1 00:00:03,380 --> 00:00:05,710 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:08,500 --> 00:00:10,899 Speaker 1: Did you always have a career plan? Because I saw 3 00:00:10,909 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: from your linkedin profile that you were in marketing and 4 00:00:13,810 --> 00:00:17,649 Speaker 1: then talent acquisition, not exactly the conventional route to get 5 00:00:17,659 --> 00:00:19,860 Speaker 1: where you are as a career consultant. 6 00:00:20,069 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 2: I 7 00:00:20,090 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 2: wouldn't say that I had a career plan when I 8 00:00:22,610 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 2: first started, but I had a vision of what I 9 00:00:24,969 --> 00:00:26,870 Speaker 2: hope of what I wanted to be. 10 00:00:29,010 --> 00:00:32,970 Speaker 1: Hello. Welcome back to another episode of work. It with me, 11 00:00:32,979 --> 00:00:36,380 Speaker 1: Tiffany and my co-host Gerald Tan. We've been getting good 12 00:00:36,389 --> 00:00:39,009 Speaker 1: feedback from all of you. Some have written to us 13 00:00:39,020 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: and others have told us directly how the topics we've 14 00:00:42,049 --> 00:00:45,270 Speaker 1: tackled have changed the way you view your work and 15 00:00:45,279 --> 00:00:48,348 Speaker 1: we're glad that we're building this community here. Tiffanie. I'm 16 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:49,990 Speaker 1: happy to see all those feedback 17 00:00:50,206 --> 00:00:51,666 Speaker 1: and for all of you out there, we are really 18 00:00:51,675 --> 00:00:54,276 Speaker 1: here to help you with any work conundrums or questions 19 00:00:54,285 --> 00:00:56,785 Speaker 1: you have. So if you have something that I can 20 00:00:56,796 --> 00:00:59,666 Speaker 1: answer during our ask me anything segment, let me know, 21 00:00:59,706 --> 00:01:04,036 Speaker 1: write to us at CN podcasts at media corp.com dot SG. 22 00:01:04,236 --> 00:01:07,026 Speaker 1: In the meantime, remember to follow us on Spotify, Apple 23 00:01:07,036 --> 00:01:10,286 Speaker 1: podcast and youtube music. So you can get an alert 24 00:01:10,295 --> 00:01:11,075 Speaker 1: whenever a new 25 00:01:11,181 --> 00:01:14,152 Speaker 1: episode drops. As Gerald said earlier, I gave him a 26 00:01:14,162 --> 00:01:17,122 Speaker 1: work related question at the end of our main discussion. 27 00:01:17,132 --> 00:01:21,402 Speaker 1: So today's question is how do I deliver feedback to 28 00:01:21,412 --> 00:01:24,342 Speaker 1: a colleague or staff who I feel is a little 29 00:01:24,351 --> 00:01:27,382 Speaker 1: bit sensitive or could be a bit defensive. I've had 30 00:01:27,391 --> 00:01:30,181 Speaker 1: to deliver such feedback before and let's just say I 31 00:01:30,191 --> 00:01:32,202 Speaker 1: didn't think it went very well, 32 00:01:32,580 --> 00:01:34,849 Speaker 1: which is why I'm very interested to hear what you 33 00:01:34,860 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: have to say about that. Gerald. I think it's a 34 00:01:37,129 --> 00:01:40,099 Speaker 1: super question. It's definitely one for many, many of us. 35 00:01:40,370 --> 00:01:42,250 Speaker 1: I hope to learn some thoughts so that we can 36 00:01:42,260 --> 00:01:45,849 Speaker 1: learn how to tell the truth without killing the relationship, right? 37 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,910 Speaker 1: But before we introduce our guest today, Tiffany, I want 38 00:01:48,919 --> 00:01:51,459 Speaker 1: to ask you when you were in your twenties. Did 39 00:01:51,470 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: you have a career plan? Well, I mean, nothing too 40 00:01:54,489 --> 00:01:55,510 Speaker 1: structured honestly. 41 00:01:55,586 --> 00:01:57,817 Speaker 1: I mean, in my twenties, I had one goal, just 42 00:01:57,827 --> 00:02:00,717 Speaker 1: one goal. I wanted to work overseas and then I 43 00:02:00,726 --> 00:02:03,916 Speaker 1: achieved that. Did you have a goal? Has that changed? Yeah. 44 00:02:03,927 --> 00:02:06,847 Speaker 1: So for me, my career plan after graduating from school 45 00:02:06,857 --> 00:02:10,566 Speaker 1: was quite simple. Just climb the corporate ladder as fast 46 00:02:10,576 --> 00:02:13,626 Speaker 1: as possible. Earn as much as possible. I think for 47 00:02:13,636 --> 00:02:16,927 Speaker 1: me along the way, the plan kind of change 180 degrees. 48 00:02:17,167 --> 00:02:18,597 Speaker 1: So I think it goes to show 49 00:02:18,684 --> 00:02:21,103 Speaker 1: that we all have different ideas and thoughts of how 50 00:02:21,113 --> 00:02:23,473 Speaker 1: to plan our careers, our ideas about life and work 51 00:02:23,554 --> 00:02:25,843 Speaker 1: do change. And which is why today we want to 52 00:02:25,854 --> 00:02:28,453 Speaker 1: ask a bigger question. Maybe we should start by asking, 53 00:02:28,464 --> 00:02:31,024 Speaker 1: do we all need a career plan? This topic is 54 00:02:31,032 --> 00:02:33,002 Speaker 1: very close to my heart, a very big part of 55 00:02:33,014 --> 00:02:35,304 Speaker 1: my work. So I'm very glad to have with us 56 00:02:35,313 --> 00:02:37,913 Speaker 1: today in the studio, Chris Lao. Chris LA is a 57 00:02:37,923 --> 00:02:40,853 Speaker 1: principal career consultant at work for Singapore. And Chris is 58 00:02:40,863 --> 00:02:41,703 Speaker 1: someone unfamiliar 59 00:02:41,930 --> 00:02:44,519 Speaker 1: because we were ex colleagues. Welcome, Chris. Hi. 60 00:02:44,531 --> 00:02:44,841 Speaker 2: Good 61 00:02:44,850 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 2: to see you again. 62 00:02:45,531 --> 00:02:45,781 Speaker 1: Well, 63 00:02:45,791 --> 00:02:48,001 Speaker 1: Chris, I want to start off with asking, did you 64 00:02:48,011 --> 00:02:50,291 Speaker 1: always have a career plan because I saw from your 65 00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: linkedin profile that you were in marketing and then talent 66 00:02:53,610 --> 00:02:57,591 Speaker 1: acquisition not exactly the conventional route to get where you 67 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,391 Speaker 1: are as a career consultant. 68 00:02:59,630 --> 00:03:02,281 Speaker 2: Well, did I have a plan? We all grew up 69 00:03:02,291 --> 00:03:04,761 Speaker 2: having a vision of who we want to be 70 00:03:05,029 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 2: and when we are fortunate enough to be in a 71 00:03:07,809 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 2: position to be able to dream, which I think most 72 00:03:10,809 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 2: of us were you tend to have a picture or 73 00:03:13,529 --> 00:03:16,190 Speaker 2: a visualization of who you want to be? I wouldn't 74 00:03:16,199 --> 00:03:18,869 Speaker 2: say that I had a career plan when I first started, 75 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:19,168 Speaker 2: but 76 00:03:19,419 --> 00:03:21,869 Speaker 2: I had a vision of what I wanted to be. 77 00:03:22,008 --> 00:03:25,169 Speaker 2: What was that? I wanted to see the world through 78 00:03:25,179 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 2: the eyes of marketing, through the eyes of services and 79 00:03:29,089 --> 00:03:32,809 Speaker 2: products that connects and unite people of the world. And 80 00:03:32,820 --> 00:03:37,179 Speaker 2: one of the most interesting aspects of businesses is actually communications, 81 00:03:37,190 --> 00:03:38,710 Speaker 2: through branding and through marketing. 82 00:03:39,050 --> 00:03:43,630 Speaker 2: And that's something that I immensely enjoyed even as a consumer. 83 00:03:43,639 --> 00:03:45,710 Speaker 2: And that was how my career plan started. 84 00:03:45,889 --> 00:03:49,270 Speaker 1: Yeah. And then obviously either that derailed or that changed 85 00:03:49,279 --> 00:03:52,630 Speaker 1: drastically because now you are helping people with their career plans. 86 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:53,889 Speaker 1: How did that change? 87 00:03:53,899 --> 00:03:57,169 Speaker 2: Actually, things don't always go according to plan. At the 88 00:03:57,179 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 2: height of my marketing career, I was working with a 89 00:04:00,369 --> 00:04:01,460 Speaker 2: global company 90 00:04:01,625 --> 00:04:04,085 Speaker 2: at that point in time, that was a fortune 100 company. 91 00:04:04,255 --> 00:04:06,645 Speaker 2: And on my very last corporate role, I was taking 92 00:04:06,654 --> 00:04:10,324 Speaker 2: care of 15 sales companies in the region which in 93 00:04:10,335 --> 00:04:14,455 Speaker 2: turn actually had a footprint of over 70 countries. I 94 00:04:14,464 --> 00:04:17,045 Speaker 2: travel a lot. These were the days long before COVID. 95 00:04:17,053 --> 00:04:20,744 Speaker 2: So video conferencing wasn't quite a thing. And you had 96 00:04:20,755 --> 00:04:24,075 Speaker 2: a new product when you had a new market to conquer, 97 00:04:24,519 --> 00:04:26,559 Speaker 2: you really need to be out there on the road. 98 00:04:27,029 --> 00:04:30,570 Speaker 2: And I traveled, I could say a good 60 to 70% 99 00:04:30,579 --> 00:04:31,589 Speaker 2: of the time. 100 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,058 Speaker 1: So there must have been quite hard on your personal life. 101 00:04:34,269 --> 00:04:37,619 Speaker 2: So it became very difficult for my wife and my 102 00:04:37,630 --> 00:04:40,420 Speaker 2: child and I don't see a lot of both of them. 103 00:04:41,149 --> 00:04:44,339 Speaker 2: And on one of those occasions, I was back in 104 00:04:44,350 --> 00:04:47,299 Speaker 2: Global HQ receiving one of the Global Awards. And 105 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,769 Speaker 2: at the end of the night, I went back to 106 00:04:49,779 --> 00:04:52,230 Speaker 2: my hotel room and this was the days before, way 107 00:04:52,238 --> 00:04:55,049 Speaker 2: before whatsapp. But Skype has started so it was the 108 00:04:55,059 --> 00:04:57,419 Speaker 2: cheapest way to keep in touch with your family. 109 00:04:57,619 --> 00:04:57,809 Speaker 1: Yeah. 110 00:04:57,820 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: And bear in mind for people who don't know, you 111 00:04:59,890 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: still had to pay for Skype. Right. Some people take 112 00:05:02,488 --> 00:05:03,130 Speaker 1: that for granted 113 00:05:03,230 --> 00:05:04,700 Speaker 1: these days they just pick up the phone and then 114 00:05:04,709 --> 00:05:06,789 Speaker 1: they can get in touch with their loved ones. But 115 00:05:06,799 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: back then I remember you still had to pay for 116 00:05:09,170 --> 00:05:12,130 Speaker 1: Skype credits. So it's costly as well. But 117 00:05:12,140 --> 00:05:12,190 Speaker 2: it 118 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,739 Speaker 2: was still the cheapest way to keep in touch. My 119 00:05:14,750 --> 00:05:18,410 Speaker 2: daughter didn't quite talk a lot. She didn't speak much. 120 00:05:18,700 --> 00:05:20,929 Speaker 2: And my wife was saying that, hey, she talked a 121 00:05:20,940 --> 00:05:24,018 Speaker 2: lot today. So I was very curious. I was, what 122 00:05:24,029 --> 00:05:25,049 Speaker 2: did the little one say? 123 00:05:25,428 --> 00:05:28,368 Speaker 2: And this word stuck with me forever and changed my life. 124 00:05:28,540 --> 00:05:30,190 Speaker 2: She said that papa like to work and work and 125 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,609 Speaker 2: work and work. He doesn't like to come home anymore. 126 00:05:32,619 --> 00:05:35,690 Speaker 2: I see. I see. So you can't blame her because 127 00:05:35,700 --> 00:05:38,399 Speaker 2: when she sees me at home, the typical work day, 128 00:05:38,410 --> 00:05:41,308 Speaker 2: 250 emails on a weekday, on a weekend, I get 129 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,230 Speaker 2: a bit of discount 100 and 50. When I'm at 130 00:05:43,238 --> 00:05:45,959 Speaker 2: a workplace, you manage 10 time zones. You manage so 131 00:05:45,970 --> 00:05:49,950 Speaker 2: many people and you're always away from home. And that 132 00:05:49,959 --> 00:05:53,339 Speaker 2: drove home the message really hard and that's where life 133 00:05:53,350 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 2: had to change. I started up 134 00:05:54,945 --> 00:05:58,035 Speaker 2: asking myself what was the reason, the real reason behind 135 00:05:58,045 --> 00:06:01,024 Speaker 2: me working so hard other than my personal aspirations, it 136 00:06:01,035 --> 00:06:04,605 Speaker 2: was to give to my family, something had to change. 137 00:06:04,975 --> 00:06:08,125 Speaker 2: And that's where I pivoted away from marketing brands and 138 00:06:08,135 --> 00:06:10,914 Speaker 2: products and I marketed the most difficult product in the 139 00:06:10,924 --> 00:06:12,325 Speaker 2: world to sell human beings. 140 00:06:12,859 --> 00:06:15,829 Speaker 1: Ah, there you go. I think in telling your story, 141 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,579 Speaker 1: it really hit the nail on the head, which is 142 00:06:18,678 --> 00:06:21,679 Speaker 1: that people don't necessarily always have to have a plan 143 00:06:21,690 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: to earn more money or stay in a job or 144 00:06:23,850 --> 00:06:28,368 Speaker 1: be promoted. Plans change because your life changed. At that 145 00:06:28,380 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: point of time, you were dead and you wanted to 146 00:06:30,769 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: be home for your child. You didn't want to be 147 00:06:33,769 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 1: the absent parent. 148 00:06:35,250 --> 00:06:37,890 Speaker 1: So the career plan needs to also be part of 149 00:06:37,899 --> 00:06:40,260 Speaker 1: what you want out of life. And then it made 150 00:06:40,269 --> 00:06:43,010 Speaker 1: me also wonder, is it even necessary to have a plan? 151 00:06:43,238 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: And how should the planning look like? Because how far 152 00:06:45,928 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: can we realistically plan forward when we can't control a 153 00:06:48,649 --> 00:06:50,070 Speaker 1: lot of the factors moving ahead? 154 00:06:50,079 --> 00:06:50,290 Speaker 2: The 155 00:06:50,299 --> 00:06:53,130 Speaker 2: first thing to really address is what is a career 156 00:06:53,140 --> 00:06:54,950 Speaker 2: plan and what is not a career plan? 157 00:06:55,309 --> 00:06:57,950 Speaker 2: I think there's a bit of a hazy zone out 158 00:06:57,959 --> 00:07:01,579 Speaker 2: there because it's so new to most of us that 159 00:07:01,589 --> 00:07:04,570 Speaker 2: we either don't quite understand it or we see it 160 00:07:04,579 --> 00:07:07,390 Speaker 2: only in a certain way. Let's begin with the most obvious. 161 00:07:07,399 --> 00:07:09,179 Speaker 2: And that is once you have a plan, you can 162 00:07:09,190 --> 00:07:12,410 Speaker 2: stick to it and everything in life is settled. That's 163 00:07:12,420 --> 00:07:13,130 Speaker 2: not the case. 164 00:07:13,510 --> 00:07:16,450 Speaker 2: Having a career plan doesn't mean that you can actually 165 00:07:16,459 --> 00:07:19,079 Speaker 2: stick to the plan all the time. Now, then that 166 00:07:19,089 --> 00:07:22,019 Speaker 2: invites the other question. Then why do I want to plan? 167 00:07:22,029 --> 00:07:25,959 Speaker 2: Isn't planning supposed to make things clearer and easier for me? 168 00:07:25,970 --> 00:07:29,049 Speaker 2: And isn't a plan supposed to be followed? That's where 169 00:07:29,059 --> 00:07:32,510 Speaker 2: the confusion is. A career plan really is all about 170 00:07:32,519 --> 00:07:36,730 Speaker 2: starting with yourself. Draw three circles, the first circle right 171 00:07:36,739 --> 00:07:40,450 Speaker 2: in the middle, that's me or self draw another circle 172 00:07:40,459 --> 00:07:43,279 Speaker 2: out there and you will see your goals. 173 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,260 Speaker 2: Now, then you draw a larger circle encapsulating the other 174 00:07:47,269 --> 00:07:50,500 Speaker 2: two preceding circles there. And that is the market dynamics. 175 00:07:50,510 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: The big white world having a plan is not necessarily 176 00:07:54,450 --> 00:07:58,019 Speaker 2: having step one, step two, step three and a grand 177 00:07:58,029 --> 00:08:01,660 Speaker 2: outcome having a career plan is to have those three 178 00:08:01,670 --> 00:08:04,700 Speaker 2: elements in clear view as much as possible. 179 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:09,579 Speaker 2: And at all times, being aware of the interaction and 180 00:08:09,589 --> 00:08:13,089 Speaker 2: dynamism between all three of them that is yourself your 181 00:08:13,100 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: goals by and large what they are and the big 182 00:08:15,769 --> 00:08:19,209 Speaker 2: wide world out there opportunities, threats changes. 183 00:08:19,309 --> 00:08:22,109 Speaker 1: So you're describing it as a circle because things can 184 00:08:22,119 --> 00:08:22,260 Speaker 1: then 185 00:08:22,369 --> 00:08:25,269 Speaker 1: move within the circle. It's not exactly like a target 186 00:08:25,279 --> 00:08:26,329 Speaker 1: that you have to hit. 187 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,869 Speaker 2: Life is dynamic. Yeah. And in fact that outer circle 188 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:34,789 Speaker 2: of the external world also would include your life stage. 189 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:37,689 Speaker 2: I hit a life stage where I had to focus 190 00:08:37,700 --> 00:08:39,590 Speaker 2: on a certain area of focus 191 00:08:40,049 --> 00:08:44,098 Speaker 2: that life stage, actually compelled me to rethink about how 192 00:08:44,109 --> 00:08:46,879 Speaker 2: I want to shape my life and my work so 193 00:08:46,888 --> 00:08:49,989 Speaker 2: that they can both go in tandem and it can 194 00:08:49,999 --> 00:08:53,948 Speaker 2: be sustainable. Then again, that is a good lead into 195 00:08:53,958 --> 00:08:57,499 Speaker 2: what is the plan for now that we know how 196 00:08:57,508 --> 00:09:00,468 Speaker 2: a plan should look like, what makes up the plan, 197 00:09:00,989 --> 00:09:03,049 Speaker 2: what's the purpose of the plan? And the outcome of 198 00:09:03,059 --> 00:09:07,049 Speaker 2: a plan is for long term sustainability. That's the goal 199 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 1: it is rather than say, I want to be at 200 00:09:09,570 --> 00:09:12,459 Speaker 1: an MD level or I want to, I mean, that 201 00:09:12,469 --> 00:09:15,349 Speaker 1: goal may not be as sustainable as saying that, OK, 202 00:09:15,359 --> 00:09:18,119 Speaker 1: what is the purpose of work? Right? If it's to 203 00:09:18,130 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: take care of my family, then there is also a 204 00:09:19,849 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: more sustainable way of looking at it, right? Yeah, but 205 00:09:23,450 --> 00:09:26,409 Speaker 1: some people might argue that that is maybe for a 206 00:09:26,419 --> 00:09:28,510 Speaker 1: person who is in a very privileged situation. 207 00:09:28,799 --> 00:09:32,179 Speaker 1: If let's say your social economic background is not that 208 00:09:32,190 --> 00:09:35,900 Speaker 1: great and you don't really have the option of choosing 209 00:09:36,150 --> 00:09:40,039 Speaker 1: or even getting out of something that you don't enjoy. 210 00:09:40,429 --> 00:09:42,380 Speaker 1: What happens for this group of people? 211 00:09:42,830 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 2: Good question. Let me use an example that I hope 212 00:09:45,690 --> 00:09:48,609 Speaker 2: comes as close as to what you are describing. Most 213 00:09:48,619 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: people will think that career planning is a thing that 214 00:09:52,010 --> 00:09:54,950 Speaker 2: PM ETS could do better with or are in a 215 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:56,140 Speaker 2: better position to do 216 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,900 Speaker 2: because the general perception out there really is that PM 217 00:09:59,909 --> 00:10:04,890 Speaker 2: ETS has got more career options as they progress or 218 00:10:04,909 --> 00:10:09,219 Speaker 2: they are in need of making career decisions as they go. 219 00:10:09,659 --> 00:10:12,789 Speaker 2: And so if I am doing a very operational kind 220 00:10:12,799 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 2: of a work, I just need to stay, put my 221 00:10:15,650 --> 00:10:18,989 Speaker 2: head down and just go through the motion or put 222 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:20,380 Speaker 2: myself through the grind every day. 223 00:10:21,210 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: But if you look at the three components of career planning, 224 00:10:24,650 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 2: those three circles, even if the first two components don't change, 225 00:10:28,530 --> 00:10:32,140 Speaker 2: the third component is changing very rapidly. So if I 226 00:10:32,150 --> 00:10:35,239 Speaker 2: could give you a very simple example, like a retail assistant, 227 00:10:35,580 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 2: that external circle is changing rapidly. The work that a 228 00:10:39,770 --> 00:10:43,799 Speaker 2: retail assistant does today is not just capturing or just 229 00:10:43,809 --> 00:10:48,909 Speaker 2: attending to customers with simple inquiries or perhaps product demonstration. 230 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,059 Speaker 2: They may actually have to double up to do e 231 00:10:52,150 --> 00:10:57,619 Speaker 2: commerce fulfillment, hopping on to the retail brands IG account 232 00:10:57,630 --> 00:11:01,969 Speaker 2: and having to do IG updates and even cashing payment. 233 00:11:01,979 --> 00:11:04,390 Speaker 2: A lot of it has gone digital as well. It 234 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:06,869 Speaker 2: may look like on the surface that the retail assistant 235 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,719 Speaker 2: job doesn't need much planning. But the reality is this, 236 00:11:10,729 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 2: they are being forced to change and once there is 237 00:11:14,570 --> 00:11:16,210 Speaker 2: a change and there is an interactive 238 00:11:16,419 --> 00:11:19,690 Speaker 2: between any of these three elements. You need a plan, 239 00:11:20,179 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 2: you need some clarity and you need to do some homework. 240 00:11:24,469 --> 00:11:26,500 Speaker 1: I think what Chris touch on is a very important 241 00:11:26,510 --> 00:11:29,890 Speaker 1: part of career adapting, right? Our jobs are always shifting 242 00:11:29,900 --> 00:11:32,179 Speaker 1: and right now, the environment is fast changing. 243 00:11:32,530 --> 00:11:35,549 Speaker 1: So it becomes a necessity, right? Not just a luxury 244 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,549 Speaker 1: to do career planning. Are there may be perhaps downsides 245 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:40,799 Speaker 1: of over planning. Should we give ourselves a bit more 246 00:11:40,809 --> 00:11:40,919 Speaker 1: lee 247 00:11:41,250 --> 00:11:41,570 Speaker 2: there are all 248 00:11:41,580 --> 00:11:43,739 Speaker 2: kinds of people out there and sometimes we are one 249 00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:47,469 Speaker 2: of them ourselves. I think it really depends on the 250 00:11:47,479 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 2: individual's life stage and also the interaction of the individual's aspirations. 251 00:11:54,630 --> 00:11:56,590 Speaker 2: What's made available to the person? 252 00:11:56,909 --> 00:11:59,299 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people has been very inspired 253 00:11:59,309 --> 00:12:02,210 Speaker 2: as they journey through their life. They've got role models, 254 00:12:02,530 --> 00:12:06,179 Speaker 2: they've seen success stories, they've seen how people live to 255 00:12:06,190 --> 00:12:09,590 Speaker 2: the max in their life and they aspire to do so, 256 00:12:09,599 --> 00:12:11,570 Speaker 2: not just in their personal life but in their career 257 00:12:11,580 --> 00:12:12,130 Speaker 2: as well. 258 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:17,010 Speaker 2: And so for someone who is very proactive, it's inevitable 259 00:12:17,020 --> 00:12:19,929 Speaker 2: that a person may want to actually have certain kind 260 00:12:19,940 --> 00:12:23,859 Speaker 2: of visibility to certain kind of planning to say that 261 00:12:23,869 --> 00:12:25,380 Speaker 2: I want to have a road map to get to 262 00:12:25,390 --> 00:12:28,460 Speaker 2: from point A to point B I think that's nothing wrong. 263 00:12:28,739 --> 00:12:31,140 Speaker 2: But then there are also people who grew up in 264 00:12:31,150 --> 00:12:34,330 Speaker 2: the same environment that offers different makeup. They are a 265 00:12:34,340 --> 00:12:36,739 Speaker 2: lot more spontaneous. They may think that they, 266 00:12:36,820 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 2: I just want to go with the flow and see 267 00:12:38,890 --> 00:12:42,429 Speaker 2: what opportunity arises to help me get to where I 268 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 2: want to go. So there is no right and wrong. 269 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,450 Speaker 2: I think what we must be prepared for in terms 270 00:12:48,460 --> 00:12:53,140 Speaker 2: of planning is to ask ourselves, is that end goal sustainable? 271 00:12:53,169 --> 00:12:56,718 Speaker 2: Is that end goal feasible? Does it agree with your 272 00:12:56,729 --> 00:12:58,599 Speaker 2: life goals? Eventually? 273 00:12:58,619 --> 00:12:58,630 Speaker 1: I 274 00:12:58,770 --> 00:13:01,159 Speaker 1: love what Chris said because when we look inwards 275 00:13:01,549 --> 00:13:04,579 Speaker 1: and we develop that person rather than make ourselves conform 276 00:13:04,590 --> 00:13:07,340 Speaker 1: or try to fit in narrow definitions of success, I 277 00:13:07,349 --> 00:13:09,719 Speaker 1: think that's where we can really grow ourselves. I want 278 00:13:09,729 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: to pick up a point that you said earlier on 279 00:13:11,289 --> 00:13:14,690 Speaker 1: about try to get to your life goals. Right now, 280 00:13:14,859 --> 00:13:17,609 Speaker 1: when I was way younger, when I first started in 281 00:13:17,619 --> 00:13:20,590 Speaker 1: the workforce, I wouldn't have known what my life goal 282 00:13:20,599 --> 00:13:23,390 Speaker 1: was at that point of time. Even today, I would 283 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: say that I like to see things in seasons. So 284 00:13:26,530 --> 00:13:27,010 Speaker 1: I don't really, 285 00:13:27,119 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: we have a particular life goal to try and career 286 00:13:29,969 --> 00:13:33,569 Speaker 1: plan towards what do you say to people who are young? 287 00:13:33,630 --> 00:13:36,010 Speaker 1: They come with no idea of what that life goal 288 00:13:36,020 --> 00:13:36,419 Speaker 1: is 289 00:13:36,429 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 2: instead of looking at defining what life goals are, it 290 00:13:40,450 --> 00:13:44,179 Speaker 2: may be more productive to look at your life stage, 291 00:13:44,349 --> 00:13:47,950 Speaker 2: that life goal can be an evolving and moving target 292 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,090 Speaker 2: or it can never be properly described. I mean, I 293 00:13:51,099 --> 00:13:52,500 Speaker 2: know a lot of interesting people 294 00:13:52,890 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 2: and at the age of 5060 they still don't quite 295 00:13:55,690 --> 00:13:59,140 Speaker 2: have a very clear life goal. But if you ask them, 296 00:13:59,150 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: if they were happy with what they are doing, you 297 00:14:01,090 --> 00:14:02,849 Speaker 2: will lose sleep because they will keep you awake the entire, 298 00:14:03,849 --> 00:14:05,489 Speaker 1: yeah, they don't have to have a life goal. They 299 00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:07,770 Speaker 1: don't really have a career plan. They just enjoy what 300 00:14:07,780 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 1: they're doing and that's kind of enough. Right. 301 00:14:09,690 --> 00:14:12,299 Speaker 2: So, the point here really is that if you went 302 00:14:12,309 --> 00:14:14,330 Speaker 2: a little bit further with such people and you ask 303 00:14:14,340 --> 00:14:15,830 Speaker 2: them the correct questions, 304 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,799 Speaker 2: somehow there is a mutual support or there is actually 305 00:14:20,809 --> 00:14:24,340 Speaker 2: at least there exists no major conflict between their life stage. 306 00:14:24,349 --> 00:14:28,419 Speaker 2: Need to do, have to do with what they want 307 00:14:28,429 --> 00:14:31,260 Speaker 2: to do at their career or at least in their workplace, 308 00:14:31,719 --> 00:14:35,419 Speaker 2: they kind of like support each other. I think to 309 00:14:35,429 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 2: better answer this question, I will pick up on the 310 00:14:37,849 --> 00:14:40,739 Speaker 2: point of what Jarrod said just now about the self discovery, 311 00:14:40,750 --> 00:14:41,580 Speaker 2: the self knowing 312 00:14:42,239 --> 00:14:44,820 Speaker 2: the most common cause of unhappiness for most people at 313 00:14:45,169 --> 00:14:49,580 Speaker 2: the workplace or throughout the career journey is a misalignment 314 00:14:49,590 --> 00:14:56,510 Speaker 2: of their personality, their preferred work behavior, their interests, their beliefs, 315 00:14:56,650 --> 00:14:59,789 Speaker 2: their values with what they are doing day in, day 316 00:14:59,799 --> 00:15:03,409 Speaker 2: out on their work or at a job. Now, career 317 00:15:03,419 --> 00:15:07,179 Speaker 2: planning like a little bit like life planning begins with 318 00:15:07,190 --> 00:15:08,210 Speaker 2: knowing yourself. 319 00:15:08,929 --> 00:15:12,119 Speaker 2: So contrary to what a lot of people actually will 320 00:15:12,130 --> 00:15:16,710 Speaker 2: imagine what career planning is, is about me making the 321 00:15:16,719 --> 00:15:20,469 Speaker 2: next move on my chess board. So it's about me 322 00:15:20,479 --> 00:15:23,330 Speaker 2: making a big change and this big change has got 323 00:15:23,340 --> 00:15:27,119 Speaker 2: to drive certain kind of outcome for me. Yeah, nothing 324 00:15:27,130 --> 00:15:31,150 Speaker 2: wrong in that But before you actually embark on diving 325 00:15:31,159 --> 00:15:33,710 Speaker 2: into the big wide world out there, 326 00:15:34,030 --> 00:15:38,270 Speaker 2: career planning actually begins with you prying open that personal 327 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:43,049 Speaker 2: war chest of yours and rediscover. What's in a war chest? 328 00:15:43,059 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 2: What are you made of? What are your interests? What 329 00:15:46,210 --> 00:15:49,159 Speaker 2: are your values? What's your value proposition? What are your 330 00:15:49,169 --> 00:15:53,450 Speaker 2: strengths because the possibility out there is endless? But is 331 00:15:53,460 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 2: it something that will be sustainable or would it be 332 00:15:56,289 --> 00:15:58,330 Speaker 2: something that's gonna go against your grain? 333 00:15:58,679 --> 00:16:01,309 Speaker 2: You wouldn't know until you're in it? So are you 334 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:05,119 Speaker 2: taking a gamble by moving out into the big open 335 00:16:05,130 --> 00:16:09,659 Speaker 2: world before you actually check out your watches? To know 336 00:16:09,669 --> 00:16:13,909 Speaker 2: what are the pivotable possibilities that will come closest to 337 00:16:13,919 --> 00:16:18,650 Speaker 2: give you the maximum opportunity for success or continuity? I 338 00:16:18,669 --> 00:16:21,419 Speaker 1: build on what Chris said right? Very often if you 339 00:16:21,429 --> 00:16:24,700 Speaker 1: tell someone as a career counselor, career coach that oh, ok. 340 00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:26,599 Speaker 1: There are these three jobs that you can aim for. 341 00:16:26,609 --> 00:16:27,859 Speaker 1: They will be best suitable for you. 342 00:16:28,299 --> 00:16:30,309 Speaker 1: The first question you might think about is how come 343 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,380 Speaker 1: these three jobs and how much would they have to 344 00:16:32,450 --> 00:16:34,599 Speaker 1: be paid? How did you get to this conclusion that 345 00:16:34,609 --> 00:16:36,989 Speaker 1: these three jobs would be? For me, the question will 346 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,859 Speaker 1: bring very clearly and loudly if they didn't explore that 347 00:16:39,869 --> 00:16:42,710 Speaker 1: war chest, if today they are very self aware, they 348 00:16:42,719 --> 00:16:45,250 Speaker 1: could start to see, ah, I understand why these three 349 00:16:45,260 --> 00:16:48,599 Speaker 1: came about. I understand why these would be suitable options 350 00:16:48,609 --> 00:16:50,659 Speaker 1: for me. But if they didn't know, then it would 351 00:16:50,669 --> 00:16:53,419 Speaker 1: seem very cold. It's like a cold recommendation and it 352 00:16:53,429 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: will not resonate with them. But I think some people 353 00:16:55,530 --> 00:16:56,679 Speaker 1: would also say that 354 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,469 Speaker 1: I can be very introspective. I can look into this 355 00:16:59,479 --> 00:17:02,299 Speaker 1: war chest that you are describing and I still don't 356 00:17:02,309 --> 00:17:05,430 Speaker 1: really know what I would be interested in. It's not 357 00:17:05,439 --> 00:17:08,859 Speaker 1: my identity, you know. So then if that's the case 358 00:17:08,869 --> 00:17:12,050 Speaker 1: for them, the more measurable metric is if they are 359 00:17:12,060 --> 00:17:14,459 Speaker 1: being valued in the workplace. So if I get a 360 00:17:14,469 --> 00:17:17,859 Speaker 1: promotion or if I get a pay raise, uh these 361 00:17:17,869 --> 00:17:18,010 Speaker 1: sort of 362 00:17:18,133 --> 00:17:21,092 Speaker 1: metrics how they plan for their career are these sort 363 00:17:21,103 --> 00:17:22,082 Speaker 1: of things that they can hold 364 00:17:22,093 --> 00:17:22,552 Speaker 1: on to. 365 00:17:22,561 --> 00:17:28,142 Speaker 2: You definitely can't ignore such milestones because they add to self-recognition, 366 00:17:28,152 --> 00:17:31,613 Speaker 2: they add to gratification and they add to your self 367 00:17:31,692 --> 00:17:35,483 Speaker 2: image of who you are and definitely it is a 368 00:17:35,493 --> 00:17:39,151 Speaker 2: positive thing. But how often does that occur? Whereas 369 00:17:39,265 --> 00:17:41,715 Speaker 2: if you compare that with the every day, the X 370 00:17:41,725 --> 00:17:45,475 Speaker 2: number of hours that you are at work and you 371 00:17:45,484 --> 00:17:49,525 Speaker 2: are seeing the same people over and over again and 372 00:17:49,536 --> 00:17:52,735 Speaker 2: you have difficulty working with those people or perhaps the 373 00:17:52,744 --> 00:17:56,446 Speaker 2: industry you're in disagrees or you are in disagreement with 374 00:17:56,455 --> 00:17:58,754 Speaker 2: the way that the industry operates because you got certain 375 00:17:58,765 --> 00:18:00,316 Speaker 2: beliefs and you got certain values. 376 00:18:01,069 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 2: How long can that sustain? Yeah. 377 00:18:03,010 --> 00:18:05,010 Speaker 1: But then you are asking to check so many boxes 378 00:18:05,020 --> 00:18:07,479 Speaker 1: at one time, I have to have good colleagues. The 379 00:18:07,489 --> 00:18:09,420 Speaker 1: company has to have the right values with me. I 380 00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:11,790 Speaker 1: have to find value in the job. I have to 381 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,410 Speaker 1: get promotion every say, hopefully five years, I'll tell you like, 382 00:18:15,420 --> 00:18:16,390 Speaker 1: Gen Z will probably 383 00:18:16,505 --> 00:18:19,364 Speaker 1: be just be like as long as one box doesn't check, 384 00:18:19,375 --> 00:18:21,925 Speaker 1: I'm checking out of here. So how, what then do 385 00:18:21,935 --> 00:18:24,364 Speaker 1: you think it's a feasible plan for them? 386 00:18:24,375 --> 00:18:26,775 Speaker 2: Interesting that you brought out Gen Zs in the work 387 00:18:26,785 --> 00:18:30,204 Speaker 2: that I do. We do career guidance, career planning with 388 00:18:30,214 --> 00:18:34,994 Speaker 2: people who are keen on getting help. A large majority 389 00:18:35,005 --> 00:18:37,685 Speaker 2: of the people that comes through my doors are Gen 390 00:18:37,694 --> 00:18:38,004 Speaker 2: Z 391 00:18:38,290 --> 00:18:42,949 Speaker 2: and they are very curious about themselves. They are curious 392 00:18:42,959 --> 00:18:46,530 Speaker 2: about whether they can actually go the long haul 393 00:18:47,219 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 2: and they are very ready to listen to what you 394 00:18:52,369 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 2: can actually tell them about themselves that they do not 395 00:18:54,770 --> 00:18:58,579 Speaker 2: know about. Traditionally, the appetite was how much money can 396 00:18:58,589 --> 00:19:01,219 Speaker 2: I make out of this? It has now shifted to 397 00:19:01,229 --> 00:19:03,780 Speaker 2: a little bit more of how happy can I actually 398 00:19:03,790 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 2: do this? How much meaning can it bring to me 399 00:19:07,550 --> 00:19:11,869 Speaker 2: slowly? The conversation is now shifting more towards whether it 400 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:13,329 Speaker 2: is actually for me. Yeah. 401 00:19:13,339 --> 00:19:15,369 Speaker 1: And they also want the sense of purpose and their 402 00:19:15,380 --> 00:19:17,530 Speaker 1: identification with the work that they are doing. They don't 403 00:19:17,540 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: want to feel like they're just clocking in hours. Gen Z, 404 00:19:20,130 --> 00:19:22,670 Speaker 1: they are more purpose driven. They want to see impact, 405 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: they want to see their contributions, being acknowledged it everything, right. 406 00:19:26,670 --> 00:19:29,209 Speaker 1: So I think this just means that there's even more 407 00:19:29,219 --> 00:19:30,250 Speaker 1: need for career planning. 408 00:19:30,619 --> 00:19:33,290 Speaker 1: Companies will need to start to shift towards helping their 409 00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:36,089 Speaker 1: employees start to think about how do we engage you 410 00:19:36,099 --> 00:19:38,890 Speaker 1: so that you want to continue working in this company cultures, 411 00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:41,540 Speaker 1: we have to change management styles, we have to change policies, 412 00:19:41,550 --> 00:19:43,390 Speaker 1: we have to change. So when we think about career 413 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,319 Speaker 1: planning earlier on, we've been talking about it as an 414 00:19:45,329 --> 00:19:49,409 Speaker 1: individual perspective, I think even as from a stakeholder angle, 415 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,239 Speaker 1: there's a lot that companies could do more to support 416 00:19:52,250 --> 00:19:54,479 Speaker 1: all employees in their career planning. Yeah. 417 00:19:54,744 --> 00:19:56,554 Speaker 1: And then we go to the other end of the spectrum. 418 00:19:56,564 --> 00:19:58,925 Speaker 1: So some of my colleagues, they are quite close to 419 00:19:58,935 --> 00:20:02,645 Speaker 1: retirement age or they are already considering retirement because they 420 00:20:02,655 --> 00:20:05,594 Speaker 1: have already paid off their home loans, their kids are 421 00:20:05,604 --> 00:20:08,854 Speaker 1: already working or some of them, they can't wait to retire, 422 00:20:08,864 --> 00:20:10,915 Speaker 1: travel the world. Then there are others who are a 423 00:20:10,925 --> 00:20:14,185 Speaker 1: bit uncertain about their life after retirement. So there's, there's 424 00:20:14,194 --> 00:20:17,313 Speaker 1: hardly I would say left to plan for their careers. 425 00:20:17,324 --> 00:20:18,645 Speaker 1: Am I right or am I wrong? 426 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,379 Speaker 2: Ok. This is where planning means a totally whole different 427 00:20:22,390 --> 00:20:25,409 Speaker 2: thing altogether. But I think the fundamentals are still the same. 428 00:20:25,790 --> 00:20:28,420 Speaker 2: Yeah, you may have less to do because you are 429 00:20:28,430 --> 00:20:33,179 Speaker 2: less engaged by an institution. But your life carries on 430 00:20:33,439 --> 00:20:37,209 Speaker 2: pre retirement actually is an interesting phase because I think 431 00:20:37,219 --> 00:20:40,689 Speaker 2: it's where you have spent your whole life perfecting your trade, 432 00:20:40,979 --> 00:20:44,569 Speaker 2: perfecting your skills and you've got a lot to offer. 433 00:20:44,660 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 2: So the individual that sees value in passing on and 434 00:20:49,369 --> 00:20:54,150 Speaker 2: grooming the future generation would still enjoy the opportunity. There's 435 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:55,530 Speaker 2: still a lot of things to be done. 436 00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:59,500 Speaker 2: But whether the person actually sees that it is something 437 00:20:59,510 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 2: that she or he wants to do that goes down 438 00:21:02,010 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 2: to the individual. 439 00:21:03,569 --> 00:21:06,389 Speaker 1: So for somebody in that age group, maybe that career 440 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,669 Speaker 1: plan is to be good mentors in the 441 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: workplace. 442 00:21:09,369 --> 00:21:11,479 Speaker 2: That could be a possibility. Definitely, 443 00:21:11,569 --> 00:21:11,819 Speaker 1: if 444 00:21:11,829 --> 00:21:14,420 Speaker 1: there's something you could have done differently to 445 00:21:14,535 --> 00:21:17,004 Speaker 1: the way you have planned your career, what would you 446 00:21:17,015 --> 00:21:18,415 Speaker 1: have told your younger self? 447 00:21:18,425 --> 00:21:18,435 Speaker 2: I 448 00:21:18,444 --> 00:21:20,285 Speaker 2: may not change a lot of things because I have 449 00:21:20,295 --> 00:21:24,005 Speaker 2: always remained very open to possibilities. That's one but the 450 00:21:24,015 --> 00:21:27,285 Speaker 2: one thing that I may actually do a lot intensively 451 00:21:27,405 --> 00:21:31,614 Speaker 2: is to expand my personal network because of the nature 452 00:21:31,625 --> 00:21:34,524 Speaker 2: of my work, I travel a lot that was actually 453 00:21:34,535 --> 00:21:37,834 Speaker 2: working against me when I wanted to refocus on finding 454 00:21:37,844 --> 00:21:40,994 Speaker 2: opportunities back in Singapore. That's contextual to me. 455 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,540 Speaker 2: But I have that revelation because I look around me 456 00:21:44,619 --> 00:21:47,109 Speaker 2: and I notice that a lot of people in my 457 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:52,140 Speaker 2: generation were very happy with a clear step by step, 458 00:21:52,150 --> 00:21:55,650 Speaker 2: visible progression in their life. They didn't quite bother about 459 00:21:55,660 --> 00:21:58,750 Speaker 2: building a network and I thought that the world is 460 00:21:58,760 --> 00:21:59,670 Speaker 2: very different now, 461 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,550 Speaker 2: that would have been something clearly that I would have 462 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:03,500 Speaker 2: done differently. 463 00:22:04,089 --> 00:22:08,670 Speaker 1: Thanks for sharing. What is so personal to yourself? Just 464 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,208 Speaker 1: reflecting for myself in different seasons of my life. I've 465 00:22:11,219 --> 00:22:13,839 Speaker 1: gone from not having a career plan, just a general 466 00:22:13,849 --> 00:22:16,790 Speaker 1: direction to roughly having one because now that I have 467 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: a family that relies on me, I want to try 468 00:22:19,569 --> 00:22:21,819 Speaker 1: and keep it loose. Thank you so much for giving 469 00:22:21,829 --> 00:22:23,229 Speaker 1: us so much to think about. It's been fun. 470 00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:24,180 Speaker 2: Thank you, Chris. 471 00:22:24,189 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: Thank you. 472 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,300 Speaker 1: Hello, it's Tiffany and Gerald. And we're back with our 473 00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:34,260 Speaker 1: ask me anything segment. 474 00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:37,010 Speaker 1: Have you found this segment useful so far? Let us know, 475 00:22:37,020 --> 00:22:38,849 Speaker 1: write to us so you can write to us at 476 00:22:38,859 --> 00:22:42,319 Speaker 1: CN A podcast at mediacorp.com dot SG or drop us 477 00:22:42,329 --> 00:22:44,739 Speaker 1: a comment on Spotify or youtube and that's where you 478 00:22:44,750 --> 00:22:47,300 Speaker 1: can find the video version of this. Remember to keep 479 00:22:47,310 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: sending your questions to us. So today's question, Gerald is 480 00:22:50,369 --> 00:22:53,239 Speaker 1: one that I think many people face in the workplace, 481 00:22:53,250 --> 00:22:57,089 Speaker 1: not just managers, but even among coworkers. And that question is, 482 00:22:57,099 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: how do I deliver work, performance related feedback 483 00:23:00,979 --> 00:23:03,420 Speaker 1: to a colleague or a staff who might be a 484 00:23:03,430 --> 00:23:06,780 Speaker 1: bit sensitive or defensive? Ok, I tell you why I 485 00:23:06,790 --> 00:23:09,260 Speaker 1: say that because I have had to give feedback before 486 00:23:09,270 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: and I always make sure not to be rude or dismissive. 487 00:23:12,369 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: It's not my nature, but I will admit that I 488 00:23:14,890 --> 00:23:17,369 Speaker 1: kind of go straight to the point. I don't like 489 00:23:17,380 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: to beat around the bush and say things like I think, 490 00:23:20,369 --> 00:23:22,699 Speaker 1: I hope you don't mind me saying this if it 491 00:23:22,709 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: is OK with you. 492 00:23:24,310 --> 00:23:27,728 Speaker 1: But what if my colleague or staff is perhaps more 493 00:23:27,739 --> 00:23:31,719 Speaker 1: sensitive than me? How can I deliver effective feedback? Which 494 00:23:31,729 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: doesn't make me cringe. I think this is something that 495 00:23:35,130 --> 00:23:38,479 Speaker 1: we have to handle sensitively when it comes to feedback. 496 00:23:38,489 --> 00:23:41,030 Speaker 1: Some of us like it, some of us don't. I 497 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,239 Speaker 1: know of people who consume feedback like it's breakfast, they 498 00:23:43,250 --> 00:23:44,780 Speaker 1: want feedback all the time. But then there are people 499 00:23:44,790 --> 00:23:46,810 Speaker 1: who really don't want that. And if you have a 500 00:23:46,819 --> 00:23:50,250 Speaker 1: colleague or direct report, that's just more sensitive to feedback, 501 00:23:50,260 --> 00:23:50,750 Speaker 1: it just makes it 502 00:23:50,814 --> 00:23:53,805 Speaker 1: really harder. The first thing that we need to remember 503 00:23:53,814 --> 00:23:55,415 Speaker 1: or we need to know is when we are giving 504 00:23:55,425 --> 00:23:57,944 Speaker 1: feedback to a colleague who's a little sensitive, don't put 505 00:23:57,954 --> 00:24:00,935 Speaker 1: it on yourselves to reduce their defensiveness. I'll try to 506 00:24:00,944 --> 00:24:03,323 Speaker 1: make them less sensitive. We don't have the authority or 507 00:24:03,334 --> 00:24:05,794 Speaker 1: the ability to do so you can't force them. But 508 00:24:05,805 --> 00:24:07,145 Speaker 1: what we could do is we try to help them 509 00:24:07,155 --> 00:24:09,025 Speaker 1: to see that we're trying to help them become better. 510 00:24:09,145 --> 00:24:11,375 Speaker 1: So if you had to deliver some feedback to someone 511 00:24:11,385 --> 00:24:14,505 Speaker 1: who's like that, maybe you could start off by really 512 00:24:14,515 --> 00:24:17,234 Speaker 1: trying to stay curious to hear the other person's view. 513 00:24:17,479 --> 00:24:19,489 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us, we straight away think 514 00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:21,939 Speaker 1: of it as, oh, how should I avoid the landmines? 515 00:24:21,949 --> 00:24:23,839 Speaker 1: And what should I start to say? Or not say, 516 00:24:24,050 --> 00:24:25,859 Speaker 1: I think maybe we need to reframe our thinking a 517 00:24:25,869 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: little bit, have a more of a mutual learning mindset. 518 00:24:28,770 --> 00:24:31,109 Speaker 1: Take it as an opportunity to hear what the other 519 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,859 Speaker 1: person has to say regarding the situation that you want 520 00:24:33,869 --> 00:24:36,969 Speaker 1: to talk about, right? Besides getting your point across to them, 521 00:24:36,979 --> 00:24:38,300 Speaker 1: you want to also give them the room 522 00:24:38,589 --> 00:24:41,369 Speaker 1: about how they view the matter because when we approach 523 00:24:41,380 --> 00:24:43,729 Speaker 1: it that way, it is an opportunity to build better 524 00:24:43,739 --> 00:24:47,579 Speaker 1: understanding and collaboration. So really reframing our mindsets, right at 525 00:24:47,589 --> 00:24:50,290 Speaker 1: the start is pretty important. So how do I approach 526 00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: this potentially tricky conversation? Yeah, I think the first step 527 00:24:53,810 --> 00:24:56,129 Speaker 1: is to start to prepare the person for a little bit. 528 00:24:56,140 --> 00:24:58,409 Speaker 1: Make it a joint conversation. Don't take it as I 529 00:24:58,420 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: need to talk to you about something, make it sound 530 00:25:00,130 --> 00:25:02,329 Speaker 1: like it's something that both of you have a stake in. 531 00:25:02,530 --> 00:25:04,228 Speaker 1: So maybe you could say something like I would like 532 00:25:04,239 --> 00:25:06,929 Speaker 1: to share some observations with you on how the project 533 00:25:06,939 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: was handled and also learn from you on what you 534 00:25:09,290 --> 00:25:11,510 Speaker 1: experience so that we can find specific ways we can 535 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,430 Speaker 1: do things better together, right? And ask them, how does 536 00:25:14,439 --> 00:25:16,750 Speaker 1: that sound to you? We're giving them the option to 537 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,209 Speaker 1: engage in this conversation. Maybe if they don't want, they 538 00:25:19,219 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: can say I'm not ready for that and then that's OK. 539 00:25:21,329 --> 00:25:23,729 Speaker 1: But if they say yes, then that's an opportunity for 540 00:25:23,739 --> 00:25:26,869 Speaker 1: them to create some ownership over the conversation so that 541 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:27,510 Speaker 1: it doesn't become a one 542 00:25:27,655 --> 00:25:29,834 Speaker 1: traffic. I like that point, which is, don't just say 543 00:25:29,844 --> 00:25:33,323 Speaker 1: here are my observations, but you're also inviting them to 544 00:25:33,435 --> 00:25:36,103 Speaker 1: give their feedback about the situation. Yeah, we want them 545 00:25:36,114 --> 00:25:39,104 Speaker 1: at the start to know that this conversation is meaningful 546 00:25:39,114 --> 00:25:41,364 Speaker 1: to them as well. So in preparing them, if you 547 00:25:41,375 --> 00:25:43,214 Speaker 1: are telling them, do you want to have this conversation? 548 00:25:43,334 --> 00:25:45,244 Speaker 1: I think that's the start And then when you are 549 00:25:45,255 --> 00:25:47,685 Speaker 1: in the conversation itself, you could begin with asking them 550 00:25:47,694 --> 00:25:50,244 Speaker 1: how they want to receive the feedback. Many times when 551 00:25:50,255 --> 00:25:52,563 Speaker 1: we go into a conversation about feedback, 552 00:25:52,829 --> 00:25:55,209 Speaker 1: the manager or the person starts to think about, OK, 553 00:25:55,219 --> 00:25:57,810 Speaker 1: I need to say all the positive things first, then 554 00:25:57,819 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: later on try to find an opportunity to sleep in 555 00:25:59,579 --> 00:26:02,010 Speaker 1: the sandwich, start with the good and the bad, then 556 00:26:02,020 --> 00:26:03,869 Speaker 1: end with the good. I think you could use that 557 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,810 Speaker 1: but also perhaps giving the person some space to also ask, 558 00:26:06,819 --> 00:26:09,189 Speaker 1: is that how they want that feedback to be given? OK. 559 00:26:09,199 --> 00:26:11,458 Speaker 1: Not everybody wants something like that. Yes. Correct. So you 560 00:26:11,469 --> 00:26:13,479 Speaker 1: could share that. I wanted to share some observations and 561 00:26:13,489 --> 00:26:14,209 Speaker 1: feedback with you. 562 00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: And I really hope to make it a learning opportunity 563 00:26:16,290 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: for both of us, right? And I can start by 564 00:26:18,689 --> 00:26:21,479 Speaker 1: sharing some positives and some areas of strength that I 565 00:26:21,489 --> 00:26:24,150 Speaker 1: can see or perhaps even start with you, sharing your 566 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: own thoughts about this particular situation. What would you prefer, 567 00:26:27,699 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: I think giving people the option again is allowing them 568 00:26:30,569 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: to take more ownership 569 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,170 Speaker 1: so that they feel like this composition, they have a 570 00:26:34,180 --> 00:26:36,569 Speaker 1: stake in it because especially when we are dealing with 571 00:26:36,579 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: some sensitive topics or a person who is a bit 572 00:26:38,770 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: more sensitive, right? We want to make them feel less 573 00:26:41,410 --> 00:26:44,260 Speaker 1: defensive by letting have a choice. OK. So we get 574 00:26:44,270 --> 00:26:46,379 Speaker 1: to the tricky part of the conversation. How should I 575 00:26:46,390 --> 00:26:49,060 Speaker 1: do it? Should I use words? Like I think this 576 00:26:49,069 --> 00:26:52,540 Speaker 1: is my opinion only I feel should I be using 577 00:26:52,550 --> 00:26:55,219 Speaker 1: these words? You can use these words. But as much 578 00:26:55,229 --> 00:26:57,938 Speaker 1: as possible when you are delivering the actual feedback itself, 579 00:26:58,017 --> 00:27:00,008 Speaker 1: try to keep it short, keep it 2 to 3 580 00:27:00,017 --> 00:27:03,157 Speaker 1: sentences max and then ask the person for their views, 581 00:27:03,167 --> 00:27:05,498 Speaker 1: whether they agree or disagree with that. I think a 582 00:27:05,508 --> 00:27:08,027 Speaker 1: lot of managers, they try to skirt around the issue 583 00:27:08,047 --> 00:27:10,936 Speaker 1: too much and then the point gets lost, right? And 584 00:27:10,946 --> 00:27:13,407 Speaker 1: then a lot of fillers start to take the limelight. 585 00:27:13,598 --> 00:27:15,566 Speaker 1: What we really want to just say is to be 586 00:27:15,578 --> 00:27:18,978 Speaker 1: as objective as possible by pointing out the observable behaviors 587 00:27:18,988 --> 00:27:21,478 Speaker 1: or impact. You could say, I noticed you have only 588 00:27:21,488 --> 00:27:23,868 Speaker 1: been working on a project only whenever I asked about 589 00:27:23,878 --> 00:27:24,078 Speaker 1: it 590 00:27:24,306 --> 00:27:26,816 Speaker 1: and this has caused us missing some deadlines, you know, 591 00:27:26,826 --> 00:27:29,305 Speaker 1: what are your views about this? Ok. So keeping that 592 00:27:29,316 --> 00:27:32,625 Speaker 1: to be short allows the person to filter out whatever 593 00:27:32,635 --> 00:27:34,576 Speaker 1: is unnecessary and really get to the point as well 594 00:27:34,586 --> 00:27:36,765 Speaker 1: so they can address it. And of course, asking them 595 00:27:36,776 --> 00:27:38,885 Speaker 1: again for their views on it, it allows them to 596 00:27:38,895 --> 00:27:41,056 Speaker 1: have their perspective. And remember we talk about being a 597 00:27:41,066 --> 00:27:43,576 Speaker 1: curious mindset to learn, perhaps we can learn a lot 598 00:27:43,586 --> 00:27:46,325 Speaker 1: more from asking that particular question. And then how do 599 00:27:46,336 --> 00:27:49,775 Speaker 1: we end the conversation after we have asked for their feedback? 600 00:27:49,786 --> 00:27:50,215 Speaker 1: I think two, 601 00:27:50,504 --> 00:27:52,984 Speaker 1: one as you deliver this, there could be a response 602 00:27:53,163 --> 00:27:57,234 Speaker 1: of like maybe defensiveness or uneasiness. If you see that, 603 00:27:57,244 --> 00:27:59,572 Speaker 1: I think it's helpful for you to raise it up, 604 00:27:59,583 --> 00:28:02,734 Speaker 1: you could offer. I noticed maybe gone a little bit 605 00:28:02,744 --> 00:28:05,723 Speaker 1: quiet or maybe you look a bit uncomfortable. Tell me, 606 00:28:05,734 --> 00:28:08,513 Speaker 1: is this making you upset? OK. Tell me how you feel. OK. 607 00:28:08,523 --> 00:28:11,343 Speaker 1: I think that's the invitation to them to respond and 608 00:28:11,354 --> 00:28:12,933 Speaker 1: also for them to be self aware, maybe they don't 609 00:28:12,943 --> 00:28:14,973 Speaker 1: even know that they are exhibiting such behaviors. I, they 610 00:28:14,984 --> 00:28:16,353 Speaker 1: don't realize they are actually like from 611 00:28:17,482 --> 00:28:19,781 Speaker 1: Stargate you. Yeah. Correct. So I think we can point 612 00:28:19,791 --> 00:28:22,531 Speaker 1: it out gently to them. And of course, at some point, 613 00:28:22,541 --> 00:28:24,491 Speaker 1: you might want to also ask, is there anything that 614 00:28:24,501 --> 00:28:26,370 Speaker 1: you can do to support? Is there anything that you 615 00:28:26,381 --> 00:28:29,452 Speaker 1: might have contributed to even the situation where the person 616 00:28:29,462 --> 00:28:31,911 Speaker 1: might have felt that maybe you could have done something 617 00:28:31,921 --> 00:28:34,511 Speaker 1: to help me with this particular feedback, right? You might 618 00:28:34,521 --> 00:28:36,531 Speaker 1: want to ask them for that feedback for yourself. As 619 00:28:36,541 --> 00:28:39,082 Speaker 1: well so that you are also learning. So it could 620 00:28:39,092 --> 00:28:41,041 Speaker 1: sound nothing, something like let me know if there's anything 621 00:28:41,202 --> 00:28:42,491 Speaker 1: that I contributed towards 622 00:28:42,569 --> 00:28:45,530 Speaker 1: the issue so that I can change too. Ok. Yeah, 623 00:28:45,719 --> 00:28:47,790 Speaker 1: I think it's good that we kind of structure out 624 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,819 Speaker 1: the conversation so that it's easy for people to understand 625 00:28:50,839 --> 00:28:54,010 Speaker 1: what are some of these very usable actionable points? I 626 00:28:54,020 --> 00:28:56,300 Speaker 1: want to thank you for opening my mind. I will 627 00:28:56,310 --> 00:28:58,660 Speaker 1: try and then I'll let you know if it works well. 628 00:28:58,670 --> 00:29:01,689 Speaker 1: If you have tried some of Jal's tips, let us 629 00:29:01,699 --> 00:29:04,079 Speaker 1: know right to us. We are at CN A podcasts 630 00:29:04,089 --> 00:29:07,709 Speaker 1: at media corp.com dot SG. We're also on Spotify, youtube. 631 00:29:07,719 --> 00:29:08,599 Speaker 1: Leave a comment. 632 00:29:08,859 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: The team behind the work it podcast is Christina Robert, 633 00:29:12,170 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: Joan Chan, Jaini, Johari, Sa Wind and Sound Mixing is 634 00:29:17,050 --> 00:29:20,530 Speaker 1: by Carrie Lim. I'm Tiffany Ang and I'm Gerald. Wishing 635 00:29:20,540 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: you a good work week ahead.