1 00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:02,200 Speaker 1: This is AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:05,289 --> 00:00:08,449 Speaker 2: Now there is a saying cash is king but you know, 3 00:00:08,460 --> 00:00:11,420 Speaker 2: I'm not so sure that still holds true today. I mean, 4 00:00:11,430 --> 00:00:14,619 Speaker 2: it feels like we live in an almost cashless existence. 5 00:00:14,859 --> 00:00:16,510 Speaker 2: I used to carry quite a lot of cash in 6 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:18,819 Speaker 2: my wallet. But these days, I have to admit I 7 00:00:18,829 --> 00:00:22,899 Speaker 2: enjoy my sleek light wallet which uh actually carries a 8 00:00:22,909 --> 00:00:25,219 Speaker 2: much greater spending power than 9 00:00:25,530 --> 00:00:28,579 Speaker 2: I ever could if I carried cash. And for younger 10 00:00:28,590 --> 00:00:31,069 Speaker 2: ones today probably don't even need a wallet. Everything they 11 00:00:31,079 --> 00:00:34,509 Speaker 2: need is on their mobile phones, catching a movie, buying 12 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,580 Speaker 2: food at the Hawker Center, taking the M RT just 13 00:00:37,590 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: a swipe of a card, a scan of a QR code, 14 00:00:40,090 --> 00:00:44,019 Speaker 2: a transfer to another mobile phone number. There are multiple 15 00:00:44,029 --> 00:00:47,779 Speaker 2: digital payment platforms that allow you to spend money way 16 00:00:47,790 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 2: too easily. Super convenient. Well, some might disagree 17 00:00:52,709 --> 00:00:56,189 Speaker 2: in our relentless march towards everything digital. Are we leaving 18 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: some segment of the population behind? And what happens when 19 00:00:59,889 --> 00:01:03,529 Speaker 2: that online payment platform breaks down? Are we left more 20 00:01:03,540 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 2: vulnerable to the likes of scammers and cyber criminals? 21 00:01:07,690 --> 00:01:10,860 Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, Steven and today on heart of the matter. 22 00:01:10,870 --> 00:01:14,379 Speaker 2: We're discussing the topic of EPAS. How do we cater 23 00:01:14,389 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 2: for these issues and help those who may be slower 24 00:01:17,970 --> 00:01:18,860 Speaker 2: to adopt them 25 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,910 Speaker 2: with me to discuss? This are Faii a young Hawker 26 00:01:26,540 --> 00:01:31,290 Speaker 2: Lawrence Chan group CEO of Nets Lim Meen, director of 27 00:01:31,300 --> 00:01:35,629 Speaker 2: the Fair Institute at Access Partnership, everybody. So welcome guys. 28 00:01:35,639 --> 00:01:38,169 Speaker 2: Let's start off by talking about the E payment landscape 29 00:01:38,180 --> 00:01:41,569 Speaker 2: in Singapore and Singapore's adoption rate is actually really high 30 00:01:41,580 --> 00:01:43,610 Speaker 2: for cashless payments. In fact, it's said to be one 31 00:01:43,620 --> 00:01:46,929 Speaker 2: of the highest in Asia at something like 97% according 32 00:01:46,940 --> 00:01:47,510 Speaker 2: to data 33 00:01:47,830 --> 00:01:50,319 Speaker 2: Lawrence. I got to say that's quite a staggering percentage. 34 00:01:50,330 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: It sounds really good. And are you surprised by this 35 00:01:52,410 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 2: number or you just like? Yeah, this is the way 36 00:01:54,489 --> 00:01:56,690 Speaker 2: it should be and not something that's been overnight for 37 00:01:56,699 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: us to reach this level. Like in many other places, 38 00:01:59,489 --> 00:02:01,809 Speaker 2: it has been quite successful, I think in terms of 39 00:02:01,819 --> 00:02:04,220 Speaker 2: going digital, the way I describe it is 40 00:02:04,285 --> 00:02:06,205 Speaker 2: it takes a village to raise a child, it takes 41 00:02:06,214 --> 00:02:08,744 Speaker 2: a village to raise a new form of payment. It's 42 00:02:08,755 --> 00:02:12,804 Speaker 2: been a very conscientious effort across the whole ecosystem to 43 00:02:12,815 --> 00:02:15,375 Speaker 2: to make it where we are today as a small country. 44 00:02:15,383 --> 00:02:17,934 Speaker 2: We are pushing towards a lot of the adoption of 45 00:02:17,945 --> 00:02:19,925 Speaker 2: technology in a very quick way. So I guess that 46 00:02:19,934 --> 00:02:23,345 Speaker 2: has helped to has it changed significantly the digital payment 47 00:02:23,354 --> 00:02:25,684 Speaker 2: space where has been the most significant change in the 48 00:02:25,695 --> 00:02:28,565 Speaker 2: last decade, last five years. I don't want to play 49 00:02:28,574 --> 00:02:31,413 Speaker 2: up the pandemic and it's definitely had a very negative 50 00:02:31,425 --> 00:02:33,875 Speaker 2: impact on our lives on many people's lives. 51 00:02:34,139 --> 00:02:36,820 Speaker 2: But if there's any silver lining from it, digital payments 52 00:02:36,830 --> 00:02:41,168 Speaker 2: has benefited from the COVID experience prior to the pandemic, 53 00:02:41,179 --> 00:02:44,410 Speaker 2: I think the resistance or the adoption of digital payment 54 00:02:44,419 --> 00:02:48,149 Speaker 2: was slower. QR especially as a form factor for payments. 55 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,190 Speaker 2: Since the pandemic, we were forced, I guess to a 56 00:02:51,199 --> 00:02:54,038 Speaker 2: certain extent to use more of technology to get on 57 00:02:54,050 --> 00:02:56,279 Speaker 2: with our lives. So fa let me ask you at 58 00:02:56,288 --> 00:02:59,100 Speaker 2: your shop, you sell coffee and you take digital payments 59 00:02:59,110 --> 00:03:00,008 Speaker 2: from your customers, right? 60 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,059 Speaker 2: Give me some idea out of every 10 customers. How 61 00:03:03,070 --> 00:03:06,339 Speaker 2: many of them would pay you in cash? Out of 10? 62 00:03:06,350 --> 00:03:09,228 Speaker 2: I think three would pay in cash and seven with 63 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,509 Speaker 2: QR codes and the three that pay you in cash. 64 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,448 Speaker 2: Is it because they don't know how to use the 65 00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:17,470 Speaker 2: QR code? They don't have those facilities. I don't think 66 00:03:17,479 --> 00:03:20,690 Speaker 2: they don't have, they carry a mobile phone when they order. 67 00:03:20,699 --> 00:03:22,470 Speaker 2: I just think the general 68 00:03:22,675 --> 00:03:26,186 Speaker 2: consensus when they give us cash and you can see 69 00:03:26,195 --> 00:03:28,145 Speaker 2: is that they think it's a hassle to whip the 70 00:03:28,156 --> 00:03:32,166 Speaker 2: phone out to scan and then to key in the 71 00:03:32,175 --> 00:03:36,936 Speaker 2: price themselves. They find that handing cash and then grabbing 72 00:03:36,945 --> 00:03:39,966 Speaker 2: the change is a lot faster. We understand because at 73 00:03:39,975 --> 00:03:42,966 Speaker 2: the Hawker Center, when you're trying to get your coffee 74 00:03:42,975 --> 00:03:44,826 Speaker 2: before you go into the office or maybe 75 00:03:44,992 --> 00:03:47,082 Speaker 2: your lunch, you want to get it quick and fast. 76 00:03:47,091 --> 00:03:51,011 Speaker 2: So in their heads it's embedded that cash. Give, give 77 00:03:51,022 --> 00:03:53,332 Speaker 2: me change, take my coffee, go. But I'm just thinking 78 00:03:53,341 --> 00:03:55,932 Speaker 2: in my mind actually, from the time I order my coffee, 79 00:03:55,942 --> 00:03:57,992 Speaker 2: the time you take to make my coffee is or 80 00:03:58,001 --> 00:03:59,561 Speaker 2: more than the time I would need to punch it. 81 00:03:59,572 --> 00:04:03,582 Speaker 2: The numbers in the it is. Do you ever have 82 00:04:03,591 --> 00:04:07,121 Speaker 2: some of the older customers who prefer to pay with cash? 83 00:04:07,789 --> 00:04:11,699 Speaker 2: The majority of the older customers do still pay with cash, 84 00:04:11,710 --> 00:04:15,559 Speaker 2: but I'd say 70% of them are not averse to 85 00:04:15,570 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 2: using their phones at all. In fact, a lot of 86 00:04:18,609 --> 00:04:22,450 Speaker 2: them want to try, but they're so afraid of holding 87 00:04:22,459 --> 00:04:27,070 Speaker 2: up the queue, forgetting their password or not having put 88 00:04:27,079 --> 00:04:30,109 Speaker 2: in a card or not linking their bank accounts. They 89 00:04:30,119 --> 00:04:31,738 Speaker 2: are so afraid of that, that they just 90 00:04:32,673 --> 00:04:35,062 Speaker 2: no la I just use cash la faster. And I 91 00:04:35,072 --> 00:04:37,773 Speaker 2: think this fear factor is quite real if I ask 92 00:04:37,782 --> 00:04:40,513 Speaker 2: man and there is a segment of the population that 93 00:04:40,523 --> 00:04:43,751 Speaker 2: feels a bit apprehensive about using technology. I think you're 94 00:04:43,763 --> 00:04:46,912 Speaker 2: never really very sure when you're an older person you're 95 00:04:46,923 --> 00:04:50,272 Speaker 2: still exploring with the new technology, you have some level 96 00:04:50,282 --> 00:04:53,602 Speaker 2: of confidence in it. But hey, using your fingerprint. Wow, 97 00:04:53,613 --> 00:04:55,772 Speaker 2: that sounds very fantastical to my parents. 98 00:04:55,855 --> 00:04:58,696 Speaker 2: There is some anxiety about it and because there is 99 00:04:58,705 --> 00:05:03,425 Speaker 2: very little assurance, I think that for example, paying somebody 100 00:05:03,436 --> 00:05:05,755 Speaker 2: for the coffee and then getting the reassurance that yes, 101 00:05:05,765 --> 00:05:09,686 Speaker 2: I have received that money. Sometimes the server, the person 102 00:05:09,696 --> 00:05:12,446 Speaker 2: receiving the money or receiving the cashless payment doesn't give 103 00:05:12,455 --> 00:05:16,575 Speaker 2: enough reassurance that yes, auntie uncle got the money already. Right? 104 00:05:16,585 --> 00:05:18,085 Speaker 2: For a moment there. When you said the server, I 105 00:05:18,096 --> 00:05:19,705 Speaker 2: was thinking of the actual computer. 106 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,630 Speaker 2: I think the usual markers of that social nicety of 107 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 2: giving you cash, giving you back the change, et cetera 108 00:05:28,170 --> 00:05:30,368 Speaker 2: giving you the receipt. I think those social indicators are 109 00:05:30,380 --> 00:05:33,070 Speaker 2: slightly missing, especially Lawrence. I think in the middle of 110 00:05:33,079 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 2: that digital transaction where you actually cashless cannot touch, you 111 00:05:36,209 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 2: cannot face, you cannot do anything with you. You know, 112 00:05:38,049 --> 00:05:41,500 Speaker 2: in the payment space, we have this phrase called self suppression, 113 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: right means what that means, you, you suppress the next 114 00:05:45,450 --> 00:05:48,579 Speaker 2: transaction and you do it by yourself suppression, meaning you 115 00:05:48,589 --> 00:05:51,089 Speaker 2: cannot use the payment option that you like to use 116 00:05:51,100 --> 00:05:54,260 Speaker 2: at the point of sale. You self suppress because you 117 00:05:54,269 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 2: maybe embarrassed the previous time. That experience of being embarrassed 118 00:05:57,850 --> 00:06:00,328 Speaker 2: the previous time holds you back from wanting to do 119 00:06:00,339 --> 00:06:03,130 Speaker 2: it again. So the amount of education, the amount of 120 00:06:03,140 --> 00:06:06,049 Speaker 2: confidence we need to give for any segment to start 121 00:06:06,059 --> 00:06:07,029 Speaker 2: the new payment option. 122 00:06:07,230 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 2: And it started this started with cards before as well, 123 00:06:09,549 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: but it was so long ago and it started for 124 00:06:11,209 --> 00:06:14,130 Speaker 2: tap even, right? So breaking that self suppression is very 125 00:06:14,140 --> 00:06:15,380 Speaker 2: important for us to get 126 00:06:15,730 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 2: a deep penetration of usage into the community. I, I've 127 00:06:18,928 --> 00:06:20,659 Speaker 2: never thought of it that way in the sense that 128 00:06:20,670 --> 00:06:23,019 Speaker 2: if I try it once and I fail so to speak, 129 00:06:23,029 --> 00:06:25,260 Speaker 2: then the next time I think twice, right about using 130 00:06:25,290 --> 00:06:27,399 Speaker 2: it again. Maybe more so in the Asian context, I 131 00:06:27,410 --> 00:06:30,428 Speaker 2: feel embarrassed to say, you know, I have many people 132 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,579 Speaker 2: waiting behind me. I may do it when there's nobody 133 00:06:33,589 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: there and I'm just alone, maybe in an off peak 134 00:06:35,890 --> 00:06:38,339 Speaker 2: hour to try again. So it's not that our older 135 00:06:38,350 --> 00:06:40,709 Speaker 2: folks don't want to try it. They're just a bit 136 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,010 Speaker 2: fearful of the possible consequences holding up other people 137 00:06:45,194 --> 00:06:47,954 Speaker 2: is the price factor. I think that that's really strong. 138 00:06:47,963 --> 00:06:51,282 Speaker 2: I think that in Singapore, at least from a research perspective, 139 00:06:51,334 --> 00:06:53,894 Speaker 2: we do see that the population tends to be a 140 00:06:53,903 --> 00:06:56,003 Speaker 2: bit more accepting of the fact that we need to change. 141 00:06:56,023 --> 00:06:58,414 Speaker 2: I listed them down. We were talking about cashless, right? 142 00:06:58,424 --> 00:07:02,113 Speaker 2: For example, we're moving checks to gyro to credit cards, 143 00:07:02,123 --> 00:07:04,384 Speaker 2: then we chip based systems and then the cash card 144 00:07:04,394 --> 00:07:07,363 Speaker 2: to store value cards like the link card. And then 145 00:07:07,373 --> 00:07:09,644 Speaker 2: now with all of the payments, I think that we 146 00:07:09,653 --> 00:07:12,104 Speaker 2: are very used to a very quick cycle of change. 147 00:07:12,114 --> 00:07:14,584 Speaker 2: But this price factor perhaps is, is a big factor. 148 00:07:14,657 --> 00:07:17,268 Speaker 2: It's quite psychological actually and it has to do a 149 00:07:17,278 --> 00:07:19,708 Speaker 2: bit with, I guess the pace of life here because 150 00:07:19,717 --> 00:07:22,138 Speaker 2: sometimes my friends coming to visit and we buy stuff 151 00:07:22,148 --> 00:07:25,358 Speaker 2: at the shop and our transaction is so quick. It's 152 00:07:25,368 --> 00:07:27,667 Speaker 2: a real transaction. There are no nicer as you're talking 153 00:07:27,678 --> 00:07:30,567 Speaker 2: about the humanity behind it. No. Hi, how are you today? 154 00:07:30,578 --> 00:07:32,398 Speaker 2: You know. Hi, how's it going? You know, it's like 155 00:07:32,407 --> 00:07:34,858 Speaker 2: I'm just a face at the shop. I'm buying my coffee, 156 00:07:34,868 --> 00:07:37,148 Speaker 2: even though I've been there every day this week, I'm 157 00:07:37,157 --> 00:07:40,347 Speaker 2: still just another face, my coffee. I mean, you may 158 00:07:40,358 --> 00:07:43,007 Speaker 2: be members of people. I do. I do. But what 159 00:07:43,018 --> 00:07:44,028 Speaker 2: man has brought up 160 00:07:44,122 --> 00:07:47,122 Speaker 2: and with self suppression as well, it really comes down 161 00:07:47,131 --> 00:07:50,971 Speaker 2: to the server and you're right. But we are young. 162 00:07:51,052 --> 00:07:54,552 Speaker 2: The staff at the stores are young and what we advocate, 163 00:07:54,562 --> 00:07:58,212 Speaker 2: especially when we deal with older customer who's trying to 164 00:07:58,221 --> 00:08:02,402 Speaker 2: use a cashless payment mode is to encourage and to 165 00:08:02,411 --> 00:08:05,772 Speaker 2: teach and to make sure that we tell them uncle 166 00:08:05,782 --> 00:08:07,851 Speaker 2: is ok. You know, let me show you one time. 167 00:08:07,861 --> 00:08:10,182 Speaker 2: You do one time. You do. Second time, the third time. Sure, 168 00:08:10,191 --> 00:08:13,511 Speaker 2: very easy. You just need to do the first time. Unfortunately, 169 00:08:13,585 --> 00:08:17,555 Speaker 2: we are the rare few stalls, hawker stalls that would 170 00:08:17,566 --> 00:08:20,045 Speaker 2: do that, but we can afford it. We are educated, 171 00:08:20,055 --> 00:08:23,135 Speaker 2: we can help. But most times when it's a slam 172 00:08:23,145 --> 00:08:25,665 Speaker 2: and there is a queue where like uncle, sorry, can 173 00:08:25,675 --> 00:08:28,105 Speaker 2: you just pay cash? There's a long queue behind you. 174 00:08:28,115 --> 00:08:30,846 Speaker 2: I really need to make money, you know, and most 175 00:08:30,855 --> 00:08:33,296 Speaker 2: times it's like that with other hawkers or at least 176 00:08:33,306 --> 00:08:35,075 Speaker 2: you say it nicely. I've had this before where I 177 00:08:35,085 --> 00:08:37,026 Speaker 2: tried to use an app and something failed. And the 178 00:08:37,035 --> 00:08:40,055 Speaker 2: cashier gave me this look. Right. You like you like 179 00:08:40,356 --> 00:08:42,116 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, sorry. You know. Are you sure 180 00:08:42,195 --> 00:08:42,895 Speaker 2: you have the app? 181 00:08:43,380 --> 00:08:46,390 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. It's not gonna work. Don't waste my time. 182 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 2: I could see it on her face, but this whole 183 00:08:48,849 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 2: idea of going cashless with a lot of our delivery couriers, 184 00:08:52,090 --> 00:08:54,619 Speaker 2: they went contactless, you know, during the pandemic. Can it 185 00:08:54,630 --> 00:08:58,250 Speaker 2: work against us? For instance, not everyone has access to 186 00:08:58,260 --> 00:09:01,179 Speaker 2: a digital payment platform. My son's 15, he he doesn't 187 00:09:01,190 --> 00:09:03,549 Speaker 2: have his own bank account yet. Much less credit cards, right? 188 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:04,978 Speaker 2: So he went to a shop, a cafe, he wanted 189 00:09:04,989 --> 00:09:06,799 Speaker 2: to buy a drink and he told him, sorry, we 190 00:09:06,809 --> 00:09:07,210 Speaker 2: are cash. 191 00:09:07,864 --> 00:09:10,005 Speaker 2: He's like when I do my five bucks. So literally 192 00:09:10,015 --> 00:09:12,885 Speaker 2: he had to pay the staff who then use their 193 00:09:12,895 --> 00:09:15,765 Speaker 2: own payment platform to pay and buy the drink for him. 194 00:09:15,924 --> 00:09:18,814 Speaker 2: So it kind of does work to an extent against 195 00:09:18,825 --> 00:09:20,875 Speaker 2: us at some point. Right? I think in Singapore, we 196 00:09:20,885 --> 00:09:23,325 Speaker 2: are really very privileged and we really don't have any 197 00:09:23,335 --> 00:09:27,744 Speaker 2: population that's unbanked. We maybe have under serve and the 198 00:09:27,755 --> 00:09:31,104 Speaker 2: too extreme from an standpoint, my parents' generation 199 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,289 Speaker 2: and maybe my younger Children generation will be underserved. So yeah, 200 00:09:35,299 --> 00:09:37,789 Speaker 2: I got a 14 year old. We give him, yeah, 201 00:09:37,799 --> 00:09:39,239 Speaker 2: because I work for net, we give him a net 202 00:09:39,250 --> 00:09:42,159 Speaker 2: prepaid card, right? So next prepaid card at all, 100 203 00:09:42,169 --> 00:09:46,049 Speaker 2: over 1000 locations whenever he spends, I can ask the mother, hey, 204 00:09:46,059 --> 00:09:49,150 Speaker 2: how come he went mcdonald's spend $17 and the mom 205 00:09:49,159 --> 00:09:51,789 Speaker 2: will say no, no, no, don't get angry. Maybe giving 206 00:09:51,799 --> 00:09:54,539 Speaker 2: me ideas. Maybe he, he bought for his friend. Right? 207 00:09:54,549 --> 00:09:56,820 Speaker 2: So it's a good thing. Don't have to question him 208 00:09:56,830 --> 00:09:57,390 Speaker 2: straight away 209 00:09:57,659 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 2: with the next prepaid card. The great thing about it 210 00:09:59,650 --> 00:10:01,589 Speaker 2: is on the app. We can see all the transactions. 211 00:10:01,599 --> 00:10:04,340 Speaker 2: It's good for us to see. But I think tracking 212 00:10:04,349 --> 00:10:08,289 Speaker 2: is a great financial right skill that you need to 213 00:10:08,299 --> 00:10:10,309 Speaker 2: start for. Some would argue that sometimes it's better to 214 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,820 Speaker 2: have cash because when you are giving away cash, it 215 00:10:12,830 --> 00:10:14,848 Speaker 2: hurts more. You know what I mean? 216 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,049 Speaker 2: I see my 10 bucks go away and I come back. 217 00:10:17,059 --> 00:10:19,820 Speaker 2: I only have $2. I know I've used it and 218 00:10:19,830 --> 00:10:22,450 Speaker 2: it's gone, right? Whereas with the cashless transaction, it's almost 219 00:10:22,460 --> 00:10:25,929 Speaker 2: like tap. Oh, honestly, I have this conversation with my wife. 220 00:10:25,940 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: How do we give money to our kids? Do we 221 00:10:27,289 --> 00:10:29,098 Speaker 2: give money to our kids electronically or do we give 222 00:10:29,109 --> 00:10:31,010 Speaker 2: money to our kids in, in person so that they 223 00:10:31,020 --> 00:10:33,569 Speaker 2: come home? They can say thank you. Thanks for the money. Right? 224 00:10:33,590 --> 00:10:36,650 Speaker 2: Because I'm biased as and I push digital payments at work. 225 00:10:36,659 --> 00:10:38,189 Speaker 2: I want to push this payments at home 226 00:10:38,450 --> 00:10:40,589 Speaker 2: to me. It's the value is the same. How do 227 00:10:40,599 --> 00:10:43,590 Speaker 2: we then communicate that value and let, let the Children 228 00:10:43,599 --> 00:10:46,479 Speaker 2: understand the value is still the same. It's an interesting visceral. 229 00:10:46,729 --> 00:10:49,619 Speaker 2: I think that is a difference between the older generation 230 00:10:49,770 --> 00:10:52,650 Speaker 2: and the middle generation and the younger generation because I 231 00:10:52,659 --> 00:10:55,238 Speaker 2: think for the older ones here, when we spend money, 232 00:10:55,250 --> 00:10:58,530 Speaker 2: we actually feel the tactility of the cash. But I 233 00:10:58,539 --> 00:11:00,739 Speaker 2: don't think that there has been enough research done on 234 00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:03,770 Speaker 2: how does the younger generation understand cash? Because 235 00:11:04,070 --> 00:11:08,669 Speaker 2: digits do they feel that same quality of receiving and 236 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,570 Speaker 2: spending money? Because I think they do, but maybe we 237 00:11:11,580 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 2: don't understand it. It's a different feeling and I don't 238 00:11:13,849 --> 00:11:16,250 Speaker 2: think that we've done enough research in psychology to understand 239 00:11:16,260 --> 00:11:17,859 Speaker 2: that in the first instance. But coming back to your 240 00:11:17,869 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 2: point about inclusion, when we talk about cashless payments, when 241 00:11:21,690 --> 00:11:24,219 Speaker 2: we talk about contactless payments, how about people who are 242 00:11:24,229 --> 00:11:27,609 Speaker 2: visually impaired? For example, how does that impact them? I 243 00:11:27,619 --> 00:11:29,079 Speaker 2: chair for the Board of Engineering, 244 00:11:29,390 --> 00:11:32,669 Speaker 2: we work a lot with disadvantaged people as well as 245 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,919 Speaker 2: the disabled. And this is something which I can't reconcile. 246 00:11:35,929 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 2: We want to go cashless. But what about the people? 247 00:11:39,010 --> 00:11:41,809 Speaker 2: We are not including in this pursuit, how can we 248 00:11:41,820 --> 00:11:45,049 Speaker 2: be inclusive and that specific group? Because if you can't 249 00:11:45,059 --> 00:11:47,900 Speaker 2: see what you're doing in this case, then you really 250 00:11:47,909 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: can't use these platforms. Right. Well, if you talk about 251 00:11:51,650 --> 00:11:54,780 Speaker 2: just cash itself already, it's difficult enough for somebody 252 00:11:54,859 --> 00:11:57,380 Speaker 2: you can't see to pay by cash but what if 253 00:11:57,390 --> 00:12:00,619 Speaker 2: you add in contactless, then forget brail, you're not supposed 254 00:12:00,630 --> 00:12:04,010 Speaker 2: to touch anybody. How does that translate? But then one 255 00:12:04,020 --> 00:12:06,820 Speaker 2: could also argue that as technology develops, there could be 256 00:12:06,830 --> 00:12:10,580 Speaker 2: voice recognition, different platforms which allow you to instruct the 257 00:12:10,590 --> 00:12:13,450 Speaker 2: devices to pay certain exact amount. I don't know. Are 258 00:12:13,460 --> 00:12:15,239 Speaker 2: we there yet today when A Q L payment is 259 00:12:15,250 --> 00:12:18,059 Speaker 2: made at the hawker, right? The merchant is able to 260 00:12:18,070 --> 00:12:20,250 Speaker 2: hear from his his or her mobile phone, 261 00:12:20,530 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: the amount that is being paid. So we are trying 262 00:12:32,299 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: to train more and more of our merchants. The moment 263 00:12:35,289 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 2: of truth is not 264 00:12:36,075 --> 00:12:38,984 Speaker 2: when the customer shows you his or her mobile phone 265 00:12:38,994 --> 00:12:41,414 Speaker 2: is listening to that or checking their own app on 266 00:12:41,424 --> 00:12:43,465 Speaker 2: their phone to see that the what about the customer 267 00:12:43,474 --> 00:12:45,604 Speaker 2: who is may not be able to use that device 268 00:12:45,614 --> 00:12:48,174 Speaker 2: because they can't see it. I personally think whether it's 269 00:12:48,184 --> 00:12:52,094 Speaker 2: cash or digital, there's the element of trust needed. The 270 00:12:52,104 --> 00:12:55,064 Speaker 2: great thing about digital is that it is a digital footprint. 271 00:12:55,380 --> 00:12:59,539 Speaker 2: So with digital foot, there's more tracking and therefore over time, 272 00:12:59,549 --> 00:13:01,108 Speaker 2: I would like to think that it's easier to build 273 00:13:01,119 --> 00:13:04,289 Speaker 2: trust on something that there's a footprint. But I challenge 274 00:13:04,299 --> 00:13:05,978 Speaker 2: you there also because when it comes to R cos 275 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 2: we recently heard of a story where a 60 year 276 00:13:08,590 --> 00:13:12,750 Speaker 2: old woman lost about $20,000 because she scanned a bogus 277 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,169 Speaker 2: QR code. It was outside the bubble tea shop. She 278 00:13:15,179 --> 00:13:19,210 Speaker 2: thought download this app, get a $2 discount, whatever, something 279 00:13:19,219 --> 00:13:20,690 Speaker 2: like that she did. Just that 280 00:13:21,039 --> 00:13:24,369 Speaker 2: next thing, you know, she's down $20,000. In fact, this 281 00:13:24,380 --> 00:13:26,599 Speaker 2: is something that could possibly happen to any of us. 282 00:13:26,719 --> 00:13:28,890 Speaker 2: And looking at the QR code, I have to say 283 00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:31,919 Speaker 2: I can't tell a genuine apart from a fake because 284 00:13:31,929 --> 00:13:33,689 Speaker 2: it's just a QR code, right, at least from a 285 00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:37,359 Speaker 2: payment standpoint. So a QR really just allows you to 286 00:13:37,750 --> 00:13:41,010 Speaker 2: go onto a, a link goes into a website page. 287 00:13:41,210 --> 00:13:43,049 Speaker 2: That's really the purpose of a QR. It's a quick 288 00:13:43,059 --> 00:13:44,770 Speaker 2: response to a link on the web 289 00:13:45,289 --> 00:13:48,580 Speaker 2: for payments. We have a lot of cryptography on the 290 00:13:48,590 --> 00:13:52,690 Speaker 2: QR to verify that QR is authentic before the transaction 291 00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:56,510 Speaker 2: takes place. So within the millisecond, that verification takes place 292 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,500 Speaker 2: whether this QR is real before the transaction takes place, 293 00:13:59,510 --> 00:14:00,968 Speaker 2: even when you take out your bank app and you 294 00:14:00,979 --> 00:14:03,940 Speaker 2: scan the that's not real, the transaction will not take place. 295 00:14:04,169 --> 00:14:06,979 Speaker 2: But in this case, the R code basically brought her 296 00:14:06,989 --> 00:14:08,869 Speaker 2: to an app. You can take your camera and scan 297 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 2: any QR code, right? And that payment will not be done. 298 00:14:11,155 --> 00:14:13,114 Speaker 2: But if you use your bank app to scan a 299 00:14:13,125 --> 00:14:16,204 Speaker 2: QR code for payment, this payment is expected to be done, right? 300 00:14:16,215 --> 00:14:18,194 Speaker 2: And it not one of the QR code is not 301 00:14:18,205 --> 00:14:21,164 Speaker 2: done by us, then there's no cryptography, there's no and 302 00:14:21,174 --> 00:14:23,525 Speaker 2: they will not be authenticated and therefore payment will not. 303 00:14:23,585 --> 00:14:27,335 Speaker 2: So in her case, she a payment platform to scan 304 00:14:27,344 --> 00:14:29,934 Speaker 2: a QR code, nothing would have worked. But she basically 305 00:14:30,255 --> 00:14:33,614 Speaker 2: scan her camera to go to this website, which was, 306 00:14:33,715 --> 00:14:35,364 Speaker 2: which is the same with the same of going to 307 00:14:35,375 --> 00:14:36,494 Speaker 2: any other website. There is bogus. 308 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,940 Speaker 2: There was a time in the middle of last year 309 00:14:42,950 --> 00:14:45,390 Speaker 2: when it seemed that the China we are familiar with 310 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,690 Speaker 2: was a completely different place when the rest of the 311 00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:52,700 Speaker 2: world moved on from the COVID-19 pandemic. As many as 312 00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:56,580 Speaker 2: 300 million Chinese people were under some form of a 313 00:14:56,590 --> 00:14:57,989 Speaker 2: mandatory lockdown. 314 00:15:02,270 --> 00:15:04,729 Speaker 2: There were only two things on my mind to find 315 00:15:04,739 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: food and to not go crazy. 316 00:15:07,989 --> 00:15:11,820 Speaker 2: Then suddenly the people decided to take things into their 317 00:15:11,830 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 2: own hands 318 00:15:14,770 --> 00:15:18,510 Speaker 2: for the first time in more than 30 years, protests 319 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:23,340 Speaker 2: swept through China and just like that Z Cove ended, 320 00:15:24,770 --> 00:15:27,580 Speaker 2: join me, we do for a look back at the 321 00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:31,349 Speaker 2: extraordinary year in China and hear how it might have 322 00:15:31,359 --> 00:15:33,900 Speaker 2: changed the country for good. 323 00:15:34,580 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 2: Catch a red wall inside China's zero COVID World, a 324 00:15:38,849 --> 00:15:42,770 Speaker 2: two part podcast series by C N A. It's available 325 00:15:42,780 --> 00:15:46,530 Speaker 2: now on the C N A and me listen, apps, Spotify, 326 00:15:46,539 --> 00:15:48,650 Speaker 2: Apple and Google podcasts. 327 00:15:50,460 --> 00:15:52,510 Speaker 2: That's a challenge with technology, right? We want it to 328 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 2: be convenient, accessible, easily available. So me and is this 329 00:15:56,650 --> 00:15:59,289 Speaker 2: a concern again with a population that may not be 330 00:15:59,299 --> 00:16:03,130 Speaker 2: as tech savvy with somebody in my family, my mom 331 00:16:03,140 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: having dementia? Definitely, it's a very, very big concern. I 332 00:16:06,330 --> 00:16:08,469 Speaker 2: love the fact that we are talking about. For example, 333 00:16:08,479 --> 00:16:11,210 Speaker 2: voice activated commands. Yes, it's a bit boring. I want 334 00:16:11,219 --> 00:16:14,599 Speaker 2: 60 received et cetera. But asking those questions, are we 335 00:16:14,609 --> 00:16:16,130 Speaker 2: inclusive having inclusion 336 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,500 Speaker 2: by design and asking those questions? I think it's a 337 00:16:18,510 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 2: first start in the first instance. And then the second 338 00:16:21,090 --> 00:16:23,940 Speaker 2: thing is really important digital literacy. But we've got to 339 00:16:23,950 --> 00:16:27,219 Speaker 2: understand that that digital literacy is not just for one 340 00:16:27,229 --> 00:16:29,890 Speaker 2: segment of the population. I think you have to understand 341 00:16:29,900 --> 00:16:33,510 Speaker 2: like what fa said, understanding and educating your staff as 342 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,859 Speaker 2: well to ensure that they can do inclusion when they 343 00:16:36,869 --> 00:16:39,239 Speaker 2: speak with customers as well. I believe that that's probably 344 00:16:39,250 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: what you have as well in your part of the 345 00:16:41,010 --> 00:16:41,809 Speaker 2: training 346 00:16:42,250 --> 00:16:44,739 Speaker 2: when you come on board as a staff actually. Ok. 347 00:16:44,919 --> 00:16:49,130 Speaker 2: But what you do is not standard for everyone, right? No, 348 00:16:49,140 --> 00:16:52,590 Speaker 2: it's not. And I think because of our youth, we 349 00:16:52,599 --> 00:16:55,090 Speaker 2: do and we want to be able to keep up 350 00:16:55,099 --> 00:16:55,940 Speaker 2: with the trend 351 00:16:56,210 --> 00:17:00,539 Speaker 2: and not lose out on people who actually prefer digital payments. 352 00:17:00,739 --> 00:17:03,289 Speaker 2: That's why we actually make the extra effort to kind 353 00:17:03,299 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 2: of educate ourselves on how to recognize a print screen. 354 00:17:07,170 --> 00:17:10,229 Speaker 2: It could be a screen grab or if the, if 355 00:17:10,239 --> 00:17:14,380 Speaker 2: the payment method um is uh false or it's not 356 00:17:14,390 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 2: accepted by the S G. QR, these things we know 357 00:17:18,689 --> 00:17:19,579 Speaker 2: because we use 358 00:17:19,708 --> 00:17:22,078 Speaker 2: and we are users, we're young and we're able to 359 00:17:22,088 --> 00:17:24,409 Speaker 2: learn more about them in our own time. But my 360 00:17:24,417 --> 00:17:29,458 Speaker 2: fellow older hawkers, I'm actually the chairman of a Hawker Association. 361 00:17:29,688 --> 00:17:31,958 Speaker 2: I do get a lot of feedback from the older 362 00:17:31,968 --> 00:17:36,609 Speaker 2: hawkers where there have been times they've been scammed not 363 00:17:36,619 --> 00:17:40,538 Speaker 2: once but twice by the same customer of about $14 364 00:17:40,548 --> 00:17:43,139 Speaker 2: in total because she would come and then she 365 00:17:43,209 --> 00:17:46,180 Speaker 2: show a screen and we don't have time. I say 366 00:17:46,189 --> 00:17:48,900 Speaker 2: during lunch time, we like, you pay me, you show me, 367 00:17:48,910 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 2: you take your fish soup, you go. If someone lingers longer, 368 00:17:52,930 --> 00:17:55,089 Speaker 2: most times at the back, you will be like, why 369 00:17:55,099 --> 00:17:57,989 Speaker 2: is this customer taking so long? You know, so the 370 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,930 Speaker 2: Hawker has no choice but to quickly glance and then 371 00:18:01,939 --> 00:18:05,180 Speaker 2: give the product that she thought was paid for, but 372 00:18:05,189 --> 00:18:06,619 Speaker 2: it actually was not and 373 00:18:06,869 --> 00:18:10,030 Speaker 2: $14 just gone. And can you imagine if every day 374 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,719 Speaker 2: she was scared of $14 it amounts to quite a 375 00:18:12,729 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 2: fair bit. Other than that. Sometimes the phone, even though 376 00:18:16,530 --> 00:18:17,938 Speaker 2: there is voice activation, 377 00:18:18,209 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 2: sometimes the connectivity is not great. They might be connected 378 00:18:21,369 --> 00:18:24,589 Speaker 2: to wireless S G at the Hawker Center, which is great. 379 00:18:24,599 --> 00:18:28,959 Speaker 2: We have but sometimes if it's not great connectivity, it hangs. 380 00:18:28,969 --> 00:18:32,849 Speaker 2: So then there's no $2.30 received. Don't have. So what 381 00:18:32,859 --> 00:18:36,169 Speaker 2: happens then does the Hawker say? Oh, I want to 382 00:18:36,180 --> 00:18:37,829 Speaker 2: see your phone. Can I see your phone? Sometimes the 383 00:18:37,839 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 2: customer gets offended. 384 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,969 Speaker 2: How do we prevent this? We know because we get 385 00:18:42,979 --> 00:18:45,150 Speaker 2: the stuff to check the phones, we get the stuff 386 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,339 Speaker 2: to see if it's a live screen. And most times, unfortunately, 387 00:18:49,349 --> 00:18:53,869 Speaker 2: if you're exposed to all the payment gateways, every payment 388 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,790 Speaker 2: receipt screen is different. Some of them are not life. 389 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,089 Speaker 2: You can't see. Some of them don't even show the 390 00:18:59,099 --> 00:19:01,899 Speaker 2: actual amount that you pay because there's like cash back 391 00:19:01,910 --> 00:19:05,310 Speaker 2: or rebates, which is what pay actually offers. 392 00:19:05,390 --> 00:19:08,699 Speaker 2: So for 1060 cents, if they have a 52 cent discount, 393 00:19:08,709 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 2: it shows $1.08. And you're like, no, you pay one 394 00:19:12,650 --> 00:19:14,939 Speaker 2: oh eight only. The drink is 1 60 you say, 395 00:19:14,949 --> 00:19:16,719 Speaker 2: oh no, no, no, I got cash back. But you've 396 00:19:16,729 --> 00:19:20,890 Speaker 2: already pushed it away. So these little little things actually 397 00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:23,939 Speaker 2: amount to a lot and at my store we have, 398 00:19:24,430 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 2: we have a long queue and we try to clear 399 00:19:26,290 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 2: the queue as fast as possible. So you get your drink, 400 00:19:28,650 --> 00:19:30,930 Speaker 2: turn over fast, you make more money, you know. But 401 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,839 Speaker 2: these little little things that's sort of like technology working 402 00:19:35,849 --> 00:19:38,469 Speaker 2: against you ironically, because there are so many different platforms 403 00:19:38,479 --> 00:19:40,770 Speaker 2: to want to ride on offer a discount, you know, 404 00:19:40,780 --> 00:19:43,469 Speaker 2: and things like that actually, if they had just paid 405 00:19:43,479 --> 00:19:46,469 Speaker 2: you in cash, life would have been a lot simpler. Right? 406 00:19:47,859 --> 00:19:51,179 Speaker 2: Because the fact that I don't have to give change, 407 00:19:51,329 --> 00:19:53,790 Speaker 2: I can do a lot of other things. You may 408 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,699 Speaker 2: not think it's much, but five seconds to us is 409 00:19:55,709 --> 00:19:56,948 Speaker 2: a lot of time 410 00:19:57,449 --> 00:19:59,660 Speaker 2: and we can do a lot of things in five seconds. Thanks. 411 00:19:59,670 --> 00:20:02,349 Speaker 2: Thanks for saying that. The last part I think, I 412 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,510 Speaker 2: think we're very conscious of two things. One is what 413 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,130 Speaker 2: we call again in the payment space, we call syndicated fraud. Right? 414 00:20:10,140 --> 00:20:14,670 Speaker 2: If the syndicated fault, we are very nervous. Fortunately, maybe 415 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,369 Speaker 2: in low ticket size, syndicated fraud is much less a 416 00:20:17,380 --> 00:20:20,020 Speaker 2: possibility because there are many other places for the syndicates 417 00:20:20,030 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 2: to make money. 418 00:20:21,229 --> 00:20:23,689 Speaker 2: Then how do we prevent in what we call? The 419 00:20:23,699 --> 00:20:26,750 Speaker 2: average Joe and average Joe Ford can be. As you said, 420 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,909 Speaker 2: the poor merchant can be fed on a daily basis 421 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,569 Speaker 2: by the same guy showing the same screenshot, which is 422 00:20:32,579 --> 00:20:34,819 Speaker 2: not a real life transaction, right? I won't say we 423 00:20:34,829 --> 00:20:36,979 Speaker 2: are perfect as if we've got all the answers. But 424 00:20:36,989 --> 00:20:39,170 Speaker 2: as we learn, we try to improve. I mean, firstly, 425 00:20:39,180 --> 00:20:41,130 Speaker 2: we try to teach all our merchants the single source 426 00:20:41,140 --> 00:20:43,319 Speaker 2: of truth is your own phone. Whether you look at 427 00:20:43,329 --> 00:20:45,968 Speaker 2: it or whether you hear the voice, totally hear you 428 00:20:45,979 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 2: in terms of sometimes 429 00:20:47,589 --> 00:20:50,198 Speaker 2: now less, but in the beginning much more where the 430 00:20:50,209 --> 00:20:52,489 Speaker 2: reception is no good. My phone is down. I don't 431 00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:55,300 Speaker 2: know whether it is authenticated, it is transacted. So now 432 00:20:55,310 --> 00:20:56,729 Speaker 2: we put it in a new feature as well on 433 00:20:56,739 --> 00:20:58,670 Speaker 2: your own phone, your from your app, you can look 434 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,609 Speaker 2: at your last transactions even if it's hanging after a 435 00:21:01,619 --> 00:21:04,089 Speaker 2: few seconds or a minute you check, hopefully he's eating 436 00:21:04,099 --> 00:21:04,969 Speaker 2: in front of you. You can go and show you 437 00:21:04,979 --> 00:21:07,069 Speaker 2: you never pay again. We try to train our merchants 438 00:21:07,079 --> 00:21:10,459 Speaker 2: not to look or to ask for the the consumer's phone. 439 00:21:10,469 --> 00:21:12,790 Speaker 2: There are so many apps, very hard to train the 440 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:13,839 Speaker 2: merchant to read every app. 441 00:21:14,130 --> 00:21:17,459 Speaker 2: We're trying to understand all the different ways that can 442 00:21:17,469 --> 00:21:20,010 Speaker 2: scam a. So, I mean, does it make sense then 443 00:21:20,020 --> 00:21:22,660 Speaker 2: to have a more consistent approach where perhaps there is 444 00:21:22,670 --> 00:21:27,500 Speaker 2: one international standard that a certain sound, a certain screen, 445 00:21:27,510 --> 00:21:31,139 Speaker 2: that whichever payment platform you use will have to show 446 00:21:31,150 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: that you have paid. For example, I think for Singapore 447 00:21:33,290 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: Nets is very fortunate because we 448 00:21:35,405 --> 00:21:37,754 Speaker 2: majority of the share and we are, we're able to 449 00:21:37,765 --> 00:21:41,015 Speaker 2: provide this service to our community in Singapore. So it's 450 00:21:41,025 --> 00:21:43,535 Speaker 2: pretty standard I would say in Singapore because we provide 451 00:21:43,545 --> 00:21:46,274 Speaker 2: mainly for Q acceptance, whether it's called the Heartland Go 452 00:21:46,285 --> 00:21:48,724 Speaker 2: Digital Initiative. But law, I also have to ask you 453 00:21:48,734 --> 00:21:51,515 Speaker 2: what happens when the payment goes wrong. Either the wrong 454 00:21:51,525 --> 00:21:55,165 Speaker 2: payment is given or taken. The thing is very often 455 00:21:55,175 --> 00:21:56,834 Speaker 2: once it's gone, it's gone. 456 00:21:57,109 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 2: Actually just like cash. Once it's gone, it's usually gone factually, 457 00:22:00,170 --> 00:22:03,489 Speaker 2: totally right. If you use er one of the international 458 00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:07,589 Speaker 2: payment schemes, there's this concept called chargeback dispute, the official 459 00:22:07,599 --> 00:22:10,369 Speaker 2: rules and charge back rules in place where you can dispute. 460 00:22:10,609 --> 00:22:13,989 Speaker 2: But even for our QR payments today in Singapore, I 461 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,199 Speaker 2: think we've had many cases in the press where 462 00:22:17,500 --> 00:22:20,889 Speaker 2: there have been very successful attempts to get your money back, 463 00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 2: whether it is it is the merchant paying the consumer 464 00:22:22,810 --> 00:22:25,310 Speaker 2: back because he put the zero the decimal point in 465 00:22:25,319 --> 00:22:27,959 Speaker 2: the wrong place or potentially even the bank giving the 466 00:22:27,969 --> 00:22:30,219 Speaker 2: money back to the consumer. Even though there are no 467 00:22:30,229 --> 00:22:32,670 Speaker 2: rules in place that you have the right to dispute 468 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,989 Speaker 2: the transaction. We have been able to still gain the 469 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,599 Speaker 2: trust because there hasn't been any case where. But in 470 00:22:37,609 --> 00:22:38,530 Speaker 2: that respect, it is 471 00:22:38,609 --> 00:22:41,699 Speaker 2: kind of similar to cash. The onus almost relies on 472 00:22:41,709 --> 00:22:44,319 Speaker 2: the other party who has received it, to be honest 473 00:22:44,329 --> 00:22:46,250 Speaker 2: and to be willing to sort of give back if 474 00:22:46,260 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 2: it was a mistaken amount, things like that, right? So 475 00:22:49,890 --> 00:22:52,449 Speaker 2: move on quickly to the future because we have a 476 00:22:52,459 --> 00:22:55,969 Speaker 2: digital road map for Singapore as well. But as me highlighted, 477 00:22:55,979 --> 00:22:58,939 Speaker 2: there are certain pockets or groups that we have seemed 478 00:22:58,949 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 2: to have left out. 479 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:02,770 Speaker 2: Do you feel in this road map that those areas 480 00:23:02,780 --> 00:23:05,689 Speaker 2: are still neglected? I do think that there is a 481 00:23:05,699 --> 00:23:09,050 Speaker 2: lot of ways that we still need to improve on. 482 00:23:09,109 --> 00:23:11,150 Speaker 2: The one thing which I will continue to harp on 483 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 2: is I think we need to continue to ask the questions. 484 00:23:13,449 --> 00:23:15,969 Speaker 2: I think that we need to continue to demand more 485 00:23:15,979 --> 00:23:18,260 Speaker 2: from each of us. One thing which I really enjoy 486 00:23:18,270 --> 00:23:21,489 Speaker 2: about the Singapore policymakers dilemma is that even though we 487 00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:24,698 Speaker 2: do have multiple ways of payments, et cetera. We are 488 00:23:24,709 --> 00:23:26,468 Speaker 2: constantly always improving. I'll give you 489 00:23:26,556 --> 00:23:30,926 Speaker 2: example when Singapore first started with cashless payments and credit cards. 490 00:23:30,936 --> 00:23:33,735 Speaker 2: For example, one of the challenges that merchants were facing 491 00:23:33,744 --> 00:23:36,816 Speaker 2: was my table. Not enough space for all of these 492 00:23:36,826 --> 00:23:39,105 Speaker 2: terminals can, is there, is there a way that we 493 00:23:39,115 --> 00:23:41,715 Speaker 2: can start to harmonize? So we, we did something about 494 00:23:41,725 --> 00:23:44,176 Speaker 2: that because after a while it sort of consolidated and 495 00:23:44,186 --> 00:23:47,306 Speaker 2: I think very much pushed by the government, pushing, pushing, pushing. 496 00:23:47,455 --> 00:23:50,605 Speaker 2: Here's another example, more recent QR code. So we talk 497 00:23:50,615 --> 00:23:52,845 Speaker 2: about R code at first when QR Codes came out, 498 00:23:52,855 --> 00:23:53,105 Speaker 2: I don't know 499 00:23:53,192 --> 00:23:56,771 Speaker 2: whether you guys remember 10,000 QR codes everywhere. And then 500 00:23:56,781 --> 00:23:58,941 Speaker 2: after the M E I said not sorry S G 501 00:23:58,952 --> 00:24:02,192 Speaker 2: QR because just too many QR codes. So we are 502 00:24:02,202 --> 00:24:04,852 Speaker 2: actually very much in the process of learning. And I 503 00:24:04,862 --> 00:24:07,052 Speaker 2: love the fact that we are always constantly improving. We 504 00:24:07,061 --> 00:24:10,081 Speaker 2: just need to demand that of ourselves out of each other. OK. 505 00:24:10,092 --> 00:24:12,442 Speaker 2: And that should be the way. But are those groups, 506 00:24:12,452 --> 00:24:15,401 Speaker 2: the vulnerable groups still left out of the loop? I 507 00:24:15,411 --> 00:24:18,521 Speaker 2: do think so. There still isn't a lot of understanding. 508 00:24:18,531 --> 00:24:19,741 Speaker 2: For example, I didn't know about 509 00:24:19,828 --> 00:24:23,057 Speaker 2: the voice activation and people aren't touching that on possibly 510 00:24:23,067 --> 00:24:25,477 Speaker 2: switching it off because noise pollution, why every time we 511 00:24:27,598 --> 00:24:31,468 Speaker 2: choose the kind of voice that says $2.60 we can 512 00:24:31,547 --> 00:24:33,987 Speaker 2: choose the voice but the volume, we actually try to 513 00:24:33,998 --> 00:24:36,387 Speaker 2: max it out in each device. So we've got different 514 00:24:36,397 --> 00:24:39,118 Speaker 2: types of vulnerable groups. I've spoken a little bit about 515 00:24:39,128 --> 00:24:42,248 Speaker 2: people who are deaf, people who have dementia. There's lots 516 00:24:42,258 --> 00:24:45,238 Speaker 2: of different types of vulnerabilities that exist. We haven't even 517 00:24:45,248 --> 00:24:46,137 Speaker 2: started talking about 518 00:24:46,463 --> 00:24:50,114 Speaker 2: structural vulnerabilities. For example, how are we building a resilient 519 00:24:50,124 --> 00:24:54,524 Speaker 2: payments ecosystem for everybody? And in a way, the policy 520 00:24:54,534 --> 00:24:56,332 Speaker 2: makers may think, well, let me get the system working 521 00:24:56,343 --> 00:24:59,283 Speaker 2: right first, then I will start thinking of the alternatives 522 00:24:59,292 --> 00:25:02,024 Speaker 2: of how to cater to these different vulnerable groups. But 523 00:25:02,034 --> 00:25:04,234 Speaker 2: at the same time, one would say that technology is 524 00:25:04,244 --> 00:25:06,994 Speaker 2: the one platform that can be used to really make 525 00:25:07,004 --> 00:25:10,943 Speaker 2: it more accessible to everyone, including these vulnerable groups. There's 526 00:25:10,953 --> 00:25:12,792 Speaker 2: a little bit of a chicken and egg going on 527 00:25:12,803 --> 00:25:13,014 Speaker 2: and 528 00:25:13,229 --> 00:25:15,958 Speaker 2: maybe time in that sense will, will sort itself up. 529 00:25:15,969 --> 00:25:18,709 Speaker 2: It is like building the airplane while it's still flying. 530 00:25:18,719 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 2: So definitely that demand is extremely high of each of us. 531 00:25:23,010 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 2: But I think that we're asking the right questions. But 532 00:25:24,890 --> 00:25:28,479 Speaker 2: to your point about are there still vulnerable groups being excluded? 533 00:25:28,489 --> 00:25:30,619 Speaker 2: I'm going to say yes, unfortunately, there are, but we 534 00:25:30,630 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 2: are working towards a solution. I think with everything the 535 00:25:33,410 --> 00:25:35,630 Speaker 2: way it is, we all know now that in this 536 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:36,938 Speaker 2: day and age when 537 00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:40,670 Speaker 2: the internet goes down, when your online banking doesn't work, 538 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 2: it's a major, major issue. I mean, the world stands still. 539 00:25:44,810 --> 00:25:47,139 Speaker 2: In fact, we can all say sorry, I can't work anymore. 540 00:25:47,150 --> 00:25:49,780 Speaker 2: There's no wifi, you know, there's a so Laurence, I 541 00:25:49,790 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 2: have to ask you what happens if one day something 542 00:25:52,650 --> 00:25:56,910 Speaker 2: like that happens from a policy standpoint that M E 543 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,180 Speaker 2: S tries to lead, there's almost always a backup to 544 00:26:00,189 --> 00:26:03,050 Speaker 2: make sure that the country doesn't come to a standstill. 545 00:26:03,410 --> 00:26:05,949 Speaker 2: We invest a lot to definitely not even have to 546 00:26:05,959 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 2: depend on that backup because it takes a lot of time, 547 00:26:09,369 --> 00:26:11,829 Speaker 2: it takes a lot of investments to build the trust 548 00:26:12,060 --> 00:26:16,290 Speaker 2: with both the consumer and the merchant. It's very easy 549 00:26:16,300 --> 00:26:18,030 Speaker 2: to lose that trust. So I think the amount of 550 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,530 Speaker 2: investments that we've made from a safety and soundness, a 551 00:26:20,540 --> 00:26:24,859 Speaker 2: security standpoint is there today. We do have backups for 552 00:26:24,869 --> 00:26:28,150 Speaker 2: almost any payment that is required today. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, 553 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:29,939 Speaker 2: we need to have a backup for the backup as well, 554 00:26:29,949 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 2: you know. 555 00:26:30,670 --> 00:26:32,859 Speaker 2: Ok. Uh we just got to wrap things up. We 556 00:26:32,869 --> 00:26:34,979 Speaker 2: know that technology is here to stay, these platforms are 557 00:26:34,989 --> 00:26:37,369 Speaker 2: here to stay as well. But if you had the 558 00:26:37,380 --> 00:26:40,718 Speaker 2: option to change something to improve or something or to 559 00:26:40,729 --> 00:26:42,829 Speaker 2: add something, I mean, what would it be? And what 560 00:26:42,839 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 2: would you like to see? Especially because I'm on the 561 00:26:45,130 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 2: ground and I'm both a merchant as well as I 562 00:26:48,890 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 2: am a consumer and a customer. I deal with both 563 00:26:52,050 --> 00:26:53,698 Speaker 2: sides of everyday 564 00:26:53,795 --> 00:26:58,444 Speaker 2: specialist transactions. I do plead for a little bit more understanding. 565 00:26:58,454 --> 00:27:01,885 Speaker 2: I think both as a customer and as merchants, I 566 00:27:01,905 --> 00:27:03,704 Speaker 2: think in the beginning, maybe earlier. I might have sounded 567 00:27:03,714 --> 00:27:07,484 Speaker 2: a little defensive but I am all for digital payments. 568 00:27:07,494 --> 00:27:11,714 Speaker 2: I do think that everyone, whether it's old hawker auntie 569 00:27:11,734 --> 00:27:16,804 Speaker 2: or a young customer, that everyone has that responsibility to 570 00:27:17,089 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 2: do their own digital literacy research, you know, to be 571 00:27:21,050 --> 00:27:24,649 Speaker 2: informed of how it works, how it should work for 572 00:27:24,660 --> 00:27:26,938 Speaker 2: both ways and, you know, just be a little bit 573 00:27:26,949 --> 00:27:30,290 Speaker 2: more gracious at the point of transaction, whether it could 574 00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 2: be 575 00:27:30,959 --> 00:27:35,250 Speaker 2: during a breakdown like there's no wifi or what, you know, 576 00:27:35,469 --> 00:27:39,369 Speaker 2: if there's no wifi, turn off your wifi and connect 577 00:27:39,380 --> 00:27:42,030 Speaker 2: to your own four G. If there's no four G 578 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:47,010 Speaker 2: use cash, don't be insistent on paying by a certain 579 00:27:47,020 --> 00:27:49,569 Speaker 2: matter just because you want that cash back. Sometimes. I 580 00:27:49,579 --> 00:27:51,859 Speaker 2: think you have to look at the bigger picture and 581 00:27:51,869 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 2: think for others, not just for yourself, if that is 582 00:27:55,209 --> 00:27:58,770 Speaker 2: adopted by everybody, I do think that digital payment would 583 00:27:58,780 --> 00:27:59,189 Speaker 2: be 584 00:27:59,285 --> 00:28:03,645 Speaker 2: more of a encouraging thing, less self suppression. So yeah, 585 00:28:03,655 --> 00:28:05,574 Speaker 2: so it does sound like it should be one of 586 00:28:05,584 --> 00:28:07,805 Speaker 2: the tools you use, but not the only one and 587 00:28:07,814 --> 00:28:10,135 Speaker 2: be willing to just use other things too. And that's 588 00:28:10,145 --> 00:28:12,814 Speaker 2: from both the customer and the merchants point of view. 589 00:28:12,824 --> 00:28:14,964 Speaker 2: If you have problems, let me help you. If it's 590 00:28:14,974 --> 00:28:18,254 Speaker 2: really not working, you know, try tomorrow and if you 591 00:28:18,265 --> 00:28:19,895 Speaker 2: are nice enough, you can come back and pay me 592 00:28:19,905 --> 00:28:23,415 Speaker 2: for the coffee tomorrow. We do that. No problem. I'm here. 593 00:28:23,425 --> 00:28:26,145 Speaker 2: You know, 1 60 is not a big deal, he's 594 00:28:26,155 --> 00:28:27,145 Speaker 2: gonna drop you tomorrow 595 00:28:29,819 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 2: cash only. I think for me as the director of 596 00:28:32,890 --> 00:28:36,079 Speaker 2: the Fair Tech Institute, we want to make sure that 597 00:28:36,089 --> 00:28:38,839 Speaker 2: we're not fatalistic about technology. We're not just hit up 598 00:28:38,849 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 2: on the technology. We want to ask ourselves what exactly 599 00:28:41,410 --> 00:28:44,930 Speaker 2: is fair. And I would say moving forward with all 600 00:28:44,939 --> 00:28:47,650 Speaker 2: of our policies, I would like to say, let's look 601 00:28:47,660 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 2: at how fair the policy is being. Are we moving 602 00:28:50,569 --> 00:28:54,479 Speaker 2: towards fully cashless and just being super focused on the 603 00:28:54,489 --> 00:28:56,339 Speaker 2: cashless without looking at the fairness of. 604 00:28:56,415 --> 00:28:59,515 Speaker 2: But I'd say, ask ourselves what exactly is a fair 605 00:28:59,525 --> 00:29:03,025 Speaker 2: tech policy that we're going to be moving towards Lawrence? 606 00:29:03,204 --> 00:29:05,864 Speaker 2: And next, we have a purpose statement and these four 607 00:29:05,875 --> 00:29:08,675 Speaker 2: words are quite important for us and our purpose statement 608 00:29:08,685 --> 00:29:12,834 Speaker 2: is connecting communities, empowering lives. We, we truly believe that 609 00:29:12,844 --> 00:29:16,584 Speaker 2: what we do can help make a difference to individuals, 610 00:29:16,594 --> 00:29:21,185 Speaker 2: empower their lives, sellers and potentially even connect communities. And 611 00:29:21,194 --> 00:29:24,364 Speaker 2: now today, even across geographies, uh not just within Singapore. 612 00:29:24,890 --> 00:29:27,430 Speaker 2: What we hope to see is what has been said 613 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,069 Speaker 2: so far is not so much the the means, but 614 00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 2: really the end. So how can we use technology to 615 00:29:33,569 --> 00:29:36,300 Speaker 2: help us reach that end? And really, our focus is 616 00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:39,020 Speaker 2: really trying to connect people, connect communities and power life 617 00:29:39,030 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 2: is really what we hope to be able to do 618 00:29:40,890 --> 00:29:43,849 Speaker 2: with digital payments. So it really sounds like, you know, well, 619 00:29:43,859 --> 00:29:46,739 Speaker 2: there are many things working for us on these digital platforms. 620 00:29:46,750 --> 00:29:48,939 Speaker 2: There are also some things that still need a bit 621 00:29:48,949 --> 00:29:51,500 Speaker 2: of work and I guess that is an evolving process 622 00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 2: that will continue to take place all the time. 623 00:29:53,910 --> 00:29:56,719 Speaker 2: But I also wonder if it's a concern just for 624 00:29:56,729 --> 00:29:59,339 Speaker 2: the here and now because I'm thinking about it when 625 00:29:59,349 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 2: my kids are all grown up 20 years from now. Actually, 626 00:30:02,650 --> 00:30:04,930 Speaker 2: this could be the norm for them. They won't struggle 627 00:30:04,939 --> 00:30:07,339 Speaker 2: with using these platforms because they've grown up using it. 628 00:30:07,660 --> 00:30:11,170 Speaker 2: There will definitely be fewer bank branches, small payment platforms 629 00:30:11,380 --> 00:30:15,510 Speaker 2: and most certainly far less cash in the system. I 630 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,079 Speaker 2: also recall the story of how about 56 years ago, 631 00:30:18,089 --> 00:30:20,349 Speaker 2: my mother-in-law who is now in her nineties had no 632 00:30:20,359 --> 00:30:23,719 Speaker 2: idea what whatsapp is right. We were so glad we 633 00:30:23,729 --> 00:30:25,569 Speaker 2: taught her prior to the pandemic because 634 00:30:25,670 --> 00:30:29,790 Speaker 2: she became the most prolific um sender of messages and 635 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,300 Speaker 2: photos and you know, and, and thanks to her grandchildren 636 00:30:32,310 --> 00:30:33,660 Speaker 2: who taught her how to use it. So I think 637 00:30:33,670 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 2: we got to look at it that way. If someone 638 00:30:35,290 --> 00:30:36,790 Speaker 2: you see at the shop doesn't know how to use 639 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 2: the app, take them aside, help them for a few minutes. 640 00:30:39,410 --> 00:30:41,359 Speaker 2: It's not too much to ask. Maybe you get a 641 00:30:42,060 --> 00:30:43,619 Speaker 2: in return once they figure out how to do it. 642 00:30:44,199 --> 00:30:45,630 Speaker 2: But thank you all for coming in and for all 643 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,079 Speaker 2: of you listening in. We hope you've enjoyed the discussion. 644 00:30:48,099 --> 00:30:50,260 Speaker 2: As usual, if you got any feedback, do send it 645 00:30:50,270 --> 00:30:52,489 Speaker 2: our way. You can always jump on to my social 646 00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 2: media platforms and drop me a note or you can 647 00:30:54,770 --> 00:30:57,479 Speaker 2: email us at C N A podcast at media co 648 00:30:57,609 --> 00:31:00,300 Speaker 2: dot com dot S G. The C N A podcast 649 00:31:00,310 --> 00:31:05,079 Speaker 2: team comprises Jacqueline Chan, Joanne Chan, Tiffany Angy and Christina Robert. 650 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,369 Speaker 2: Till next time, this is Stephen saying, keep talking, keep connecting.