WEBVTT - Coping with retrenchment when a baby is on the way 0:00:03.470 --> 0:00:05.699 You're listening to a CNA podcast. 0:00:10.289 --> 0:00:13.529 Hi, it's Tiffany and Gerald and this is the new 0:00:13.529 --> 0:00:16.719 season of the Work It podcast. It's the 4th season 0:00:16.719 --> 0:00:19.969 and we promise to bring you more stories, tips and 0:00:19.969 --> 0:00:23.489 advice on how you can navigate your work life. Now, Gerald, 0:00:23.530 --> 0:00:25.829 what has been the highlight for you so far? Wow, 0:00:25.930 --> 0:00:28.159 the time really flew by so fast, then the new season, 0:00:28.209 --> 0:00:30.319 I didn't even realize it was one full season gone. 0:00:31.139 --> 0:00:33.000 But I think every time we had a guest on, 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:35.000 I think I learned a lot from them. It's like 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:38.080 I was learning and developing myself as well as we 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:39.479 spoke to them, whether on the show or even off 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.720 the show, right? One particular thing that I remember from 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.759 the last season was how I personally grew, right, doing 0:00:45.759 --> 0:00:48.360 this whole podcast was a little bit not so familiar 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:50.639 for me at the beginning, but I'm so glad that 0:00:50.639 --> 0:00:53.409 I think I've got a better sense of my feet. Yeah, 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:55.880 that's almost like a pivot for you, right? Something different. 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:58.860 You upskilled. Yeah, I guess I learned a lot about 0:00:58.860 --> 0:01:00.439 myself as well in the process and this. 0:01:00.529 --> 0:01:02.720 New season I'm so excited because I get to do 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:05.959 it again. Yeah, one thing that I really liked so 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:08.080 far that we have really tried to do more of 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:11.080 in the last season is to invite people onto our 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:13.559 show to talk about some of the pivots that they 0:01:13.559 --> 0:01:17.040 have done in their lives. We had that flight attendant 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:19.639 who came on, Jane, and she spoke about how she 0:01:19.639 --> 0:01:23.319 did this hard pivot towards becoming a software engineer. Yeah, 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:25.849 I remember when she was saying that when she was 0:01:25.849 --> 0:01:28.199 waiting to be on the plane again, she would quote 0:01:28.199 --> 0:01:28.970 right in the hotel room. 0:01:30.169 --> 0:01:31.279 And then we were just like, I thought you would 0:01:31.279 --> 0:01:33.319 just want to go and see the world, you know, 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:36.279 but she was there upgrading her skills, learning some coding 0:01:36.279 --> 0:01:38.268 on her own. That's just amazing. These stories are amazing, 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:40.720 so precious, right? So it's along that line, right? We 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:42.720 want to carry on these stories. It's not just the 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:44.720 victories that we want to talk about. We also want 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.169 to talk about people who didn't have an easy time 0:01:47.169 --> 0:01:49.639 in their career and that they had to face the 0:01:49.639 --> 0:01:52.750 challenges head on, taking the challenges one step at a time. 0:01:52.919 --> 0:01:55.360 So I think one biggest challenge that we've always talked 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:57.599 about was when people suddenly get their jobs taken away 0:01:57.599 --> 0:01:59.389 from them, when they get retrenched and. 0:01:59.809 --> 0:02:02.000 What makes it worse is like you get retrenched with 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:04.080 many other things happening in your life. We always say 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:06.440 that there's no good time to be retrenched, but what 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.919 happens when you're told to leave your job at the 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.788 same time you're having a new kid, your first kid, 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:14.149 and at the same time you're having your first house. 0:02:14.869 --> 0:02:17.350 Not an easy situation. I just imagine how it's like. 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:19.559 So we have someone here with us today. We have 0:02:19.559 --> 0:02:21.669 Luke Jiao, he's here to share his story with us. 0:02:21.679 --> 0:02:24.960 So welcome. Hello. I want to ask, you were retrenched 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:28.600 last October, right, after working for an MNC for about 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:29.270 a year. 0:02:29.910 --> 0:02:32.910 Did you have any inkling that your name was going 0:02:32.910 --> 0:02:35.770 to be on the list? Not at all, because the 0:02:35.770 --> 0:02:39.110 company just announced a plan to build a billion dollar 0:02:39.110 --> 0:02:43.389 factory in Singapore, and this was in 2021. Yeah, and 0:02:43.389 --> 0:02:45.309 it was in progress and I have news that 0:02:45.365 --> 0:02:48.865 The plant was purchased and construction was ongoing. So there 0:02:48.865 --> 0:02:51.945 was a sense of excitement obviously in the company, right? 0:02:52.115 --> 0:02:54.854 So walk us through how was the news told to you. 0:02:54.945 --> 0:02:58.095 I think I was blessed to have an understanding supervisor. 0:02:58.375 --> 0:03:00.894 So a month before the news was dropped. 0:03:01.389 --> 0:03:05.070 My supervisor was telling us the team that try to 0:03:05.070 --> 0:03:08.429 do our best to look for other opportunities soon. So 0:03:08.429 --> 0:03:10.600 there was a preampt to what we are going to 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:12.309 go through at that point. But it must have been 0:03:12.309 --> 0:03:15.110 very confusing for you, right, because you guys saw that 0:03:15.110 --> 0:03:16.309 the news about the village. 0:03:16.589 --> 0:03:20.270 Dollar factory coming and then suddenly your supervisor came and said, Guys, 0:03:20.350 --> 0:03:22.669 I think you all should start looking for options. I mean, 0:03:22.750 --> 0:03:25.509 at the start, was there a lot of confusion even 0:03:25.508 --> 0:03:29.429 among your team? Yes, there was. People were scrambling, people 0:03:29.429 --> 0:03:31.380 thought that my supervisor was joking. 0:03:32.029 --> 0:03:35.440 And everyone I think was in a denial about what 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:38.800 might happen to them. So it was painful, to say 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.160 the least. And I think for some of us it 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:45.029 was dreadful because they were older than I. I'm 35, 0:03:45.119 --> 0:03:47.440 but some of them were 40s, some of them were 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:50.279 near retirement age. So when you got the news, where 0:03:50.279 --> 0:03:52.320 were you at that stage of life, like what were 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.839 you expecting to do? Where were you at? OK, so 0:03:55.839 --> 0:03:59.389 this company came along with pretty good benefits, better than 0:03:59.389 --> 0:04:01.320 most Singapore's jobs from what I know. 0:04:01.740 --> 0:04:03.949 And I think because of this, my wife and I, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.149 we were confident to have a new kid. We were 0:04:06.149 --> 0:04:10.190 confident to invest in a car for the kid, and 0:04:10.190 --> 0:04:12.169 we had our new house, we moved in in September 0:04:12.169 --> 0:04:14.270 last year. So there were a lot of things that 0:04:14.270 --> 0:04:17.029 we were prepared to invest in to pay for. So 0:04:17.029 --> 0:04:18.789 when the news came and then you had all these 0:04:18.790 --> 0:04:19.839 things with a new car. 0:04:20.299 --> 0:04:22.339 kid coming along the way, a house, what were you 0:04:22.339 --> 0:04:25.618 the most worried about? I think the most stressful memory 0:04:25.619 --> 0:04:28.219 that I had after the retrenchment was I was scared 0:04:28.220 --> 0:04:30.149 that my kid was going to be born with some complications. 0:04:31.178 --> 0:04:34.459 Then there will be financial stress, there will be mental 0:04:34.459 --> 0:04:37.420 and spiritual stress. It's not easy having to go through 0:04:37.420 --> 0:04:39.899 all these changes at the same time. What was the 0:04:39.899 --> 0:04:41.899 first thing that you and your wife decided to do? 0:04:42.019 --> 0:04:44.899 Cut down on lifestyle spending, such as like what kind 0:04:44.899 --> 0:04:48.059 of lifestyle? Like we used to go to sushi roll, 0:04:48.619 --> 0:04:49.540 but we go to sushi. 0:04:50.940 --> 0:04:53.832 Or sometimes like fair price sushi is good enough for us. 0:04:54.022 --> 0:04:56.541 I think people will be surprised to find out how 0:04:56.541 --> 0:04:59.772 much they can accept when they are not able to 0:04:59.772 --> 0:05:02.261 afford more things in their life. Sounds like a very 0:05:02.261 --> 0:05:04.502 big adjustment in terms of lifestyle, in terms of what 0:05:04.502 --> 0:05:06.701 you're used to having, what you're used to eating or 0:05:06.701 --> 0:05:09.321 doing as well. I mean, yes and no because he 0:05:09.321 --> 0:05:11.701 didn't exactly cut out sushi from his life. If we 0:05:11.701 --> 0:05:14.152 use that as an example, but he just found cheaper 0:05:14.152 --> 0:05:17.441 alternatives so they could still enjoy what they used to enjoy. 0:05:17.462 --> 0:05:19.022 It's just that maybe it's 0:05:19.074 --> 0:05:21.984 Not the premium level that we would be used to 0:05:21.984 --> 0:05:24.424 or we would be going for, but it doesn't mean 0:05:24.424 --> 0:05:27.063 that it's terrible, right? So we have even tried to 0:05:27.063 --> 0:05:31.022 replicate some recipe that we ate at home. So it's 0:05:31.023 --> 0:05:33.463 cheaper and lasts longer because you can cook all the 0:05:33.463 --> 0:05:37.063 way for lunch and dinner. It's a lot of financial considerations, 0:05:37.264 --> 0:05:39.894 mainly in terms of all the adjustments. So when this 0:05:39.894 --> 0:05:43.743 retrenchment happened, financially, how did you like work around the figures? 0:05:43.824 --> 0:05:46.664 How did you know what to spend on? Did you 0:05:46.664 --> 0:05:48.424 have like savings to tide you over this? 0:05:48.536 --> 0:05:50.635 Period. Yes, we did. My wife and I, we both 0:05:50.635 --> 0:05:53.865 had about 3 or 4 months of emergency savings that 0:05:53.865 --> 0:05:56.066 right now I have tapped into almost half of it 0:05:56.065 --> 0:05:58.665 now really, but my wife still continue to build upon 0:05:58.665 --> 0:06:03.036 her emergency savings, which was good and some of the 0:06:03.036 --> 0:06:06.376 changes I did was to use less aircon, try to 0:06:06.376 --> 0:06:11.466 recycle some water and instead of using full premium tissue 0:06:11.466 --> 0:06:14.305 on the table, I used toilet paper instead. So no 0:06:14.305 --> 0:06:17.785 longer reply like goodbye 3, yeah. 0:06:18.209 --> 0:06:20.928 And I think the biggest change would be the diet, 0:06:21.269 --> 0:06:24.308 switching a lot from eating outside to eating at home 0:06:24.309 --> 0:06:27.619 and going to the wet markets. But having a kid coming, 0:06:27.779 --> 0:06:31.289 that's actually quite a costly, I would say investment, right? 0:06:31.369 --> 0:06:33.578 And there's certain things that you cannot scream on. 0:06:33.940 --> 0:06:36.950 You still need your diapers or I mean if you are, yeah, 0:06:37.070 --> 0:06:39.109 if you are going into using formula milk, you still 0:06:39.109 --> 0:06:41.809 need all of that, right? You need clothes, you need 0:06:41.809 --> 0:06:43.510 to also make sure that you are cleaning the clothes, 0:06:43.549 --> 0:06:46.829 there's a lot of cleaning, a lot of washing, right? 0:06:46.910 --> 0:06:49.109 And then you also have your car. You were saying 0:06:49.109 --> 0:06:50.660 that you also had a car. Did you have to 0:06:51.029 --> 0:06:53.750 say goodbye to a cow? Our projection was that for 0:06:53.750 --> 0:06:56.029 the next 6 months after my retrenchment, I could still 0:06:56.029 --> 0:06:59.029 afford a car stably. I think what Luke did really 0:06:59.029 --> 0:07:00.010 well was to plan. 0:07:00.390 --> 0:07:03.149 I think he planned with his wife emergency savings for 0:07:03.149 --> 0:07:05.890 rainy days like this. And then when the day came, 0:07:06.140 --> 0:07:08.738 he started to adjust the lifestyle a bit stretching the 0:07:08.738 --> 0:07:11.299 dollar so that he can sustain a bit longer. Did 0:07:11.299 --> 0:07:13.709 the company provide any form of help for you? Any 0:07:13.709 --> 0:07:18.100 other than the normal packages, they did give me a 0:07:18.100 --> 0:07:20.380 little more because I told them my kid was going 0:07:20.380 --> 0:07:22.820 to be born. So I'm supposed to take the parental 0:07:22.820 --> 0:07:25.459 leave that is mandated by the government, so they give 0:07:25.459 --> 0:07:26.570 the extra 2 weeks. 0:07:27.170 --> 0:07:30.760 Yeah, so on top of your retrenchment. OK, so that's 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.320 actually a very good tip. Have a chat with HR 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.559 or your supervisor to see where you are, right, at 0:07:36.559 --> 0:07:38.679 that point of your life and how you can ask 0:07:38.679 --> 0:07:41.239 for more to take through a difficult period. We had 0:07:41.239 --> 0:07:43.390 one episode on the last season where we talked about 0:07:43.390 --> 0:07:45.880 negotiating the packages and I guess it says something to 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:48.040 that extent as well, which is to look at the 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.480 package and then start to negotiate if you can. So 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:52.160 I'm glad you did that. Was that the only thing 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:53.920 you negotiated for? I think that's the only thing. 0:07:54.010 --> 0:07:56.679 I can negotiate for, there's not much else. I think 0:07:56.679 --> 0:07:59.679 all my lists were in cash and all my benefits 0:07:59.679 --> 0:08:02.279 were not claw back. Yeah, all the flexi benefits will 0:08:02.279 --> 0:08:04.540 not claw back, which I thought was pretty decent of them. 0:08:05.359 --> 0:08:07.920 And also it's very brave of your supervisor to actually 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:10.480 give you guys a heads up. We had a previous 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.160 episode about early signs that the company is retrenching. 0:08:13.510 --> 0:08:16.369 And when we spoke to our guest, he was also 0:08:16.369 --> 0:08:19.089 saying that it's good for supervisors to give people a 0:08:19.089 --> 0:08:21.609 heads up, but also their hands are tied because they 0:08:21.609 --> 0:08:24.929 may not be able to give as much information as 0:08:24.929 --> 0:08:27.850 they would like without causing mass panic, correct? So was 0:08:27.850 --> 0:08:30.760 that mass panic in the company at that point of time? 0:08:30.890 --> 0:08:35.010 From what I've seen and heard during that retrenchment, almost 90+% 0:08:35.010 --> 0:08:35.349 of us 0:08:35.469 --> 0:08:37.750 Let go from a department and I think the people 0:08:37.750 --> 0:08:41.500 were well prepared. Yeah, so I believe that my supervisor 0:08:41.500 --> 0:08:45.699 got the green light to share from his boss. So 0:08:45.869 --> 0:08:48.239 I think it's pretty decent of them to give a 0:08:48.239 --> 0:08:51.549 heads up. So besides stretching your dollar and tapping into 0:08:51.549 --> 0:08:54.349 your emergency savings to help you through your day to 0:08:54.349 --> 0:08:57.239 day necessities, what have you been doing? 0:08:57.450 --> 0:08:59.968 Since you've been retrenched. So from the time when I 0:08:59.969 --> 0:09:02.880 was retrenched to the time when my kid was born, 0:09:03.380 --> 0:09:06.090 it was pretty stressful. How many months is that? It's 0:09:06.090 --> 0:09:08.929 about 2 weeks. 2 weeks. Oh wow, it's about 2 0:09:08.929 --> 0:09:13.150 weeks and weeks after the baby. Yeah, I feel for you. 0:09:13.409 --> 0:09:15.450 That was pretty stressful because I got my kid to 0:09:15.450 --> 0:09:19.089 think about the complications, whether I have future jobs or not. 0:09:19.630 --> 0:09:22.679 But when my kid was born, there was no time 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:24.849 to think about such things. Yeah, sorry, you have no 0:09:24.849 --> 0:09:27.590 time to even sleep, correct? So it's like boom boom boom. 0:09:27.650 --> 0:09:29.210 I had to take care of it, take care of 0:09:29.210 --> 0:09:31.728 the kid, and take care of my wife. We didn't 0:09:31.729 --> 0:09:33.409 hire a nanny, so we wanted to save on that. 0:09:33.510 --> 0:09:36.760 So I am the nanny and you. Thank you. 0:09:37.539 --> 0:09:39.900 And after my kid was born, I saw it as 0:09:39.900 --> 0:09:43.500 like given paternity leave for a few months. Then I 0:09:43.500 --> 0:09:46.450 only really started looking for a job in February this year. 0:09:46.820 --> 0:09:50.419 That's when I gave myself time to feel the loss. 0:09:50.460 --> 0:09:53.770 I think just going through the loss that I just did, 0:09:53.900 --> 0:09:55.780 in fact, no people I know in my life went 0:09:55.780 --> 0:09:57.260 through retrenchment of this level. 0:09:57.700 --> 0:10:01.309 I have a wonderful support system around me. My wife 0:10:01.309 --> 0:10:05.109 was understanding. My mother-in-law came from Malaysia, she came from 0:10:05.109 --> 0:10:06.909 Malaysia to help care for the kids. My mom will 0:10:06.909 --> 0:10:07.909 care for the kids sometimes. 0:10:08.229 --> 0:10:10.500 And I think something that was wonderful is that we 0:10:10.500 --> 0:10:13.739 have a kampong spirit around us. People were willing to 0:10:13.739 --> 0:10:17.059 give old clothes, kids' clothes to us. People were willing 0:10:17.059 --> 0:10:21.400 to give older strollers, passing it forward for like clothing, 0:10:21.820 --> 0:10:24.260 sometimes open diapers that no longer feed their own kid, 0:10:24.299 --> 0:10:26.250 they give it to us and I have an ex- 0:10:26.250 --> 0:10:29.020 colleague who was super kind. He gave me. 0:10:29.619 --> 0:10:33.299 Like 3 packs of diapers and 2 large cartons of 0:10:33.299 --> 0:10:37.330 wet wipes as a baby gift. I'm a big advocate 0:10:37.330 --> 0:10:40.380 for just passing it on and sharing because you're right, 0:10:40.539 --> 0:10:42.419 kids outgrow these things so quickly. 0:10:42.799 --> 0:10:46.200 And if you are OK with taking secondhand things or 0:10:46.489 --> 0:10:49.840 things that are obviously unused but you know, unopened as well, 0:10:50.049 --> 0:10:52.719 I firmly believe that that is a good way to save. 0:10:53.049 --> 0:10:55.760 So you mentioned about this grieving process. Walk us through 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:58.039 a little bit more about what was in your mind. 0:10:58.250 --> 0:11:00.969 Not sure if you guys are aware of the grief cycle, 0:11:01.489 --> 0:11:05.049 that whole rollercoaster of denial, anger, depression, then you think 0:11:05.049 --> 0:11:05.530 you have. 0:11:06.130 --> 0:11:10.380 Something in between then acceptance, right? So I didn't think 0:11:10.380 --> 0:11:13.728 that I will go through this cycle so linearly, but 0:11:13.729 --> 0:11:16.530 I did, yeah. So when it started, there were a 0:11:16.530 --> 0:11:19.359 lot of denial thoughts. My train of thoughts were like, 0:11:19.369 --> 0:11:21.849 why it happened to me, it shouldn't be me, why 0:11:21.849 --> 0:11:24.289 it happened to this company, we're doing so well, things 0:11:24.289 --> 0:11:24.690 like that. 0:11:25.059 --> 0:11:28.340 And then came the anger, the anger part was when 0:11:28.340 --> 0:11:31.789 I need to reinforce myself, not to let the feeling 0:11:31.789 --> 0:11:35.070 come out, yeah, because I'm caring for infant, so it 0:11:35.070 --> 0:11:38.580 can be very frustrating. So whenever I start to feel frustrated, 0:11:38.750 --> 0:11:41.429 I need to preempt myself to catch myself and catch 0:11:41.429 --> 0:11:43.750 my feelings of what I'm doing at the moment, especially 0:11:43.750 --> 0:11:45.619 when you wake up late at night to feed the baby, 0:11:45.710 --> 0:11:48.739 you'll feel frustration and anger can come out very easily. 0:11:49.229 --> 0:11:52.020 So I think a lot of this emotion will pass. 0:11:52.309 --> 0:11:53.630 I think it's really important. 0:11:53.929 --> 0:11:57.289 To be connected with how you're walking through this season 0:11:57.289 --> 0:11:59.939 because it's not easy to have something taken away from you. 0:12:00.250 --> 0:12:02.369 It's not, especially when it comes to like your livelihood, 0:12:02.450 --> 0:12:05.010 it's your basic need. It's like your income and there's 0:12:05.010 --> 0:12:07.799 so many other expectations that's on you, right? It's a lot. 0:12:07.849 --> 0:12:10.130 And I'm so glad that Luke took the time to 0:12:10.130 --> 0:12:12.450 even know that he's going through a process. Some people, 0:12:12.489 --> 0:12:13.330 they don't, they just 0:12:13.890 --> 0:12:16.419 Straightway jump into job search and then they just hold 0:12:16.419 --> 0:12:18.969 back all these and we only see this later on 0:12:18.969 --> 0:12:22.130 when let's say the job search stretches to 3 months, 0:12:22.210 --> 0:12:24.969 4 months, then they start to enter the cycle because 0:12:24.969 --> 0:12:27.679 they didn't know it was going to last that long. Yeah, yeah. 0:12:27.929 --> 0:12:29.968 So good for you, you know, that you really took 0:12:29.969 --> 0:12:31.010 the time to know where you. 0:12:31.070 --> 0:12:34.169 are emotionally and you didn't let it affect like your family. 0:12:34.419 --> 0:12:36.488 I'm glad you're sharing this story because I think for 0:12:36.489 --> 0:12:39.689 a lot of men, fathers as well, sometimes it's hard 0:12:39.690 --> 0:12:42.239 to be the one who's going through the retrenchment because 0:12:42.539 --> 0:12:44.239 you want to be there for your wife, you want 0:12:44.239 --> 0:12:46.219 to be proud that your wife has a job and 0:12:46.219 --> 0:12:48.348 she's going back to a job, but at the same time, 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:51.718 Traditionally, a lot of families that we come from will 0:12:51.719 --> 0:12:54.080 tell us that it's still the mother's role to take 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:56.719 care of the baby. So, to be the house husband 0:12:56.719 --> 0:12:59.039 in this season of your life may not be the 0:12:59.039 --> 0:13:01.000 easiest for a lot of men and like what Gerald 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.400 was saying, if the job search stretches on. 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:06.840 That struggle that you get of wanting to be out 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.760 there and provide for your family, sometimes it's at odds 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:12.039 with the part of you that wants to continue to 0:13:12.039 --> 0:13:14.200 be a father and wants to continue to be supportive 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.559 to your wife. It does feel like that. And I 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.059 think that both my wife and I, we are not 0:13:19.059 --> 0:13:22.520 able to stay at home full time. Yeah, I don't 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:25.598 think I have the opportunity or privilege to be a 0:13:25.599 --> 0:13:28.130 house husband full time, so both of us will need 0:13:28.130 --> 0:13:28.919 to go back to work. 0:13:29.260 --> 0:13:32.200 And I think that what I see this situation is 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:34.839 that it's a blessing, yeah, other than a loss because 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.439 I have time now to improve myself. Yeah, it is 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.989 an obstacle. So I see that I need to climb, 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:44.479 I need to go over it and once I pass it, 0:13:44.580 --> 0:13:46.829 I believe and I have faith that it will be better. 0:13:47.429 --> 0:13:49.419 When you mentioned you're improving it, are you referring to 0:13:49.419 --> 0:13:50.718 like the training you're doing now? 0:13:50.844 --> 0:13:53.434 You're taking some courses, right? That's right. So right after 0:13:53.434 --> 0:13:56.314 my retrenchment, I was thinking what should I do? And 0:13:56.315 --> 0:13:59.275 one of the things that the government was heavily marketing 0:13:59.275 --> 0:14:01.564 or the use of skillish credits. So then I looked 0:14:01.565 --> 0:14:04.875 into it and then I found that there was an 0:14:04.875 --> 0:14:09.604 upcoming cost in information system, cloud architecture to be exact, 0:14:10.034 --> 0:14:11.794 and it is a passion of mine, it is the 0:14:11.794 --> 0:14:12.315 interest of mine. 0:14:12.739 --> 0:14:15.500 When I was choosing my bachelor's, I had to choose 0:14:15.500 --> 0:14:20.869 between materials engineering or this information system. I was offered both, 0:14:21.179 --> 0:14:24.099 but I went for materials engineering for financial reasons because 0:14:24.099 --> 0:14:25.940 it was a 3 year course compared to a 4 0:14:25.940 --> 0:14:29.609 year course in information system. So now I have the 0:14:29.609 --> 0:14:32.859 opportunity to do my interest again, to study what I'm 0:14:32.859 --> 0:14:33.340 interested in. 0:14:33.580 --> 0:14:36.250 So I took it up, this cloud architecture course in 0:14:36.250 --> 0:14:39.859 NTU for about 6 month period and to add on 0:14:39.859 --> 0:14:42.659 top of the blessing, I have the alumni credit to 0:14:42.659 --> 0:14:46.210 spend on to further subsidize the cost fee. The full 0:14:46.210 --> 0:14:50.210 cost would have been about 15,000 Singapore dollars after subsidies 0:14:50.210 --> 0:14:52.729 and everything with tuition grant. I believe there was tuition grant. 0:14:53.099 --> 0:14:57.590 I ended up paying $3.8,000 so it was heavily subsidized. OK, OK. 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.429 What can you do with this certificate? It is, uh, 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:04.030 they call it a professional certificate. I don't think I 0:15:04.030 --> 0:15:07.179 can get employed using this certificate. I mean, people who 0:15:07.179 --> 0:15:10.520 are fresh grads probably have better knowledge than I, considering 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:12.119 that they are studying this course 3 or 4 years. 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:15.099 But what I want to do is to build on 0:15:15.099 --> 0:15:17.780 these skills that I have as a subset of my 0:15:17.780 --> 0:15:20.369 engineering skills that I want to bring to further myself, 0:15:20.719 --> 0:15:23.130 improve myself in my job search. It's amazing. You went 0:15:23.130 --> 0:15:27.250 from a full-time worker, suddenly overnight to become a full-time father. 0:15:27.570 --> 0:15:29.510 And then also you became a part-time student at the 0:15:29.510 --> 0:15:31.809 same time with a second chance, you know what I mean, 0:15:31.929 --> 0:15:34.349 because he wanted to study both at the same time. 0:15:34.549 --> 0:15:36.789 Now he has like a second chance at trying a 0:15:36.789 --> 0:15:38.950 different path. Yes, I think we can really see how 0:15:38.950 --> 0:15:42.070 you had quite intentionally made your choices. If there's one 0:15:42.070 --> 0:15:43.710 thing I remember about you, it's like you're a person 0:15:43.710 --> 0:15:46.109 who really made the best of the situation. You really 0:15:46.109 --> 0:15:48.390 use the credits, you really use the time that you 0:15:48.390 --> 0:15:49.710 had to say what can I do? And I like 0:15:49.710 --> 0:15:51.200 what you said, right, so that I can emerge even 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:52.030 better than before. 0:15:52.390 --> 0:15:54.940 And recover and climb back to where I think I 0:15:54.940 --> 0:15:57.049 need to be, maybe even better than what was before. 0:15:57.260 --> 0:15:59.940 So what are your plans now? Are you going to 0:15:59.940 --> 0:16:01.780 be looking for work that is going to try and 0:16:01.780 --> 0:16:06.900 marry both material signs as well as cloud architecture? Those 0:16:06.900 --> 0:16:10.419 roles are very rare, and if any, they probably require 0:16:10.419 --> 0:16:12.979 like 5, 10 years of experiences. When I look at 0:16:12.979 --> 0:16:16.260 it in LinkedIn or their overseas job, which I don't 0:16:16.260 --> 0:16:17.099 want to relocate. 0:16:17.549 --> 0:16:21.400 And right now it's just finding a job that allows 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.849 me to plan 1020 years ahead to be stable there, 0:16:25.020 --> 0:16:26.119 to build my network there. 0:16:26.559 --> 0:16:29.929 And if possible, if my skill set in cloud can 0:16:29.929 --> 0:16:32.969 be utilized in another role in the same company, that 0:16:32.969 --> 0:16:36.210 would be great. Do you have any advice that you 0:16:36.210 --> 0:16:39.210 would give to people who are in a similar situation 0:16:39.210 --> 0:16:42.650 as you? I think that whoever got retrenched, the first 0:16:42.650 --> 0:16:45.369 thing you have to look at is yourself. Try not 0:16:45.369 --> 0:16:48.020 to blame people, try not to blame others. Don't even 0:16:48.020 --> 0:16:51.289 blame yourself because it's something you probably cannot control. It 0:16:51.289 --> 0:16:55.169 is something that companies decision made months ago, looking at 0:16:55.169 --> 0:16:55.690 their books. 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.020 And I think that when you are retrenched, you have 0:16:59.020 --> 0:17:01.619 to look at how much resources you have, not just money, 0:17:01.820 --> 0:17:04.339 how much time you have, how much of a connections 0:17:04.339 --> 0:17:07.180 you have in your life, and how you can become 0:17:07.180 --> 0:17:10.459 better after going through these painful moments. Wow, thank you 0:17:10.459 --> 0:17:12.179 for coming on the show today. We wish you the 0:17:12.180 --> 0:17:14.459 best in whatever you are doing, and I know that 0:17:14.459 --> 0:17:15.669 the next employer who gets you is going to be 0:17:15.670 --> 0:17:18.750 a lucky employer. Very, very lucky. Well, thank you so 0:17:18.750 --> 0:17:20.659 much for your time. Thank you for sharing your story. Yeah, 0:17:20.819 --> 0:17:21.219 no worries. 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:29.199 Hi, this is our Ask Me Anything segment where we 0:17:29.199 --> 0:17:32.119 take a question that you've sent to us. Our listener 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:35.639 Yusuf wrote in, he says that some companies are now 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:39.520 looking for character references that are not family members or 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.910 former supervisors. They're looking for either a colleague or a friend. 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:46.119 It looks like they want to know more about your 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:50.679 personal character rather than your professional character. Yusuf is asking, 0:17:50.719 --> 0:17:52.879 is this a common thing? And if so, who is 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:54.639 the best person you should recommend? 0:17:55.170 --> 0:17:58.089 Honestly, this is the first time I'm hearing this because 0:17:58.089 --> 0:18:01.640 oftentimes when recruiters call me up as a reference, they 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:06.000 are asking me about the applicant's professional conduct and work-related ethics. 0:18:06.329 --> 0:18:09.359 So what is going on here in Yusuf's case? We 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.198 see so many questions on this Ask Me Anything segment, right? 0:18:12.290 --> 0:18:14.829 I think this is the question that got me like, huh, 0:18:15.569 --> 0:18:19.349 like I've not heard of. Yes, so I think what 0:18:19.349 --> 0:18:19.510 you 0:18:19.555 --> 0:18:23.063 So might be going through is very rare because like 0:18:23.064 --> 0:18:24.984 what you mentioned, most of the time reference checks are 0:18:24.984 --> 0:18:28.175 often of people who work with you professionally before your 0:18:28.464 --> 0:18:32.135 ex-boss or from a previous company, so they can validate 0:18:32.135 --> 0:18:35.344