1 00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:02,410 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:04,039 --> 00:00:06,479 Speaker 1: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to work it. We hope you've 3 00:00:06,489 --> 00:00:10,079 Speaker 1: been enjoying some of our discussions about career. Hi there, 4 00:00:10,090 --> 00:00:14,100 Speaker 1: Christina here. Ok. So today we're talking about older workers. 5 00:00:14,109 --> 00:00:16,129 Speaker 1: I sometimes don't know how to get my head around 6 00:00:16,139 --> 00:00:18,869 Speaker 1: my age. I genuinely feel as if I'm like only 7 00:00:18,879 --> 00:00:24,379 Speaker 1: 30 can do anything. Alas, I am quite firmly a 8 00:00:24,389 --> 00:00:28,860 Speaker 1: young senior past 50. Actually, I will join you very soon. 9 00:00:29,340 --> 00:00:31,159 Speaker 1: I know it's a cliche to say age is just 10 00:00:31,170 --> 00:00:33,580 Speaker 1: a number, but I think it's true. Look at Joe Biden. 11 00:00:33,590 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: He is past 80 he is president, our Prime Minister 12 00:00:37,250 --> 00:00:39,959 Speaker 1: PM Lee is also in his seventies. These people are 13 00:00:39,970 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: running entire countries. Indeed, they are. And sometimes I wonder 14 00:00:44,090 --> 00:00:46,589 Speaker 1: how they do it. And while we shouldn't take anything 15 00:00:46,598 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: away from these very accomplished people, my sense is that 16 00:00:50,409 --> 00:00:55,259 Speaker 1: the vast majority of older workers don't feel like they 17 00:00:55,270 --> 00:00:58,729 Speaker 1: want a job at full speed when they are 70 18 00:00:58,740 --> 00:01:02,349 Speaker 1: from the conversations that I've had, they worry about retirement 19 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,839 Speaker 1: about doing work that is not intense or at least 20 00:01:05,849 --> 00:01:08,650 Speaker 1: not as intense when they were in their thirties. And forties, 21 00:01:08,910 --> 00:01:11,589 Speaker 1: they can get quite tired and they don't really want 22 00:01:11,599 --> 00:01:14,830 Speaker 1: the hustle and bustle of deep work, Adrian. What do 23 00:01:14,839 --> 00:01:15,199 Speaker 1: you think? 24 00:01:15,709 --> 00:01:18,379 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I think that is generally the sense that 25 00:01:18,389 --> 00:01:20,529 Speaker 1: I get as well, which is why we have our 26 00:01:20,540 --> 00:01:23,910 Speaker 1: guests here today, James, root partner at Bain and Company. 27 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,569 Speaker 1: James is an author of a comprehensive report on the 28 00:01:27,580 --> 00:01:30,830 Speaker 1: rising importance of older workers and is here to give 29 00:01:30,839 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: us a peek into how we should be dealing with 30 00:01:33,370 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: older workers. Welcome to our podcast James. Thank you. Happy 31 00:01:36,690 --> 00:01:39,250 Speaker 1: to be here, James. Is it very rude to ask 32 00:01:39,260 --> 00:01:40,330 Speaker 1: people their age? 33 00:01:42,389 --> 00:01:45,099 Speaker 1: It depends what you're gonna ask them after that. I think. 34 00:01:46,660 --> 00:01:49,260 Speaker 1: OK, but tell me in your office in Hong Kong, 35 00:01:49,269 --> 00:01:51,900 Speaker 1: what is the age distribution like? Do you, do you 36 00:01:51,910 --> 00:01:54,089 Speaker 1: work with a lot of young people or there's a 37 00:01:54,099 --> 00:01:58,190 Speaker 1: good mix in general and in particular is a little 38 00:01:58,199 --> 00:02:00,220 Speaker 1: bit of company 39 00:02:01,919 --> 00:02:05,849 Speaker 1: is 27. Just think about the mixture of our recruits 40 00:02:05,860 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: from different campuses, undergraduate schools and MB A school. So, 41 00:02:09,339 --> 00:02:11,788 Speaker 1: but we're a bit unusual in that regard. I wanted 42 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,449 Speaker 1: to ask you because I actually took the quiz that 43 00:02:14,460 --> 00:02:18,948 Speaker 1: was on your website and I clocked in as a giver, Adrian, 44 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:19,740 Speaker 1: you were a 45 00:02:22,690 --> 00:02:25,770 Speaker 1: so I was reading that give us basically people who 46 00:02:25,779 --> 00:02:29,940 Speaker 1: are into mentoring, etcetera. 100% speaks to what I value 47 00:02:29,949 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: at this stage in my career. I value autonomy. I 48 00:02:33,250 --> 00:02:37,228 Speaker 1: value mastery of craft. For instance, in your report says 49 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,820 Speaker 1: older workers tend to fall into that category. Is that true? 50 00:02:40,830 --> 00:02:42,538 Speaker 1: And like, why is that important? 51 00:02:43,460 --> 00:02:47,339 Speaker 1: Probably makes sense very briefly for me to describe these categories. 52 00:02:47,479 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: Otherwise your listeners might just not have a clue what 53 00:02:49,809 --> 00:02:54,728 Speaker 1: we're talking about. We did major global research, 40,000 people, 54 00:02:54,889 --> 00:02:59,649 Speaker 1: 19 markets representing 75% of global GDP. So we don't 55 00:02:59,660 --> 00:03:01,119 Speaker 1: need to do any more markets. I think we've got 56 00:03:01,130 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: a very good picture of the the world of workers. 57 00:03:03,610 --> 00:03:08,038 Speaker 1: And this is older, younger, middle aged, wealthy, not so wealthy, 58 00:03:08,050 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 1: highly educated, not so educated men, women, urban, rural, a 59 00:03:11,369 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: really good representation of the working 60 00:03:13,449 --> 00:03:19,869 Speaker 1: population in all those countries. Six archetypes can capture everybody. Amazing. 61 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,009 Speaker 1: You might have assumed it would be so diverse that 62 00:03:23,020 --> 00:03:27,139 Speaker 1: we couldn't generalize. But six archetypes, two of them fundamentally 63 00:03:27,149 --> 00:03:31,609 Speaker 1: about relationships for the operator and then your archetype, the 64 00:03:31,619 --> 00:03:35,350 Speaker 1: givers a profile that loves to be able to help 65 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,830 Speaker 1: other people thrive at work. The second pair fundamentally about 66 00:03:39,839 --> 00:03:40,429 Speaker 1: learning 67 00:03:41,229 --> 00:03:44,830 Speaker 1: and the Explorer tries new things will make tradeoffs in 68 00:03:44,839 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: order to keep the freedom to keep trying new things. 69 00:03:47,449 --> 00:03:51,679 Speaker 1: And the artisan a little bit more self contained, wants 70 00:03:51,690 --> 00:03:53,949 Speaker 1: to be a master or a mistress of whatever their 71 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,250 Speaker 1: domain is and just get better and better at it. 72 00:03:56,750 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: And then the last pair mostly motivated by achievement, 73 00:04:02,190 --> 00:04:06,050 Speaker 1: the striver get the promotions and get the recognition of 74 00:04:06,059 --> 00:04:11,029 Speaker 1: titles and rewards and the pioneer also all about achievement. 75 00:04:11,039 --> 00:04:13,110 Speaker 1: But their definition of achievement is I want to change 76 00:04:13,119 --> 00:04:15,500 Speaker 1: the world in some ways. That's the six. Now to 77 00:04:15,509 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: your question, one thing that really jumps out from looking 78 00:04:20,769 --> 00:04:24,679 Speaker 1: at the data is as people age on average and 79 00:04:24,690 --> 00:04:28,290 Speaker 1: that's an important disclaimer. Do you tend to see more 80 00:04:28,299 --> 00:04:30,690 Speaker 1: givers and more artisans? 81 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,149 Speaker 1: So it makes perfect sense to me, our archetype system, 82 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:35,779 Speaker 1: unlike some other famous ones, 83 00:04:36,140 --> 00:04:40,219 Speaker 1: actually, it, it almost encourages the idea that people can 84 00:04:40,230 --> 00:04:44,929 Speaker 1: change their archetype over time. You're not a static animal, 85 00:04:45,178 --> 00:04:47,380 Speaker 1: not to say that some people are not, some people 86 00:04:47,390 --> 00:04:50,059 Speaker 1: may just be who they are their entire working life. 87 00:04:50,070 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: And that's OK. But this system of archetype allows people 88 00:04:53,890 --> 00:04:56,649 Speaker 1: to change and evolve. So you've become a giver at 89 00:04:56,670 --> 00:05:00,549 Speaker 1: somewhere 50 plus and that's not an uncommon evolution that 90 00:05:00,559 --> 00:05:02,989 Speaker 1: we see. So for those of you who are interested, 91 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:03,750 Speaker 1: you can Google 92 00:05:03,859 --> 00:05:08,850 Speaker 1: b inside six worker archetypes to get into this quiz. 93 00:05:08,859 --> 00:05:11,940 Speaker 1: We will leave the details in our show notes too 94 00:05:12,130 --> 00:05:14,149 Speaker 1: and tell us a bit more about what you found 95 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,368 Speaker 1: during this research. One of the thing that really pop 96 00:05:16,380 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: up to us is we can see Japan is quite 97 00:05:18,649 --> 00:05:21,980 Speaker 1: an extreme case, something like 40% of their workforce will 98 00:05:21,988 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: be 55 years old and older. Singapore has a bigger 99 00:05:25,769 --> 00:05:29,329 Speaker 1: foreign workforce to circumvent this situation, but the local call 100 00:05:29,339 --> 00:05:31,470 Speaker 1: will inevitably grow older. 101 00:05:31,738 --> 00:05:35,119 Speaker 1: Why should companies care about this right now. First of all, Adrian, 102 00:05:35,130 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: it is really good to see the Singapore government anticipate 103 00:05:39,130 --> 00:05:41,260 Speaker 1: in the way that they are with the change in 104 00:05:41,269 --> 00:05:46,488 Speaker 1: the mandatory statutory retirement age change in the reemployment contracting 105 00:05:46,850 --> 00:05:49,059 Speaker 1: age as well. They're trying to get ahead of something 106 00:05:49,070 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: that is coming to a movie theater near them soon. 107 00:05:52,899 --> 00:05:56,299 Speaker 1: They're not like Japan, they're not like Italy, France, a 108 00:05:56,309 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: number of the G7 countries which are already 109 00:06:00,359 --> 00:06:04,769 Speaker 1: a quarter of the workforce being 55 and over Singapore 110 00:06:04,779 --> 00:06:09,149 Speaker 1: anchors of 65 and over in the numbers you just described. 111 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,459 Speaker 1: So and by the end of this decade, those G7 112 00:06:12,470 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: countries I mentioned, we're going to be very close to 113 00:06:14,850 --> 00:06:18,488 Speaker 1: one quarter of the workforce 55 years and above. But 114 00:06:18,678 --> 00:06:22,219 Speaker 1: to come back around to your question, I come at 115 00:06:22,230 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: this whole topic 116 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,738 Speaker 1: through the lens of firms thinking about talent because that's 117 00:06:28,750 --> 00:06:31,109 Speaker 1: obviously what bin does. We're trying to help our clients 118 00:06:31,119 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: create and bank value. And to do that, you have 119 00:06:34,209 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: to immediately talk about your people and how you're going 120 00:06:36,769 --> 00:06:38,130 Speaker 1: to manage them and who they're going to be and 121 00:06:38,140 --> 00:06:42,519 Speaker 1: what skills they need. And number one firms by and 122 00:06:42,529 --> 00:06:46,299 Speaker 1: large don't look at their talent through the lens of 123 00:06:46,309 --> 00:06:47,260 Speaker 1: their motivations. 124 00:06:48,149 --> 00:06:51,589 Speaker 1: When they think about the inclusivity of their talent workforce. 125 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: These very different motivations that our research has uncovered are 126 00:06:56,209 --> 00:06:59,250 Speaker 1: not front and center. And it just seems to me 127 00:06:59,260 --> 00:07:02,049 Speaker 1: to be very odd bordering on ludicrous 128 00:07:02,329 --> 00:07:05,170 Speaker 1: to think that you could have one way to manage 129 00:07:05,178 --> 00:07:07,510 Speaker 1: your talent. One way to recruit one way to reward 130 00:07:07,519 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: one way to promote one way to do professional development. 131 00:07:10,119 --> 00:07:13,950 Speaker 1: One way to exit that could please people with such 132 00:07:13,959 --> 00:07:17,869 Speaker 1: wildly different motivations about why they go to work. That's 133 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,709 Speaker 1: one thing that got us into it. And the second, 134 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,890 Speaker 1: as we said just now is the demography uh because 135 00:07:23,899 --> 00:07:26,660 Speaker 1: it is gonna creep up not just in the developed markets, 136 00:07:26,670 --> 00:07:27,510 Speaker 1: but even in 137 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,410 Speaker 1: um developing middle income markets like China, if we were 138 00:07:31,420 --> 00:07:34,420 Speaker 1: having this conversation 10 years from now in China, this 139 00:07:34,429 --> 00:07:36,670 Speaker 1: would be close to, I don't know, crisis is too 140 00:07:36,679 --> 00:07:39,350 Speaker 1: strong a word, but this would be a very top one, 141 00:07:39,359 --> 00:07:42,470 Speaker 1: top three issue for most employers we can get into 142 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,359 Speaker 1: later on what I think firms can do. But that's 143 00:07:45,369 --> 00:07:48,230 Speaker 1: what got us to this topic. It's all about firms 144 00:07:48,239 --> 00:07:49,790 Speaker 1: and the talent that they need to succeed. 145 00:07:50,230 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, actually that is exactly my question, right? You you 146 00:07:53,649 --> 00:07:57,290 Speaker 1: were saying that stakeholders are not putting in enough into 147 00:07:57,299 --> 00:08:01,059 Speaker 1: integrating their older workers into their talent system. Ok, so 148 00:08:01,470 --> 00:08:06,410 Speaker 1: give us a sense of what a good company that does, right? What, 149 00:08:06,420 --> 00:08:08,970 Speaker 1: what does it look like? Because I think an example 150 00:08:08,980 --> 00:08:11,739 Speaker 1: would really help. First of all, let me say there 151 00:08:11,750 --> 00:08:15,649 Speaker 1: are plenty of companies who are doing really amazing stuff, 152 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,769 Speaker 1: but just on average, I find that the take up 153 00:08:18,779 --> 00:08:19,149 Speaker 1: rate 154 00:08:19,559 --> 00:08:23,250 Speaker 1: of focus on, let's call it the multigeneration workforce. It's 155 00:08:23,260 --> 00:08:26,410 Speaker 1: not just about older workers, it's about a workforce that's 156 00:08:26,420 --> 00:08:28,950 Speaker 1: young and middle age and this and that. There's not 157 00:08:28,959 --> 00:08:32,630 Speaker 1: that much. There's very few examples of people comprehensively working 158 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,119 Speaker 1: on programs, but there are some great stories and more 159 00:08:36,130 --> 00:08:38,179 Speaker 1: and more will appear every day. You won't be surprised 160 00:08:38,190 --> 00:08:39,609 Speaker 1: to know that the Japanese are 161 00:08:39,979 --> 00:08:44,939 Speaker 1: ahead to be. This is a top, top, one, top 162 00:08:44,948 --> 00:08:48,249 Speaker 1: three CEO G in many Japanese fs. So when you 163 00:08:48,258 --> 00:08:49,998 Speaker 1: look across corporate Japan 164 00:08:50,700 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: and whole infrastructure built alongside hr departments, just to manage 165 00:08:57,299 --> 00:09:00,919 Speaker 1: the older workers, you go to a company like Mitsubishi 166 00:09:00,929 --> 00:09:04,449 Speaker 1: calls it its career design center for 60 plus year 167 00:09:04,460 --> 00:09:07,390 Speaker 1: old workers. Tokyo Gas has one for 50 plus year 168 00:09:07,429 --> 00:09:12,130 Speaker 1: old workers offering counseling and job matching services and retraining. 169 00:09:12,140 --> 00:09:14,229 Speaker 1: So there's plenty of that. But what do, what do 170 00:09:14,239 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: I think we should do? It's three simple things, but 171 00:09:16,890 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 1: they're simple to say and hard to put in place. 172 00:09:19,210 --> 00:09:20,299 Speaker 1: Of course, like everything else. 173 00:09:20,719 --> 00:09:21,729 Speaker 1: One is 174 00:09:22,820 --> 00:09:26,189 Speaker 1: what we know about older workers is that they value 175 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:32,799 Speaker 1: different things in work than younger and middle aged workers, right? 176 00:09:32,809 --> 00:09:34,630 Speaker 1: So it turns out that when you look at our 177 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: research amazingly enough, practically all countries in the world. Not 178 00:09:39,690 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 1: quite all, there's a couple of exceptions. Practically all job categories, 179 00:09:43,719 --> 00:09:46,919 Speaker 1: practically all uh worker types or archetypes. 180 00:09:47,210 --> 00:09:49,380 Speaker 1: The number one thing they care about at work in 181 00:09:49,390 --> 00:09:53,169 Speaker 1: a job is good compensation. Let's call it like it is. Yeah, 182 00:09:53,179 --> 00:09:57,609 Speaker 1: absolutely clear cut in the data. Clear cut. You ask them, 183 00:09:57,619 --> 00:09:59,409 Speaker 1: what's the number one thing you ask them? What's the 184 00:09:59,419 --> 00:10:02,049 Speaker 1: top three thing? Good comp and good comp means I 185 00:10:02,059 --> 00:10:04,099 Speaker 1: want to be fairly paid for what I do. It 186 00:10:04,109 --> 00:10:07,140 Speaker 1: doesn't mean I need to be a millionaire. As you 187 00:10:07,150 --> 00:10:10,969 Speaker 1: see the data progress through the age categories. This is 188 00:10:10,979 --> 00:10:14,228 Speaker 1: around the world that good compensation 189 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:19,500 Speaker 1: gets overtaken by interesting work in older groups. You mean 190 00:10:19,510 --> 00:10:22,299 Speaker 1: in older workers, 55 and plus and then up to 191 00:10:22,309 --> 00:10:26,299 Speaker 1: 60 62 it really jumps out and two other things 192 00:10:26,309 --> 00:10:29,859 Speaker 1: spike up for older workers too. Autonomy. They really care 193 00:10:29,869 --> 00:10:35,719 Speaker 1: about autonomy and flexibility. If you're talking about me, right? 194 00:10:35,869 --> 00:10:37,909 Speaker 1: This is the beauty of this research. I have these 195 00:10:37,919 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: conversations and people go, yeah, that's me. 196 00:10:40,715 --> 00:10:43,464 Speaker 1: So I've got you frankly, you're a giver and you're 197 00:10:43,474 --> 00:10:46,544 Speaker 1: slightly older, not of course old, but you're slightly older. 198 00:10:46,554 --> 00:10:49,445 Speaker 1: You are demonstrating those traits that we see in the 199 00:10:49,455 --> 00:10:52,085 Speaker 1: data around the world. So I think what firms have 200 00:10:52,094 --> 00:10:54,284 Speaker 1: to do when they want to retain the people that 201 00:10:54,294 --> 00:10:57,804 Speaker 1: they got or recruit older workers into their firm because 202 00:10:57,815 --> 00:11:02,724 Speaker 1: they've lost many is develop propositions that meet those needs that, 203 00:11:02,734 --> 00:11:05,664 Speaker 1: that help people have work. That's interesting to them, 204 00:11:06,039 --> 00:11:08,979 Speaker 1: help them have more autonomy where they want it and 205 00:11:08,989 --> 00:11:12,900 Speaker 1: more flexibility where they want it. So for example, there's 206 00:11:12,909 --> 00:11:17,580 Speaker 1: a very interesting insurance company called Swiss re reinsurance company actually, 207 00:11:17,590 --> 00:11:20,390 Speaker 1: by the way, no surprise, insurance companies are figuring this 208 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,699 Speaker 1: out faster than many because they think about actuarial tables 209 00:11:23,710 --> 00:11:26,109 Speaker 1: all the time, right? They know about age, but Swiss 210 00:11:26,169 --> 00:11:30,530 Speaker 1: re looked at this question of can I phase retirement 211 00:11:30,539 --> 00:11:31,659 Speaker 1: in for my people? 212 00:11:32,419 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: And they came up with multiple options. I could go 213 00:11:34,890 --> 00:11:37,489 Speaker 1: 4.5 days a week, I go four days a week. 214 00:11:37,500 --> 00:11:39,369 Speaker 1: I could go part time. I could do flex time. 215 00:11:39,380 --> 00:11:41,949 Speaker 1: I could do job sharing. They got all these wonderful 216 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: choices that are very valuable along that flexibility dimension. 217 00:11:47,489 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: So they don't lose their talent. They keep them for 218 00:11:51,770 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: as long as they want to be working. It's a 219 00:11:55,409 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: win in a way, right? Because that's what I would want. 220 00:11:57,969 --> 00:12:00,090 Speaker 1: I would want. Choice. You want choice. You're in the 221 00:12:00,099 --> 00:12:03,510 Speaker 1: bull's eye, Christina because anything that allows you to phase 222 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,069 Speaker 1: down rather than 62nd birthday comes and bye bye. It's 223 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,859 Speaker 1: over people. They very 224 00:12:09,344 --> 00:12:11,505 Speaker 1: that the second thing is you've got to reskill, you 225 00:12:11,515 --> 00:12:15,034 Speaker 1: have to recognize that older workers will not always have 226 00:12:15,044 --> 00:12:18,155 Speaker 1: the skills that your firm needs at that time. And 227 00:12:18,164 --> 00:12:20,304 Speaker 1: at the same time, we have to recognize that some 228 00:12:20,315 --> 00:12:22,505 Speaker 1: of them may not be able to be res skilled 229 00:12:22,515 --> 00:12:25,344 Speaker 1: in the way that you need. I spent 30 years 230 00:12:25,354 --> 00:12:28,705 Speaker 1: as a cost controller. I'm not about to probably become 231 00:12:28,715 --> 00:12:31,885 Speaker 1: a research scientist. Let's be realistic about this, but you 232 00:12:31,895 --> 00:12:36,054 Speaker 1: can reskill people, particularly those who value the learning and 233 00:12:36,065 --> 00:12:37,304 Speaker 1: growth aspects of work. 234 00:12:37,789 --> 00:12:40,150 Speaker 1: And you need to find those people. You have them, 235 00:12:40,159 --> 00:12:42,770 Speaker 1: I guarantee you you have them in your workforce and 236 00:12:42,780 --> 00:12:47,510 Speaker 1: create training programs for them that help them pursue that 237 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,659 Speaker 1: interesting work ambition. So there's an amazing European it, services 238 00:12:51,669 --> 00:12:54,500 Speaker 1: company called Atos. They have created a program just recently. 239 00:12:54,510 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 1: All this stuff is recent for anybody who's 50 plus 240 00:12:57,849 --> 00:12:58,690 Speaker 1: in their firm. 241 00:12:59,349 --> 00:13:03,039 Speaker 1: There's a huge menu of training topics. They're all free. 242 00:13:03,489 --> 00:13:05,590 Speaker 1: You can choose what you want. And they also, and 243 00:13:05,599 --> 00:13:08,468 Speaker 1: I think this is brilliant. They use their older workers 244 00:13:08,479 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: as trainers so they train older workers to be trainers 245 00:13:11,210 --> 00:13:14,090 Speaker 1: of older workers and there's a very engaging aspect to it. 246 00:13:14,219 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: And then the last thing I would say is, and 247 00:13:16,409 --> 00:13:18,890 Speaker 1: this will sound a little bit hokey, but I believe 248 00:13:18,900 --> 00:13:22,530 Speaker 1: it is, you've got to respect and revere 249 00:13:23,119 --> 00:13:26,369 Speaker 1: what it is that the older workers bring. They don't 250 00:13:26,380 --> 00:13:29,659 Speaker 1: bring everything. It's not the same as a 25 35. 251 00:13:29,669 --> 00:13:33,909 Speaker 1: It's different, but they're more loyal. The date is 100% clear. 252 00:13:33,919 --> 00:13:37,130 Speaker 1: They're very much more loyal than young workers. They are 253 00:13:37,140 --> 00:13:41,460 Speaker 1: more satisfied with life in general and with work in general. 254 00:13:41,469 --> 00:13:44,140 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of positive benefits to having people 255 00:13:44,150 --> 00:13:47,209 Speaker 1: who are fundamentally satisfied at work. And, and so those 256 00:13:47,219 --> 00:13:48,940 Speaker 1: are things that you can tap into 257 00:13:49,539 --> 00:13:52,669 Speaker 1: in a multigeneration workforce. Uh I think Marriott does a 258 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,988 Speaker 1: great job of redefining jobs to help older workers stick around. 259 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,099 Speaker 1: BMW has built some programs in Europe to get retired 260 00:14:00,109 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 1: workers back into the factories, training and mentoring younger workers. 261 00:14:04,570 --> 00:14:07,710 Speaker 1: Part time is very thoughtful 262 00:14:07,844 --> 00:14:12,744 Speaker 1: creation of different training and engagement protocols for those workers 263 00:14:12,755 --> 00:14:15,164 Speaker 1: to interact and learn from each other. I think the 264 00:14:15,174 --> 00:14:17,275 Speaker 1: rub off factor is also important, right? Because you have 265 00:14:17,284 --> 00:14:20,664 Speaker 1: all these girls satisfied workers and you have so much experience, 266 00:14:20,835 --> 00:14:24,294 Speaker 1: the rub off effect across to younger generation, younger workers 267 00:14:24,304 --> 00:14:27,145 Speaker 1: and new workers will be tremendous as well if you 268 00:14:27,155 --> 00:14:31,265 Speaker 1: can create the right forums, Adrian, yes, let's be honest. 269 00:14:31,275 --> 00:14:34,304 Speaker 1: There is a lot of age discrimination at work. 270 00:14:34,849 --> 00:14:37,260 Speaker 1: It's just the truth. And that's despite the fact that 271 00:14:37,270 --> 00:14:40,669 Speaker 1: there's legislation in most countries against it. I there was 272 00:14:40,679 --> 00:14:43,109 Speaker 1: a study about Asia Pacific Singapore. This is a few 273 00:14:43,119 --> 00:14:46,739 Speaker 1: years ago by AD P the Payroll company Singapore actually 274 00:14:46,750 --> 00:14:50,090 Speaker 1: did not do well in that particular study, the higher 275 00:14:50,099 --> 00:14:54,869 Speaker 1: ranking companies for I have personally experienced age discrimination at work. 276 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,580 Speaker 1: But again, I'm not picking on Singapore. It's very common. 277 00:14:58,590 --> 00:14:59,630 Speaker 1: So I think it's real. 278 00:14:59,719 --> 00:15:03,859 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it happens. I wanted to ask you, James 279 00:15:03,869 --> 00:15:06,270 Speaker 1: is a little bit more about the money bit because 280 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,539 Speaker 1: you are saying, right, all these companies with their great 281 00:15:08,549 --> 00:15:12,530 Speaker 1: programs and their training and all these different types of work. 282 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,719 Speaker 1: My question always is and I experienced this in the 283 00:15:15,729 --> 00:15:18,179 Speaker 1: sense that not personally, but I've seen it with other 284 00:15:18,190 --> 00:15:21,359 Speaker 1: people when they want to say, do four times a 285 00:15:21,369 --> 00:15:24,659 Speaker 1: week or maybe take a lesser load or something, 286 00:15:25,559 --> 00:15:30,049 Speaker 1: they automatically earn less. I don't know, Adrian, this whole 287 00:15:30,059 --> 00:15:34,070 Speaker 1: recontract thing, but somehow you don't get, most instance, you 288 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,150 Speaker 1: don't really get a good deal. In fact, many people 289 00:15:36,159 --> 00:15:38,059 Speaker 1: would say that they get the shorter end of the 290 00:15:38,070 --> 00:15:41,500 Speaker 1: stick because there is just so much discount factor of 291 00:15:41,510 --> 00:15:43,190 Speaker 1: their original employment terms. 292 00:15:43,719 --> 00:15:46,729 Speaker 1: Yeah. Even though you may not actually be doing that 293 00:15:46,739 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: much less, right? You're still bringing value and quality to 294 00:15:50,530 --> 00:15:53,479 Speaker 1: the table, right? So how should we be looking at 295 00:15:53,489 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: recontract terms, et cetera, if I'm an older worker and 296 00:15:56,650 --> 00:15:58,719 Speaker 1: I want to talk to my hr what should I 297 00:15:58,729 --> 00:16:01,830 Speaker 1: be telling them? I think I will say that what 298 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: I understand about the Singapore model 299 00:16:04,039 --> 00:16:07,409 Speaker 1: makes it much more attractive than some for the worker. 300 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:12,590 Speaker 1: I'm quite familiar with Japan. Japan's been trying and failing 301 00:16:12,710 --> 00:16:16,809 Speaker 1: as a country to increase the statutory retirement age. They 302 00:16:16,820 --> 00:16:22,049 Speaker 1: finally got some legislation through recently to 61. But what 303 00:16:22,059 --> 00:16:24,190 Speaker 1: they used to do Japanese corporations, I'm going to come 304 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,979 Speaker 1: to Singapore in a minute, Japanese corporations, but we used 305 00:16:26,989 --> 00:16:29,929 Speaker 1: to lay everybody off at 60 then rehire them at 306 00:16:29,940 --> 00:16:31,849 Speaker 1: significantly lower rates. 307 00:16:32,489 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: So I, I think the way to think about it 308 00:16:34,289 --> 00:16:40,659 Speaker 1: sensibly is any wage adjustment of on recontacting should be. 309 00:16:40,669 --> 00:16:43,719 Speaker 1: There's some reasonable factors. You've got to think about productivity. 310 00:16:44,340 --> 00:16:45,919 Speaker 1: The job may be the same. But are you as 311 00:16:45,929 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: productive in the job. Depending on the type of work. 312 00:16:48,330 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: The answer could be. Absolutely. I am. Or maybe not. 313 00:16:51,450 --> 00:16:52,679 Speaker 1: It's a certain type of work that's 314 00:16:53,010 --> 00:16:55,549 Speaker 1: easier for a 40 year old. The duties that you 315 00:16:55,559 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: have responsibilities that you have and then the wage system. So, 316 00:16:59,030 --> 00:17:02,549 Speaker 1: I think, I often see firms saying I'm gonna recontract you, 317 00:17:02,750 --> 00:17:05,150 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna pay you what, maybe a younger person 318 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,198 Speaker 1: in the same job would earn, which may be less 319 00:17:07,209 --> 00:17:10,550 Speaker 1: just because they haven't have age related increases over time. 320 00:17:10,869 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: That's if you're doing the same job, if you're doing 321 00:17:12,569 --> 00:17:15,169 Speaker 1: a different job, I think it's even more complicated, but 322 00:17:15,180 --> 00:17:17,170 Speaker 1: it should take into account the value of that job 323 00:17:17,180 --> 00:17:21,130 Speaker 1: to the firm, the relevant experience that a particular employee 324 00:17:21,140 --> 00:17:24,229 Speaker 1: has in that new role now, other attributes as well. 325 00:17:24,239 --> 00:17:27,229 Speaker 1: But yeah, we walk into this at the moment assuming 326 00:17:27,239 --> 00:17:29,709 Speaker 1: we're going to earn less. I think you're right. That 327 00:17:29,719 --> 00:17:31,969 Speaker 1: is the kind of assumption. So let's challenge that. 328 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,629 Speaker 2: Hello everyone. My name is Steven Chow and I'm host 329 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,540 Speaker 2: of CNAs Weekly news podcast. Heart of the matter each week. 330 00:17:42,550 --> 00:17:45,500 Speaker 2: My job is to ask the questions you have. Like, 331 00:17:45,510 --> 00:17:49,260 Speaker 2: why is the coe so high, why are singles dating 332 00:17:49,469 --> 00:17:51,409 Speaker 2: or what's going on with the 333 00:17:51,670 --> 00:17:54,649 Speaker 2: hot property market in Singapore? If you want the views 334 00:17:54,660 --> 00:17:57,530 Speaker 2: behind the news, then tune in each week as we 335 00:17:57,540 --> 00:17:59,810 Speaker 2: get to the heart of the matter, we are on 336 00:17:59,819 --> 00:18:02,409 Speaker 2: the CN A and me listen, apps and wherever you 337 00:18:02,420 --> 00:18:05,770 Speaker 2: get your podcasts hit follow or subscribe. So you don't 338 00:18:05,780 --> 00:18:07,650 Speaker 2: miss an episode when it drops. 339 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:14,469 Speaker 1: I think it also makes sense for us to think 340 00:18:14,479 --> 00:18:17,959 Speaker 1: about whether the concept of a single retirement age figure 341 00:18:17,969 --> 00:18:21,010 Speaker 1: actually makes sense because if we look, for instance, Monetary 342 00:18:21,020 --> 00:18:23,829 Speaker 1: Authority of Singapore, Chief Ravi Menon, he will retire from 343 00:18:23,839 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: first of January 2024. He'll be 60 by then. 344 00:18:26,650 --> 00:18:29,489 Speaker 1: And then we have Warren Buffett 92 years old running 345 00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:32,429 Speaker 1: books head the way very successfully. So how do you 346 00:18:32,439 --> 00:18:34,969 Speaker 1: discern what is a right retirement age? Is there even 347 00:18:34,979 --> 00:18:36,780 Speaker 1: a right one to begin with? And by the way, 348 00:18:36,949 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: Mr Buffett looks like a youngster compared to Charlie man. Right. 349 00:18:39,579 --> 00:18:44,260 Speaker 1: I can't begin to hazard a feels very personal. Some 350 00:18:44,270 --> 00:18:47,938 Speaker 1: people let's respect them, want to retire at 60 351 00:18:48,619 --> 00:18:52,488 Speaker 1: and their financial situation, their family situation allows them to 352 00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:54,689 Speaker 1: be able to do that and let's just go great. 353 00:18:55,170 --> 00:18:57,180 Speaker 1: We're not gonna worry about reskilling you. We're not gonna 354 00:18:57,189 --> 00:19:01,099 Speaker 1: buy recontract fine, but others will go on and on 355 00:19:01,310 --> 00:19:04,949 Speaker 1: whether in family businesses or in professional businesses or Corporates 356 00:19:04,959 --> 00:19:08,550 Speaker 1: of one kind and another. And I'm connected to academia 357 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: in the UK. And here in Hong Kong, academics have 358 00:19:10,770 --> 00:19:12,619 Speaker 1: to retire ridiculously young. 359 00:19:13,020 --> 00:19:15,219 Speaker 1: I think given the work that they do, some of 360 00:19:15,229 --> 00:19:18,300 Speaker 1: them are just coming into their own, doing their best 361 00:19:18,310 --> 00:19:22,390 Speaker 1: work in their sixties. And he's like what mandatory retirement is? 65. 362 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: It seems crazy. So it's very situational, both for the individual, 363 00:19:26,569 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: for the industry and for the culture as well. 364 00:19:29,550 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: It's very personal too, right? I can't imagine not working until, 365 00:19:34,890 --> 00:19:37,329 Speaker 1: of course, I can't. One thing that I wanted to 366 00:19:37,339 --> 00:19:39,660 Speaker 1: ask you is also we talked about this on a 367 00:19:39,670 --> 00:19:43,489 Speaker 1: previous podcast about actually pivoting to something completely different. You 368 00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:46,839 Speaker 1: mentioned this, some people may be doing 30 years, they 369 00:19:46,849 --> 00:19:49,010 Speaker 1: might have been a teacher, let's say, ok, 370 00:19:49,369 --> 00:19:51,770 Speaker 1: and Mexican tired of teaching and so at 60 they 371 00:19:51,780 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: want to do something else. Of course, they can't go 372 00:19:54,209 --> 00:19:57,930 Speaker 1: and be a, I don't know, driver or something difficult 373 00:19:57,939 --> 00:20:00,349 Speaker 1: for them in view of their age. But 374 00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 1: that's also interesting that maybe companies can consider, right? Especially 375 00:20:05,650 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: if it's a big company and you have different departments 376 00:20:08,569 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: that you can try your hand at something completely different. 377 00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:14,050 Speaker 1: I'm going to come back to my main theme, which 378 00:20:14,060 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: is I'm trying to encourage the people I talk to 379 00:20:17,170 --> 00:20:21,229 Speaker 1: in firms not to say here's the solution for you 380 00:20:21,239 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: at this age. But to say, what are you motivated by? 381 00:20:24,550 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: Because if I'm agent and I'm an explorer, I might 382 00:20:27,449 --> 00:20:29,780 Speaker 1: have a very different answer to that. Actually, at any 383 00:20:29,790 --> 00:20:32,290 Speaker 1: age in my career, I don't mind about the money, 384 00:20:32,300 --> 00:20:34,229 Speaker 1: I'll take a 10% cut if you let me move 385 00:20:34,239 --> 00:20:37,060 Speaker 1: to a different part of the business or a different 386 00:20:37,069 --> 00:20:41,839 Speaker 1: country or a different function. Whereas if I'm a striver 387 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,550 Speaker 1: I want to climb the pole and I want to 388 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,500 Speaker 1: be recognized for my success and achievement and take those 389 00:20:48,510 --> 00:20:50,109 Speaker 1: promotions when they're coming 390 00:20:50,430 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: and keep going and head down and keep going. Those 391 00:20:53,290 --> 00:20:56,079 Speaker 1: are two very different animals. I don't see a lot 392 00:20:56,089 --> 00:20:59,530 Speaker 1: of examples of people doing what you're asking, but some, 393 00:20:59,540 --> 00:21:03,530 Speaker 1: so I'm a great admirer of Unilever in their human 394 00:21:03,540 --> 00:21:07,889 Speaker 1: resource management and one program that they've introduced recently, I 395 00:21:07,900 --> 00:21:10,949 Speaker 1: don't know whether it's global or just in certain markets, 396 00:21:10,959 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: but they call it. You work as in letter, you 397 00:21:13,530 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: work and it allows you to have a second job. 398 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,569 Speaker 1: Oh, wow. So in some senses, it's dignifying the gig 399 00:21:21,579 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: economy and saying I could work three or four days 400 00:21:25,369 --> 00:21:26,969 Speaker 1: a week when I say you can have a second 401 00:21:26,979 --> 00:21:28,780 Speaker 1: job just to be clear, you can't have a second 402 00:21:28,790 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: job at Procter and Gamble, right? That's, you can't do that, 403 00:21:31,650 --> 00:21:33,689 Speaker 1: but you can have another job. Perhaps you've got a 404 00:21:33,699 --> 00:21:35,670 Speaker 1: family business on the side. 405 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,900 Speaker 1: You have a, a charity you want to work for 406 00:21:38,910 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: or perhaps you have gig work that you want to 407 00:21:41,689 --> 00:21:43,550 Speaker 1: do a day or two a week. And that is, 408 00:21:43,790 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: you don't have to hide it because lots of people 409 00:21:45,810 --> 00:21:48,530 Speaker 1: do hide that in many firms, right? They do have 410 00:21:48,540 --> 00:21:51,260 Speaker 1: two or even three jobs, but they conceal it. I 411 00:21:51,270 --> 00:21:54,859 Speaker 1: think it's a wonderfully forward thinking idea 412 00:21:55,569 --> 00:21:59,099 Speaker 1: on Unilever's part to bring some dignity and transparency to 413 00:21:59,109 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: that and make adjustments in the other job that they have. 414 00:22:02,449 --> 00:22:04,079 Speaker 1: There's more of this coming, I have a couple of 415 00:22:04,089 --> 00:22:06,790 Speaker 1: other examples that I can't talk about companies doing similar 416 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,829 Speaker 1: sorts of things. Let people go out, come back a 417 00:22:09,839 --> 00:22:10,599 Speaker 1: year later. 418 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,649 Speaker 1: But, yeah, the big career swerve in the sixties is, 419 00:22:13,660 --> 00:22:16,369 Speaker 1: that's the luxury. I think. Maybe only a few can 420 00:22:16,380 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: really afford. Hot. Truth. I'm sure you'll be one of them. 421 00:22:21,810 --> 00:22:23,909 Speaker 1: I'm sure you'll be one of them. I'm totally going 422 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: to be one of them. Maybe be a nurse who knows. 423 00:22:26,380 --> 00:22:28,270 Speaker 1: So going back to the power, we talk about it 424 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,819 Speaker 1: related discrimination. Now, obviously you can just scrub it out 425 00:22:31,829 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: and just say, oh, you know, I'm going to give 426 00:22:33,569 --> 00:22:36,790 Speaker 1: older people a chance for the listeners out there and 427 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,010 Speaker 1: for hiring companies that may still be having such practices. 428 00:22:41,630 --> 00:22:44,530 Speaker 1: What's your message to them? What do you have to 429 00:22:44,540 --> 00:22:46,909 Speaker 1: say to someone who is looking at a CV? Of 430 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,510 Speaker 1: perhaps a candidate who is above 60? Also to this 431 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,139 Speaker 1: idea that we have high quality older workers. So look 432 00:22:54,150 --> 00:22:57,930 Speaker 1: beyond the numbers, that kind of narrative. I will come 433 00:22:57,939 --> 00:23:00,699 Speaker 1: to your question if I may just in 30 seconds, 434 00:23:00,709 --> 00:23:03,670 Speaker 1: I do see a paradox of aging 435 00:23:04,229 --> 00:23:06,390 Speaker 1: in the world today. On the one hand as we've 436 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,149 Speaker 1: talked about, there's no debate, there is age discrimination in 437 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,369 Speaker 1: many countries and perhaps most and many companies and situations. 438 00:23:14,469 --> 00:23:18,409 Speaker 1: On the other hand, we are in this sixties, the 439 00:23:18,420 --> 00:23:20,089 Speaker 1: new 40 world 440 00:23:20,579 --> 00:23:25,369 Speaker 1: where we celebrate extended vitality and we invest in 100 441 00:23:25,380 --> 00:23:29,979 Speaker 1: year life and all these Silicon Valley titans are trying 442 00:23:29,989 --> 00:23:33,329 Speaker 1: to turn death into a curable illness. And you go 443 00:23:33,339 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: to the media 444 00:23:34,650 --> 00:23:38,750 Speaker 1: and you see these beautiful 60 year olds lovingly protecting 445 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,300 Speaker 1: their heirloom assets for their Children on the cover of 446 00:23:43,810 --> 00:23:47,290 Speaker 1: learning to kite surf or play the trombone or something 447 00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:50,229 Speaker 1: just to stave off mental degradation. And those are all 448 00:23:50,239 --> 00:23:54,130 Speaker 1: fantastic things, fantastic things. But it's paradoxical. I don't think 449 00:23:54,140 --> 00:23:57,750 Speaker 1: we as a societies have figured out what we think really. 450 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 1: But the thing, I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to 451 00:24:00,689 --> 00:24:02,979 Speaker 1: tell companies what to think Adrian. But I would only 452 00:24:02,989 --> 00:24:03,550 Speaker 1: say this, 453 00:24:03,900 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: your typical employee today is not taking the same path 454 00:24:08,420 --> 00:24:12,079 Speaker 1: that the, the Gen X's did or even maybe, certainly 455 00:24:12,089 --> 00:24:14,489 Speaker 1: not the boomers and definitely not the Gen X's, maybe 456 00:24:14,500 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: even some of the millennials, which is I go to 457 00:24:16,930 --> 00:24:19,410 Speaker 1: a firm and I stay there 30 years. My profile 458 00:24:19,420 --> 00:24:22,310 Speaker 1: is relatively outdated in many respects. We have many more 459 00:24:22,319 --> 00:24:23,030 Speaker 1: people 460 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,260 Speaker 1: who'd rather have some kind of career passport than a 461 00:24:26,270 --> 00:24:30,020 Speaker 1: career ladder. Try this, do this for a few years, contribute, 462 00:24:30,030 --> 00:24:33,819 Speaker 1: have a success. Go off to another situation. Try something different. 463 00:24:33,829 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: Have a success there. Go back and get myself retrained 464 00:24:36,810 --> 00:24:38,780 Speaker 1: on a new dimension. Go back and do some A 465 00:24:38,790 --> 00:24:41,250 Speaker 1: I training or do some become a nurse in the 466 00:24:41,260 --> 00:24:44,020 Speaker 1: middle of my career? Because I'm very much motivated by that, 467 00:24:44,030 --> 00:24:45,609 Speaker 1: but then I might want to come back. 468 00:24:46,479 --> 00:24:50,030 Speaker 1: And so you present yourself as a candidate aged, let's 469 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,379 Speaker 1: say 55 which is where we see a lot of 470 00:24:52,390 --> 00:24:55,410 Speaker 1: this behavior starting to change in our data. And you're 471 00:24:55,420 --> 00:24:58,910 Speaker 1: not conventional, but then, nor is the 40 year old 472 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,089 Speaker 1: who's done 10 jobs in six different firms, 473 00:25:02,199 --> 00:25:04,369 Speaker 1: not conventional. In the same way, you can't peg them 474 00:25:04,380 --> 00:25:07,739 Speaker 1: as a level JG three And therefore we can pay you, 475 00:25:07,750 --> 00:25:10,089 Speaker 1: open it up a little bit and look at job 476 00:25:10,099 --> 00:25:15,420 Speaker 1: fitness against skills and capabilities and ability to learn and adjust. 477 00:25:15,430 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: That's the second thing. The third thing I would say 478 00:25:17,650 --> 00:25:18,060 Speaker 1: is 479 00:25:18,550 --> 00:25:21,489 Speaker 1: you don't have a choice. If you live in the G7, 480 00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:23,619 Speaker 1: you don't have a choice in Singapore. You still have 481 00:25:23,630 --> 00:25:26,270 Speaker 1: a choice in Hong Kong. It may be a little 482 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,410 Speaker 1: bit of a choice, but it's coming to us. We 483 00:25:28,420 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: are not going to be able to fill the jobs 484 00:25:30,810 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 1: that we want to fill 485 00:25:32,930 --> 00:25:35,550 Speaker 1: with the workers that we have because there's just, there's 486 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,619 Speaker 1: not enough babies were born 20 years ago and 10 487 00:25:38,630 --> 00:25:41,780 Speaker 1: years ago. And today we don't have enough people, workforces 488 00:25:41,790 --> 00:25:46,020 Speaker 1: are shrinking in many markets, not an emergency unless you're 489 00:25:46,030 --> 00:25:49,390 Speaker 1: in Japan, but it's something you've got to get ready for. 490 00:25:49,770 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 1: And I think some of the firms I've mentioned and 491 00:25:51,930 --> 00:25:54,750 Speaker 1: plenty of others are getting ready for it, but that's 492 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,270 Speaker 1: part of the mindset change that you're asking about. I 493 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,459 Speaker 1: love that phrase, a career passport rather than a letter. 494 00:26:02,719 --> 00:26:06,479 Speaker 1: I think that really sums up a lot of my generation. Actually, 495 00:26:06,500 --> 00:26:09,708 Speaker 1: a lot of my friends are doing exactly what you 496 00:26:09,719 --> 00:26:12,688 Speaker 1: just described. Right. They want to do different things at 497 00:26:12,699 --> 00:26:14,819 Speaker 1: a certain point in their career. They're thinking I want 498 00:26:14,829 --> 00:26:18,688 Speaker 1: to learn and I feel that they add so much 499 00:26:18,699 --> 00:26:22,380 Speaker 1: value to the company who hire them. I agree. I agree. And, 500 00:26:22,390 --> 00:26:26,420 Speaker 1: and so again, I'll say that's the average our workers. 501 00:26:26,859 --> 00:26:28,948 Speaker 1: Let's not now rush to the other side of the 502 00:26:28,959 --> 00:26:32,589 Speaker 1: boat and design everything around Adrian and his fellow explorer 503 00:26:32,770 --> 00:26:34,469 Speaker 1: because we've got some people who said no, II, I 504 00:26:34,479 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 1: want that fast promotion, please, because that's what I'm about. 505 00:26:37,869 --> 00:26:41,030 Speaker 1: But let's understand that people are different in that way 506 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,649 Speaker 1: and not somehow disadvantage. Those who want to go explore, 507 00:26:45,660 --> 00:26:47,729 Speaker 1: want to take a year off to support their spouse 508 00:26:47,739 --> 00:26:50,630 Speaker 1: having a baby, want to go and climb Mount Kilimanjaro, 509 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,109 Speaker 1: wanna go and start their nonprofit on the side and 510 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,699 Speaker 1: then come back into mainstream. That's all what we are 511 00:26:55,709 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: working with. Now, that's the workforce of today and increasingly 512 00:26:59,369 --> 00:27:02,050 Speaker 1: of the future. Yeah, that's quite a challenge for managers. 513 00:27:02,060 --> 00:27:04,949 Speaker 1: I very complicated. I don't take it lightly. It, it's 514 00:27:04,959 --> 00:27:06,510 Speaker 1: much more complicated for, 515 00:27:07,010 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: I won't say hr I just say people leaders, which 516 00:27:09,449 --> 00:27:12,349 Speaker 1: is any leader to deal with this. Yeah, we've got 517 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,750 Speaker 1: to be more subtle and nuanced. But again, I'll come 518 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,869 Speaker 1: back to the point unless we are, we will not 519 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,030 Speaker 1: have to use the jargon employee value propositions that appeal 520 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:23,669 Speaker 1: to more than one out of six people. 521 00:27:24,599 --> 00:27:29,389 Speaker 1: Recently, I watched this Netflix documentary called Leave 200 Secrets 522 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,300 Speaker 1: of the Blue Zone. It's really interesting. So for listeners 523 00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:34,459 Speaker 1: who may not be familiar, Blue zones are a few 524 00:27:34,469 --> 00:27:37,420 Speaker 1: areas around the world that has people living up to 100. 525 00:27:37,599 --> 00:27:40,329 Speaker 1: And the interesting bit is in the last episode, they 526 00:27:40,339 --> 00:27:44,219 Speaker 1: talk about Singapore potentially becoming the fifth blue zone. So 527 00:27:44,229 --> 00:27:47,968 Speaker 1: they profiled some people who are living to 900 even 528 00:27:47,979 --> 00:27:50,339 Speaker 1: a few people in the eighties doing chin up, 529 00:27:50,425 --> 00:27:52,724 Speaker 1: more chin ups than I can do. It's incredible. So 530 00:27:52,734 --> 00:27:55,665 Speaker 1: I think with that happening, not just in Singapore but 531 00:27:55,675 --> 00:27:58,994 Speaker 1: also progressively around the world with the improvement in health care, 532 00:27:59,015 --> 00:28:02,324 Speaker 1: etc the way we consume food, the exercise that we do, 533 00:28:02,334 --> 00:28:05,885 Speaker 1: people are living longer and longer. Just imagine our generation 534 00:28:05,895 --> 00:28:08,665 Speaker 1: or a previous generation, right. Last time people are expected 535 00:28:08,675 --> 00:28:09,964 Speaker 1: to get married in their twenties. 536 00:28:10,439 --> 00:28:13,589 Speaker 1: So I think this whole thing should really cause companies 537 00:28:13,599 --> 00:28:17,500 Speaker 1: to reconsider the approach when they look at older workers. 538 00:28:17,670 --> 00:28:19,889 Speaker 1: And I also like the fact that there are different 539 00:28:19,900 --> 00:28:22,219 Speaker 1: archetype of workers that we are looking at and that 540 00:28:22,229 --> 00:28:25,140 Speaker 1: really means companies are only scratching the surface on what 541 00:28:25,150 --> 00:28:27,319 Speaker 1: they can do when it comes to engaging and retaining 542 00:28:27,329 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: their talents. I totally agree. I don't want to live 543 00:28:30,410 --> 00:28:33,300 Speaker 1: to be 100 though. Ok. I'll just say that first. 544 00:28:34,060 --> 00:28:36,650 Speaker 1: I frequent a small pub near my home and one 545 00:28:36,660 --> 00:28:38,459 Speaker 1: of the staff there is this one 546 00:28:38,562 --> 00:28:43,022 Speaker 1: wonderful woman. She is a grandmother. She works part time, 547 00:28:43,072 --> 00:28:47,022 Speaker 1: usually weekends. She is so good at her job and 548 00:28:47,032 --> 00:28:50,922 Speaker 1: she's well into her seventies. So, I suppose as our 549 00:28:50,932 --> 00:28:55,412 Speaker 1: population ages, right, we shouldn't be surprised that there are 550 00:28:55,422 --> 00:28:59,133 Speaker 1: people like her living their best life. It's my own 551 00:28:59,142 --> 00:29:03,203 Speaker 1: bias too. Right. I'm thinking, oh, somebody in their seventies 552 00:29:03,213 --> 00:29:06,583 Speaker 1: shouldn't be so hip and happening. Enjoying life. 553 00:29:06,906 --> 00:29:09,735 Speaker 1: That's my own bias too. So I think it starts 554 00:29:09,745 --> 00:29:13,625 Speaker 1: with that. But as James rightly pointed out, it cannot 555 00:29:13,645 --> 00:29:16,265 Speaker 1: be a one size fits all right, companies will need 556 00:29:16,276 --> 00:29:19,796 Speaker 1: to make some effort in shifting, not just their minds 557 00:29:19,806 --> 00:29:23,625 Speaker 1: as well, also their structures to accommodate different types of workers. 558 00:29:23,865 --> 00:29:26,806 Speaker 1: Thanks to James for coming on and to all our listeners. 559 00:29:26,816 --> 00:29:29,906 Speaker 1: We appreciate your comments and we look forward to reading them. 560 00:29:29,916 --> 00:29:33,465 Speaker 1: My thanks to the CN podcast team. All very young. 561 00:29:33,475 --> 00:29:34,696 Speaker 1: I might add 562 00:29:35,109 --> 00:29:39,449 Speaker 1: till next week. Have a meaningful work week. Thank you, everyone.