WEBVTT - Lab-grown diamonds: Are they really better for the planet? 0:00:00.270 --> 0:00:02.589 You're listening to a CNA podcast. 0:00:04.849 --> 0:00:08.760 They say diamonds are a girl's best friend, but they've 0:00:08.770 --> 0:00:13.130 gotten a reputation for being the environment's enemy to combat. 0:00:13.140 --> 0:00:16.190 Not just the reputation of the harm that mining diamonds 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:19.340 does to people in the earth. Lab grown diamonds have 0:00:19.350 --> 0:00:23.909 become popular over the years. The best part, unless under 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.209 the most trained eye, no one can tell the difference. 0:00:27.819 --> 0:00:31.120 But are they really as environmentally friendly as they claim 0:00:31.129 --> 0:00:31.649 to be 0:00:32.029 --> 0:00:35.860 my guest today is Ryan Sherman, the co-founder and chief 0:00:35.869 --> 0:00:39.700 alchemist at Ether Diamonds in the US to find out 0:00:39.709 --> 0:00:44.220 if lab grown diamonds can help combat climate change. Welcome, Ryan, 0:00:44.369 --> 0:00:45.258 thanks for having me. 0:00:45.709 --> 0:00:49.040 First of all, I will wonder what got you into 0:00:49.049 --> 0:00:52.099 the world of lab grown diamonds. Well, early in my career, 0:00:52.110 --> 0:00:54.020 I had spent some time working in the jewelry industry, 0:00:54.029 --> 0:00:57.430 developing products for an international jewelry brand based in New 0:00:57.439 --> 0:01:00.990 York City, David while I was there and familiarized myself 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:02.240 with the diamond supply chain. 0:01:02.540 --> 0:01:04.259 And it was at that point when I started to 0:01:04.269 --> 0:01:07.139 feel conflicted about how it was, you know, the industry 0:01:07.150 --> 0:01:12.169 at large was sourcing their gemstones fast forward in about 2018, 0:01:12.180 --> 0:01:15.239 it was, we conceived the idea of making diamonds from 0:01:15.250 --> 0:01:16.349 captured Co2 0:01:16.650 --> 0:01:20.319 and it was gratifying in that this new approach could 0:01:20.330 --> 0:01:23.500 address issues that I struggled with as a professional working 0:01:23.510 --> 0:01:26.019 in the industry. And this was an exciting opportunity to 0:01:26.029 --> 0:01:28.779 step back into an industry that I rather liked and 0:01:28.790 --> 0:01:31.629 appreciated and drive real change. So Ryan give us a 0:01:31.639 --> 0:01:35.000 brief history of lab grown or manmade diamonds. And when 0:01:35.010 --> 0:01:39.160 did lab grown diamonds really take off and why commercially 0:01:39.169 --> 0:01:40.599 lab grown diamonds have really had their 0:01:40.693 --> 0:01:43.892 moment in just the last half a decade. That said 0:01:43.902 --> 0:01:46.902 the first lab grown diamonds were first produced in the 0:01:46.913 --> 0:01:49.883 19 fifties and it was actually General Electric who had 0:01:49.892 --> 0:01:53.063 a team of engineers who successfully cracked the code for 0:01:53.072 --> 0:01:56.833 replicating the process by which we see diamonds formed deep 0:01:56.843 --> 0:02:00.142 inside the earth through high pressure and high temperature. Today, 0:02:00.152 --> 0:02:04.502 chemical vapor deposition is the leading technological solution for producing diamonds. 0:02:04.736 --> 0:02:06.486 Just tell us what does it take to get the 0:02:06.496 --> 0:02:08.876 carbon out of the air and walk us through what 0:02:08.886 --> 0:02:11.424 it takes to turn the lightest thing on earth air 0:02:11.436 --> 0:02:14.296 into one of the earth's hardest, which is diamonds. The 0:02:14.305 --> 0:02:16.785 first step in the process is to capture the co 0:02:16.796 --> 0:02:19.345 two through direct air capture from there, we convert it 0:02:19.356 --> 0:02:22.466 into a usable material. In our case, methane, we call 0:02:22.475 --> 0:02:26.225 this atmospheric methane. So we combine co two with green 0:02:26.235 --> 0:02:29.615 hydrogen to create CH four which is methane gas that 0:02:29.626 --> 0:02:32.525 methane gas is then injected into the diamond reactor. 0:02:32.929 --> 0:02:35.309 It is hit with a microwave, much like what you 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:38.160 find in your kitchen just much more powerful and the 0:02:38.169 --> 0:02:41.399 hydrogen excites into a plasma state. So the C four 0:02:41.410 --> 0:02:44.940 that's in the chamber separates the carbon that was in 0:02:44.949 --> 0:02:46.860 the CH four starts to fall to the bottom of 0:02:46.869 --> 0:02:50.929 the chamber, almost like snowfall and it lands on top 0:02:50.940 --> 0:02:54.559 of small pieces of diamond called seeds. And from there, 0:02:54.570 --> 0:02:58.100 it attaches to the diamond crystal and continues to follow 0:02:58.110 --> 0:02:58.839 that pattern. 0:02:59.100 --> 0:03:01.880 And after about a month's time, that piece of crystal 0:03:01.889 --> 0:03:04.770 has now grown to almost a large piece of rough diamond. 0:03:04.779 --> 0:03:06.850 They call it that can be core out to the 0:03:06.860 --> 0:03:10.210 size of a seven millimeters to a side, eight millimeters 0:03:10.220 --> 0:03:10.960 to a side. 0:03:11.490 --> 0:03:13.770 And from there it goes through the traditional cutting and 0:03:13.779 --> 0:03:17.589 polishing process and we're left with beautiful gem diamonds. And 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:20.740 that entire four step process takes roughly about four months. 0:03:20.820 --> 0:03:23.698 How much energy are we talking about? So, the diamond 0:03:23.710 --> 0:03:27.380 growing process in a chemical vapor deposition reactor requires roughly 0:03:27.389 --> 0:03:31.020 10 kilowatts of energy. Um perhaps a little bit more, 0:03:31.029 --> 0:03:34.490 we source renewable energy. So although we acknowledge it's a 0:03:34.500 --> 0:03:37.720 significant amount of power, we are sourcing our power responsibly 0:03:37.899 --> 0:03:39.229 and we do this through solar. 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.720 And this gives us the opportunity to use those clean 0:03:42.729 --> 0:03:46.360 electrons to turn something that is warming the planet into 0:03:46.369 --> 0:03:49.110 something that warms the heart. We also have a third 0:03:49.119 --> 0:03:52.479 party certified carbon negative footprint. So that means for every 0:03:52.490 --> 0:03:55.410 diamond we produce, there's less carbon in nature than there 0:03:55.419 --> 0:03:59.110 was before. That's a good thing. And frankly, we have 0:03:59.119 --> 0:04:02.130 strong protocols across the board as a company with respect 0:04:02.139 --> 0:04:05.369 to ESG and it's paramount that everything that we do 0:04:05.380 --> 0:04:07.919 is as responsible as possible. You know, our mission as 0:04:07.929 --> 0:04:08.710 an organization 0:04:08.940 --> 0:04:12.429 is to decarbonise industries that would otherwise be contributing to 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:14.729 global warming and climate change, but doing it in a 0:04:14.740 --> 0:04:17.730 way that benefits not only the planet but people as well. 0:04:17.738 --> 0:04:21.130 So how much co two from air is being extracted for, 0:04:21.140 --> 0:04:23.850 let's say a carat diamond. So the end to end 0:04:23.859 --> 0:04:27.630 process is fairly efficient. There are not a lot of losses. Ultimately, 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:30.970 a diamond is 100% carbon. So you can simply map 0:04:30.980 --> 0:04:31.649 that carbon 0:04:31.736 --> 0:04:34.136 to what is coming out of the atmosphere almost on 0:04:34.147 --> 0:04:36.736 a 1 to 1 basis. If we were growing, say 0:04:36.747 --> 0:04:40.057 a five carat gemstone that comes from a larger piece 0:04:40.065 --> 0:04:43.407 of rough material, you can generally multiply that by about 0:04:43.416 --> 0:04:47.157 five to get your rough material amount. Once it's turned 0:04:47.166 --> 0:04:50.106 into solid carbon, it's never going back into the atmosphere. 0:04:50.356 --> 0:04:54.147 And ultimately, that five carat piece of material comes from 0:04:54.157 --> 0:04:54.446 say a 0:04:54.533 --> 0:04:58.894 total of 25 carats of rough material. And uh that's 0:04:58.903 --> 0:05:02.303 about 5 g of CO2. So in each stone, there's 0:05:02.313 --> 0:05:04.894 not a whole lot of carbon, the net impact when 0:05:04.903 --> 0:05:07.644 you compare this to say the need for mining a 0:05:07.653 --> 0:05:10.074 diamond from the ground or growing a lab grown diamond 0:05:10.084 --> 0:05:14.044 using fossil methane, which is the traditional feedstock. The avoidance 0:05:14.053 --> 0:05:17.243 of the negative externalities associated with those products is 0:05:17.330 --> 0:05:21.281 where the impact comes from. So Ryan, how sustainable are 0:05:21.290 --> 0:05:25.001 lab grown diamonds compared to, you know, naturally created or 0:05:25.010 --> 0:05:28.419 mined diamonds? So when we mine a diamond from the ground, 0:05:28.501 --> 0:05:30.580 we have to dig very large holes in the ground. 0:05:30.591 --> 0:05:32.471 Some of these can be as wide as half a 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:36.640 mile visible from space and those mining sites are never 0:05:36.651 --> 0:05:40.039 really remediated. It's not like they're back filling the mine and, 0:05:40.250 --> 0:05:42.428 and all of the tailings that are dredged up from 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.308 deep inside the earth, they're left on the surface where 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:48.119 rain falls on them and ultimately heavy metals and other 0:05:48.130 --> 0:05:51.269 contaminants that are in those tailings do leach into the groundwater. 0:05:51.779 --> 0:05:54.849 There obviously is a well documented history of human rights 0:05:54.859 --> 0:05:57.440 abuses associated with the production of mine diamonds 0:05:57.709 --> 0:06:01.178 on the converse. You have lab grown diamonds which avoid 0:06:01.190 --> 0:06:04.730 some of those challenges, especially from an environmental perspective. We 0:06:04.738 --> 0:06:06.140 don't have to dig the big hole in the ground. 0:06:06.149 --> 0:06:08.500 We don't have to deal with, you know, mine tailings 0:06:08.510 --> 0:06:12.950 leaching really bad materials into water that either the local 0:06:12.959 --> 0:06:16.010 flora and fauna rely on or you know, perhaps even 0:06:16.019 --> 0:06:16.579 human beings. 0:06:17.149 --> 0:06:19.910 The kind of sin of omission that occurs in lab 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.600 grown diamonds is people often don't think about where the 0:06:22.609 --> 0:06:25.429 carbon comes from. So although we're growing diamonds above ground, 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:27.570 the carbon used to make them still comes from inside 0:06:27.579 --> 0:06:30.799 the ground. So largely the industry has just swapped one 0:06:30.809 --> 0:06:34.890 harmful extractive process for another harmful extractive process. So Ryan, 0:06:34.899 --> 0:06:37.700 let's address a common question that many people are asking 0:06:37.709 --> 0:06:40.170 are lab grown diamonds, real diamonds. 0:06:40.410 --> 0:06:41.989 So at the end of the day, a lab grown 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:45.420 diamond is 100% crystal and carbon. It's at an atomic 0:06:45.428 --> 0:06:48.100 level identical to what comes out of the ground. This 0:06:48.109 --> 0:06:50.428 is not a cubic Circon, this is not a moisten, 0:06:50.670 --> 0:06:53.690 this is in fact a diamond in every conceivable way. 0:06:53.700 --> 0:06:56.459 Even in the United States, the Federal trade Commission has 0:06:56.470 --> 0:06:59.089 changed the rules for what needs to be said as 0:06:59.100 --> 0:07:01.829 we talk about manmade diamonds. These do not even need 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:03.700 to be called synthetic anymore. Whereas 0:07:03.826 --> 0:07:07.065 the word synthetic was a requirement that rule changed just 0:07:07.076 --> 0:07:10.177 a couple of years ago and we see a general 0:07:10.187 --> 0:07:12.807 acceptance here in the US market and there was a 0:07:12.816 --> 0:07:15.756 recent report that upwards of about a third of engagement 0:07:15.766 --> 0:07:19.756 rings sold in 2022 utilized lab grown diamonds, centers stones. 0:07:19.877 --> 0:07:22.756 When we started this company in 2018, that number was 0:07:22.766 --> 0:07:25.877 less than 1%. So the rate at which consumers are 0:07:25.886 --> 0:07:27.177 adopting lab grown diamonds 0:07:27.384 --> 0:07:31.834 is increasing year over year, what has changed so largely education, 0:07:31.843 --> 0:07:34.523 you know, consumers in the beginning didn't quite know what 0:07:34.533 --> 0:07:37.414 they were dealing with. There was a large education hurdle 0:07:37.424 --> 0:07:40.313 that kind of needed to be crossed. And consumers largely 0:07:40.324 --> 0:07:42.634 understand now that these are man made and they come 0:07:42.644 --> 0:07:45.903 from a laboratory. But they are, in fact, diamonds quality 0:07:45.914 --> 0:07:49.394 lab grown diamonds are indistinguishable by eye. Even the world's 0:07:49.403 --> 0:07:50.384 best gemologist 0:07:50.661 --> 0:07:53.270 can't tell that a high color, high clarity lab grown 0:07:53.281 --> 0:07:57.221 diamond is not a natural stone. It requires expensive equipment 0:07:57.230 --> 0:07:59.790 in order to perform the test. You know, early on 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:04.390 many retailers anticipated that people would simply spend less money 0:08:04.401 --> 0:08:06.990 and get the same stone that they would have gotten otherwise. 0:08:07.001 --> 0:08:09.670 And in fact, the opposite is happening. We're seeing consumers 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:11.990 continuing to spend the same amount of money, but to 0:08:12.001 --> 0:08:14.010 go to lab grown and get a bigger diamond. 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:17.410 So they're getting a bigger diamond from a better, you know, frankly, 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:21.720 more human friendly and more environmentally friendly supply chain without 0:08:21.730 --> 0:08:25.029 some of those, you know, human rights concerns and environmental concerns. 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.350 And at the end of the day, it's indistinguishable. 0:08:34.659 --> 0:08:37.130 Hello, my name is Steve Lai and I'm Theresa Tang 0:08:37.140 --> 0:08:40.340 and we are the hosts of CNN correspondent, a podcast 0:08:40.349 --> 0:08:42.460 that takes you to the heart of the work our 0:08:42.469 --> 0:08:46.599 correspondents do across the globe from China's COVID response to 0:08:46.609 --> 0:08:49.909 the Child Care Center massacre in Thailand from the fall 0:08:49.919 --> 0:08:50.030 of 0:08:50.635 --> 0:08:54.405 to the rise of Anwar Ibrahim as Malaysia's Prime Minister, 0:08:54.414 --> 0:08:57.824 we speak to the people at the reporting front lines. 0:08:57.835 --> 0:09:00.325 So if you want to know how the biggest global 0:09:00.335 --> 0:09:03.825 stories unfold, make sure you follow or subscribe to us 0:09:03.835 --> 0:09:05.684 wherever you get your podcasts, 0:09:13.469 --> 0:09:17.449 there's going to be fewer and fewer diamonds available because 0:09:17.460 --> 0:09:21.559 we've already exhausted what half of the world's diamond supply. 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.479 So will natural diamonds continue to hold monetary value better 0:09:25.489 --> 0:09:27.640 than lab grown diamonds? What are your thoughts? So the 0:09:27.650 --> 0:09:29.500 price differential between a lab grown diamond, 0:09:29.585 --> 0:09:31.854 a mine diamond varies greatly depending on who you buy 0:09:31.864 --> 0:09:35.075 it from. Generally speaking, you're going to see a lab 0:09:35.085 --> 0:09:38.395 grown diamond sell for maybe about 30% the cost of 0:09:38.405 --> 0:09:41.835 its mind counterpart. So for the same color, same carrot weight, 0:09:41.844 --> 0:09:44.804 same clarity, you're getting a lot better value for what 0:09:44.815 --> 0:09:45.544 you're spending. 0:09:45.859 --> 0:09:49.609 Peak diamond output happened in 2017. Every year from here 0:09:49.619 --> 0:09:52.090 on out, fewer and fewer stones will be pulled from 0:09:52.099 --> 0:09:53.789 the ground. And I think that's a net positive for 0:09:53.799 --> 0:09:58.030 humanity and for planet earth. But with that reduction in supply, 0:09:58.039 --> 0:10:00.589 the laws of supply and demand dictate that maybe that 0:10:00.599 --> 0:10:04.020 actually helps support pricing. With that said, the rate of 0:10:04.030 --> 0:10:06.348 acceleration of lab grown diamonds is starting to eat into 0:10:06.359 --> 0:10:07.919 the market share of mine diamonds in a way that 0:10:07.929 --> 0:10:10.429 I don't think a lot of people anticipated. And this 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:13.309 is not driven purely by the fact that it's a 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:14.890 better value by 0:10:15.265 --> 0:10:17.415 getting a larger stone for the budget, but also driven 0:10:17.426 --> 0:10:20.555 by environmental concerns. These are things that we've learned, speaking 0:10:20.565 --> 0:10:23.505 to consumers and ultimately, we feel that that is going 0:10:23.515 --> 0:10:27.875 to accelerate beyond the rate of decline of mine diamonds. 0:10:27.885 --> 0:10:31.156 I think younger consumers by and large understand that they 0:10:31.166 --> 0:10:35.445 don't need to support these archaic extraction practices anymore. That's 0:10:35.455 --> 0:10:38.434 very interesting. How about, you know, when we say diamonds 0:10:38.445 --> 0:10:41.795 for the longest time, the aspect on scarcity also the 0:10:41.806 --> 0:10:44.574 rarity made people to desire or cray for the, 0:10:44.671 --> 0:10:46.780 what would you say to those that, you know, the 0:10:46.791 --> 0:10:50.780 sense of romanticism shall I say is sort of removed 0:10:50.791 --> 0:10:52.562 in the lab or devoid in the lab? I think 0:10:52.572 --> 0:10:55.341 that's a fair criticism of lab run diamonds. Frankly, it's 0:10:55.351 --> 0:10:59.111 a criticism I've made myself on numerous occasions. I don't 0:10:59.122 --> 0:11:00.981 think that it maps to what we do and I 0:11:00.992 --> 0:11:03.931 think that's where we have some competitive advantage in the market. 0:11:03.942 --> 0:11:06.971 You know, there's no geographic limitation to where we can 0:11:06.981 --> 0:11:10.262 pull our carbon from. There's nothing stopping me from extracting 0:11:10.271 --> 0:11:14.021 co two from the air in Paris and introducing Parisian diamonds. 0:11:14.289 --> 0:11:17.900 You know, mapping this to your personal love story as 0:11:17.909 --> 0:11:20.710 a consumer plays into kind of this trend of hyper 0:11:20.719 --> 0:11:24.429 personalization that we're seeing across a number of consumer markets 0:11:24.940 --> 0:11:27.409 and from their major markets around the world. There are 0:11:27.419 --> 0:11:29.789 areas where we'll be looking to capture CO2 that we 0:11:29.799 --> 0:11:32.069 can use to produce regional diamonds. You know, we don't 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.299 have to go where these diamond deposits underground exist. We're 0:11:35.309 --> 0:11:38.619 not limited to parts of Africa or Russia or Canada, 0:11:38.630 --> 0:11:41.929 we can do this globally. And that really brings an 0:11:41.940 --> 0:11:42.679 interesting 0:11:42.900 --> 0:11:46.309 marketing and merchandizing opportunity into the fray that we think 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.210 people in markets all over the world will appreciate. So, 0:11:49.219 --> 0:11:52.179 what's Ether's goal within the next 5 to 10 years? 0:11:52.190 --> 0:11:54.150 How do you plan to achieve it? So our goal 0:11:54.159 --> 0:11:58.909 goes far beyond diamonds, diamonds, we consider merely our first act. Ultimately, 0:11:58.919 --> 0:11:59.289 if you think 0:11:59.390 --> 0:12:04.650 what we're doing, we're turning air pollution into an upcycled hydrocarbon. 0:12:05.109 --> 0:12:07.299 So we envision a future where we don't need to 0:12:07.309 --> 0:12:10.979 extract hydrocarbons from the ground. Rather, we can develop an 0:12:10.989 --> 0:12:15.630 extractive industry around pollution and turning pollution into climate solutions. 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:15.799 And 0:12:16.049 --> 0:12:18.940 our goal would be to bring our atmospheric methane to 0:12:18.950 --> 0:12:21.869 a wide range of different industries that utilize methane gas 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:25.030 as a chemical feedstock as an ingredient, methane can be 0:12:25.039 --> 0:12:27.270 used to make quite a lot of things. So our 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.770 goal is to proliferate the technology across a number of 0:12:29.780 --> 0:12:33.630 different industry, verticals and different sectors and different geographies and 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:37.750 ultimately decarbonise the world's industries by getting rid of fossil fuels. 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.979 There are those who are quite skeptical about this sequestration, 0:12:40.989 --> 0:12:43.700 removing carbon from the air. What would you say to them? 0:12:43.969 --> 0:12:48.450 There are fair criticisms. Carbon capture technologies, especially direct air capture, 0:12:48.460 --> 0:12:54.020 ambient capture of CO2 is relatively expensive, comparable to other 0:12:54.030 --> 0:12:57.900 climate solutions. And for me, this was the big aha 0:12:57.909 --> 0:13:00.459 moment you can take that carbon and bury it under 0:13:00.469 --> 0:13:03.419 the ground where hopefully it stays for a very long time. 0:13:03.809 --> 0:13:07.439 But then you're losing half the opportunity. Ultimately, if we know, 0:13:07.450 --> 0:13:09.849 products are made with methane and we know we can 0:13:09.859 --> 0:13:13.439 make methane with captured CO2 to not do that is 0:13:13.450 --> 0:13:18.239 tacitly supporting the further continued extraction of hydrocarbons from the ground. 0:13:18.710 --> 0:13:20.809 So if we have this usable material and we fail 0:13:20.820 --> 0:13:23.890 to utilize it, we're making a grave mistake. And that's 0:13:23.900 --> 0:13:26.200 really where we come in. And because diamonds as a 0:13:26.210 --> 0:13:29.500 product have favorable unit economics, it allows us to be 0:13:29.510 --> 0:13:32.488 somewhat cost insensitive to the upfront cost of the direct 0:13:32.500 --> 0:13:35.640 air capture. In the beginning when we were sourcing CO2. 0:13:35.650 --> 0:13:36.140 From our first, 0:13:36.465 --> 0:13:40.674 we were spending over $10,000 per ton of CO2. That's 0:13:40.684 --> 0:13:43.084 a lot. If you compare that to the cost of 0:13:43.094 --> 0:13:45.265 pulling one ton out of the air through, you know, 0:13:45.275 --> 0:13:49.584 planting trees, it pales in comparison, but that was ok 0:13:49.594 --> 0:13:52.085 for us because with one ton of CO2, we can 0:13:52.094 --> 0:13:54.994 make many, many diamonds and then you can take that 0:13:55.005 --> 0:13:57.103 10,000 plus dollar sum of money 0:13:57.289 --> 0:13:59.679 and advertise it across all of those stones and the 0:13:59.690 --> 0:14:03.400 per carat contribution was less than $10. So even if 0:14:03.409 --> 0:14:06.000 the cost of direct air capture went to zero, it 0:14:06.010 --> 0:14:09.559 really wouldn't fundamentally change our unit economics. And that made 0:14:09.570 --> 0:14:13.449 us especially early on relatively cost insensitive. And those are 0:14:13.460 --> 0:14:16.510 characteristics that you need to see when new technologies are 0:14:16.530 --> 0:14:19.820 being developed. You want to see cost curves come down, 0:14:19.830 --> 0:14:21.940 you want to be able to see those technologies mature 0:14:21.950 --> 0:14:23.000 and we believe that 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.299 we could play a role in helping bring those cost 0:14:25.309 --> 0:14:28.349 curves down starting in diamonds and ultimately across a number 0:14:28.359 --> 0:14:31.669 of industries, Brian. Before I let you go, just looking ahead, 0:14:31.679 --> 0:14:34.210 what do you think the future will hold for lab 0:14:34.219 --> 0:14:36.859 grown diamonds? And what do you think will matter when 0:14:36.869 --> 0:14:39.109 it comes to diamonds in the future? One of the 0:14:39.119 --> 0:14:41.820 things I'm quite excited about is we are probably a 0:14:41.830 --> 0:14:45.179 year or two away from seeing lab grown diamonds make 0:14:45.190 --> 0:14:48.030 up the majority of engagement rings sold here in the 0:14:48.039 --> 0:14:48.789 US market. 0:14:49.030 --> 0:14:52.760 This is no longer, you know, some small esoteric piece 0:14:52.770 --> 0:14:54.590 of the industry. It's going to be the majority and 0:14:54.599 --> 0:14:57.270 that's going to happen soon. And frankly, if you look 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:01.309 at consumer trends over indexing for sustainability for the supply 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:03.869 chain transparency, those are things that matter to an increasing 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:07.159 number of consumers. So we're starting to see that ball 0:15:07.169 --> 0:15:08.799 rolling in the European market, 0:15:09.469 --> 0:15:12.640 whispers of an increasing willingness to buy lab grown in 0:15:12.650 --> 0:15:15.039 parts of Asia as well. So we're very excited to 0:15:15.049 --> 0:15:17.940 continue to see the market mature for lab grown diamonds 0:15:17.950 --> 0:15:20.239 and see consumers the world over start to accept them 0:15:20.289 --> 0:15:23.159 exciting times ahead, Ryan. Best of luck to you. Thank 0:15:23.169 --> 0:15:25.049 you so much for joining us today and shedding light 0:15:25.059 --> 0:15:28.559 on this fascinating world of lab grown diamonds. Thanks so much. Well, 0:15:28.570 --> 0:15:29.570 thanks to my guest 0:15:29.750 --> 0:15:32.760 Brian Sherman and thanks to all of you for tuning in. 0:15:32.950 --> 0:15:36.349 We hope you enjoyed this episode. Do remember to subscribe 0:15:36.359 --> 0:15:38.789 and like this podcast. So, you know, when the new 0:15:38.799 --> 0:15:42.289 episode drops, we, we will be going on a season break. 0:15:42.299 --> 0:15:44.690 We'll be back in August. But in the meantime, you 0:15:44.700 --> 0:15:48.590 can find the CNAs climate and sustainability coverage online at 0:15:48.599 --> 0:15:52.460 CN A dot asia. The team behind this podcast is 0:15:52.469 --> 0:15:57.320 Joan Chen, Jacqueline Chan and Christina Robert and I'm Julie 0:15:57.330 --> 0:15:58.559 Yu signing off.