WEBVTT - Must climate communication be so dense? 0:00:03.299 --> 0:00:05.599 You're listening to AC N A podcast 0:00:09.210 --> 0:00:12.569 when it comes to climate change. A simple lesson is 0:00:12.579 --> 0:00:16.989 to follow the science, listen to the experts read the reports, 0:00:17.459 --> 0:00:20.790 but that can be harder than it sounds. Never has 0:00:20.799 --> 0:00:25.959 explaining climate change, its impacts and implications been more important. 0:00:26.209 --> 0:00:28.950 And now experts are starting to get on board with 0:00:28.959 --> 0:00:32.950 the idea that no amount of well researched data can 0:00:32.959 --> 0:00:36.659 make up for a lack of understanding. Today. We're learning 0:00:36.668 --> 0:00:38.990 how to keep it simple. Stupid. 0:00:42.909 --> 0:00:46.490 Hi and welcome to Climate conversations. I'm Jack Ford and 0:00:46.500 --> 0:00:49.689 hello to Li Ling Tan. Hi there, Jack. Funny. You 0:00:49.700 --> 0:00:52.020 brought up that kiss rule which of course stands for. 0:00:52.029 --> 0:00:55.470 Keep it simple stupid. It's actually the first lesson I 0:00:55.479 --> 0:00:58.200 learned in journalism school back in the day. But you 0:00:58.209 --> 0:01:02.799 and I know that it's definitely easier said than done, right? Yeah, 0:01:02.810 --> 0:01:05.098 that's the key to the job. A lot of the time. 0:01:05.915 --> 0:01:08.434 I bet you've come across more than your fair share 0:01:08.444 --> 0:01:12.334 of climate jargon over the years. Are you fluent in 0:01:12.345 --> 0:01:15.995 that yet? I wish I'm hardly fluent. Not only is 0:01:16.105 --> 0:01:19.754 the language convoluted. It's really an assault on clarity. Jack 0:01:19.824 --> 0:01:23.235 and there are usually no glossaries or terms and concepts. 0:01:23.245 --> 0:01:26.554 You have to look at reports just to understand reports 0:01:26.565 --> 0:01:28.925 and it is mental. 0:01:29.290 --> 0:01:32.430 So I complained about it to two leading climate experts, 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:36.179 Professor Winston Chao and associate professor Terry Van Kelt from 0:01:36.190 --> 0:01:40.050 Singapore Management University. I'm sure you're familiar with them. And 0:01:40.059 --> 0:01:44.750 I told them, I said the language is like Klingon 0:01:44.919 --> 0:01:48.150 from Star Trek. I got a bit of pushback from that. 0:01:48.199 --> 0:01:51.940 Have a listen. No, it's not Klingon. This is why, 0:01:51.989 --> 0:01:52.129 you know Klingon. 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:56.870 Uh I prefer the other. It's more Vulcan than Klingon. 0:01:57.849 --> 0:02:01.330 I disagree that it's Klingon. It's us being more Vulcan 0:02:01.349 --> 0:02:03.730 like so when we do the live long and prosper, 0:02:03.879 --> 0:02:07.139 he's showing me the sign, show you the Vulcan sign. 0:02:07.150 --> 0:02:09.529 You can. No, that's the wrong one. I can, I can't, 0:02:09.929 --> 0:02:11.970 you can, you can. So this tells you how much 0:02:11.979 --> 0:02:13.288 of a truckie I was dear. 0:02:15.460 --> 0:02:18.740 It doesn't get dorkier than that. And we'll have more 0:02:18.750 --> 0:02:23.418 from my climate conversations with them later in the podcast, Jack. 0:02:23.429 --> 0:02:26.698 What's giving you awake these days? I've just arrived back 0:02:26.710 --> 0:02:29.600 in Bangkok. I've been in the Pacific for a couple 0:02:29.610 --> 0:02:33.130 of weeks doing stories about sea level rise and impacts 0:02:33.139 --> 0:02:36.160 on culture and community in some of the most isolated 0:02:36.169 --> 0:02:39.960 countries in the world. And then I was kind of 0:02:39.970 --> 0:02:42.880 just observing the news. I had a friend who was 0:02:42.889 --> 0:02:43.919 stuck in Dubai 0:02:44.270 --> 0:02:47.089 who I met at the airport and he was telling 0:02:47.100 --> 0:02:50.270 me about just how crazy. The situation was with the 0:02:50.279 --> 0:02:52.389 flooding that we've seen in the Middle East in Dubai, 0:02:52.399 --> 0:02:56.410 in Oman, parts of Afghanistan as well in one day, 0:02:56.419 --> 0:03:01.008 250 millimeters of rainfall. That's 10 inches 0:03:01.399 --> 0:03:04.910 for our older listeners and my parents always speak in inches, 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.149 not millimeters when it comes to rainfall and that was 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:12.830 double the country's average annual rainfall in one day. Insane. Yeah. 0:03:12.839 --> 0:03:16.869 So let's turn that little factoid into our quiz of 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:18.899 the week, Le Ling. This is a challenge for you 0:03:18.910 --> 0:03:19.710 and everyone listening. 0:03:20.250 --> 0:03:23.690 I want you to compare that 250 millimeters of rainfall 0:03:23.699 --> 0:03:28.470 in Dubai to Singapore's wettest ever day. Do you think 0:03:28.479 --> 0:03:32.139 that Singapore has ever had more or less rain on 0:03:32.149 --> 0:03:37.520 that day versus Dubai's historic flood answer at the end? Ok. 0:03:39.729 --> 0:03:43.139 Alright. Let's go to the newsroom and look at some 0:03:43.149 --> 0:03:47.710 of the most interesting stories in the sustainability space this week, 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:49.669 Li Ling. What has caught your attention? 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:54.889 More doom and gloom? I'm afraid Jack, a new United 0:03:54.899 --> 0:03:59.940 Nations report says Asia suffered the most disasters from climate 0:03:59.949 --> 0:04:03.750 and weather hazards last year and floods and storms were 0:04:03.759 --> 0:04:07.130 the main culprits. Now, the report also found that Asia 0:04:07.139 --> 0:04:11.610 was warming faster than the global average with the impact 0:04:11.619 --> 0:04:14.970 of heat waves in the region becoming more severe. 0:04:15.259 --> 0:04:18.719 The thing is it came just as another heat wave 0:04:18.730 --> 0:04:22.100 was hammering countries here in South and Southeast Asia schools 0:04:22.109 --> 0:04:24.980 in the Philippines and Bangladesh was suspended and and I 0:04:24.988 --> 0:04:28.010 think where you are, Thailand it's near to 40 degrees 0:04:28.019 --> 0:04:32.040 or even top 40 °C, not to hop on the weather. 0:04:32.049 --> 0:04:35.899 But here we are again, Jack, it just won't let up. Yeah, 0:04:35.910 --> 0:04:39.279 I don't think that report would really surprise anyone and 0:04:39.290 --> 0:04:42.399 landing back in Bangkok and feeling the heat out there today. 0:04:42.410 --> 0:04:43.839 It is extreme. 0:04:44.130 --> 0:04:48.070 So I'll be feeling the temperature from inside today better 0:04:48.079 --> 0:04:51.350 inside than outside. Now, the other news that's kind of 0:04:51.359 --> 0:04:53.709 a big deal is the one that you wrote about 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:57.409 Thailand's plan to roll back laws around fishing. And it 0:04:57.420 --> 0:05:01.010 could be quite a significant reduction in penalties for activities 0:05:01.019 --> 0:05:03.988 like illegal fishing. We're talking about 0:05:04.192 --> 0:05:07.933 leniency around laws over the use of destructive trawler nets 0:05:07.952 --> 0:05:13.541 and also relaxing regulation related to catching protected species but 0:05:13.553 --> 0:05:16.251 also less protection for workers. This sounds like a major 0:05:16.263 --> 0:05:19.032 step back for the industry. No. Well, it's a kind 0:05:19.041 --> 0:05:21.632 of a surprising story that I think most people here 0:05:21.642 --> 0:05:24.173 weren't aware of that. Thailand was really proposed, 0:05:24.255 --> 0:05:29.795 these very sweeping changes to the laws that were enforced 0:05:29.805 --> 0:05:33.675 back in 2014 under the military government because of the 0:05:33.686 --> 0:05:39.195 concerns about the lax standards that existed and the really 0:05:39.205 --> 0:05:42.835 dangerous conditions that existed for migrant workers, mostly working in 0:05:42.846 --> 0:05:46.476 the fisheries industry. And now there's this big push from 0:05:46.485 --> 0:05:49.815 commercial fishers saying they want to repeal all of those 0:05:49.825 --> 0:05:51.615 laws really winded back. 0:05:51.910 --> 0:05:56.500 And activists and environmental groups are particularly concerned. So are 0:05:56.510 --> 0:05:59.969 the export markets in the eu potentially in the United States, 0:05:59.980 --> 0:06:03.459 Australia as well. And obviously, the small scale Fishers want 0:06:03.470 --> 0:06:06.290 to keep the current laws, the larger players say now 0:06:06.299 --> 0:06:10.010 it's impossible to do business and that they're no longer profitable. 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:12.649 So I had an interview with Dominic Thompson from the 0:06:12.660 --> 0:06:16.529 Environmental Justice Foundation who's done a lot of interesting analysis 0:06:16.769 --> 0:06:19.660 about what these potential law changes might mean. 0:06:19.950 --> 0:06:22.250 But I think if you probe them and you look 0:06:22.260 --> 0:06:25.489 at these in the concept of what the implications are 0:06:25.500 --> 0:06:29.420 for the environment, for human rights and for the economic 0:06:29.428 --> 0:06:33.178 trade as well and international standing. It's basically taking away 0:06:33.190 --> 0:06:36.179 everything that's been done over the last eight years and 0:06:36.190 --> 0:06:40.578 taking the industry back almost decades in terms of its development. 0:06:40.959 --> 0:06:45.149 And so it really does do Thailand a disservice when 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:48.079 Thailand has done such an amazing job over the last 0:06:48.089 --> 0:06:52.459 eight years of building this international credibility as almost this 0:06:52.470 --> 0:06:56.410 regional if not international leader in terms of fisheries management 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.820 and human right? For within the fishing, it really does 0:06:59.829 --> 0:07:03.220 beg that question mark that lingers over this entire issue 0:07:03.230 --> 0:07:06.019 of why is Thailand doing this at this point? 0:07:06.488 --> 0:07:11.179 So political negotiations are underway on how the law might 0:07:11.190 --> 0:07:13.670 change in the future, we're expecting it could take up 0:07:13.679 --> 0:07:16.019 to a year actually for this to happen. But it 0:07:16.029 --> 0:07:19.230 seems like there is a growing political consensus that they 0:07:19.239 --> 0:07:23.709 will pass. So very interesting times for the seafood industry 0:07:24.070 --> 0:07:25.589 in Southeast Asia, for sure. 0:07:30.660 --> 0:07:33.019 All right. Let's get to our main story for this week, 0:07:33.029 --> 0:07:35.950 Li Ling. Take it away as the climate news editor 0:07:35.959 --> 0:07:38.410 at CN A Singapore desk. One of the toughest part 0:07:38.420 --> 0:07:41.500 of my job is to decipher all the complicated language 0:07:41.510 --> 0:07:44.200 and climate reports and then deliver the information in a 0:07:44.209 --> 0:07:48.029 way that normal human beings actually understand people who don't 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.279 belong in the climate circuit. Case in point, 0:07:51.910 --> 0:07:56.390 the Intergovernmental Panel on climate change or IPCC itself a 0:07:56.399 --> 0:07:59.329 mouthful of a name for what's basically a UN group 0:07:59.339 --> 0:08:02.779 made up of super top level climate science experts. It's 0:08:02.790 --> 0:08:06.220 behind this super important update every few years on the 0:08:06.230 --> 0:08:08.869 state of the planet and how we're ruining it. 0:08:09.075 --> 0:08:12.174 What needs to be done. It's critical stuff, but the 0:08:12.184 --> 0:08:15.315 report can go on and on for 42 pages and 0:08:15.325 --> 0:08:19.815 it reads like this in addition to robust multidecadal warming, 0:08:19.825 --> 0:08:24.924 the globally averaged surface temperature exhibits substantial decade and inter 0:08:25.045 --> 0:08:26.214 annual variability. 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:29.679 I don't even know what that means, but we have 0:08:29.690 --> 0:08:32.630 sitting in the room with us two people who may 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:37.488 or may not be guilty of such crimes against clear communication. Hello, 0:08:37.500 --> 0:08:41.090 Professor Winston Chow and Professor Terry Van Geld. Now, one 0:08:41.099 --> 0:08:45.579 of these two gentlemen actually sits on that IPCC panel. 0:08:45.590 --> 0:08:50.260 He is Singapore's most prominent climate scientist, Winston Winston Chao 0:08:50.330 --> 0:08:53.099 and his title at the UN panel is 0:08:53.989 --> 0:08:57.049 co-chair for working group two of the IPCC seventh Assessment 0:08:57.059 --> 0:09:01.979 Report Cycle Bureau. Yes, it's a mouthful. I apologize for that. 0:09:02.159 --> 0:09:04.840 And you are also Professor of Urban Climate and Lee 0:09:04.849 --> 0:09:08.940 Kong Xian research Fellow at Singapore Management University's College of 0:09:08.950 --> 0:09:12.500 Integrative Studies. That's also quite mouthful. Yes, it is. And 0:09:12.510 --> 0:09:13.380 of course, next to you, 0:09:13.570 --> 0:09:16.829 this is Terry Van G Velt. You are Associate professor 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.969 of urban sustainability and also Lee Kun Qian fellow at 0:09:19.979 --> 0:09:22.900 SM US College of integrative Studies. So both of you 0:09:22.909 --> 0:09:27.228 are colleagues now, Terry, you are also an interdisciplinary social 0:09:27.239 --> 0:09:32.098 scientist focused on bridging the sustainability science policy divide and 0:09:32.109 --> 0:09:33.209 we'll get into that in a bit. 0:09:33.659 --> 0:09:37.119 Both gentlemen are here for this podcast as part of 0:09:37.130 --> 0:09:41.330 the inaugural Ideas Festival. It is to highlight how important 0:09:41.340 --> 0:09:44.799 the social sciences are in solving the world's toughest problems. 0:09:44.809 --> 0:09:51.000 All the details are at www dot ideas festival.edu dot SG. 0:09:51.010 --> 0:09:51.400 All right. 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.689 All the name cards on the table now. But are 0:09:54.700 --> 0:09:58.979 you scientists or social scientists? Professor Winston, you go first. 0:09:59.229 --> 0:10:01.739 I guess it depends on what time of the day 0:10:01.750 --> 0:10:04.819 or depending on who I meet in which I decide 0:10:04.830 --> 0:10:08.380 whether I'm a scientist or social scientist. So that in 0:10:08.390 --> 0:10:12.179 one sense, speaks to the heart of communication. We used 0:10:12.190 --> 0:10:15.369 to struggle with a lot with the IPCC reports. 0:10:15.609 --> 0:10:18.770 What you just mentioned in the introduction actually is supposed 0:10:18.780 --> 0:10:22.380 to be the executive summary of the report 40 over 0:10:22.390 --> 0:10:26.478 pages long filled with headline statements, key messages which are 0:10:26.650 --> 0:10:30.260 full of jargon. How many pages is the actual report very, 0:10:30.270 --> 0:10:33.858 very long we measure in terms of kilograms and it 0:10:33.869 --> 0:10:38.750 weighed I think about 29 kg. Oh my goodness. Yes. 0:10:39.109 --> 0:10:42.869 So in this cycle, my co-chair colleagues and I we 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:47.690 are resolutely determined to try and reduce that weight substantially. 0:10:47.700 --> 0:10:51.080 But then again, it is reflective of the vast amount 0:10:51.090 --> 0:10:53.320 of very detailed scientific 0:10:53.630 --> 0:10:56.859 and social scientific research into climate change that has developed 0:10:56.869 --> 0:10:59.400 over the past seven years. So the challenge is trying 0:10:59.409 --> 0:11:02.900 to find that sweet spot between distilling the important messages, 0:11:02.909 --> 0:11:06.570 conveying it in a clear way, but yet also maintaining 0:11:06.580 --> 0:11:09.218 that level of comprehensive assessment 0:11:09.539 --> 0:11:12.539 that will bust sort of insights into climate science or 0:11:12.549 --> 0:11:16.039 climate research that the I PC C's audience demands. What 0:11:16.049 --> 0:11:19.859 about you, Terry? Unlike Winston, I'm not a trained scientist. 0:11:19.869 --> 0:11:22.619 So my background is in economics and then kind of 0:11:22.630 --> 0:11:25.440 different types of social sciences. A lot of it is 0:11:25.450 --> 0:11:27.039 very quantitative with numbers though. 0:11:27.469 --> 0:11:29.978 So I also have to grapple with this report and 0:11:29.989 --> 0:11:32.530 I never go into the the technical side of things. 0:11:32.539 --> 0:11:35.710 It's always that executive summary that I look at. So 0:11:35.719 --> 0:11:38.890 to the extent that I engage with the scientific literature, 0:11:38.900 --> 0:11:41.260 it's to understand what I need to understand, to be 0:11:41.270 --> 0:11:43.179 able to work out the impacts. So in that sense, 0:11:43.190 --> 0:11:46.809 I'm much more like the normal person than Winston. I 0:11:46.820 --> 0:11:47.709 think the implication 0:11:47.969 --> 0:11:52.179 is that I may be special in that sense, not normal, abnormal, well, 0:11:52.260 --> 0:11:55.289 not really. I mean, Winston, you're practically a household name 0:11:55.299 --> 0:11:58.219 in the climate crowd, right in a room full of 0:11:58.229 --> 0:12:01.400 non experts though. What's the biggest challenge in getting the 0:12:01.409 --> 0:12:04.419 message across about climate change in the environment? How do 0:12:04.429 --> 0:12:06.949 you read the room and adjust? There are a few challenges. 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:09.640 One is reading the room. If you know who your 0:12:09.650 --> 0:12:12.789 audience is, it helps a lot in tailoring the specific 0:12:12.799 --> 0:12:14.140 message that's required. 0:12:14.580 --> 0:12:18.580 If you know what drives the individual, you can then 0:12:18.590 --> 0:12:22.320 see what's the best message. You can have to either 0:12:22.330 --> 0:12:25.159 persuade them to change their minds or to get an 0:12:25.169 --> 0:12:27.979 understanding as to what drives you, what is the biggest 0:12:27.989 --> 0:12:31.710 concern about climate change. And then see if that particular 0:12:31.719 --> 0:12:35.520 interest can either be reflected in that report or if 0:12:35.530 --> 0:12:38.059 you know some nuggets of information, you can tell them 0:12:38.070 --> 0:12:40.179 to help, get them to change their frame of thinking 0:12:40.549 --> 0:12:42.939 in terms of climate change. They don't want to be 0:12:42.950 --> 0:12:45.049 told that they are stupid. They don't want to be 0:12:45.059 --> 0:12:47.989 told by some lab coat in an ivory tower that 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:51.559 climate change is happening and this is going to be bad, etcetera, etcetera. 0:12:51.890 --> 0:12:55.700 It could be downscaled using the scientific jargon 0:12:55.969 --> 0:13:00.130 into something very relevant for that person. So this person 0:13:00.140 --> 0:13:03.309 might be worried about, let's say they are going to 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.619 lose out in terms of the green transition. They are 0:13:06.630 --> 0:13:08.819 in a line of employment that will go the way 0:13:08.830 --> 0:13:12.380 of the dinosaurs as we move from a non-renewable to 0:13:12.390 --> 0:13:16.380 a renewable, you know, circular zero waste economy and hearing 0:13:16.390 --> 0:13:19.869 that message then can be fed back towards the decision 0:13:19.979 --> 0:13:24.630 of what sustainable development is. Hence all these retraining reskilling 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:27.890 initiatives that the Singapore government has put into place can 0:13:27.900 --> 0:13:31.489 help allay these concerns in some manner, shape or form. 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:34.479 But it is important to understand that that is the 0:13:34.489 --> 0:13:37.939 key concern of that person or that constituent. It's all 0:13:37.950 --> 0:13:40.669 about connection, right, connecting with the person you're speaking to, 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.880 especially since the subject matter is so heavy, so vast 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.909 and and often alienates a lot of people on the ground, 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:50.619 which brings me to Terry. Now, a lot of your 0:13:50.630 --> 0:13:54.789 work involves bridging the divide between climate science and policy. 0:13:54.950 --> 0:13:58.369 What does bridging this divide mean? And how do you 0:13:58.380 --> 0:14:01.750 narrow that gap through the way you communicate? So two 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:05.710 questions there bridging the divide. Well, the divide is exactly 0:14:05.719 --> 0:14:08.340 what you read out earlier, that body of text 0:14:09.210 --> 0:14:12.409 and making that into something that we can actually work 0:14:12.419 --> 0:14:15.549 on that we can engage with that will help us 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:18.459 understand what pathways we've got to go forward. And that's 0:14:18.469 --> 0:14:22.359 a complex process because the general trends are almost undisputed, 0:14:22.719 --> 0:14:26.750 but the variations of impacts the different scenarios, the risk 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:28.179 profiles that is uncertain. 0:14:28.669 --> 0:14:32.090 So what I see as my primary role in this 0:14:32.099 --> 0:14:36.320 space is to try to make the future impacts of 0:14:36.330 --> 0:14:41.809 climate change into tangible scenarios. OK. So if we continue 0:14:41.820 --> 0:14:44.380 down this path with this set of assumptions, then we 0:14:44.390 --> 0:14:47.570 are likely to have this scenario and this scenario will 0:14:47.580 --> 0:14:50.799 mean this for our economy, for people, for infrastructure and 0:14:50.809 --> 0:14:51.369 so forth. 0:14:52.229 --> 0:14:55.590 It's taking that scientific data and turning it into something 0:14:55.599 --> 0:14:59.940 that people can understand and visualize. Yeah. And just going 0:14:59.950 --> 0:15:02.969 back to what Winston said about communicating that I find 0:15:02.979 --> 0:15:06.140 that if you give too much information, if you give 0:15:06.150 --> 0:15:09.659 too much certainty, a lot of people recoil because there 0:15:09.669 --> 0:15:12.549 is a lot of uncertainty inherent in this process. Terry, 0:15:12.559 --> 0:15:15.640 you've lived in Cambridge, you've worked there, you've lived and 0:15:15.650 --> 0:15:17.599 worked in Hong Kong now, Singapore. 0:15:17.869 --> 0:15:20.169 Do you find yourself having to adjust? And how do 0:15:20.179 --> 0:15:23.549 you do that in these different contexts? For sure there's 0:15:23.559 --> 0:15:26.929 differences in culture. But I think the same kind of 0:15:26.940 --> 0:15:29.969 difficulty goes through all of it. Most of what we 0:15:29.979 --> 0:15:33.460 see are very small changes, things like, you know, not 0:15:33.469 --> 0:15:37.210 using plastic straws, right? So that, I mean, that's my 0:15:37.219 --> 0:15:38.609 biggest gripe because 0:15:39.099 --> 0:15:42.729 I think the plastic straw is wonderful, but we basically 0:15:42.739 --> 0:15:46.440 have these small movements in all of these different places 0:15:46.830 --> 0:15:51.440 that have the right intention, but almost have an unintended 0:15:51.450 --> 0:15:54.270 effect of taking us away from the big changes that 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.159 are needed. So in psychology, it's called moral licensing. I 0:15:57.169 --> 0:15:59.289 have done something good. So I don't need to do 0:15:59.299 --> 0:16:01.500 anything else. And we see that a lot with the 0:16:01.510 --> 0:16:03.359 kind of small changes that we make 0:16:03.780 --> 0:16:05.429 and I'm not saying these small changes are bad, they're 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.119 good but we do need to make the big changes. 0:16:08.130 --> 0:16:11.679 And the big changes unfortunately will mean system wide changes, 0:16:11.900 --> 0:16:13.599 a lot of change to the way we live, the 0:16:13.609 --> 0:16:16.500 way we consume, the way we produce. And those are painful. 0:16:16.510 --> 0:16:19.119 So across any kind of culture, any kind of society, 0:16:19.169 --> 0:16:23.010 you have the same fundamental issue. The small changes are 0:16:23.020 --> 0:16:27.289 perhaps good as an educational sort of entry point for 0:16:27.299 --> 0:16:30.369 people to become active, to become agents of change for 0:16:30.380 --> 0:16:31.239 climate change. 0:16:31.570 --> 0:16:35.549 One other concern is that there's also a thinking that 0:16:35.559 --> 0:16:38.619 says that we must rely totally on technology to save 0:16:38.630 --> 0:16:42.020 our skins from climate change. What about when we have 0:16:42.030 --> 0:16:46.109 big solar mirrors in space or we inject sulfates into 0:16:46.119 --> 0:16:50.260 the atmosphere for geo engineering or we just rely on 0:16:50.270 --> 0:16:51.469 more efficient technology 0:16:51.854 --> 0:16:55.294 to save us from carbon emissions. That actually is also 0:16:55.304 --> 0:16:59.645 a trap that I think is preventing the much needed 0:16:59.875 --> 0:17:04.094 systemic changes that cherry and many other scientists say is 0:17:04.104 --> 0:17:06.224 required to give you an example of the kind of 0:17:06.234 --> 0:17:09.194 radical thinking that I think is needed if we had 0:17:09.204 --> 0:17:11.895 to hit the more ambitious targets that we have, you 0:17:11.905 --> 0:17:14.104 look at the car industry. So I love cars. 0:17:14.380 --> 0:17:17.639 I don't want a future without cars, but plainly speaking, 0:17:17.650 --> 0:17:21.688 transitioning to evs doesn't solve our problem, electric vehicles because 0:17:21.699 --> 0:17:24.319 EVs are still resource intensive. If you think about the 0:17:24.329 --> 0:17:26.319 data center needs of these cars as well. 0:17:26.660 --> 0:17:29.510 The real solution is to get rid of that and 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:32.069 to have a different form of transportation as well, that's 0:17:32.079 --> 0:17:34.619 pretty radical. Get rid of evs when we're all get 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.349 rid of all cars. Cars. Yes. But that's the kind 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:39.760 of radical solution I'm saying we need to hit the 0:17:39.770 --> 0:17:43.089 very ambitious targets. But who's going to support that? I 0:17:43.099 --> 0:17:46.359 don't support that. Some sacrifices have to be made. But 0:17:46.369 --> 0:17:49.880 the question is who are making the sacrifices getting rid 0:17:49.890 --> 0:17:52.520 of evs altogether or moving to public 0:17:52.602 --> 0:17:55.791 transport that might work in some countries? It won't work in, 0:17:55.802 --> 0:17:58.651 for instance, less developed countries. It's a very difficult way 0:17:58.661 --> 0:18:01.302 to tell countries that, you know, if we are to 0:18:01.541 --> 0:18:05.342 reach a 1.5 degree sea limit, you pointing to these countries, 0:18:05.352 --> 0:18:09.181 you must also sacrifice or something along those lines. You know, 0:18:09.251 --> 0:18:11.442 at the IPCC, when you are at these meetings, what 0:18:11.452 --> 0:18:13.641 is the dynamic like? Because a lot of what we've 0:18:13.651 --> 0:18:17.841 been talking so far about is communicating to the average person. 0:18:18.011 --> 0:18:18.462 What about 0:18:18.542 --> 0:18:22.023 communicating up? You're face to face with global powers? How 0:18:22.034 --> 0:18:25.874 do you communicate to them? The divide between the crude leader, 0:18:25.884 --> 0:18:29.244 more developed, less developing divide comes into play. All these 0:18:29.254 --> 0:18:32.523 other national or regional interests come into play as well. 0:18:32.534 --> 0:18:35.363 For instance, small island states which Singapore is a part 0:18:35.374 --> 0:18:40.764 of for this group. 1.5 is non negotiable because anything 0:18:40.773 --> 0:18:43.634 above that means that all islands will lose their land 0:18:43.644 --> 0:18:44.413 and is an existing 0:18:44.484 --> 0:18:47.176 potential threat. But how do you balance these interests with 0:18:47.186 --> 0:18:50.586 other people or other nations that want to continue developing 0:18:50.595 --> 0:18:53.426 and pointing out that it's hypocritical for this block of 0:18:53.436 --> 0:18:56.066 countries to tell us not to develop because you have 0:18:56.076 --> 0:18:59.406 reaped the benefits of fossil fuels and we haven't. So 0:18:59.416 --> 0:19:03.026 we need that objectivity and that is our biggest strength 0:19:03.036 --> 0:19:06.865 to offer to these governments in these discussions about climate action. 0:19:06.875 --> 0:19:09.566 But there's one more level of complexity that we can 0:19:09.576 --> 0:19:10.306 go into here. 0:19:10.660 --> 0:19:13.709 And so the IPCC, what Winston works in, that's unique 0:19:13.719 --> 0:19:16.300 in my opinion, because you have a range of academics 0:19:16.310 --> 0:19:20.119 from different disciplines coming up with a consensus in many ways, 0:19:20.449 --> 0:19:21.439 that's not the norm. 0:19:21.949 --> 0:19:24.719 So the norm in most disciplines and across disciplines is 0:19:24.729 --> 0:19:28.290 not consensus. Often. I think that the outside world sees 0:19:28.300 --> 0:19:31.489 the academy as being unified, but it's actually very fragmented. 0:19:31.819 --> 0:19:35.010 So we still need to improve in the Academy of 0:19:35.020 --> 0:19:38.399 talking to each other, engaging with different viewpoints. So it's 0:19:38.410 --> 0:19:41.050 not just changing the view of the person you're talking to, 0:19:41.060 --> 0:19:43.170 it's trying to get other people to understand 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:47.579 each other's perspective as well. It goes back to communication, 0:19:47.750 --> 0:19:49.780 it does. Now, I didn't want to let you guys 0:19:49.790 --> 0:19:54.170 go without asking you about your virtual reality project. This 0:19:54.180 --> 0:19:58.260 is effectively a communication tool, right? Yeah. So it's a 0:19:58.270 --> 0:20:02.208 project that Winston myself and a couple of colleagues at NTU. 0:20:02.219 --> 0:20:04.530 So Sonny Rosenthal and Adam Switzer are working on. 0:20:05.150 --> 0:20:08.790 We're basically taking the climate science data and we're trying 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:09.359 to 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:14.609 see the different futures that can exist with different assumptions 0:20:15.180 --> 0:20:18.780 and what that will look like for Singapore and possibly 0:20:18.790 --> 0:20:22.439 our Southeast Asian neighbors as well. Basically, we're creating a 0:20:22.449 --> 0:20:25.719 choose your own adventure book in virtual reality. It's like 0:20:25.729 --> 0:20:26.209 a game. 0:20:26.510 --> 0:20:30.439 And so we'll use the climate data map different scenarios. 0:20:30.449 --> 0:20:33.760 And at each node, the person, the participant will be 0:20:33.770 --> 0:20:36.800 able to react differently. I'm going to pick this strategy 0:20:36.810 --> 0:20:39.149 to go forward or this strategy and then we will 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.400 see the different outcomes that can happen and it's all 0:20:42.410 --> 0:20:45.680 with the headset. So like rising waters that from the point, 0:20:45.780 --> 0:20:49.119 the view of the user, you have the rising sea levels, 0:20:49.130 --> 0:20:52.000 you have the rain. And yeah, we're toying with the 0:20:52.010 --> 0:20:56.849 idea of a tropical cyclone which there's some for it 0:20:56.859 --> 0:21:00.660 could happen. It did happen in Singapore in 2001. But yeah, 0:21:00.670 --> 0:21:04.459 low likelihood high impact would we be ready? We'll find 0:21:04.469 --> 0:21:08.229 out that's part of the, hopefully one of the outcomes 0:21:08.239 --> 0:21:09.290 that we have in the research 0:21:14.599 --> 0:21:17.329 and bringing the future to the present. There was Associate 0:21:17.339 --> 0:21:20.910 Professor Terry Vange Velt and Professor Winston Chao from Singapore 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:25.410 Management University. But really, Jack, we're already getting a taste 0:21:25.420 --> 0:21:29.020 of those scenarios in real life in the present, aren't we? 0:21:29.030 --> 0:21:31.030 With the heat wave here and the rain we saw 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.739 in Dubai and the region? Yeah, we don't need technology 0:21:34.750 --> 0:21:38.390 and virtual reality to understand these phenomenon. We just need 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:39.819 to walk outside it feels like. 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:43.250 All right. Uh I hope you've been thinking about your 0:21:43.260 --> 0:21:47.479 quiz answer. A reminder of the question who has had 0:21:47.489 --> 0:21:50.959 the wettest day on record? Is it Dubai? Now, after 0:21:50.969 --> 0:21:55.438 those incredible floods that we saw recently or is it Singapore? 0:21:55.719 --> 0:21:58.569 I think it's Dubai just going by the video and 0:21:58.579 --> 0:22:00.719 the footage we saw, I can't recall a time when 0:22:00.729 --> 0:22:04.218 I saw something like this happening in Singapore and we 0:22:04.229 --> 0:22:05.420 also know that the 0:22:05.545 --> 0:22:09.675 region that Dubai is in, they see more extreme fluctuations 0:22:09.685 --> 0:22:12.814 in weather conditions. So I'm going to guess Dubai you've 0:22:12.824 --> 0:22:19.764 locked in Dubai. The answer is Singapore in December 1978 0:22:19.875 --> 0:22:24.405 over a 24 hour period, 512 millimeters of rain, 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.849