> 00:19:17,129 Speaker 1: they don't have the skills to match up to that 422 00:19:17,319 --> 00:19:19,448 Speaker 2: because at one point you start to realize, oh, it 423 00:19:19,459 --> 00:19:20,589 Speaker 2: looks like with learning 424 00:19:20,930 --> 00:19:22,750 Speaker 2: anything that you learn. And I love to learn something 425 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,430 Speaker 2: new every year to experience that skill is like, oh, 426 00:19:25,439 --> 00:19:29,109 Speaker 2: that's so basic. That's so simple. And then you do 427 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,939 Speaker 2: it and it's not basic at all. So at one point, 428 00:19:31,949 --> 00:19:35,010 Speaker 2: people have to experience that. And often times there's also 429 00:19:35,020 --> 00:19:37,910 Speaker 2: people who also experience impostor complex, but they just haven't 430 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,310 Speaker 2: maybe verbalized it yet because they're still a little bit 431 00:19:40,319 --> 00:19:41,790 Speaker 2: not aware of themselves. It 432 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:42,540 Speaker 1: could be a mu 433 00:19:43,005 --> 00:19:46,254 Speaker 1: thing that they are doing. So these people, they probably 434 00:19:46,265 --> 00:19:49,145 Speaker 1: have impostor syndrome just that they are really good at hiding. 435 00:19:49,336 --> 00:19:50,725 Speaker 1: They're really good at covering. They 436 00:19:50,796 --> 00:19:52,686 Speaker 2: haven't yet, they haven't experienced it yet. 437 00:19:54,234 --> 00:19:56,515 Speaker 1: You know, my clients, they resonate a lot of this 438 00:19:56,526 --> 00:19:58,345 Speaker 1: topic as well. So I'm really glad we did this 439 00:19:58,566 --> 00:20:01,605 Speaker 1: and really one important thing that I think Yasmin has 440 00:20:01,615 --> 00:20:04,745 Speaker 1: reminded all of us for me, especially the takeaway that 441 00:20:04,842 --> 00:20:07,831 Speaker 1: new level, new level, we were always going to be 442 00:20:07,842 --> 00:20:11,521 Speaker 1: experiencing this. It's not something that will go away. But 443 00:20:11,531 --> 00:20:13,861 Speaker 1: if today we are conscious enough and aware enough of 444 00:20:13,871 --> 00:20:15,861 Speaker 1: what's going on in our minds. If we have the 445 00:20:15,871 --> 00:20:19,102 Speaker 1: support networks, then it becomes like a muscle that you 446 00:20:19,112 --> 00:20:22,732 Speaker 1: can exercise regularly and so we can deal with that 447 00:20:22,741 --> 00:20:25,802 Speaker 1: at a new level later on. Right. Yeah. So for 448 00:20:25,811 --> 00:20:29,202 Speaker 1: me personally, I have learned to use that to motivate me. 449 00:20:29,212 --> 00:20:31,501 Speaker 1: So when that little voice comes into my head 450 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,699 Speaker 1: earlier on, it would cripple me. Now, I would say, OK, 451 00:20:35,709 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 1: I don't know everything, but I'm gonna try, I'm gonna 452 00:20:38,449 --> 00:20:41,180 Speaker 1: learn and in that process, I learned how to play 453 00:20:41,189 --> 00:20:43,859 Speaker 1: to my strengths. I start with that first and then 454 00:20:43,869 --> 00:20:46,949 Speaker 1: the rest can come with that growth curve that I 455 00:20:46,959 --> 00:20:49,500 Speaker 1: am put on. So thank you so much Yasmin for 456 00:20:49,510 --> 00:20:51,659 Speaker 1: sharing your thoughts on this and really also giving us 457 00:20:51,670 --> 00:20:55,130 Speaker 1: tips on how to manage it when the impostor syndrome 458 00:20:55,140 --> 00:20:55,839 Speaker 1: steps in. Thank 459 00:20:55,849 --> 00:20:57,819 Speaker 2: you. No worries. Thank you for having me. 460 00:21:02,219 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: We're back with our ask me anything segment and today's 461 00:21:06,130 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: question was sent to our producer, 462 00:21:08,939 --> 00:21:11,390 Speaker 1: I'm going to read it. It says I have a 463 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,930 Speaker 1: coworker who is not pulling her weight and has absolutely 464 00:21:14,939 --> 00:21:19,369 Speaker 1: no interest in doing her job. Despite interventions from the team, 465 00:21:19,579 --> 00:21:22,500 Speaker 1: our boss is waiting for her to resign instead of 466 00:21:22,510 --> 00:21:25,500 Speaker 1: letting her go as a result, my team and I 467 00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:29,149 Speaker 1: are bearing the brunt of it. What should I do? OK. Cheol, 468 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,239 Speaker 1: I don't get it. Why are bosses waiting for poor 469 00:21:32,250 --> 00:21:35,569 Speaker 1: performers to resign instead of firing them? I have the 470 00:21:35,579 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: same question in my mind as well, 471 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,849 Speaker 1: right? But offhand, if I were to imagine what is 472 00:21:40,859 --> 00:21:42,949 Speaker 1: really happening. There could be a few reasons for this. 473 00:21:42,959 --> 00:21:44,909 Speaker 1: The first one is perhaps the boss might be waiting 474 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: for the employee to turn around at work, maybe still 475 00:21:48,689 --> 00:21:52,459 Speaker 1: being hopeful about something being done. That's one, the second 476 00:21:52,469 --> 00:21:54,448 Speaker 1: reason could be the employee could be in a grace 477 00:21:54,459 --> 00:21:59,089 Speaker 1: period currently going through some performance improvement program. But sometimes 478 00:21:59,099 --> 00:22:01,410 Speaker 1: these things are not made known to the rest of 479 00:22:01,420 --> 00:22:04,339 Speaker 1: the teams. So this is like a grace period for 480 00:22:04,349 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: them to improve. It could also be that grace period 481 00:22:07,810 --> 00:22:07,929 Speaker 1: for 482 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,659 Speaker 1: them to find a job because sometimes we often don't 483 00:22:10,670 --> 00:22:12,718 Speaker 1: want to leave a job without having another job. So 484 00:22:12,729 --> 00:22:14,339 Speaker 1: maybe this person is in the midst of a job 485 00:22:14,349 --> 00:22:17,780 Speaker 1: search already, right? And then their heart is not in 486 00:22:17,790 --> 00:22:21,270 Speaker 1: the current work. So the mood so they're still not performing, 487 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,050 Speaker 1: but they are trying their best to look for something 488 00:22:23,060 --> 00:22:26,698 Speaker 1: else outside. And maybe the last one is perhaps the 489 00:22:26,709 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: boss is unsure how to deal with this, how to 490 00:22:29,569 --> 00:22:31,099 Speaker 1: have that difficult conversation 491 00:22:31,569 --> 00:22:34,609 Speaker 1: about performance to let this person go, never done it before, 492 00:22:34,619 --> 00:22:36,780 Speaker 1: especially if the boss is a new manager. Well, I'll 493 00:22:36,790 --> 00:22:40,438 Speaker 1: propose 1/4 1 actually that maybe some bosses don't want 494 00:22:40,449 --> 00:22:42,260 Speaker 1: to fire because they are afraid that they won't be 495 00:22:42,270 --> 00:22:44,900 Speaker 1: able to bring back the head count as quickly as 496 00:22:44,910 --> 00:22:47,260 Speaker 1: they want to. So in that sense, they rather have 497 00:22:47,339 --> 00:22:50,140 Speaker 1: a living breathing thing in their team. 498 00:22:50,540 --> 00:22:53,179 Speaker 1: At least you know, do the admin, the menial work 499 00:22:53,239 --> 00:22:56,079 Speaker 1: then trying to go and find somebody else could be. Yeah. 500 00:22:56,089 --> 00:22:59,579 Speaker 1: And in that situation, everybody suffers. Exactly. So everyone's waiting 501 00:22:59,589 --> 00:23:02,339 Speaker 1: for this person to leave the team according to you know, 502 00:23:02,349 --> 00:23:05,319 Speaker 1: the person who wrote in because interventions don't work. So 503 00:23:05,329 --> 00:23:08,468 Speaker 1: interventions have already been done. What's your advice? 504 00:23:09,060 --> 00:23:11,599 Speaker 1: So I think as the other employee looking at the 505 00:23:11,609 --> 00:23:14,839 Speaker 1: situation of this poor performer and the boss, I think 506 00:23:14,849 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: for this employee maybe try not to judge first. OK, 507 00:23:17,650 --> 00:23:19,750 Speaker 1: like I mentioned earlier, there could be reasons beyond our 508 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:24,060 Speaker 1: understanding for the poor performance, not judging the employee perhaps 509 00:23:24,069 --> 00:23:28,010 Speaker 1: allows us to focus more of our energies on our work, right? 510 00:23:28,020 --> 00:23:30,569 Speaker 1: Because sometimes when we talk about how this person is 511 00:23:30,579 --> 00:23:31,530 Speaker 1: like not pulling their weight, 512 00:23:31,896 --> 00:23:34,156 Speaker 1: it really rounds you up and it takes off, you know, 513 00:23:34,166 --> 00:23:37,246 Speaker 1: your own productivity. So I think this is one and 514 00:23:37,256 --> 00:23:38,886 Speaker 1: of course, the second thing is if there is a 515 00:23:38,896 --> 00:23:43,036 Speaker 1: good open relationship between you and the underperform employee, maybe 516 00:23:43,046 --> 00:23:45,765 Speaker 1: you can seek to understand what is happening, what is happening, 517 00:23:45,776 --> 00:23:48,906 Speaker 1: the employee, what's happening at work, more understanding can bring 518 00:23:48,916 --> 00:23:51,477 Speaker 1: about more empathy. So kind of take them out for 519 00:23:51,487 --> 00:23:54,077 Speaker 1: coffee or meal and say is there anything 520 00:23:54,173 --> 00:23:56,624 Speaker 1: that's happening in your life? So not in a work 521 00:23:56,634 --> 00:23:59,313 Speaker 1: setting and use a more social setting to try and 522 00:23:59,323 --> 00:24:01,912 Speaker 1: tease a little bit out. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we 523 00:24:01,923 --> 00:24:03,792 Speaker 1: don't have to wait for our bosses to do that. 524 00:24:03,894 --> 00:24:05,644 Speaker 1: You know, we can do that as human beings, as 525 00:24:05,654 --> 00:24:08,144 Speaker 1: colleagues just by saying that, hey, I noticed that you 526 00:24:08,154 --> 00:24:11,244 Speaker 1: don't look really happy these days is everything ok? But 527 00:24:11,254 --> 00:24:13,303 Speaker 1: I think at that stage, you are already so upset 528 00:24:13,313 --> 00:24:16,634 Speaker 1: with that person because you're probably taking a bit more work, right? 529 00:24:16,730 --> 00:24:19,461 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So if that's not possible and that person's 530 00:24:19,470 --> 00:24:21,781 Speaker 1: performance is really affecting you when you are working with 531 00:24:21,791 --> 00:24:24,711 Speaker 1: the employee, try to have some clarity on the roles 532 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,211 Speaker 1: and the expectations, seek some agreement on the work deliverables 533 00:24:28,220 --> 00:24:32,100 Speaker 1: and expectations, maybe in writing or even having that conversation 534 00:24:32,161 --> 00:24:34,239 Speaker 1: to really agree. OK. What is the part that you 535 00:24:34,250 --> 00:24:36,230 Speaker 1: can do? Ok. And you have to really do it 536 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,311 Speaker 1: by this particular date. So I think having that clear 537 00:24:38,321 --> 00:24:39,190 Speaker 1: expectations 538 00:24:39,599 --> 00:24:42,300 Speaker 1: and clarity is important and of course to have that 539 00:24:42,310 --> 00:24:44,739 Speaker 1: discussion with your boss about the impact on the team. 540 00:24:44,750 --> 00:24:47,010 Speaker 1: So when you have your own time with the boss, 541 00:24:47,069 --> 00:24:50,619 Speaker 1: talk about maybe perhaps possible solutions to limit the impact 542 00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:53,550 Speaker 1: because maybe your boss doesn't know what's happening, knows about 543 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: the poor performance, but doesn't know the impact of the 544 00:24:55,569 --> 00:25:00,030 Speaker 1: poor performance, the operations. So discussing possible solutions to limit 545 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,989 Speaker 1: the impact, perhaps this person should be reassigned to a 546 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,579 Speaker 1: role that's less time pressing less urgent 547 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,510 Speaker 1: so that the person can their space while you can 548 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,849 Speaker 1: focus on your work. Yeah, I guess oftentimes not everybody 549 00:25:12,859 --> 00:25:15,030 Speaker 1: wants to be a poor performer, like you say, they 550 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,369 Speaker 1: could have many reasons, things that happen at home, they 551 00:25:18,380 --> 00:25:21,589 Speaker 1: could be facing also mental health issue and it's a 552 00:25:21,599 --> 00:25:24,349 Speaker 1: bit hard for them to get out of this rut. 553 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 1: But I think as the person who has to pick 554 00:25:26,890 --> 00:25:27,540 Speaker 1: up the slack, 555 00:25:27,849 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 1: it's important to hold that boundary because I think oftentimes 556 00:25:31,410 --> 00:25:34,449 Speaker 1: we try and be a bit too nice and then 557 00:25:34,459 --> 00:25:38,109 Speaker 1: that eventually starts wearing us out as well. Yes, I 558 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,329 Speaker 1: think it's important to remember that the person if they 559 00:25:41,339 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 1: are under performing, I mean, staying on in a job 560 00:25:43,449 --> 00:25:45,790 Speaker 1: is really difficult for them. You know, they are not 561 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,060 Speaker 1: enjoying what they're doing or maybe there's other things that 562 00:25:48,069 --> 00:25:49,849 Speaker 1: are going on in their life. So it's not easy 563 00:25:49,859 --> 00:25:50,229 Speaker 1: for them. 564 00:25:50,459 --> 00:25:52,790 Speaker 1: But at the same time, if today these conversations can 565 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,140 Speaker 1: help them to move on in a way that they 566 00:25:55,150 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: feel comfortable. I think that could work out for everybody. 567 00:25:58,329 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: So many good tips. I love it. Well, we hope 568 00:26:01,170 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: you found this conversation helpful to you. Let us know 569 00:26:04,170 --> 00:26:06,989 Speaker 1: if you have any feedback again. We are on our 570 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: usual CN a social channels or you can 571 00:26:10,104 --> 00:26:13,435 Speaker 1: leave a comment on Spotify. Remember to send us your 572 00:26:13,444 --> 00:26:16,625 Speaker 1: burning questions for Gerald if you found it helpful because 573 00:26:16,635 --> 00:26:19,555 Speaker 1: I did and I will help you ask them the 574 00:26:19,564 --> 00:26:22,814 Speaker 1: team behind the work it podcast is Christina Robert Joan 575 00:26:22,915 --> 00:26:27,214 Speaker 1: Chan Jaini Johari and Sye Wind. This is Tiffany and 576 00:26:27,224 --> 00:26:29,645 Speaker 1: I'm Gerald. Have a good work week ahead.