WEBVTT - Why don’t we care more about climate change?

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<v Speaker 1>This is a C. N. A. Podcast. If you've been

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<v Speaker 1>listening to this podcast, it's probably no surprise to you

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<v Speaker 1>that dire warnings of extreme heat and deadly floods have

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<v Speaker 1>not been enough to motivate people to take concrete action

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<v Speaker 1>in the fight against climate change. And it now seems

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<v Speaker 1>that when it comes to making decisions that benefit the planet,

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<v Speaker 1>our brains can often get in the way.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the climate conversations. I'm your host, julie. You

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<v Speaker 1>psychologists have found that the mental shortcuts we used to

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<v Speaker 1>make quick and efficient decisions every day can in fact

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<v Speaker 1>prevent you from making more sustainable choices.

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<v Speaker 1>What is it about human psychology that creates deniers, despairs

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<v Speaker 1>and doers. Why is it so hard to get humanity

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<v Speaker 1>to care enough to do something about climate change compared

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<v Speaker 1>to other issues such as Covid,

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<v Speaker 1>my guest today took a deeper dive into these issues

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<v Speaker 1>and are joining me to share more about what they

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<v Speaker 1>found out.

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<v Speaker 1>Edward choi and joe are a married couple and theater

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<v Speaker 1>actors and they recently hosted a C. N. A documentary.

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<v Speaker 1>Who cares about polar bears on this very topic. Welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to you both have you you all work in theater

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<v Speaker 1>acting hosting. And when you were approached to be part

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<v Speaker 1>of this documentary about climate change and not only climate change,

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<v Speaker 1>but this whole psychological aspect of it. What was your

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<v Speaker 1>reaction Ed?

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<v Speaker 1>So I think the first was genuine pleasant surprise because

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<v Speaker 1>we are much better known for other things. So I

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<v Speaker 1>was immediately like yes, I've absolutely got to do this

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<v Speaker 1>because I'm the one at home who's completely obsessed with

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<v Speaker 1>making sure the lights are switched off and that all

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<v Speaker 1>the doors are closed when we've got air conditioning on.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm hardcore that way,

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<v Speaker 1>it was very obvious. I mean, I'm the one who

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<v Speaker 1>tells that we should really be taking more public transport,

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<v Speaker 1>but I have to say the first reaction I got

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<v Speaker 1>when we were asked to host this was guilt because

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<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of singaporeans as included do feel

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<v Speaker 1>that we're not doing enough for the environment. We posted

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<v Speaker 1>Children for the environment. I would definitely not say so,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think this

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<v Speaker 1>documentary was actually a great way to help us across

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<v Speaker 1>this huge psychological gulf that, you know, just because you

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<v Speaker 1>cannot be the only person to single handedly rescue Mother

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<v Speaker 1>Earth from the brink of collapse. Doesn't mean that you

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<v Speaker 1>shouldn't start somewhere. Absolutely. Your documentary really explores why our

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<v Speaker 1>brains make it difficult to take action as climate change.

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<v Speaker 1>The intro even wanted to say that climate change

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<v Speaker 1>is said to be the worst problem for the human

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<v Speaker 1>psyche to handle. So let's get deeper into that. Why

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<v Speaker 1>aren't people worried or doing enough despite the rhetoric about

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<v Speaker 1>doom and gloom messages? What are some of the key

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<v Speaker 1>factors I found? I think we explored a whole bunch

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<v Speaker 1>of psychological barriers. I mean, what was it we called

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<v Speaker 1>cognitive descendants? Right, So it's what we know about something,

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<v Speaker 1>but we don't act on it. And some

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<v Speaker 1>of these examples would be hyperbolic discounting and that just

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<v Speaker 1>means that okay I'm more focused on for example spending

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<v Speaker 1>less today to get a product with a higher carbon

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<v Speaker 1>footprint than thinking about the long term consequences of what

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<v Speaker 1>I do. If I encourage this company to produce more

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<v Speaker 1>of these things, it just seems very far away. This

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<v Speaker 1>this whole psychological distance, human beings are really, really stubborn

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<v Speaker 1>when people are told heart disease patients are told that

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<v Speaker 1>they must change their lifestyles

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<v Speaker 1>in order not to die. Only one in seven heart

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<v Speaker 1>patients are able to do so and so this is

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<v Speaker 1>literally a life or death decision. As joe has said,

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<v Speaker 1>there are all these things that companies normally use that

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<v Speaker 1>they know work on our brains to manipulate it to

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<v Speaker 1>sell us things.

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<v Speaker 1>Those same things can be used to help convince us

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<v Speaker 1>to change our behavior so that we can do a

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<v Speaker 1>bit more for the environment and maybe slow things down

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<v Speaker 1>a little. Yeah, there's absolutely reason for hope and but

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<v Speaker 1>sadly I'm sure

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<v Speaker 1>what did you guys just said bring true for many

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<v Speaker 1>people listening to the podcast who know that climate change

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<v Speaker 1>is happening, the impacts are bad and only gonna get worse.

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<v Speaker 1>So they make minor changes but overall continue to live

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<v Speaker 1>a sort of a typical high carbon lifestyle. So to

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<v Speaker 1>find out more about your psychological tendencies, you both have

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<v Speaker 1>run

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<v Speaker 1>multiple social experiments on this documentary out of all of them,

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<v Speaker 1>what are some of the things that we found most surprising? Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so one of the experiments that I led was actually

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<v Speaker 1>in a little cafe in Mediacorp itself. We had this

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<v Speaker 1>survey where we ask people, okay, so this is a

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<v Speaker 1>$4 cup of coffee and this other cup of coffee

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<v Speaker 1>is $6 but

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<v Speaker 1>it has a much lower carbon footprint. And we asked

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<v Speaker 1>people what they would choose and almost every single person

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<v Speaker 1>went for the $4 cup of coffee. So that wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>surprising to me. You know, it's a very singaporean thing

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<v Speaker 1>to do, I would say. But another very singaporean result

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<v Speaker 1>was that when we tied in a free reusable mug

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<v Speaker 1>to the $6 cup of coffee.

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<v Speaker 1>Then people were like, oh you know what I do

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<v Speaker 1>like that, I will go for that bearing in mind

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<v Speaker 1>that it is friendlier for climate change and I get

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<v Speaker 1>a free gift, that's what we should go for. And

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<v Speaker 1>I was just thinking, wow, that's it. We really are

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<v Speaker 1>suckers for free gifts. And I actually tried that on myself, interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>So you were talking about people's tendency to evaluate costs,

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<v Speaker 1>benefits and we prefer to

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<v Speaker 1>go for immediate benefits and delay cost. Is that what

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<v Speaker 1>you're saying? Totally. Yeah, it's called hyperbolic discounting. But yes,

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<v Speaker 1>yours is a much more understandable way of putting it.

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<v Speaker 1>One thing I also noticed about one of the experiments

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<v Speaker 1>that you conducted, it was on psychological distance, how we

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<v Speaker 1>sort of tune out climate change from my conversations or

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<v Speaker 1>actions when the problem seems far away abstract

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<v Speaker 1>irrelevant. Tell me about that. What you found out. Thanks

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<v Speaker 1>for asking that question because it's completely related to the

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<v Speaker 1>title of the show. We don't care about polar bears

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<v Speaker 1>because the only one we've ever had here passed away

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<v Speaker 1>a few years ago, but now there's no polar bear

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<v Speaker 1>to look at. When people tell us about polar bears

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<v Speaker 1>literally halfway across the world, how does it relate to

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<v Speaker 1>me in my everyday experience? However,

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<v Speaker 1>when we tell people, hey, this relates to Singapore for

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<v Speaker 1>you or for your Children,

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<v Speaker 1>that Singapore is going to be harder to live in

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<v Speaker 1>for yourself or your kids, that helps us latch onto

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<v Speaker 1>ways in which we can get the message across me

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<v Speaker 1>here and now. Right. And I guess it's tougher for

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of us here in Singapore because we're sort

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<v Speaker 1>of insulated from the worst effects of climate change we

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<v Speaker 1>often don't talk or worry about.

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<v Speaker 1>And another sort of theory that you guys dealt with

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<v Speaker 1>what it's called? Bystander effect, joe explained to me how

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<v Speaker 1>this sort of psychological phenomenon applies to So I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 1>use Ed as a bad example, sorry, Ed. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>like a lot of the times, like during this interview,

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<v Speaker 1>he was saying that corporations manipulate people corporations do these

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<v Speaker 1>corporations do that. So bystander effect is, for example, when

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<v Speaker 1>you assume that somebody else is going to do something

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<v Speaker 1>because everybody knows about it

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<v Speaker 1>and it's an easy thing for us to just go, well,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the corporations are causing a lot of this

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<v Speaker 1>climate change, corporations need to fix this, what can I do?

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<v Speaker 1>But the fact is that everybody can make a difference

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<v Speaker 1>and when bystander effect kicks in, sometimes people forget that

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<v Speaker 1>they can be the person to make the difference. Suppose

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<v Speaker 1>one way that we learn to kind of hack our

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<v Speaker 1>brains is to,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know it, I suppose just really just take

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<v Speaker 1>more responsibility for it. You know, I mean what I

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<v Speaker 1>said and I'm not very healthy for a marriage, but

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<v Speaker 1>hopefully it's better for the environment, you know, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>So that's not so much bystander effect as what we

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<v Speaker 1>also studied, which was in group out group like, hey

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<v Speaker 1>everybody is doing this so you should do that too.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm just really Nagy to add sometimes and it's

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<v Speaker 1>Nagy the same way to me and that way we

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<v Speaker 1>can hold each other accountable. I hope for real joe

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<v Speaker 1>has gotten me to stop taking plastic bags from the supermarket,

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<v Speaker 1>which is a big deal.

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<v Speaker 1>So overall we discussed some psychological barriers to go green

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<v Speaker 1>with big names and scientific labels, but I'm sure there

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<v Speaker 1>are those in Singapore wondering, come on, we're living in

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<v Speaker 1>this tiny country. Our emissions account for with tiny amount

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<v Speaker 1>relative to the rest of the world.

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<v Speaker 1>Would you like to say to those who ask, is

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<v Speaker 1>it worth altering our lives and overcome all these psychological barriers?

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<v Speaker 1>What would you say to them? I would say absolutely.

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<v Speaker 1>Because as consumers, we have such power. Right. What I

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<v Speaker 1>personally do is that I have stopped buying any clothing

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<v Speaker 1>that is not secondhand because I do find that waste

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<v Speaker 1>from the clothing industry has been proven to be so

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<v Speaker 1>damaging

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<v Speaker 1>and it's increasingly becoming a priority for consumers in Singapore

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<v Speaker 1>and beyond where they don't want to keep supporting unsustainable fashion.

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<v Speaker 1>And that just pressures the people who are coming up

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<v Speaker 1>with this fashion to go like, okay, we have to

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<v Speaker 1>change our behavior, consumers have power. We need to

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<v Speaker 1>generate their grounds well, so that there's enough of us

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<v Speaker 1>to make a change on my side because as you

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<v Speaker 1>can tell, I'm quite obsessed with the idea that Corporates

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<v Speaker 1>have to change in order for there to be meaningful

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<v Speaker 1>change for the planet. I'm also financial literacy advocate and

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<v Speaker 1>as part of investing, I would encourage everyone to look

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<v Speaker 1>into E. S. G. A lot of people here straightaway,

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<v Speaker 1>this switch goes off in their head.

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<v Speaker 1>It's nonsense. It's ridiculous. It's just another thing they use

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<v Speaker 1>to make you invest in them. But that said there

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<v Speaker 1>have been many companies that have been forced to work

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<v Speaker 1>in ways which are a lot more green. We're talking

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<v Speaker 1>massive companies making billions of dollars of investments. I would

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<v Speaker 1>advise people and this is a deep rabbit hole. You

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<v Speaker 1>can go into

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<v Speaker 1>to look for funds that allow you to place your

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<v Speaker 1>money with activist fund houses or fund managers that will

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<v Speaker 1>actively pressure the boards of companies to do better for

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<v Speaker 1>the environment.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, maybe look like a drop in the bucket, but

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<v Speaker 1>it can become a powerful force. So joe and Ed

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<v Speaker 1>as a couple. I'm sure there are a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>couples who are listening to the podcast. What are some

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<v Speaker 1>of the ways that you have or will be incorporating

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<v Speaker 1>sort of climate action into your daily habits after working

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<v Speaker 1>on this documentary. Oh no, she's asking for commitment, public

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<v Speaker 1>commitment to commit more behavior now. I think definitely for myself,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to try to switch to

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<v Speaker 1>Buying everything as possible. 2nd hand. I've also become pesca

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<v Speaker 1>teary in several years ago just to try to minimize

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<v Speaker 1>my meat consumption.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna go and try to keep pushing onto vegetarian

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<v Speaker 1>because fish have feelings too. I don't know whether that's true,

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<v Speaker 1>but I mean you better for the environment. So I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to commit to doing that and you guys are

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<v Speaker 1>doing this as a couple or just, you know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's just me and tell me about your commitments. So

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<v Speaker 1>instead of buying a car, which we've been thinking about

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<v Speaker 1>for quite a while, we've discovered that close and very

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<v Speaker 1>good alternative is actually electric car rental services.

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<v Speaker 1>It's cheaper than buying a car. It's not as convenient,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's definitely better for the environment. Internal combustion engines

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<v Speaker 1>is the technology. I think that's going to be phased

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<v Speaker 1>out the Singapore. Government agrees. My issue is that it's

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<v Speaker 1>not as convenient as it could be.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm grateful the government is doing their part to just

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<v Speaker 1>change the infrastructure in Singapore. So I'm praying they will

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<v Speaker 1>be easier and there'll be more service providers for people

0:12:30.780 --> 0:12:33.770
<v Speaker 1>to rent these electric cars. And one of the fun

0:12:33.770 --> 0:12:36.850
<v Speaker 1>things is that we've discovered how to create a cross

0:12:36.850 --> 0:12:37.720
<v Speaker 1>wind in our house

0:12:37.730 --> 0:12:40.960
<v Speaker 1>by opening the right windows so we don't need air conditioning.

0:12:40.970 --> 0:12:44.770
<v Speaker 1>All right, so two heads obviously better than one and

0:12:44.770 --> 0:12:47.540
<v Speaker 1>together you can make twice the impact in tackling this

0:12:47.550 --> 0:12:50.490
<v Speaker 1>global challenge. Alright, so before I let you guys go,

0:12:50.490 --> 0:12:52.910
<v Speaker 1>if you could change one thing about how most people

0:12:52.910 --> 0:12:54.980
<v Speaker 1>approach climate change, what would it be?

0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:58.130
<v Speaker 1>I think personally for myself I would say really just

0:12:58.130 --> 0:13:03.100
<v Speaker 1>look into reusing the whole scene now where people gift

0:13:03.100 --> 0:13:04.689
<v Speaker 1>each other things that you don't have a use for

0:13:04.690 --> 0:13:06.429
<v Speaker 1>one man's meat is another man's points and there's so

0:13:06.429 --> 0:13:08.680
<v Speaker 1>many forums, so many outlets, you can do that, you

0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.540
<v Speaker 1>don't need to buy more stuff. My biggest bugbear is

0:13:11.540 --> 0:13:14.940
<v Speaker 1>people not sorting their recycling. The other day, I saw

0:13:14.950 --> 0:13:17.560
<v Speaker 1>a taxi driver step out of his taxi and throw

0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.390
<v Speaker 1>his bag of copy that he just finished drinking into

0:13:20.390 --> 0:13:21.370
<v Speaker 1>the recycling bin,

0:13:21.820 --> 0:13:24.220
<v Speaker 1>which ruins the entire bin. By the way, folks, that's

0:13:24.220 --> 0:13:27.510
<v Speaker 1>the one thing I would really want to change for people. Look,

0:13:27.510 --> 0:13:30.770
<v Speaker 1>we have single stream recycling, we don't even have to

0:13:30.770 --> 0:13:34.829
<v Speaker 1>sort it into separate boxes to put them in individually Singapore.

0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.520
<v Speaker 1>Makes it that simple. If people would just stop throwing

0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:39.630
<v Speaker 1>their used pizza boxes in

0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:43.160
<v Speaker 1>to the blue bins, I'd be very, very grateful. Alright,

0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.450
<v Speaker 1>great message to end on. Thank you so much for

0:13:45.450 --> 0:13:48.109
<v Speaker 1>making it to the end of this episode. I hope

0:13:48.110 --> 0:13:51.100
<v Speaker 1>you've learned some new tips and how to hack your

0:13:51.110 --> 0:13:55.229
<v Speaker 1>own psychology and to make more eco friendly choices our

0:13:55.230 --> 0:13:57.459
<v Speaker 1>planet may just depend on it.

0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.860
<v Speaker 1>But thanks for listening to the climate conversations. The team

0:14:00.860 --> 0:14:05.390
<v Speaker 1>behind this podcast is Jacqueline, chan, Joanne, chan Tiffany, young

0:14:05.420 --> 0:14:09.150
<v Speaker 1>and Christina robert and I'm julie you signing off till

0:14:09.150 --> 0:14:09.910
<v Speaker 1>the next time