1 00:00:03,470 --> 00:00:05,699 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:10,289 --> 00:00:13,529 Speaker 2: Hi, it's Tiffany and Gerald and this is the new 3 00:00:13,529 --> 00:00:16,719 Speaker 2: season of the Work It podcast. It's the 4th season 4 00:00:16,719 --> 00:00:19,969 Speaker 2: and we promise to bring you more stories, tips and 5 00:00:19,969 --> 00:00:23,489 Speaker 2: advice on how you can navigate your work life. Now, Gerald, 6 00:00:23,530 --> 00:00:25,829 Speaker 2: what has been the highlight for you so far? Wow, 7 00:00:25,930 --> 00:00:28,159 Speaker 2: the time really flew by so fast, then the new season, 8 00:00:28,209 --> 00:00:30,319 Speaker 2: I didn't even realize it was one full season gone. 9 00:00:31,139 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 2: But I think every time we had a guest on, 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: I think I learned a lot from them. It's like 11 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 2: I was learning and developing myself as well as we 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 2: spoke to them, whether on the show or even off 13 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 2: the show, right? One particular thing that I remember from 14 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,759 Speaker 2: the last season was how I personally grew, right, doing 15 00:00:45,759 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: this whole podcast was a little bit not so familiar 16 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 2: for me at the beginning, but I'm so glad that 17 00:00:50,639 --> 00:00:53,409 Speaker 2: I think I've got a better sense of my feet. Yeah, 18 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: that's almost like a pivot for you, right? Something different. 19 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,860 Speaker 2: You upskilled. Yeah, I guess I learned a lot about 20 00:00:58,860 --> 00:01:00,439 Speaker 2: myself as well in the process and this. 21 00:01:00,529 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 2: New season I'm so excited because I get to do 22 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 2: it again. Yeah, one thing that I really liked so 23 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 2: far that we have really tried to do more of 24 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 2: in the last season is to invite people onto our 25 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 2: show to talk about some of the pivots that they 26 00:01:13,559 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 2: have done in their lives. We had that flight attendant 27 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,639 Speaker 2: who came on, Jane, and she spoke about how she 28 00:01:19,639 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 2: did this hard pivot towards becoming a software engineer. Yeah, 29 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,849 Speaker 2: I remember when she was saying that when she was 30 00:01:25,849 --> 00:01:28,199 Speaker 2: waiting to be on the plane again, she would quote 31 00:01:28,199 --> 00:01:28,970 Speaker 2: right in the hotel room. 32 00:01:30,169 --> 00:01:31,279 Speaker 2: And then we were just like, I thought you would 33 00:01:31,279 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 2: just want to go and see the world, you know, 34 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,279 Speaker 2: but she was there upgrading her skills, learning some coding 35 00:01:36,279 --> 00:01:38,268 Speaker 2: on her own. That's just amazing. These stories are amazing, 36 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 2: so precious, right? So it's along that line, right? We 37 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 2: want to carry on these stories. It's not just the 38 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 2: victories that we want to talk about. We also want 39 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,169 Speaker 2: to talk about people who didn't have an easy time 40 00:01:47,169 --> 00:01:49,639 Speaker 2: in their career and that they had to face the 41 00:01:49,639 --> 00:01:52,750 Speaker 2: challenges head on, taking the challenges one step at a time. 42 00:01:52,919 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: So I think one biggest challenge that we've always talked 43 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,599 Speaker 2: about was when people suddenly get their jobs taken away 44 00:01:57,599 --> 00:01:59,389 Speaker 2: from them, when they get retrenched and. 45 00:01:59,809 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 2: What makes it worse is like you get retrenched with 46 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: many other things happening in your life. We always say 47 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 2: that there's no good time to be retrenched, but what 48 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 2: happens when you're told to leave your job at the 49 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,788 Speaker 2: same time you're having a new kid, your first kid, 50 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,149 Speaker 2: and at the same time you're having your first house. 51 00:02:14,869 --> 00:02:17,350 Speaker 2: Not an easy situation. I just imagine how it's like. 52 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,559 Speaker 2: So we have someone here with us today. We have 53 00:02:19,559 --> 00:02:21,669 Speaker 2: Luke Jiao, he's here to share his story with us. 54 00:02:21,679 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 2: So welcome. Hello. I want to ask, you were retrenched 55 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: last October, right, after working for an MNC for about 56 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:29,270 Speaker 2: a year. 57 00:02:29,910 --> 00:02:32,910 Speaker 2: Did you have any inkling that your name was going 58 00:02:32,910 --> 00:02:35,770 Speaker 2: to be on the list? Not at all, because the 59 00:02:35,770 --> 00:02:39,110 Speaker 2: company just announced a plan to build a billion dollar 60 00:02:39,110 --> 00:02:43,389 Speaker 2: factory in Singapore, and this was in 2021. Yeah, and 61 00:02:43,389 --> 00:02:45,309 Speaker 2: it was in progress and I have news that 62 00:02:45,365 --> 00:02:48,865 Speaker 2: The plant was purchased and construction was ongoing. So there 63 00:02:48,865 --> 00:02:51,945 Speaker 2: was a sense of excitement obviously in the company, right? 64 00:02:52,115 --> 00:02:54,854 Speaker 2: So walk us through how was the news told to you. 65 00:02:54,945 --> 00:02:58,095 Speaker 2: I think I was blessed to have an understanding supervisor. 66 00:02:58,375 --> 00:03:00,894 Speaker 2: So a month before the news was dropped. 67 00:03:01,389 --> 00:03:05,070 Speaker 2: My supervisor was telling us the team that try to 68 00:03:05,070 --> 00:03:08,429 Speaker 2: do our best to look for other opportunities soon. So 69 00:03:08,429 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: there was a preampt to what we are going to 70 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:12,309 Speaker 2: go through at that point. But it must have been 71 00:03:12,309 --> 00:03:15,110 Speaker 2: very confusing for you, right, because you guys saw that 72 00:03:15,110 --> 00:03:16,309 Speaker 2: the news about the village. 73 00:03:16,589 --> 00:03:20,270 Speaker 2: Dollar factory coming and then suddenly your supervisor came and said, Guys, 74 00:03:20,350 --> 00:03:22,669 Speaker 2: I think you all should start looking for options. I mean, 75 00:03:22,750 --> 00:03:25,509 Speaker 2: at the start, was there a lot of confusion even 76 00:03:25,508 --> 00:03:29,429 Speaker 2: among your team? Yes, there was. People were scrambling, people 77 00:03:29,429 --> 00:03:31,380 Speaker 2: thought that my supervisor was joking. 78 00:03:32,029 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 2: And everyone I think was in a denial about what 79 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: might happen to them. So it was painful, to say 80 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: the least. And I think for some of us it 81 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,029 Speaker 2: was dreadful because they were older than I. I'm 35, 82 00:03:45,119 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 2: but some of them were 40s, some of them were 83 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,279 Speaker 2: near retirement age. So when you got the news, where 84 00:03:50,279 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: were you at that stage of life, like what were 85 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,839 Speaker 2: you expecting to do? Where were you at? OK, so 86 00:03:55,839 --> 00:03:59,389 Speaker 2: this company came along with pretty good benefits, better than 87 00:03:59,389 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 2: most Singapore's jobs from what I know. 88 00:04:01,740 --> 00:04:03,949 Speaker 2: And I think because of this, my wife and I, 89 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,149 Speaker 2: we were confident to have a new kid. We were 90 00:04:06,149 --> 00:04:10,190 Speaker 2: confident to invest in a car for the kid, and 91 00:04:10,190 --> 00:04:12,169 Speaker 2: we had our new house, we moved in in September 92 00:04:12,169 --> 00:04:14,270 Speaker 2: last year. So there were a lot of things that 93 00:04:14,270 --> 00:04:17,029 Speaker 2: we were prepared to invest in to pay for. So 94 00:04:17,029 --> 00:04:18,789 Speaker 2: when the news came and then you had all these 95 00:04:18,790 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 2: things with a new car. 96 00:04:20,299 --> 00:04:22,339 Speaker 2: kid coming along the way, a house, what were you 97 00:04:22,339 --> 00:04:25,618 Speaker 2: the most worried about? I think the most stressful memory 98 00:04:25,619 --> 00:04:28,219 Speaker 2: that I had after the retrenchment was I was scared 99 00:04:28,220 --> 00:04:30,149 Speaker 2: that my kid was going to be born with some complications. 100 00:04:31,178 --> 00:04:34,459 Speaker 2: Then there will be financial stress, there will be mental 101 00:04:34,459 --> 00:04:37,420 Speaker 2: and spiritual stress. It's not easy having to go through 102 00:04:37,420 --> 00:04:39,899 Speaker 2: all these changes at the same time. What was the 103 00:04:39,899 --> 00:04:41,899 Speaker 2: first thing that you and your wife decided to do? 104 00:04:42,019 --> 00:04:44,899 Speaker 2: Cut down on lifestyle spending, such as like what kind 105 00:04:44,899 --> 00:04:48,059 Speaker 2: of lifestyle? Like we used to go to sushi roll, 106 00:04:48,619 --> 00:04:49,540 Speaker 2: but we go to sushi. 107 00:04:50,940 --> 00:04:53,832 Speaker 2: Or sometimes like fair price sushi is good enough for us. 108 00:04:54,022 --> 00:04:56,541 Speaker 2: I think people will be surprised to find out how 109 00:04:56,541 --> 00:04:59,772 Speaker 2: much they can accept when they are not able to 110 00:04:59,772 --> 00:05:02,261 Speaker 2: afford more things in their life. Sounds like a very 111 00:05:02,261 --> 00:05:04,502 Speaker 2: big adjustment in terms of lifestyle, in terms of what 112 00:05:04,502 --> 00:05:06,701 Speaker 2: you're used to having, what you're used to eating or 113 00:05:06,701 --> 00:05:09,321 Speaker 2: doing as well. I mean, yes and no because he 114 00:05:09,321 --> 00:05:11,701 Speaker 2: didn't exactly cut out sushi from his life. If we 115 00:05:11,701 --> 00:05:14,152 Speaker 2: use that as an example, but he just found cheaper 116 00:05:14,152 --> 00:05:17,441 Speaker 2: alternatives so they could still enjoy what they used to enjoy. 117 00:05:17,462 --> 00:05:19,022 Speaker 2: It's just that maybe it's 118 00:05:19,074 --> 00:05:21,984 Speaker 2: Not the premium level that we would be used to 119 00:05:21,984 --> 00:05:24,424 Speaker 2: or we would be going for, but it doesn't mean 120 00:05:24,424 --> 00:05:27,063 Speaker 2: that it's terrible, right? So we have even tried to 121 00:05:27,063 --> 00:05:31,022 Speaker 2: replicate some recipe that we ate at home. So it's 122 00:05:31,023 --> 00:05:33,463 Speaker 2: cheaper and lasts longer because you can cook all the 123 00:05:33,463 --> 00:05:37,063 Speaker 2: way for lunch and dinner. It's a lot of financial considerations, 124 00:05:37,264 --> 00:05:39,894 Speaker 2: mainly in terms of all the adjustments. So when this 125 00:05:39,894 --> 00:05:43,743 Speaker 2: retrenchment happened, financially, how did you like work around the figures? 126 00:05:43,824 --> 00:05:46,664 Speaker 2: How did you know what to spend on? Did you 127 00:05:46,664 --> 00:05:48,424 Speaker 2: have like savings to tide you over this? 128 00:05:48,536 --> 00:05:50,635 Speaker 2: Period. Yes, we did. My wife and I, we both 129 00:05:50,635 --> 00:05:53,865 Speaker 2: had about 3 or 4 months of emergency savings that 130 00:05:53,865 --> 00:05:56,066 Speaker 2: right now I have tapped into almost half of it 131 00:05:56,065 --> 00:05:58,665 Speaker 2: now really, but my wife still continue to build upon 132 00:05:58,665 --> 00:06:03,036 Speaker 2: her emergency savings, which was good and some of the 133 00:06:03,036 --> 00:06:06,376 Speaker 2: changes I did was to use less aircon, try to 134 00:06:06,376 --> 00:06:11,466 Speaker 2: recycle some water and instead of using full premium tissue 135 00:06:11,466 --> 00:06:14,305 Speaker 2: on the table, I used toilet paper instead. So no 136 00:06:14,305 --> 00:06:17,785 Speaker 2: longer reply like goodbye 3, yeah. 137 00:06:18,209 --> 00:06:20,928 Speaker 2: And I think the biggest change would be the diet, 138 00:06:21,269 --> 00:06:24,308 Speaker 2: switching a lot from eating outside to eating at home 139 00:06:24,309 --> 00:06:27,619 Speaker 2: and going to the wet markets. But having a kid coming, 140 00:06:27,779 --> 00:06:31,289 Speaker 2: that's actually quite a costly, I would say investment, right? 141 00:06:31,369 --> 00:06:33,578 Speaker 2: And there's certain things that you cannot scream on. 142 00:06:33,940 --> 00:06:36,950 Speaker 2: You still need your diapers or I mean if you are, yeah, 143 00:06:37,070 --> 00:06:39,109 Speaker 2: if you are going into using formula milk, you still 144 00:06:39,109 --> 00:06:41,809 Speaker 2: need all of that, right? You need clothes, you need 145 00:06:41,809 --> 00:06:43,510 Speaker 2: to also make sure that you are cleaning the clothes, 146 00:06:43,549 --> 00:06:46,829 Speaker 2: there's a lot of cleaning, a lot of washing, right? 147 00:06:46,910 --> 00:06:49,109 Speaker 2: And then you also have your car. You were saying 148 00:06:49,109 --> 00:06:50,660 Speaker 2: that you also had a car. Did you have to 149 00:06:51,029 --> 00:06:53,750 Speaker 2: say goodbye to a cow? Our projection was that for 150 00:06:53,750 --> 00:06:56,029 Speaker 2: the next 6 months after my retrenchment, I could still 151 00:06:56,029 --> 00:06:59,029 Speaker 2: afford a car stably. I think what Luke did really 152 00:06:59,029 --> 00:07:00,010 Speaker 2: well was to plan. 153 00:07:00,390 --> 00:07:03,149 Speaker 2: I think he planned with his wife emergency savings for 154 00:07:03,149 --> 00:07:05,890 Speaker 2: rainy days like this. And then when the day came, 155 00:07:06,140 --> 00:07:08,738 Speaker 2: he started to adjust the lifestyle a bit stretching the 156 00:07:08,738 --> 00:07:11,299 Speaker 2: dollar so that he can sustain a bit longer. Did 157 00:07:11,299 --> 00:07:13,709 Speaker 2: the company provide any form of help for you? Any 158 00:07:13,709 --> 00:07:18,100 Speaker 2: other than the normal packages, they did give me a 159 00:07:18,100 --> 00:07:20,380 Speaker 2: little more because I told them my kid was going 160 00:07:20,380 --> 00:07:22,820 Speaker 2: to be born. So I'm supposed to take the parental 161 00:07:22,820 --> 00:07:25,459 Speaker 2: leave that is mandated by the government, so they give 162 00:07:25,459 --> 00:07:26,570 Speaker 2: the extra 2 weeks. 163 00:07:27,170 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, so on top of your retrenchment. OK, so that's 164 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 2: actually a very good tip. Have a chat with HR 165 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,559 Speaker 2: or your supervisor to see where you are, right, at 166 00:07:36,559 --> 00:07:38,679 Speaker 2: that point of your life and how you can ask 167 00:07:38,679 --> 00:07:41,239 Speaker 2: for more to take through a difficult period. We had 168 00:07:41,239 --> 00:07:43,390 Speaker 2: one episode on the last season where we talked about 169 00:07:43,390 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 2: negotiating the packages and I guess it says something to 170 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 2: that extent as well, which is to look at the 171 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 2: package and then start to negotiate if you can. So 172 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: I'm glad you did that. Was that the only thing 173 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 2: you negotiated for? I think that's the only thing. 174 00:07:54,010 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 2: I can negotiate for, there's not much else. I think 175 00:07:56,679 --> 00:07:59,679 Speaker 2: all my lists were in cash and all my benefits 176 00:07:59,679 --> 00:08:02,279 Speaker 2: were not claw back. Yeah, all the flexi benefits will 177 00:08:02,279 --> 00:08:04,540 Speaker 2: not claw back, which I thought was pretty decent of them. 178 00:08:05,359 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: And also it's very brave of your supervisor to actually 179 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 2: give you guys a heads up. We had a previous 180 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: episode about early signs that the company is retrenching. 181 00:08:13,510 --> 00:08:16,369 Speaker 2: And when we spoke to our guest, he was also 182 00:08:16,369 --> 00:08:19,089 Speaker 2: saying that it's good for supervisors to give people a 183 00:08:19,089 --> 00:08:21,609 Speaker 2: heads up, but also their hands are tied because they 184 00:08:21,609 --> 00:08:24,929 Speaker 2: may not be able to give as much information as 185 00:08:24,929 --> 00:08:27,850 Speaker 2: they would like without causing mass panic, correct? So was 186 00:08:27,850 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 2: that mass panic in the company at that point of time? 187 00:08:30,890 --> 00:08:35,010 Speaker 2: From what I've seen and heard during that retrenchment, almost 90+% 188 00:08:35,010 --> 00:08:35,349 Speaker 2: of us 189 00:08:35,469 --> 00:08:37,750 Speaker 2: Let go from a department and I think the people 190 00:08:37,750 --> 00:08:41,500 Speaker 2: were well prepared. Yeah, so I believe that my supervisor 191 00:08:41,500 --> 00:08:45,699 Speaker 2: got the green light to share from his boss. So 192 00:08:45,869 --> 00:08:48,239 Speaker 2: I think it's pretty decent of them to give a 193 00:08:48,239 --> 00:08:51,549 Speaker 2: heads up. So besides stretching your dollar and tapping into 194 00:08:51,549 --> 00:08:54,349 Speaker 2: your emergency savings to help you through your day to 195 00:08:54,349 --> 00:08:57,239 Speaker 2: day necessities, what have you been doing? 196 00:08:57,450 --> 00:08:59,968 Speaker 2: Since you've been retrenched. So from the time when I 197 00:08:59,969 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: was retrenched to the time when my kid was born, 198 00:09:03,380 --> 00:09:06,090 Speaker 2: it was pretty stressful. How many months is that? It's 199 00:09:06,090 --> 00:09:08,929 Speaker 2: about 2 weeks. 2 weeks. Oh wow, it's about 2 200 00:09:08,929 --> 00:09:13,150 Speaker 2: weeks and weeks after the baby. Yeah, I feel for you. 201 00:09:13,409 --> 00:09:15,450 Speaker 2: That was pretty stressful because I got my kid to 202 00:09:15,450 --> 00:09:19,089 Speaker 2: think about the complications, whether I have future jobs or not. 203 00:09:19,630 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 2: But when my kid was born, there was no time 204 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:24,849 Speaker 2: to think about such things. Yeah, sorry, you have no 205 00:09:24,849 --> 00:09:27,590 Speaker 2: time to even sleep, correct? So it's like boom boom boom. 206 00:09:27,650 --> 00:09:29,210 Speaker 2: I had to take care of it, take care of 207 00:09:29,210 --> 00:09:31,728 Speaker 2: the kid, and take care of my wife. We didn't 208 00:09:31,729 --> 00:09:33,409 Speaker 2: hire a nanny, so we wanted to save on that. 209 00:09:33,510 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 2: So I am the nanny and you. Thank you. 210 00:09:37,539 --> 00:09:39,900 Speaker 2: And after my kid was born, I saw it as 211 00:09:39,900 --> 00:09:43,500 Speaker 2: like given paternity leave for a few months. Then I 212 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:46,450 Speaker 2: only really started looking for a job in February this year. 213 00:09:46,820 --> 00:09:50,419 Speaker 2: That's when I gave myself time to feel the loss. 214 00:09:50,460 --> 00:09:53,770 Speaker 2: I think just going through the loss that I just did, 215 00:09:53,900 --> 00:09:55,780 Speaker 2: in fact, no people I know in my life went 216 00:09:55,780 --> 00:09:57,260 Speaker 2: through retrenchment of this level. 217 00:09:57,700 --> 00:10:01,309 Speaker 2: I have a wonderful support system around me. My wife 218 00:10:01,309 --> 00:10:05,109 Speaker 2: was understanding. My mother-in-law came from Malaysia, she came from 219 00:10:05,109 --> 00:10:06,909 Speaker 2: Malaysia to help care for the kids. My mom will 220 00:10:06,909 --> 00:10:07,909 Speaker 2: care for the kids sometimes. 221 00:10:08,229 --> 00:10:10,500 Speaker 2: And I think something that was wonderful is that we 222 00:10:10,500 --> 00:10:13,739 Speaker 2: have a kampong spirit around us. People were willing to 223 00:10:13,739 --> 00:10:17,059 Speaker 2: give old clothes, kids' clothes to us. People were willing 224 00:10:17,059 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: to give older strollers, passing it forward for like clothing, 225 00:10:21,820 --> 00:10:24,260 Speaker 2: sometimes open diapers that no longer feed their own kid, 226 00:10:24,299 --> 00:10:26,250 Speaker 2: they give it to us and I have an ex- 227 00:10:26,250 --> 00:10:29,020 Speaker 2: colleague who was super kind. He gave me. 228 00:10:29,619 --> 00:10:33,299 Speaker 2: Like 3 packs of diapers and 2 large cartons of 229 00:10:33,299 --> 00:10:37,330 Speaker 2: wet wipes as a baby gift. I'm a big advocate 230 00:10:37,330 --> 00:10:40,380 Speaker 2: for just passing it on and sharing because you're right, 231 00:10:40,539 --> 00:10:42,419 Speaker 2: kids outgrow these things so quickly. 232 00:10:42,799 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 2: And if you are OK with taking secondhand things or 233 00:10:46,489 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 2: things that are obviously unused but you know, unopened as well, 234 00:10:50,049 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 2: I firmly believe that that is a good way to save. 235 00:10:53,049 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: So you mentioned about this grieving process. Walk us through 236 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,039 Speaker 2: a little bit more about what was in your mind. 237 00:10:58,250 --> 00:11:00,969 Speaker 2: Not sure if you guys are aware of the grief cycle, 238 00:11:01,489 --> 00:11:05,049 Speaker 2: that whole rollercoaster of denial, anger, depression, then you think 239 00:11:05,049 --> 00:11:05,530 Speaker 2: you have. 240 00:11:06,130 --> 00:11:10,380 Speaker 2: Something in between then acceptance, right? So I didn't think 241 00:11:10,380 --> 00:11:13,728 Speaker 2: that I will go through this cycle so linearly, but 242 00:11:13,729 --> 00:11:16,530 Speaker 2: I did, yeah. So when it started, there were a 243 00:11:16,530 --> 00:11:19,359 Speaker 2: lot of denial thoughts. My train of thoughts were like, 244 00:11:19,369 --> 00:11:21,849 Speaker 2: why it happened to me, it shouldn't be me, why 245 00:11:21,849 --> 00:11:24,289 Speaker 2: it happened to this company, we're doing so well, things 246 00:11:24,289 --> 00:11:24,690 Speaker 2: like that. 247 00:11:25,059 --> 00:11:28,340 Speaker 2: And then came the anger, the anger part was when 248 00:11:28,340 --> 00:11:31,789 Speaker 2: I need to reinforce myself, not to let the feeling 249 00:11:31,789 --> 00:11:35,070 Speaker 2: come out, yeah, because I'm caring for infant, so it 250 00:11:35,070 --> 00:11:38,580 Speaker 2: can be very frustrating. So whenever I start to feel frustrated, 251 00:11:38,750 --> 00:11:41,429 Speaker 2: I need to preempt myself to catch myself and catch 252 00:11:41,429 --> 00:11:43,750 Speaker 2: my feelings of what I'm doing at the moment, especially 253 00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:45,619 Speaker 2: when you wake up late at night to feed the baby, 254 00:11:45,710 --> 00:11:48,739 Speaker 2: you'll feel frustration and anger can come out very easily. 255 00:11:49,229 --> 00:11:52,020 Speaker 2: So I think a lot of this emotion will pass. 256 00:11:52,309 --> 00:11:53,630 Speaker 2: I think it's really important. 257 00:11:53,929 --> 00:11:57,289 Speaker 2: To be connected with how you're walking through this season 258 00:11:57,289 --> 00:11:59,939 Speaker 2: because it's not easy to have something taken away from you. 259 00:12:00,250 --> 00:12:02,369 Speaker 2: It's not, especially when it comes to like your livelihood, 260 00:12:02,450 --> 00:12:05,010 Speaker 2: it's your basic need. It's like your income and there's 261 00:12:05,010 --> 00:12:07,799 Speaker 2: so many other expectations that's on you, right? It's a lot. 262 00:12:07,849 --> 00:12:10,130 Speaker 2: And I'm so glad that Luke took the time to 263 00:12:10,130 --> 00:12:12,450 Speaker 2: even know that he's going through a process. Some people, 264 00:12:12,489 --> 00:12:13,330 Speaker 2: they don't, they just 265 00:12:13,890 --> 00:12:16,419 Speaker 2: Straightway jump into job search and then they just hold 266 00:12:16,419 --> 00:12:18,969 Speaker 2: back all these and we only see this later on 267 00:12:18,969 --> 00:12:22,130 Speaker 2: when let's say the job search stretches to 3 months, 268 00:12:22,210 --> 00:12:24,969 Speaker 2: 4 months, then they start to enter the cycle because 269 00:12:24,969 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 2: they didn't know it was going to last that long. Yeah, yeah. 270 00:12:27,929 --> 00:12:29,968 Speaker 2: So good for you, you know, that you really took 271 00:12:29,969 --> 00:12:31,010 Speaker 2: the time to know where you. 272 00:12:31,070 --> 00:12:34,169 Speaker 2: are emotionally and you didn't let it affect like your family. 273 00:12:34,419 --> 00:12:36,488 Speaker 2: I'm glad you're sharing this story because I think for 274 00:12:36,489 --> 00:12:39,689 Speaker 2: a lot of men, fathers as well, sometimes it's hard 275 00:12:39,690 --> 00:12:42,239 Speaker 2: to be the one who's going through the retrenchment because 276 00:12:42,539 --> 00:12:44,239 Speaker 2: you want to be there for your wife, you want 277 00:12:44,239 --> 00:12:46,219 Speaker 2: to be proud that your wife has a job and 278 00:12:46,219 --> 00:12:48,348 Speaker 2: she's going back to a job, but at the same time, 279 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,718 Speaker 2: Traditionally, a lot of families that we come from will 280 00:12:51,719 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 2: tell us that it's still the mother's role to take 281 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,719 Speaker 2: care of the baby. So, to be the house husband 282 00:12:56,719 --> 00:12:59,039 Speaker 2: in this season of your life may not be the 283 00:12:59,039 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 2: easiest for a lot of men and like what Gerald 284 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: was saying, if the job search stretches on. 285 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 2: That struggle that you get of wanting to be out 286 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 2: there and provide for your family, sometimes it's at odds 287 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,039 Speaker 2: with the part of you that wants to continue to 288 00:13:12,039 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 2: be a father and wants to continue to be supportive 289 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 2: to your wife. It does feel like that. And I 290 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,059 Speaker 2: think that both my wife and I, we are not 291 00:13:19,059 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: able to stay at home full time. Yeah, I don't 292 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,598 Speaker 2: think I have the opportunity or privilege to be a 293 00:13:25,599 --> 00:13:28,130 Speaker 2: house husband full time, so both of us will need 294 00:13:28,130 --> 00:13:28,919 Speaker 2: to go back to work. 295 00:13:29,260 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 2: And I think that what I see this situation is 296 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 2: that it's a blessing, yeah, other than a loss because 297 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 2: I have time now to improve myself. Yeah, it is 298 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,989 Speaker 2: an obstacle. So I see that I need to climb, 299 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,479 Speaker 2: I need to go over it and once I pass it, 300 00:13:44,580 --> 00:13:46,829 Speaker 2: I believe and I have faith that it will be better. 301 00:13:47,429 --> 00:13:49,419 Speaker 2: When you mentioned you're improving it, are you referring to 302 00:13:49,419 --> 00:13:50,718 Speaker 2: like the training you're doing now? 303 00:13:50,844 --> 00:13:53,434 Speaker 2: You're taking some courses, right? That's right. So right after 304 00:13:53,434 --> 00:13:56,314 Speaker 2: my retrenchment, I was thinking what should I do? And 305 00:13:56,315 --> 00:13:59,275 Speaker 2: one of the things that the government was heavily marketing 306 00:13:59,275 --> 00:14:01,564 Speaker 2: or the use of skillish credits. So then I looked 307 00:14:01,565 --> 00:14:04,875 Speaker 2: into it and then I found that there was an 308 00:14:04,875 --> 00:14:09,604 Speaker 2: upcoming cost in information system, cloud architecture to be exact, 309 00:14:10,034 --> 00:14:11,794 Speaker 2: and it is a passion of mine, it is the 310 00:14:11,794 --> 00:14:12,315 Speaker 2: interest of mine. 311 00:14:12,739 --> 00:14:15,500 Speaker 2: When I was choosing my bachelor's, I had to choose 312 00:14:15,500 --> 00:14:20,869 Speaker 2: between materials engineering or this information system. I was offered both, 313 00:14:21,179 --> 00:14:24,099 Speaker 2: but I went for materials engineering for financial reasons because 314 00:14:24,099 --> 00:14:25,940 Speaker 2: it was a 3 year course compared to a 4 315 00:14:25,940 --> 00:14:29,609 Speaker 2: year course in information system. So now I have the 316 00:14:29,609 --> 00:14:32,859 Speaker 2: opportunity to do my interest again, to study what I'm 317 00:14:32,859 --> 00:14:33,340 Speaker 2: interested in. 318 00:14:33,580 --> 00:14:36,250 Speaker 2: So I took it up, this cloud architecture course in 319 00:14:36,250 --> 00:14:39,859 Speaker 2: NTU for about 6 month period and to add on 320 00:14:39,859 --> 00:14:42,659 Speaker 2: top of the blessing, I have the alumni credit to 321 00:14:42,659 --> 00:14:46,210 Speaker 2: spend on to further subsidize the cost fee. The full 322 00:14:46,210 --> 00:14:50,210 Speaker 2: cost would have been about 15,000 Singapore dollars after subsidies 323 00:14:50,210 --> 00:14:52,729 Speaker 2: and everything with tuition grant. I believe there was tuition grant. 324 00:14:53,099 --> 00:14:57,590 Speaker 2: I ended up paying $3.8,000 so it was heavily subsidized. OK, OK. 325 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,429 Speaker 2: What can you do with this certificate? It is, uh, 326 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,030 Speaker 2: they call it a professional certificate. I don't think I 327 00:15:04,030 --> 00:15:07,179 Speaker 2: can get employed using this certificate. I mean, people who 328 00:15:07,179 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: are fresh grads probably have better knowledge than I, considering 329 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:12,119 Speaker 2: that they are studying this course 3 or 4 years. 330 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,099 Speaker 2: But what I want to do is to build on 331 00:15:15,099 --> 00:15:17,780 Speaker 2: these skills that I have as a subset of my 332 00:15:17,780 --> 00:15:20,369 Speaker 2: engineering skills that I want to bring to further myself, 333 00:15:20,719 --> 00:15:23,130 Speaker 2: improve myself in my job search. It's amazing. You went 334 00:15:23,130 --> 00:15:27,250 Speaker 2: from a full-time worker, suddenly overnight to become a full-time father. 335 00:15:27,570 --> 00:15:29,510 Speaker 2: And then also you became a part-time student at the 336 00:15:29,510 --> 00:15:31,809 Speaker 2: same time with a second chance, you know what I mean, 337 00:15:31,929 --> 00:15:34,349 Speaker 2: because he wanted to study both at the same time. 338 00:15:34,549 --> 00:15:36,789 Speaker 2: Now he has like a second chance at trying a 339 00:15:36,789 --> 00:15:38,950 Speaker 2: different path. Yes, I think we can really see how 340 00:15:38,950 --> 00:15:42,070 Speaker 2: you had quite intentionally made your choices. If there's one 341 00:15:42,070 --> 00:15:43,710 Speaker 2: thing I remember about you, it's like you're a person 342 00:15:43,710 --> 00:15:46,109 Speaker 2: who really made the best of the situation. You really 343 00:15:46,109 --> 00:15:48,390 Speaker 2: use the credits, you really use the time that you 344 00:15:48,390 --> 00:15:49,710 Speaker 2: had to say what can I do? And I like 345 00:15:49,710 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 2: what you said, right, so that I can emerge even 346 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:52,030 Speaker 2: better than before. 347 00:15:52,390 --> 00:15:54,940 Speaker 2: And recover and climb back to where I think I 348 00:15:54,940 --> 00:15:57,049 Speaker 2: need to be, maybe even better than what was before. 349 00:15:57,260 --> 00:15:59,940 Speaker 2: So what are your plans now? Are you going to 350 00:15:59,940 --> 00:16:01,780 Speaker 2: be looking for work that is going to try and 351 00:16:01,780 --> 00:16:06,900 Speaker 2: marry both material signs as well as cloud architecture? Those 352 00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:10,419 Speaker 2: roles are very rare, and if any, they probably require 353 00:16:10,419 --> 00:16:12,979 Speaker 2: like 5, 10 years of experiences. When I look at 354 00:16:12,979 --> 00:16:16,260 Speaker 2: it in LinkedIn or their overseas job, which I don't 355 00:16:16,260 --> 00:16:17,099 Speaker 2: want to relocate. 356 00:16:17,549 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 2: And right now it's just finding a job that allows 357 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,849 Speaker 2: me to plan 1020 years ahead to be stable there, 358 00:16:25,020 --> 00:16:26,119 Speaker 2: to build my network there. 359 00:16:26,559 --> 00:16:29,929 Speaker 2: And if possible, if my skill set in cloud can 360 00:16:29,929 --> 00:16:32,969 Speaker 2: be utilized in another role in the same company, that 361 00:16:32,969 --> 00:16:36,210 Speaker 2: would be great. Do you have any advice that you 362 00:16:36,210 --> 00:16:39,210 Speaker 2: would give to people who are in a similar situation 363 00:16:39,210 --> 00:16:42,650 Speaker 2: as you? I think that whoever got retrenched, the first 364 00:16:42,650 --> 00:16:45,369 Speaker 2: thing you have to look at is yourself. Try not 365 00:16:45,369 --> 00:16:48,020 Speaker 2: to blame people, try not to blame others. Don't even 366 00:16:48,020 --> 00:16:51,289 Speaker 2: blame yourself because it's something you probably cannot control. It 367 00:16:51,289 --> 00:16:55,169 Speaker 2: is something that companies decision made months ago, looking at 368 00:16:55,169 --> 00:16:55,690 Speaker 2: their books. 369 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,020 Speaker 2: And I think that when you are retrenched, you have 370 00:16:59,020 --> 00:17:01,619 Speaker 2: to look at how much resources you have, not just money, 371 00:17:01,820 --> 00:17:04,339 Speaker 2: how much time you have, how much of a connections 372 00:17:04,339 --> 00:17:07,180 Speaker 2: you have in your life, and how you can become 373 00:17:07,180 --> 00:17:10,459 Speaker 2: better after going through these painful moments. Wow, thank you 374 00:17:10,459 --> 00:17:12,179 Speaker 2: for coming on the show today. We wish you the 375 00:17:12,180 --> 00:17:14,459 Speaker 2: best in whatever you are doing, and I know that 376 00:17:14,459 --> 00:17:15,669 Speaker 2: the next employer who gets you is going to be 377 00:17:15,670 --> 00:17:18,750 Speaker 2: a lucky employer. Very, very lucky. Well, thank you so 378 00:17:18,750 --> 00:17:20,659 Speaker 2: much for your time. Thank you for sharing your story. Yeah, 379 00:17:20,819 --> 00:17:21,219 Speaker 2: no worries. 380 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 2: Hi, this is our Ask Me Anything segment where we 381 00:17:29,199 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 2: take a question that you've sent to us. Our listener 382 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 2: Yusuf wrote in, he says that some companies are now 383 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 2: looking for character references that are not family members or 384 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,910 Speaker 2: former supervisors. They're looking for either a colleague or a friend. 385 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 2: It looks like they want to know more about your 386 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 2: personal character rather than your professional character. Yusuf is asking, 387 00:17:50,719 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 2: is this a common thing? And if so, who is 388 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 2: the best person you should recommend? 389 00:17:55,170 --> 00:17:58,089 Speaker 2: Honestly, this is the first time I'm hearing this because 390 00:17:58,089 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 2: oftentimes when recruiters call me up as a reference, they 391 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 2: are asking me about the applicant's professional conduct and work-related ethics. 392 00:18:06,329 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: So what is going on here in Yusuf's case? We 393 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,198 Speaker 2: see so many questions on this Ask Me Anything segment, right? 394 00:18:12,290 --> 00:18:14,829 Speaker 2: I think this is the question that got me like, huh, 395 00:18:15,569 --> 00:18:19,349 Speaker 2: like I've not heard of. Yes, so I think what 396 00:18:19,349 --> 00:18:19,510 Speaker 2: you 397 00:18:19,555 --> 00:18:23,063 Speaker 2: So might be going through is very rare because like 398 00:18:23,064 --> 00:18:24,984 Speaker 2: what you mentioned, most of the time reference checks are 399 00:18:24,984 --> 00:18:28,175 Speaker 2: often of people who work with you professionally before your 400 00:18:28,464 --> 00:18:32,135 Speaker 2: ex-boss or from a previous company, so they can validate 401 00:18:32,135 --> 00:18:35,344 Speaker 2: and also check on your performance, right? But as a 402 00:18:35,344 --> 00:18:38,425 Speaker 2: friend and just a, a peer colleague, I really think 403 00:18:38,425 --> 00:18:40,505 Speaker 2: it's very rare. I mean, I mean to be biased 404 00:18:40,505 --> 00:18:42,885 Speaker 2: as well, right? Because you're my friend. Yeah, correct. So 405 00:18:42,885 --> 00:18:44,064 Speaker 2: I'm struggling to see. 406 00:18:44,719 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 2: Why would they want to do this unless it's just 407 00:18:47,199 --> 00:18:51,069 Speaker 2: another supplementary layer, that means they wanted a professional check 408 00:18:51,069 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 2: and a personal check maybe. But I checked with a 409 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 2: few of my friends as well, those in the recruitment, 410 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 2: they said, No, it doesn't happen. It doesn't quite happen 411 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,599 Speaker 2: as well. OK, so more often than not, is it 412 00:19:01,599 --> 00:19:05,479 Speaker 2: true that you should be asking your supervisor to be 413 00:19:05,479 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 2: your reference because it can get quite awkward to ask 414 00:19:07,959 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 2: your current supervisor. 415 00:19:09,776 --> 00:19:12,057 Speaker 2: To be your reference, right? It means your current supervisor 416 00:19:12,057 --> 00:19:15,217 Speaker 2: knows that you are a flight risk. So if you're 417 00:19:15,217 --> 00:19:17,097 Speaker 2: still in a job and you're looking for a new 418 00:19:17,097 --> 00:19:20,486 Speaker 2: role and you're asked to give a professional character reference, 419 00:19:20,896 --> 00:19:23,857 Speaker 2: don't give your current boss, give a previous boss, right? 420 00:19:23,967 --> 00:19:26,495 Speaker 2: Give a former boss from a previous company, I think 421 00:19:26,496 --> 00:19:28,296 Speaker 2: that would be the best way to go. How far 422 00:19:28,296 --> 00:19:31,016 Speaker 2: back though? Like if I have already been in this 423 00:19:31,016 --> 00:19:34,447 Speaker 2: company for let's say 7 years, then that means my 424 00:19:34,446 --> 00:19:34,716 Speaker 2: previous 425 00:19:34,773 --> 00:19:37,833 Speaker 2: boss only knew me 7 years ago by working professionally 426 00:19:37,833 --> 00:19:40,754 Speaker 2: for them. How far back would you say we can 427 00:19:40,754 --> 00:19:43,154 Speaker 2: tap into that boss? Yeah, I think by and large 428 00:19:43,154 --> 00:19:45,193 Speaker 2: what we want to do is to offer maybe a 429 00:19:45,193 --> 00:19:48,154 Speaker 2: couple of references and then we can let the recruiter 430 00:19:48,154 --> 00:19:50,193 Speaker 2: or the HR person choose who they want to check 431 00:19:50,193 --> 00:19:53,833 Speaker 2: in with. So maybe offer one or two former supervisors 432 00:19:53,833 --> 00:19:57,592 Speaker 2: or bosses and if possible, also offer them to be 433 00:19:57,593 --> 00:19:59,624 Speaker 2: a little bit more of the diverse kind. 434 00:20:00,171 --> 00:20:03,051 Speaker 2: meaning like different industries or different in terms of the 435 00:20:03,051 --> 00:20:05,451 Speaker 2: job length as well. Yeah, so maybe one is more 436 00:20:05,451 --> 00:20:08,291 Speaker 2: recent and one is a bit longer time. Usually I 437 00:20:08,291 --> 00:20:10,331 Speaker 2: would say go for those that you have worked for 438 00:20:10,330 --> 00:20:12,450 Speaker 2: them for some time, like maybe you work for them 439 00:20:12,451 --> 00:20:14,610 Speaker 2: a good 5 years, then that kind of reference might 440 00:20:14,609 --> 00:20:17,671 Speaker 2: be more strong because you have a solid 5 years 441 00:20:17,671 --> 00:20:19,250 Speaker 2: as compared to you work somewhere for 6 months and 442 00:20:19,250 --> 00:20:22,211 Speaker 2: then you give that boss as a character reference. What 443 00:20:22,211 --> 00:20:25,161 Speaker 2: if I don't have that kind of boss, meaning 444 00:20:25,589 --> 00:20:27,949 Speaker 2: Let's say for example, I have been in a job 445 00:20:27,949 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 2: for a very long time, 1015 years. It's my first job, 446 00:20:32,170 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 2: fresh out of school and then I want to career switch, 447 00:20:35,410 --> 00:20:37,250 Speaker 2: so that's going to be my second company. Then who 448 00:20:37,250 --> 00:20:40,089 Speaker 2: can I tap on if it's not my supervisor? I 449 00:20:40,089 --> 00:20:42,209 Speaker 2: think if you don't have that, if this is your 450 00:20:42,209 --> 00:20:44,959 Speaker 2: first job to change and you don't have that previous person, 451 00:20:45,170 --> 00:20:47,448 Speaker 2: you could ask an industry colleague, a friend. 452 00:20:47,910 --> 00:20:51,020 Speaker 2: Right, but someone who's from the industry is also possible 453 00:20:51,020 --> 00:20:53,629 Speaker 2: to give that reference, especially if you are just starting 454 00:20:53,630 --> 00:20:55,669 Speaker 2: out as a fresh grad. People can understand that you 455 00:20:55,670 --> 00:20:58,079 Speaker 2: don't really have a lot of track record to give. 456 00:20:58,229 --> 00:21:01,750 Speaker 2: I've also seen before students giving lecturers, their professors are 457 00:21:01,750 --> 00:21:04,149 Speaker 2: the lecturers as a reference for their work. I've seen 458 00:21:04,150 --> 00:21:05,910 Speaker 2: that before, but this is only for those who are 459 00:21:05,910 --> 00:21:08,069 Speaker 2: just starting out. Sometimes some of your peers within these 460 00:21:08,069 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 2: 10 to 15 years, they have, like you say, 461 00:21:09,699 --> 00:21:12,649 Speaker 2: Gone out to other companies are working with this within 462 00:21:12,650 --> 00:21:15,650 Speaker 2: the industry, but in different companies, they could also be 463 00:21:15,650 --> 00:21:18,010 Speaker 2: your peer reference, right, because they may be in a 464 00:21:18,010 --> 00:21:21,609 Speaker 2: position where what they say will also lend weight to 465 00:21:21,609 --> 00:21:24,688 Speaker 2: your application process. Definitely. So they may not need to 466 00:21:24,689 --> 00:21:27,599 Speaker 2: be in your previous company, they may have moved on, 467 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,329 Speaker 2: but just knowing that they are able to validate for 468 00:21:30,329 --> 00:21:33,810 Speaker 2: you your work experiences, that's pretty important. So one quick 469 00:21:33,810 --> 00:21:37,089 Speaker 2: tip as well is to remind your referees, the people 470 00:21:37,089 --> 00:21:39,569 Speaker 2: who you are surfacing up to the HR recruiters, right. 471 00:21:40,030 --> 00:21:42,369 Speaker 2: Please call them and let them know that you are 472 00:21:42,369 --> 00:21:46,420 Speaker 2: giving their names up to the HR because in this 473 00:21:46,420 --> 00:21:48,409 Speaker 2: day and age, normally when someone calls you, you think 474 00:21:48,410 --> 00:21:51,329 Speaker 2: it's a scam, right? Or not only that, I think 475 00:21:51,329 --> 00:21:53,650 Speaker 2: it's just basic courtesy, right, because I actually heard of 476 00:21:53,650 --> 00:21:54,410 Speaker 2: people saying that. 477 00:21:54,810 --> 00:21:57,410 Speaker 2: They received a phone call from a recruiter saying that 478 00:21:57,410 --> 00:21:59,698 Speaker 2: their name was put down as a reference and they 479 00:21:59,699 --> 00:22:02,089 Speaker 2: were not told about it. So they were caught off 480 00:22:02,089 --> 00:22:04,849 Speaker 2: guard and yeah, even though they felt like they really 481 00:22:04,849 --> 00:22:08,050 Speaker 2: wanted to say something nice about the applicant, they were 482 00:22:08,050 --> 00:22:09,948 Speaker 2: not happy and they just felt like 483 00:22:10,260 --> 00:22:11,780 Speaker 2: Why am I doing you a favor if you don't 484 00:22:11,780 --> 00:22:14,300 Speaker 2: have the basic courtesy to tell me that you have 485 00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:16,569 Speaker 2: put my name down as a reference. So the moment 486 00:22:16,569 --> 00:22:18,979 Speaker 2: that you want to surface a name to a recruiter, 487 00:22:19,060 --> 00:22:22,218 Speaker 2: it's best that you let that colleague, ex-boss know that, hey, 488 00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:24,109 Speaker 2: I'm looking for a new job, I'm in the midst 489 00:22:24,109 --> 00:22:26,979 Speaker 2: of a transition. Can I put your name as my 490 00:22:26,979 --> 00:22:30,650 Speaker 2: character referee? And they would be contacting you for a check. 491 00:22:30,739 --> 00:22:32,770 Speaker 2: They may be doing so in a couple of weeks' time, 492 00:22:32,959 --> 00:22:34,770 Speaker 2: and maybe you want to make an ask to say, 493 00:22:34,780 --> 00:22:37,859 Speaker 2: could you maybe say something good about the way I 494 00:22:37,859 --> 00:22:38,459 Speaker 2: worked with you before. 495 00:22:38,579 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 2: For my achievements in terms of certain projects that we 496 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,079 Speaker 2: did on that is important to the next employer. My 497 00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 2: own personal question here, what if someone approaches me to 498 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,979 Speaker 2: be a character reference and I don't want to be 499 00:22:49,979 --> 00:22:52,839 Speaker 2: a reference, how should I talk about it? I think 500 00:22:52,839 --> 00:22:55,130 Speaker 2: you can just decline politely and you can just say 501 00:22:55,130 --> 00:22:58,989 Speaker 2: that I don't think I'm able to validate the experiences 502 00:22:58,989 --> 00:23:01,619 Speaker 2: that you have for this job that you are applying for. 503 00:23:01,719 --> 00:23:03,319 Speaker 2: So if this happened to me, I will ask for 504 00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:05,948 Speaker 2: the job description first. I'll take a look at it. 505 00:23:06,020 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 2: I'll see whether is it. 506 00:23:06,989 --> 00:23:09,020 Speaker 2: Something that I'm able to vouch for you on and 507 00:23:09,020 --> 00:23:11,050 Speaker 2: if not, I'm just, I don't think I can because 508 00:23:11,260 --> 00:23:13,260 Speaker 2: it seems to be a very different role. I don't 509 00:23:13,260 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 2: have the experience with you. I don't know you that well. 510 00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:18,419 Speaker 2: I may not be able to represent you or to 511 00:23:18,420 --> 00:23:20,139 Speaker 2: vouch for you in a way that can help you 512 00:23:20,140 --> 00:23:22,170 Speaker 2: score the job. So you're taking yourself out of the running, 513 00:23:22,339 --> 00:23:24,810 Speaker 2: don't sabo that person. Yes, I think that would be 514 00:23:24,810 --> 00:23:28,139 Speaker 2: a good point to remember that not helping that person 515 00:23:28,140 --> 00:23:31,099 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you don't like that person. Not helping 516 00:23:31,099 --> 00:23:32,780 Speaker 2: that person could also mean that you do not want 517 00:23:32,780 --> 00:23:35,219 Speaker 2: to sabotage their chances. Yes, that's right. OK. 518 00:23:35,630 --> 00:23:38,719 Speaker 2: So if like Yo, you have a work-related question, do 519 00:23:38,719 --> 00:23:43,390 Speaker 2: send it to us. We are at CNA podcast at mecorp.com.sg. 520 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 2: You can also find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Melisten 521 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 2: and YouTube. The team behind the Work It podcast is 522 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 2: Christina Robert, Joanne Chan, Junai Johari and Sai Ye Win. 523 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,319 Speaker 2: Sound mixing is by Carrie Lim, video by Hanida Amin. 524 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 2: I'm Gerald and I'm Tiffany. Have a smooth work week ahead.