Speaker 1: this is a C N A podcast.
Speaker 1: Oliver is 11 years old, hasn't even taken his yet.
Speaker 1: Ellen is 17, hasn't taken my a levels yet is 19,
Speaker 1: hasn't even graduated from university. They shouldn't be having to
Speaker 1: come out here to give speeches because they're worried about
Speaker 1: future without a stable climate.
Speaker 2: That was he was 23 years old giving a speech
Speaker 2: at Singapore's first climate change rally in 2019.
Speaker 2: When you picture young climate activist, you may think of
Speaker 2: Greta thunberg making passionate speeches or being detained by the
Speaker 2: german police at a coal mine protest, but beyond big
Speaker 2: rallies and rousing speeches. Young activists are working hard behind
Speaker 2: the scenes to drive climate action. Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: the climate conversations. I'm your host, julie you
Speaker 2: on today's episode, you'll hear from two young Singaporeans about
Speaker 2: what you don't see about youth, climate activism, their reflections
Speaker 2: and what they hope for in 2023 is the co
Speaker 2: founder of Lepak NSG Andronicus Alvin is a member of
Speaker 2: Singapore Youth for climate action.
Speaker 2: So welcome Xiangtan Ruzicka, thank you both for joining me
Speaker 2: on the climate conversations first. Let me start with you.
Speaker 2: It's great to have you on again. I think the
Speaker 2: last time you were on the show was back in
Speaker 2: 2020 you were 24 then three years on, I mean
Speaker 2: by definition, have you sort of outgrown the age bracket
Speaker 2: of youth activists. Tell me, how do you
Speaker 1: feel?
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think in Singapore we can follow. Nyc
Speaker 1: definition of a youth, so hopefully I'll still be a
Speaker 1: youth activist until I turned 35.
Speaker 2: Okay. 35. All right. So 34 years on how has
Speaker 2: it changed your involvement in climate activism? What sort of
Speaker 2: meaningful outcome have your movement achieved
Speaker 1: having Singapore commit to? Net zero by 2050.
Speaker 1: But that's the climate side of things. For nature side
Speaker 1: of things. I have a team that looks at land use,
Speaker 1: planning and development in Singapore. So, for example, your H
Speaker 1: D B S that's being built or even L ta
Speaker 1: projects like the cross island line and we do also
Speaker 1: managed to change the way they do mitigation and development.
Speaker 2: Okay, chica, I understand you're fairly new to the climate activism.
Speaker 2: See
Speaker 2: I want to know what galvan managed you to join
Speaker 2: the movement and speak up in the first place? I
Speaker 2: think it started off with watching Greta's infamous speech. I
Speaker 2: did a lot of research and then I realized, yeah,
Speaker 2: I would be as passionate as she is and I
Speaker 2: am upset by a lot of things that were going on.
Speaker 2: So I wanted to do more. And so the first
Speaker 2: two or one year was doing a lot of individual
Speaker 2: work
Speaker 2: and studying mall and then I joined a WWF program called,
Speaker 2: we got this which was to rally young people in
Speaker 2: the space who really want to make a difference, I
Speaker 2: guess that was my start. So what would you say
Speaker 2: the areas you're hoping to have the biggest impact on.
Speaker 2: And would you say your target audience is the youth? Yeah.
Speaker 2: Currently I am a core team member at Singapore Youth
Speaker 2: for climate action
Speaker 2: and I think our target audience would probably be the
Speaker 2: youth and I guess the general public and I think
Speaker 2: a lot of the work that we do kind of
Speaker 2: surrounds how do we help the public understand policy making
Speaker 2: because there's a lot of like technical terms and policies
Speaker 2: are not really written in a very easy to understand manner.
Speaker 2: The work that we do is really just to translate
Speaker 2: policies and stuff like that to everyday people so they
Speaker 2: can really understand how these policies are going to impact them.
Speaker 2: The thing is when young people come forward to engage
Speaker 2: and
Speaker 2: anything there quite often met with patronizing responses from their
Speaker 2: elders or adults who often see youth is not knowing
Speaker 2: enough or have no real world experience. How do you
Speaker 2: get grown ups to take you guys seriously?
Speaker 1: So I think for us we do everything science based
Speaker 1: and fact based right, as long as we are talking
Speaker 1: sense and we know what we're talking about. I think
Speaker 1: generally people listen, especially because
Speaker 1: people don't really know much about environmental issues. So even
Speaker 1: something like where does our marine trash come from? People
Speaker 1: always think it's a little from land based sources, but
Speaker 1: actually other activists have done some research and they found
Speaker 1: that actually a lot of marine trash comes from our
Speaker 1: floating fish farms and some also comes from other countries.
Speaker 1: So when we tell people that you shouldn't litter, you
Speaker 1: should also look out for the bigger sources of marine trash,
Speaker 1: not just your personal stuff.
Speaker 1: I guess they'll be convinced by what we say. So
Speaker 1: if you find a fridge on the beach, it's not
Speaker 1: going to come from your house and
Speaker 2: the same challenge of being taken seriously, they may be
Speaker 2: hearing you, but maybe not really listening. Do you know
Speaker 2: what I mean? Does that road your confidence or morale
Speaker 2: over time? How do you overcome that? I think one
Speaker 2: of the things that my team, we've really heard a lot,
Speaker 2: you guys are not pragmatic enough, sometimes it really does
Speaker 2: impact us, right? Because we know,
Speaker 2: you know that we've done our study and thankfully like
Speaker 2: last year leading up to the conference of parties, we
Speaker 2: released green policy paper and then we've had a lot
Speaker 2: of support from like the green community and they're coming
Speaker 2: in to explain a lot of things that we may
Speaker 2: not understand ourselves in certain like areas like corporate responsibility.
Speaker 2: I guess it's really about how can we supplement our
Speaker 2: argument per se so that they don't just see us
Speaker 2: as a
Speaker 2: like emotional, like I feel like emotional as a term
Speaker 2: that like use also a lot of studying and making
Speaker 2: sure that we can evidence whatever we say. Speaking of
Speaker 2: being heard of late, there have been news of a
Speaker 2: new tactic when it comes to finding climate change, throwing
Speaker 2: food at famous paintings in the name of the climate
Speaker 2: crisis for some of us who are used to seeing
Speaker 2: activists holding placards in the street, these stunts maybe
Speaker 2: a bit confounding. What is your view on that or
Speaker 2: there's just attention seekers and can they give activism a
Speaker 2: bad name? What do you think? Would you
Speaker 1: so okay, I definitely wouldn't do this, not in Singapore, right,
Speaker 1: because I'll probably end up in changi prison,
Speaker 1: but honestly, I think it's very context dependent on other
Speaker 1: countries where they have different considerations and if they feel
Speaker 1: it's a legitimate tactic for them, then they're free to
Speaker 1: do it and face the consequences. Well, I personally support
Speaker 1: them doing it. I don't know. I've been thinking about
Speaker 1: this also
Speaker 2: as a fellow activists because their point is to raise
Speaker 2: awareness and draw attention to the climate crisis in a
Speaker 2: nonviolent way.
Speaker 1: I guess from what I see, the outcome that they
Speaker 1: are having is not really more attention to the climate crisis,
Speaker 1: but more people asking why are you being so stupid
Speaker 1: and throwing soup on a painting has never done anything
Speaker 1: to you, stop it. So, if you look at the outcome,
Speaker 1: I think probably isn't an effective tactic for them.
Speaker 2: Would you, would you agree? Yeah, I think context really,
Speaker 2: it definitely does matter a lot. Also thinking from the
Speaker 2: point of activists, I guess for them to throw soup
Speaker 2: at a painting, they have a lot of anger inside them.
Speaker 2: And I feel like whenever we plan something, we really
Speaker 2: have to think about what we want to gain from this,
Speaker 2: it's like do we want people to ask why are
Speaker 2: we throwing soup at a painting? Or do
Speaker 2: we want people to ask, Oh
Speaker 1: yeah,
Speaker 2: like what's happening with climate dresses, so different tactics, different approaches.
Speaker 2: I wonder has your approach to climate activism changed over
Speaker 2: the years? Do you think there's a need to change
Speaker 2: with the times, new developments or challenges? What do you think?
Speaker 1: So I think our approach is generally science based, sex
Speaker 1: based and targeted at the national level, but before you
Speaker 1: were doing this actually we would I guess trying to
Speaker 1: persuade individuals to change their lifestyles. And one thing that
Speaker 1: triggered this change was because I was at a food
Speaker 1: court one day
Speaker 1: And it's a hot day, right? So me and my
Speaker 1: friend wanted to get cold drinks and then we were
Speaker 1: like environmentalists, so we shouldn't use straws. But before we
Speaker 1: could even get to the counter, the lady at the
Speaker 1: counter knocked over an entire container of straws. So I
Speaker 1: guess in three seconds 100 straws were gone. And then
Speaker 1: And then we got thinking right, like, oh if we
Speaker 1: reject a straw every day of our life, maybe you
Speaker 1: can reject 365 straws a year, right? And in three
Speaker 1: seconds someone can undo your efforts and it's because they
Speaker 1: have straws on the table top in the first place, right?
Speaker 1: If we can have systemic change whereby let's say they
Speaker 1: don't give out straws in the first place or they
Speaker 1: hide the straw somewhere
Speaker 1: right? Then actually the amount of change that we can have,
Speaker 1: it's way bigger than just convincing everyone to not use
Speaker 1: straws because they're always be someone who wants the straw.
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 2: think I definitely agree. It brings up like this very
Speaker 2: common debate in activism is individual action better or is
Speaker 2: collective action better. Right? That's the huge mind shift change
Speaker 2: that I had also at the beginning, although I can
Speaker 2: do all these changes sometimes a bigger impact can be
Speaker 2: created when I contribute my resources or like
Speaker 2: my skill sets to I guess like a bigger organization.
Speaker 2: But I also do feel that individual action is what
Speaker 2: gets most people like started on like their journeys right?
Speaker 2: For me, it kind of reminds me why do I
Speaker 2: make these minor changes in my life? I just drop
Speaker 2: in the bucket. Yes. I think that's definitely like one
Speaker 2: thing I like a mind shift change. I think another
Speaker 2: thing for me would be this idea that how involved
Speaker 2: cancers or Corporates get right initially at the start, I
Speaker 2: always saw them as like, oh, it's very different. The
Speaker 2: people
Speaker 2: and the private and the public sector are like very different, right?
Speaker 2: As I grow, I start to realize that the issue
Speaker 2: that we're facing is all hands on deck kind of issue, right?
Speaker 2: And it's like we can't keep working in like separate circles.
Speaker 2: That's an area that I'm particularly very interested to study
Speaker 2: even more. Like how do we get all hands on
Speaker 2: deck and how do we get really the mind shift
Speaker 2: to change from discussions to action? Yeah, I mean you
Speaker 2: guys just mentioned the systematic change in the government and
Speaker 2: corporation level is what's needed. But
Speaker 2: we all know that it's not easy to take on
Speaker 2: these powerful businesses and governments and some critics might say
Speaker 2: that all of these sort of youth led protests have
Speaker 2: done little to sway politics or policies on climate change.
Speaker 2: But
Speaker 2: I want to ask you guys how effective are they really?
Speaker 2: Youth activism.
Speaker 1: Okay. So what context? Sure. For what we do at
Speaker 1: NSG actually I think we've been fairly successful.
Speaker 2: Okay, when
Speaker 1: we first started covering environmental impact assessments, the government and
Speaker 1: the family are basically reached out to us and said
Speaker 1: look we know you're interested in E. I. S. And stuff.
Speaker 1: Can we invite you to some engagement sessions where we
Speaker 1: will share the findings of an E. I. A what
Speaker 1: mitigation measures we're taking to save as many trees as
Speaker 1: we can or build as least destructively as they can.
Speaker 1: We went in and then during these consultations we did
Speaker 1: give some inputs and then when you see the final
Speaker 1: product they really did try to take our input.
Speaker 1: So for example. Okay this one's not from but from
Speaker 1: any young who's a primatologist. She was talking about how
Speaker 1: the L. T. A. Across the line work site should
Speaker 1: be shifted to not affect the habitat of this very
Speaker 1: rare monkey called the raffles banded langur so far across
Speaker 1: the land line they really did shift the work side
Speaker 1: and they tried to reduce the amount of land that
Speaker 1: they would need to deforest for their work sites so
Speaker 1: we can see that yes the construction goes ahead but
Speaker 1: the destruction that they create, it's less than what would
Speaker 1: have been without the inputs of nature groups. I think
Speaker 1: even four years ago they said that zero is impossible.
Speaker 1: It's not practical to have net zero because we have
Speaker 1: our petrol camps,
Speaker 1: how many percent GDP how many 1000 jobs fast forward
Speaker 1: to today and suddenly oh look it's perfectly acceptable for
Speaker 1: us to get to zero right? So things can change
Speaker 1: and they have changed. I wouldn't say like our activism
Speaker 1: has been not effective but it's just sometimes a lot
Speaker 1: of the changes are not seen by people who are
Speaker 1: not part of the process. Yeah
Speaker 2: it takes time doesn't it? Yeah and great efforts.
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Speaker 2: Alright, so Jessica,
Speaker 2: you were in Egypt for last year's cop 27 representing Singapore.
Speaker 2: Obviously there are highs and lows at the event. Some
Speaker 2: of your colleagues and other youth activists I spoke to
Speaker 2: told me that they left energized or while some of
Speaker 2: them said that they became a little bit more jaded
Speaker 2: due to the lack of will and ambition they saw
Speaker 2: from the leaders at the event. What was your experience like?
Speaker 2: Um I guess something that really stuck out to me
Speaker 2: was this jarring disconnect because you have all the
Speaker 2: these negotiators and they're just really making decisions on behalf
Speaker 2: of the countries that ultimately whatever decision that they make
Speaker 2: their will trickle down to people on the ground. You
Speaker 2: see them arguing and arguing over certain texts and certain
Speaker 2: words on the other hand, you have youth activists and
Speaker 2: you have ingenious groups and marginalized groups really just calling
Speaker 2: for urgent action now and it's just like why is
Speaker 2: the process so long? I guess that's the real thing
Speaker 2: that really hit me. And do they really
Speaker 2: see what's going on in the same space? You have
Speaker 2: two different sets of realities. Right. And I guess like
Speaker 2: seeing it for two weeks straight was very, very overwhelming.
Speaker 2: It's like a first time also because it's like oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, absolutely inspiring and frustrating at the same time
Speaker 2: I must say. And big conferences like copper always a
Speaker 2: sobering reminder of just how difficult it is to get
Speaker 2: that genuine climate action.
Speaker 2: And and some young people remain skeptical of these climate conferences,
Speaker 2: big events. What frustrates you and worries you the most.
Speaker 2: I mean would you ever go to a cop event
Speaker 2: anytime soon?
Speaker 1: I might go this year.
Speaker 2: Okay Dubai will
Speaker 1: be there. So I've actually never gone to court previously
Speaker 1: for several reasons. One was because I felt like whatever
Speaker 1: action needs to be taken needs to happen before the
Speaker 1: cop even happens. Right. And that's where I can
Speaker 1: most like pushing people in Singapore like commit to stronger
Speaker 1: targets for example. And then the other thing was because
Speaker 1: international negotiations is very complicated and then there's so many
Speaker 1: environmental issues already learning about and I was like, do
Speaker 1: I want to take up one more?
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. That's why I haven't really gone for previous cops.
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 2: but how about this year
Speaker 1: I was offered an opportunity to go and I thought
Speaker 1: why not
Speaker 2: Cop 28, What would you like to see?
Speaker 1: It is a hard question because I evidently have not
Speaker 1: been following the national negotiations, but
Speaker 2: if your voices can be heard. I mean the good
Speaker 2: thing about last year's cop is that it was the
Speaker 2: very first time Children and young people and having their
Speaker 2: own pavilion a space where they can run their own
Speaker 2: events at cops. So
Speaker 2: Cop 27 If you're there, is there something that you
Speaker 2: would like to address? Who would you say is your
Speaker 2: climate villain? Maybe we can start there. I
Speaker 1: guess the climate villains would be the big oil and
Speaker 1: gas companies
Speaker 1: cool as well.
Speaker 2: The message that you maybe like to get across
Speaker 1: B. L. C.
Speaker 1: Keep everything in the ground because I was reading about
Speaker 1: how some of the oil and gas companies were planning
Speaker 1: to extract even more oil and gas from the ground
Speaker 1: when they publicly committed to net zero targets. I guess
Speaker 1: what their internal documents leaked out and what they publicly
Speaker 1: say don't really tally so keep it in the ground.
Speaker 2: So re chicha for those use out there who not
Speaker 2: only wish to take part and have their voices heard
Speaker 2: but want to
Speaker 2: be a real effective youth activist share with me sort
Speaker 2: of a step by step guide to becoming one where
Speaker 2: should they start I guess for me, I started off
Speaker 2: with studying because like people doing volunteer work maybe to
Speaker 2: get away from studies but studying more studying, I think
Speaker 2: that a lot of great resources, I think industry is
Speaker 2: definitely one of those resources shout out.
Speaker 2: Um but I think you can start with like podcasts
Speaker 2: recommend the climate conversation. There we go.
Speaker 2: Thanks. I think don't be defined by what you think
Speaker 2: that advocacy can be or what traditional forms advocacy is,
Speaker 2: because advocacy really truly comes in like many different ways, right?
Speaker 2: Arts and then you have music and people have different
Speaker 2: strengths and people have different talents. So I think that
Speaker 2: we do in our policy workshop is I guess like
Speaker 2: we help people brainstorm the strength that they have and
Speaker 2: if they can be used
Speaker 2: in movements and how they can be used and we
Speaker 2: do that through a series of discussions with other youths
Speaker 2: for people to understand that activism is not really like
Speaker 2: categories like you're either it's never like you're on the
Speaker 2: streets or you're not on the streets, There's like a
Speaker 2: whole broad spectrum say, well what would you say? How
Speaker 2: loud do you have to be to be heard? You
Speaker 2: have to be a good orator like yourself, be creative,
Speaker 2: tell a good story, surely can be about throwing food
Speaker 2: and artwork or anything.
Speaker 2: What would you say based on your experience?
Speaker 1: So I would think it's more important to know your
Speaker 1: own skills and also to identify gaps in current efforts
Speaker 1: and finding our own. It is very important because there's
Speaker 1: actually so many issues out there that we could be
Speaker 1: working on. Right, not just climate, there's no civil society
Speaker 1: group talking about water security for example, but that's because
Speaker 1: he's doing a great job, I guess even in the
Speaker 1: climate space,
Speaker 1: a lot of people talking about climate mitigation and how
Speaker 1: we should reduce our greenhouse gasses, but we don't really
Speaker 1: think about how we should be doing climate adaptation as
Speaker 1: well because rising sea levels are a thing. The urban
Speaker 1: heat is a thing,
Speaker 1: even vector prevention, like mosquitoes, Dengue, Those are things that
Speaker 1: no one is really talking about in the environmental civil
Speaker 1: society space, people
Speaker 2: can actually relate to.
Speaker 1: So there's so many potential things that people could do
Speaker 1: and what we are working on now is really just
Speaker 1: like a tiny, tiny subset of what needs to be done.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of space for people to come in,
Speaker 1: find your niche, know what your own skills are.
Speaker 1: And you can do something
Speaker 2: as a person who actually launched these sort of movement.
Speaker 2: I've seen many of feel my friends or contacts that
Speaker 2: have tried to rally people, create groups and make movement,
Speaker 2: but they failed. It just ended up being sort of
Speaker 2: fizzle out and became nothing. So what's the best way
Speaker 2: to gather these people with the same mind? Would you
Speaker 2: have like a formula or meet the right people?
Speaker 1: I think everyone
Speaker 1: would have their own way, the way I do, it
Speaker 1: might not work for everyone, but I'm personally very interested.
Speaker 1: So I just ask people, would you like to read
Speaker 1: through 500 pages of environmental impact assessments and then if
Speaker 1: you say yes, welcome. Right. If we keep working on
Speaker 1: something over time we become known for that thing and
Speaker 1: people automatically email into us. Can we join? I guess
Speaker 1: if you just keep working on it and don't give up,
Speaker 1: you'll get somewhere eventually Refik
Speaker 2: a you're also in this journey, what do you think
Speaker 2: will actually incite change based on your experience? I think
Speaker 2: change is like a really big word, right? And I
Speaker 2: guess when we look at change we look at many
Speaker 2: different things, but I feel like an all hands on
Speaker 2: deck approach would be very, very useful. But I suppose
Speaker 2: for the space that I work in which is with community, right.
Speaker 2: I feel like the first step is really to removing
Speaker 2: that barrier for people who may not necessarily have all
Speaker 2: the knowledge, all the skills to come and understand really,
Speaker 2: what is climate change about and why are people doing
Speaker 2: what they do, translating those conversations into action?
Speaker 2: Like how do we get there? That is definitely one
Speaker 2: of the things that could really help with change. That's
Speaker 2: a great point actually. And looking forward seeing 10, where
Speaker 2: would you like to see this youth climate activism movement
Speaker 2: go
Speaker 1: next forward?
Speaker 1: Okay, seriously though, I guess we should be looking more
Speaker 1: into Corporates rather than just the government. I think if
Speaker 1: you look at just what the fossil-fuel companies are paying
Speaker 1: in Texas, I think in 2019 shall paid something like 2%
Speaker 1: and BP paid something like 6%. The headline corporate tax
Speaker 1: rate is 17%. So it's things like that that
Speaker 1: people need to dig into because Corporates are also affecting
Speaker 1: our national policies. So there's two examples I can think
Speaker 1: of back in, I think 27 28 any actually wanted
Speaker 1: to do some kind of plastic reduction program like extended
Speaker 1: producer responsibility. So I think back then industry said, oh
Speaker 1: don't worry, we can handle this on our own. So
Speaker 1: they came up with this thing called the Singapore packaging
Speaker 1: agreement
Speaker 1: Which aims to reduce 10,000 tons of packaging a year,
Speaker 1: which sounds like a lot, but if you do the calculations,
Speaker 1: it's 2% of our yearly packaging waste, so they aim
Speaker 1: for 10,000 tons a year and they never hit that
Speaker 1: target ever. So they successfully blocked action on waste for
Speaker 1: like 10 years, 15 years. That was bad
Speaker 1: until I guess any and MSC or back then it
Speaker 1: was me, they were like let's just do this extended
Speaker 1: producer responsibility and mandatory packaging reporting. So that's coming up
Speaker 1: I think this year and next year and then I
Speaker 1: think carbon tax in 2018 when government announced they are
Speaker 1: looking at 10 to $20 per ton. But after consultations
Speaker 1: with industry became $5 a ton, so they definitely did
Speaker 1: block
Speaker 1: the carbon tax from being higher and back then the
Speaker 1: government's response society. So these companies if they go somewhere
Speaker 1: else they'll just do it dirtier and there'll be no
Speaker 1: that difference. But fast forward to today. I think they
Speaker 1: recognize that they can't let industry block them from taking
Speaker 1: stronger action.
Speaker 1: That's why they're upping the carbon tax to 25, and beyond.
Speaker 1: So I would hope the climate movement or the environmental
Speaker 1: movement looks more into what Corporates have been doing to
Speaker 1: block action in Singapore and we make it more transparent
Speaker 1: that they have been doing that
Speaker 1: so government can make even stronger climate policies.
Speaker 2: Okay, Jessica your goal for 2023, what are you looking
Speaker 2: forward to? My goal for 2023 is I guess to
Speaker 2: really incite more conversations and maybe for more people who
Speaker 2: are at the start of the environmental journey to see
Speaker 2: more of them at our policy workshops, but I guess
Speaker 2: just really extending
Speaker 2: outreach effort with the community on the ground to get
Speaker 2: these environmental policies to them even more so, I think
Speaker 2: that's definitely my goal personally. I also would like to
Speaker 2: do a lot more on the ground and reconnecting with
Speaker 2: nature because I do feel like that's actually a very
Speaker 2: important part sometimes, especially with advocacy, we get so caught
Speaker 2: up with a lot of big issues and then in
Speaker 2: the end we burn out. So I feel like it's
Speaker 2: important that we have something like nature to really keep
Speaker 2: us for
Speaker 2: focus and keep us grounded. So I think definitely a
Speaker 2: lot more beach walks and tree planting at the same time.
Speaker 2: Rush chicha, I mean it's certainly very inspiring to listen
Speaker 2: to your courage and ambition and I think anyone, regardless
Speaker 2: of age, background or experience can take comfort in knowing
Speaker 2: that our youth are motivated to take action and make
Speaker 2: some positive change to help our planet survive. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much for joining me today, it was so lovely
Speaker 2: to talk to you.
Speaker 1: Thank you for inviting us.
Speaker 2: Thanks to my guest and Ruzicka and thanks to all
Speaker 2: of you for tuning in, We hope you enjoyed this
Speaker 2: episode that do remember to subscribe and like this podcast.
Speaker 2: So you know, when a new episode drops, you can
Speaker 2: find CNN's climate and sustainability coverage online at sienna dot asia.
Speaker 2: But the team behind this podcast is Joanne, Chen, saya, Lynn,
Speaker 2: Jacqueline Chen and Christina robert and I'm julie you signing
Speaker 2: off