Speaker 1: the following is a CNN a podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm
Speaker 1: Jamie Hello and thanks for listening to the climate conversations
Speaker 2: today.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about Malaysia's 2059 0 emissions targets, Prime Minister
Speaker 1: Ismail Sabri announced the country's goal are reaching net zero
Speaker 1: by 2015 at the earliest. When he unveiled the 12th
Speaker 1: Malaysia plan in parliament, he outlined a slew of measures
Speaker 1: to get the country to net zero, such as an
Speaker 1: end to new coal fired power plants, more installed renewable
Speaker 1: energy and the carbon tax. But how achievable is net
Speaker 1: zero by 2050 for Malaysia? What would it mean for
Speaker 1: its economy from fossil fuels to palm oil? Or can
Speaker 1: it be a leader in Southeast Asia?
Speaker 1: With me today is Henry Adnan, executive Director of the
Speaker 1: Malaysian Institute of Economic Research, he's also the former ceo
Speaker 1: of the Langkawi Development Authority and specializes in sustainable development
Speaker 1: solutions across fields like the green economy and natural resources governance.
Speaker 1: Henry welcome.
Speaker 2: Thank you, jeremy, thank you for inviting me to the conversation.
Speaker 1: I want to get to the first question. Tell us
Speaker 1: your reaction when you first heard of Malaysia's carbon neutral goal,
Speaker 1: were you surprised or were they already signs that policy
Speaker 1: makers were gearing up towards it?
Speaker 2: I was very optimistic and upbeat when I heard that
Speaker 2: because given what's going on in the country and the
Speaker 2: fact that the leadership can still be more attention to
Speaker 2: climate change is really welcoming. I thought the emphasis on
Speaker 2: climate change is not new in Malaysia, but of course
Speaker 2: the question is on the implementation
Speaker 1: since you mentioned that talk us through in your view
Speaker 1: how successive governments have taken on climate change stepping up,
Speaker 1: not just domestic action, but internationally as well. I would presume.
Speaker 1: How has this government under PM is more Sudbury deferred
Speaker 1: potentially from earlier ones from PM Najib two PM. I
Speaker 1: had it when he didn't on climate change and larger
Speaker 1: sustainability issues.
Speaker 2: Malaysia has always been instrumental in international negotiations on sustainable
Speaker 2: development in general. So particularly climate change and university together
Speaker 2: with India and brazil,
Speaker 2: We were very instrumental in getting the development component to
Speaker 2: be part and parcel of international negotiations way back in
Speaker 2: the first reel in 1992. And since then, our leadership
Speaker 2: on climate change issues with a number of countries have
Speaker 2: taken a number of guises.
Speaker 2: This is an international level, but it's always in the
Speaker 2: interest of protecting the developing world. And this distinction between
Speaker 2: the development of developing country has always been there. We've
Speaker 2: also managed to get the people society measure to be
Speaker 2: interested along the same line. For instance, the world network
Speaker 2: is very known International. NGO started from Penang and started
Speaker 2: to sort of play on the common but differentiated responsibility
Speaker 2: so internationally has always been playing a role there, particularly
Speaker 2: emphasizing the role of developing countries within the country, of
Speaker 2: course design and was a watershed year when the green
Speaker 2: technology portfolio was introduced by Prime Minister Najib
Speaker 2: along with that we had the sustainable energy development Authority
Speaker 2: established and a few other sectoral plans were also made
Speaker 2: to the four at the policy level,
Speaker 2: There's been a number of adjustments along the years from
Speaker 2: uh you know, in 2000 and we had a 40%
Speaker 2: reduction carbon industy there was conditional that transfer and also
Speaker 2: fund from developed countries in 2016 we upgraded that the
Speaker 2: Paris agreement to 45% by 2013 emission tests per GDP.
Speaker 2: And then there was a couple weeks ago when promises
Speaker 2: on the subway announced that 45% reduction based on 2030 G. D. P.
Speaker 2: And this is unconditional. It's sort of evolved over the years.
Speaker 2: I think this is very welcoming. The implementation is the
Speaker 2: challenge of course.
Speaker 1: So I was going to get to the implementation and
Speaker 1: if you look at the longer term
Speaker 1: 2050 goal or 2050 at the earliest as the PM said,
Speaker 1: as far as zero emissions are concerned. When you look
Speaker 1: at the overall structure of the Malaysian economy and it's
Speaker 1: the same thing for countries like Singapore and elsewhere as well.
Speaker 1: When you look at the overall structure of it, there
Speaker 1: will be parts of it which are dependent on petrochemicals
Speaker 1: and other sort of emissions intensive industries.
Speaker 1: How do you think Malaysia's economy will start evolving between
Speaker 1: now and towards its goal of 2050 structurally as well,
Speaker 1: moving away towards certain industries are helping them transition.
Speaker 1: And then when you look at that kind of decarbonization economy,
Speaker 1: where will new revenue streams were coming on for the
Speaker 1: Ministry of Finance for example?
Speaker 2: Excellent question? The emphasis by Malaysia over the years has
Speaker 2: always been to combine, you know, forest conservation with increasing
Speaker 2: renewable energy into the energy mix. And we're also focusing
Speaker 2: on low carbon cities or promotion of public transportation and
Speaker 2: greener urban planning. So that's always been the sort of
Speaker 2: a holy trinity of Malaysian response.
Speaker 2: Moving forward. We need to ask the hard question and
Speaker 2: address as we put the dependency on oil and gas
Speaker 2: for instance.
Speaker 2: And this is where I think the recent emphasis on
Speaker 2: hydrogen economy will be if well undertaken will be the
Speaker 2: game changer for, you know, the heart to de carbonized
Speaker 2: sectors like the holiday or transportation sectors and also the
Speaker 2: oil and gas sectors. I noticed that the government since
Speaker 2: downstream we need to cover them. Similarly with Sabr is
Speaker 2: continuing along this line
Speaker 2: of looking at hydrogen economy as a game changer. The
Speaker 2: welcoming news is the fact that now through our government
Speaker 2: is putting more efforts, in fact the most advanced when
Speaker 2: it comes to hydrogen economy, they are encouraged to what's
Speaker 2: happening in brunei, you know, japan is importing hydrogen from benign.
Speaker 2: So there is this neighborhood rivalry there,
Speaker 2: these are the kind of new things that have to
Speaker 2: happen
Speaker 2: for us to recognize the hard to recognize sectors.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it also will come from
Speaker 1: this so called green Tech master plan, You've been a
Speaker 1: bit involved in that. Tell us a bit about that
Speaker 1: as well. And in rough strokes, where does Malaysia see
Speaker 1: the potential for green tech
Speaker 2: screen tag has been? Yeah, I put in place since 2009,
Speaker 2: but it's been a slow uptake over the years. I
Speaker 2: remember in 2000 and nine or 2010, the government announced
Speaker 2: green technology financing scheme amounting to one billion ringgit Malaysia
Speaker 2: at the time, I remember it was oversubscribed, you know,
Speaker 2: in the first day it was announced,
Speaker 2: the tough call happened when they approached the bank, but
Speaker 2: this is the government guarantees soft loan program
Speaker 2: and the bands were not very sure of how to
Speaker 2: deal with the risk of green technology financing. You know,
Speaker 2: so it has taken some years for the country to
Speaker 2: begin to get our act together in countries, but I
Speaker 2: left the environment seen for a couple of years to
Speaker 2: take up a position in government,
Speaker 2: Mainly focusing on tourism. But when I returned recently into
Speaker 2: the environmental community, I am very surprised with the level
Speaker 2: of interest in the private sector in government, in civil society.
Speaker 2: For 20 years. We happen only to, you know, Bob
Speaker 2: into the same people in all meetings.
Speaker 2: But now there's so many new players, I can name
Speaker 2: a few new groups like the Climate Action Network, a
Speaker 2: group of young members, grassroots group, 85% of them are
Speaker 2: below 25 77 are women. But there's also a climate
Speaker 2: governance Malaysia, which is the chapter of the world, Economic forum,
Speaker 2: climate governance initiative, a network of non executive directors.
Speaker 2: These are the new players in the scene and pushing
Speaker 2: the government pushing the society to increase their attention on
Speaker 2: climate change. So it's very welcoming, I would say.
Speaker 1: Interesting you say that because I can see the parallels
Speaker 1: here over here in Singapore as well, because in the
Speaker 1: last
Speaker 1: 2, 34 years as well as a significant uptick in
Speaker 1: not just civil society, but also government and private sector interests,
Speaker 1: the finance sector interest in terms of
Speaker 1: how you do green financing. So yeah, it's been an
Speaker 1: exciting couple of years for the overall sector, you know,
Speaker 1: part of the world. For sure, I want to now again,
Speaker 1: a little bit about something which, again, Singapore has also
Speaker 1: been grappling with it. I'm sure Malaysia will grapple with
Speaker 1: it at some point, is the power generation and how
Speaker 1: we generate
Speaker 1: energy for our economies. Right? According to the Iaea, the
Speaker 1: share of natural gas, the power mix of Malaysia actually
Speaker 1: fell a little bit between 2000 and five and 2015
Speaker 1: because of declining domestic gas production. So, Malaysia, to some
Speaker 1: extent is reliant on coal and your PM has said
Speaker 1: he hopes to replace coal power plants with gas fired plants,
Speaker 1: how will this transition take place do you have a
Speaker 1: goal in your own mind as to how quickly this
Speaker 1: can realistically take place? And I suppose as we've said earlier,
Speaker 1: these are going to be depend on quite significant shifts
Speaker 1: in the Malaysian economic structure. If they're going to move
Speaker 1: away from emissions intensive power plants such as the coal
Speaker 1: fire ones.
Speaker 2: If you look at the policy documents or the commitments
Speaker 2: by people in Putrajaya, you are very encouraged and what's
Speaker 2: going to happen. But the devil is in the details
Speaker 2: they always see. And this is now being held by
Speaker 2: the government. I think there is a long term emissions
Speaker 2: development strategy not being developed.
Speaker 2: So they're looking at the details, you know, accounting of
Speaker 2: the sectors including the power sector and this will only
Speaker 2: be finalized in June of 2022. So it'll take a
Speaker 2: while before we can begin to see how are you
Speaker 2: going to prioritize some of these areas coming back to cole?
Speaker 2: This is the challenge. You also see this internationally with
Speaker 2: the southern
Speaker 2: Hike in oil price emphasis on decarbonization across the world,
Speaker 2: including the big players like China. Even when you take
Speaker 2: a close look at the recovery package, you know, of
Speaker 2: many countries, there's one study done, they look at 31
Speaker 2: stimulus packages all over the world.
Speaker 2: It was only a small fraction given to actually renewable
Speaker 2: energy despite what being announced. You know, So there is
Speaker 2: this discrepancy between what is promised and what is being done.
Speaker 2: And this is where I think you need more details
Speaker 2: and the details now being worked out in Malaysia? I
Speaker 2: look at the 12 Malaysia plan, which was released on
Speaker 2: the 27th of september and I was being passed by
Speaker 2: both the genre and the one negara in Malaysia,
Speaker 2: The word circular economy for instance, appeared 79 times. So
Speaker 2: we are not worried when it comes to government commitment
Speaker 2: on paper, but we are very interested to see and
Speaker 2: we should be part and parcel to help the government
Speaker 2: to really work out the details coming back to court.
Speaker 2: Even the big players like DNA Malaysia is paying more
Speaker 2: attention to recently. I was in a webinar
Speaker 2: and they have a new section that looks at decarbonization.
Speaker 2: So it is being worked out I believe. But uh,
Speaker 2: one important point that we should note
Speaker 2: the past two years that you said has brought in
Speaker 2: new players into this climate change policy domain. The challenge
Speaker 2: is to get everyone together and to work with the
Speaker 2: government to detail out so that it won't just be greenwashing.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you raised the point about what we were
Speaker 1: supposed to be a green recovery right? As we had
Speaker 1: hoped last year, at the height of the covid pandemic,
Speaker 1: there were suggestions that there will be a surgeon sort
Speaker 1: of economic stimulus is that were green and sustainable, but
Speaker 1: you know, maybe it hasn't worked out as well as
Speaker 1: we would have hoped on the issue of renewables and
Speaker 1: hopefully we're getting there sooner rather than later. Where do
Speaker 1: you think renewables will stand in Malaysia's plans to go
Speaker 1: carbon neutral at some point in time,
Speaker 1: It wants 31% of installed power capacity to be renewable.
Speaker 1: So this includes hydropower in the longer term. As long
Speaker 1: as you would like whether you see hydro plus solar
Speaker 1: and wind for a country like Malaysia
Speaker 2: hydropower, the big potential has always been in peninsula also
Speaker 2: in Strada and also some
Speaker 2: we are left with the mini hydropower plants. There are
Speaker 2: still potential in states like there are for instance has
Speaker 2: great potential for media hydro and that now is being
Speaker 2: developed by the private sector with government on the wind site. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: Peninsular Malaysia does not sit in the wind region if
Speaker 2: you like, you know, there's a measure one or two
Speaker 2: m so we are not in that map. So we
Speaker 2: are in a low wind potential area in someone there
Speaker 2: is that potential that is now being developed as well.
Speaker 2: I was made to understand recently, the company that has
Speaker 2: just signed on for the development of wind power in
Speaker 2: Sabah solar, there is a spike and interest on large
Speaker 2: scale solar systems. Of course there are other issues related
Speaker 2: to that, you know, with land use tension and all that.
Speaker 2: But there is that growing interest in that area as well.
Speaker 2: The question is, how do you bring everything together again?
Speaker 2: This is where we need a new entity that brings
Speaker 2: together the different players. Government is in the midst of
Speaker 2: coming up with a center on climate change. This should
Speaker 2: be able to bring a different players together. But again,
Speaker 2: it's not going to happen overnight. So we have to
Speaker 2: look for another year or two more years before this
Speaker 2: can happen.
Speaker 1: You know, countries like us here in Singapore have been
Speaker 1: looking increasingly into the even part of renewable and cleaner
Speaker 1: energies from other countries. Do you think that this is
Speaker 1: something that Malaysia may be looking at two importing more
Speaker 1: clean renewable energy and how would you think this will
Speaker 1: balance between its own domestic capabilities with fossil fuels with
Speaker 1: renewables plus the potential to
Speaker 1: import, would that be an option ever? You think
Speaker 2: that has not been discussed widely as yet in Malaysia
Speaker 2: will say because we still think that we are a
Speaker 2: resource rich country and everything should be produced here. But
Speaker 2: just to add to my earlier point about solar in
Speaker 2: particular is that I remember a senior bureaucrat once said
Speaker 2: that not all electrons are created equal,
Speaker 2: there is this question of stability, you know, and intermittent
Speaker 2: sea of solar for instance. Yeah, the way forward for
Speaker 2: Malaysia is to really look at the technical details and
Speaker 2: work out how the loose and can be tightened up
Speaker 2: rather than importing. I think that's a different scenario demolition
Speaker 2: Singapore there, you
Speaker 1: know, one of the
Speaker 1: things that were raised most recently was obviously the role
Speaker 1: of a carbon tax in helping Malaysia reached its goals
Speaker 1: in the longer term.
Speaker 1: Carbon taxes everywhere are always going to be controversial politically.
Speaker 1: Even here in Singapore, there's always going to be some
Speaker 1: pushback there. How is the Malaysian government you think going
Speaker 1: to transition away from as it stands now, even fossil
Speaker 1: fuel subsidies towards, you know, the opposite end of the
Speaker 1: political spectrum or policy spectrum
Speaker 1: towards taxing fossil fuel consumption,
Speaker 1: Is this going to be difficult, you think?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not going to be a walk in the garden,
Speaker 2: but the government has mentioned this and there's also think
Speaker 2: tanks like the indian Institute for instance, has sort of
Speaker 2: worked out a detail for what amount of carbon price
Speaker 2: should Malaysia explore in the next few years, because we
Speaker 2: are now looking at sort of expanding our fiscal space
Speaker 2: in Malaysia and the Ministry of Finance is seriously looking
Speaker 2: at the introduction of carbon tax. But the question is,
Speaker 2: what is the pricing and what is the mechanism that's
Speaker 2: still being worked out?
Speaker 2: In addition to that, is the announcement by the government
Speaker 2: of the domestic emissions trading scheme or the E. T. S.
Speaker 2: So there is to boost the sort of carbon exchange
Speaker 2: domestically as well. So, these are the kind of ideas
Speaker 2: in the pipeline, which we're really excited to see how
Speaker 2: this will turn out introduction of new text in the
Speaker 2: current situation is not going to be very popular,
Speaker 2: especially if election is just around the corner. We will
Speaker 2: have to be very patient in seeing the production of
Speaker 2: these new measures in Malaysia, but the fact that we
Speaker 2: are talking about it seriously and I would also happen
Speaker 2: to add that the Ministry of Finance in Malaysia has
Speaker 2: been very proactive in the past two years,
Speaker 2: looking at, you know, how the environment can be part
Speaker 2: and parcel of the new fiscal regime and all that
Speaker 2: for instance, uh in the latest budget, there's a mention
Speaker 2: of the ecological transfer
Speaker 2: scheme involving the states,
Speaker 2: so they will be very proactive, usually would be a
Speaker 2: bit ambivalent about all these things and we have the
Speaker 2: economic planning unit in Malaysia that will be pushing for
Speaker 2: greener measures. But now we are seeing even the Minister
Speaker 2: of Finance under the leadership of who's a friend who's
Speaker 2: a banker, I think the banking sector is also responding
Speaker 2: very aggressively in the sustainability domain. He brings that culture
Speaker 2: into Ministry of Finance
Speaker 1: Here in Singapore from the time that the hint was dropped,
Speaker 1: that there will be a carbon tax to eventually setting
Speaker 1: the rate and then, which was relatively low in the
Speaker 1: first place, five Singapore dollars. And then now for the
Speaker 1: Hindus they will indeed go up even more in the
Speaker 1: coming years that took some time.
Speaker 1: So I suspect it will probably take as long as
Speaker 1: that for Malaysia to, but it'll be interesting to see
Speaker 1: eventually how the rates in the two countries sort of
Speaker 1: feed off each other because I suppose there will have
Speaker 1: to be some degree of looking over the shoulder and
Speaker 1: seeing what each country does and hopefully there'll be some
Speaker 1: room for cooperation as well when it comes to emissions
Speaker 1: trading schemes and things like that. I wanted to transition
Speaker 1: out to our last couple of questions. And one of
Speaker 1: the things that you raise very early on in our
Speaker 1: conversation was Malaysia's flow on the international stage where it
Speaker 1: has in the past being at the forefront with fellow
Speaker 1: developing countries in ensuring that the interests are met and considered.
Speaker 1: For example, the international negotiations, Are you keeping an eye
Speaker 1: on what's happening or what's going to happen in Glasgow.
Speaker 1: And when you think about what Malaysia can do and
Speaker 1: what other developing countries want to see happen from cop 26,
Speaker 1: how do you think it's gonna pan out and what
Speaker 1: do you think it's a good outcome for Malaysia?
Speaker 2: The financing dimension of the negotiation will be very important
Speaker 2: and very important thing to watch for the developing countries
Speaker 2: in particular, for those who have been observing the development,
Speaker 2: of course are our best bet is to be cautiously
Speaker 2: optimistic because we've seen what happened in Copenhagen, but now
Speaker 2: it's also a very challenging time given that we are
Speaker 2: just reeling from the impact of pandemic globally and
Speaker 2: most countries are struggling with the basics of vaccines and
Speaker 2: burden on the fiscal space. So in fact, Malaysia is
Speaker 2: also sending a smaller delegation to Glasgow this year
Speaker 2: compared to previous years and I presume it's going to
Speaker 2: be the same for other developing countries as well. But
Speaker 2: we also see more commitments this part of what awful
Speaker 2: things that's happening out there. There there greater commitments by
Speaker 2: many developing countries. I'm cautiously optimistic on the outcome, but
Speaker 2: we are hoping the big countries will commit more given
Speaker 2: that the rest of the world is really really from
Speaker 2: the impact of pandemic.
Speaker 1: As a final question then, you know, maybe you can
Speaker 1: give us a little bit of insight into domestically, how
Speaker 1: the Malaysian people and you made a brief reference to
Speaker 1: this in terms of the ngos that have emerged and
Speaker 1: are playing stronger and stronger roles. Everyone has come through
Speaker 1: quite a hard period the last 18 months or so
Speaker 1: with COVID, Malaysia has also had a certain degree of
Speaker 1: political uncertainty.
Speaker 1: How difficult is it to move beyond this? Start pushing
Speaker 1: the climate agenda again and then do you think there's
Speaker 1: going to be as well? A dynamic between the federal
Speaker 1: government's goals and where does the state governments lie as
Speaker 1: well in pushing climate and sustainability agendas? Will they have
Speaker 1: the support of the people?
Speaker 1: Is there enough interest going forward in the, in the
Speaker 1: coming years?
Speaker 2: The debate on climate change tends to be l centric,
Speaker 2: I would say, but the impact is being felt by
Speaker 2: people in the rural areas as well, you know, for instance,
Speaker 2: in places like where I am from, there has been
Speaker 2: a number of drop events that it cost two planting
Speaker 2: seasons to be missed
Speaker 2: and that has caused a great deal of suffering for
Speaker 2: the people there. And if you go to the, on
Speaker 2: the ground, you know, particularly during drought time, you can
Speaker 2: see that the agricultural sector is suffering particularly for the
Speaker 2: rice planting areas of the grand jury areas in Malaysia,
Speaker 2: there must be an effort to communicate this to the
Speaker 2: broader public and I think the growth of more ngos
Speaker 2: coming to the fore is something healthy.
Speaker 2: But the other thing is also expected to be hydrological certainties.
Speaker 2: The flood zones in Malaysia is expanding. For instance, there
Speaker 2: is one study that looked at the expansion of super hot,
Speaker 2: flat prone area, so we are going to see about 200%
Speaker 2: increase in this area by 2030, similarly in quarantine, so
Speaker 2: more people will be affected by floods
Speaker 2: and we have to make this discourse something that matters
Speaker 2: to everyone, not just among the putrajaya bubble or the banks,
Speaker 2: a bubble of Malaysia,
Speaker 2: more communication is needed. Most importantly, Jamie, if we have
Speaker 2: to have a strong voice, environmental voice in the august
Speaker 2: House of Parliament. Currently we don't have anyone championing environment
Speaker 2: strategically in the parliament. Hopefully the election simulation public will
Speaker 2: elect
Speaker 2: more environmentally conscious people to be the member of Parliament
Speaker 1: on that. Very slightly more optimistic note. Best of luck
Speaker 1: to you and Malaysia as well, has Rhiannon. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much.
Speaker 2: Thank you, jimmy
Speaker 1: and thanks for listening to the climate conversations. Stay up
Speaker 1: today on CNN's coverage of climate change on sienna dot asia.
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Speaker 1: Christina robert, lynch tooling and Aaron Low and I'm Jamie
Speaker 1: Ho till next week.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.