1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,250 Speaker 1: This is a C. N. A podcast. 2 00:00:06,460 --> 00:00:10,869 Speaker 1: 57 years old, yep, it's a birthday special today, but 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,450 Speaker 1: let's just be clear first. We're not talking about my 4 00:00:13,450 --> 00:00:17,390 Speaker 1: birthday is actually Singapore's birthday. Not exactly a milestone birthday 5 00:00:17,390 --> 00:00:21,369 Speaker 1: by any measure, but after two bruising years of covid 19, 6 00:00:21,380 --> 00:00:25,030 Speaker 1: Singapore is at an inflection point not too long ago. 7 00:00:25,030 --> 00:00:27,950 Speaker 1: Deputy Prime Minister Lawrence Wong framed the changes Singapore is 8 00:00:27,950 --> 00:00:31,710 Speaker 1: facing when he launched forward Singapore a year long exercise 9 00:00:31,710 --> 00:00:34,659 Speaker 1: that will review and refresh Singapore's social compact 10 00:00:34,970 --> 00:00:39,740 Speaker 1: In this speech on June 28, he said domestically to 11 00:00:39,750 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: we have to deal with a number of social trends 12 00:00:42,409 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: with long term consequences, a rapidly aging population, a concern 13 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,409 Speaker 1: that social mobility is slowing with those who have done well, 14 00:00:51,409 --> 00:00:55,330 Speaker 1: pulling further ahead of the rest due to their entrenched 15 00:00:55,340 --> 00:01:01,690 Speaker 1: advantages and with that mounting anxieties among many of being 16 00:01:01,690 --> 00:01:03,620 Speaker 1: displaced by others. 17 00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:08,550 Speaker 1: These are very real fears in our stressful society, the 18 00:01:08,550 --> 00:01:12,810 Speaker 1: fear of not doing well enough of being left behind 19 00:01:12,819 --> 00:01:15,850 Speaker 1: and that's what we want to get into today. What 20 00:01:15,850 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: exactly is our social compact and what are some tough 21 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: conversations we need to have around it today. We want 22 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,810 Speaker 1: to focus on inequality and our sense of identity 23 00:01:25,380 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: with me today are three guests who spanned different generations 24 00:01:28,370 --> 00:01:32,449 Speaker 1: of Singaporeans. The first is no stranger to us, Ambassador 25 00:01:32,450 --> 00:01:36,180 Speaker 1: at large, Professor Tommy, koh, is here. Thank you steve. 26 00:01:36,730 --> 00:01:40,690 Speaker 1: I'm on the program to represent the older people of Singapore. 27 00:01:40,700 --> 00:01:43,390 Speaker 1: I'm 84 years old and I'm very happy to take 28 00:01:43,390 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: part in this program but still super young at heart. Yes, absolutely. 29 00:01:47,090 --> 00:01:50,510 Speaker 1: And next we have has Lena Halim, she is Ceo 30 00:01:50,510 --> 00:01:53,930 Speaker 1: and make a Wish foundation. She is also president of P. P. I. S, 31 00:01:53,930 --> 00:01:58,260 Speaker 1: a nonprofit organization that supports less privileged muslim, women, Children 32 00:01:58,260 --> 00:02:01,630 Speaker 1: and families. Hi steve. Thanks for having me here. 33 00:02:01,820 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: And finally we have Laura Cima, third year S. M. U. 34 00:02:04,650 --> 00:02:08,060 Speaker 1: Law student. She told me that she's just turned 21 35 00:02:08,070 --> 00:02:09,070 Speaker 1: this year. 36 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,410 Speaker 2: Hi steve for everyone, very excited to be part of 37 00:02:12,410 --> 00:02:13,290 Speaker 2: this podcast. 38 00:02:13,300 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: So welcome everyone. Thanks so much for joining us. So 39 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,780 Speaker 1: we've heard Singapore's Deputy Prime Minister speak earlier about the 40 00:02:19,780 --> 00:02:22,820 Speaker 1: serious changes happening not just around the world but also 41 00:02:22,820 --> 00:02:23,930 Speaker 1: here in Singapore. 42 00:02:24,190 --> 00:02:27,250 Speaker 1: Social trends like a fast aging population and a segment 43 00:02:27,250 --> 00:02:29,690 Speaker 1: of society that feels that they are being left behind. 44 00:02:29,700 --> 00:02:33,140 Speaker 1: So I can start with you, what is your sense 45 00:02:33,139 --> 00:02:36,990 Speaker 1: of what has shifted, what has the pandemic reviewed which 46 00:02:36,990 --> 00:02:41,910 Speaker 1: was previously hidden. It accentuated the many problems that older 47 00:02:41,910 --> 00:02:45,660 Speaker 1: people in Singapore experience. So I want to begin by 48 00:02:45,660 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: saying that the older people of Singapore is a neglected constituency. 49 00:02:51,110 --> 00:02:53,900 Speaker 1: Nobody speaks up for them, you know. But of course 50 00:02:53,900 --> 00:02:56,690 Speaker 1: there are some older people like me who are privileged, 51 00:02:56,700 --> 00:02:59,850 Speaker 1: I'm in good health and still working full time, but 52 00:02:59,850 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 1: there are many others who are forced to retire, some 53 00:03:03,530 --> 00:03:08,889 Speaker 1: as early as 55, 60, 62 and many old people 54 00:03:08,889 --> 00:03:12,890 Speaker 1: in Singapore suffer from the following problems poverty because they 55 00:03:12,889 --> 00:03:15,950 Speaker 1: don't have enough savings for their old age, hunger. You'll 56 00:03:15,950 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: be surprised that there are many older people in Singapore 57 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:20,150 Speaker 1: living with hunger. 58 00:03:20,570 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 1: And if you consult the charity willing hearts, they will 59 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:29,869 Speaker 1: tell you that every day deliver 11,000 cooked meals to 60 00:03:29,870 --> 00:03:32,980 Speaker 1: these folks and others, many of them are in poor health, 61 00:03:32,990 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: so health is another issue. Some of them are very lonely, 62 00:03:38,130 --> 00:03:41,380 Speaker 1: they live very lonely life because they have no family, 63 00:03:41,390 --> 00:03:44,610 Speaker 1: they have no friends and some of them are so 64 00:03:44,610 --> 00:03:46,310 Speaker 1: unhappy and depressed that 65 00:03:46,670 --> 00:03:49,900 Speaker 1: they take their own life. There's a high incidence of 66 00:03:49,900 --> 00:03:54,260 Speaker 1: seaside by older people. Finally, I want to talk about 67 00:03:54,270 --> 00:03:58,020 Speaker 1: a very important issue that's not on Singapore's agenda, which 68 00:03:58,020 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: is discrimination against older people, I'm glad you face that 69 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,250 Speaker 1: we will definitely touch on that. I mean so much 70 00:04:05,250 --> 00:04:07,740 Speaker 1: has changed and what you've brought to light actually paint 71 00:04:07,740 --> 00:04:11,270 Speaker 1: a fairly bleak picture of our country has you work 72 00:04:11,270 --> 00:04:13,850 Speaker 1: with disadvantaged families in the malay community. 73 00:04:14,210 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: What would you say was the biggest impact on them 74 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: these past two years? I think one of the main 75 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: challenges in battling the pandemic is that most of us 76 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,859 Speaker 1: are never really prepared. What more if we're not prepared 77 00:04:26,870 --> 00:04:30,500 Speaker 1: for everyday living versus pandemic or crisis living? 78 00:04:30,710 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: So that possibly was one of the challenges that was unearthed. 79 00:04:34,490 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: And one other aspect that I felt the pandemic highlighted 80 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:44,420 Speaker 1: was really how a lot more of us privileged than 81 00:04:44,420 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: we ever thought for a simple reason like you're living experiences. 82 00:04:48,730 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: So what we discovered is that there were folks who 83 00:04:52,010 --> 00:04:55,870 Speaker 1: was just finding so much challenges being at home because 84 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: of the limitation and space and infrastructure, 85 00:04:58,690 --> 00:05:02,330 Speaker 1: even limitations in connectivity. We have a very high mobile 86 00:05:02,330 --> 00:05:06,539 Speaker 1: internet penetration rate in Singapore, almost double than home internet 87 00:05:06,540 --> 00:05:09,990 Speaker 1: broadband use, What does that say? It unearths a little 88 00:05:09,990 --> 00:05:12,650 Speaker 1: bit of a digital divide in terms of the haves 89 00:05:12,650 --> 00:05:15,750 Speaker 1: and have nots. So that's one discovery and the others 90 00:05:15,750 --> 00:05:20,110 Speaker 1: of course is preparing for when your jobs disappear because 91 00:05:20,110 --> 00:05:23,020 Speaker 1: I think that's one thing what the pandemic has highlighted 92 00:05:23,020 --> 00:05:27,450 Speaker 1: to us that jobs can disappear even if temporarily they do. 93 00:05:27,690 --> 00:05:30,460 Speaker 1: And those were the kind of challenges that were we 94 00:05:30,460 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: discovered as for families and families with Children, for example, 95 00:05:35,089 --> 00:05:37,729 Speaker 1: really it's about how do you mitigate the disruption in 96 00:05:37,730 --> 00:05:41,029 Speaker 1: the Children's lives? How did it impact the Children when 97 00:05:41,029 --> 00:05:43,730 Speaker 1: things were at a standstill, there's going to be a 98 00:05:43,740 --> 00:05:45,750 Speaker 1: generation of covid babies, right, 99 00:05:45,779 --> 00:05:50,830 Speaker 1: Covid toddlers and even covid marriages. So that's really, really 100 00:05:50,830 --> 00:05:53,890 Speaker 1: interesting to explore how things work out. But one thing 101 00:05:53,890 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: good was that while there were some challenges to jump 102 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,390 Speaker 1: on the digital bandwagon, we, as a whole pretty much 103 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,929 Speaker 1: sped up by seven years or something to that effect 104 00:06:03,940 --> 00:06:07,380 Speaker 1: and that is attraction that we must continue to ride on. 105 00:06:07,390 --> 00:06:11,610 Speaker 1: Um so that we ensure that people are not left behind. 106 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:13,450 Speaker 1: So you guys have mentioned a lot, I mean a 107 00:06:13,450 --> 00:06:14,650 Speaker 1: lot of the stuff we want to cover in a 108 00:06:14,650 --> 00:06:18,070 Speaker 1: short while, but a fairly bleak picture, Laura, what was 109 00:06:18,070 --> 00:06:19,070 Speaker 1: it like for you? 110 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 2: I feel like what I complain about. I think in 111 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,950 Speaker 2: my experience is a lot less significant in comparison. I really, 112 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,750 Speaker 2: I think has this point about the digital divide really, 113 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,910 Speaker 2: really struck something within me because I've attended two semesters 114 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,489 Speaker 2: of university online, you don't really know what you, what 115 00:06:36,490 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 2: you have in comparison to others until you hear about it. 116 00:06:39,570 --> 00:06:42,700 Speaker 2: Things like having your own room to attend classes in 117 00:06:42,710 --> 00:06:47,510 Speaker 2: even silence is a privilege. Sometimes I also volunteered and 118 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,979 Speaker 2: basically gave to drink sessions to students from a community center. 119 00:06:52,330 --> 00:06:55,650 Speaker 2: And I think what the experience taught me was that 120 00:06:55,660 --> 00:06:57,779 Speaker 2: things like being able to sit in your own room 121 00:06:57,779 --> 00:07:02,180 Speaker 2: without disruptions, being able to access electronic devices without sharing 122 00:07:02,180 --> 00:07:05,750 Speaker 2: it with with your siblings having to divide time up. 123 00:07:05,750 --> 00:07:09,090 Speaker 2: Those are all things that you don't think about, especially 124 00:07:09,089 --> 00:07:11,690 Speaker 2: for students. I think that's one of the things that 125 00:07:11,700 --> 00:07:14,870 Speaker 2: Covid has taught me that you really have to think 126 00:07:14,870 --> 00:07:17,740 Speaker 2: about who you're leaving behind as you go forward. I 127 00:07:17,740 --> 00:07:21,220 Speaker 2: personally really appreciate these technological advancements. I feel like 128 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,860 Speaker 2: it's a lot of accommodations for students who may not 129 00:07:23,860 --> 00:07:27,620 Speaker 2: be able to attend classes regularly or who may have 130 00:07:27,620 --> 00:07:30,780 Speaker 2: to struggle with certain things like family situations 131 00:07:30,790 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: just quickly because you did speak a few times about 132 00:07:34,370 --> 00:07:36,740 Speaker 1: how it appears to be a little bleak. I'm gonna 133 00:07:36,740 --> 00:07:41,510 Speaker 1: ride on Laura's point in discovering or riding the digital bandwagon. 134 00:07:41,510 --> 00:07:41,980 Speaker 1: I think another, 135 00:07:41,996 --> 00:07:43,996 Speaker 1: the thing that the pandemic of the past two years 136 00:07:43,996 --> 00:07:46,766 Speaker 1: on earth was the compassion in people's hearts. I think, 137 00:07:46,766 --> 00:07:50,796 Speaker 1: let's not forget that and that is quite motivational as 138 00:07:50,806 --> 00:07:54,106 Speaker 1: a community, as a society. We unlocked a portion of 139 00:07:54,106 --> 00:07:56,476 Speaker 1: our hearts that give a little bit more because we 140 00:07:56,476 --> 00:07:59,176 Speaker 1: recognize that we had a little bit more than what 141 00:07:59,176 --> 00:08:02,540 Speaker 1: we thought to spare. That was also something we reckon 142 00:08:02,552 --> 00:08:06,572 Speaker 1: nice and benefited from in terms of people ground up 143 00:08:06,572 --> 00:08:10,502 Speaker 1: solutions to just help and that should not be forgotten 144 00:08:10,512 --> 00:08:14,292 Speaker 1: and that should also be continued. It's like the momentum, right? 145 00:08:14,292 --> 00:08:16,912 Speaker 1: So don't don't stop with the giving. I mean, in 146 00:08:16,912 --> 00:08:19,631 Speaker 1: a way the pandemic did bring to the fore certain things, 147 00:08:19,632 --> 00:08:21,932 Speaker 1: you know, we were forced into circumstances where we had 148 00:08:21,942 --> 00:08:23,102 Speaker 1: to either sink or swim. 149 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,989 Speaker 1: So let's talk a bit first about social mobility and 150 00:08:25,990 --> 00:08:28,650 Speaker 1: that divide between the haves and the have nots. We're 151 00:08:28,650 --> 00:08:31,930 Speaker 1: saying that inequality is increasing and this is a very 152 00:08:31,930 --> 00:08:35,030 Speaker 1: complex issue that not just us in Singapore faces all 153 00:08:35,030 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: over the world, but what do you think makes our 154 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,910 Speaker 1: situation here in Singapore a bit different? 155 00:08:41,500 --> 00:08:43,910 Speaker 1: I would say we take good care of our people 156 00:08:43,910 --> 00:08:47,900 Speaker 1: in general. So, a friend of mine from another country 157 00:08:47,910 --> 00:08:51,530 Speaker 1: said to me Tommy I'd rather be poor in Singapore 158 00:08:51,530 --> 00:08:55,069 Speaker 1: than be poor in my home country, why is that? 159 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,860 Speaker 1: I think she feels that unlike her own country in Singapore, 160 00:08:58,860 --> 00:09:01,590 Speaker 1: if you're poor, you still have a home of your own. 161 00:09:02,300 --> 00:09:05,650 Speaker 1: You have a job because we have relatively full employment. 162 00:09:05,660 --> 00:09:09,250 Speaker 1: We have good school for her Children and there's very 163 00:09:09,250 --> 00:09:12,050 Speaker 1: little corruption. And we live in a very safe city. 164 00:09:12,059 --> 00:09:14,650 Speaker 1: Things that we take for granted, but she did not 165 00:09:14,650 --> 00:09:17,500 Speaker 1: take those things for granted. So on the whole, I 166 00:09:17,500 --> 00:09:21,100 Speaker 1: would say that we emerge from this pandemic relatively well 167 00:09:21,110 --> 00:09:26,780 Speaker 1: compared to many others. We remain disciplined united, optimistic. 168 00:09:27,210 --> 00:09:31,460 Speaker 1: As said, we cared for each other. The best angels 169 00:09:31,460 --> 00:09:34,580 Speaker 1: of Singapore came to the form rather than the worst. 170 00:09:34,590 --> 00:09:38,150 Speaker 1: So I would say on the whole, the pandemic show 171 00:09:38,150 --> 00:09:40,540 Speaker 1: that we are at heart a good people. But it 172 00:09:40,540 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: was only when we were forced into that circumstance that 173 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:44,939 Speaker 1: we became more compassionate. 174 00:09:45,309 --> 00:09:48,370 Speaker 1: Some would question is it because of our whole concept 175 00:09:48,370 --> 00:09:51,420 Speaker 1: of meritocracy where you know, you work hard, you study hard, 176 00:09:51,420 --> 00:09:53,650 Speaker 1: you will succeed in life. And so we tend to 177 00:09:53,650 --> 00:09:56,510 Speaker 1: be very matter of fact in in approaching the way 178 00:09:56,510 --> 00:09:58,420 Speaker 1: we live our lives here in Singapore. They've often said, 179 00:09:58,420 --> 00:10:01,660 Speaker 1: Singapore is such a practical country. Everything is so practical. 180 00:10:01,670 --> 00:10:04,900 Speaker 1: But do we like the empathy, compassion? It would be 181 00:10:04,900 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 1: a mistake to say, to think that Singaporeans have no heart. 182 00:10:08,570 --> 00:10:12,690 Speaker 1: If you look at the numbers published by the National 183 00:10:12,690 --> 00:10:14,890 Speaker 1: Volunteer and philanthropy center. 184 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: The numbers confirm this optimistic picture I have, which is 185 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,730 Speaker 1: said every passing year, more and more Singaporean volunteer for 186 00:10:23,730 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: a good cause. The number of money we give to 187 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,870 Speaker 1: charity is on the increase. So the project ary is 188 00:10:30,870 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: good 189 00:10:31,990 --> 00:10:35,130 Speaker 1: and if you're not so then will not succeed in 190 00:10:35,130 --> 00:10:38,219 Speaker 1: her good work. Well, you know, they say that necessity 191 00:10:38,220 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: really is the mother of all invention and being backed 192 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,020 Speaker 1: into a corner and not folding into the corner. I 193 00:10:44,020 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: think it's something we should celebrate as well. People do 194 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,230 Speaker 1: care people do realize that they need to step up. 195 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,210 Speaker 1: I think that's another thing that I recognize be your workforce, 196 00:10:51,210 --> 00:10:54,550 Speaker 1: your colleagues or your neighbors. Um for the most part, 197 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: people step up and they have to and given a 198 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:57,420 Speaker 1: chance to 199 00:10:57,580 --> 00:11:01,100 Speaker 1: you recognize that your colleagues all went out of the way. 200 00:11:01,110 --> 00:11:03,770 Speaker 1: For example, at P. P. I. S. We run 17 201 00:11:03,770 --> 00:11:09,020 Speaker 1: centers which benefit women, families and Children and during these 202 00:11:09,030 --> 00:11:11,740 Speaker 1: times the services need to continue. 203 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,010 Speaker 1: And while we were limited by the circuit breaker period, 204 00:11:15,020 --> 00:11:19,860 Speaker 1: our colleagues made no qualms about pivoting services, online therapy, 205 00:11:19,860 --> 00:11:23,140 Speaker 1: be it counseling big case work. And I think that 206 00:11:23,140 --> 00:11:25,620 Speaker 1: was the kind of resilience that social workers had to 207 00:11:25,620 --> 00:11:27,689 Speaker 1: show and totally did. 208 00:11:27,700 --> 00:11:30,860 Speaker 1: So that that was very encouraging all that came to 209 00:11:30,860 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: the front because of the pandemic. So let's talk about 210 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: post pandemic. Now we are trying to get back to 211 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: the way things were to some extent before. And some 212 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: are questioning whether there's still that divide between those who 213 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: have a bit more of an advantage versus those who 214 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,459 Speaker 1: do not laura. I want to ask you this, you 215 00:11:49,460 --> 00:11:52,179 Speaker 1: are in university now, you've been to good schools, you're 216 00:11:52,179 --> 00:11:53,890 Speaker 1: from a fairly comfortable family. 217 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:55,980 Speaker 1: Do you feel like you've had a head start in 218 00:11:55,980 --> 00:11:58,790 Speaker 2: life, if there's one thing that was there before the 219 00:11:58,790 --> 00:12:01,860 Speaker 2: pandemic and became a lot more apparent during the pandemic 220 00:12:01,860 --> 00:12:05,390 Speaker 2: is this idea of privilege. So basically like you would 221 00:12:05,390 --> 00:12:07,790 Speaker 2: expect to hear a lot about things like meritocracy in 222 00:12:07,790 --> 00:12:11,010 Speaker 2: our schools, but actually I found that during my secondary 223 00:12:11,010 --> 00:12:12,940 Speaker 2: school and J. C. Times what we heard a lot 224 00:12:12,940 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 2: more about was things like how you were privileged in 225 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,590 Speaker 2: terms of your race, your family background. On one hand, 226 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,110 Speaker 2: it's something that is definitely a very important awareness to have. 227 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,170 Speaker 2: Like in these schools we really live in very little 228 00:12:25,170 --> 00:12:29,140 Speaker 2: bubbles of students with similar upbringings and our goals in 229 00:12:29,140 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 2: life account like the same. For instance, for me, after 230 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,949 Speaker 2: I entered secondary school, I never considered anything out of 231 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,460 Speaker 2: the J. C. Uni track for my future 232 00:12:37,740 --> 00:12:39,770 Speaker 2: and I think that's probably a norm for a significant 233 00:12:39,770 --> 00:12:42,829 Speaker 2: majority of my peers in secondary school. But I was 234 00:12:42,830 --> 00:12:46,690 Speaker 2: recently reminded of this incident during my internship in M. F. A. 235 00:12:46,690 --> 00:12:49,190 Speaker 2: Where we had a chance to meet professor, Tommy, koh 236 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 2: you picked up the list of interns and you pointed 237 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,810 Speaker 2: out only two of the 20 odd interns there lived 238 00:12:54,809 --> 00:12:56,610 Speaker 2: in H. D. B. S. And it was such a 239 00:12:56,610 --> 00:13:00,030 Speaker 2: jarring experience because it's not something we noticed. It's not 240 00:13:00,030 --> 00:13:01,740 Speaker 2: something we could have noticed. 241 00:13:01,950 --> 00:13:04,709 Speaker 2: That's something that we need to be aware of it. 242 00:13:04,710 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: It's like it's very easy to make the assumption that 243 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,230 Speaker 2: because of our meritocratic system everyone at the table has 244 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,370 Speaker 2: earned their spot. In fact they probably have to some extent. 245 00:13:13,370 --> 00:13:16,060 Speaker 2: But this idea of meritocracy allows us to overlook a 246 00:13:16,059 --> 00:13:18,030 Speaker 2: lot of things and I find it to be a 247 00:13:18,030 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 2: very insidious thing. You know you can really live their 248 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,060 Speaker 2: entire lives not knowing these things. It's good that the 249 00:13:24,059 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 2: pandemic has surfaced such gaps and students are being made 250 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: aware of such privileges. So 251 00:13:29,730 --> 00:13:31,850 Speaker 1: so why did you do that with the interns 252 00:13:32,190 --> 00:13:36,490 Speaker 1: with every cohort of interns first? Take time to study 253 00:13:36,490 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: the CV to see what school they went to, Whether 254 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,339 Speaker 1: they live in public housing, private housing. What is the 255 00:13:44,340 --> 00:13:49,059 Speaker 1: ethnic group, the religion? I tried to urge my colleagues 256 00:13:49,059 --> 00:13:53,270 Speaker 1: in mfc that when they select interns for each cohort 257 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:54,750 Speaker 1: we must not forget 258 00:13:55,270 --> 00:13:57,309 Speaker 1: two important principles 259 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,830 Speaker 1: inclusivity and diversity. 260 00:14:01,410 --> 00:14:05,090 Speaker 1: And sometimes you know we forget and we select a 261 00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:08,100 Speaker 1: group of interns who are as laura said all the 262 00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:10,420 Speaker 1: like they all come from the class family live in 263 00:14:10,420 --> 00:14:14,390 Speaker 1: private housing went to elite schools. But some would argue 264 00:14:14,390 --> 00:14:16,709 Speaker 1: that you just pick the best person for the job regardless. 265 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,150 Speaker 1: But that's not good enough. I think what I want 266 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,790 Speaker 1: is every cohort to be like a microcosm of Singapore 267 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:28,170 Speaker 1: to have people of different races, different income levels, 268 00:14:28,530 --> 00:14:33,460 Speaker 1: different schools, elite school neighborhood schools and this is Singapore, 269 00:14:33,470 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: why do you think that would be good for the 270 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: job or the company they're working for? I think the 271 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: foreign service is our face to the world and I 272 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,820 Speaker 1: think it's especially important that our foreign service should be 273 00:14:44,820 --> 00:14:48,900 Speaker 1: diverse and it should be inclusive because when the Singapore 274 00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:51,100 Speaker 1: delegation is that the U. N. People look at us 275 00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:54,850 Speaker 1: and say this is Singapore. I coach at our annual 276 00:14:54,850 --> 00:14:56,460 Speaker 1: meeting with china. When I bring 277 00:14:56,780 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: people to china always make sure that there are members 278 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: of my delegation who are malays, indians and others 279 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: and the same as a co chair or annual dialogue 280 00:15:07,330 --> 00:15:11,370 Speaker 1: in Japan, I never bring in all chinese delegation or 281 00:15:11,380 --> 00:15:12,650 Speaker 1: all male delegation. 282 00:15:13,660 --> 00:15:15,630 Speaker 1: I think that's cute for me to come in steve 283 00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:20,590 Speaker 1: with the all male delegation line. Croft absolutely appreciate your 284 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,330 Speaker 1: acute observation and commitment to representation of the microcosm of 285 00:15:24,340 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: the Singapore society, the beautiful heritage and cultures that we 286 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:28,710 Speaker 1: represent 287 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,370 Speaker 1: as a member of the minority community on two fronts 288 00:15:31,370 --> 00:15:33,990 Speaker 1: as a woman as well as um as a woman. 289 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,750 Speaker 1: I think that is absolutely key. Um it gives this 290 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,650 Speaker 1: understanding that there are other considerations to add to the 291 00:15:42,650 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: value of meritocracy and what it brings because let's face 292 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,260 Speaker 1: it meritocracy sometimes need leveling as well 293 00:15:50,530 --> 00:15:53,530 Speaker 1: and I thought what you said was really enlightened and 294 00:15:53,530 --> 00:15:56,710 Speaker 1: for people in positions of privilege to recognize that and 295 00:15:56,710 --> 00:16:00,310 Speaker 1: to transfer that privilege. That is the we forward in 296 00:16:00,310 --> 00:16:02,660 Speaker 1: terms of what kind of social compact in my opinion 297 00:16:02,660 --> 00:16:05,220 Speaker 1: that we want to build. So we're big on having 298 00:16:05,220 --> 00:16:08,930 Speaker 1: male allies and we're big on having representation. So that 299 00:16:08,930 --> 00:16:14,660 Speaker 1: was absolutely appreciated. Meritocracy was meant to be the leveling 300 00:16:14,670 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: was meant to be the tool that would help us. 301 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: If you study hard, you get a good job, you 302 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:19,710 Speaker 1: can 303 00:16:19,860 --> 00:16:23,220 Speaker 1: make life better and change your circumstances. Are we seeing 304 00:16:23,220 --> 00:16:26,100 Speaker 1: the world today isn't as black and white. It began 305 00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:28,570 Speaker 1: like that. In fact, I want to remind you that 306 00:16:28,580 --> 00:16:33,750 Speaker 1: the concept of meritocracy was first invented by a member 307 00:16:33,750 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: of the british Labor Party after the war when there 308 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: was an attempt to overthrow roll by aristocracy and the 309 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,470 Speaker 1: british people thought to replace meritocracy, We will have meritocracy. 310 00:16:47,180 --> 00:16:50,510 Speaker 1: But this person in the Labor Party were very prescient. 311 00:16:51,150 --> 00:16:55,500 Speaker 1: He said it, meritocracy is pursued to its extreme, 312 00:16:56,570 --> 00:17:00,500 Speaker 1: it becomes the dictatorship of talent and it's no good. 313 00:17:00,510 --> 00:17:05,940 Speaker 1: I ask everybody to read Michael Sandals. Very important book. 314 00:17:05,950 --> 00:17:07,570 Speaker 1: The tyranny of merit. 315 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,730 Speaker 1: I was quite shocked by the title. You know, but 316 00:17:10,730 --> 00:17:13,449 Speaker 1: after I read the book then I realized that yes, 317 00:17:13,450 --> 00:17:16,540 Speaker 1: it's true. You know, in life it is not just 318 00:17:16,540 --> 00:17:20,580 Speaker 1: cognitive intelligence is important. There are many other kinds of 319 00:17:20,590 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: intelligences and virtues and privilege to get privilege if you 320 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,460 Speaker 1: are in a privileged position, you make sure your Children 321 00:17:28,460 --> 00:17:33,219 Speaker 1: benefit from those privileges and they in turn between the 322 00:17:33,220 --> 00:17:35,740 Speaker 1: same privileges to the next generation. 323 00:17:36,060 --> 00:17:38,369 Speaker 1: So after a while there is a certain 324 00:17:38,810 --> 00:17:42,700 Speaker 1: aristocracy of. So it's almost like I think very often 325 00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:45,030 Speaker 1: we feel or at least my personal opinion. Sometimes I 326 00:17:45,030 --> 00:17:47,300 Speaker 1: feel that we have a lot of I. Q. But 327 00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:50,180 Speaker 1: we are sometimes lacking in the EQ. Because how do 328 00:17:50,180 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 1: we apply the knowledge that is just as important. So 329 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,300 Speaker 1: let's talk a bit about values because if we want 330 00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:59,030 Speaker 1: to move forward together as team Singapore, we've got to 331 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,890 Speaker 1: kind of agree on our identity and values. But there 332 00:18:02,890 --> 00:18:06,179 Speaker 1: are very big differences in how we think about race, religion, 333 00:18:06,180 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: sexual identity. 334 00:18:07,590 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: In fact we've seen the tension surrounding the repeal of 335 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,330 Speaker 1: 377 a. So do you think we can find a 336 00:18:13,330 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: common understanding? Are you guys optimistic or pessimistic about how 337 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,030 Speaker 1: all this will pan out Laura as the youngest here? 338 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,140 Speaker 1: Let me get your opinion first. 339 00:18:23,150 --> 00:18:26,570 Speaker 2: So personally, I came from a very liberal background in 340 00:18:26,570 --> 00:18:28,260 Speaker 2: my secondary school in J. C. 341 00:18:28,420 --> 00:18:30,570 Speaker 2: So we all had this idea that there's one right 342 00:18:30,570 --> 00:18:32,970 Speaker 2: view to adopt. And if you didn't adopt this view, 343 00:18:32,980 --> 00:18:35,830 Speaker 2: you were wrong, you'll be ostracized. And it was only 344 00:18:35,830 --> 00:18:38,290 Speaker 2: when I entered university that I realized 345 00:18:38,619 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 2: there are different people who have different perspectives and you 346 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,890 Speaker 2: can definitely try to argue for your point, but it's 347 00:18:44,890 --> 00:18:48,330 Speaker 2: not sustainable or realistic to expect that everyone has the 348 00:18:48,330 --> 00:18:51,669 Speaker 2: same perspective. And I believe this idea of finding a 349 00:18:51,670 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 2: compromise or a place where we can all agree to 350 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,740 Speaker 2: stay on is the idea that we're looking for, where 351 00:18:57,740 --> 00:19:01,420 Speaker 2: we want to form a social compact. I do believe though, 352 00:19:01,420 --> 00:19:04,590 Speaker 2: that there are some things that we cannot compromise on 353 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,810 Speaker 2: or at least maybe taking 377 years. An example, 354 00:19:08,140 --> 00:19:10,910 Speaker 2: If you look at the idea of a compromise, there's 355 00:19:10,910 --> 00:19:14,109 Speaker 2: a sense of give and take. But my issue with 356 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,530 Speaker 2: 377 is that I don't see the compromise. I feel 357 00:19:17,530 --> 00:19:21,020 Speaker 2: like allowing the status quo or allowing a law like 358 00:19:21,020 --> 00:19:24,490 Speaker 2: 3778 to remain in existence is not compromised in any 359 00:19:24,490 --> 00:19:27,310 Speaker 2: shape or form given especially that it's defunct and has 360 00:19:27,310 --> 00:19:28,180 Speaker 2: no legal weight. 361 00:19:28,660 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 2: And when people talk about, for instance, the symbolic value 362 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 2: of the law, I really wonder where the value is 363 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 2: like in that a law that criminalizes gay sex. Is 364 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 2: it really a crucial law that upholds the sanctity of 365 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,020 Speaker 2: the family unit in Singapore? What what does that say 366 00:19:43,030 --> 00:19:45,710 Speaker 2: about the strength of the family unit in Singapore? Or 367 00:19:45,710 --> 00:19:49,109 Speaker 2: is it merely a symbol of disapproval? Isn't it fundamentally 368 00:19:49,109 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 2: at odds with the Singapore government's perspective that we don't 369 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,310 Speaker 2: discriminate against LGBT people. 370 00:19:54,540 --> 00:19:57,129 Speaker 2: So perhaps to bring it back a bit, I acknowledge, 371 00:19:57,130 --> 00:19:59,300 Speaker 2: and I believe, from my personal experience that there has 372 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 2: to be a compromise somewhere. It's just that my personal 373 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 2: perspective is where we are is not compromised. 374 00:20:04,490 --> 00:20:07,210 Speaker 1: The argument is that this is what most people in 375 00:20:07,210 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 1: Singapore want. Does that sit with you, laura, 376 00:20:10,450 --> 00:20:13,140 Speaker 2: I hear that a lot. The idea that Singapore isn't ready, 377 00:20:13,140 --> 00:20:16,500 Speaker 2: what most people in Singapore wants, but if you think 378 00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:17,210 Speaker 2: about it, 379 00:20:17,450 --> 00:20:19,900 Speaker 2: is that really a consistent mindset that has been adopted 380 00:20:19,910 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: in other areas such as for instance with race for 381 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,430 Speaker 2: instance with socio economic class, you could argue that if 382 00:20:27,430 --> 00:20:30,340 Speaker 2: we always pander to the needs of the majority, then 383 00:20:30,340 --> 00:20:32,709 Speaker 2: we will never be able to provide for the minority. 384 00:20:32,710 --> 00:20:34,899 Speaker 2: And I think that's why the role of the Singapore 385 00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:36,669 Speaker 2: government mediating between 386 00:20:37,430 --> 00:20:39,710 Speaker 2: the ones and the needs of the majority and the 387 00:20:39,710 --> 00:20:42,740 Speaker 2: need to protect minority groups is important, 388 00:20:42,750 --> 00:20:44,390 Speaker 1: as I ask you because you work with a lot 389 00:20:44,390 --> 00:20:47,060 Speaker 1: of the minority communities, so if I come to you 390 00:20:47,060 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: and say it's for the greater 391 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:48,770 Speaker 2: good 392 00:20:49,420 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 2: and 393 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,100 Speaker 1: that's why we're not doing this policy for these people, 394 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:56,609 Speaker 1: for example, how would you respond to that? I think 395 00:20:56,609 --> 00:21:00,510 Speaker 1: first things first is there are a lot of expansion 396 00:21:00,510 --> 00:21:04,430 Speaker 1: to values as we currently know. It values including what 397 00:21:04,430 --> 00:21:08,950 Speaker 1: we refer to as merit and meritocracy. Next is the 398 00:21:08,950 --> 00:21:12,270 Speaker 1: kind of expectations from the social compact of the future 399 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: in that consultation is key 400 00:21:15,330 --> 00:21:19,020 Speaker 1: and sending out the message at A level where people 401 00:21:19,020 --> 00:21:22,570 Speaker 1: can understand is also key. So a lot of times 402 00:21:22,580 --> 00:21:26,270 Speaker 1: people who are involved in deep conversations on shaping the 403 00:21:26,270 --> 00:21:30,260 Speaker 1: social fabric are often people who have access to information 404 00:21:30,260 --> 00:21:32,980 Speaker 1: and knowledge, but how do you bring this knowledge down 405 00:21:32,980 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: to 406 00:21:33,660 --> 00:21:35,990 Speaker 1: the ground? I think that those are the kind of 407 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,830 Speaker 1: questions to think about. And for example, if you're talking 408 00:21:39,830 --> 00:21:43,310 Speaker 1: about how do you engage minority communities, so for a 409 00:21:43,310 --> 00:21:47,129 Speaker 1: start to recognize that the current leadership has taken pains 410 00:21:47,130 --> 00:21:52,189 Speaker 1: to increase consultation by various means, you know, various close 411 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: store means, open door means public forum reach and the like, 412 00:21:56,050 --> 00:22:00,149 Speaker 1: I think that this move is appreciated because people feel 413 00:22:00,150 --> 00:22:02,810 Speaker 1: like they listen to and people feel like they have 414 00:22:02,810 --> 00:22:06,690 Speaker 1: an avenue to share their thoughts. So that is certainly 415 00:22:06,690 --> 00:22:10,090 Speaker 1: one way to look at tackling very challenging situations like 416 00:22:10,090 --> 00:22:13,150 Speaker 1: these a lot of tough conversations that we need to have, 417 00:22:13,150 --> 00:22:16,530 Speaker 1: but you're saying sometimes the people who should be having 418 00:22:16,530 --> 00:22:20,330 Speaker 1: the conversation are not there at the conversation 419 00:22:20,570 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: in a way we have these sessions where we have 420 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,780 Speaker 1: feedback sessions, but you just mentioned that it's usually those 421 00:22:25,780 --> 00:22:28,719 Speaker 1: who have access to information that are there, should we 422 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,830 Speaker 1: not be converting the ones who are unreached? Those are 423 00:22:31,830 --> 00:22:34,470 Speaker 1: the ones who need to be there. Right, So exactly 424 00:22:34,470 --> 00:22:37,010 Speaker 1: what I was alluding to that I do see a 425 00:22:37,010 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: movement to include more people, but it boils down to 426 00:22:40,850 --> 00:22:44,899 Speaker 1: how do we make the message and the narrative simple 427 00:22:44,900 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: to understand to comprehend and to also share because a 428 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:49,590 Speaker 1: lot of times 429 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,670 Speaker 1: just like any policy right, it's about distilling it to 430 00:22:52,670 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: what it means to me, what's the impact to me 431 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,930 Speaker 1: and the people around me. So that's a kind of 432 00:22:57,940 --> 00:23:02,020 Speaker 1: clarification that will be helpful from the people who have 433 00:23:02,020 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: access to the people who may not have that much access. 434 00:23:06,180 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: But 11 thing for sure. And I think laura would 435 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: agree this concept of being apathetic is fast, diminishing. People 436 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,150 Speaker 1: are interested, people have access to information and people want 437 00:23:17,150 --> 00:23:20,850 Speaker 1: to be heard. People want to have a part of 438 00:23:20,859 --> 00:23:23,030 Speaker 1: making sure that they represented. 439 00:23:23,220 --> 00:23:25,070 Speaker 1: Yeah. If I was going to get your view on this, 440 00:23:25,070 --> 00:23:27,530 Speaker 1: we know you as quite a progressive liberal if I 441 00:23:27,530 --> 00:23:29,649 Speaker 1: may use that term. So I want to make a 442 00:23:29,650 --> 00:23:32,430 Speaker 1: different point, can I have your permission to do that? Sure. Sure. 443 00:23:32,430 --> 00:23:34,620 Speaker 1: Go ahead. I think one of the good things the 444 00:23:34,619 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 1: pandemic made is that it made people aware that there 445 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: are people in your society who do low value low 446 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:47,230 Speaker 1: paid jobs and they're very important to your security and 447 00:23:47,230 --> 00:23:49,830 Speaker 1: your welfare. You know, so we need to take better 448 00:23:49,830 --> 00:23:52,940 Speaker 1: care of these people, you know nurses for example 449 00:23:53,230 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: only now people realize what an important person to nurses. 450 00:23:57,609 --> 00:24:00,149 Speaker 1: But we should put our money where our mouth is. 451 00:24:00,670 --> 00:24:04,810 Speaker 1: We pay our nurses very poorly compared to Hong kong 452 00:24:04,810 --> 00:24:08,350 Speaker 1: and Australia. So I would say to the Singapore government 453 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,450 Speaker 1: if we really truly value our nurses, pay them better, 454 00:24:12,460 --> 00:24:15,860 Speaker 1: pay them better. But there are other people who during 455 00:24:15,859 --> 00:24:19,550 Speaker 1: the crisis proved themselves to be so important to us, 456 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: The people who keep Singapore clean. 457 00:24:22,550 --> 00:24:26,710 Speaker 1: The security guards keep places secure. The people who work 458 00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:30,030 Speaker 1: in hospital are not doctors and nurses, but other workers, 459 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: the people who keep the train running the busses going, 460 00:24:33,650 --> 00:24:37,790 Speaker 1: people who keep the supermarkets open, who deliver food to 461 00:24:37,790 --> 00:24:43,590 Speaker 1: our home. Singapore is a very snobbish and hierarchical society. 462 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to say that. And we are ruled by money. 463 00:24:47,290 --> 00:24:49,330 Speaker 1: So we look down on those who are poor, 464 00:24:50,170 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: we are also a meritocracy. We therefore look down on 465 00:24:52,570 --> 00:24:54,869 Speaker 1: people who are poorly educated 466 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,900 Speaker 1: and we become very snobbish. We look down on people 467 00:24:58,900 --> 00:25:02,170 Speaker 1: who kind of fought to stay in private housing. All 468 00:25:02,170 --> 00:25:04,820 Speaker 1: these are bad things. You know, To me, the pandemic 469 00:25:04,820 --> 00:25:08,540 Speaker 1: has brought home to many of us that people that 470 00:25:08,540 --> 00:25:11,020 Speaker 1: we look down on, we pay very poorly, 471 00:25:11,650 --> 00:25:16,419 Speaker 1: We disrespect essential to our security and welfare, 472 00:25:17,130 --> 00:25:20,910 Speaker 1: and we should have a new more respectful attitude towards them. 473 00:25:21,550 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: We should pay them better 474 00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:25,670 Speaker 1: because the truth is that 475 00:25:26,220 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: in Singapore is in the rest of the world, we 476 00:25:28,290 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: overpay the brain workers, we underpaid the what they call 477 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: the hard workers 478 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,100 Speaker 1: and we under pay the hand workers, you know, that 479 00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:41,149 Speaker 1: should be more justice for the hard workers and the 480 00:25:41,150 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: hand workers. But are we not a product of the 481 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: system in a way, Singapore is where it is today, 482 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,550 Speaker 1: largely because of our economic growth and that's never off 483 00:25:50,550 --> 00:25:53,139 Speaker 1: the table. No, no, I'm sorry. It doesn't have to 484 00:25:53,140 --> 00:25:55,949 Speaker 1: be this way, you know, I recall a very important 485 00:25:55,950 --> 00:26:00,139 Speaker 1: conversation between Prime Minister lee kuan Yew, and one of 486 00:26:00,140 --> 00:26:03,230 Speaker 1: the first PRC ambassador to Singapore 487 00:26:03,850 --> 00:26:07,909 Speaker 1: in this conversation about values. What kind of a society 488 00:26:07,910 --> 00:26:08,830 Speaker 1: you want to build? 489 00:26:09,550 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: The chinese ambassador? Asked. Mr lee kuan, yew. So what 490 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,630 Speaker 1: kind of Singapore are you trying to build? And when 491 00:26:15,630 --> 00:26:18,570 Speaker 1: you said in terms of income distribution, I'm trying to 492 00:26:18,570 --> 00:26:23,179 Speaker 1: build a Singapore that shaped like an olive, very few 493 00:26:23,180 --> 00:26:27,210 Speaker 1: poor people and very few super rich people, but a 494 00:26:27,210 --> 00:26:30,500 Speaker 1: very large middle class. Well, I'm sorry, we missed that. 495 00:26:30,510 --> 00:26:35,350 Speaker 1: You know, when I recently plotted the income profile of Singapore, 496 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,530 Speaker 1: it doesn't look like olive, it looks like a pear. 497 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 1: So is that what we want? 498 00:26:40,970 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: I don't think so. So it is within our hands, 499 00:26:44,170 --> 00:26:49,140 Speaker 1: it is not inevitable consequence of capitalism. There are countries, 500 00:26:49,140 --> 00:26:53,460 Speaker 1: for example, in Scandinavia which are capitalists or Switzerland, which 501 00:26:53,460 --> 00:26:57,070 Speaker 1: are capitalists far more equal than we are. And it 502 00:26:57,070 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: doesn't detract from the competitiveness. If you look at the 503 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,580 Speaker 1: world economic forum of the rankings of competitive countries, these 504 00:27:05,590 --> 00:27:09,369 Speaker 1: more egalitarian society rank very high in the 505 00:27:09,940 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: so there's no necessary contradiction between more equal and less competitive, 506 00:27:15,570 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: which is what the singaporean thing, you know. 507 00:27:18,030 --> 00:27:20,510 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I was coming to that, it's about what 508 00:27:20,510 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: we think. It almost sounds like we need a fundamental 509 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,490 Speaker 1: mindset shift 510 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,100 Speaker 1: because right now, the way we approach this is usually Yeah, 511 00:27:29,109 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: let me get the highest paying job and that's what 512 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,810 Speaker 1: we almost push our kids to do, which is why 513 00:27:33,810 --> 00:27:36,510 Speaker 1: it's always been go be a doctor lawyer, that kind 514 00:27:36,510 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: of stuff. Do we need to change that mindset? The 515 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,970 Speaker 1: world has changed the jobs have changed the gig economy 516 00:27:41,970 --> 00:27:45,510 Speaker 1: is very much a new norm, even job interviews, I'm 517 00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:47,750 Speaker 1: sure when laura goes to a new company to ask 518 00:27:47,750 --> 00:27:52,290 Speaker 1: them about work life balance and sustainability, which sometimes for 519 00:27:52,290 --> 00:27:54,570 Speaker 1: the older generation seems like why are you talking about this? 520 00:27:54,570 --> 00:27:55,190 Speaker 1: You know, 521 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,140 Speaker 1: just get your foot in the door if you want 522 00:27:57,140 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: this job. Right, so do we have to look at 523 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,690 Speaker 1: it differently? How do you feel about that? I actually 524 00:28:02,690 --> 00:28:06,410 Speaker 1: think that looking differently has already begun a lot of gen, 525 00:28:06,410 --> 00:28:11,290 Speaker 1: Zs are now already in managerial positions and the workforce 526 00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: is searching for meaning and purpose beyond what pays the bills. 527 00:28:16,450 --> 00:28:19,030 Speaker 1: That is also of course, the results of coming from 528 00:28:19,030 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: more comfortable and affluent families having possibly crossed one class 529 00:28:23,770 --> 00:28:24,949 Speaker 1: in one generation 530 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,740 Speaker 1: and a lot more times now we are hearing like, 531 00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:32,540 Speaker 1: like steve said earlier, the prospective candidate interviewing the boss, 532 00:28:32,550 --> 00:28:36,010 Speaker 1: asking about what kind of CSR efforts do you do, 533 00:28:36,020 --> 00:28:39,100 Speaker 1: What kind of commitments to diversity do you make? And 534 00:28:39,100 --> 00:28:42,570 Speaker 1: these are sort of the new values and expectations that 535 00:28:42,570 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: has begun to take root in the future workforce. And 536 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:47,470 Speaker 1: I think that's the way 537 00:28:47,490 --> 00:28:51,500 Speaker 1: go? I think the considerations are important so that we 538 00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:55,810 Speaker 1: are varied in our thoughts. We have very different representations 539 00:28:55,820 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: and different priorities and really expanding the narrative of success, 540 00:29:00,010 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: the narrative of merit and at the same time also 541 00:29:03,810 --> 00:29:07,090 Speaker 1: transferring that privilege. So I am hopeful for that. I'm 542 00:29:07,090 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: very hopeful for that because people are more committed. Is 543 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,690 Speaker 1: it fast enough? That's a good question. 544 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: Is it fast enough? Is it enough or will we, 545 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,290 Speaker 1: how long will it take as we work towards building 546 00:29:18,290 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: a new Singapore? We want to look ahead. I mean, 547 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,940 Speaker 1: we're great long term planners. When will we see these 548 00:29:23,940 --> 00:29:26,310 Speaker 1: changes become a reality? 549 00:29:30,510 --> 00:29:36,270 Speaker 1: Nobody can answer that, but I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic. Let 550 00:29:36,270 --> 00:29:37,860 Speaker 1: me put it this way. Are we, are we ready 551 00:29:37,860 --> 00:29:41,250 Speaker 1: to embrace even celebrate failure? 552 00:29:41,780 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: Are we a culture that is ready for that? Well, 553 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: we have to change, you know, because if you look 554 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,370 Speaker 1: at the most successful economy in the world, the american economy, 555 00:29:50,380 --> 00:29:53,990 Speaker 1: you ask yourself, why are they so successful? One of 556 00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:57,980 Speaker 1: the reason is that there is a general culture of 557 00:29:57,990 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: accepting honest failure. If you fail, you're not stigmatized as 558 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: you're in Singapore. No, your failed in Singapore. You're finished. 559 00:30:05,610 --> 00:30:08,510 Speaker 1: But in America if it's an honest failure, 560 00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: people don't stigmatize you. They expect you to get up 561 00:30:12,530 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: and try again. Try until you succeed. That's the culture 562 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,300 Speaker 1: we want, you know, did you ever feel that laura 563 00:30:19,310 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: was there a fear of failure? 564 00:30:20,930 --> 00:30:24,690 Speaker 2: I personally feel that it's not an issue about embracing 565 00:30:24,690 --> 00:30:27,660 Speaker 2: or the fear of failure, but more of redefining what 566 00:30:27,660 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 2: it means to succeed in society. 567 00:30:29,940 --> 00:30:32,110 Speaker 2: So I think it's not a case of if you 568 00:30:32,110 --> 00:30:34,470 Speaker 2: don't get into a good job, you don't get a 569 00:30:34,470 --> 00:30:36,719 Speaker 2: high paying job, you are a failure. But now the 570 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 2: question that people are asking is put aside the high 571 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 2: paying job, you know, most jobs that my peers will 572 00:30:43,770 --> 00:30:44,970 Speaker 2: get when they enter in 573 00:30:44,990 --> 00:30:47,940 Speaker 2: to the market will pay them a decent pay. So 574 00:30:47,950 --> 00:30:49,930 Speaker 2: the question for them is not, how much am I 575 00:30:49,930 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 2: going to get paid, but what else can I do? 576 00:30:52,610 --> 00:30:56,090 Speaker 2: For instance, if we go and interview their questions, like, 577 00:30:56,100 --> 00:30:57,930 Speaker 2: will you give me support if I want to go 578 00:30:57,930 --> 00:31:00,050 Speaker 2: out and do pro bono for the community 579 00:31:00,230 --> 00:31:04,220 Speaker 2: or what kind of support do you give to increase 580 00:31:04,220 --> 00:31:08,300 Speaker 2: or embrace diversity within your company? Our definition of success 581 00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:10,820 Speaker 2: for not only the employee, but also the employer has changed, 582 00:31:10,820 --> 00:31:13,510 Speaker 2: We no longer see the employer that pays the most 583 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 2: as the most successful employer, like basically we're willing to 584 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 2: accept employers that pay less as long as they are 585 00:31:20,050 --> 00:31:22,670 Speaker 2: willing to support us on different friends. And 586 00:31:22,820 --> 00:31:24,490 Speaker 2: and I personally feel that there is a change that 587 00:31:24,490 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 2: is very hopeful to me and I really look forward 588 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,210 Speaker 2: to entering a workforce that values different things on different 589 00:31:31,210 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: levels and not just looking at the money or how 590 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,370 Speaker 2: much money you can earn. Thank 591 00:31:36,370 --> 00:31:40,140 Speaker 1: you Laura, that's that's excellent. You and your generation is 592 00:31:40,140 --> 00:31:42,500 Speaker 1: the reason why I'm optimistic. 593 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,630 Speaker 1: I was about to say that too, but anecdotally, I 594 00:31:45,630 --> 00:31:47,670 Speaker 1: don't think I'm alone when I say this while we 595 00:31:47,670 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: may still be a little afraid of failure. But our 596 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: attitude to mistakes are changing for more forgiving and we 597 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,980 Speaker 1: understand that mistakes actually can be a good learning point 598 00:31:57,130 --> 00:32:00,010 Speaker 1: next to that is what is success, right? What matters 599 00:32:00,010 --> 00:32:03,340 Speaker 1: to me? So we recently did a survey among muslim 600 00:32:03,340 --> 00:32:06,730 Speaker 1: women to discover that faith and family is key. So 601 00:32:06,730 --> 00:32:09,780 Speaker 1: family plays a large part in terms of the definition 602 00:32:09,780 --> 00:32:13,020 Speaker 1: of success or what contributes to the feeling of success 603 00:32:13,030 --> 00:32:17,550 Speaker 1: beyond professional as well as economical success. It's also a 604 00:32:17,550 --> 00:32:18,870 Speaker 1: kind of fulfillment that's current 605 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,870 Speaker 1: being sought. And I think that's encouraging given the shrinking 606 00:32:21,870 --> 00:32:25,850 Speaker 1: family sizes and how the sanctity of family or having 607 00:32:25,850 --> 00:32:28,780 Speaker 1: strong family units is something that we're always keen to 608 00:32:28,780 --> 00:32:32,190 Speaker 1: work on. That's very encouraging to note. And even a 609 00:32:32,190 --> 00:32:36,430 Speaker 1: survey by National Youth Council recently had youth reflecting as 610 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: family being very important to them and I thought that 611 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,410 Speaker 1: was very, very uplifting. Thank you. This is very encouraging 612 00:32:43,410 --> 00:32:45,710 Speaker 1: to hear and I think, you know especially what laura 613 00:32:45,710 --> 00:32:46,420 Speaker 1: has just said 614 00:32:46,740 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: as we begin to wrap up this conversation. One big 615 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: question I've been thinking is in the past Singapore worked 616 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: very well because we all have the same mindset, we 617 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: were thinking and wanting to build the country in a 618 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: certain way, but now it sounds like it's no longer 619 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,100 Speaker 1: the same. Same, same, same, but different 620 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,100 Speaker 1: because with such diversity, there's so many different thoughts and 621 00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:10,730 Speaker 1: opinions on things. The government can come in and say, 622 00:33:10,730 --> 00:33:12,350 Speaker 1: I think that's the best way. Let's all just do 623 00:33:12,350 --> 00:33:14,460 Speaker 1: this and everyone does it along the way. There are 624 00:33:14,460 --> 00:33:17,590 Speaker 1: many other challenges. So what would you say to that? 625 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: Can we build this future? Singapore with a kind of same, same, 626 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: but different attitude? Will it be more challenging? And, you know, 627 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,830 Speaker 1: what are some of the things you would wish to 628 00:33:28,830 --> 00:33:32,330 Speaker 1: see happening in this next stage of our future? 629 00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:35,900 Speaker 2: I think in the past, the mindset was we all 630 00:33:35,900 --> 00:33:38,750 Speaker 2: need to make sure that Singapore succeeds. Going back to 631 00:33:38,750 --> 00:33:40,770 Speaker 2: one of the things we discussed earlier in the podcast 632 00:33:40,770 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 2: about Singaporeans wanting to do good, we should have faith 633 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,860 Speaker 2: in the fact that Singaporeans do want the country to 634 00:33:46,860 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 2: succeed in other ways, not just in terms of our GDP, 635 00:33:49,930 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 2: we should have faith in the fact that Singaporeans do 636 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,340 Speaker 2: want the community to drive. I think I can safely 637 00:33:55,340 --> 00:33:58,330 Speaker 2: say that the majority of Singaporeans are not actively racist. 638 00:33:58,340 --> 00:34:01,100 Speaker 2: We don't want our country to split into different factions 639 00:34:01,100 --> 00:34:01,450 Speaker 2: and 640 00:34:01,690 --> 00:34:04,690 Speaker 2: it's this belief that we want to do good, that 641 00:34:04,690 --> 00:34:07,180 Speaker 2: will propel us in the future, and I think that 642 00:34:07,180 --> 00:34:08,010 Speaker 2: when I look 643 00:34:08,540 --> 00:34:11,630 Speaker 2: a Singapore that I want in the future, it's not 644 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,020 Speaker 2: the Singapore government anymore coming in to say that this 645 00:34:14,020 --> 00:34:16,129 Speaker 2: is our goal and this is our target and this 646 00:34:16,130 --> 00:34:17,850 Speaker 2: is how we should be achieving it. But now it 647 00:34:17,850 --> 00:34:20,030 Speaker 2: should be more of a ground up movement. I think 648 00:34:20,030 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 2: it's a perfectly natural transition progression 649 00:34:23,030 --> 00:34:26,750 Speaker 2: as we have progressed as a country for individual Singaporeans 650 00:34:26,750 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: to start to take up responsibility for the progress of 651 00:34:30,010 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 2: our country and for the society to get better and 652 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,580 Speaker 2: more inclusive for different diverse groups. So I'm actually quite 653 00:34:36,580 --> 00:34:39,469 Speaker 2: hopeful and I'm also very hopeful to be part of 654 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,930 Speaker 2: the generations that will help to push this forward. 655 00:34:41,940 --> 00:34:45,930 Speaker 1: My generation is absolutely grateful to the pioneer generation and 656 00:34:45,930 --> 00:34:50,700 Speaker 1: the generation for building Singapore with all of their hard work. 657 00:34:50,710 --> 00:34:53,069 Speaker 1: It seems like I said earlier, it's now about the 658 00:34:53,070 --> 00:34:57,980 Speaker 1: hard work things where we build compassion into Singapore. 659 00:34:58,219 --> 00:35:00,540 Speaker 1: And the other thing is, we've come to a phase 660 00:35:00,540 --> 00:35:05,690 Speaker 1: where Singaporeans want to build Singapore together. There's an appreciation 661 00:35:05,690 --> 00:35:10,730 Speaker 1: for consultation versus just direction, because we've nurtured a generation 662 00:35:10,739 --> 00:35:15,020 Speaker 1: that is intelligent, that is resourceful and therefore wants to 663 00:35:15,020 --> 00:35:18,870 Speaker 1: make a difference. It's all about finding our place in 664 00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:22,550 Speaker 1: the map and also understanding that sometimes maps can be 665 00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:23,270 Speaker 1: redrawn 666 00:35:23,489 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: because things change. I think that's the kind of optimism 667 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,280 Speaker 1: and the kind of social compact that we're looking at 668 00:35:29,290 --> 00:35:32,890 Speaker 1: in the future, I belong, I guess to the pioneering generation, 669 00:35:32,900 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: well then, thank you very much 670 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,259 Speaker 1: when I look back on the last eight years, I 671 00:35:40,260 --> 00:35:44,150 Speaker 1: couldn't have imagined when I was a child, the wonderful 672 00:35:44,150 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: state of affairs that we have in Singapore. You know, 673 00:35:47,090 --> 00:35:55,010 Speaker 1: the level of development, prosperity, education, welfare to my generation 674 00:35:55,010 --> 00:35:57,210 Speaker 1: is unbelievable. It's a very you know, 675 00:35:57,830 --> 00:36:03,240 Speaker 1: the question is going forward will our next generation be 676 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,730 Speaker 1: able to meet the new challenges of the new world? 677 00:36:06,739 --> 00:36:11,530 Speaker 1: Every generation faces a different set of challenges. And if 678 00:36:11,540 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: people like Lauren Hacienda, they give me hope and confident 679 00:36:15,810 --> 00:36:18,710 Speaker 1: that the next generation is up to the task, they 680 00:36:18,710 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 1: will make Singapore even more prosperous, more secure, most peaceful, 681 00:36:23,210 --> 00:36:24,460 Speaker 1: more harmonious 682 00:36:24,710 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: and more inclusive. So I say thank laura, thank linda, 683 00:36:28,850 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: you are the reason why I remain optimistic about Singapore future. 684 00:36:33,010 --> 00:36:36,589 Speaker 1: Thank you all so much. It's wonderful to hear to 685 00:36:36,590 --> 00:36:39,090 Speaker 1: all our listeners. Thank you for listening. I think my 686 00:36:39,090 --> 00:36:41,280 Speaker 1: own take away from this discussion is that it is true, 687 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 1: there's so much work to be done, but it's a 688 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,320 Speaker 1: never ending story. And I think the fact is we 689 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,260 Speaker 1: need to now be brave enough to talk about the 690 00:36:48,260 --> 00:36:50,850 Speaker 1: issues that need to be talked about because things will 691 00:36:50,850 --> 00:36:52,820 Speaker 1: keep on evolving and if we 692 00:36:53,010 --> 00:36:55,870 Speaker 1: cannot keep open those lines of communication and have that 693 00:36:55,870 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: conversation going, then we cannot continue to build that country 694 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:00,850 Speaker 1: what we want together because so much of it is 695 00:37:00,850 --> 00:37:03,109 Speaker 1: all based on the relationships we have with each other. 696 00:37:04,030 --> 00:37:05,540 Speaker 1: And on that note, I want to say thanks so 697 00:37:05,540 --> 00:37:07,730 Speaker 1: much to my guests and to all of you for 698 00:37:07,730 --> 00:37:10,850 Speaker 1: listening in. If you have any comments or feedback about 699 00:37:10,850 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 1: this episode, leave us a review or write to us 700 00:37:13,730 --> 00:37:17,340 Speaker 1: at c n a podcast at dot com dot SG. 701 00:37:17,350 --> 00:37:20,870 Speaker 1: The team behind this podcast is Audrey one, Jacqueline, chan, 702 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,030 Speaker 1: Danieli and Christina robert, and I'm Stephen signing off.