WEBVTT - How achievable is Malaysia's 2050 net zero emissions target? | EP 54 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.550 the following is a CNN a podcast. 0:00:03.940 --> 0:00:05.359 I'm 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.250 Jamie Hello and thanks for listening to the climate conversations 0:00:08.260 --> 0:00:09.410 today. 0:00:09.410 --> 0:00:14.470 I'm talking about Malaysia's 2059 0 emissions targets, Prime Minister 0:00:14.470 --> 0:00:17.540 Ismail Sabri announced the country's goal are reaching net zero 0:00:17.540 --> 0:00:21.040 by 2015 at the earliest. When he unveiled the 12th 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:24.739 Malaysia plan in parliament, he outlined a slew of measures 0:00:24.739 --> 0:00:27.460 to get the country to net zero, such as an 0:00:27.470 --> 0:00:31.280 end to new coal fired power plants, more installed renewable 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:35.070 energy and the carbon tax. But how achievable is net 0:00:35.070 --> 0:00:38.820 zero by 2050 for Malaysia? What would it mean for 0:00:38.820 --> 0:00:42.260 its economy from fossil fuels to palm oil? Or can 0:00:42.260 --> 0:00:43.960 it be a leader in Southeast Asia? 0:00:44.740 --> 0:00:50.010 With me today is Henry Adnan, executive Director of the 0:00:50.010 --> 0:00:54.760 Malaysian Institute of Economic Research, he's also the former ceo 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:59.110 of the Langkawi Development Authority and specializes in sustainable development 0:00:59.110 --> 0:01:03.630 solutions across fields like the green economy and natural resources governance. 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:04.750 Henry welcome. 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:08.260 Thank you, jeremy, thank you for inviting me to the conversation. 0:01:08.340 --> 0:01:10.460 I want to get to the first question. Tell us 0:01:10.459 --> 0:01:14.190 your reaction when you first heard of Malaysia's carbon neutral goal, 0:01:14.190 --> 0:01:17.559 were you surprised or were they already signs that policy 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:19.460 makers were gearing up towards it? 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:22.869 I was very optimistic and upbeat when I heard that 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:25.600 because given what's going on in the country and the 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.270 fact that the leadership can still be more attention to 0:01:28.270 --> 0:01:31.350 climate change is really welcoming. I thought the emphasis on 0:01:31.350 --> 0:01:33.490 climate change is not new in Malaysia, but of course 0:01:33.490 --> 0:01:35.250 the question is on the implementation 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.880 since you mentioned that talk us through in your view 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:43.020 how successive governments have taken on climate change stepping up, 0:01:43.020 --> 0:01:46.580 not just domestic action, but internationally as well. I would presume. 0:01:46.590 --> 0:01:50.960 How has this government under PM is more Sudbury deferred 0:01:51.340 --> 0:01:54.800 potentially from earlier ones from PM Najib two PM. I 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:57.850 had it when he didn't on climate change and larger 0:01:57.860 --> 0:01:59.610 sustainability issues. 0:01:59.620 --> 0:02:03.780 Malaysia has always been instrumental in international negotiations on sustainable 0:02:03.780 --> 0:02:07.360 development in general. So particularly climate change and university together 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:08.350 with India and brazil, 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:11.799 We were very instrumental in getting the development component to 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:14.320 be part and parcel of international negotiations way back in 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:18.820 the first reel in 1992. And since then, our leadership 0:02:18.830 --> 0:02:21.050 on climate change issues with a number of countries have 0:02:21.050 --> 0:02:22.450 taken a number of guises. 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.120 This is an international level, but it's always in the 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.959 interest of protecting the developing world. And this distinction between 0:02:28.970 --> 0:02:31.679 the development of developing country has always been there. We've 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:35.070 also managed to get the people society measure to be 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:38.120 interested along the same line. For instance, the world network 0:02:38.130 --> 0:02:41.910 is very known International. NGO started from Penang and started 0:02:41.910 --> 0:02:45.460 to sort of play on the common but differentiated responsibility 0:02:45.740 --> 0:02:49.330 so internationally has always been playing a role there, particularly 0:02:49.340 --> 0:02:54.220 emphasizing the role of developing countries within the country, of 0:02:54.220 --> 0:02:57.380 course design and was a watershed year when the green 0:02:57.380 --> 0:03:00.350 technology portfolio was introduced by Prime Minister Najib 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:03.470 along with that we had the sustainable energy development Authority 0:03:03.470 --> 0:03:06.800 established and a few other sectoral plans were also made 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:08.860 to the four at the policy level, 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:12.600 There's been a number of adjustments along the years from 0:03:12.610 --> 0:03:14.889 uh you know, in 2000 and we had a 40% 0:03:14.889 --> 0:03:19.239 reduction carbon industy there was conditional that transfer and also 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:24.100 fund from developed countries in 2016 we upgraded that the 0:03:24.110 --> 0:03:28.760 Paris agreement to 45% by 2013 emission tests per GDP. 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.270 And then there was a couple weeks ago when promises 0:03:31.270 --> 0:03:36.400 on the subway announced that 45% reduction based on 2030 G. D. P. 0:03:36.410 --> 0:03:39.930 And this is unconditional. It's sort of evolved over the years. 0:03:39.940 --> 0:03:43.070 I think this is very welcoming. The implementation is the 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:44.140 challenge of course. 0:03:44.150 --> 0:03:46.860 So I was going to get to the implementation and 0:03:46.860 --> 0:03:48.760 if you look at the longer term 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.390 2050 goal or 2050 at the earliest as the PM said, 0:03:52.390 --> 0:03:55.820 as far as zero emissions are concerned. When you look 0:03:55.820 --> 0:03:58.490 at the overall structure of the Malaysian economy and it's 0:03:58.490 --> 0:04:01.230 the same thing for countries like Singapore and elsewhere as well. 0:04:01.230 --> 0:04:03.020 When you look at the overall structure of it, there 0:04:03.020 --> 0:04:06.680 will be parts of it which are dependent on petrochemicals 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:09.450 and other sort of emissions intensive industries. 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:13.190 How do you think Malaysia's economy will start evolving between 0:04:13.190 --> 0:04:16.460 now and towards its goal of 2050 structurally as well, 0:04:16.460 --> 0:04:20.050 moving away towards certain industries are helping them transition. 0:04:20.140 --> 0:04:24.290 And then when you look at that kind of decarbonization economy, 0:04:24.300 --> 0:04:27.870 where will new revenue streams were coming on for the 0:04:27.870 --> 0:04:29.460 Ministry of Finance for example? 0:04:30.339 --> 0:04:33.219 Excellent question? The emphasis by Malaysia over the years has 0:04:33.230 --> 0:04:36.659 always been to combine, you know, forest conservation with increasing 0:04:36.660 --> 0:04:41.080 renewable energy into the energy mix. And we're also focusing 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.650 on low carbon cities or promotion of public transportation and 0:04:44.650 --> 0:04:47.140 greener urban planning. So that's always been the sort of 0:04:47.140 --> 0:04:49.450 a holy trinity of Malaysian response. 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:51.970 Moving forward. We need to ask the hard question and 0:04:51.970 --> 0:04:55.070 address as we put the dependency on oil and gas 0:04:55.070 --> 0:04:55.850 for instance. 0:04:56.140 --> 0:04:59.020 And this is where I think the recent emphasis on 0:04:59.020 --> 0:05:03.230 hydrogen economy will be if well undertaken will be the 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:05.500 game changer for, you know, the heart to de carbonized 0:05:05.500 --> 0:05:09.099 sectors like the holiday or transportation sectors and also the 0:05:09.110 --> 0:05:12.210 oil and gas sectors. I noticed that the government since 0:05:12.210 --> 0:05:15.940 downstream we need to cover them. Similarly with Sabr is 0:05:15.940 --> 0:05:17.349 continuing along this line 0:05:17.540 --> 0:05:20.659 of looking at hydrogen economy as a game changer. The 0:05:20.660 --> 0:05:24.380 welcoming news is the fact that now through our government 0:05:24.390 --> 0:05:26.770 is putting more efforts, in fact the most advanced when 0:05:26.770 --> 0:05:30.020 it comes to hydrogen economy, they are encouraged to what's 0:05:30.020 --> 0:05:33.779 happening in brunei, you know, japan is importing hydrogen from benign. 0:05:33.779 --> 0:05:36.350 So there is this neighborhood rivalry there, 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.330 these are the kind of new things that have to 0:05:38.330 --> 0:05:38.880 happen 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:41.970 for us to recognize the hard to recognize sectors. 0:05:41.980 --> 0:05:43.520 I think a lot of it also will come from 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.140 this so called green Tech master plan, You've been a 0:05:46.140 --> 0:05:48.000 bit involved in that. Tell us a bit about that 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:50.849 as well. And in rough strokes, where does Malaysia see 0:05:50.850 --> 0:05:52.560 the potential for green tech 0:05:52.940 --> 0:05:55.980 screen tag has been? Yeah, I put in place since 2009, 0:05:55.990 --> 0:05:58.739 but it's been a slow uptake over the years. I 0:05:58.750 --> 0:06:02.779 remember in 2000 and nine or 2010, the government announced 0:06:02.779 --> 0:06:06.790 green technology financing scheme amounting to one billion ringgit Malaysia 0:06:06.790 --> 0:06:09.690 at the time, I remember it was oversubscribed, you know, 0:06:09.690 --> 0:06:11.359 in the first day it was announced, 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:14.060 the tough call happened when they approached the bank, but 0:06:14.060 --> 0:06:16.560 this is the government guarantees soft loan program 0:06:16.740 --> 0:06:19.220 and the bands were not very sure of how to 0:06:19.220 --> 0:06:22.260 deal with the risk of green technology financing. You know, 0:06:22.270 --> 0:06:24.860 so it has taken some years for the country to 0:06:24.860 --> 0:06:28.020 begin to get our act together in countries, but I 0:06:28.020 --> 0:06:30.119 left the environment seen for a couple of years to 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:31.950 take up a position in government, 0:06:32.339 --> 0:06:36.050 Mainly focusing on tourism. But when I returned recently into 0:06:36.050 --> 0:06:40.010 the environmental community, I am very surprised with the level 0:06:40.020 --> 0:06:44.480 of interest in the private sector in government, in civil society. 0:06:44.490 --> 0:06:47.310 For 20 years. We happen only to, you know, Bob 0:06:47.310 --> 0:06:49.159 into the same people in all meetings. 0:06:49.339 --> 0:06:52.060 But now there's so many new players, I can name 0:06:52.060 --> 0:06:55.700 a few new groups like the Climate Action Network, a 0:06:55.710 --> 0:06:59.630 group of young members, grassroots group, 85% of them are 0:06:59.630 --> 0:07:03.710 below 25 77 are women. But there's also a climate 0:07:03.710 --> 0:07:07.880 governance Malaysia, which is the chapter of the world, Economic forum, 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:11.060 climate governance initiative, a network of non executive directors. 0:07:11.140 --> 0:07:13.980 These are the new players in the scene and pushing 0:07:13.980 --> 0:07:17.590 the government pushing the society to increase their attention on 0:07:17.590 --> 0:07:20.150 climate change. So it's very welcoming, I would say. 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.760 Interesting you say that because I can see the parallels 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:25.510 here over here in Singapore as well, because in the 0:07:25.510 --> 0:07:25.960 last 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.840 2, 34 years as well as a significant uptick in 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:34.470 not just civil society, but also government and private sector interests, 0:07:34.470 --> 0:07:36.360 the finance sector interest in terms of 0:07:36.740 --> 0:07:39.240 how you do green financing. So yeah, it's been an 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.760 exciting couple of years for the overall sector, you know, 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.900 part of the world. For sure, I want to now again, 0:07:45.900 --> 0:07:48.280 a little bit about something which, again, Singapore has also 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.780 been grappling with it. I'm sure Malaysia will grapple with 0:07:50.780 --> 0:07:54.630 it at some point, is the power generation and how 0:07:54.630 --> 0:07:55.250 we generate 0:07:55.540 --> 0:07:59.220 energy for our economies. Right? According to the Iaea, the 0:07:59.220 --> 0:08:02.240 share of natural gas, the power mix of Malaysia actually 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:06.200 fell a little bit between 2000 and five and 2015 0:08:06.210 --> 0:08:10.480 because of declining domestic gas production. So, Malaysia, to some 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.530 extent is reliant on coal and your PM has said 0:08:13.530 --> 0:08:17.350 he hopes to replace coal power plants with gas fired plants, 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:20.880 how will this transition take place do you have a 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.100 goal in your own mind as to how quickly this 0:08:23.100 --> 0:08:26.869 can realistically take place? And I suppose as we've said earlier, 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.380 these are going to be depend on quite significant shifts 0:08:30.390 --> 0:08:33.130 in the Malaysian economic structure. If they're going to move 0:08:33.130 --> 0:08:36.930 away from emissions intensive power plants such as the coal 0:08:36.929 --> 0:08:37.860 fire ones. 0:08:38.340 --> 0:08:42.510 If you look at the policy documents or the commitments 0:08:42.510 --> 0:08:46.790 by people in Putrajaya, you are very encouraged and what's 0:08:46.790 --> 0:08:49.480 going to happen. But the devil is in the details 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:52.310 they always see. And this is now being held by 0:08:52.309 --> 0:08:55.580 the government. I think there is a long term emissions 0:08:55.590 --> 0:08:57.660 development strategy not being developed. 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:01.070 So they're looking at the details, you know, accounting of 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:05.040 the sectors including the power sector and this will only 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:08.170 be finalized in June of 2022. So it'll take a 0:09:08.170 --> 0:09:10.880 while before we can begin to see how are you 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:14.270 going to prioritize some of these areas coming back to cole? 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.350 This is the challenge. You also see this internationally with 0:09:17.350 --> 0:09:18.260 the southern 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:23.059 Hike in oil price emphasis on decarbonization across the world, 0:09:23.059 --> 0:09:26.349 including the big players like China. Even when you take 0:09:26.350 --> 0:09:29.640 a close look at the recovery package, you know, of 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.900 many countries, there's one study done, they look at 31 0:09:32.900 --> 0:09:34.959 stimulus packages all over the world. 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.330 It was only a small fraction given to actually renewable 0:09:38.330 --> 0:09:41.240 energy despite what being announced. You know, So there is 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:46.220 this discrepancy between what is promised and what is being done. 0:09:46.230 --> 0:09:48.920 And this is where I think you need more details 0:09:48.929 --> 0:09:51.580 and the details now being worked out in Malaysia? I 0:09:51.580 --> 0:09:54.550 look at the 12 Malaysia plan, which was released on 0:09:54.550 --> 0:09:57.079 the 27th of september and I was being passed by 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.250 both the genre and the one negara in Malaysia, 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:05.230 The word circular economy for instance, appeared 79 times. So 0:10:05.230 --> 0:10:07.680 we are not worried when it comes to government commitment 0:10:07.690 --> 0:10:11.170 on paper, but we are very interested to see and 0:10:11.170 --> 0:10:13.950 we should be part and parcel to help the government 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.950 to really work out the details coming back to court. 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.740 Even the big players like DNA Malaysia is paying more 0:10:19.740 --> 0:10:21.860 attention to recently. I was in a webinar 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:24.730 and they have a new section that looks at decarbonization. 0:10:24.740 --> 0:10:28.980 So it is being worked out I believe. But uh, 0:10:28.990 --> 0:10:31.060 one important point that we should note 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.050 the past two years that you said has brought in 0:10:34.050 --> 0:10:37.990 new players into this climate change policy domain. The challenge 0:10:37.990 --> 0:10:39.910 is to get everyone together and to work with the 0:10:39.910 --> 0:10:48.360 government to detail out so that it won't just be greenwashing. 0:10:48.540 --> 0:10:50.800 I'm glad you raised the point about what we were 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:52.949 supposed to be a green recovery right? As we had 0:10:52.950 --> 0:10:55.950 hoped last year, at the height of the covid pandemic, 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:58.349 there were suggestions that there will be a surgeon sort 0:10:58.350 --> 0:11:01.910 of economic stimulus is that were green and sustainable, but 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.100 you know, maybe it hasn't worked out as well as 0:11:04.100 --> 0:11:07.500 we would have hoped on the issue of renewables and 0:11:07.510 --> 0:11:11.040 hopefully we're getting there sooner rather than later. Where do 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.140 you think renewables will stand in Malaysia's plans to go 0:11:14.140 --> 0:11:15.750 carbon neutral at some point in time, 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:20.890 It wants 31% of installed power capacity to be renewable. 0:11:20.900 --> 0:11:24.020 So this includes hydropower in the longer term. As long 0:11:24.020 --> 0:11:26.559 as you would like whether you see hydro plus solar 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:28.710 and wind for a country like Malaysia 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:32.820 hydropower, the big potential has always been in peninsula also 0:11:32.820 --> 0:11:34.080 in Strada and also some 0:11:34.540 --> 0:11:37.600 we are left with the mini hydropower plants. There are 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.880 still potential in states like there are for instance has 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.250 great potential for media hydro and that now is being 0:11:44.250 --> 0:11:48.349 developed by the private sector with government on the wind site. Unfortunately, 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.240 Peninsular Malaysia does not sit in the wind region if 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:53.840 you like, you know, there's a measure one or two 0:11:53.850 --> 0:11:56.880 m so we are not in that map. So we 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.030 are in a low wind potential area in someone there 0:12:00.030 --> 0:12:02.770 is that potential that is now being developed as well. 0:12:02.770 --> 0:12:05.380 I was made to understand recently, the company that has 0:12:05.380 --> 0:12:08.660 just signed on for the development of wind power in 0:12:08.660 --> 0:12:12.530 Sabah solar, there is a spike and interest on large 0:12:12.530 --> 0:12:15.260 scale solar systems. Of course there are other issues related 0:12:15.260 --> 0:12:17.689 to that, you know, with land use tension and all that. 0:12:17.700 --> 0:12:21.060 But there is that growing interest in that area as well. 0:12:21.540 --> 0:12:24.710 The question is, how do you bring everything together again? 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.410 This is where we need a new entity that brings 0:12:27.410 --> 0:12:30.120 together the different players. Government is in the midst of 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.020 coming up with a center on climate change. This should 0:12:33.020 --> 0:12:35.459 be able to bring a different players together. But again, 0:12:35.470 --> 0:12:37.380 it's not going to happen overnight. So we have to 0:12:37.380 --> 0:12:39.530 look for another year or two more years before this 0:12:39.530 --> 0:12:40.160 can happen. 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:43.060 You know, countries like us here in Singapore have been 0:12:43.059 --> 0:12:46.780 looking increasingly into the even part of renewable and cleaner 0:12:46.780 --> 0:12:49.710 energies from other countries. Do you think that this is 0:12:49.710 --> 0:12:53.240 something that Malaysia may be looking at two importing more 0:12:53.250 --> 0:12:56.160 clean renewable energy and how would you think this will 0:12:56.160 --> 0:13:00.530 balance between its own domestic capabilities with fossil fuels with 0:13:00.530 --> 0:13:02.550 renewables plus the potential to 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.420 import, would that be an option ever? You think 0:13:05.429 --> 0:13:08.760 that has not been discussed widely as yet in Malaysia 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:10.689 will say because we still think that we are a 0:13:10.690 --> 0:13:15.260 resource rich country and everything should be produced here. But 0:13:15.260 --> 0:13:17.390 just to add to my earlier point about solar in 0:13:17.390 --> 0:13:20.960 particular is that I remember a senior bureaucrat once said 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:24.050 that not all electrons are created equal, 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:27.170 there is this question of stability, you know, and intermittent 0:13:27.170 --> 0:13:29.929 sea of solar for instance. Yeah, the way forward for 0:13:29.929 --> 0:13:33.030 Malaysia is to really look at the technical details and 0:13:33.030 --> 0:13:36.189 work out how the loose and can be tightened up 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:40.080 rather than importing. I think that's a different scenario demolition 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:41.390 Singapore there, you 0:13:41.390 --> 0:13:43.059 know, one of the 0:13:43.340 --> 0:13:46.220 things that were raised most recently was obviously the role 0:13:46.220 --> 0:13:49.630 of a carbon tax in helping Malaysia reached its goals 0:13:49.630 --> 0:13:50.450 in the longer term. 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.590 Carbon taxes everywhere are always going to be controversial politically. 0:13:54.590 --> 0:13:57.390 Even here in Singapore, there's always going to be some 0:13:57.390 --> 0:14:00.809 pushback there. How is the Malaysian government you think going 0:14:00.820 --> 0:14:04.179 to transition away from as it stands now, even fossil 0:14:04.179 --> 0:14:06.770 fuel subsidies towards, you know, the opposite end of the 0:14:06.770 --> 0:14:08.949 political spectrum or policy spectrum 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.459 towards taxing fossil fuel consumption, 0:14:11.740 --> 0:14:13.360 Is this going to be difficult, you think? 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.500 Yeah, it's not going to be a walk in the garden, 0:14:16.510 --> 0:14:19.460 but the government has mentioned this and there's also think 0:14:19.460 --> 0:14:21.780 tanks like the indian Institute for instance, has sort of 0:14:21.780 --> 0:14:24.900 worked out a detail for what amount of carbon price 0:14:24.900 --> 0:14:28.280 should Malaysia explore in the next few years, because we 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.120 are now looking at sort of expanding our fiscal space 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:34.830 in Malaysia and the Ministry of Finance is seriously looking 0:14:34.830 --> 0:14:37.280 at the introduction of carbon tax. But the question is, 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:39.580 what is the pricing and what is the mechanism that's 0:14:39.580 --> 0:14:40.660 still being worked out? 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:44.270 In addition to that, is the announcement by the government 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:47.790 of the domestic emissions trading scheme or the E. T. S. 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.480 So there is to boost the sort of carbon exchange 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.460 domestically as well. So, these are the kind of ideas 0:14:53.460 --> 0:14:56.160 in the pipeline, which we're really excited to see how 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.310 this will turn out introduction of new text in the 0:14:59.310 --> 0:15:01.860 current situation is not going to be very popular, 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:05.240 especially if election is just around the corner. We will 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:08.520 have to be very patient in seeing the production of 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:12.380 these new measures in Malaysia, but the fact that we 0:15:12.380 --> 0:15:15.560 are talking about it seriously and I would also happen 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.360 to add that the Ministry of Finance in Malaysia has 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:20.760 been very proactive in the past two years, 0:15:20.940 --> 0:15:23.620 looking at, you know, how the environment can be part 0:15:23.620 --> 0:15:26.060 and parcel of the new fiscal regime and all that 0:15:26.070 --> 0:15:28.970 for instance, uh in the latest budget, there's a mention 0:15:28.970 --> 0:15:30.560 of the ecological transfer 0:15:30.740 --> 0:15:32.860 scheme involving the states, 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:37.150 so they will be very proactive, usually would be a 0:15:37.150 --> 0:15:39.440 bit ambivalent about all these things and we have the 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.760 economic planning unit in Malaysia that will be pushing for 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:46.040 greener measures. But now we are seeing even the Minister 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:49.119 of Finance under the leadership of who's a friend who's 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.540 a banker, I think the banking sector is also responding 0:15:51.540 --> 0:15:56.010 very aggressively in the sustainability domain. He brings that culture 0:15:56.010 --> 0:15:57.870 into Ministry of Finance 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.880 Here in Singapore from the time that the hint was dropped, 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:03.950 that there will be a carbon tax to eventually setting 0:16:03.950 --> 0:16:06.790 the rate and then, which was relatively low in the 0:16:06.790 --> 0:16:09.660 first place, five Singapore dollars. And then now for the 0:16:09.660 --> 0:16:12.220 Hindus they will indeed go up even more in the 0:16:12.220 --> 0:16:13.860 coming years that took some time. 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:16.430 So I suspect it will probably take as long as 0:16:16.430 --> 0:16:19.060 that for Malaysia to, but it'll be interesting to see 0:16:19.070 --> 0:16:21.830 eventually how the rates in the two countries sort of 0:16:21.830 --> 0:16:24.360 feed off each other because I suppose there will have 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.600 to be some degree of looking over the shoulder and 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.330 seeing what each country does and hopefully there'll be some 0:16:29.330 --> 0:16:31.700 room for cooperation as well when it comes to emissions 0:16:31.700 --> 0:16:34.930 trading schemes and things like that. I wanted to transition 0:16:34.930 --> 0:16:37.340 out to our last couple of questions. And one of 0:16:37.340 --> 0:16:39.320 the things that you raise very early on in our 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:43.570 conversation was Malaysia's flow on the international stage where it 0:16:43.570 --> 0:16:45.990 has in the past being at the forefront with fellow 0:16:45.990 --> 0:16:51.580 developing countries in ensuring that the interests are met and considered. 0:16:51.590 --> 0:16:55.350 For example, the international negotiations, Are you keeping an eye 0:16:55.350 --> 0:16:57.970 on what's happening or what's going to happen in Glasgow. 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:00.160 And when you think about what Malaysia can do and 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:04.380 what other developing countries want to see happen from cop 26, 0:17:04.390 --> 0:17:06.700 how do you think it's gonna pan out and what 0:17:06.700 --> 0:17:08.660 do you think it's a good outcome for Malaysia? 0:17:09.140 --> 0:17:12.610 The financing dimension of the negotiation will be very important 0:17:12.609 --> 0:17:15.290 and very important thing to watch for the developing countries 0:17:15.290 --> 0:17:18.100 in particular, for those who have been observing the development, 0:17:18.100 --> 0:17:20.490 of course are our best bet is to be cautiously 0:17:20.490 --> 0:17:23.940 optimistic because we've seen what happened in Copenhagen, but now 0:17:23.940 --> 0:17:27.110 it's also a very challenging time given that we are 0:17:27.109 --> 0:17:30.460 just reeling from the impact of pandemic globally and 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:34.129 most countries are struggling with the basics of vaccines and 0:17:34.140 --> 0:17:37.400 burden on the fiscal space. So in fact, Malaysia is 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.659 also sending a smaller delegation to Glasgow this year 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.859 compared to previous years and I presume it's going to 0:17:43.859 --> 0:17:46.780 be the same for other developing countries as well. But 0:17:46.790 --> 0:17:49.800 we also see more commitments this part of what awful 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.469 things that's happening out there. There there greater commitments by 0:17:52.470 --> 0:17:57.359 many developing countries. I'm cautiously optimistic on the outcome, but 0:17:57.369 --> 0:18:00.350 we are hoping the big countries will commit more given 0:18:00.350 --> 0:18:03.210 that the rest of the world is really really from 0:18:03.210 --> 0:18:04.460 the impact of pandemic. 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:06.690 As a final question then, you know, maybe you can 0:18:06.690 --> 0:18:10.500 give us a little bit of insight into domestically, how 0:18:10.510 --> 0:18:13.010 the Malaysian people and you made a brief reference to 0:18:13.010 --> 0:18:15.070 this in terms of the ngos that have emerged and 0:18:15.070 --> 0:18:18.460 are playing stronger and stronger roles. Everyone has come through 0:18:18.470 --> 0:18:21.050 quite a hard period the last 18 months or so 0:18:21.050 --> 0:18:23.930 with COVID, Malaysia has also had a certain degree of 0:18:23.930 --> 0:18:25.270 political uncertainty. 0:18:25.340 --> 0:18:28.800 How difficult is it to move beyond this? Start pushing 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.580 the climate agenda again and then do you think there's 0:18:31.580 --> 0:18:34.880 going to be as well? A dynamic between the federal 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:37.610 government's goals and where does the state governments lie as 0:18:37.609 --> 0:18:42.429 well in pushing climate and sustainability agendas? Will they have 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:44.270 the support of the people? 0:18:44.340 --> 0:18:46.379 Is there enough interest going forward in the, in the 0:18:46.380 --> 0:18:47.160 coming years? 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:51.030 The debate on climate change tends to be l centric, 0:18:51.030 --> 0:18:54.340 I would say, but the impact is being felt by 0:18:54.350 --> 0:18:56.760 people in the rural areas as well, you know, for instance, 0:18:56.770 --> 0:19:00.470 in places like where I am from, there has been 0:19:00.470 --> 0:19:03.790 a number of drop events that it cost two planting 0:19:03.790 --> 0:19:04.960 seasons to be missed 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.240 and that has caused a great deal of suffering for 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.450 the people there. And if you go to the, on 0:19:09.450 --> 0:19:12.370 the ground, you know, particularly during drought time, you can 0:19:12.369 --> 0:19:15.750 see that the agricultural sector is suffering particularly for the 0:19:15.750 --> 0:19:19.170 rice planting areas of the grand jury areas in Malaysia, 0:19:19.180 --> 0:19:21.879 there must be an effort to communicate this to the 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.530 broader public and I think the growth of more ngos 0:19:24.530 --> 0:19:26.360 coming to the fore is something healthy. 0:19:26.540 --> 0:19:30.350 But the other thing is also expected to be hydrological certainties. 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.760 The flood zones in Malaysia is expanding. For instance, there 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:37.320 is one study that looked at the expansion of super hot, 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:41.340 flat prone area, so we are going to see about 200% 0:19:41.340 --> 0:19:46.740 increase in this area by 2030, similarly in quarantine, so 0:19:46.740 --> 0:19:49.060 more people will be affected by floods 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:52.500 and we have to make this discourse something that matters 0:19:52.500 --> 0:19:56.260 to everyone, not just among the putrajaya bubble or the banks, 0:19:56.260 --> 0:19:57.760 a bubble of Malaysia, 0:19:58.140 --> 0:20:02.690 more communication is needed. Most importantly, Jamie, if we have 0:20:02.690 --> 0:20:06.859 to have a strong voice, environmental voice in the august 0:20:06.859 --> 0:20:11.070 House of Parliament. Currently we don't have anyone championing environment 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:15.270