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Speaker 1: This is a C. N. A. Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome. I'm sure you've heard the expression there

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Speaker 1: are two sides to every story. But on this episode

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Speaker 1: of CNN correspondent, you're going to hear a story where

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Speaker 1: there are three. It involves a maverick politician, a threat

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Speaker 1: to territorial integrity, a push for democracy, the world's two

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Speaker 1: biggest superpowers and an island caught in the middle.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about the United states of America China and Taiwan.

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Speaker 1: To help tell this story. You'll be hearing from CNN's

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Speaker 1: correspondents on the ground. But first, here's what's caused this

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Speaker 1: latest flare up.

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Speaker 2: Us House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has arrived in Taiwan setting

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Speaker 2: the stage for a showdown with China Beijing quick to

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Speaker 2: condemn her trip saying it seriously damages peace and stability

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Speaker 2: in the Taiwan strait. But MS Pelosi sending a clear

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Speaker 2: message to China that her visit honors America's unwavering commitment

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Speaker 2: to support Taiwan's democracy.

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Speaker 1: Why did nancy Pelosi make this trip? How has China responded.

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Speaker 1: What does Taiwan want out of it? And what are

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Speaker 1: the narratives that each of them will be pushing following

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Speaker 1: the trip

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Speaker 1: to help you understand these head scratches? I'm joined by

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Speaker 1: CNN's correspondents in Washington. Nick harper

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Speaker 1: Beijing Olivia's young steve and Taipei victoria, jen hi, good

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Speaker 1: to be here Nick. Let's start with the protagonist of

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Speaker 1: this story, Nancy Pelosi with tensions between the us and

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Speaker 1: china at a seemingly all time high across a multitude

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Speaker 1: of arenas. Why did the House Speaker make this trip

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Speaker 1: to Taiwan and why did it cause such a split

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Speaker 1: in Washington?

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Speaker 1: Very simply steve. I think she went because she wanted to.

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Speaker 1: It has been a long held ambition of nancy Pelosi.

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Speaker 1: She perhaps more than any other recent US politician has

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Speaker 1: consistently been critical of china. And on the flip side

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Speaker 1: consistently supportive of Taiwan the way that she sees it

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Speaker 1: going to Taiwan

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Speaker 1: during her career, it is the feather in the cap.

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Speaker 1: It's the capstone of her career. She is 82 years

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Speaker 1: old and she's likely to lose her position as speaker

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Speaker 1: of the House in november's midterm election. So really this

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Speaker 1: was her moment to go. And remember she had planned

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Speaker 1: to make this trip earlier in the year back in

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Speaker 1: april but then got Covid and had to delay the

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Speaker 1: trip officially. Of course she's saying

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Speaker 1: the reason she went was all about showing support for Taiwan.

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Speaker 1: It's about reaffirming that U. S. Commitment to the island

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Speaker 1: and it's about upholding the american ideal as represented in

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Speaker 1: Taiwan of democracy. But the White House knows that this

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Speaker 1: was not part of a unified plan dreamt up by

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Speaker 1: President biden to stand up to china simply. But she

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Speaker 1: didn't have the President's backing to go. It was plain

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Speaker 1: and simple, all about nancy Pelosi

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Speaker 1: doing what she wanted to do. And it has been

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Speaker 1: reported here that officials in the White House were fuming

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Speaker 1: that they had spent several weeks trying behind the scenes

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Speaker 1: to dissuade her from glowing. So not a pre planned

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Speaker 1: biden offensive on Beijing and I think that's why we've

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Speaker 1: seen the White House especially in the lead up to

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Speaker 1: the trip saying that this was not about seeking any

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Speaker 1: escalation trying to minimize the tension that this trip ended

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Speaker 1: up causing

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Speaker 1: and Olivia throughout the build up to Pelosi's visit. China.

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Speaker 1: Humanly opposed it saying the U. S. Was playing with

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Speaker 1: fire now that it's happened. What are they saying? And

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Speaker 1: importantly what are they doing?

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Speaker 1: Well I think the signal from china is very clear

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Speaker 1: that even though MS Pelosi has now left Taiwan the

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Speaker 1: ripple effects of this controversial visit are still going to

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Speaker 1: be felt regardless of what the U. S. Has said.

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Speaker 1: As Nick has mentioned that about its policy towards Taiwan

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Speaker 1: being unchanged or this trip being about supporting democracy. China

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Speaker 1: sees this trip bottom line as provocation and infringement of

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Speaker 1: its sovereignty and emboldening

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Speaker 1: the Taiwan independence forces. As it has put it, China

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Speaker 1: says that this has had a severe impact on the

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Speaker 1: political foundation of china US relations based on the one

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Speaker 1: china policy and they have certainly been strong words. We

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Speaker 1: heard the chinese foreign minister wang e calling the visit

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Speaker 1: a farce saying that those who offend china will be

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Speaker 1: punished and china has said that it will take countermeasures

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Speaker 1: which it says are justified they will be strong residues

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Speaker 1: and we have already seen them make a series of

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Speaker 1: moves and china announced the start of military drills on

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Speaker 1: the night. MS Pelosi arrived in Taiwan with more live

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Speaker 1: fire exercises including missile test set for six areas around Taiwan.

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Speaker 1: From thursday to sunday military drills near Taiwan, we have

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Speaker 1: to know that's common for the chinese military, but this

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Speaker 1: is different. This

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Speaker 1: Is unprecedented. We're talking about the Chinese military and circling

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Speaker 1: the Taiwan island, effectively creating a blockade of sorts. This

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Speaker 1: is a larger scale compared to the 1996 Taiwan straits

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Speaker 1: crisis operating really close to Taiwan's coast within 20 km.

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Speaker 1: And the suggestion is that we could see missiles flying

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Speaker 1: over Taiwan. The signal, according to observers quoted in Chinese

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Speaker 1: media is

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Speaker 1: that china could effectively blockade Taiwan if it wanted to

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Speaker 1: and take it by force if it needed to and

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Speaker 1: not just on the military front. We've also seen economic

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Speaker 1: sessions being put in place china halting its exports of

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Speaker 1: natural sand, which is important for construction and production of

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Speaker 1: chips as well as the imports of some fruits and fish.

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Speaker 1: So a lot happening And very likely we will see

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Speaker 1: more to come

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Speaker 1: and victoria Taiwan no stranger to being caught in the

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Speaker 1: middle like this. What was it hoping to achieve by

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Speaker 1: hosting Miss Pelosi's visit?

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Speaker 1: Well it's hoping to leverage on stronger u. S. Support

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Speaker 1: to deter chinese military threat against the island, especially now

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Speaker 1: that cross strait relations are at their lowest point. It's

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Speaker 1: a sharp contrast to the my Angel administration of kuomintang

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Speaker 1: cross strait ties were at their peak when chinese President

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Speaker 1: xi Jinping and my angel met in 2015 in Singapore.

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Speaker 1: But relations went south after President Taiwan from the Pro

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Speaker 1: Independence Democratic Progressive Party came to power in 2016.

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Speaker 1: Her refusal to accept the one china principle infuriated Beijing,

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Speaker 1: which cut off all official exchanges with Taiwan and using

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Speaker 1: Hong kong's anti government protests as an example. President High

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Speaker 1: secured a second term by leveraging on the threat of

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Speaker 1: one country two systems model. She said reunification with the

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Speaker 1: mainland under the model would destroy the

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Speaker 1: violence democracy. So every time china makes a retaliatory move

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Speaker 1: against Taiwan tie will capitalize on it to drum up

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Speaker 1: the china threat in order to legitimize the DPP s rule.

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Speaker 1: Let's not forget that there is a local election in

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Speaker 1: november and Pelosi's visit provides a great opportunity for ty

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Speaker 1: to repeat the trick to win the vote.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's something to keep in mind, not just in

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Speaker 1: Taipei but in Washington as well. We'll get to that

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Speaker 1: with nick a bit later. Perhaps you've each heard each

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Speaker 1: other's answers and you know all the background and you've

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Speaker 1: seen Pelosi's visit play out as we all have. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to ask each of you how Pelosi's trip is

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Speaker 1: being spun in the corridors of power in Washington, Beijing

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Speaker 1: and Taipei nick

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Speaker 1: well here in Washington. If you're on team Pelosi, I

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Speaker 1: mean this is a big win and that's how they're

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Speaker 1: spinning it. And I think when the dust settles. And

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Speaker 1: if there's no major provocation or retaliation from Beijing then

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Speaker 1: the biden administration will probably spin it as a win

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Speaker 1: as well. They just haven't really done so yet because

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Speaker 1: they weren't fully supportive of the trip in the first place.

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Speaker 1: And I think it has shown though that America is

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Speaker 1: not afraid to stand up to china, it has shown

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Speaker 1: that America doesn't back down or capitulate just because Beijing

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Speaker 1: says that it should. And again,

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Speaker 1: America has shown that it supports Taiwan now if you're

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Speaker 1: a republican and I think this is rather surprising here.

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Speaker 1: Republicans have been spinning this as a win for a

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Speaker 1: democrat who visited the island. They've agreed that Pelosi should

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Speaker 1: have gone. We had 26 republican senators writing this public

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Speaker 1: letter supporting the visit, something that you wouldn't normally see.

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Speaker 1: So republicans see it as a win. But I think

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Speaker 1: of course if this trip ends up being

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Speaker 1: the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back if it

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Speaker 1: completely destroys relations with china or it leads to an

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Speaker 1: invasion like Olivia was talking about just now, then I

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Speaker 1: think democrats and republicans will rethink their answer and suddenly

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Speaker 1: the president and the republicans, they have a very easy

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Speaker 1: scapegoat in the form of nancy. Pelosi to blame for

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Speaker 1: killing off relations between Washington and Beijing. So at the

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Speaker 1: moment Pelosi yes, she's the winner but she could easily

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Speaker 1: become the loser in this whole scenario

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Speaker 1: and Olivia for china's point of view, they were very

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Speaker 1: adamant that they didn't want this to go ahead and

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Speaker 1: that they would do whatever they could to sort of

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Speaker 1: stop it. Or what are they saying now that it's happened?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think China's official diplomatic answer would be that

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Speaker 1: no one wins because the trip is seen as infringing

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Speaker 1: on China's sovereignty is damaged. China us ties cross strait

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Speaker 1: tensions are at its highest in decades. At the same

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Speaker 1: time though, we have to note that China is saying

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Speaker 1: that it will not be bullied and it can stand

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Speaker 1: up to the U. S. So if we were to

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Speaker 1: talk about crisis being an opportunity, some observers have interestingly

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Speaker 1: told me that perhaps the biggest winner in this, maybe

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Speaker 1: chinese president xi Jinping

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Speaker 1: this coming ahead of the twice a decade party Congress

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Speaker 1: in the fall where he's more than likely to be

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Speaker 1: granted an unprecedented third term in office and perhaps has

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Speaker 1: been an opportunity for him to really show his leadership

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Speaker 1: in handling this superpower relationship and rivalry. Very mindful that

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Speaker 1: China cannot appear weak. If you recall ahead of MS.

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Speaker 1: Pelosi speculated visit, he had that phone call with his

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Speaker 1: US counterpart, joe biden, in which he made very clear

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Speaker 1: and the chinese Foreign Ministry readout. It said that Mr

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Speaker 1: C told Mr biden that anyone who plays with fire

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Speaker 1: over Taiwan will perish by it. But also analysts are

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Speaker 1: telling me that Mr. C would be very mindful of

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Speaker 1: not taking things too far because a war would not

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Speaker 1: serve the interest of china. That would risk the stability

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Speaker 1: in the country, it will not serve the national interest.

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Speaker 1: So some might say it's a win in terms of

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Speaker 1: opportunity for presidency. But the report card that's a little

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Speaker 1: bit more complicated

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Speaker 1: and victoria for domestic politics and saying one in particular,

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Speaker 1: how is she spinning this? Well, I'm afraid there's no

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Speaker 1: real winners here. President tie and her party might gain

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Speaker 1: a strong foothold in local politics. But Taiwan's businesses are

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Speaker 1: suffering as Olivia has mentioned that china began to impose

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Speaker 1: trade sanctions against the island from monday. First it banned

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Speaker 1: over 100 food imports from Taiwan. And then on Wednesday

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Speaker 1: it suspended Taiwan's imports of citrusy

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Speaker 1: Fruits and two types of fish. Now analysts expect that

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Speaker 1: more trade sanctions will be imposed after Pelosi's visit. And

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Speaker 1: this can really hurt Taiwan's economy. Since China is Taiwan's

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Speaker 1: biggest market, accounting for more than 40% of the island's

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Speaker 1: total exports. And not to mention that all the Taiwanese

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Speaker 1: businesses in China which could also face retaliatory actions from Beijing.

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Speaker 1: So as more businesses suffer, it would pose a challenge

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Speaker 1: to the thai administration. Alright, thanks guys. Now, still ahead.

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Speaker 1: On CNN correspondent, you'll hear where this story is likely

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Speaker 1: to go from here and you'll get a sense of

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Speaker 1: what people in the US china and Taiwan. Think about

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Speaker 1: the political back and forth between the two superpowers over Taiwan.

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Speaker 1: Mhm

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Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Sarah al Khaldi and I'm the

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Speaker 1: host of a new podcast called Money Talks. Yes, we

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Speaker 1: will be talking about Money but more than that, we'll

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Speaker 1: how money is the thread running through it all. So

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Speaker 1: look out for our episodes wherever you get your podcasts,

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Speaker 1: you're with me steve lie on CNN correspondent along with

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Speaker 1: Nick harper, Olivia song and victoria gen. Next for you

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Speaker 1: to consider in this three sided story is how Pelosi's

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Speaker 1: visit is being perceived and where it's headed next. And

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Speaker 1: don't forget to keep in your mind that these events

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Speaker 1: are unfolding with the battle for democracy, sovereignty and self

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Speaker 1: determination looming in the background.

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Speaker 1: But first take a listen to the thoughts of residents

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Speaker 1: we've been speaking to in Beijing and Taiwan, respectively. In

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Speaker 1: the build up to the house speaker's visit first you'll

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Speaker 1: hear from a 38 year old Beijing resident that works

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Speaker 1: in the motor industry and then from a 70 year

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Speaker 1: old retired resident in Taipei,

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Speaker 1: no matter how you look at this, they're really just

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Speaker 1: using it as a gimmick right now, if this actually happens,

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Speaker 1: our country would oppose it or whatever. But if the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Will really do it or not. This also remains an unknown.

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Speaker 1: I think she's coming to Taiwan for her elections.

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Speaker 1: She wants to gain attention and express that she stands

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Speaker 1: on the side of democracy and freedom to oppose the

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Speaker 1: chinese Communist Party but the main purpose is to fight

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Speaker 1: against china.

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Speaker 1: What do you think? A good understanding of the politics

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Speaker 1: at play and a healthy dose of cynicism as well.

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Speaker 1: Eyebrows raised for sure

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Speaker 1: victoria I'll come to you first for this next round

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Speaker 1: of questions. How has this story played out in Taiwan

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Speaker 1: and what is the sense you get from the ground

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Speaker 1: as to the importance of these events for the island?

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Speaker 1: There has been an unprecedented level of media frenzy over

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Speaker 1: Pelosi's visit. All the media were waiting at the airport

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Speaker 1: before her arrival and afterwards they were stalking her at

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Speaker 1: her hotel and following her everywhere and reporting on her

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Speaker 1: every move, even the dress she was worrying had become

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Speaker 1: a story for some media. I'm just surprised that they

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Speaker 1: didn't report on what she had for breakfast

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Speaker 1: Now after all she is the highest ranking US official

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Speaker 1: to visit Taiwan in 25 years. So it's definitely the

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Speaker 1: biggest story here. While the DPP government certainly score a

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Speaker 1: victory over her visit. Public opinions are rather divided. Of

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Speaker 1: of course some welcome the visit and believe that her

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Speaker 1: visit has brought the Taiwan US relations to a whole

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Speaker 1: new level but there are those who thought the visit

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Speaker 1: was unnecessary. I spoke to some young Taiwanese who fear

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Speaker 1: her visit could trigger military confrontation and they say that

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Speaker 1: they're not ready for war. Especially the conscription here is

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Speaker 1: only four months which many say is not sufficient to

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Speaker 1: counter a chinese attack

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Speaker 1: and Olivia for Beijing. Us action in Taiwan is seen

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Speaker 1: as a threat to its sovereignty and one that it

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Speaker 1: takes with the utmost seriousness. How has this story been

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Speaker 1: reported in Beijing and what has been the reactions to it?

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Speaker 1: Well, steve, I think we could describe this as being

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Speaker 1: really fast and furious. Quite literally my phone has been

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Speaker 1: buzzing nonstop with updates even prior to MS Pelosi's arrival.

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Speaker 1: And speculation grew especially as she touched down in Taiwan

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Speaker 1: very quickly numerous strongly worded statements condemning the visit were

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Speaker 1: released by various chinese departments, one after the other developments

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Speaker 1: not stopping overnight as the US ambassador to china was

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Speaker 1: summoned And that pace really continued throughout the day as

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Speaker 1: MS Pelosi's visit got underway and chinese state media and

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Speaker 1: the narrative have reported on MS Pelosi's trip, but more

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Speaker 1: so not really showing MS Pelosi in Taiwan so much

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Speaker 1: especially on the national broadcaster CCTV but focusing much more

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Speaker 1: so on the strong chinese response to this controversial visit.

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Speaker 1: We also saw the chinese military releasing these highly stylized videos,

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Speaker 1: showcasing its military hardware, fighting capabilities with captions like

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Speaker 1: stand ready and fight bury any enemy that comes preparing

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Speaker 1: for war. Which garnered a lot of attention here the

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Speaker 1: other day as well when I was at the Daily

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Speaker 1: Foreign Ministry news briefing, some journalists were just commenting that

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Speaker 1: it seems like no other news seems to matter right now.

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Speaker 1: Besides MS Pelosi's trip and the hour long session with

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Speaker 1: the spokesperson really dominated by questions On this a side

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Speaker 1: note china feel that its spokesperson these few days to

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Speaker 1: answer questions about MS Pelosi's trip. She used to

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Speaker 1: hit the information department and after being promoted to assistant

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Speaker 1: minister level, she rarely makes an appearance the last time

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Speaker 1: she did was when Russia invaded Ukraine in february. So

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Speaker 1: pointing to how significant this is to china and in

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Speaker 1: the days leading up to MS Pelosi's visit, I do

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Speaker 1: remember having conversations here with locals about will she or

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Speaker 1: won't she many thought it was unthinkable, giving you a

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Speaker 1: sense of also how much interest there has been in

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Speaker 1: this chinese social media platform. Weibo crashed briefly for

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Speaker 1: for half an hour just as Miss Pelosi's plane was

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Speaker 1: to touch down in Taiwan believed to be because of

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Speaker 1: the sheer amount of discussion online tracking her movements and

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Speaker 1: this visit has really brought out patriotism in many chinese

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Speaker 1: there's the hashtag only one china that's been used and

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Speaker 1: some who spoke out in anger about the trip. While

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Speaker 1: some also were asking has china done enough. Couldn't have

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Speaker 1: done more to prevent MS Pelosi from actually landing in Taiwan.

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Speaker 1: But on a lighter note there was some human

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Speaker 1: and this we also saw former editor in chief of

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Speaker 1: the Nationalist Global Times who's using saying in a tweet

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Speaker 1: has now been deleted that the Chinese army had the

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Speaker 1: right to quote forcibly dispel MS. Pelosi's plane though. In

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Speaker 1: a perhaps a brief humorous moment online some chinese netizens

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Speaker 1: decided to Photoshop a photo of him and MS Pelosi

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Speaker 1: in the younger days turning them into this imaginary young

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Speaker 1: couple that was circulating for a little bit. But certainly

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Speaker 1: lots of attention and discussion about this here in china.

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Speaker 1: You can always rely on the internet and social media

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Speaker 1: to poke fun at these various events. Can't you make

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Speaker 1: more than anywhere else in Washington? The narrative of a

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Speaker 1: story is always driving towards a purpose. But we did

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Speaker 1: see some mixed messaging leading up to the visit. We've

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Speaker 1: also seen some mixed messaging coming out of Pelosi's visit

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Speaker 1: as well. The Press secretary downplaying it as any other

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Speaker 1: ordinary visit by a U. S.

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Speaker 1: Official. Also it's been hailed as the highest ranking official

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Speaker 1: to go to Taiwan and therefore it's of great significance

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Speaker 1: so they can't really have it both ways. We also

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Speaker 1: heard some skepticism about midterm elections from the Taiwan residents

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Speaker 1: as well that he suggested. So what's the narrative here

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Speaker 1: for the U. S. As we heard from that Taiwan

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Speaker 1: resident a little while ago wonderfully cynical view to some

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Speaker 1: extent I do agree with them on that. I think

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Speaker 1: the midterms looking tough on china. That is part of

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Speaker 1: the calculus for this trip. But

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Speaker 1: is it fair to say that the U. S. Doesn't

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Speaker 1: care about Taiwan. Well no probably not And it's interesting

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Speaker 1: to hear from victoria just a moment ago about what

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Speaker 1: the people in Taiwan are worried about this trip potentially creating.

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Speaker 1: But I think at the same time we have to

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Speaker 1: remember that Taiwan is a very useful pawn for the

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Speaker 1: United States in its game of standing up to china.

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Speaker 1: It's the perfect example of democracy versus autocracy. That theme,

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Speaker 1: that phrase that president biden has come back to time

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Speaker 1: and time again during his presidency and from a foreign policy.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's a big win for the democrats. It helps

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Speaker 1: the biden administration look tough on china. But I think

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Speaker 1: there's a slight problem with that argument of this all

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Speaker 1: being about the midterms because simply but when it comes

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Speaker 1: to midterm elections voters are very rarely thinking about foreign policy.

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Speaker 1: It's really all about domestic issues and this time around,

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Speaker 1: Especially with inflation at almost a 40 year high. It's

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Speaker 1: all about the economy. A survey this week showed almost 75%

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Speaker 1: of Americans now say inflation is a very important issue

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Speaker 1: for them more than any other issue. So this trip

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Speaker 1: doesn't exactly give a clear vote winner for the Democrats

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Speaker 1: in terms of the midterm elections themselves

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Speaker 1: we've got about 30 seconds left for each of you

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Speaker 1: on this next question. What's your biggest from nancy Pelosi's

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Speaker 1: visit and what would you like our listeners to know

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Speaker 1: about the capitals that you cover Washington Beijing and Taipei

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Speaker 1: in relation to this story. Nick, why don't you go first?

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Speaker 1: Well steve, I think as we've seen America over the

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Speaker 1: last few years it's become

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Speaker 1: More and more politically divided. But there has been one

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Speaker 1: issue that unites Democrats and Republicans and that is the

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Speaker 1: issue of China and standing up to China, I mean

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Speaker 1: that's not going to change. It's not going to change now.

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Speaker 1: It won't change for the midterms. It won't change for

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Speaker 1: the 2024 presidential election here. So I think we can

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Speaker 1: expect more tough talk from both sides of the aisle

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Speaker 1: and I would say that that would still ring true

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Speaker 1: whether or not Pelosi had taken this trip to Taiwan

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Speaker 1: or not. Olivia.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I have to agree with Nate. And

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Speaker 1: if we were to zoom out from this particular visit

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Speaker 1: and look ahead for china, the key thing here is

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Speaker 1: that Communist Party Congress, everything is gearing up towards this

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Speaker 1: twice a decade meeting likely in the fall, very significant

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Speaker 1: for presidency and his expected third term, which means stability

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Speaker 1: is prized and china is facing another huge challenges like

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Speaker 1: with its economy, the impact of zero covid policy.

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Speaker 1: So the china us relationship and this issue with Taiwan

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Speaker 1: has to be taken in this context. So internationally, like

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Speaker 1: Nick said, this is important China views Taiwan as part

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Speaker 1: of Western efforts to try and contain it but not

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Speaker 1: forgetting that unification for Taiwan has been considered part of

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Speaker 1: china's national rejuvenation politically. On the domestic front there is

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Speaker 1: really a lot at stake as well. For the last word,

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Speaker 1: we'll go to victoria.

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Speaker 1: Yes. Taiwan is in between a rock and a hard

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Speaker 1: place and it's been that way since President High and

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Speaker 1: the DPP came to power in 2016 and it will

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Speaker 1: continue to stay that way for some time. Nick Olivia

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Speaker 1: and Victoria. Thank you for your time today and most

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Speaker 1: of all,

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Speaker 1: thank you for listening. I hope I've been able to

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Speaker 1: shed some light on what can be a complicated story

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Speaker 1: and helps you understand what's at play when big powers

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Speaker 1: battle for dominance, not just through their actions but through

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Speaker 1: the narratives of those actions as well and what it

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Speaker 1: means for the smaller players that get caught up in

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Speaker 1: the middle.

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Speaker 1: Before I go, I'd like to let you know that

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Speaker 1: there's more of CNN correspondent at your fingertips. The tv

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00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 1: version is every Wednesday at 9:30 p.m. Singapore, Hong kong time.

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Speaker 1: You can also catch up with it whenever you like

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Speaker 1: on CNN dot asia or our CNN app. And you

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00:22:23,980 --> 00:22:26,409
Speaker 1: can also like and subscribe to this podcast version. So

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Speaker 1: you don't miss any of our future episodes. Our podcast

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Speaker 1: team is made up of daniel lee Christina, robert, sarah

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Speaker 1: and me steve live