1 00:00:00,439 --> 00:00:02,769 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:04,219 --> 00:00:08,149 Speaker 1: Hello, it's Gracie here for another episode of Why It Differently, 3 00:00:08,159 --> 00:00:10,909 Speaker 1: where we discuss neurodiversity in the workplace. 4 00:00:11,329 --> 00:00:14,380 Speaker 1: I'm very excited about today's conversation because everyone on this 5 00:00:14,390 --> 00:00:18,069 Speaker 1: podcast has a DH D if you're new to this series, 6 00:00:18,209 --> 00:00:20,860 Speaker 1: I'm a journalist with a DH D. And since I 7 00:00:20,870 --> 00:00:23,709 Speaker 1: found out about two years ago, I've met so many 8 00:00:23,719 --> 00:00:27,700 Speaker 1: folks like me, we all lead vastly different lives and careers, 9 00:00:27,709 --> 00:00:30,879 Speaker 1: but we process the world in very similar ways. And 10 00:00:30,889 --> 00:00:33,110 Speaker 1: for today's episode, I will admit I'm also a little 11 00:00:33,119 --> 00:00:36,930 Speaker 1: bit nervous because it covers a career conundrum. I've always 12 00:00:36,939 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: had becoming a manager, 13 00:00:39,299 --> 00:00:41,740 Speaker 1: taking on a managerial role, is often seen as the 14 00:00:41,750 --> 00:00:45,430 Speaker 1: next step in any industry. But that is very unappealing 15 00:00:45,439 --> 00:00:48,220 Speaker 1: to me personally because it involves a lot of skills 16 00:00:48,229 --> 00:00:53,909 Speaker 1: that I find really boring to master organization, skills planning, 17 00:00:53,919 --> 00:00:58,790 Speaker 1: time management, essentially managing people. It feels very stiff, so 18 00:00:58,799 --> 00:01:01,610 Speaker 1: to speak. And unlike the creative job scopes, I thrive in. 19 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,628 Speaker 1: So it's taken me a while to accept that, you know, 20 00:01:04,639 --> 00:01:06,239 Speaker 1: if I don't want to be a manager, I may 21 00:01:06,250 --> 00:01:08,589 Speaker 1: be stunting my own career growth, at least if we 22 00:01:08,599 --> 00:01:12,989 Speaker 1: measure it against conventional career progression, which brings me to 23 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,309 Speaker 1: today's topic. I'm speaking with two managers to find out 24 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,970 Speaker 1: how they handle their duties. When like me, they have 25 00:01:19,980 --> 00:01:24,190 Speaker 1: a DH D. Yvon Zhang is a sustainability and climate 26 00:01:24,199 --> 00:01:27,789 Speaker 1: change leader in risk advisory in the field of consulting. 27 00:01:28,089 --> 00:01:31,669 Speaker 1: And Amun Hisham is a legal manager at Crescent Law 28 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,190 Speaker 1: Chambers where most of his colleagues have a DH D 29 00:01:35,199 --> 00:01:38,260 Speaker 1: including the managing director who happens to be his dad. 30 00:01:38,269 --> 00:01:39,860 Speaker 1: Welcome Yvonne and Am 31 00:01:41,269 --> 00:01:42,300 Speaker 2: Hi Grace. 32 00:01:42,470 --> 00:01:46,149 Speaker 1: OK. There is this term executive function that comes up 33 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: a lot in a DH D discourse in the context 34 00:01:49,370 --> 00:01:53,220 Speaker 1: of your job scope. How would you explain executive functioning? 35 00:01:53,489 --> 00:01:54,239 Speaker 1: I'll try. 36 00:01:55,790 --> 00:01:59,319 Speaker 2: My daily work is always unpredictable. 37 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,319 Speaker 2: So it does require a lot of flexibility, extreme amount 38 00:02:04,330 --> 00:02:05,650 Speaker 2: of self control 39 00:02:06,220 --> 00:02:10,990 Speaker 2: and also working across a lot of different cultural backgrounds, 40 00:02:11,020 --> 00:02:16,750 Speaker 2: different languages, different time zones and different abilities of individuals 41 00:02:16,758 --> 00:02:23,059 Speaker 2: and organizations. So having temporal recall is important and I 42 00:02:23,070 --> 00:02:26,770 Speaker 2: would say I had a huge struggle with how to 43 00:02:26,779 --> 00:02:30,250 Speaker 2: structure things for other people. So that 44 00:02:30,339 --> 00:02:34,109 Speaker 2: to a neurotypical, it is something that they find safety 45 00:02:34,119 --> 00:02:40,149 Speaker 2: in predictability or some sense of security in knowing that 46 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:44,710 Speaker 2: they are on a path that is more or less foreseeable, right? 47 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:49,110 Speaker 2: From my own perspective, these things are incredibly boring and 48 00:02:49,119 --> 00:02:52,529 Speaker 2: those things are not so productive because I don't see 49 00:02:52,538 --> 00:02:54,489 Speaker 2: how they contribute to the ultimate goal 50 00:02:54,788 --> 00:02:58,758 Speaker 2: and having executive function definitions that are a bit different 51 00:02:58,770 --> 00:03:02,839 Speaker 2: from the neurotypical. I had to succumb a lot of 52 00:03:02,850 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: the insecurities of. Am I doing this? Right? In my team, 53 00:03:06,729 --> 00:03:09,649 Speaker 2: there are neurotypical as well as neurodivergent folks. So I 54 00:03:09,660 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: don't really have 55 00:03:10,695 --> 00:03:14,985 Speaker 2: a good answer as to what works for both sides equally. 56 00:03:15,024 --> 00:03:18,065 Speaker 2: But recognizing that there is a difference of perception and 57 00:03:18,074 --> 00:03:22,625 Speaker 2: being more open to receive differences despite the daily chaos 58 00:03:22,633 --> 00:03:25,455 Speaker 2: and not putting the pressure on myself to make the 59 00:03:25,464 --> 00:03:26,505 Speaker 2: chaos go away 60 00:03:26,729 --> 00:03:30,300 Speaker 2: because I'm not God. And there is no way that 61 00:03:30,309 --> 00:03:34,050 Speaker 2: we can control, especially that the extension of anxiety and 62 00:03:34,059 --> 00:03:37,130 Speaker 2: self control, right? A lot of unforeseeable outcomes. That's probably 63 00:03:37,250 --> 00:03:39,699 Speaker 2: the biggest takeaway I've had in the couple of years 64 00:03:39,710 --> 00:03:41,699 Speaker 2: of intensely managing people. 65 00:03:41,710 --> 00:03:43,580 Speaker 1: How big is your team on? So 66 00:03:43,589 --> 00:03:46,929 Speaker 2: my team that directly reports to me is uh you 67 00:03:46,940 --> 00:03:51,059 Speaker 2: can count on two hands, but we work very closely 68 00:03:51,070 --> 00:03:54,500 Speaker 2: with teammates across the globe and also a lot of 69 00:03:54,509 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 2: clients from all walks of life 70 00:03:56,100 --> 00:03:59,229 Speaker 2: across time zone as I shared. So in a way 71 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:04,490 Speaker 2: being open and also being constantly reminded that we need 72 00:04:04,500 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: to learn and not assume a lot of people's circumstances 73 00:04:08,009 --> 00:04:12,610 Speaker 2: and backgrounds because that consciousness of diversity in the neurological sense, 74 00:04:12,750 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: I think that's a prerequisite in what 75 00:04:15,089 --> 00:04:19,428 Speaker 1: we do. Great answer. What about you legal work law firm? 76 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,940 Speaker 1: How does executive functioning look like for yourself? OK. So 77 00:04:22,950 --> 00:04:24,969 Speaker 1: I think people who work in a law firm will 78 00:04:24,980 --> 00:04:25,410 Speaker 1: know that 79 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,510 Speaker 1: there's a lot of deadlines. And so if you can't 80 00:04:29,519 --> 00:04:32,649 Speaker 1: remember them, they better be on your calendar. The problem 81 00:04:32,660 --> 00:04:36,690 Speaker 1: is remembering to put it in your calendar. And so 82 00:04:36,700 --> 00:04:40,450 Speaker 1: my working memory is really not the best working memory. 83 00:04:40,459 --> 00:04:42,089 Speaker 1: I think they used to call it short term memory. 84 00:04:42,100 --> 00:04:44,890 Speaker 1: I think. So, what happened recently was I was emailing 85 00:04:44,899 --> 00:04:49,850 Speaker 1: a client about setting an appointment and then we confirmed 86 00:04:49,859 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: when we're going to meet. So the thing is I 87 00:04:52,450 --> 00:04:54,109 Speaker 1: forgot to put it in the calendar 88 00:04:54,359 --> 00:04:56,618 Speaker 1: because I don't know what I was doing at the 89 00:04:56,630 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: point in time. I'm sure I was doing a lot 90 00:04:58,329 --> 00:05:00,329 Speaker 1: of other things at the same time. And that's the problem. 91 00:05:00,339 --> 00:05:02,750 Speaker 1: There's a lot of things to do and when your 92 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,450 Speaker 1: working memory is bad, something is going to fall through 93 00:05:06,459 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: the cracks. Yeah. So that's what happened. So when the 94 00:05:08,769 --> 00:05:12,170 Speaker 1: client appeared, we were all like, oh my God, this 95 00:05:12,178 --> 00:05:14,700 Speaker 1: person is here. This is not the calendar. 96 00:05:15,678 --> 00:05:17,868 Speaker 1: Yeah. So all of us, we just like, OK, everybody 97 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,089 Speaker 1: calm down, calm down. We just going to prepare right 98 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:22,380 Speaker 1: now and then we just go with the the meeting. 99 00:05:22,660 --> 00:05:25,979 Speaker 1: I have a lot of that other stuff about executive function. 100 00:05:26,220 --> 00:05:26,660 Speaker 1: Um 101 00:05:27,519 --> 00:05:31,570 Speaker 1: One of them is also impulse control. For example, let's 102 00:05:31,579 --> 00:05:35,730 Speaker 1: say we are buying furniture for the office, new furniture. 103 00:05:35,790 --> 00:05:39,609 Speaker 1: What happens is certain members may be a bit impulsive. Hey, 104 00:05:39,619 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: that one looks nice. So another member will have to go. No, no, no, no, no, 105 00:05:42,928 --> 00:05:46,329 Speaker 1: let's not get that one because it's a bit too expensive. 106 00:05:46,339 --> 00:05:48,820 Speaker 1: So that happens quite often that does get in the 107 00:05:48,829 --> 00:05:49,988 Speaker 1: way of work. 108 00:05:50,269 --> 00:05:53,559 Speaker 1: But we have come up with methods of getting around that. 109 00:05:53,700 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: The two of you are in very different fields from 110 00:05:56,049 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: each other and from me. But I really relate to 111 00:05:58,769 --> 00:06:01,350 Speaker 1: a lot of your struggles that you have with executive 112 00:06:01,359 --> 00:06:05,010 Speaker 1: functioning related tasks. And actually, as you were sharing, I 113 00:06:05,019 --> 00:06:09,118 Speaker 1: remembered this instance in a previous job where I was 114 00:06:09,130 --> 00:06:11,540 Speaker 1: promoted to being an editor. And 115 00:06:11,890 --> 00:06:15,130 Speaker 1: in that position, I had to basically manage a few interns. 116 00:06:15,140 --> 00:06:17,100 Speaker 1: And I think after about 3 to 4 months, I 117 00:06:17,109 --> 00:06:23,829 Speaker 1: asked for a demotion because the amount of linear thinking 118 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:30,269 Speaker 1: structure and process related kind of work really just killed 119 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,239 Speaker 1: my brain and I just dreaded going to work every 120 00:06:33,250 --> 00:06:34,070 Speaker 1: single day. 121 00:06:34,339 --> 00:06:36,510 Speaker 1: And I also have a lot of difficulty I realize 122 00:06:36,519 --> 00:06:40,868 Speaker 1: giving people very specific instructions, which is what interns need. 123 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,329 Speaker 1: So I'm a very big picture strategy oriented kind of person. 124 00:06:45,339 --> 00:06:47,768 Speaker 1: And if you need me to go down to the 125 00:06:47,779 --> 00:06:51,488 Speaker 1: very minute details, to give you instructions rather than, you know, 126 00:06:51,500 --> 00:06:53,549 Speaker 1: if you get what I mean, you get what I mean? 127 00:06:53,559 --> 00:06:57,609 Speaker 1: It's more of an instinctive intuitive working relationship. But for 128 00:06:57,619 --> 00:06:59,410 Speaker 1: a lot of interns because they're just starting out 129 00:06:59,899 --> 00:07:04,369 Speaker 1: no fault of theirs entirely. They require more specific instructions 130 00:07:04,380 --> 00:07:09,410 Speaker 1: which I find a lot of difficulty doing Yeah. But 131 00:07:09,420 --> 00:07:12,390 Speaker 1: in my current job, I think the executive functioning struggles 132 00:07:12,399 --> 00:07:16,130 Speaker 1: come in mostly when I have to ask and write 133 00:07:16,140 --> 00:07:17,329 Speaker 1: in a linear format. 134 00:07:17,739 --> 00:07:19,750 Speaker 1: I think the two of you are very familiar with 135 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,350 Speaker 1: this veering off course kind of traits that people with 136 00:07:23,359 --> 00:07:26,899 Speaker 1: a DH D tend to have. And also another struggle 137 00:07:26,910 --> 00:07:30,690 Speaker 1: I have is differentiating between an urgent and important task. 138 00:07:30,700 --> 00:07:33,929 Speaker 1: So both of those categories 139 00:07:34,190 --> 00:07:36,959 Speaker 1: feel the same to my brain. What's urgent is important 140 00:07:36,970 --> 00:07:39,609 Speaker 1: and what's important is urgent to me. But usually what's 141 00:07:39,619 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: important is things that I want to do rather than 142 00:07:42,329 --> 00:07:44,769 Speaker 1: things that I need to do. Which of course, in 143 00:07:44,779 --> 00:07:48,459 Speaker 1: news reporting where efficiency is key and time sensitivity is key, 144 00:07:48,470 --> 00:07:51,890 Speaker 1: that's not always very ideal. Yeah, but you know, it's 145 00:07:51,899 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: very insightful to see how these executive function struggles simply 146 00:07:55,489 --> 00:07:57,899 Speaker 1: present themselves in very different ways. 147 00:07:58,660 --> 00:08:00,209 Speaker 1: Yvonne, I want to go to you, you are a 148 00:08:00,220 --> 00:08:03,369 Speaker 1: team leader right now, but I'm sure the management aspects 149 00:08:03,380 --> 00:08:06,049 Speaker 1: have changed from the time that you were first promoted 150 00:08:06,059 --> 00:08:08,690 Speaker 1: to a manager or role. What were the signs that 151 00:08:08,700 --> 00:08:11,380 Speaker 1: you were struggling at the start? Perhaps a little more 152 00:08:11,390 --> 00:08:12,570 Speaker 1: than you expected to? 153 00:08:13,459 --> 00:08:14,070 Speaker 2: Oh, dear. 154 00:08:15,769 --> 00:08:20,269 Speaker 2: So funny enough, I didn't realize what a manager meant 155 00:08:20,839 --> 00:08:24,649 Speaker 2: when I first attained that title. At a very young age, 156 00:08:25,179 --> 00:08:30,579 Speaker 2: I thought manager meant managing things, managing outcomes and processes, right? 157 00:08:30,589 --> 00:08:30,950 Speaker 2: And 158 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,289 Speaker 2: I'm good with processes. I'm good with setting up things 159 00:08:35,299 --> 00:08:38,530 Speaker 2: that have logic and have flow when I was in 160 00:08:38,539 --> 00:08:42,799 Speaker 2: the financial markets. I always have a habit of setting 161 00:08:42,809 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 2: up a desk bible where there's processes go to cheat 162 00:08:47,010 --> 00:08:50,030 Speaker 2: sheets and all of that there and assume that people 163 00:08:50,039 --> 00:08:53,070 Speaker 2: are rational just like me. They're not. 164 00:08:54,219 --> 00:08:57,010 Speaker 1: So we are the irrational ones to them. You know. 165 00:08:57,020 --> 00:08:58,049 Speaker 1: That's right. And 166 00:08:58,059 --> 00:09:01,179 Speaker 2: I didn't know that for a long time. Right. And 167 00:09:01,190 --> 00:09:04,039 Speaker 2: I thought that, hey, I've documented it. I've shown you 168 00:09:04,049 --> 00:09:06,130 Speaker 2: how to do it. There are systems available. Why I 169 00:09:06,140 --> 00:09:09,780 Speaker 2: just follow it? It's so easy. And I had to 170 00:09:09,789 --> 00:09:13,780 Speaker 2: also manage up and down and laterally. Yeah, because I 171 00:09:13,789 --> 00:09:16,250 Speaker 2: need to be supported by a lot of people to 172 00:09:16,260 --> 00:09:19,449 Speaker 2: do what I do. And I had no idea 173 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:25,090 Speaker 2: what it's like to so called manage up or manage down. 174 00:09:25,210 --> 00:09:28,929 Speaker 2: I know how to collaborate laterally because we are similar 175 00:09:28,940 --> 00:09:32,130 Speaker 2: cocks in a process in a machine, right? Managing down, 176 00:09:32,140 --> 00:09:33,729 Speaker 2: like you said, oh my God, 177 00:09:34,429 --> 00:09:38,959 Speaker 2: the amount of kind of very detailed linear instructions I 178 00:09:38,969 --> 00:09:41,569 Speaker 2: feel like I have to give, I second guess myself 179 00:09:41,580 --> 00:09:45,039 Speaker 2: because I'm thinking, am I being condescending? Why am I 180 00:09:45,049 --> 00:09:48,739 Speaker 2: presuming that somebody would not know how to do the 181 00:09:48,750 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 2: rational next step? Do I need to remind you to 182 00:09:51,289 --> 00:09:55,340 Speaker 2: breathe and blink and drink water occasionally and do your 183 00:09:55,349 --> 00:09:57,479 Speaker 2: work at the same time or you will forget that 184 00:09:57,809 --> 00:10:01,219 Speaker 2: and managing? 00 my God. That is scary as hell. 185 00:10:01,229 --> 00:10:01,968 Speaker 2: How do you even 186 00:10:02,517 --> 00:10:07,096 Speaker 2: up? Well, we are all excelling in pattern recognition. We 187 00:10:07,106 --> 00:10:10,827 Speaker 2: are really good at spotting what is likely to come next. 188 00:10:10,886 --> 00:10:13,867 Speaker 2: So it's really great in strategizing. It's not great when 189 00:10:13,877 --> 00:10:18,057 Speaker 2: it comes to managing the budget, managing the operation, locking 190 00:10:18,067 --> 00:10:22,427 Speaker 2: down timelines and also responding to management asks where the 191 00:10:22,437 --> 00:10:25,655 Speaker 2: deadline is always yesterday. There is not a single deadline 192 00:10:25,666 --> 00:10:29,456 Speaker 2: that wasn't yesterday and I couldn't distinguish between what is 193 00:10:29,466 --> 00:10:29,927 Speaker 2: important 194 00:10:30,383 --> 00:10:33,934 Speaker 2: versus what is urgent. Because to me, everything is urgent, 195 00:10:34,213 --> 00:10:38,633 Speaker 2: everything makes sense all together because I can formulate a 196 00:10:38,643 --> 00:10:42,773 Speaker 2: 3d model of why things interact and what likely would 197 00:10:42,783 --> 00:10:45,343 Speaker 2: be the root cause of the knock on effects. There's 198 00:10:45,354 --> 00:10:47,943 Speaker 2: no point addressing the last piece of a domino when 199 00:10:47,953 --> 00:10:51,213 Speaker 2: you don't fix what is causing the first kind of rumble. 200 00:10:51,223 --> 00:10:56,174 Speaker 2: So all of that is anxiety driven for sure. And 201 00:10:56,184 --> 00:10:57,573 Speaker 2: also I would say 202 00:10:57,791 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: Laing purpose is a big hindrance from my perspective. I 203 00:11:02,171 --> 00:11:07,689 Speaker 2: I hear also from other neurodivergent people. Unfortunately, when I 204 00:11:07,700 --> 00:11:10,841 Speaker 2: did get into the management role quite early on, I 205 00:11:10,851 --> 00:11:13,361 Speaker 2: realized that there is a sacrifice you have to make 206 00:11:13,370 --> 00:11:16,570 Speaker 2: of what you love doing that fulfills your purpose, what 207 00:11:16,580 --> 00:11:19,070 Speaker 2: versus what needs to be done that has nothing to 208 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,010 Speaker 2: do with your purpose, but that just needs to be done. 209 00:11:22,020 --> 00:11:25,500 Speaker 2: And that frustration of sacrificing 210 00:11:25,799 --> 00:11:29,150 Speaker 2: your purpose versus what is necessary and not understanding why 211 00:11:29,159 --> 00:11:33,929 Speaker 2: is it even necessary? It's a hugely big overhanging cloud. 212 00:11:33,940 --> 00:11:35,890 Speaker 2: And I think having a common 213 00:11:35,900 --> 00:11:38,630 Speaker 1: a it is a struggle though, like people with a 214 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: DH D need to have a purpose in order to 215 00:11:41,289 --> 00:11:44,729 Speaker 1: do something like we need to understand the why behind something? 216 00:11:44,739 --> 00:11:47,169 Speaker 1: It could be a very stupid why. But if it 217 00:11:47,179 --> 00:11:49,539 Speaker 1: makes sense to our brain, we will do it. 218 00:11:50,270 --> 00:11:52,530 Speaker 2: And I can't figure out why a lot of folks 219 00:11:52,539 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 2: don't care about the, why they just want to get 220 00:11:55,530 --> 00:11:58,549 Speaker 2: things done. And I'm like, for what, what's the, why, 221 00:11:58,559 --> 00:11:59,890 Speaker 2: where's your big, y you know, 222 00:12:00,789 --> 00:12:02,489 Speaker 1: if I don't know the, why I just don't want 223 00:12:02,500 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: to do it. I hate doing something just because I 224 00:12:05,330 --> 00:12:08,140 Speaker 1: hate the reason why, which is very hard for other 225 00:12:08,150 --> 00:12:09,989 Speaker 1: people because they don't have your brain. 226 00:12:10,150 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: It's completely fair. They might not be able to help 227 00:12:12,289 --> 00:12:14,460 Speaker 1: you figure out your, why either. I came across a 228 00:12:14,469 --> 00:12:18,299 Speaker 1: lot of this in National Service. So they were asking 229 00:12:18,809 --> 00:12:22,530 Speaker 1: why I don't understand this. It makes sense. I mean, Yvonne, 230 00:12:22,539 --> 00:12:24,949 Speaker 1: it seems that your team is pretty candid with each 231 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,450 Speaker 1: other and I think the same also goes for a 232 00:12:28,489 --> 00:12:29,549 Speaker 1: law firm. 233 00:12:30,429 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: I think it's really a very cool coincidence actually that 234 00:12:33,849 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: so many people in your law firm have a DH 235 00:12:36,090 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: D because I think I find at least that a 236 00:12:38,409 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 1: DH D folks tend to find each other or drift 237 00:12:41,570 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: towards each other. 238 00:12:42,909 --> 00:12:45,159 Speaker 1: But anyway, I'm very impressed that you guys make it work. 239 00:12:45,169 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: It seems like a place where people can just be themselves. 240 00:12:48,330 --> 00:12:51,358 Speaker 1: What exactly is that like, right now we have seven people, 241 00:12:51,369 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: four of us have seen a psychiatrist and were diagnosed. 242 00:12:54,719 --> 00:12:57,969 Speaker 1: One is in the process of seeing psychiatrist and getting 243 00:12:57,979 --> 00:13:02,478 Speaker 1: diagnosed and one is clearly a DH D but it's 244 00:13:02,489 --> 00:13:05,969 Speaker 1: not going to get diagnosed. Yeah. So, I'm sorry, what 245 00:13:05,979 --> 00:13:06,929 Speaker 1: was the question again? 246 00:13:08,109 --> 00:13:10,090 Speaker 1: Oh, my God. I love it. What is it like 247 00:13:10,099 --> 00:13:14,750 Speaker 1: to work in an environment where everyone can be themselves? Ah, ok. Fun. 248 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: Like legit and you feel safe because then nobody is 249 00:13:17,289 --> 00:13:19,330 Speaker 1: going to judge you for what you're doing. Everyone has 250 00:13:19,340 --> 00:13:23,109 Speaker 1: something that you could be judged at but because everyone 251 00:13:23,119 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: has that, so all of us understand that. Ok. That's, 252 00:13:25,330 --> 00:13:27,799 Speaker 1: that's the person, that person does that. So we all 253 00:13:27,809 --> 00:13:30,900 Speaker 1: have our individual quirks whether it's good or bad 254 00:13:31,169 --> 00:13:34,039 Speaker 1: and whether we understand each other's quirks or not, we 255 00:13:34,049 --> 00:13:37,380 Speaker 1: accept those unless it hinders work. Then that one, of 256 00:13:37,390 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 1: course you will have to say, um, I think you 257 00:13:39,090 --> 00:13:40,939 Speaker 1: should stop doing that, but it's not, it's fun because 258 00:13:40,950 --> 00:13:42,500 Speaker 1: I think with a DH D there's a lot of 259 00:13:42,510 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: unpredictability because we just need that mental stimulation that dopamine, 260 00:13:47,409 --> 00:13:49,299 Speaker 1: that's what we like to say. Something has to be 261 00:13:49,309 --> 00:13:51,659 Speaker 1: interesting is to be fun. So it just ends up 262 00:13:51,669 --> 00:13:54,539 Speaker 1: that the firm is really noisy a lot of the time. 263 00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:56,039 Speaker 1: But the strange thing is that 264 00:13:56,500 --> 00:14:00,859 Speaker 1: it's either really noisy or really quiet. It's like there's 265 00:14:00,869 --> 00:14:04,229 Speaker 1: the really hyperactive or they're really overwhelmed. 266 00:14:05,070 --> 00:14:10,619 Speaker 1: You so much everybody is over and it just, you 267 00:14:10,630 --> 00:14:12,630 Speaker 1: can hear a pin drop in the office. But you know, 268 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,039 Speaker 1: that's the thing, right about a DH D it's almost 269 00:14:15,049 --> 00:14:18,630 Speaker 1: like it's a disorder of extremes. I mean, because we 270 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,229 Speaker 1: have difficulty with regulation, really self regulation, whether it's in 271 00:14:22,239 --> 00:14:27,359 Speaker 1: terms of emotions, attention, interest and the difficulty comes in 272 00:14:27,369 --> 00:14:30,239 Speaker 1: because we are very black or white, it's either one 273 00:14:30,250 --> 00:14:32,739 Speaker 1: or the other, which is good or bad, really depending 274 00:14:32,750 --> 00:14:33,700 Speaker 1: on the situation. 275 00:14:33,979 --> 00:14:36,669 Speaker 1: But it's also why I was initially a little bit 276 00:14:36,679 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: skeptical about the fact that your firm has made it 277 00:14:39,210 --> 00:14:41,510 Speaker 1: work because I think all of us in this room, 278 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,869 Speaker 1: we know how difficult it can be to work with 279 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,809 Speaker 1: unmanaged A DH D A DH D weaknesses. At least 280 00:14:48,820 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: the way I see it, it can come across as 281 00:14:50,969 --> 00:14:54,349 Speaker 1: disobedience to other people. If they are not aware that 282 00:14:54,359 --> 00:14:57,739 Speaker 1: you have a DH D, what are some struggles you 283 00:14:57,750 --> 00:15:00,679 Speaker 1: have faced with managing staff with a DH D 284 00:15:01,250 --> 00:15:04,909 Speaker 1: um OK. I think I should clarify how the firm 285 00:15:04,919 --> 00:15:07,950 Speaker 1: is because there's seven of us. It's a very small 286 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,340 Speaker 1: firm and I think there's not really a hierarchy. A 287 00:15:11,479 --> 00:15:13,989 Speaker 1: lot of us are kind of just equal, but we 288 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,419 Speaker 1: understand that there's the managing director that's the manager, but 289 00:15:17,429 --> 00:15:19,390 Speaker 1: a lot of times it's just very, what do you 290 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,929 Speaker 1: call it later? Yeah. So it's kind of like a 291 00:15:21,940 --> 00:15:25,030 Speaker 1: system where someone is, helps to be accountable. For the 292 00:15:25,039 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: other person. 293 00:15:26,099 --> 00:15:28,900 Speaker 1: So if someone falls short of something and then you 294 00:15:28,909 --> 00:15:31,669 Speaker 1: do that or each of us will have our own 295 00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:34,710 Speaker 1: coping mechanisms. And one of my colleagues, she has a 296 00:15:34,719 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: lot of post it on her table because that's how 297 00:15:38,289 --> 00:15:43,380 Speaker 1: she remembers. That's her working memory. Yeah, minus emails. So 298 00:15:43,390 --> 00:15:46,150 Speaker 1: I will open new email message and just leave it there. 299 00:15:46,159 --> 00:15:48,159 Speaker 1: I will type in whatever it is, I'll just leave 300 00:15:48,169 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: it there. So at any point in time I have 301 00:15:49,530 --> 00:15:51,049 Speaker 1: like 10 drafts open. 302 00:15:51,260 --> 00:15:55,460 Speaker 1: But that's because that's how I remember things. That's very fascinating. 303 00:15:55,469 --> 00:15:58,169 Speaker 1: That's what I do as well. Yeah. And I didn't 304 00:15:58,429 --> 00:16:01,950 Speaker 1: peg it to poor working memory. Yeah. Was it before, 305 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,349 Speaker 1: after you knew you had ad even before long ago, 306 00:16:05,359 --> 00:16:07,479 Speaker 1: I would just open up my email draft to just 307 00:16:07,489 --> 00:16:09,260 Speaker 1: type whatever it is I need to do at that 308 00:16:09,270 --> 00:16:11,570 Speaker 1: point in time or whatever it is. That's on my 309 00:16:11,580 --> 00:16:15,059 Speaker 1: mind just to brain dump almost. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, 310 00:16:15,159 --> 00:16:17,419 Speaker 1: because I just cannot keep it in my head. That's 311 00:16:17,429 --> 00:16:17,820 Speaker 1: the thing. 312 00:16:18,250 --> 00:16:20,570 Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah. Like I just need to get it out. Yeah. Yeah, 313 00:16:20,580 --> 00:16:22,859 Speaker 1: it has to be on paper, I guess for me 314 00:16:22,869 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: it's not so much of managing people because we are 315 00:16:26,450 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: managing each other. So for me, it just more of 316 00:16:28,770 --> 00:16:32,820 Speaker 1: managing like the processes that I'm in charge of and 317 00:16:33,070 --> 00:16:37,619 Speaker 1: that one is a bit difficult, especially on the finance 318 00:16:37,630 --> 00:16:41,979 Speaker 1: part because numbers is not my thing. So I'm always 319 00:16:41,989 --> 00:16:44,289 Speaker 1: very afraid of making careless mistakes. And the thing is 320 00:16:44,299 --> 00:16:47,619 Speaker 1: we were talking about whether the purpose I think closely 321 00:16:47,630 --> 00:16:50,890 Speaker 1: related to that is interest. When we are interested in something, 322 00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:53,549 Speaker 1: we will spend a lot of time on it. Like 323 00:16:53,559 --> 00:16:55,010 Speaker 1: nobody will ask us to do it, but we will 324 00:16:55,020 --> 00:16:56,260 Speaker 1: do it because we want to do it. 325 00:16:56,479 --> 00:17:00,059 Speaker 1: And finance is not that for me. So it's something 326 00:17:00,070 --> 00:17:02,729 Speaker 1: that I have a lot of inertia, but I have 327 00:17:02,739 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: to do it. So that has to be done. But 328 00:17:04,369 --> 00:17:07,959 Speaker 1: if it's, let's say I get a really interesting file, 329 00:17:08,069 --> 00:17:10,050 Speaker 1: I could just spend like a whole day just doing 330 00:17:10,060 --> 00:17:13,030 Speaker 1: the file just drafting and then forget to do other things. 331 00:17:13,540 --> 00:17:14,420 Speaker 1: That's that. Yeah, 332 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,609 Speaker 1: I mean, I can just remember working for hours on 333 00:17:18,619 --> 00:17:21,530 Speaker 1: stories that were not due any time soon and just 334 00:17:21,540 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: forgetting about things that are fast approaching deadline or already 335 00:17:24,890 --> 00:17:28,930 Speaker 1: overdue just because the interest has just dipped or disappeared entirely. 336 00:17:33,599 --> 00:17:36,810 Speaker 1: Are you looking for ways to make your money work harder, 337 00:17:36,839 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: tips on saving investing or retiring early perhaps? Or advice 338 00:17:42,050 --> 00:17:45,569 Speaker 1: on big ticket decisions like buying a house or owning 339 00:17:45,579 --> 00:17:50,209 Speaker 1: a car? I'm Andrea. He host of CNAs Top personal 340 00:17:50,219 --> 00:17:52,609 Speaker 1: finance podcast, Money talks. And 341 00:17:52,729 --> 00:17:55,670 Speaker 1: these are some of the things we find out for you. 342 00:17:55,979 --> 00:17:59,380 Speaker 1: Each week I get a guest to share personal stories 343 00:17:59,390 --> 00:18:02,650 Speaker 1: and answer burning questions that help you make sense of 344 00:18:02,660 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: the latest financial trends. Go check out the complete money 345 00:18:06,569 --> 00:18:10,670 Speaker 1: talks playlist on the CN A app, Spotify, Google or 346 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, 347 00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: I think with a DH D the right environment or 348 00:18:21,130 --> 00:18:24,198 Speaker 1: the right support can actually help us to turn some 349 00:18:24,209 --> 00:18:28,379 Speaker 1: of our perceived flaws into strength and in the workplace. 350 00:18:28,390 --> 00:18:32,050 Speaker 1: At least I think good support really hinges on having 351 00:18:32,060 --> 00:18:34,429 Speaker 1: a good manager, at least for people with a DH 352 00:18:34,439 --> 00:18:37,550 Speaker 1: D personally. For me, as much as I love novelty 353 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,189 Speaker 1: in my job scope, I would pick having a good 354 00:18:40,199 --> 00:18:42,530 Speaker 1: manager over fun task any day, 355 00:18:42,750 --> 00:18:44,390 Speaker 1: which I think is saying a lot because I get 356 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,329 Speaker 1: bored very easily. But the way I see it, everything 357 00:18:47,339 --> 00:18:51,030 Speaker 1: eventually becomes routine after some time, no matter how novel 358 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:51,819 Speaker 1: it is in the start. 359 00:18:52,099 --> 00:18:55,109 Speaker 1: But having a good boss whom you're able to approach 360 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,780 Speaker 1: with your struggles whenever they crop up, I think it's 361 00:18:57,790 --> 00:19:01,650 Speaker 1: pretty rare. How would you say that A DH D 362 00:19:01,660 --> 00:19:07,420 Speaker 1: has affected your management style, particularly in terms of your strengths, Yvonne. 363 00:19:07,630 --> 00:19:08,030 Speaker 1: You know, it's 364 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,609 Speaker 2: interesting when am talks about the lack of hierarchy in 365 00:19:11,619 --> 00:19:14,229 Speaker 2: a team, I instinctively do that 366 00:19:14,750 --> 00:19:18,079 Speaker 2: as well because it doesn't make sense in my mind 367 00:19:18,089 --> 00:19:23,050 Speaker 2: to put artificial hierarchy in there. And I instinctively also 368 00:19:23,060 --> 00:19:25,609 Speaker 2: know that people should be leaning on each other and 369 00:19:25,619 --> 00:19:28,849 Speaker 2: learning from each other because we're a collective and our 370 00:19:28,859 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 2: strengths need to be combined. But with that said, 371 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,619 Speaker 2: that's a rational theory. We know that especially in the 372 00:19:36,630 --> 00:19:39,958 Speaker 2: last couple of years with COVID and all the complications 373 00:19:39,969 --> 00:19:43,959 Speaker 2: that follow doesn't work. There is still a bit of 374 00:19:43,969 --> 00:19:47,619 Speaker 2: a safety that people rush back towards a structure where 375 00:19:47,630 --> 00:19:51,250 Speaker 2: they can feel like they can pick to something that 376 00:19:51,260 --> 00:19:55,069 Speaker 2: measures their progress in terms of time, not necessarily outcome 377 00:19:55,300 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 2: and also opening up to someone assumes in some circumstances 378 00:20:00,689 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 2: that you've already processed what has happened and you are 379 00:20:03,650 --> 00:20:07,569 Speaker 2: able to share with somebody not while you're going through it. 380 00:20:07,829 --> 00:20:09,780 Speaker 2: And then in the last three years, we're all going 381 00:20:09,790 --> 00:20:13,010 Speaker 2: through it for three years and we didn't know what 382 00:20:13,020 --> 00:20:15,540 Speaker 2: was happening. And when we're going to be able to 383 00:20:15,550 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 2: have some closure to go on and turn around and say, hey, 384 00:20:18,930 --> 00:20:21,010 Speaker 2: this is what I felt and this is what I 385 00:20:21,020 --> 00:20:21,770 Speaker 2: need to do. 386 00:20:22,089 --> 00:20:24,438 Speaker 2: And there are so many cases where I had to 387 00:20:24,449 --> 00:20:28,989 Speaker 2: manage a lot of rapid chun the great resignation. It 388 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,589 Speaker 2: almost felt like that overall sense of helplessness, whether you're 389 00:20:33,599 --> 00:20:36,489 Speaker 2: a good manager or not, who are you to stand 390 00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 2: up to this macro thing that is following us all over. 391 00:20:40,770 --> 00:20:44,939 Speaker 2: And I understand that I can practice a lot of vulnerability, 392 00:20:45,089 --> 00:20:48,790 Speaker 2: a lot of openness, a lot of empathy. I understand 393 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:53,170 Speaker 2: why people would choose to not continue with the career. 394 00:20:53,180 --> 00:20:56,530 Speaker 2: It doesn't help me and sometimes doesn't help them and 395 00:20:56,540 --> 00:20:58,899 Speaker 2: it does not help whoever is my employer at the 396 00:20:58,910 --> 00:21:01,329 Speaker 2: time and you can't make a stop. 397 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,369 Speaker 2: That was quite scary. And then I started to learn 398 00:21:06,380 --> 00:21:09,010 Speaker 2: how to ask for help. Yeah, which I think is 399 00:21:09,020 --> 00:21:12,219 Speaker 2: a difficult thing to do. Asking for help from more 400 00:21:12,229 --> 00:21:16,020 Speaker 2: senior folks that had more life experience, even though they 401 00:21:16,030 --> 00:21:18,369 Speaker 2: openly tell me as well that they have no idea 402 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,449 Speaker 2: how this thing will end because they've also not gone 403 00:21:22,459 --> 00:21:25,250 Speaker 2: through the exact same circumstances, but there are lessons that 404 00:21:25,260 --> 00:21:29,469 Speaker 2: they're happy to share. So asking for help is a 405 00:21:29,479 --> 00:21:33,910 Speaker 2: difficult thing for anyone I realize and having that environment 406 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,420 Speaker 2: that I can help build to make it easier for 407 00:21:36,430 --> 00:21:38,969 Speaker 2: anyone to ask for help. Even if you don't know 408 00:21:38,979 --> 00:21:39,069 Speaker 2: what 409 00:21:39,155 --> 00:21:42,015 Speaker 2: you need, even if you know that you're probably asking 410 00:21:42,025 --> 00:21:45,364 Speaker 2: for help in a way that makes you look silly 411 00:21:45,375 --> 00:21:48,694 Speaker 2: or weak or incompetent and it's still OK to do that. 412 00:21:48,704 --> 00:21:51,925 Speaker 2: I think that's one of the greatest kind of strength 413 00:21:51,935 --> 00:21:55,285 Speaker 2: manager in this era really needed to have. 414 00:21:55,295 --> 00:21:58,354 Speaker 1: I think that's kind of related to the A DH 415 00:21:58,364 --> 00:21:59,344 Speaker 1: D ability 416 00:22:00,010 --> 00:22:05,139 Speaker 1: to empathize intensely sometimes too much. But in your sense, 417 00:22:05,150 --> 00:22:07,540 Speaker 1: when you're dealing with a team, especially in the great 418 00:22:07,550 --> 00:22:11,619 Speaker 1: resignation that comes in handy to a certain extent. What 419 00:22:11,630 --> 00:22:14,989 Speaker 1: about you arun? How have your A DH D related 420 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,660 Speaker 1: strengths helped you in your job? 421 00:22:18,949 --> 00:22:21,319 Speaker 1: I think it's mostly 422 00:22:22,150 --> 00:22:26,449 Speaker 1: obvious in times of crisis. And I think a lot 423 00:22:26,459 --> 00:22:29,459 Speaker 1: of a DH D people know about that, that when 424 00:22:29,469 --> 00:22:31,729 Speaker 1: there's a crisis, some of us find the calmness in 425 00:22:31,739 --> 00:22:34,390 Speaker 1: that we had an early conversation. I think Yvonne mentioned 426 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,609 Speaker 1: that we kind of get into this calm state when 427 00:22:36,619 --> 00:22:38,979 Speaker 1: everything else is chaotic. I don't know if it's 428 00:22:39,199 --> 00:22:43,319 Speaker 2: the super Zen mode. We going to look for crisis 429 00:22:43,329 --> 00:22:44,569 Speaker 2: because we're so good at it. 430 00:22:45,199 --> 00:22:48,170 Speaker 1: I know where it comes from. I have no idea also. OK. 431 00:22:48,180 --> 00:22:51,630 Speaker 1: So my theory is that because the external chaos matches 432 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,089 Speaker 1: our internal chaos, it kind of like, I don't know, 433 00:22:55,099 --> 00:22:59,188 Speaker 1: maybe neutralizes itself. Yeah. So that's maybe that's why we 434 00:22:59,199 --> 00:23:02,969 Speaker 1: do extra well in chaos, our definition of chaos, there 435 00:23:02,979 --> 00:23:04,669 Speaker 1: is a lot of chaos. Like all the anxiety and 436 00:23:04,729 --> 00:23:08,449 Speaker 1: everything over thinking, your mind is always racing a lot. 437 00:23:08,589 --> 00:23:09,589 Speaker 1: So I think what 438 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,209 Speaker 1: helps with the problem solving mode because when there's a problem, 439 00:23:14,219 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: I just generate ideas. Some of the ideas may not 440 00:23:17,810 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 1: make sense but they will work. And I think that's the, 441 00:23:21,170 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 1: I don't know, that might be an A DH D 442 00:23:22,739 --> 00:23:25,050 Speaker 1: thing so that I don't know, intuitive. 443 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:26,810 Speaker 2: You think? I think 444 00:23:26,819 --> 00:23:27,409 Speaker 1: so? Yeah, 445 00:23:27,859 --> 00:23:31,510 Speaker 2: I think fast and slow thing, right? Where exactly what 446 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 2: you just said? Yeah. Right. You know, 447 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,170 Speaker 2: work but probably doesn't make sense. 448 00:23:36,569 --> 00:23:39,369 Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, you're right. OK. I have a tendency to, 449 00:23:39,380 --> 00:23:41,290 Speaker 1: is it an AD D thing? But it may not, 450 00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:44,010 Speaker 1: it may just be everyone kind of thing. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 451 00:23:44,339 --> 00:23:46,859 Speaker 1: But the thing is your brain is essentially your body 452 00:23:46,869 --> 00:23:50,349 Speaker 1: CPU right? Everything you do starts from your brain. So 453 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,958 Speaker 1: I think it's very difficult to say what is an 454 00:23:52,969 --> 00:23:55,208 Speaker 1: A DH D thing and what isn't, technically everything is 455 00:23:55,219 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: an A DH D thing because your entire brain is 456 00:23:57,530 --> 00:23:58,170 Speaker 1: a DH D. 457 00:23:59,089 --> 00:24:03,260 Speaker 1: Yeah. I was diagnosed last year and then I read 458 00:24:03,270 --> 00:24:06,329 Speaker 1: a lot on a DH D so I was reading, like, 459 00:24:06,339 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 1: over the next few months I just hyper fixated on 460 00:24:08,449 --> 00:24:11,180 Speaker 1: a HD, just reading about it. I did not realize 461 00:24:11,189 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: how much a DH D seep through every aspect of 462 00:24:15,170 --> 00:24:18,099 Speaker 1: my life. And I think we can feel that because 463 00:24:18,109 --> 00:24:21,060 Speaker 1: looking back, it's like, oh, that's why I did that 464 00:24:21,349 --> 00:24:24,489 Speaker 1: because it's affected by this, the impulsivity. Why did I 465 00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:27,968 Speaker 1: make that decision? Ok. All these impulsive behaviors and you 466 00:24:27,979 --> 00:24:29,650 Speaker 1: start to see a pattern in your life like, OK, 467 00:24:29,660 --> 00:24:32,989 Speaker 1: that makes sense. And then also because like, I've always 468 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,369 Speaker 1: had a sense of kind of why do I feel 469 00:24:35,380 --> 00:24:37,750 Speaker 1: a bit different? So I felt like is there something 470 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,079 Speaker 1: wrong with myself? So when I found out about a 471 00:24:40,089 --> 00:24:43,459 Speaker 1: DH D, then it all clicked. So that filled the 472 00:24:43,469 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: gaps in my life? Yeah, me too. I think it's 473 00:24:47,130 --> 00:24:49,500 Speaker 1: very impressive that you too have reached 474 00:24:49,584 --> 00:24:53,025 Speaker 1: this level of self-awareness, at least in the workplace. I 475 00:24:53,035 --> 00:24:56,094 Speaker 1: think reaching this level of self-awareness also means that you 476 00:24:56,104 --> 00:25:00,625 Speaker 1: have less difficulty asking for support or accommodations. I know 477 00:25:00,635 --> 00:25:02,964 Speaker 1: we talked about this saying how we don't like the 478 00:25:02,974 --> 00:25:06,854 Speaker 1: term accommodations and I think a better word to replace 479 00:25:06,864 --> 00:25:11,885 Speaker 1: accommodations is actually options, essentially offering neurodivergent folks options the 480 00:25:11,895 --> 00:25:14,524 Speaker 1: way that they can work, the way that they are 481 00:25:14,535 --> 00:25:17,734 Speaker 1: working style best suits whatever task they have at hand. 482 00:25:18,209 --> 00:25:22,109 Speaker 1: So you too, as managers or at least working with 483 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,839 Speaker 1: a team, I'm sure you've also asked for help or 484 00:25:25,849 --> 00:25:28,459 Speaker 1: accommodations for your A DH D. And at the same time, 485 00:25:28,469 --> 00:25:31,479 Speaker 1: you are also in the position of extending this support 486 00:25:31,489 --> 00:25:35,819 Speaker 1: to others. How would you say some of these support 487 00:25:35,829 --> 00:25:39,020 Speaker 1: strategies have come up in your workplace within your team itself? 488 00:25:39,030 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: And also what would you advise someone who is struggling 489 00:25:42,569 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: to ask for help for whatever reason? Like maybe they 490 00:25:45,689 --> 00:25:48,079 Speaker 1: don't want to be seen as getting unfair treatment? 491 00:25:48,510 --> 00:25:50,698 Speaker 2: Hm I have to say that 492 00:25:51,579 --> 00:25:54,839 Speaker 2: I don't do this well, for myself, I don't recall 493 00:25:54,849 --> 00:25:59,329 Speaker 2: a time that I actually asked for options or accommodations 494 00:25:59,339 --> 00:26:02,699 Speaker 2: for myself, but I feel that maybe this is also 495 00:26:02,709 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 2: the people pleasing. I feel a lot more easy asking 496 00:26:06,209 --> 00:26:10,579 Speaker 2: on behalf of other folks. So for example, working environment, 497 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,050 Speaker 2: flexible work is an option now. And thanks to COVID, 498 00:26:14,060 --> 00:26:14,250 Speaker 2: it's 499 00:26:14,489 --> 00:26:19,510 Speaker 2: become very mainstream but flexible work also requires a completely 500 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:27,750 Speaker 2: different level of workflow management, transparency, training, accountability, and also 501 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,500 Speaker 2: it even flows down to finances, which is your pet 502 00:26:30,510 --> 00:26:34,859 Speaker 2: peeve because the speed of work is not so 503 00:26:35,569 --> 00:26:40,938 Speaker 2: conventionally manageable once you allow full flexibility. And for an 504 00:26:40,949 --> 00:26:44,270 Speaker 2: A DH D person who has difficulty understanding how to 505 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,379 Speaker 2: prioritize ha ha ha, how do you sit on top 506 00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:51,589 Speaker 2: and make all the accommodations available for other people yet 507 00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:55,739 Speaker 2: don't have or maybe I don't prioritize my own needs 508 00:26:55,750 --> 00:26:56,599 Speaker 2: as a person 509 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,709 Speaker 2: yet. So far I was lucky to have a few 510 00:26:59,719 --> 00:27:03,510 Speaker 2: very good teammates that make up my shortcomings. I know 511 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,989 Speaker 2: that their skill set don't come naturally to them. They 512 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,510 Speaker 2: gone through help to become what they are today. I'm 513 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,300 Speaker 2: so proud of them, but they are able to manage 514 00:27:12,310 --> 00:27:16,329 Speaker 2: a lot of the operational finance and they are very 515 00:27:16,589 --> 00:27:20,819 Speaker 2: strong in finding their own way around, very ludicrous and 516 00:27:20,829 --> 00:27:24,339 Speaker 2: inefficient systems at times. So I'm proud of them doing 517 00:27:24,349 --> 00:27:25,959 Speaker 2: that at the back of my mind. I also, 518 00:27:26,035 --> 00:27:29,125 Speaker 2: so I wonder is there even is it even real 519 00:27:29,135 --> 00:27:32,425 Speaker 2: back in the day when we face rigid work processes? 520 00:27:32,435 --> 00:27:36,964 Speaker 2: Very cookie cutter role definitions. And did it ever work 521 00:27:36,974 --> 00:27:39,385 Speaker 2: the way that we thought it was supposed to or 522 00:27:39,395 --> 00:27:42,454 Speaker 2: is that there was so much gap feeling by folks 523 00:27:42,464 --> 00:27:45,734 Speaker 2: just making things work in their own way? And what 524 00:27:45,744 --> 00:27:48,625 Speaker 2: level of accommodation I should ask myself when I have 525 00:27:48,635 --> 00:27:49,724 Speaker 2: the benefit of a team 526 00:27:50,609 --> 00:27:55,300 Speaker 2: and is me demonstrating how I do things going to 527 00:27:55,310 --> 00:27:59,010 Speaker 2: be impacted if I ask for accommodations and whom do 528 00:27:59,020 --> 00:28:02,319 Speaker 2: I even ask for accommodation? Because the more senior you go, 529 00:28:02,459 --> 00:28:05,188 Speaker 2: the less provision you get at there is sometimes you 530 00:28:05,199 --> 00:28:06,540 Speaker 2: don't feel that you have 531 00:28:06,655 --> 00:28:08,704 Speaker 2: supervision at all because at the end of the day, 532 00:28:08,714 --> 00:28:12,785 Speaker 2: you're accountable for outcomes and people you have to self regulate. 533 00:28:12,974 --> 00:28:16,224 Speaker 2: So there is not a person you can even ask 534 00:28:16,244 --> 00:28:19,584 Speaker 2: for options and accommodations from at all. And a lot 535 00:28:19,594 --> 00:28:22,464 Speaker 2: of times you're facing external stakeholders 536 00:28:23,060 --> 00:28:27,109 Speaker 2: whom you are accountable to, they are not accountable for you. Yeah. 537 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,709 Speaker 2: So how do you manage all those very complex relationships 538 00:28:31,719 --> 00:28:35,349 Speaker 2: that goes beyond a crisis because we can't deal with crises. 539 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,849 Speaker 2: We can't deal with long term relationships, can we? 540 00:28:39,770 --> 00:28:42,589 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're so right. I think that goes to the 541 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,010 Speaker 1: A DH D trait of struggling with consistency, 542 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:52,180 Speaker 2: consistency. Yeah. Yes. And being perceived as disobedient, right? Fanciful, 543 00:28:52,420 --> 00:28:57,510 Speaker 2: having temper. And also I don't think anyone has called 544 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,300 Speaker 2: me lazy thankfully because 545 00:28:59,380 --> 00:29:03,140 Speaker 2: I've managed to mask with high performance and extreme amount 546 00:29:03,150 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 2: of self control at times. But all those are perceptions 547 00:29:07,050 --> 00:29:10,010 Speaker 2: that are ingrained into us in a way that we 548 00:29:10,020 --> 00:29:15,300 Speaker 2: are embodying those anxieties and fears. So asking for accommodation 549 00:29:15,310 --> 00:29:17,930 Speaker 2: is not a cure for us at all. It actually 550 00:29:17,939 --> 00:29:19,130 Speaker 2: deepens my shame. 551 00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:22,910 Speaker 2: Hm. But offering options to others brings me joy in 552 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,890 Speaker 2: knowing that I can use my experiences to help somebody 553 00:29:25,900 --> 00:29:28,569 Speaker 2: else but does it even work if it's just one 554 00:29:28,579 --> 00:29:31,599 Speaker 2: way flow? So those are the things I'm trying to 555 00:29:31,609 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: learn more from. 556 00:29:32,670 --> 00:29:35,130 Speaker 1: I think what you said made a lot of sense 557 00:29:35,140 --> 00:29:37,670 Speaker 1: in terms of asking for help and feeling shame. 558 00:29:38,540 --> 00:29:41,589 Speaker 1: I talked about this with someone else as well. You know, 559 00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:44,199 Speaker 1: you already know that you are different and asking for 560 00:29:44,209 --> 00:29:48,140 Speaker 1: help kind of emphasizes that difference. So it's almost as 561 00:29:48,150 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: if you don't want to stand out anymore and asking 562 00:29:52,050 --> 00:29:55,729 Speaker 1: for that help makes it more obvious that you are 563 00:29:55,739 --> 00:29:58,130 Speaker 1: not the same as everyone else, which I think is 564 00:29:58,140 --> 00:30:02,589 Speaker 1: why it's so difficult for neurodivergent folks to ask for help. 565 00:30:03,079 --> 00:30:06,969 Speaker 1: Am final parting words. I would say that in the end, 566 00:30:06,979 --> 00:30:11,089 Speaker 1: it boils down to respect for each other's differences, which 567 00:30:11,099 --> 00:30:15,369 Speaker 1: it seems like your workplace has done very well. What 568 00:30:15,380 --> 00:30:18,380 Speaker 1: quirks would you advise people to look out for, to 569 00:30:18,390 --> 00:30:21,390 Speaker 1: be aware of? If they ever were to work with 570 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,660 Speaker 1: a manager with a DH D quirks? That's the word. 571 00:30:24,890 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: I think you'll probably notice a lot of quirks which 572 00:30:28,530 --> 00:30:32,390 Speaker 1: you may not understand but be open 573 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,310 Speaker 1: and be understanding because there's a lot of like misperceptions 574 00:30:36,319 --> 00:30:40,180 Speaker 1: on what a DH D is. Some people think people 575 00:30:40,189 --> 00:30:42,540 Speaker 1: with a DH D are kind of just making excuses 576 00:30:42,550 --> 00:30:45,079 Speaker 1: when they say that they were not focusing, not paying 577 00:30:45,089 --> 00:30:47,329 Speaker 1: attention enough or you forget something. 578 00:30:47,619 --> 00:30:52,890 Speaker 1: So be open and understanding for me as someone like 579 00:30:52,900 --> 00:30:55,890 Speaker 1: a manager with a DH D, that's something I would 580 00:30:55,900 --> 00:31:00,420 Speaker 1: like because I know that I'm gonna make mistakes somewhere, 581 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,420 Speaker 1: just kind of be patient and in fact, just give 582 00:31:03,430 --> 00:31:05,750 Speaker 1: support at the end of the day, all of us 583 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,239 Speaker 1: are just bogged down with responsibilities and a lot of work. 584 00:31:09,469 --> 00:31:11,689 Speaker 1: So I just work together with them. 585 00:31:12,439 --> 00:31:15,290 Speaker 1: I wrote notes but I have no idea. I didn't 586 00:31:15,300 --> 00:31:16,089 Speaker 1: write enough notes. 587 00:31:18,050 --> 00:31:20,790 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. I think our conversation just went completely 588 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,020 Speaker 1: off track as we planned, but I already kind of 589 00:31:24,030 --> 00:31:27,310 Speaker 1: planned for going off track also in my head, which 590 00:31:27,319 --> 00:31:28,699 Speaker 1: is the case for a lot of people with a 591 00:31:28,709 --> 00:31:31,979 Speaker 1: DH D. But anyway, thank you so much, both of 592 00:31:31,989 --> 00:31:35,619 Speaker 1: you for, you know, being so candid and enlightening about 593 00:31:35,630 --> 00:31:37,380 Speaker 1: how you manage your A DH D 594 00:31:37,890 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: while managing a team. It is a challenge, but it 595 00:31:41,170 --> 00:31:43,890 Speaker 1: does give me some reassurance that I think maybe being 596 00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: a manager is not so bad after all, I don't 597 00:31:47,569 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: know if that's the right takeaway, but I would like 598 00:31:50,050 --> 00:31:52,459 Speaker 1: to think that one day if I decide to, I 599 00:31:52,469 --> 00:31:56,819 Speaker 1: could and to all listeners, especially if you work with 600 00:31:56,829 --> 00:31:59,140 Speaker 1: someone with a DH D and that person happens to 601 00:31:59,150 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: be your manager or boss. Thank you for taking the 602 00:32:02,010 --> 00:32:03,979 Speaker 1: time to understand their brains better. 603 00:32:04,530 --> 00:32:07,010 Speaker 1: I think I speak on behalf of Yvonne and am 604 00:32:07,189 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: when I say that having a team or a boss 605 00:32:09,770 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: who takes the time to ask and understand how we 606 00:32:12,530 --> 00:32:16,199 Speaker 1: work is actually the most important workplace accommodation. 607 00:32:17,170 --> 00:32:19,089 Speaker 1: Let me know what you think of this series. Leave 608 00:32:19,099 --> 00:32:22,459 Speaker 1: me a review or a comment on Spotify or Apple podcast. 609 00:32:22,819 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: Thanks also to the CN A podcast team, Christina Robert, 610 00:32:26,550 --> 00:32:31,290 Speaker 1: Jacqueline Chan, Joanne Chan and Tiffany Ang for keeping my 611 00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:35,319 Speaker 1: A DH D personality in check, but never cramping my views. 612 00:32:35,819 --> 00:32:38,739 Speaker 1: I'm Grace. Yo. And here is wishing you a supportive 613 00:32:38,750 --> 00:32:41,699 Speaker 1: work culture no matter where you are on the career ladder.