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Speaker 1: This is a C. N. A

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Speaker 2: podcast.

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Speaker 2: If you have been away from Singapore for at least

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Speaker 2: a decade and you come back to your childhood home,

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Speaker 2: chances are you are unlikely to recognize it. Where a school,

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Speaker 2: a park or a playground once stood, you might have

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Speaker 2: said find a multistory car park, a mall or maybe

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Speaker 2: even a new road or MRT station.

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Speaker 2: Singaporeans understand there is a price to pay for progress,

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Speaker 2: land has to be cleared for new roads, new MRT

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Speaker 2: lines and of course new homes. Yet every now and

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Speaker 2: then there's a palpable sense of anger when news that

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Speaker 2: a beloved community space like the auto parking, you soon

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Speaker 2: will be demolished to make way for new HDB flats.

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Speaker 2: The government has said it is open to more consultative

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Speaker 2: approach on how the city is developed. Yet there are

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Speaker 2: still questions that bubble up. Why are we building so

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Speaker 2: many flats when we have a declining fertility rate? Why

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Speaker 2: can't we keep spaces that matter to a community? What

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Speaker 2: are the factors that go into making such decisions or

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Speaker 2: is it just a case of communicating these more effectively

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Speaker 2: with me to discuss this? Doctor. One ginger, senior research

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Speaker 2: fellow at the Institute of Policy Studies. Hi steve, thank

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Speaker 2: you for having me Dr lou Teicher, Founding chairman of

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Speaker 2: consultancy firm morrow. He spent 24 years in Singapore's public

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Speaker 2: service serving as the Chief architect and Chief executive of

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Speaker 2: the housing development board, where he oversaw the development of

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Speaker 2: 20 new towns and over half a million housing. You

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Speaker 2: He also served as Singapore's chief planner and Chief executive

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Speaker 2: of the urban redevelopment authority. Hello,

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Speaker 1: it's a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 2: So welcome both of you. Let's start off by talking

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Speaker 2: about Singapore's master plan because you know, every decade or

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Speaker 2: so it's shared with the public and I think it's

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Speaker 2: safe to say that most of us hear about it,

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Speaker 2: but we don't fully understand it, we don't understand its significance.

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Speaker 2: Mr lu if I can start with you first you

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Speaker 2: were ceo and chief planner of the urban redevelopment authority

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Speaker 2: from 1989 to 1992. So help us understand why this

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Speaker 2: master plan is significant and at the same time why

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Speaker 2: it's actually so difficult to create or

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Speaker 1: master plan is to a city development is like a

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Speaker 1: compass to a cruise ship. You need a compass to

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Speaker 1: direct the cruise ship to the destination.

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Speaker 1: If you don't have a compass you'll never get to

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Speaker 1: your destination. And a master plan has the same effect,

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Speaker 1: You have to register the use of every piece of

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Speaker 1: land and every road and how to do it and

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Speaker 1: where to put them so that it can guide the

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Speaker 1: development of the city. So master plan is very, very

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Speaker 1: important related to that. I want to say that the

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Speaker 1: quality of master plan, if it's good

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Speaker 1: then the city will become a good city. If the

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Speaker 1: master plan is poorly done, then the quality of city

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Speaker 1: is poorly affected. When I was in the government, I

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Speaker 1: was really very concerned that whatever I do would affect

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Speaker 1: the future of Singapore as well as affected daily life

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Speaker 1: of every Singaporean every minute of its time. And therefore

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Speaker 1: I put in a lot of effort to make sure

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Speaker 1: I knew what I was doing,

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Speaker 1: So that the plan on the one hand is in

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Speaker 1: the right direction, but at the same time a city

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Speaker 1: is built of concrete and steel. So whatever I put

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Speaker 1: in must be able to sustain and remain relevant and

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Speaker 1: workable for a long, long time to come. That is

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Speaker 1: the 1991 concept plan was the thinking behind it.

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Speaker 2: And would you say that planning today would be quite different,

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Speaker 2: you know, the world has changed so much.

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Speaker 1: Well, the good thing about Singapore is that the 1991

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Speaker 1: concept plan that I had the government actually respect the

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Speaker 1: plan in the sense that Singapore is a highly legalistic country,

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Speaker 1: so you cannot just change the plan. It will, if

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Speaker 1: you have to change, you have go through the proper

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Speaker 1: process to do it. So this plan is by and

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Speaker 1: large intact.

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Speaker 1: But unfortunately, I regret to say that some of the

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Speaker 1: changes that I read about in the newspaper is not

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Speaker 1: necessarily a better alternative and that's partly, I want to

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Speaker 1: say it's a big challenge of urban planning is not

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Speaker 1: many people understand what is proper planning and this is

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Speaker 1: a big challenge,

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Speaker 2: but but then again, some will argue maybe I'll get

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Speaker 2: JJ's input on this first because

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Speaker 2: many people want to be consulted because these are our homes,

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Speaker 2: these are our living spaces. So why shouldn't I have

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Speaker 2: a say in what happens to the space that is

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Speaker 2: next to me? And surely not all opinions will align,

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Speaker 2: but decisions need to be made. So how do we

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Speaker 2: go about with that? I think it is true that

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Speaker 2: today urban planning has become challenging because there are many

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Speaker 2: more stakeholders and many of them are quite vocal. It's

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Speaker 2: not just through the usual channels of consultation that the U. R. A.

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Speaker 2: Has been doing,

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Speaker 2: but we see on social media many more voices today

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Speaker 2: are very vocal about how they want to see the

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Speaker 2: land to be used to give a good example. There

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Speaker 2: was that over forest issue last year when the land

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Speaker 2: was initially zoned for residential developments and immediately you saw

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Speaker 2: a huge backlash from the nature groups

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Speaker 2: today, urban planners, policymakers will have to deal with this

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Speaker 2: a bit of a messier kind of situations. One would

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Speaker 2: argue that that was a good thing that that protest

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Speaker 2: in a way raised concerns and the government reacted listen

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Speaker 2: and reacted accordingly. Certainly, I think it is a good

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Speaker 2: thing in that we get a more diverse viewpoints and

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Speaker 2: these are ultimately the people who will live in and

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Speaker 2: use these spaces. But for policy makers there will necessarily

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Speaker 2: be the need for some buffer in terms of time

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Speaker 2: for deliberation.

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Speaker 2: So we can't expect the policy process, the planning process

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Speaker 2: to be as straightforward or as quick as before. But

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Speaker 2: dr lu so this is a bit of that messiness

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Speaker 2: that we were talking about earlier where people come in

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Speaker 2: to share their thoughts, their opinions and it may not

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Speaker 2: necessarily align with your grand master plan. But should we

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Speaker 2: not be listening to these

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Speaker 1: people? Well certainly we

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Speaker 1: you should listen to people. But I would say that

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Speaker 1: their science and the skill of urban planning is much

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Speaker 1: much more precise than one would think. It's not just

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Speaker 1: pretty colors on draw on paper behind that. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of thinking for example how do you put two

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Speaker 1: parallel expressways where to put them and it's related to

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Speaker 1: density related to land form and so on. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of science in it. So I often tell people

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Speaker 1: that

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Speaker 1: a planner's relation to urban master plan is not much

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Speaker 1: different from a doctor to a human body. So if

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Speaker 1: a doctor had to cure a human body would he

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Speaker 1: say oh anyone here, can you just offer me an

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Speaker 1: opinion how to cure the person? The doctor must understand

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Speaker 1: the anatomy of the body.

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Speaker 1: I actually do worry very much about trying to to

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Speaker 1: put too much emphasis on public opinion because most of

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Speaker 1: them have no planning backgrounds but in Singapore, fortunately which

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Speaker 1: is not very well known to the public. Is that

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Speaker 1: under the U. R. A. We do have a master

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Speaker 1: planning committee consisting of many government departments coming together to

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Speaker 1: discuss urban plan.

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Speaker 1: I personally feel that the government has a certain stand

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Speaker 1: on urban planning, it needs to explain to the members

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Speaker 1: of public to say this is really a professional opinion

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Speaker 2: but dr lu many would argue that it is not

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Speaker 2: exactly the same doctor fixing the human body, the kidney,

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Speaker 2: the appendix, the heart, those cannot be moved. They are

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Speaker 2: there in specific places but

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Speaker 2: a park and old airport roads, I'm sure these can

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Speaker 2: be moved. How can they be exactly the same? Sure

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Speaker 2: our team's are very skilled with the expertise but are

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Speaker 2: they forgetting that while this may be the most effective

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Speaker 2: way to build the road,

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Speaker 2: if it means Uprooting homes, you are literally changing lives?

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Speaker 1: Well I would say that if you move the roads

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Speaker 1: randomly without relating to the whole urban system you are

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Speaker 1: doing damage to the urban plan. It's not less precise

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Speaker 1: and demanding than the human body. This is one thing

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Speaker 1: I want to emphasize is that don't underestimate the precision

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Speaker 1: of urban plan.

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Speaker 1: And in fact maybe I want to add that, I

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Speaker 1: often tell people that the job of a planner is

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Speaker 1: to have to have a scientist head to design the

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Speaker 1: city like a machine for living. Now when I talk

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Speaker 1: about machine, everybody knows how precise the machine must be.

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Speaker 1: You must know all the machine parts, the dimensions of

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Speaker 1: machine parts, how many parts you need, how to connect

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Speaker 1: them and how to wire them up together. Urban planning

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Speaker 1: is not less precise than that. Thank

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Speaker 2: you for sharing that because it does paint a different

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Speaker 2: perception to what I understand from urban planning. And yes,

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Speaker 2: you're saying it's a very precise task. It's not something

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Speaker 2: where you just randomly do, but j j how do

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Speaker 2: we solve this problem of we're building a country, but

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Speaker 2: we mustn't forget that we're building a country where real

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Speaker 2: people live. People live in it and they want to

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Speaker 2: have their old buildings to feel for the old library.

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Speaker 2: They want to have these things around them.

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Speaker 2: Some of the conflict comes at too broad levels at

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Speaker 2: the very broad land use level. Always there will be

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Speaker 2: some conflict when we need to redevelop a particular plot

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Speaker 2: of land or whether it is any heritage building these things.

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Speaker 2: These sites come with their own memory and people's memories

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Speaker 2: of these spaces, but Singapore is land constraint. And when

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Speaker 2: we plan, we're not just planning for the present generation,

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Speaker 2: were also planning for the future generations. So how we

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Speaker 2: allocate land use between now in the future and sometimes

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Speaker 2: there's some trade offs, we need to make

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Speaker 2: being able to communicate. Those tradeoffs will be quite important

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Speaker 2: and I think you are a has been working on

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Speaker 2: conserving some key sites, but again, this is difficult because

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Speaker 2: some spaces and neighborhoods are important to some people but

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Speaker 2: not everyone naturally with social media amplifying the voices. A

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Speaker 2: lot of people have their opinions on whether they should

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Speaker 2: keep this space and the second level would be with

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Speaker 2: drill down to the level of urban design.

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Speaker 2: Now everyone has an opinion of how buildings should look,

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Speaker 2: but as doctor you mentioned, there is a science to

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Speaker 2: urban design.

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Speaker 2: We talk about wind tunnels, we talk about the design

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Speaker 2: of neighborhoods, there is a logic to the way we

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Speaker 2: array our buildings, but sometimes people will come in and

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Speaker 2: say that they don't like the way it looks is

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Speaker 2: too homogenous. So it's trying to communicate these things to

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Speaker 2: them as well. So fair enough, I think with the

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Speaker 2: look of the building you can get away. I mean

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Speaker 2: it's purely subjective but it sounds like we're almost saying

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Speaker 2: let's look at the practicalities of building a city and

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Speaker 2: almost ignore the emotional attachments of people because that is impractical.

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Speaker 2: Now

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Speaker 1: actually we should not really sacrifice the functionality of a

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Speaker 1: city for individual emotional feeling because if we will pay

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Speaker 1: too much attention, undue amount of attention to individual feeling

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Speaker 1: and start changing according to the people's emotion.

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Speaker 1: We're going to end up having a chaotic city at

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Speaker 1: the end of that there will be a lot of

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Speaker 1: voice of unhappiness for example, let me just tell you

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Speaker 1: that the HCB Newtown that I planned the old one,

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Speaker 1: not the President won the amount of schools, the shopping

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Speaker 1: centers and so this was carefully calculated for the need

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Speaker 1: and therefore it should not be changed easily nowadays. I

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Speaker 1: understand and I fully sympathize that the current planners are

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Speaker 1: short of land for new housing and for this or

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Speaker 1: for that, for me to solve that problem is not

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Speaker 1: just to remove certain pieces of land and build housing,

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Speaker 1: you have to have a new long term plan. That's

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Speaker 1: why I suggest that maybe we plan for 10 million

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Speaker 1: people

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Speaker 1: And other 10 million people, we can calculate other 10,

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Speaker 1: how many percent of this? 10 million in the future

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Speaker 1: we need to live in public housing which is subsidized

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Speaker 1: something and then try to allocate the land plus all

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Speaker 1: the related facilities in the new areas because if we

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Speaker 1: can do that in a kind of big system, we

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Speaker 1: can explain to the citizens to say we need the

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Speaker 1: piece of land

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Speaker 1: because based on the long term larger plan, this is

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Speaker 1: what the system requires.

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Speaker 2: So, so that's really a very big picture approach, you know,

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Speaker 2: a long term plan as you mentioned it, are you

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Speaker 2: then saying our actions right now are a bit more

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Speaker 2: reactive to more immediate needs.

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Speaker 1: While I I feel that if you have a kind

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Speaker 1: of total system to me, a city is like a

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Speaker 1: machine for living. So it's a system machine must be

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Speaker 1: put together according to a system.

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Speaker 1: Now, if you can do that and then tell people that, okay,

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Speaker 1: in the next five years out of this total system,

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Speaker 1: I need these pieces of land for development. But behind

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Speaker 1: that there's a reference, there's a master plan to guide.

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Speaker 1: I hope it's easier to convince the people. But if

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Speaker 1: you take land in bits and pieces without reference to

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Speaker 1: a larger system,

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Speaker 1: it's harder to convince the population.

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Speaker 2: So in a way, when we're looking at the bigger picture,

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Speaker 2: then we understand why there are certain needs and why

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Speaker 2: perhaps certain plots need to be removed. Whereas now you're

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Speaker 2: saying these piecemeal sort of offerings get people upset. There's

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Speaker 1: No point of reference. Right? And I want to say

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Speaker 1: that when I plan the 1991 concept plan,

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Speaker 1: I actually projected it to last for 100 years. That

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Speaker 1: means to last till 2091. Based on the population growth

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Speaker 1: rate around that time, that means we will go to

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Speaker 1: 5.5 million. But we already reached 5.7 million.

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Speaker 1: So did I make a mistake in projection? Yes, I did.

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Speaker 1: But why did I make a mistake? Because if you

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Speaker 1: plan the city with a very good system plus very

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Speaker 1: good government policies. Our economy grows very fast. When our

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Speaker 1: economy grows very fast, we have a lot of jobs

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Speaker 1: and what do we do? We need people to fill

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Speaker 1: up the jobs

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Speaker 1: And therefore my 5.5 million kind of target for 2091

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Speaker 1: is ahead by only 70 years and partly because I

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Speaker 1: feel that we need to plant 10 million.

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Speaker 2: Actually, almost sounds like because your plan was so good

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Speaker 2: things worked quite well and therefore we reach that population

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Speaker 2: number sooner than later. But when it comes to housing,

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Speaker 2: I mean, J J let me ask you, because many

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Speaker 2: people are asking, why do we need so much housing?

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Speaker 2: We hear our flats being left empty, we hear fertility

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Speaker 2: rates down and aren't more young people still staying at

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Speaker 2: home with their parents. So why do we need all

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Speaker 2: this housing? I think there are several factors that are

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Speaker 2: driving this housing demand,

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Speaker 2: one of which we know is that there are more

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Speaker 2: young people who actually want to move out from their

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Speaker 2: parents homes. So they're more smaller family units, married couples

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Speaker 2: with no Children. Some of these people in the past

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Speaker 2: may have stayed with their parents or in laws and

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Speaker 2: now they are bidding for new flats. There is also

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Speaker 2: an aspirational aspect to this. There are people who are

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Speaker 2: trying to cycle out of the old flats, trying to

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Speaker 2: buy new flats. Moving into videos.

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Speaker 2: As you imagine there's a little bit of churn in

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Speaker 2: the market. There may be some old flats that are

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Speaker 2: vacant because people have moved out and they're demanding for

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Speaker 2: newer flats, new amenities, new neighborhoods. There is a bit

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Speaker 2: of a mismatch between the supply and demand. But there

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Speaker 2: is also a genuine change in preferences of housing, demographic

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Speaker 2: changes and also more single. So looking to purchase flats

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Speaker 2: and move out on their own. Okay, so you're saying

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Speaker 2: there actually is a need, there is a need for

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Speaker 2: more housing.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there is. And and as we saw in the census,

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Speaker 2: there are more households about smaller households, so that will

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Speaker 2: translate to demand for more units, more public housing units.

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Speaker 2: Hi, my name is Sarah al Khaldi and I'm the

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Speaker 2: host of a new podcast called Money Talks. Yes, we

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Speaker 2: will be talking about money, but more than that, we'll

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Speaker 2: also be talking about life, personal choices, lucky breaks and

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Speaker 2: how money is the thread running through it all. So

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Speaker 2: look out for our episodes wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you drive to the outskirts of Singapore, further out

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Speaker 2: towards and some of the outlying areas and there still

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Speaker 2: seems to be a lot of empty land there. I

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Speaker 2: came across this court, it says by an author Bill Vaughn,

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Speaker 2: who says the suburb is a place where someone cuts

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Speaker 2: down all the trees to build houses and then names

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Speaker 2: the streets after the trees.

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Speaker 2: So the suburb being like, you know, our heartlands. So

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Speaker 2: are we going there sort of raising nature, building homes

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Speaker 2: and then calling it nutmeg road and crescent and things

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Speaker 2: like that. How will we sort of strike this balance

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Speaker 2: where we can continue to preserve our heritage and nature

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Speaker 2: while also supporting the needs of the population dr lu

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Speaker 1: it must fit into the larger system

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Speaker 1: because otherwise that road would be kind of a nuisance

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Speaker 1: and very hard to use. In fact, just so to

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Speaker 1: prove my point when people come to Singapore, they don't

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Speaker 1: get lost easily because the road system was very carefully

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Speaker 1: calibrated and planned. So if we kind of put a

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Speaker 1: small stretch of road here and there without reference to

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Speaker 1: a large system, we're going to make Singapore look chaotic.

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Speaker 1: That's not what I want.

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Speaker 1: And also in terms of love for nature, obviously I

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Speaker 1: do care for that because global warming part of reason

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Speaker 1: we don't protect nature, but how to protect nature nature

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Speaker 1: in itself. There's an ecological ecosystem that we have to respect.

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Speaker 1: So if you just say, oh I want to cut

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Speaker 1: down here, I want to protect you without reference to

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Speaker 1: the larger system. You are not doing an effective job

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Speaker 1: to protect nature or ecology. I

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Speaker 2: guess the challenge is also to have that larger plan

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Speaker 2: carried out to fruition because things change a lot quicker nowadays.

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Speaker 2: So a five year, 10 year, 20 year master plan

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Speaker 2: or the plan that you had, which was to last

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Speaker 2: almost 100 years, one would almost think that it would

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Speaker 2: definitely change along the way. There's no way you could

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Speaker 2: carry it to fruition

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Speaker 2: in Singapore. You know, our greenery is very deliberate, very

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Speaker 2: manicured in a way we build two blocks, we say, okay,

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Speaker 2: let's have a small part in between. It's nice, but

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Speaker 2: it doesn't feel natural. You know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Actually there are two types of Green. one is natural

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Speaker 1: green which comes with nature.

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Speaker 1: The other one will be parks, which we need to

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Speaker 1: put in the neighborhoods on the piece of barren land.

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Speaker 1: We have to grow grass because we need the park

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Speaker 1: to be located in those locations near the Children so

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Speaker 1: that they don't have to go a long distance to

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Speaker 1: the forest.

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Speaker 2: I guess the question is, can we afford to have

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Speaker 2: more of nature? Natural nature

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Speaker 2: rather than the deliberate, manicured version.

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Speaker 1: That answer must come from larger plan to see how

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Speaker 1: much land we still need for housing for factories, for

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Speaker 1: shops and schools and so on,

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Speaker 1: and then how much can be left. But on the

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Speaker 1: other hand, in the process of doing that, we have

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Speaker 1: to identify the natural environment which are so precious that

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Speaker 1: we should not damage if the land available for development

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Speaker 1: is less than the ideal density that we want. That

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Speaker 1: we may have to jack up the density a little bit.

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Speaker 1: So it's a kind of give and take a bargaining

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Speaker 1: system that we have

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Speaker 1: to look at to make meaningful bargain to make sense

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Speaker 1: to be able to explain to people convincingly, you need

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Speaker 1: the long term master plan,

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Speaker 2: whether it's the man made all the natural, they all

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Speaker 2: still need to be part of the larger plan for

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Speaker 2: it to really make sense. Well, j j I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know lately you talked about over, we've heard about

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Speaker 2: certain golf clubs losing their golf courses. I mean that

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Speaker 2: one many people are happy to hear,

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Speaker 2: you know have been taken back, but if we had

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Speaker 2: to choose between a golf course and a forest or

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Speaker 2: somewhere like auto park, I mean, does the answer seem obvious?

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Speaker 2: Or is this something to do with the way we

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Speaker 2: are looking at our own city? Certainly for urban dwellers,

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Speaker 2: there is always some buyers based on our upbringing, our

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Speaker 2: focus the experiences of our space

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Speaker 2: and we talked about dover forest and golf courses. A

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Speaker 2: few people remember that over forest is the secondary forest

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Speaker 2: that spotted up from a old golf course as well.

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Speaker 2: Parts of it as we move forward, I think our

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Speaker 2: understanding of landscaping urban design is changed a lot since

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Speaker 2: the parks, the way we build a canal now is

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Speaker 2: not the same as what we used to do. 20

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Speaker 2: years ago. We now naturalized parks. We have a lot

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Speaker 2: of biomimicry and when we establish parks in such a

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Speaker 2: way that is that mimics nature,

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Speaker 2: We are setting up for the next 10, 20 years.

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Speaker 2: Who's to say 20 years later this space. This part

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Speaker 2: will be a real thriving bio habitat, not just a

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Speaker 2: curated manicured space.

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Speaker 2: So I think that is necessary. We do have very

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Speaker 2: limited space, we will protect what we have, but when

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Speaker 2: we try to build our estates with greenery, I think

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Speaker 2: it's important that we try to mimic nature as much

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Speaker 2: as possible and that it developed instead of mimicking it

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Speaker 2: back to the question of just leaving it alone and

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Speaker 2: then letting it naturally grow. Is it a reflection of

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Speaker 2: how our people have grown and matured? Are ones our desires?

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Speaker 2: The way we look at nature has also changed, right?

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Speaker 2: And at least the demand for more natural green spaces

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Speaker 2: has gone up, especially during the pandemic. You're clemente Forest

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Speaker 2: is an example. People go there because it looks like

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Speaker 2: a real forest. It feels like a real forest and

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Speaker 2: when these sites are of that level of importance. Well,

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Speaker 2: we do have to consider keeping them, but when we

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Speaker 2: run out of space, then we need to think about

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Speaker 2: how to reintroduce this sort of that's the challenge. When

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Speaker 2: we start to run out of space, then

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Speaker 2: how do we choose who gets to decide whether the

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Speaker 2: forest should stay or go?

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Speaker 2: Is it worth tearing down the forest to build more homes?

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Speaker 2: Are we conflicted dr Lewin that choice where we have

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Speaker 2: to meet needs and demands, on the other hand, there

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Speaker 2: are also other desires of people.

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Speaker 1: I want to emphasize two key points. One is today,

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Speaker 1: I mentioned that urban planning is a large system, you

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Speaker 1: don't deal with. the problems in bits and pieces you

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Speaker 1: have to see is part of a larger system. The

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Speaker 1: second thing I want to say is that

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Speaker 1: urban planners must look at the plan as something that

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Speaker 1: doesn't change for centuries. For example, the cities that we

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Speaker 1: love like paris room is still there and actually the

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Speaker 1: changes in today's society is only making minor influences on

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Speaker 1: the urban plan

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Speaker 1: because a city for centuries still need shopping center still

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Speaker 1: needs CBD student factories and so on. The only difference

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Speaker 1: is that in the late 19th century we did not

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Speaker 1: have high tech park. Now we have high tech park,

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Speaker 1: but the high tech park will replace the factory areas,

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Speaker 1: so you still need factory. In the past, we did

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Speaker 1: not have a shopping by computer, but nowadays we can,

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Speaker 1: but despite that human beings are by nature, social animals.

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Speaker 1: So for example, a lot of places in the world today,

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00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,470
Speaker 1: despite the covid 19,

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00:24:12,770 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: they will still insist on gathering in big crowds in

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00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:22,669
Speaker 1: the city center, risking their life because congregation is very important.

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00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,980
Speaker 1: That doesn't change for centuries. CBD is still necessary. The

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00:24:27,990 --> 00:24:30,100
Speaker 1: concert halls are still necessary.

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00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,690
Speaker 1: So I want to emphasize that the world is changing. Yes,

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00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:38,180
Speaker 1: but it's only touching on the bits and pieces, although

454
00:24:38,180 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: we read about the changes all the time, it occupies 1890%

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00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:44,360
Speaker 1: of the newspaper,

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00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:49,450
Speaker 1: the fundamental needs of human beings hasn't changed. We must

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00:24:49,450 --> 00:24:53,949
Speaker 1: get the importance of the two things in perspective. So

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Speaker 2: In a way the larger bigger plan remains the same

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00:24:56,670 --> 00:25:00,169
Speaker 2: because our human needs and desires are basically quite the

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00:25:00,170 --> 00:25:03,020
Speaker 2: same whether it's now or 50 years from now right?

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00:25:03,020 --> 00:25:04,130
Speaker 1: Yes quite the same.

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00:25:04,140 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 2: Okay and it's just the other bells and whistles along

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00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:07,570
Speaker 2: the way that chain.

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00:25:07,590 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 2: And I guess if the bigger plan had catered for

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Speaker 2: that then in a way it isn't really too much

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00:25:14,420 --> 00:25:16,020
Speaker 2: of a disruption to the plan.

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00:25:16,030 --> 00:25:18,700
Speaker 1: I don't see it to be. So it's only the

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00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:21,140
Speaker 1: small tweaking of some of the final.

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00:25:21,150 --> 00:25:23,990
Speaker 2: So then is this all just a case of perhaps

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00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,580
Speaker 2: the way the communication occurs you know because sometimes people

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00:25:27,580 --> 00:25:29,980
Speaker 2: feel upset about things which are close to where they

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00:25:29,980 --> 00:25:33,690
Speaker 2: live perhaps because it's not explained clearly and as you

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00:25:33,690 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: mentioned I don't even know what the bigger plan is.

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00:25:36,740 --> 00:25:41,890
Speaker 1: Yes I think government has a bigger plan in hand

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00:25:41,900 --> 00:25:46,869
Speaker 1: and give a clearer explanation why things must be done

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00:25:46,869 --> 00:25:52,980
Speaker 1: this way. I personally feel that the people in the

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00:25:52,980 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: city are mostly rational people. If you talk to them

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00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,149
Speaker 1: rationally

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00:25:58,330 --> 00:26:01,100
Speaker 1: I believe they will accept in fact when I was

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00:26:01,100 --> 00:26:02,900
Speaker 1: in H. D. B. I had to deal with the

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00:26:02,910 --> 00:26:08,430
Speaker 1: HDB residents on a few occasions they pressurized me to

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00:26:08,430 --> 00:26:12,209
Speaker 1: make certain changes and after I made a study I

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00:26:12,210 --> 00:26:15,070
Speaker 1: explained to them no I can't change for the following

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00:26:15,070 --> 00:26:18,460
Speaker 1: reasons every time I said that to say I don't

485
00:26:18,460 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: agree with you,

486
00:26:19,690 --> 00:26:24,140
Speaker 1: there was no repercussion because you need to explain with

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00:26:24,140 --> 00:26:27,710
Speaker 1: the background of a larger system to explain very clearly.

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00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: I believe people are rational people, I believe we can

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00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:31,859
Speaker 1: explain to them

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00:26:31,859 --> 00:26:34,910
Speaker 2: right? And if we understand the bigger picture and why

491
00:26:34,910 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 2: things are happening the way they are very often we

492
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 2: will be reasonable JJ and perhaps dr lu as a

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00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:42,970
Speaker 2: parting shot for both of you. You know, what do

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00:26:42,970 --> 00:26:46,420
Speaker 2: you think makes living in a city like Singapore meaningful?

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00:26:46,660 --> 00:26:49,710
Speaker 2: We've got so many tangible things here in Singapore, so

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00:26:49,710 --> 00:26:53,149
Speaker 2: many material things that we all enjoy. But what many

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00:26:53,150 --> 00:26:56,100
Speaker 2: of the other things that we perhaps want to have

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00:26:56,100 --> 00:26:58,380
Speaker 2: more off as the city changes? Is there a way

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00:26:58,380 --> 00:27:01,740
Speaker 2: we can have the old and the new coexist together

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00:27:01,750 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 2: so that we can really make Singapore this amazing city,

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00:27:05,369 --> 00:27:06,780
Speaker 2: JJ you go first,

502
00:27:07,340 --> 00:27:09,890
Speaker 2: I think this merging of the old and the new,

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00:27:09,900 --> 00:27:13,550
Speaker 2: the current generations and the future ones. It's a conversation

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00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,020
Speaker 2: that will bear fruit in the spatial confines of the city.

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00:27:17,030 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 2: The city as dr mentioned is planned for 100 years

506
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,340
Speaker 2: for generations to live in, to build their lives in

507
00:27:24,350 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 2: the city when in the soil plan, it should be

508
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,710
Speaker 2: in the background is working humming along, but the city

509
00:27:29,710 --> 00:27:32,580
Speaker 2: that really makes us feel as if we belong to it,

510
00:27:32,590 --> 00:27:34,969
Speaker 2: other communities that we build within the cities.

511
00:27:35,290 --> 00:27:40,060
Speaker 2: So good urban planning should be facilitating these connections, networks,

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00:27:40,070 --> 00:27:43,730
Speaker 2: providing spaces where people meet and connect. So that to

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00:27:43,730 --> 00:27:46,510
Speaker 2: me would be the city, the infrastructure as a base

514
00:27:46,510 --> 00:27:49,450
Speaker 2: layer and the meaning that we ascribe on top of

515
00:27:49,460 --> 00:27:52,150
Speaker 2: the infrastructure. It's true a building is just a building,

516
00:27:52,150 --> 00:27:54,910
Speaker 2: it's about the people who make the building come to life.

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00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,860
Speaker 2: So dr lu in your opinion, you know, as we

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00:27:57,859 --> 00:28:01,330
Speaker 2: move forward as Singapore, how do we continue to

519
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,610
Speaker 2: develop and evolve, but at the same time keep some

520
00:28:04,609 --> 00:28:08,470
Speaker 2: of those factors that make it a truly community space

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00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 2: that we live in. I

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00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 1: asked a lot of people, even senior people from other countries.

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00:28:14,450 --> 00:28:17,270
Speaker 1: I said, why do you leave your much bigger country

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00:28:17,270 --> 00:28:20,150
Speaker 1: to come to a tiny place in Singapore, all of

525
00:28:20,150 --> 00:28:25,290
Speaker 1: them within seconds said because everything works here and also

526
00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:27,030
Speaker 1: they know that they don't have to go a long

527
00:28:27,030 --> 00:28:29,780
Speaker 1: distance to buy a cigarette or even

528
00:28:29,980 --> 00:28:35,030
Speaker 1: grocery and so on. They're all very well distributed despite

529
00:28:35,030 --> 00:28:39,460
Speaker 1: our extremely high density. We don't have serious traffic jams,

530
00:28:39,470 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: hardly any. And on top of that with all this

531
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:49,060
Speaker 1: good city planning plus very good government policies and we

532
00:28:49,060 --> 00:28:54,510
Speaker 1: are also very legalistic transparent society. So people feel savior

533
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,110
Speaker 1: all these things

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00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,370
Speaker 1: uh assets for us. And I personally feel that don't

535
00:29:00,380 --> 00:29:03,950
Speaker 1: go to change for the sake of changing. We must

536
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: know what our strength and keep them

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00:29:07,130 --> 00:29:10,030
Speaker 2: well, thank you so much for coming and speaking with

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00:29:10,030 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: us today, both of you, I think we have many

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00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,890
Speaker 2: great plans. There's no perfect plan. And along the way,

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00:29:15,890 --> 00:29:18,700
Speaker 2: you know, we need to sometimes adjust the plans to

541
00:29:18,700 --> 00:29:19,410
Speaker 2: reflect

542
00:29:19,630 --> 00:29:22,110
Speaker 2: the changing needs at the time. But while we try

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00:29:22,110 --> 00:29:24,420
Speaker 2: to anticipate many of those needs, we also need to

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00:29:24,420 --> 00:29:27,180
Speaker 2: react and respond accordingly because I think the best laid

545
00:29:27,180 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 2: plans of not much use if they are not relevant

546
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:31,300
Speaker 2: to the people at the time.

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00:29:31,590 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 2: So thank you to both for coming and speaking to

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00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,210
Speaker 2: us about this. Thank you to my guests for taking

549
00:29:36,210 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: the time to discuss this very important issue. And thanks

550
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,780
Speaker 2: to you who have been listening to this episode of

551
00:29:41,780 --> 00:29:44,060
Speaker 2: Heart of the matter. We love to hear from you

552
00:29:44,060 --> 00:29:46,790
Speaker 2: about our topic. So if you'd like to discuss, have

553
00:29:46,790 --> 00:29:48,900
Speaker 2: ideas on what you think we should be talking about.

554
00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:51,650
Speaker 2: You can just send us an email podcast at medical

555
00:29:51,730 --> 00:29:53,100
Speaker 2: dot com dot SG.

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00:29:54,620 --> 00:29:58,270
Speaker 2: The team behind this podcast, Jacqueline chan, Danieli, Joanne chan

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00:29:58,270 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 2: and Christina robert. Until next time. I'm Stephen signing off