Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast.
Speaker 2: Hi, it's Tiffany and Gerald and this is the new
Speaker 2: season of the Work It podcast. It's the 4th season
Speaker 2: and we promise to bring you more stories, tips and
Speaker 2: advice on how you can navigate your work life. Now, Gerald,
Speaker 2: what has been the highlight for you so far? Wow,
Speaker 2: the time really flew by so fast, then the new season,
Speaker 2: I didn't even realize it was one full season gone.
Speaker 2: But I think every time we had a guest on,
Speaker 2: I think I learned a lot from them. It's like
Speaker 2: I was learning and developing myself as well as we
Speaker 2: spoke to them, whether on the show or even off
Speaker 2: the show, right? One particular thing that I remember from
Speaker 2: the last season was how I personally grew, right, doing
Speaker 2: this whole podcast was a little bit not so familiar
Speaker 2: for me at the beginning, but I'm so glad that
Speaker 2: I think I've got a better sense of my feet. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's almost like a pivot for you, right? Something different.
Speaker 2: You upskilled. Yeah, I guess I learned a lot about
Speaker 2: myself as well in the process and this.
Speaker 2: New season I'm so excited because I get to do
Speaker 2: it again. Yeah, one thing that I really liked so
Speaker 2: far that we have really tried to do more of
Speaker 2: in the last season is to invite people onto our
Speaker 2: show to talk about some of the pivots that they
Speaker 2: have done in their lives. We had that flight attendant
Speaker 2: who came on, Jane, and she spoke about how she
Speaker 2: did this hard pivot towards becoming a software engineer. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I remember when she was saying that when she was
Speaker 2: waiting to be on the plane again, she would quote
Speaker 2: right in the hotel room.
Speaker 2: And then we were just like, I thought you would
Speaker 2: just want to go and see the world, you know,
Speaker 2: but she was there upgrading her skills, learning some coding
Speaker 2: on her own. That's just amazing. These stories are amazing,
Speaker 2: so precious, right? So it's along that line, right? We
Speaker 2: want to carry on these stories. It's not just the
Speaker 2: victories that we want to talk about. We also want
Speaker 2: to talk about people who didn't have an easy time
Speaker 2: in their career and that they had to face the
Speaker 2: challenges head on, taking the challenges one step at a time.
Speaker 2: So I think one biggest challenge that we've always talked
Speaker 2: about was when people suddenly get their jobs taken away
Speaker 2: from them, when they get retrenched and.
Speaker 2: What makes it worse is like you get retrenched with
Speaker 2: many other things happening in your life. We always say
Speaker 2: that there's no good time to be retrenched, but what
Speaker 2: happens when you're told to leave your job at the
Speaker 2: same time you're having a new kid, your first kid,
Speaker 2: and at the same time you're having your first house.
Speaker 2: Not an easy situation. I just imagine how it's like.
Speaker 2: So we have someone here with us today. We have
Speaker 2: Luke Jiao, he's here to share his story with us.
Speaker 2: So welcome. Hello. I want to ask, you were retrenched
Speaker 2: last October, right, after working for an MNC for about
Speaker 2: a year.
Speaker 2: Did you have any inkling that your name was going
Speaker 2: to be on the list? Not at all, because the
Speaker 2: company just announced a plan to build a billion dollar
Speaker 2: factory in Singapore, and this was in 2021. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: it was in progress and I have news that
Speaker 2: The plant was purchased and construction was ongoing. So there
Speaker 2: was a sense of excitement obviously in the company, right?
Speaker 2: So walk us through how was the news told to you.
Speaker 2: I think I was blessed to have an understanding supervisor.
Speaker 2: So a month before the news was dropped.
Speaker 2: My supervisor was telling us the team that try to
Speaker 2: do our best to look for other opportunities soon. So
Speaker 2: there was a preampt to what we are going to
Speaker 2: go through at that point. But it must have been
Speaker 2: very confusing for you, right, because you guys saw that
Speaker 2: the news about the village.
Speaker 2: Dollar factory coming and then suddenly your supervisor came and said, Guys,
Speaker 2: I think you all should start looking for options. I mean,
Speaker 2: at the start, was there a lot of confusion even
Speaker 2: among your team? Yes, there was. People were scrambling, people
Speaker 2: thought that my supervisor was joking.
Speaker 2: And everyone I think was in a denial about what
Speaker 2: might happen to them. So it was painful, to say
Speaker 2: the least. And I think for some of us it
Speaker 2: was dreadful because they were older than I. I'm 35,
Speaker 2: but some of them were 40s, some of them were
Speaker 2: near retirement age. So when you got the news, where
Speaker 2: were you at that stage of life, like what were
Speaker 2: you expecting to do? Where were you at? OK, so
Speaker 2: this company came along with pretty good benefits, better than
Speaker 2: most Singapore's jobs from what I know.
Speaker 2: And I think because of this, my wife and I,
Speaker 2: we were confident to have a new kid. We were
Speaker 2: confident to invest in a car for the kid, and
Speaker 2: we had our new house, we moved in in September
Speaker 2: last year. So there were a lot of things that
Speaker 2: we were prepared to invest in to pay for. So
Speaker 2: when the news came and then you had all these
Speaker 2: things with a new car.
Speaker 2: kid coming along the way, a house, what were you
Speaker 2: the most worried about? I think the most stressful memory
Speaker 2: that I had after the retrenchment was I was scared
Speaker 2: that my kid was going to be born with some complications.
Speaker 2: Then there will be financial stress, there will be mental
Speaker 2: and spiritual stress. It's not easy having to go through
Speaker 2: all these changes at the same time. What was the
Speaker 2: first thing that you and your wife decided to do?
Speaker 2: Cut down on lifestyle spending, such as like what kind
Speaker 2: of lifestyle? Like we used to go to sushi roll,
Speaker 2: but we go to sushi.
Speaker 2: Or sometimes like fair price sushi is good enough for us.
Speaker 2: I think people will be surprised to find out how
Speaker 2: much they can accept when they are not able to
Speaker 2: afford more things in their life. Sounds like a very
Speaker 2: big adjustment in terms of lifestyle, in terms of what
Speaker 2: you're used to having, what you're used to eating or
Speaker 2: doing as well. I mean, yes and no because he
Speaker 2: didn't exactly cut out sushi from his life. If we
Speaker 2: use that as an example, but he just found cheaper
Speaker 2: alternatives so they could still enjoy what they used to enjoy.
Speaker 2: It's just that maybe it's
Speaker 2: Not the premium level that we would be used to
Speaker 2: or we would be going for, but it doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that it's terrible, right? So we have even tried to
Speaker 2: replicate some recipe that we ate at home. So it's
Speaker 2: cheaper and lasts longer because you can cook all the
Speaker 2: way for lunch and dinner. It's a lot of financial considerations,
Speaker 2: mainly in terms of all the adjustments. So when this
Speaker 2: retrenchment happened, financially, how did you like work around the figures?
Speaker 2: How did you know what to spend on? Did you
Speaker 2: have like savings to tide you over this?
Speaker 2: Period. Yes, we did. My wife and I, we both
Speaker 2: had about 3 or 4 months of emergency savings that
Speaker 2: right now I have tapped into almost half of it
Speaker 2: now really, but my wife still continue to build upon
Speaker 2: her emergency savings, which was good and some of the
Speaker 2: changes I did was to use less aircon, try to
Speaker 2: recycle some water and instead of using full premium tissue
Speaker 2: on the table, I used toilet paper instead. So no
Speaker 2: longer reply like goodbye 3, yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think the biggest change would be the diet,
Speaker 2: switching a lot from eating outside to eating at home
Speaker 2: and going to the wet markets. But having a kid coming,
Speaker 2: that's actually quite a costly, I would say investment, right?
Speaker 2: And there's certain things that you cannot scream on.
Speaker 2: You still need your diapers or I mean if you are, yeah,
Speaker 2: if you are going into using formula milk, you still
Speaker 2: need all of that, right? You need clothes, you need
Speaker 2: to also make sure that you are cleaning the clothes,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of cleaning, a lot of washing, right?
Speaker 2: And then you also have your car. You were saying
Speaker 2: that you also had a car. Did you have to
Speaker 2: say goodbye to a cow? Our projection was that for
Speaker 2: the next 6 months after my retrenchment, I could still
Speaker 2: afford a car stably. I think what Luke did really
Speaker 2: well was to plan.
Speaker 2: I think he planned with his wife emergency savings for
Speaker 2: rainy days like this. And then when the day came,
Speaker 2: he started to adjust the lifestyle a bit stretching the
Speaker 2: dollar so that he can sustain a bit longer. Did
Speaker 2: the company provide any form of help for you? Any
Speaker 2: other than the normal packages, they did give me a
Speaker 2: little more because I told them my kid was going
Speaker 2: to be born. So I'm supposed to take the parental
Speaker 2: leave that is mandated by the government, so they give
Speaker 2: the extra 2 weeks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so on top of your retrenchment. OK, so that's
Speaker 2: actually a very good tip. Have a chat with HR
Speaker 2: or your supervisor to see where you are, right, at
Speaker 2: that point of your life and how you can ask
Speaker 2: for more to take through a difficult period. We had
Speaker 2: one episode on the last season where we talked about
Speaker 2: negotiating the packages and I guess it says something to
Speaker 2: that extent as well, which is to look at the
Speaker 2: package and then start to negotiate if you can. So
Speaker 2: I'm glad you did that. Was that the only thing
Speaker 2: you negotiated for? I think that's the only thing.
Speaker 2: I can negotiate for, there's not much else. I think
Speaker 2: all my lists were in cash and all my benefits
Speaker 2: were not claw back. Yeah, all the flexi benefits will
Speaker 2: not claw back, which I thought was pretty decent of them.
Speaker 2: And also it's very brave of your supervisor to actually
Speaker 2: give you guys a heads up. We had a previous
Speaker 2: episode about early signs that the company is retrenching.
Speaker 2: And when we spoke to our guest, he was also
Speaker 2: saying that it's good for supervisors to give people a
Speaker 2: heads up, but also their hands are tied because they
Speaker 2: may not be able to give as much information as
Speaker 2: they would like without causing mass panic, correct? So was
Speaker 2: that mass panic in the company at that point of time?
Speaker 2: From what I've seen and heard during that retrenchment, almost 90+%
Speaker 2: of us
Speaker 2: Let go from a department and I think the people
Speaker 2: were well prepared. Yeah, so I believe that my supervisor
Speaker 2: got the green light to share from his boss. So
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty decent of them to give a
Speaker 2: heads up. So besides stretching your dollar and tapping into
Speaker 2: your emergency savings to help you through your day to
Speaker 2: day necessities, what have you been doing?
Speaker 2: Since you've been retrenched. So from the time when I
Speaker 2: was retrenched to the time when my kid was born,
Speaker 2: it was pretty stressful. How many months is that? It's
Speaker 2: about 2 weeks. 2 weeks. Oh wow, it's about 2
Speaker 2: weeks and weeks after the baby. Yeah, I feel for you.
Speaker 2: That was pretty stressful because I got my kid to
Speaker 2: think about the complications, whether I have future jobs or not.
Speaker 2: But when my kid was born, there was no time
Speaker 2: to think about such things. Yeah, sorry, you have no
Speaker 2: time to even sleep, correct? So it's like boom boom boom.
Speaker 2: I had to take care of it, take care of
Speaker 2: the kid, and take care of my wife. We didn't
Speaker 2: hire a nanny, so we wanted to save on that.
Speaker 2: So I am the nanny and you. Thank you.
Speaker 2: And after my kid was born, I saw it as
Speaker 2: like given paternity leave for a few months. Then I
Speaker 2: only really started looking for a job in February this year.
Speaker 2: That's when I gave myself time to feel the loss.
Speaker 2: I think just going through the loss that I just did,
Speaker 2: in fact, no people I know in my life went
Speaker 2: through retrenchment of this level.
Speaker 2: I have a wonderful support system around me. My wife
Speaker 2: was understanding. My mother-in-law came from Malaysia, she came from
Speaker 2: Malaysia to help care for the kids. My mom will
Speaker 2: care for the kids sometimes.
Speaker 2: And I think something that was wonderful is that we
Speaker 2: have a kampong spirit around us. People were willing to
Speaker 2: give old clothes, kids' clothes to us. People were willing
Speaker 2: to give older strollers, passing it forward for like clothing,
Speaker 2: sometimes open diapers that no longer feed their own kid,
Speaker 2: they give it to us and I have an ex-
Speaker 2: colleague who was super kind. He gave me.
Speaker 2: Like 3 packs of diapers and 2 large cartons of
Speaker 2: wet wipes as a baby gift. I'm a big advocate
Speaker 2: for just passing it on and sharing because you're right,
Speaker 2: kids outgrow these things so quickly.
Speaker 2: And if you are OK with taking secondhand things or
Speaker 2: things that are obviously unused but you know, unopened as well,
Speaker 2: I firmly believe that that is a good way to save.
Speaker 2: So you mentioned about this grieving process. Walk us through
Speaker 2: a little bit more about what was in your mind.
Speaker 2: Not sure if you guys are aware of the grief cycle,
Speaker 2: that whole rollercoaster of denial, anger, depression, then you think
Speaker 2: you have.
Speaker 2: Something in between then acceptance, right? So I didn't think
Speaker 2: that I will go through this cycle so linearly, but
Speaker 2: I did, yeah. So when it started, there were a
Speaker 2: lot of denial thoughts. My train of thoughts were like,
Speaker 2: why it happened to me, it shouldn't be me, why
Speaker 2: it happened to this company, we're doing so well, things
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 2: And then came the anger, the anger part was when
Speaker 2: I need to reinforce myself, not to let the feeling
Speaker 2: come out, yeah, because I'm caring for infant, so it
Speaker 2: can be very frustrating. So whenever I start to feel frustrated,
Speaker 2: I need to preempt myself to catch myself and catch
Speaker 2: my feelings of what I'm doing at the moment, especially
Speaker 2: when you wake up late at night to feed the baby,
Speaker 2: you'll feel frustration and anger can come out very easily.
Speaker 2: So I think a lot of this emotion will pass.
Speaker 2: I think it's really important.
Speaker 2: To be connected with how you're walking through this season
Speaker 2: because it's not easy to have something taken away from you.
Speaker 2: It's not, especially when it comes to like your livelihood,
Speaker 2: it's your basic need. It's like your income and there's
Speaker 2: so many other expectations that's on you, right? It's a lot.
Speaker 2: And I'm so glad that Luke took the time to
Speaker 2: even know that he's going through a process. Some people,
Speaker 2: they don't, they just
Speaker 2: Straightway jump into job search and then they just hold
Speaker 2: back all these and we only see this later on
Speaker 2: when let's say the job search stretches to 3 months,
Speaker 2: 4 months, then they start to enter the cycle because
Speaker 2: they didn't know it was going to last that long. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: So good for you, you know, that you really took
Speaker 2: the time to know where you.
Speaker 2: are emotionally and you didn't let it affect like your family.
Speaker 2: I'm glad you're sharing this story because I think for
Speaker 2: a lot of men, fathers as well, sometimes it's hard
Speaker 2: to be the one who's going through the retrenchment because
Speaker 2: you want to be there for your wife, you want
Speaker 2: to be proud that your wife has a job and
Speaker 2: she's going back to a job, but at the same time,
Speaker 2: Traditionally, a lot of families that we come from will
Speaker 2: tell us that it's still the mother's role to take
Speaker 2: care of the baby. So, to be the house husband
Speaker 2: in this season of your life may not be the
Speaker 2: easiest for a lot of men and like what Gerald
Speaker 2: was saying, if the job search stretches on.
Speaker 2: That struggle that you get of wanting to be out
Speaker 2: there and provide for your family, sometimes it's at odds
Speaker 2: with the part of you that wants to continue to
Speaker 2: be a father and wants to continue to be supportive
Speaker 2: to your wife. It does feel like that. And I
Speaker 2: think that both my wife and I, we are not
Speaker 2: able to stay at home full time. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 2: think I have the opportunity or privilege to be a
Speaker 2: house husband full time, so both of us will need
Speaker 2: to go back to work.
Speaker 2: And I think that what I see this situation is
Speaker 2: that it's a blessing, yeah, other than a loss because
Speaker 2: I have time now to improve myself. Yeah, it is
Speaker 2: an obstacle. So I see that I need to climb,
Speaker 2: I need to go over it and once I pass it,
Speaker 2: I believe and I have faith that it will be better.
Speaker 2: When you mentioned you're improving it, are you referring to
Speaker 2: like the training you're doing now?
Speaker 2: You're taking some courses, right? That's right. So right after
Speaker 2: my retrenchment, I was thinking what should I do? And
Speaker 2: one of the things that the government was heavily marketing
Speaker 2: or the use of skillish credits. So then I looked
Speaker 2: into it and then I found that there was an
Speaker 2: upcoming cost in information system, cloud architecture to be exact,
Speaker 2: and it is a passion of mine, it is the
Speaker 2: interest of mine.
Speaker 2: When I was choosing my bachelor's, I had to choose
Speaker 2: between materials engineering or this information system. I was offered both,
Speaker 2: but I went for materials engineering for financial reasons because
Speaker 2: it was a 3 year course compared to a 4
Speaker 2: year course in information system. So now I have the
Speaker 2: opportunity to do my interest again, to study what I'm
Speaker 2: interested in.
Speaker 2: So I took it up, this cloud architecture course in
Speaker 2: NTU for about 6 month period and to add on
Speaker 2: top of the blessing, I have the alumni credit to
Speaker 2: spend on to further subsidize the cost fee. The full
Speaker 2: cost would have been about 15,000 Singapore dollars after subsidies
Speaker 2: and everything with tuition grant. I believe there was tuition grant.
Speaker 2: I ended up paying $3.8,000 so it was heavily subsidized. OK, OK.
Speaker 2: What can you do with this certificate? It is, uh,
Speaker 2: they call it a professional certificate. I don't think I
Speaker 2: can get employed using this certificate. I mean, people who
Speaker 2: are fresh grads probably have better knowledge than I, considering
Speaker 2: that they are studying this course 3 or 4 years.
Speaker 2: But what I want to do is to build on
Speaker 2: these skills that I have as a subset of my
Speaker 2: engineering skills that I want to bring to further myself,
Speaker 2: improve myself in my job search. It's amazing. You went
Speaker 2: from a full-time worker, suddenly overnight to become a full-time father.
Speaker 2: And then also you became a part-time student at the
Speaker 2: same time with a second chance, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: because he wanted to study both at the same time.
Speaker 2: Now he has like a second chance at trying a
Speaker 2: different path. Yes, I think we can really see how
Speaker 2: you had quite intentionally made your choices. If there's one
Speaker 2: thing I remember about you, it's like you're a person
Speaker 2: who really made the best of the situation. You really
Speaker 2: use the credits, you really use the time that you
Speaker 2: had to say what can I do? And I like
Speaker 2: what you said, right, so that I can emerge even
Speaker 2: better than before.
Speaker 2: And recover and climb back to where I think I
Speaker 2: need to be, maybe even better than what was before.
Speaker 2: So what are your plans now? Are you going to
Speaker 2: be looking for work that is going to try and
Speaker 2: marry both material signs as well as cloud architecture? Those
Speaker 2: roles are very rare, and if any, they probably require
Speaker 2: like 5, 10 years of experiences. When I look at
Speaker 2: it in LinkedIn or their overseas job, which I don't
Speaker 2: want to relocate.
Speaker 2: And right now it's just finding a job that allows
Speaker 2: me to plan 1020 years ahead to be stable there,
Speaker 2: to build my network there.
Speaker 2: And if possible, if my skill set in cloud can
Speaker 2: be utilized in another role in the same company, that
Speaker 2: would be great. Do you have any advice that you
Speaker 2: would give to people who are in a similar situation
Speaker 2: as you? I think that whoever got retrenched, the first
Speaker 2: thing you have to look at is yourself. Try not
Speaker 2: to blame people, try not to blame others. Don't even
Speaker 2: blame yourself because it's something you probably cannot control. It
Speaker 2: is something that companies decision made months ago, looking at
Speaker 2: their books.
Speaker 2: And I think that when you are retrenched, you have
Speaker 2: to look at how much resources you have, not just money,
Speaker 2: how much time you have, how much of a connections
Speaker 2: you have in your life, and how you can become
Speaker 2: better after going through these painful moments. Wow, thank you
Speaker 2: for coming on the show today. We wish you the
Speaker 2: best in whatever you are doing, and I know that
Speaker 2: the next employer who gets you is going to be
Speaker 2: a lucky employer. Very, very lucky. Well, thank you so
Speaker 2: much for your time. Thank you for sharing your story. Yeah,
Speaker 2: no worries.
Speaker 2: Hi, this is our Ask Me Anything segment where we
Speaker 2: take a question that you've sent to us. Our listener
Speaker 2: Yusuf wrote in, he says that some companies are now
Speaker 2: looking for character references that are not family members or
Speaker 2: former supervisors. They're looking for either a colleague or a friend.
Speaker 2: It looks like they want to know more about your
Speaker 2: personal character rather than your professional character. Yusuf is asking,
Speaker 2: is this a common thing? And if so, who is
Speaker 2: the best person you should recommend?
Speaker 2: Honestly, this is the first time I'm hearing this because
Speaker 2: oftentimes when recruiters call me up as a reference, they
Speaker 2: are asking me about the applicant's professional conduct and work-related ethics.
Speaker 2: So what is going on here in Yusuf's case? We
Speaker 2: see so many questions on this Ask Me Anything segment, right?
Speaker 2: I think this is the question that got me like, huh,
Speaker 2: like I've not heard of. Yes, so I think what
Speaker 2: you
Speaker 2: So might be going through is very rare because like
Speaker 2: what you mentioned, most of the time reference checks are
Speaker 2: often of people who work with you professionally before your
Speaker 2: ex-boss or from a previous company, so they can validate
Speaker 2: and also check on your performance, right? But as a
Speaker 2: friend and just a, a peer colleague, I really think
Speaker 2: it's very rare. I mean, I mean to be biased
Speaker 2: as well, right? Because you're my friend. Yeah, correct. So
Speaker 2: I'm struggling to see.
Speaker 2: Why would they want to do this unless it's just
Speaker 2: another supplementary layer, that means they wanted a professional check
Speaker 2: and a personal check maybe. But I checked with a
Speaker 2: few of my friends as well, those in the recruitment,
Speaker 2: they said, No, it doesn't happen. It doesn't quite happen
Speaker 2: as well. OK, so more often than not, is it
Speaker 2: true that you should be asking your supervisor to be
Speaker 2: your reference because it can get quite awkward to ask
Speaker 2: your current supervisor.
Speaker 2: To be your reference, right? It means your current supervisor
Speaker 2: knows that you are a flight risk. So if you're
Speaker 2: still in a job and you're looking for a new
Speaker 2: role and you're asked to give a professional character reference,
Speaker 2: don't give your current boss, give a previous boss, right?
Speaker 2: Give a former boss from a previous company, I think
Speaker 2: that would be the best way to go. How far
Speaker 2: back though? Like if I have already been in this
Speaker 2: company for let's say 7 years, then that means my
Speaker 2: previous
Speaker 2: boss only knew me 7 years ago by working professionally
Speaker 2: for them. How far back would you say we can
Speaker 2: tap into that boss? Yeah, I think by and large
Speaker 2: what we want to do is to offer maybe a
Speaker 2: couple of references and then we can let the recruiter
Speaker 2: or the HR person choose who they want to check
Speaker 2: in with. So maybe offer one or two former supervisors
Speaker 2: or bosses and if possible, also offer them to be
Speaker 2: a little bit more of the diverse kind.
Speaker 2: meaning like different industries or different in terms of the
Speaker 2: job length as well. Yeah, so maybe one is more
Speaker 2: recent and one is a bit longer time. Usually I
Speaker 2: would say go for those that you have worked for
Speaker 2: them for some time, like maybe you work for them
Speaker 2: a good 5 years, then that kind of reference might
Speaker 2: be more strong because you have a solid 5 years
Speaker 2: as compared to you work somewhere for 6 months and
Speaker 2: then you give that boss as a character reference. What
Speaker 2: if I don't have that kind of boss, meaning
Speaker 2: Let's say for example, I have been in a job
Speaker 2: for a very long time, 1015 years. It's my first job,
Speaker 2: fresh out of school and then I want to career switch,
Speaker 2: so that's going to be my second company. Then who
Speaker 2: can I tap on if it's not my supervisor? I
Speaker 2: think if you don't have that, if this is your
Speaker 2: first job to change and you don't have that previous person,
Speaker 2: you could ask an industry colleague, a friend.
Speaker 2: Right, but someone who's from the industry is also possible
Speaker 2: to give that reference, especially if you are just starting
Speaker 2: out as a fresh grad. People can understand that you
Speaker 2: don't really have a lot of track record to give.
Speaker 2: I've also seen before students giving lecturers, their professors are
Speaker 2: the lecturers as a reference for their work. I've seen
Speaker 2: that before, but this is only for those who are
Speaker 2: just starting out. Sometimes some of your peers within these
Speaker 2: 10 to 15 years, they have, like you say,
Speaker 2: Gone out to other companies are working with this within
Speaker 2: the industry, but in different companies, they could also be
Speaker 2: your peer reference, right, because they may be in a
Speaker 2: position where what they say will also lend weight to
Speaker 2: your application process. Definitely. So they may not need to
Speaker 2: be in your previous company, they may have moved on,
Speaker 2: but just knowing that they are able to validate for
Speaker 2: you your work experiences, that's pretty important. So one quick
Speaker 2: tip as well is to remind your referees, the people
Speaker 2: who you are surfacing up to the HR recruiters, right.
Speaker 2: Please call them and let them know that you are
Speaker 2: giving their names up to the HR because in this
Speaker 2: day and age, normally when someone calls you, you think
Speaker 2: it's a scam, right? Or not only that, I think
Speaker 2: it's just basic courtesy, right, because I actually heard of
Speaker 2: people saying that.
Speaker 2: They received a phone call from a recruiter saying that
Speaker 2: their name was put down as a reference and they
Speaker 2: were not told about it. So they were caught off
Speaker 2: guard and yeah, even though they felt like they really
Speaker 2: wanted to say something nice about the applicant, they were
Speaker 2: not happy and they just felt like
Speaker 2: Why am I doing you a favor if you don't
Speaker 2: have the basic courtesy to tell me that you have
Speaker 2: put my name down as a reference. So the moment
Speaker 2: that you want to surface a name to a recruiter,
Speaker 2: it's best that you let that colleague, ex-boss know that, hey,
Speaker 2: I'm looking for a new job, I'm in the midst
Speaker 2: of a transition. Can I put your name as my
Speaker 2: character referee? And they would be contacting you for a check.
Speaker 2: They may be doing so in a couple of weeks' time,
Speaker 2: and maybe you want to make an ask to say,
Speaker 2: could you maybe say something good about the way I
Speaker 2: worked with you before.
Speaker 2: For my achievements in terms of certain projects that we
Speaker 2: did on that is important to the next employer. My
Speaker 2: own personal question here, what if someone approaches me to
Speaker 2: be a character reference and I don't want to be
Speaker 2: a reference, how should I talk about it? I think
Speaker 2: you can just decline politely and you can just say
Speaker 2: that I don't think I'm able to validate the experiences
Speaker 2: that you have for this job that you are applying for.
Speaker 2: So if this happened to me, I will ask for
Speaker 2: the job description first. I'll take a look at it.
Speaker 2: I'll see whether is it.
Speaker 2: Something that I'm able to vouch for you on and
Speaker 2: if not, I'm just, I don't think I can because
Speaker 2: it seems to be a very different role. I don't
Speaker 2: have the experience with you. I don't know you that well.
Speaker 2: I may not be able to represent you or to
Speaker 2: vouch for you in a way that can help you
Speaker 2: score the job. So you're taking yourself out of the running,
Speaker 2: don't sabo that person. Yes, I think that would be
Speaker 2: a good point to remember that not helping that person
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you don't like that person. Not helping
Speaker 2: that person could also mean that you do not want
Speaker 2: to sabotage their chances. Yes, that's right. OK.
Speaker 2: So if like Yo, you have a work-related question, do
Speaker 2: send it to us. We are at CNA podcast at mecorp.com.sg.
Speaker 2: You can also find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Melisten
Speaker 2: and YouTube. The team behind the Work It podcast is
Speaker 2: Christina Robert, Joanne Chan, Junai Johari and Sai Ye Win.
Speaker 2: Sound mixing is by Carrie Lim, video by Hanida Amin.
Speaker 2: I'm Gerald and I'm Tiffany. Have a smooth work week ahead.