Speaker 1: Now CNA 938 rewind.
Speaker 2: A recent crackdown on scam trafficking centers along the Thai-Myanmar border, uh,
Speaker 2: this has put pressure on Thailand to manage some 7000
Speaker 2: freed victims. Uh, we know that this has been a
Speaker 2: far-reaching issue here in
Speaker 2: The ASEAN region. Uh, it's been the toughest action in
Speaker 2: the area so far by Thailand on this crackdown. Uh,
Speaker 2: not much has been done there until China and some
Speaker 2: of Thailand's own politicians decided to cut power and telecommunications
Speaker 2: on the border to, uh, I suppose, paralyze the scam
Speaker 2: center operations on the border.
Speaker 2: Uh, this as a result, limited banking access to the
Speaker 2: industry and issued arrest warrants as well for the militia
Speaker 2: leaders involved in the operations. But because the process of
Speaker 2: repatriating victims is so slow, they've been staying in makeshift
Speaker 2: camps with few supplies and unsanitary conditions. Many are in
Speaker 2: poor health. Now victims can come from various socioeconomic backgrounds
Speaker 2: in countries where
Speaker 2: Good jobs are scars, university students and people with computer
Speaker 2: skills are among them, reeled in with offices of good salaries.
Speaker 2: So today we want to speak with Juda Hiatana, International
Speaker 2: director at Global Advanced Projects to get more on the situation.
Speaker 2: Hi Judah, thank you for joining us right here on
Speaker 2: the Morning Report on CNA 938. Now, you're in Mason,
Speaker 2: where a lot of the crisis is happening. Can you
Speaker 2: describe the situation you're seeing at the moment?
Speaker 2: Yeah, hi, thank you for having me on this morning. Uh,
Speaker 2: what we're seeing at the moment is obviously, uh, a
Speaker 2: very low number of people being able to access Thailand.
Speaker 2: They're being held on the borderline, but still inside Myanmar,
Speaker 2: inside the camps. And as you, uh, said in the
Speaker 2: opening that one of the hardest things is that we're
Speaker 2: seeing this humanitarian crisis play out, where there is an
Speaker 2: estimated several 1000 people being held in these makeshift, uh,
Speaker 2: in these makeshift.
Speaker 2: Camps. Many of them are reaching out to us daily,
Speaker 2: even by the hour, telling us of the distressing story
Speaker 2: of how difficult it really is for them. Unfortunately, um,
Speaker 2: my NGO work between the Thailand government and through, uh,
Speaker 2: through the embassies that are, uh, responsible for their citizens,
Speaker 2: and unfortunately, there has not been a way forward yet
Speaker 2: for many of the countries to gain access to their
Speaker 2: victims and essentially repatriate them back home.
Speaker 2: Have you spoken with any of the liberated victims? I mean,
Speaker 2: what's the general sentiment among them now? How, how is
Speaker 2: their wellbeing?
Speaker 2: Many are thankful that they're out of the scam compounds.
Speaker 2: I mean, the, uh, type of abuses that they had suffered, uh,
Speaker 2: were so extreme, but with the type of torture that
Speaker 2: they have, um, experienced, uh, they really, this middle ground
Speaker 2: of being held in these uh camps, it's, it's, it's
Speaker 2: quite detrimental to their psychosocial welfare.
Speaker 2: To many of them still have injuries, they have infections, um,
Speaker 2: that they're going untreated. Many of them have respiratory ailments,
Speaker 2: and they're getting sicker as there's poor sanitation. There's no bathrooms, toilets,
Speaker 2: maybe two for every 800 people. Uh, because of the
Speaker 2: current living conditions, they're just sleeping on the floor. Many
Speaker 2: of them are complaining of uh.
Speaker 2: Like, uh, basically just increased health issues. So although they
Speaker 2: are so thankful they're liberated from the centers, really being
Speaker 2: some of them now 3 weeks in these, uh, holding camps,
Speaker 2: it is really, uh, quite a trying time for them.
Speaker 2: And in, in one way, they've been victims of human
Speaker 2: trafficking and now they're being victimized again. Uh, I just
Speaker 2: wanted to ask you something here, Judah.
Speaker 2: I, I to give listeners also a clearer sense of
Speaker 2: what it is that they are put through also. I mean,
Speaker 2: how do these victims get picked up in the first
Speaker 2: place to be working in these scam centers, they get kidnapped,
Speaker 2: they get whisked away. What is the profile of the
Speaker 2: victims that get that get picked up and how, what
Speaker 2: happens once they do get picked up by these scam
Speaker 2: center operators or kidnappers, if you were?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a great diversity to the range of
Speaker 2: types of people. Earlier on several years ago, the companies,
Speaker 2: they really sought to, um, exploit those with educated backgrounds.
Speaker 2: As they were developing the cybercrime centers, um, they were
Speaker 2: focused on people that could, uh, attribute or or
Speaker 2: Benefit to these compounds. So those who had master's or
Speaker 2: PhDs in computer programming, um, linguists, those who had multi-language
Speaker 2: abilities to be able to scam people in foreign nations.
Speaker 2: So they would be enticed, uh, I mean, we're a
Speaker 2: global community now. It is normal to
Speaker 2: Travel all over the world and look for work abroad.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's almost advertised for us. I've, I've, uh,
Speaker 2: studied in Singapore, um, over the years. So, I mean,
Speaker 2: it's advertised. Go out and see the world, enjoy it.
Speaker 2: So it's not abnormal that these educated people would finish
Speaker 2: a university degree and look to work somewhere else. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: the jobs, um,
Speaker 2: The, the systems in which advertise are so well constructed,
Speaker 2: it's very hard to tell that these are illegitimate jobs.
Speaker 2: And then they're brought into the region and very quickly
Speaker 2: almost kidnapped from um a hotel and then pushed across
Speaker 2: the river um into Myanmar where many of them would
Speaker 2: say that they were held at gunpoint at that time,
Speaker 2: and there was no escape. Their passports were removed, they
Speaker 2: were immediately locked up in rooms.
Speaker 2: And then, um, essentially they were ordered to either scam
Speaker 2: or be tortured. And sometimes, unfortunately, it was scam and
Speaker 2: be tortured. And that becomes a day in and day out.
Speaker 2: They work for at least 18 hours a day, um,
Speaker 2: scamming people in, uh, you know, North America, other Asian countries, and, uh,
Speaker 2: and essentially if they were not able to bring in
Speaker 2: a large enough income, then their tortures were increased.
Speaker 2: There are now militia leaders, Judah involved in the scam
Speaker 2: center operations. What is their role in the broader scheme
Speaker 2: of things and how does their presence complicate the eradication
Speaker 2: of scam centers on the border?
Speaker 2: It's a controversial question for sure, as you said in
Speaker 2: the opening piece that there are now um,
Speaker 2: You know, there are now arrest warrants out for many
Speaker 2: of them. They played a vital role because of course,
Speaker 2: they opened their their areas in which these criminal enterprises
Speaker 2: could enter and, and be ungoverned. They were basically allowed
Speaker 2: to do whatever they wanted and build these astronomically large centers.
Speaker 2: We're not talking about one or two buildings. We're talking
Speaker 2: about compounds that rival some cities in some countries. We're
Speaker 2: talking about tens of thousands.
Speaker 2: Of people in one very, like, you know, well-built facility
Speaker 2: that has, uh, you know, 9 or 12 ft walls
Speaker 2: around them that you just cannot leave from. Uh, they've, they,
Speaker 2: they welcomed it. They obviously received payments from it. They
Speaker 2: claimed that many of them didn't know what was happening
Speaker 2: inside the compounds, that they were unaware of the level
Speaker 2: of torture and the human trafficking. I think that that
Speaker 2: obviously is not the truth. Um, and so now, as
Speaker 2: you said,
Speaker 2: With Thailand's pressure, uh, both it was through, um, cutting
Speaker 2: off the internet supply and electricity, but more so we
Speaker 2: saw a change when they cut off the fuel supply
Speaker 2: or the oil supplies across the river. That not only
Speaker 2: hurt the compounds, that hurt the communities of people that
Speaker 2: live in that region. And when those communities start to
Speaker 2: speak up and say, our lives have now been destroyed
Speaker 2: from this, that left the militia no choice but to
Speaker 2: turn around and say, what do you want?
Speaker 2: Us to do in order to get our oil supplies back.
Speaker 2: And so it was really quite staged and as soon
Speaker 2: as those oil supplies cut off and those electricity went down,
Speaker 2: within a very short amount of time we saw these
Speaker 2: militia leaders going around gathering up people inside the compounds.
Speaker 2: Now one of the issues is we have an estimated
Speaker 2: about 120 to 150,000 people just in the region where
Speaker 2: I live, which is about a 70 kilometer stretch. Um,
Speaker 2: what
Speaker 2: We're hearing at maximum is kind of between 700 and
Speaker 2: 10,000 people being rescued. That's only an 8 or 9%
Speaker 2: of persons from the compounds. So we're not looking at
Speaker 2: a complete closure of these, um, centers, of these pig butchering,
Speaker 2: if you will, centers. We're just seeing that perhaps they're
Speaker 2: doing just enough that they can have those oil reserves, um, reissued,
Speaker 2: and they can have the electricity turned back on. But
Speaker 2: what we're obviously hoping for is this is the beginning
Speaker 2: of the end.
Speaker 2: Juda, what is it about these scam centers that make
Speaker 2: it so hard for authorities, any kind of authority to
Speaker 2: find them, to stamp them out and to get these
Speaker 2: victims home?
Speaker 2: Well, it's in this unique kind of place of Myanmar.
Speaker 2: Myanmar's been under civil war for 70 years, um, the,
Speaker 2: the major center of, uh, like, let's say the national, um,
Speaker 2: The city of Yangon and Nepyaw claim that they have
Speaker 2: no jurisdiction in this region where these militia military stand.
Speaker 2: And so these militia military have held their areas for
Speaker 2: for quite some generations. And obviously because of bureaucracy and
Speaker 2: because of international law, that country has its own sovereignty.
Speaker 2: So although you might have citizens within that land, no country.
Speaker 2: Has the ability to step in. We cannot send armed
Speaker 2: forces from Thailand or, you know, Singapore's army or or
Speaker 2: USA Army troops cannot come through Thailand and enter a
Speaker 2: sovereign country, as that's an act of war. And obviously
Speaker 2: for something like this, we're not going to see World
Speaker 2: War III come out. So it's about um diplomatic conversation.
Speaker 2: It's about really trying to um
Speaker 2: You know, negotiate the release of these people and finding
Speaker 2: out who has those, uh, I guess, uh, parts, who
Speaker 2: has the power that can go in and eradicate these places.
Speaker 2: Now, many scam centers, they tend to be managed by
Speaker 2: Chinese nationals who escaped the crackdown by China on illegal
Speaker 2: and online gambling. How much effective assistance has China rendered
Speaker 2: to quash these scam centers?
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, we have a saying in our region, China for China.
Speaker 2: And it does seem that most of their negotiations is
Speaker 2: only specifically for the Chinese nationals. Um, I think there's
Speaker 2: a lot of countries out there that hope that they
Speaker 2: would speak on their behalf, but with the majority of
Speaker 2: people inside the compound being Chinese, you would also understand
Speaker 2: that it is a China for China answer in a
Speaker 2: sense for their own people, just as
Speaker 2: You've got someone, you know, we've got Singaporeans in there.
Speaker 2: We don't expect Singapore's government to go in and speak
Speaker 2: on behalf of Vietnam and Malaysia. They have to be
Speaker 2: represented by their own governments, by their own embassies. And
Speaker 2: so we would, we, we understand that China has the
Speaker 2: greatest power, I guess, um, as these would be considered
Speaker 2: Chinese companies, these would be considered Chinese gang members. Um,
Speaker 2: but unfortunately, it really has been China for China.
Speaker 2: We saw last year there were 900 Chinese removed on flights,
Speaker 2: and then again this year there were 651, I think
Speaker 2: in the last few weeks. We're looking at another uh
Speaker 2: set of planes being brought in to take another group
Speaker 2: of Chinese out. But really, other than that, we've not
Speaker 2: seen a great, uh, negotiation from that side in order
Speaker 2: to help, uh, some of the other 60 countries that
Speaker 2: are represented inside these scam compounds.
Speaker 2: Judah, um, we understand there is the ASEANN multi-sectoral work
Speaker 2: plan against trafficking in persons 2023 to 2028. So there's
Speaker 2: a bit of a um legal framework there by the
Speaker 2: ASEAN grouping. How useful has this been in tackling this
Speaker 2: transboundary issue in Southeast Asia?
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, it really hasn't been that useful. Um, there has
Speaker 2: been quite a lot of conversation had in many cities
Speaker 2: around Thailand or the ACEAN area. Um, Meso where I
Speaker 2: live is a very, very small town, and it deals
Speaker 2: with the brunt of what's going on because it is
Speaker 2: the border town that's connected with Myanmar.
Speaker 2: Um, we don't see a lot of those conversations end
Speaker 2: up coming down this far. What I could say is
Speaker 2: that countries like Indonesia last this last week were quite successful.
Speaker 2: They got 84 of their citizens out one day and
Speaker 2: they're hoping to negotiate the release of the rest of them.
Speaker 2: We saw that being an ASEAN kind of conversation, ASEAN countries,
Speaker 2: Thailand to um,
Speaker 2: To Indonesia and but the thing is really that government
Speaker 2: came through very strong. I mean sent the Ministry of
Speaker 2: Foreign Affairs Jakarta, the embassies of Yangon, and the embassies
Speaker 2: of Bangkok all to come to this region in order
Speaker 2: to negotiate the release of their people, and that's really
Speaker 2: what we need to see happen now. All those countries
Speaker 2: represented on the list, I think there's 29 countries at
Speaker 2: the moment looking to um.
Speaker 2: Receive their citizens back from these centers. We really need
Speaker 2: to see their governments engage in this region and come
Speaker 2: down and show that they're here ready to respond and
Speaker 2: be responsible for their citizens. Thailand took 260 victims out
Speaker 2: several weeks ago, and there are still 140 of them
Speaker 2: that have not been repatriated home yet.
Speaker 2: And that is a government to government conversation, but as
Speaker 2: NGOs we sit in the middle, providing food, water, uh,
Speaker 2: medical care, and that's going on weeks now. So we're
Speaker 2: talking tens of thousands of dollars going out into aid
Speaker 2: when really we just need to see the Ministry of
Speaker 2: Foreign Affairs of their home country, take them home and
Speaker 2: um start to repatriate them in a faster kind of process.
Speaker 2: Uh, Judah, this has been very, very enlightening for us.
Speaker 2: It's giving us insights on the ground as to what's happening.
Speaker 2: It really does sound more complicated than it is to
Speaker 2: get these people out and get them home.
Speaker 2: And more importantly, to quash these scam centers. We wish
Speaker 2: you the best in doing what you do best over
Speaker 2: there and that is to get these people repatriated in
Speaker 2: a healthy manner as well. We hope that these people
Speaker 2: can eventually find their way home. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2: I do appreciate it. The pleasure is ours. That's Judah Heathana.
Speaker 2: He's international director at Global Advanced Projects, reporting directly to
Speaker 2: us from Mayo, the heart of the scam center operations
Speaker 2: in Myanmar.