1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,250 Speaker 1: This is a C. N. A. Podcast. 2 00:00:04,740 --> 00:00:08,330 Speaker 1: Research on mental health issues in Singapore makes for quite 3 00:00:08,340 --> 00:00:12,750 Speaker 1: tedious reading every other statistic sounds dire. One in three 4 00:00:12,750 --> 00:00:16,770 Speaker 1: young people say they've experienced symptoms such as anxiety, sadness 5 00:00:16,770 --> 00:00:19,779 Speaker 1: and loneliness. The biggest cause of death among the young 6 00:00:19,790 --> 00:00:24,420 Speaker 1: aged 10 to 19 remains suicide. Perhaps our mental health 7 00:00:24,420 --> 00:00:28,180 Speaker 1: struggles were swimming silently all these years but the pandemic 8 00:00:28,190 --> 00:00:32,059 Speaker 1: cracked open that crevice and out tumbled all our biggest 9 00:00:32,070 --> 00:00:34,590 Speaker 1: struggles from being unable to cope at work 10 00:00:34,685 --> 00:00:37,275 Speaker 1: at home and at school. Since then though there has 11 00:00:37,275 --> 00:00:39,355 Speaker 1: been a huge shift from the way we approach this 12 00:00:39,354 --> 00:00:43,074 Speaker 1: important topic. The government is committing more resources. Schools are 13 00:00:43,075 --> 00:00:46,254 Speaker 1: becoming much more aware of how stress affects students and 14 00:00:46,255 --> 00:00:49,065 Speaker 1: workplaces are ramping up efforts to keep a lid on 15 00:00:49,065 --> 00:00:52,545 Speaker 1: burnout in today's episode of Heart of the matter. We 16 00:00:52,545 --> 00:00:55,175 Speaker 1: want to dive into two things that are still preventing 17 00:00:55,175 --> 00:00:58,175 Speaker 1: people from seeking help. The issue of stigma on the 18 00:00:58,175 --> 00:01:01,125 Speaker 1: question of cost and in general, what are some of 19 00:01:01,125 --> 00:01:03,945 Speaker 1: the gaps in our current mental health ecosystem that needs 20 00:01:03,945 --> 00:01:04,625 Speaker 1: closing 21 00:01:05,580 --> 00:01:10,050 Speaker 1: with me in the studio today are Dr Seuss, head 22 00:01:10,050 --> 00:01:14,630 Speaker 1: of psychiatry at Alexandra Hospital and senior consultant at any age. Hi, 23 00:01:14,630 --> 00:01:18,450 Speaker 1: happy to be here. We have Executive director limitless, a 24 00:01:18,450 --> 00:01:21,910 Speaker 1: nonprofit organization that works with young people. Hi thanks for 25 00:01:21,910 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: inviting me and Chaoyang lu founder of Over the Rainbow 26 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: and a parent who lost 27 00:01:26,420 --> 00:01:28,220 Speaker 1: his only child to suicide. 28 00:01:28,230 --> 00:01:30,170 Speaker 2: Hello, everybody happy to be here 29 00:01:30,180 --> 00:01:32,830 Speaker 1: and I'm your host for this episode. Hotel Edwards. A 30 00:01:32,830 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: warm welcome. Each and every one of you now perhaps 31 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,660 Speaker 1: for a start, let's just sort of go around the 32 00:01:38,660 --> 00:01:40,580 Speaker 1: table just to get a quick response from each and 33 00:01:40,580 --> 00:01:43,899 Speaker 1: every one of you. What have you learned about mental 34 00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:47,260 Speaker 1: health in Singapore on the back of this pandemic 35 00:01:47,570 --> 00:01:49,330 Speaker 1: dr So you want to begin with? I think during 36 00:01:49,330 --> 00:01:52,550 Speaker 1: the pandemic, a lot of people have difficult times move 37 00:01:52,550 --> 00:01:57,030 Speaker 1: on from those con yellow to orange, people are panicking, 38 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: trying to work through zoom H. B. L. People are anxious, 39 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,300 Speaker 1: we are worried about the conditions as well. So I 40 00:02:04,300 --> 00:02:07,809 Speaker 1: think mental health becomes quite a red flag, people take 41 00:02:07,810 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: in 42 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,369 Speaker 1: In that. I think that has been the conversations that 43 00:02:10,370 --> 00:02:12,970 Speaker 1: we've been hearing during the pandemic period. And is that 44 00:02:12,970 --> 00:02:15,490 Speaker 1: something you see Asher when you see these young people 45 00:02:15,500 --> 00:02:19,930 Speaker 1: coming over to limitless. Yeah, totally. And what happened was 46 00:02:19,940 --> 00:02:23,340 Speaker 1: that we really recognized that in Singapore, the mental health 47 00:02:23,340 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: sector and system was not ready for the pandemic because 48 00:02:27,010 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: all of us were overwhelmed. Just that limitless. We had 49 00:02:30,330 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 1: over 200% increase of young people reaching out to us 50 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: for help 51 00:02:34,980 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: And that's a huge number. 200%. Yeah, it went from 52 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:43,940 Speaker 1: about 373-930 youths in one year. And was that also 53 00:02:43,940 --> 00:02:46,380 Speaker 1: what you see at your organization this 54 00:02:46,380 --> 00:02:49,770 Speaker 2: year is our 10 year anniversary of the rainbow. Thank you. 55 00:02:49,770 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: So we're seeing a lot over the past 10 years, 56 00:02:51,740 --> 00:02:54,290 Speaker 2: telling people when we started working public. count on two 57 00:02:54,290 --> 00:02:57,070 Speaker 2: fingers how many organizations were involved in youth mental wellness 58 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:58,109 Speaker 2: were one of them. 59 00:02:58,470 --> 00:03:00,350 Speaker 2: So we've seen a lot over the past 10 years, 60 00:03:00,350 --> 00:03:02,650 Speaker 2: especially over the pandemic. I mean, I think the numbers 61 00:03:02,650 --> 00:03:05,700 Speaker 2: are well documented as the youth and the elderly who 62 00:03:05,700 --> 00:03:06,300 Speaker 2: have been 63 00:03:06,630 --> 00:03:09,870 Speaker 2: most adversely affected. And the numbers are big in the 64 00:03:09,870 --> 00:03:12,950 Speaker 2: middle of pandemic. We launched a new service called OTR 65 00:03:12,950 --> 00:03:17,010 Speaker 2: Listen OTR Over the Rainbow OTR Listens, which is online, 66 00:03:17,010 --> 00:03:20,810 Speaker 2: real time text based chat service they help the youth. 67 00:03:20,820 --> 00:03:24,050 Speaker 2: We launched at the beginning of 2021. It was during 68 00:03:24,050 --> 00:03:27,709 Speaker 2: the depth of pandemic and within the past year and 69 00:03:27,710 --> 00:03:29,100 Speaker 2: a half, you know, it's become one of the go 70 00:03:29,100 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 2: to place for young people to come and it's not 71 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: a crisis hotline, it's for them to just kind of 72 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:34,260 Speaker 2: come and 73 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,330 Speaker 2: air out there and what's on their chest, the concerns, 74 00:03:37,340 --> 00:03:40,660 Speaker 2: giving them some emotional support, just listen to them and 75 00:03:40,660 --> 00:03:42,660 Speaker 2: hopefully they can move on with their life 76 00:03:42,670 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: because surely by the time it gets to crisis, like 77 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,090 Speaker 1: a full blown mental health crisis that might be a 78 00:03:48,090 --> 00:03:50,890 Speaker 1: tad too late. And as you've mentioned, all these, you know, 79 00:03:50,890 --> 00:03:53,910 Speaker 1: shocking numbers, this big jump, we've seen in, you know, 80 00:03:53,910 --> 00:03:58,310 Speaker 1: young people, elderly people seeking help for their mental issues, 81 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,740 Speaker 1: the government is definitely concerned and it's not just sort 82 00:04:01,740 --> 00:04:03,870 Speaker 1: of the numbers that, you know, we have been seeing, 83 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,900 Speaker 1: it's also I guess a recognition that more needs to 84 00:04:06,900 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: be done. So I want to bring you in again, 85 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,210 Speaker 1: dr Sue because I understand that you've set up the 86 00:04:11,210 --> 00:04:15,410 Speaker 1: Nuhs psychiatry services at Alexandra Hospital at the same time, 87 00:04:15,410 --> 00:04:19,340 Speaker 1: Tan taxing, they've unveiled Singapore's first trans disciplinary psychiatric care 88 00:04:19,339 --> 00:04:22,830 Speaker 1: model to basically strengthen support for patients in this community. 89 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,900 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if you could give us a sense 90 00:04:25,910 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: of where mental health sits in the broader health care 91 00:04:29,250 --> 00:04:32,780 Speaker 1: system in Singapore, people are recognizing it's important 92 00:04:32,970 --> 00:04:37,030 Speaker 1: and we've been trying to beef up all these corporations 93 00:04:37,029 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: with the committee partners. We've been working quite closely with 94 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,990 Speaker 1: community partners on the ground, the counselors and family service 95 00:04:43,990 --> 00:04:48,370 Speaker 1: centers over the years, we've been training GPS to recognize 96 00:04:48,380 --> 00:04:52,390 Speaker 1: mental health conditions to treat mild and moderate mental health conditions. So, 97 00:04:52,390 --> 00:04:54,589 Speaker 1: this has been what I've been trying to do. So 98 00:04:54,589 --> 00:04:57,330 Speaker 1: we'll probably be doing the same thing in alexandria hospitals, 99 00:04:57,330 --> 00:05:00,470 Speaker 1: this whole trust, what we call the Nuhs community Mental 100 00:05:00,470 --> 00:05:02,450 Speaker 1: health Services 101 00:05:02,670 --> 00:05:05,790 Speaker 1: Asher, when you've mentioned that you've seen this huge jump 102 00:05:05,790 --> 00:05:08,570 Speaker 1: of young people coming to you. What are the biggest 103 00:05:08,570 --> 00:05:11,350 Speaker 1: challenges they're facing? I mean, you've mentioned is it anxiety 104 00:05:11,350 --> 00:05:14,620 Speaker 1: issues to do with school to do with home based learning. Actually, 105 00:05:14,620 --> 00:05:17,010 Speaker 1: anxiety is one of the top three that we see. 106 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: We've seen quite a huge jump in youth who struggle 107 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: with mood disorders or symptoms of mood disorders, things like 108 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: adjustment disorder, depression, anxiety is also one of the things 109 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,150 Speaker 1: that young people struggle with. And we see more of 110 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:33,510 Speaker 1: that in the past couple of years, 111 00:05:33,970 --> 00:05:34,570 Speaker 2: surprisingly, 112 00:05:34,570 --> 00:05:38,110 Speaker 1: we also saw a large increase in trauma related issues 113 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:43,650 Speaker 1: increase in youth to struggle with trauma who are being abused. 114 00:05:43,660 --> 00:05:46,849 Speaker 1: So yeah, those were the top three that we were seeing. 115 00:05:46,860 --> 00:05:49,270 Speaker 1: And you know earlier you touched upon this whole 116 00:05:49,295 --> 00:05:53,045 Speaker 1: setting up this online community to reach out to all 117 00:05:53,045 --> 00:05:55,955 Speaker 1: the young people. But some people will say if anything 118 00:05:55,955 --> 00:05:58,145 Speaker 1: social media, I mean does it actually help or hinder 119 00:05:58,145 --> 00:06:00,355 Speaker 1: because during the pandemic, a lot of these young people 120 00:06:00,355 --> 00:06:02,435 Speaker 1: are going to social media. It could be a place 121 00:06:02,435 --> 00:06:04,875 Speaker 1: where obviously cyber bullying is a big thing. 122 00:06:04,885 --> 00:06:07,885 Speaker 2: As we know again, well documented, it could be that 123 00:06:07,885 --> 00:06:10,385 Speaker 2: there's good and there's bad associated with. It depends on 124 00:06:10,385 --> 00:06:13,455 Speaker 2: how we use it. Our service is not a social media. 125 00:06:13,455 --> 00:06:17,850 Speaker 2: It's a one on one real time text based chat anonymous. 126 00:06:18,210 --> 00:06:20,340 Speaker 2: So you don't have to disclose who you are. Just 127 00:06:20,339 --> 00:06:21,940 Speaker 2: come to I want to chat with someone. We have 128 00:06:21,940 --> 00:06:24,090 Speaker 2: certain operating out of 12 hours on the weekend hours 129 00:06:24,089 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 2: on weekdays, 130 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: they can come out and chat with someone. This is 131 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,289 Speaker 2: what the service about one sentence about what this agreement 132 00:06:30,290 --> 00:06:32,529 Speaker 2: bank optic goes the chat when they will come up 133 00:06:32,529 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: and they can be immediately chat with the volunteer within seconds. 134 00:06:35,490 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: That's great 135 00:06:36,170 --> 00:06:38,169 Speaker 2: and it's a totally anonymous. So 136 00:06:38,170 --> 00:06:41,210 Speaker 1: that's what you've been hopping anonymous a few times, saying 137 00:06:41,210 --> 00:06:43,740 Speaker 1: that which brings me to what we really want to 138 00:06:43,740 --> 00:06:47,940 Speaker 1: talk about, which is stigma in Singapore questions about stigma 139 00:06:47,940 --> 00:06:51,270 Speaker 1: and dr Sue. According to a 2018 survey conducted by 140 00:06:51,270 --> 00:06:55,130 Speaker 1: the I. M. H. A. Staggering 78.4% nearly 80%. 141 00:06:55,260 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: They did not seek help for a mental health condition. 142 00:06:58,810 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: And this kind of makes me wonder that in Asia 143 00:07:02,529 --> 00:07:05,270 Speaker 1: and Singapore we still have a huge problem that there's 144 00:07:05,270 --> 00:07:09,270 Speaker 1: still such a huge stigma associated with mental health is 145 00:07:09,270 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: still quite a huge problem with stigma. People having fear 146 00:07:12,970 --> 00:07:17,130 Speaker 1: to seek help. They're worried to be discriminated working adults. 147 00:07:17,140 --> 00:07:19,590 Speaker 1: They're always worried whether the boss will find out whether 148 00:07:19,590 --> 00:07:22,190 Speaker 1: they lose their job, whether they should declare whether they 149 00:07:22,190 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: have mental health conditions to interview, 150 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: this has always been a problem. You've sometimes a struggle 151 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,980 Speaker 1: because maybe one of their parents don't believe in the 152 00:07:30,980 --> 00:07:33,950 Speaker 1: concept of mental health and they sometimes have to kind 153 00:07:33,950 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: of try to find ways to get help. So I 154 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,300 Speaker 1: think it might still quite a huge issue and as 155 00:07:40,300 --> 00:07:44,090 Speaker 1: you've mentioned, some parents cannot deal with it. Some parents 156 00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: are just in denial. They think it's a phase. I 157 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:48,290 Speaker 1: think it's just going to disappear and go away or 158 00:07:48,290 --> 00:07:51,110 Speaker 1: just pray that everything will be better. Yellow, Do you 159 00:07:51,110 --> 00:07:52,290 Speaker 1: think that's unfair? 160 00:07:52,670 --> 00:07:55,690 Speaker 2: We do a lot of work with parents over the years, 161 00:07:55,700 --> 00:07:58,110 Speaker 2: but we have a platform for parents. We started the 162 00:07:58,110 --> 00:08:02,110 Speaker 2: parenting symposium to exactly to have this kind of conversation 163 00:08:02,270 --> 00:08:06,010 Speaker 2: with parents and between parents and youth very important that 164 00:08:06,010 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 2: the communication, I don't think it's exactly a fair comparison, 165 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,980 Speaker 2: although we do see cases where parents are lost, they 166 00:08:12,980 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 2: don't know what to do. They're fearful obviously because the 167 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 2: face value, they don't want to disclose, right? So it's 168 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,530 Speaker 2: a bit of denial, that's a bit of shoving under 169 00:08:20,530 --> 00:08:23,660 Speaker 2: the rug, which doesn't help with the problems that youth 170 00:08:23,660 --> 00:08:25,950 Speaker 2: are facing. I think the most important thing I talked 171 00:08:25,950 --> 00:08:29,130 Speaker 2: about it all the time, it's important that the communication 172 00:08:29,140 --> 00:08:31,340 Speaker 2: channel remains open 173 00:08:31,740 --> 00:08:36,819 Speaker 2: between the parents very, very important that the parents should 174 00:08:36,830 --> 00:08:39,170 Speaker 2: be the first, but this is not happening at all. 175 00:08:39,179 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 2: Youth would rather go to the piers, although there's other 176 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,459 Speaker 2: concerns about that, but that should be the first stop. 177 00:08:45,460 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: They should go to parents. The parents are willing not 178 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: to judge them, willing to listen 179 00:08:50,210 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 2: and willing to make them feel safe. This is okay, 180 00:08:52,850 --> 00:08:55,140 Speaker 2: let's do this together. You know, let's work on this together. 181 00:08:55,140 --> 00:08:56,150 Speaker 2: Let's find help for you. 182 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,140 Speaker 1: Yeah, because you know, actually like, you know, when you 183 00:08:58,140 --> 00:09:00,309 Speaker 1: deal with these young people, there's a lot of pressure 184 00:09:00,309 --> 00:09:02,620 Speaker 1: on them. I mean whether it's school and society, it's 185 00:09:02,620 --> 00:09:05,410 Speaker 1: the parents, whether they're preparing for all levels levels I 186 00:09:05,410 --> 00:09:08,030 Speaker 1: be there is this perception that they have to be 187 00:09:08,030 --> 00:09:11,850 Speaker 1: perfect and having mental issues, there's still that association that 188 00:09:11,860 --> 00:09:14,540 Speaker 1: you are ill disciplined, maybe your week will 189 00:09:14,740 --> 00:09:18,150 Speaker 1: you are not strong enough, you know, when the kids 190 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: speak to you, do you get a sense that that's 191 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: what they're going through on one hand, they are worried 192 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,350 Speaker 1: about what their parents will think interestingly enough, right, we're 193 00:09:26,350 --> 00:09:28,890 Speaker 1: getting more and more young people who come in to 194 00:09:28,890 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: us and say like, I don't want my parents to 195 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,510 Speaker 1: know because I'm afraid that it will burden them, you know? 196 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,579 Speaker 1: And then we also have used to come in and 197 00:09:36,580 --> 00:09:39,179 Speaker 1: say that my parents are part of the problem. What 198 00:09:39,179 --> 00:09:40,900 Speaker 1: we also recognizes that 199 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,550 Speaker 1: parents often can be the gatekeepers to their Children's treatment. 200 00:09:46,090 --> 00:09:49,329 Speaker 1: Yeah. On the flip side though, what we're also recognizing 201 00:09:49,330 --> 00:09:51,300 Speaker 1: is that even though gen Z 202 00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:55,630 Speaker 1: is super open about mental health, there's still that self 203 00:09:55,630 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 1: stigma whereby I can help all my friends who might 204 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: be struggling, but it cannot be me. Yeah, cannot be 205 00:10:02,330 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 1: what's really interesting as well that, you know, I was 206 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,790 Speaker 1: reading according to a study, half of millennials, 75% of 207 00:10:08,790 --> 00:10:11,670 Speaker 1: gen Z left their jobs for mental health reasons. Does 208 00:10:11,670 --> 00:10:15,469 Speaker 1: this mean there's a crucial generational shift here towards being 209 00:10:15,470 --> 00:10:18,979 Speaker 1: more cognizant about mental health. We do see quite a 210 00:10:18,980 --> 00:10:19,210 Speaker 1: lot of 211 00:10:19,223 --> 00:10:22,643 Speaker 1: youth getting help. They are more willing to step up 212 00:10:22,653 --> 00:10:27,603 Speaker 1: to consider taking medications. Seeing psychotherapy, something can even name 213 00:10:27,602 --> 00:10:30,773 Speaker 1: the specific type of psychotherapy they want to go, which 214 00:10:30,773 --> 00:10:34,263 Speaker 1: is quite encouraging. So I do see the younger generations 215 00:10:34,263 --> 00:10:38,122 Speaker 1: are more open to getting help in this in this manner. 216 00:10:38,133 --> 00:10:40,023 Speaker 1: Being open is one thing, but I think there's still 217 00:10:40,023 --> 00:10:42,482 Speaker 1: that stigma that fear right? For instance dr sue if 218 00:10:42,482 --> 00:10:45,163 Speaker 1: I make an appointment to see you, we have to register, 219 00:10:45,173 --> 00:10:46,929 Speaker 1: it's all gonna be recorded in the 220 00:10:46,946 --> 00:10:50,006 Speaker 1: system and there is this fear of being tracked you 221 00:10:50,006 --> 00:10:52,206 Speaker 1: know or or having a record and then that would 222 00:10:52,206 --> 00:10:54,866 Speaker 1: feel like it's a black mark on their resume. Just 223 00:10:54,866 --> 00:10:58,506 Speaker 1: to clarify this is not true. Medical information is confidential. 224 00:10:58,506 --> 00:11:01,646 Speaker 1: We don't go around telling people about it unless the 225 00:11:01,655 --> 00:11:04,596 Speaker 1: person give us permission to. All right, thank you for 226 00:11:04,606 --> 00:11:07,736 Speaker 1: really putting it out there. That it's a myth. Alright 227 00:11:07,736 --> 00:11:11,386 Speaker 1: so all that information and all that record is actually 228 00:11:11,396 --> 00:11:14,666 Speaker 1: confidential unless the patient themselves to choose to release it. 229 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,140 Speaker 1: If you do seek help in a community setting as well, 230 00:11:18,150 --> 00:11:21,710 Speaker 1: like for example limitless smh clarity, you know, one of 231 00:11:21,710 --> 00:11:26,069 Speaker 1: the community agencies out there, our case notes also confidential. Yeah. 232 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: So no matter where you go there is no record 233 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,350 Speaker 1: that your future employer can pull out. 234 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,950 Speaker 1: That is very comforting for our listeners out there. Obviously 235 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: cost is a very important topic which we will get 236 00:11:39,290 --> 00:11:41,580 Speaker 1: onto next. But just before we move on to that 237 00:11:41,590 --> 00:11:45,860 Speaker 1: if each of you had one wish about dealing with stigma, 238 00:11:45,870 --> 00:11:47,820 Speaker 1: what would it be? And let's start with you. 239 00:11:47,830 --> 00:11:50,230 Speaker 2: We worked with quite a few young people kids have 240 00:11:50,230 --> 00:11:52,430 Speaker 2: school age and one of the challenges that we hear 241 00:11:52,429 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 2: is that most do not want to go see a 242 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,170 Speaker 2: school counselor when they 243 00:11:56,350 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 2: counter issue. They did not want to be seen school counselor. 244 00:12:00,690 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: So there's a lot of issues around that. So 245 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:04,500 Speaker 1: that's the stigma 246 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:08,429 Speaker 2: that also includes self stigma. So that that's a challenge. 247 00:12:08,429 --> 00:12:10,479 Speaker 2: I think education needs to happen, I think takes a 248 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 2: lot of courage to walk into that counseling 249 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: office, the schools now are picking up on that they 250 00:12:15,610 --> 00:12:17,700 Speaker 2: are and then more needs to be done 251 00:12:17,710 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: and you wish when it comes to stigma, stigma is 252 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,260 Speaker 1: the same as it's always been in the past, maybe 253 00:12:24,260 --> 00:12:26,260 Speaker 1: five years that one day 254 00:12:26,420 --> 00:12:29,550 Speaker 1: we'll be able to have a society in Singapore whereby 255 00:12:29,550 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: someone says like, oh, I'm going to see my therapist, 256 00:12:31,850 --> 00:12:36,490 Speaker 1: the response is not for the responses. So that was good, 257 00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:39,610 Speaker 1: recommended to me and doctor. So, I mean, is there 258 00:12:39,610 --> 00:12:42,030 Speaker 1: a sense that nordic countries for instance, I mean, they're 259 00:12:42,030 --> 00:12:44,460 Speaker 1: more advanced when it comes to providing that sort of 260 00:12:44,460 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: a support? There's less stigma. Do you think that it's 261 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: because of this culture, we're in always having to be perfect, 262 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,410 Speaker 1: losing face, cannot lose face. And that stigma has to go, 263 00:12:56,580 --> 00:12:59,900 Speaker 1: that applies for some parents? Yes, they want things to 264 00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:03,420 Speaker 1: be perfect, you know, I think having a mental health 265 00:13:03,429 --> 00:13:06,340 Speaker 1: will be attained, you know, to the record, but also 266 00:13:06,340 --> 00:13:09,620 Speaker 1: there are parents who think otherwise who are very open 267 00:13:09,620 --> 00:13:13,309 Speaker 1: and willing to ascend this, I think case by case basis. 268 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,430 Speaker 1: Singapore is generally moving in the right directions. People tend 269 00:13:17,429 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: to be a bit more open. There are more parents 270 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:20,690 Speaker 1: coming to tell me that 271 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,470 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm quite happy for my kid to see you. 272 00:13:23,470 --> 00:13:26,220 Speaker 1: Please do whatever you need. But of course there's still 273 00:13:26,220 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: some selected parents who still because of past experience or 274 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,570 Speaker 1: they themselves have some difficulties before and they still feel 275 00:13:33,570 --> 00:13:37,490 Speaker 1: that maybe mental health is not the way to go. So, 276 00:13:37,490 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: but it's a good sign that you're seeing more parents 277 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,510 Speaker 1: moving in that direction trying to render help to their kids. 278 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,780 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Adrian Tan and I'm Christina robert. We are 279 00:13:50,780 --> 00:13:50,900 Speaker 1: the 280 00:13:50,900 --> 00:13:52,620 Speaker 2: host of a new podcast called 281 00:13:52,620 --> 00:13:55,380 Speaker 1: working. We're here to get into the essential things that 282 00:13:55,380 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: no one tells you about working and company culture from 283 00:13:58,250 --> 00:14:01,810 Speaker 1: office politics to dealing with burnout. If you've ever wanted 284 00:14:01,809 --> 00:14:04,940 Speaker 1: to eavesdrop on an interesting conversation by the water cooler. 285 00:14:04,950 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: This podcast is for you look out for our episodes 286 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast. 287 00:14:13,690 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna have to touch on cost now, right, 288 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,830 Speaker 1: that is one topic that's not easy to handle. But 289 00:14:19,830 --> 00:14:22,380 Speaker 1: we have to ask it anyway because the common perception 290 00:14:22,380 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: here is that, you know, if you want to seek 291 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,030 Speaker 1: help in a public setting, you have to wait very long, 292 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,410 Speaker 1: some something like three months. You know, if you go 293 00:14:28,410 --> 00:14:31,250 Speaker 1: through the poly cleaning route and get a referral and 294 00:14:31,250 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: all that and then if you want to go via 295 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,250 Speaker 1: the private route it will be faster. But you could 296 00:14:36,260 --> 00:14:39,710 Speaker 1: end up paying two or even three times more. So 297 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,330 Speaker 1: dr Sue do you agree? That's an accurate description. 298 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:47,020 Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Our wait time is to constantly challenge numerous 299 00:14:47,020 --> 00:14:48,630 Speaker 1: KPI s to make sure that we move in the 300 00:14:48,630 --> 00:14:51,710 Speaker 1: right direction on the ground. We are working very hard. 301 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,740 Speaker 1: What we try to do is we have some trash system. 302 00:14:54,750 --> 00:14:58,150 Speaker 1: Those who have urgent needs, they visit the emergency room, 303 00:14:58,150 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: we'll try to bring the appointments in. It's partly what 304 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: we're trying to do in this as captain assessment shared 305 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: care team to fast track cases. Either for our poly clinics, 306 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: colleagues on 307 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: GPS or even for com partners such as care is 308 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,330 Speaker 1: being rendered to these people in need despite the long 309 00:15:16,330 --> 00:15:19,540 Speaker 1: wait time. And you just want to talk about that 310 00:15:19,550 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: time when your son he became ill. I'm wondering in 311 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,130 Speaker 1: terms of the cost and the experience and the journey 312 00:15:27,130 --> 00:15:30,710 Speaker 1: of it. What was the most insightful thing that you 313 00:15:30,710 --> 00:15:33,239 Speaker 1: can share that will help our listeners? 314 00:15:33,250 --> 00:15:35,820 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, okay. Uh 315 00:15:37,540 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 2: This is what happened right? He actually felt ill when 316 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 2: he was studying overseas in the US. 317 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 2: That's when this whole manic depression bipolar came out in 318 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: a big way sophomore year and study in new york 319 00:15:49,250 --> 00:15:51,190 Speaker 2: in the US. We had to bring him home because 320 00:15:51,190 --> 00:15:53,910 Speaker 2: he was so destructive. So he stayed with us at 321 00:15:53,910 --> 00:15:56,630 Speaker 2: home for 2.5 years to help him recover. So we've 322 00:15:56,630 --> 00:16:00,410 Speaker 2: done everything. Parents. You can imagine that what we tried 323 00:16:00,410 --> 00:16:04,820 Speaker 2: to do that to help him obviously see psychiatrist taking medication, 324 00:16:04,830 --> 00:16:09,830 Speaker 2: went to see a natural path TCM event, explore different 325 00:16:09,830 --> 00:16:11,700 Speaker 2: ways to help him heal 326 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,890 Speaker 2: actually we try all of that actually turns out he 327 00:16:14,890 --> 00:16:17,930 Speaker 2: had a leaky gut. It's another topic but it 328 00:16:17,930 --> 00:16:18,930 Speaker 1: also added to 329 00:16:18,990 --> 00:16:21,890 Speaker 2: absolutely absolutely. The gut is very important. It's called the 330 00:16:21,890 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 2: second brain you heard about that. You know, it affects 331 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: our mood, everything right? 332 00:16:26,210 --> 00:16:29,020 Speaker 1: And isn't it also true that when you have like 333 00:16:29,020 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: mental health issues sometimes it manifests in different ways like 334 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:32,540 Speaker 1: gastro 335 00:16:32,550 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: problems. Some women have health issues and if you don't 336 00:16:36,130 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: get to the root of the problem, you're just treating 337 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: somebody for a gastro problem. It doesn't quite solve the issue. 338 00:16:41,730 --> 00:16:43,860 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. So that's why we think some of the 339 00:16:43,870 --> 00:16:47,460 Speaker 2: approaches are very promising I think and medication of course 340 00:16:47,470 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 2: there's a need for medication. I won't reveal that. But 341 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 2: I think there are other approaches more holistic approach. Like 342 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 2: for example, 343 00:16:53,570 --> 00:16:56,350 Speaker 2: he went on a very clean diet, no gluten because 344 00:16:56,350 --> 00:17:00,420 Speaker 2: of his gut, drink lots of water, do yoga. There 345 00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:04,710 Speaker 2: are different approaches, no one size fits all for any 346 00:17:04,710 --> 00:17:09,609 Speaker 2: given person, some work with talk therapy, some many medication 347 00:17:09,619 --> 00:17:12,020 Speaker 2: we use other approaches as well. 348 00:17:12,030 --> 00:17:15,820 Speaker 1: All of that. You know sounds very costly. And obviously 349 00:17:15,820 --> 00:17:17,590 Speaker 1: for any parent you would go 350 00:17:17,980 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: to the moon and back for your child. And you know, 351 00:17:20,170 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: money is not an issue, but it is an issue 352 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,740 Speaker 1: for a lot of people, a lot of other people. 353 00:17:24,740 --> 00:17:28,199 Speaker 1: So actually I understand that your nonprofit basically aims to 354 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: help people who don't have the means. So sometimes people 355 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: are equating that, you know, how do you still provide 356 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,959 Speaker 1: quality care if you don't charge personally and limitless, we 357 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,850 Speaker 1: have to find money somewhere else. So we have to 358 00:17:40,850 --> 00:17:42,330 Speaker 1: find funding elsewhere. 359 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,970 Speaker 1: But truth be told, quality care at limitless means that 360 00:17:46,970 --> 00:17:49,770 Speaker 1: we have well trained therapists 361 00:17:50,050 --> 00:17:54,430 Speaker 1: that either social workers counselors or psychologists whereby they provide 362 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,260 Speaker 1: good talk therapy. And also, I think one of the 363 00:17:57,270 --> 00:18:00,170 Speaker 1: things that we also recognize because it's really holistic right, 364 00:18:00,180 --> 00:18:03,190 Speaker 1: it goes beyond that we might need to bring in 365 00:18:03,190 --> 00:18:06,030 Speaker 1: the school, we might need to bring them to the hospital. 366 00:18:06,030 --> 00:18:07,790 Speaker 1: We know we might need to bring in the police, 367 00:18:07,790 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: sometimes we might need to bring in the family really 368 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,870 Speaker 1: case by case basis. Every every child, 369 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: every person is different in terms of cost of treatment 370 00:18:16,770 --> 00:18:21,100 Speaker 1: for unsubsidized treatment. It could come up to $990 per 371 00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:24,580 Speaker 1: month assuming it's once a week seeing a psychiatrist with 372 00:18:24,580 --> 00:18:27,090 Speaker 1: some medication and a subsidized rate is maybe up to 373 00:18:27,090 --> 00:18:30,220 Speaker 1: $400 per month. So it's still quite a chunk dr 374 00:18:30,220 --> 00:18:34,350 Speaker 1: Sue is it also a problem that we don't have 375 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,700 Speaker 1: enough experts because in Singapore. 376 00:18:37,710 --> 00:18:42,210 Speaker 1: Apparently comparing ourselves with, say other similar high income nation. 377 00:18:42,210 --> 00:18:46,790 Speaker 1: Singapore has 2.8 psychiatrists for every 100,000 residents Australia for 378 00:18:46,790 --> 00:18:51,060 Speaker 1: instance has four times that. So there's a shortage of manpower. 379 00:18:51,070 --> 00:18:54,660 Speaker 1: Most of my colleagues are working very hard, ready um 380 00:18:54,670 --> 00:18:58,180 Speaker 1: some that are overlooking. Sometimes we are taking special requests 381 00:18:58,180 --> 00:19:01,530 Speaker 1: on lunch time. So I think we are short of manpower. 382 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,590 Speaker 1: I think not only us, we are short, even allied 383 00:19:04,590 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 1: health workers, psychologists a great time to see. Our psychologists 384 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,340 Speaker 1: are also very long. I mean this is what I 385 00:19:10,340 --> 00:19:12,870 Speaker 1: mean by the mental health segment was not prepared for 386 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,890 Speaker 1: the pandemic because even at the community, so all of 387 00:19:15,890 --> 00:19:18,770 Speaker 1: us have wait times as well. Yeah, elements of wait 388 00:19:18,770 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: time has gone from zero like immediately. We can see 389 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,460 Speaker 1: you over the last two years, it's now reached like 390 00:19:24,460 --> 00:19:26,630 Speaker 1: six weeks. You have to wait six weeks to see 391 00:19:26,630 --> 00:19:30,390 Speaker 1: someone because we're super overwhelmed right now are waiting list 392 00:19:30,390 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: is 25 people 393 00:19:31,780 --> 00:19:35,170 Speaker 1: at this point. I mean what can be done about that? 394 00:19:35,180 --> 00:19:38,940 Speaker 1: I mean do we need to source for extra manpower 395 00:19:38,950 --> 00:19:41,830 Speaker 1: overseas and that we're talking about trying to bridge the 396 00:19:41,830 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: cost as well. You know, how can we make this 397 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:44,889 Speaker 1: more affordable for Singaporeans? 398 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:47,469 Speaker 2: Can I talk about this topic that's very near to 399 00:19:47,470 --> 00:19:50,950 Speaker 2: my heart and what we do two things. We always 400 00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:53,820 Speaker 2: talk about mental wellness. Not so much mental health, 401 00:19:53,830 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: Mental health, someone like one or zero you have it 402 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,270 Speaker 2: or you don't mental wellness is wherever you are on 403 00:19:59,270 --> 00:20:01,310 Speaker 2: the stage is a journey wherever you're on the stage, 404 00:20:01,310 --> 00:20:04,460 Speaker 2: you can always be better. And it begins with taking 405 00:20:04,460 --> 00:20:08,380 Speaker 2: ownership responsible for your own self care. We pioneer the 406 00:20:08,380 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 2: idea of holistic self care over the rainbow 407 00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:13,530 Speaker 2: and then there's a community model of care that we 408 00:20:13,530 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 2: talked about. So, you know, like some of the community 409 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,570 Speaker 2: and services out there, we have OTR Listens, which is 410 00:20:18,570 --> 00:20:21,010 Speaker 2: the real time. First stop for someone who wanted to 411 00:20:21,020 --> 00:20:23,670 Speaker 2: talk to someone, not a professional, just a volunteer who 412 00:20:23,670 --> 00:20:27,170 Speaker 2: just listen would empathize to something off the chest. The 413 00:20:27,170 --> 00:20:29,740 Speaker 2: first stop and friends and family. Very important part of 414 00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:33,180 Speaker 2: parents being a source of support. Rather the source of burden. 415 00:20:33,950 --> 00:20:34,250 Speaker 2: That's 416 00:20:34,250 --> 00:20:36,550 Speaker 1: an issue though. If as mentioned that they don't want 417 00:20:36,550 --> 00:20:38,460 Speaker 1: to talk to the parents or family first, I'd rather 418 00:20:38,460 --> 00:20:39,940 Speaker 1: speak to an outsider. 419 00:20:39,950 --> 00:20:42,369 Speaker 2: Yes, they do. But I think he needs to change 420 00:20:42,380 --> 00:20:44,130 Speaker 2: because parents need to be the first stop where they'll 421 00:20:44,130 --> 00:20:45,020 Speaker 2: go to, 422 00:20:45,369 --> 00:20:47,090 Speaker 2: I need someone to talk to and help them to 423 00:20:47,090 --> 00:20:49,900 Speaker 2: get help if needed. So parents need to be aware 424 00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:52,230 Speaker 2: need to be educated and all that. So the first 425 00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 2: line is always parents and teachers, schools and because it's 426 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:56,930 Speaker 2: about cost, I have a lot of conversation with a 427 00:20:56,930 --> 00:20:58,820 Speaker 2: lot of people on this. This is one of the 428 00:20:58,820 --> 00:21:02,770 Speaker 2: problems we're trying to solve as well, including dr who 429 00:21:02,770 --> 00:21:05,140 Speaker 2: is the former ceo of I. M. H. And you 430 00:21:05,140 --> 00:21:08,110 Speaker 2: know his head here at the hospital right now. He's 431 00:21:08,109 --> 00:21:11,250 Speaker 2: the ceo I said why is such a dichotomy between 432 00:21:11,250 --> 00:21:12,330 Speaker 2: public cost 433 00:21:12,510 --> 00:21:15,350 Speaker 2: and private costs? You know what the issue is? And 434 00:21:15,350 --> 00:21:18,379 Speaker 2: also what's different between Singapore and Australia is insurance 435 00:21:19,150 --> 00:21:24,020 Speaker 2: in Australia and other western countries. Insurance covers psychiatry and 436 00:21:24,020 --> 00:21:28,980 Speaker 2: psychology visits. Right? So it becomes very affordable for the individual. 437 00:21:28,990 --> 00:21:32,179 Speaker 2: If insurance covers in Singapore only if you're going to 438 00:21:32,180 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 2: a public hospital and see a psychiatrist that doesn't get covered. 439 00:21:35,210 --> 00:21:40,900 Speaker 2: You go see a private counselors, psychologists, insurance doesn't cover that. 440 00:21:40,910 --> 00:21:43,129 Speaker 2: It's a big problem cost right on one and you 441 00:21:43,130 --> 00:21:48,330 Speaker 2: have public long wait time. Everybody's overworked. Including these two guys. Yeah. 442 00:21:49,590 --> 00:21:52,669 Speaker 2: And the private costs like this, right? Because they have 443 00:21:52,670 --> 00:21:54,950 Speaker 2: to cover their costs as well. So the piece that 444 00:21:54,950 --> 00:21:58,859 Speaker 2: needs to come into place the phone places insurance. Okay. 445 00:21:58,859 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 2: And the challenge there is regulation. It's a regulation because 446 00:22:02,530 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 2: still unregulated in the private sector 447 00:22:05,369 --> 00:22:09,540 Speaker 2: because there's so many different practices, So many different certification? 448 00:22:09,550 --> 00:22:11,110 Speaker 2: All kind of stuff. I don't know if I'm right 449 00:22:11,109 --> 00:22:11,430 Speaker 2: on this 450 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,619 Speaker 1: doctor. Is that something that perhaps you wanna weigh in 451 00:22:13,619 --> 00:22:15,790 Speaker 1: here that you think that would make some kind of 452 00:22:15,790 --> 00:22:19,300 Speaker 1: difference if we start becoming that kind of society where 453 00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:22,629 Speaker 1: insurance covers our mental health. There's some degree of truth 454 00:22:22,630 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 1: in there. A lot of our mental health patients are 455 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: concerned about the cause sometimes they will ask which insurance 456 00:22:28,930 --> 00:22:31,419 Speaker 1: company actually covers. You know because you worry if I 457 00:22:31,420 --> 00:22:33,970 Speaker 1: stay for too long will be the cost. And some 458 00:22:33,970 --> 00:22:35,970 Speaker 1: of the youth also talks about that how you affect 459 00:22:35,970 --> 00:22:38,820 Speaker 1: their parents. So I think cost is definitely issue. I'm 460 00:22:38,820 --> 00:22:42,139 Speaker 1: not sure insurance instead. The only means to reduce the 461 00:22:42,140 --> 00:22:46,210 Speaker 1: course in some countries they have huge subsidies for certain 462 00:22:46,210 --> 00:22:49,669 Speaker 1: health services. I think Australia when we did a study visit, 463 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: they actually subsidize a psychologist visit. 464 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,980 Speaker 1: Even a G. P. can refer to a psychologist with 465 00:22:55,980 --> 00:22:59,790 Speaker 1: 10 sessions of subsidized or psychology service, which means that 466 00:22:59,790 --> 00:23:02,370 Speaker 1: they can cash quite early. They don't have to refer 467 00:23:02,369 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: to the services. Know that is something that we can 468 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: look at. 469 00:23:06,290 --> 00:23:09,580 Speaker 1: And the subsidies not only for psychologists in the public 470 00:23:09,580 --> 00:23:12,290 Speaker 1: sector were also in the private sector, which means that 471 00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:17,709 Speaker 1: there's a bigger pool of manpower. Manpower is an issue 472 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: in Singapore by 473 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,650 Speaker 2: the way. Just a point of reference there are because 474 00:23:21,650 --> 00:23:23,810 Speaker 2: that's the space we work in. There are lots of 475 00:23:23,810 --> 00:23:28,210 Speaker 2: private practitioners out there, counselors, you name it less psychologist, 476 00:23:28,210 --> 00:23:31,090 Speaker 2: a lot of counselors, psychotherapists, lots out there. We know 477 00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:32,140 Speaker 2: a lot of them. Yeah. 478 00:23:32,330 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 2: And also a lot of them are under employed. A 479 00:23:35,530 --> 00:23:37,970 Speaker 2: lot of metric. We know that my wife is now 480 00:23:37,980 --> 00:23:40,750 Speaker 2: a counselor, she went to study, got a masters functions, 481 00:23:40,750 --> 00:23:43,380 Speaker 2: she's able to do some freelance work. I think there's 482 00:23:43,380 --> 00:23:46,340 Speaker 2: resources out there, right, This is not being deployed in 483 00:23:46,470 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: just a matter of like consolidating all our resources. Gentlemen 484 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,149 Speaker 1: is a final question for each of you and perhaps 485 00:23:53,150 --> 00:23:53,540 Speaker 1: it's a 486 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,390 Speaker 1: Philosophical one, while we may address the upstream issues of 487 00:23:57,390 --> 00:24:00,710 Speaker 1: cost and stigma, do you think there may be something 488 00:24:00,710 --> 00:24:03,580 Speaker 1: much more fundamental that we need to address to accept 489 00:24:03,580 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: our limits or failure imperfections? I work with young people 490 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,300 Speaker 1: and generally what we're noticing is that young people are 491 00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:13,610 Speaker 1: also a lot more overwhelmed at this point in time, 492 00:24:13,619 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: you could say it's a resilience 493 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,790 Speaker 1: to their hyper connected and they're worried about every single 494 00:24:17,790 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: thing in the world. But realistically, I think they are overwhelmed. 495 00:24:22,170 --> 00:24:25,430 Speaker 1: We can as a society, look at how we can 496 00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:28,580 Speaker 1: reduce the burden on young people. Earlier, we were talking 497 00:24:28,580 --> 00:24:30,629 Speaker 1: about what we can do to reduce the load on 498 00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:34,300 Speaker 1: professionals to some degree years. I think we can get 499 00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:38,060 Speaker 1: more funding into this sector, which would help the hospitals, 500 00:24:38,070 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: which will help us in the community as well. 501 00:24:41,530 --> 00:24:44,250 Speaker 1: We could all do with more colleagues, but at the 502 00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 1: same time, right? The load cannot be fully on the 503 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,090 Speaker 1: mental sector itself because we're talking about one in three 504 00:24:51,090 --> 00:24:53,389 Speaker 1: or one in five, young people are struggling with science 505 00:24:53,390 --> 00:24:55,420 Speaker 1: and symptoms of mental health issues in Singapore. 506 00:24:56,030 --> 00:24:58,780 Speaker 1: What we also need to do is train people in 507 00:24:58,780 --> 00:25:02,250 Speaker 1: the community to provide their support. The first line of 508 00:25:02,250 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: people will be friends, 509 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: then we talk about people who are in a mentor role. 510 00:25:07,250 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: So people like teachers, educators, church leaders, You know, these 511 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: are all folks that we can train to kind of 512 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,180 Speaker 1: provide that supportive role a lot of times this person 513 00:25:20,180 --> 00:25:23,090 Speaker 1: might be struggling, something that's adjustment related and once they 514 00:25:23,090 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: get through the adjustment related issue, right, They may not 515 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,630 Speaker 1: need professional help anymore. Yeah, some final words, 516 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,140 Speaker 2: Yeah. We have a vision of universal mental well being 517 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,060 Speaker 2: That starts with again, I talked about it. This being 518 00:25:38,060 --> 00:25:41,750 Speaker 2: a ecosystem approach. And that journey needs to begin with 519 00:25:41,750 --> 00:25:44,030 Speaker 2: each of us. We got holistic self care. We need 520 00:25:44,030 --> 00:25:46,010 Speaker 2: to own and there's a lot of things you can 521 00:25:46,010 --> 00:25:50,430 Speaker 2: do around that healthy lifestyle, mindfulness, that's 80%. 522 00:25:51,070 --> 00:25:53,930 Speaker 2: I'll take 80%. Most of us will not need to go, 523 00:25:53,930 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 2: you know, to see professional. The other part will be 524 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:58,350 Speaker 2: the I think the I don't know, I don't have 525 00:25:58,350 --> 00:26:08,140 Speaker 2: exact figures. The 15% or 18% will be community support, friends, family, parents, teachers. 526 00:26:08,150 --> 00:26:12,670 Speaker 2: Otr listens some of these service that we talked about 527 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,590 Speaker 2: not nonprofessional, but community-based support. We call this well being champions. 528 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,980 Speaker 2: Most people can become a well being champion. They practice 529 00:26:18,980 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 2: this and they can help people around them. 530 00:26:21,230 --> 00:26:24,830 Speaker 2: Lastly, of course, uh we need, you know, ultimately there's 531 00:26:24,830 --> 00:26:28,330 Speaker 2: still a few percent of unique professional intervention, but for 532 00:26:28,340 --> 00:26:33,290 Speaker 2: us it's always about prevention and prevention over clinical intervention. 533 00:26:33,290 --> 00:26:36,629 Speaker 2: That's very key. Not enough people talk about it, but 534 00:26:36,630 --> 00:26:40,180 Speaker 2: population Mental well being, universal will need that we take 535 00:26:40,180 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 2: more ownership that people around. We need to take ownership 536 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,910 Speaker 2: of well being of people around us 537 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,930 Speaker 2: and then professional can come in for the last mile 538 00:26:47,940 --> 00:26:48,110 Speaker 2: and 539 00:26:48,109 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: professional Doctor Su I'm quite glad to meet these two gentlemen. No, 540 00:26:52,690 --> 00:26:55,780 Speaker 1: seem there are people in the committee that's interested to 541 00:26:55,780 --> 00:27:00,380 Speaker 1: help out. Yes, stress too contributed to all these issues. 542 00:27:00,390 --> 00:27:05,390 Speaker 1: But sometimes beyond mental wellness, people who have mental conditions, 543 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,270 Speaker 1: there are genetic predisposition to eat and do they do 544 00:27:09,270 --> 00:27:10,650 Speaker 1: need some help. They do d 545 00:27:10,670 --> 00:27:13,910 Speaker 1: medications at some point together with work from the community, 546 00:27:13,910 --> 00:27:15,820 Speaker 1: we can kind of reduce the number of people come 547 00:27:15,820 --> 00:27:18,750 Speaker 1: into hospitals, but I do think that some people who 548 00:27:18,750 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 1: still have these mental health issues that needs to be 549 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,429 Speaker 1: treated um They do need medications and not all of 550 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,340 Speaker 1: these work can be done by, you know, still needs 551 00:27:29,340 --> 00:27:31,250 Speaker 1: help us to do this part of the work. 552 00:27:31,420 --> 00:27:34,429 Speaker 2: There's different layers what we call Circle of Care over 553 00:27:34,430 --> 00:27:36,740 Speaker 2: the rainbow. We need to connect the dots. One of 554 00:27:36,740 --> 00:27:39,020 Speaker 2: the ideas that we've been thinking about, in fact, we 555 00:27:39,030 --> 00:27:41,630 Speaker 2: implemented in one of our early versions online support called 556 00:27:41,630 --> 00:27:44,730 Speaker 2: Circle of Care online platform. We need a role called 557 00:27:44,740 --> 00:27:48,930 Speaker 2: Mental Health Concert, help us connect the dots plenty 558 00:27:48,930 --> 00:27:52,070 Speaker 1: to digest. But I think the good news is we 559 00:27:52,070 --> 00:27:55,980 Speaker 1: are on board Singapore and we are getting there slowly 560 00:27:55,980 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: but surely 561 00:27:57,290 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 2: we have a national Task Force on Mental Health. 562 00:28:03,230 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 1: My discussion today has given me an insight into why 563 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,700 Speaker 1: the challenge of dealing with mental health is all hands 564 00:28:09,710 --> 00:28:13,389 Speaker 1: on deck endeavor and whether we are parents placing undue 565 00:28:13,390 --> 00:28:18,270 Speaker 1: pressure or Children, students meeting impossible expectations of themselves or 566 00:28:18,270 --> 00:28:19,540 Speaker 1: workers trying to do what is 567 00:28:19,550 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: beyond their capacity. Thanks to my guests and to our listeners. 568 00:28:23,830 --> 00:28:27,590 Speaker 1: Please share this episode with anyone you feel may benefit 569 00:28:27,590 --> 00:28:32,379 Speaker 1: from it. The team behind this podcast is Jacqueline, chan, Joanne, chan, 570 00:28:32,390 --> 00:28:35,609 Speaker 1: daniel lee and Christina robert and I'm Hotel E Edwards.