Speaker 1: Talk back with Lance and Daniel from 6 p.m.
Speaker 1: Hello everybody, welcome into Talk Bank where you lead the show.
Speaker 1: We need to talk about why Singapore's fertility rate didn't
Speaker 1: get a boost from the dragon year. The dragon year
Speaker 1: did not boost Singapore's birth numbers. We're asking you.
Speaker 1: Why the fatal fertility rate has remained at its record
Speaker 1: low of 0.97 in 2024, despite it being the year
Speaker 1: of the dragon. So it didn't go up, didn't go down,
Speaker 1: it's just 0.97. Yeah, because normally when you have dragon years,
Speaker 1: it gives a bump up for birth rates here.
Speaker 1: Uh, with the Chinese, especially the Chinese deeming it an
Speaker 1: auspicious time to have babies. Uh, yet, early data showed
Speaker 1: that there were 30,800 resident births last year, just slightly
Speaker 1: up from 30,500. So I jumped in 300, but still
Speaker 1: not enough to make a change to that 0.97.
Speaker 1: Uh, record low fertility rate in 2024. Nice. OK, so
Speaker 1: here's the thing, have people just given up the idea
Speaker 1: of cultural reasons for choosing the year of the birth,
Speaker 1: or is it
Speaker 1: The trump card is still cast. And that has now
Speaker 1: trumped the year of the dragon. I'm also going to
Speaker 1: throw another thing in this, yeah, maybe couples don't wanna
Speaker 1: have kids. Point blank blank 7 is the new norm. Yeah.
Speaker 1: What do you do? Please join the discussion as we
Speaker 1: ask the question, why do the dragon boost Singapore's numbers?
Speaker 1: Have your say. It's Talkback with Lance and Daniel. Call
Speaker 1: in 669-119-38 or WhatsApp 963-11-938. Doctor Tan, Paul Lin joining us,
Speaker 1: senior research fellow Institute of Policy Studies. Doctor Tan, hello, welcome.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having
Speaker 1: me. Have we usually some kind of boost from Dragon?
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that um usually we did uh for
Speaker 2: the past few cycles, um we've observed a boost in
Speaker 2: the fertility rate when it came to the dragon year.
Speaker 1: OK, maybe
Speaker 1: you can tell us, Dr. Tan, why are we seeing
Speaker 1: this sort of drop when it comes to
Speaker 1: The dragon, yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, I have to tell you that, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: it's impossible to see everything in advance. Uh, I myself
Speaker 2: was a little surprised that there wasn't a boost, uh,
Speaker 2: but what I will tell you is that, uh, and
Speaker 2: what a lot of people don't take into account is
Speaker 2: that the dragon year phenomenon is actually uh somewhat of
Speaker 2: a relatively new and recent thing. Um so previous, so
Speaker 2: it started in the 70s, uh natural pre
Speaker 2: Uh, previously before that, anybody who is, uh, deeply intimate
Speaker 2: with the um idea of astrology, Chinese astrology would know
Speaker 2: that the way that people will look into uh what
Speaker 2: would be a good time to have a child is
Speaker 2: actually based on your uh parts uh 8.
Speaker 2: Characters, right? And that would not just be a year,
Speaker 2: which is a fairly minor consideration. It also depended on
Speaker 2: the month, the day, even the hour of birth. So
Speaker 2: there'll be 84 different things determining your 8 characters, and
Speaker 2: that actually is what is used to tell fate for
Speaker 2: fortune telling.
Speaker 2: So why did this dragon phenomenon come about? Um, I
Speaker 2: think it basically it was a reaction to a lot
Speaker 2: of things that were going on in the, in that period.
Speaker 2: So you know that at that point we also had
Speaker 2: a cultural revolution, um, in in in China, um, um.
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean around that period, um, this was
Speaker 2: a period where, um, there were a lot of cultural
Speaker 2: changes and um including the way that people thought about
Speaker 2: having kids. So in the past having kids was, uh,
Speaker 2: was not something that people debated about and everybody wanted
Speaker 2: to have children.
Speaker 2: Um, but then came along all these cultural changes and
Speaker 2: you know we actually invented new ways of um of
Speaker 2: thinking about what what what are the what are the
Speaker 2: cultural factors that are relevant um to things like uh childbearing.
Speaker 1: are not so relevant anymore and now cost is a
Speaker 1: bigger factor than cultural. That's one of the things that
Speaker 1: we want to talk about a little bit as to
Speaker 1: why this dragon year didn't work. Let's go to the
Speaker 1: phone lines first, Dr. Tan. Christina has called in one
Speaker 1: of our listeners, 669-11938. Christina, why do you think the
Speaker 1: dragoner did not boost Singapore's birth numbers? Actually, if you
Speaker 1: are smart, you won't want to give birth to a
Speaker 1: dragon year. To have to be too many kids and
Speaker 1: the competition is.
Speaker 1: It's going to be so crazy. So I guess people
Speaker 1: all know everybody is thinking are smarter now, you know that,
Speaker 1: you know, well, you know, you have too many kids
Speaker 1: during the dragon year, and you're fighting with, with so
Speaker 1: many kids for not only for primary school, you have
Speaker 1: to fight with them for secondary school, you have to
Speaker 1: fight with them till tertiary, you know. Army also. And yeah,
Speaker 1: army also. So why bother?
Speaker 1: Is that really a factor? No, it is true. I've heard,
Speaker 1: I've heard this many a time that because so many
Speaker 1: people in the previous dragon years, all the kids' classroom
Speaker 1: sizes were bigger, even for their matches. Is that what
Speaker 1: you heard as well, Christina?
Speaker 1: Yes, of course. And I have a relative who gave birth,
Speaker 1: I think during 1988, there were 52,000 or 54,000 babies.
Speaker 1: So that was crazy here. And every, every time when
Speaker 1: they come to a like a critical year, like primary 64,
Speaker 1: they are so worried.
Speaker 1: And, and they are so anxious because that's where they
Speaker 1: are fighting with people. Even if you are good, you
Speaker 1: have to be really, really very good to get into
Speaker 1: a good school. Singapore small country have to worry about
Speaker 1: HDB size, HDB price. Now also worry about what year
Speaker 1: you're born in, putting, uh, Tiger is that the unpopular year?
Speaker 1: Tiger is the unpopular in the calendar. I'm a monkey,
Speaker 1: I'm a monkey. How monkey or not?
Speaker 1: Rabbits also quite good. Christina, so nice to hear from you.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. OK bye. Dr. Tan, what do
Speaker 1: you think about what Christina had to say that based
Speaker 1: on previous experience, there were just too many kids born
Speaker 1: and it was competition for resources.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I think Christina is absolutely right, but as
Speaker 2: time went on because it's a recent.
Speaker 2: Kind of a new thing. I think people start, it
Speaker 2: wasn't yet culturally stable and then, and the more, the
Speaker 2: more time went on, the more people became more aware
Speaker 2: of the problems of being part of a large cohort.
Speaker 2: Um, and, uh, actually what you asked about the monkey, uh, zodiac,
Speaker 2: and so, uh, I just wanted to point out that
Speaker 2: in Singapore we have something quite interesting because you know how, uh,
Speaker 2: men go to NS and they delay their entry into
Speaker 2: the labor market. So when we did research, um, with
Speaker 2: my colleagues at NUS, we found that, um, in fact,
Speaker 2: it's not just dragon year, uh, children who tend to
Speaker 2: have lower wages.
Speaker 2: Uh, wages, when we looked at their wages, their labor
Speaker 2: market wages, um, because they're in a large cohort, but
Speaker 2: also people who are are paired with them in, um, the,
Speaker 2: the year of the horse, because men come out of
Speaker 2: NS a bit later, right, than women do. So they
Speaker 2: actually match with women from born in the year of
Speaker 2: the horse. And we also find that for that particular
Speaker 2: set of
Speaker 2: People, they also have lower wages. So definitely that may
Speaker 2: be a very good rationale behind what Christina
Speaker 1: is
Speaker 2: saying.
Speaker 1: Tiger.
Speaker 1: But Dr. Tan, we still need a replacement rate of
Speaker 1: 2.1 to allow the population to replace itself. At the
Speaker 1: rate we're going, we can have more older people and
Speaker 1: not too many young people.
Speaker 2: Um, that's right. Um, so it's, it's actually the case
Speaker 2: that even though we are all very used to the
Speaker 2: idea that Singapore is a low fertility country and we
Speaker 2: have a sub replacement TFR, the fact is that demographic
Speaker 2: changes in Singapore are not yet stabilized. There's still a
Speaker 2: lot of changes ongoing. Um, the reasons for why people
Speaker 2: don't have children actually has changed from just
Speaker 2: Uh, because it's too expensive, um, to other considerations as well.
Speaker 2: You know, people these days also, for example, don't want
Speaker 2: to have children in order to have, uh, old age insurance. Um,
Speaker 2: and that's, that's something that's positive. Actually, it can be
Speaker 2: a source of relief, right? Because you don't have to
Speaker 2: depend on your children and your, your children don't have to, uh,
Speaker 2: pay for you when you get old. But
Speaker 2: But at the same time, that reduces the reasons for
Speaker 2: having children. There are a lot of um, so that
Speaker 2: to to just uh make it sweet and short, um,
Speaker 2: there are other ongoing reasons as to why um people
Speaker 2: actually are changing the reasons for not having children. It's
Speaker 2: not just about cost as anymore actually other um changes
Speaker 2: happening we see um by cohort.
Speaker 1: All of our listeners.
Speaker 1: Made a punny comment. Apparently our low fertility rates will
Speaker 1: continue to drag on.
Speaker 1: Drag on, get it get it well done, Alvin, well done. Uh,
Speaker 1: another listener says people are holding off because they, they're
Speaker 1: in anticipation of the SG 60 gifts from the government.
Speaker 1: I don't think that you can hold off the baby la,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like, like, I don't think
Speaker 1: somebody last year said, no, no, no, no, maybe wait
Speaker 1: till 60, then have the baby at 60, but you've
Speaker 1: got to start now because you know it's 9 months
Speaker 1: and you're looking at December, November, December already, you know,
Speaker 1: so if you want to get on to the year
Speaker 1: of the dragon, it's too late for that, but this
Speaker 1: year is the you have the snake.
Speaker 1: So the year of the snake, what, what is it like?
Speaker 1: You know, is it popular at all or have you
Speaker 1: noticed sub uh substantial or significant folds, Doctor Tan?
Speaker 2: No, we, uh, actually only see significant differences in how
Speaker 2: many kids people have in tiger and dragon years in
Speaker 2: the past in
Speaker 1: Singapore. Oh, OK,
Speaker 1: uh, bottom line, maybe people don't care anymore.
Speaker 1: That these cultural reasons for having a baby in a
Speaker 1: specific year doesn't matter anymore. Is there any evidence, has,
Speaker 1: has any of your studies pointed towards that? I'm curious.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that um it is very, uh there
Speaker 2: are very um that's very clear indication uh from various
Speaker 2: different polls that different cohorts actually have different attitudes towards,
Speaker 2: towards family formation.
Speaker 2: And the younger generation in general, when they say they
Speaker 2: don't want what the reason why they're not having children,
Speaker 2: it's not just because they didn't have the chance to
Speaker 2: get married, it's actually that they really do have either
Speaker 2: less interest in family formation or they would cite something
Speaker 2: like um they they feel that um it may not
Speaker 2: be a good thing to have kids,
Speaker 1: yeah,
Speaker 2: so that's something that you know.
Speaker 2: is different from previous generations.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess another thing is back then, if you
Speaker 1: had a kid or about to plan for a kid,
Speaker 1: you would also get a lot of pressure from your
Speaker 1: parents or grandparents, relatives. So maybe today, would you say
Speaker 1: that kids don't, don't bother about that sort of pressure.
Speaker 1: They say, I mean we're doing our own thing, so
Speaker 1: leave us alone.
Speaker 1: And uh and, and there'll be a forecast and what
Speaker 1: year might be, you know, practices. Yeah, those were quite
Speaker 1: popular as well. People would look at the stars or
Speaker 1: certain alignments and then decide. Would you say as well, Dr. Tan,
Speaker 1: we saw less marriages, I think 24,800 in 2024 compared
Speaker 1: to 26,500 in 2023. Uh, was that a result of
Speaker 1: delays due to COVID? So maybe people are marrying less
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 1: Uh, maybe planning to have kids 23 years after marriage
Speaker 1: life. Well,
Speaker 2: it could be actually the opposite. The baseline was higher, um,
Speaker 2: in those years, right, so you have all these catch
Speaker 2: up marriages happening, um, because they couldn't get married in 2020, 2021,
Speaker 2: pushed it back to 22, 23, so when you compare
Speaker 2: that 2024 to 23, it may be that uh part
Speaker 2: of that is that the um that the baseline was
Speaker 2: higher than 23.
Speaker 2: Um, at the same time, I think that when we
Speaker 2: talk about things like, uh, specifically, you know, I want
Speaker 2: to have babies in the dragon year versus, uh, and, uh,
Speaker 2: thinking about things like that, I think it's kind of
Speaker 2: an interesting paradox because on the one hand, there's never
Speaker 2: been more, it's never been more profitable to be an astrologer,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 2: Uh, that's big money now it's a huge industry, um,
Speaker 2: so people are still ascribing or at least they're interested
Speaker 2: in astrology, but on the other hand, I think people
Speaker 2: just don't have the luxury anymore of, uh, trying to
Speaker 2: time children exactly when they have it. One thing is
Speaker 2: that we're all getting older, um, and when you get older,
Speaker 2: you start to get
Speaker 2: Anxious about when I can have a kid. I can't
Speaker 2: wait till dragon year, right, uh, to have a child.
Speaker 2: I can't delay, uh, if it's a it's a tiger
Speaker 2: year because I'm hitting my fertility, um, you know, uh,
Speaker 2: age kind of, uh, when I want to get all
Speaker 2: my babies out, you know, and maybe for some people,
Speaker 2: I want to have all my babies by the time
Speaker 2: I'm 35. So for them, it, it would be a
Speaker 2: matter of much more practical considerations, like, what can I
Speaker 2: do it now? Will my boss be happy?
Speaker 2: Um, is, is it OK if I have another baby
Speaker 2: within 2 years? These are the kind of things I
Speaker 2: think that are more on the minds of
Speaker 1: people timing it to things like when the HDB will
Speaker 1: be ready as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so there are other things that
Speaker 2: make it so that the space is quite constrained actually
Speaker 2: for a lot of us.
Speaker 1: But we're also offering opportunities of flexi hours for people.
Speaker 1: And some of the, the goodies is you could have
Speaker 1: up to 9 months of parental leave, which is quite
Speaker 1: a lot. Don't you want to take advantage of that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that there are, uh, definitely, um, um,
Speaker 2: incentives that, you know, and, um, I, I would say, uh, support, uh,
Speaker 2: given to families that people can respond to. Um, I,
Speaker 2: I think it's just a matter, uh, for a lot
Speaker 2: of people of whether they perceive that they can, they can,
Speaker 2: they are in a good place to have children. Um,
Speaker 2: if you look at, if you look at what, when
Speaker 2: you ask people, do you want to have, do you
Speaker 2: want to get married? Do you want to have children?
Speaker 2: Actually, most people would say yes, that would be ideal,
Speaker 2: it's not that they're saying that it necessarily is a
Speaker 2: bad it's something they don't want to have, but where
Speaker 2: is it in the queue is the question. Is it
Speaker 2: at the front of the queue?
Speaker 2: Or is it in the back of the queue? Is
Speaker 2: the front of the queue more like financial stability, and
Speaker 2: if I can get financial stability, I can get, um, uh,
Speaker 2: my family support, um, and other kinds of, uh, social support,
Speaker 2: my networks are up. um, then at that point, at
Speaker 2: the back of the queue, the next item will be
Speaker 2: having a child, right, getting married and so forth. Um,
Speaker 2: the problem is that then you need everything to fall
Speaker 2: in place for a lot of people, and if that
Speaker 2: doesn't happen.
Speaker 2: Right, if it's pushed back too late, you know, or
Speaker 2: there's some kind of setback, then you don't see um
Speaker 2: the bus coming.
Speaker 1: I don't think so much. Um, one of our listeners
Speaker 1: whats up and says, I've got a dragon baby. I
Speaker 1: was so happy when I heard the news. That being said,
Speaker 1: I've never felt more time starved after having a child.
Speaker 1: But it's still worth it, I think. We want to
Speaker 1: have a 2nd kid, but there's just no time. Work
Speaker 1: is too hectic, just like what you were just saying, Prof. Uh,
Speaker 1: another person WhatsApping across and saying, Hi, Daniel and Lance,
Speaker 1: I'm born in the dragon year and I gave birth
Speaker 1: to my #2 in December last year.
Speaker 1: So dragging you about the dragon, that's kind of cool. Uh,
Speaker 1: the cost is high, you need energy to take care
Speaker 1: of the kids and it takes lots of me time
Speaker 1: a couple time. Basically, your kids, your life. Lots of
Speaker 1: my friends in my age bracket are opting to be dinks,
Speaker 1: dual income, no kids, because they have full control of
Speaker 1: their life. They do what they want when they want. Yes,
Speaker 1: but you've got #2.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we just need one more push for number 33,
Speaker 1: we need one more. Hey, replacement rate is 2.7. Talk
Speaker 1: back with Lance and Daniel from 6 p.m. OK, we're
Speaker 1: looking at Singapore's fertility rate, which kind of held steady
Speaker 1: last year.
Speaker 1: At 0.97, even though it was a dragon year. Singapore's
Speaker 1: fertility rate first fell below 1.0 in 2023.
Speaker 1: And by the way, according to some numbers that our
Speaker 1: team dug up, apparently, generally speaking, dragon your numbers are
Speaker 1: diminishing over time.
Speaker 1: Like, in general, it's just going down. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: if you were to compare one dragon year to another
Speaker 1: dragon year la, so in 1976 it was 2.11.
Speaker 1: 1988, it was 1.96%, then it goes down to 1.6, 1.29,
Speaker 1: and now 0.97. So it's been declining. Whether or not
Speaker 1: it's higher than the other years, whether it's higher than monkey,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh, we didn't compare that. We've got
Speaker 1: many of your comments and your questions coming in being
Speaker 1: a part of the show as we ask you why
Speaker 1: didn't the dragon year boost Singapore's birth numbers.
Speaker 1: Uh, Ariel Lim is also joining us in the segment.
Speaker 1: She's a mother of three. She'll be talking to us
Speaker 1: in just a moment, but one of our comments I
Speaker 1: want to read out, our listener says you didn't leave
Speaker 1: your name, uh, let me scroll back, see if you
Speaker 1: left it before. No. OK, so your current comments states,
Speaker 1: just 2 cycles is a change of a generation. How
Speaker 1: many of us still actually follow strong Chinese culture? We're
Speaker 1: influenced by other ideologies. We have couples spending more on
Speaker 1: pets than having a child at home.
Speaker 1: And also, how about looking at childbirth with reference to
Speaker 1: dragon parents. Not many of us became parents when we
Speaker 1: were 24, maybe only when we were 36. So yeah,
Speaker 1: the age that you become a parent directly impacts how
Speaker 1: many kids you're going to have and whether you can
Speaker 1: hit that total replacement rate, which I believe is 2.7. Uh,
Speaker 1: let's go to Ariel Lim, mother of three, joining us
Speaker 1: right now. Hello, Ariel.
Speaker 1: Hello, hello. Hi. So, um, amongst your peer group, I'm
Speaker 1: curious and yourself as well, did the choice of year,
Speaker 1: for example, dragon year, impact your decision?
Speaker 1: I would say I echo what the the previous uh
Speaker 1: comments said about how the zodiac doesn't really matter to, uh,
Speaker 1: my friends and I very much now. So I don't
Speaker 1: think we were like looking out for this year or
Speaker 1: I must give birth to a baby. No need to
Speaker 1: go and pick the definitely not, definitely not. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: would say that's way more common and and I guess
Speaker 1: my generation.
Speaker 1: 30s and yeah. Was it easy for you to conceive?
Speaker 1: Did you struggle at all? Do you know of people
Speaker 1: who are trying to have kids but are struggling? Could
Speaker 1: that be another factor too? It's just more difficult to
Speaker 1: conceive these days.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does seem like I do hear a lot
Speaker 1: more stories of people having trouble conceiving, although it could
Speaker 1: also be social media because, um, you know, these issues
Speaker 1: are people needing to go for IVF or uh assisted
Speaker 1: reproductive uh technologies. Uh, there's a lot more exposure and
Speaker 1: coverage of these issues also in the media, but so
Speaker 1: I wouldn't, yeah, I wouldn't know, you know, actual numbers
Speaker 1: in difficulty of conception, but, um.
Speaker 1: I do hear of people, I guess my age, we
Speaker 1: see a mix, a mixed group. I mean there are
Speaker 1: people who, you know, didn't plan and and then conceived,
Speaker 1: and then we have those people who plan and plan
Speaker 1: and just really find a lot of trouble conceiving, yeah.
Speaker 1: So you're soon to be pregnant now. Yes, yes. Was
Speaker 1: there any hope that could have been a dragon?
Speaker 1: Uh, no, not at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 1: Time is what time is. 9 months is 9 months. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And are any of your other kids dragon babies by
Speaker 1: any chance? No, no. No, I don't actually know what
Speaker 1: I mean what they are, so yeah, it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: to the younger generation. Yeah, I really think not many
Speaker 1: people look at it. Did you have to convince mom
Speaker 1: and dad about that?
Speaker 1: Uh, no, my parents don't really look at it too,
Speaker 1: so I guess it's just, uh, it's also cultural for
Speaker 1: my family. And your thoughts as well, Ari, the Large
Speaker 1: family life HG initiative, which was announced just a couple
Speaker 1: of weeks ago by uh Prime Minister Lawrence Wong.
Speaker 1: Uh, so
Speaker 1: Uh, to be really honest, because he hyped it up at, uh,
Speaker 1: I think it was Edira last year, National Day rally. Uh,
Speaker 1: I really looked forward to it. Yeah, so, um, I
Speaker 1: mean when it came out, I was still very thankful,
Speaker 1: but I was, I was like, oh, OK, it's, it's
Speaker 1: more of in a handout scheme, which is good. I think, uh,
Speaker 1: the money really helps to cover delivery, etc.
Speaker 1: Um, but you know, uh, I've like other friends with
Speaker 1: big families as well, and we were kind of hoping
Speaker 1: of a more schematic, like, you know, maybe COE different
Speaker 1: larger houses built for larger families, you know, something that's
Speaker 1: a bit more categorically different as opposed to like get
Speaker 1: sorry I know, I know it's so interesting to hear
Speaker 1: you use the phrase big family.
Speaker 1: What would you describe as a big, I mean, congratulations,
Speaker 1: well done with 3, you've hit total replacement rate, um,
Speaker 1: which is 2.7%, so you had your 3 well done
Speaker 1: replaced already sorted, um, but what is big family to
Speaker 1: you and to your peers? Because my dad, for example,
Speaker 1: my dad came from a family of 7.
Speaker 1: My mom came from a family of 55 siblings on
Speaker 1: my mom's side, 7 siblings on my dad's side. Yeah,
Speaker 1: on my mom's side they were like 9 siblings. So
Speaker 1: big family as well. Those days are gone, and I've
Speaker 1: got 3 older. How about you? What is big to
Speaker 1: your generation, Ariel?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, I think 3 and more are definitely big.
Speaker 1: I don't know whether 2 will become big too, but anyway,
Speaker 1: 3 and more are definitely considered big in my generation. Uh, yes,
Speaker 1: I do have friends with with 3 and more or
Speaker 1: I do know of people who want 3 and more
Speaker 1: but they're not really the majority and like, you know,
Speaker 1: I guess my parents' generation.
Speaker 1: So my mom has like 6 siblings. Uh, so when
Speaker 1: we heard of this large family scheme now being 3
Speaker 1: and more, uh, we were, I guess surprised and yet
Speaker 1: not surprised at the same time because yeah, frankly when
Speaker 1: you go around anecdotally or like, you know, our experience
Speaker 1: shows that most people have have to.
Speaker 1: Two or less and when you see like, you know,
Speaker 1: families with like 4 or 3, it's like wow, you know, respect, man,
Speaker 1: those two parents heroes, you think it's ebbs and flows
Speaker 1: as well? Do you think currently Singapore is at a
Speaker 1: record low of 0.97? Do you think it will change maybe,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure whether they're going to be even newer initiatives,
Speaker 1: or do you reckon it's just going to continue to
Speaker 1: decline A?
Speaker 1: Are you the exception rather than the norm?
Speaker 1: OK, it does feel like I'm the exception sometimes, um,
Speaker 1: and also I think studies have been done on this,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, uh, and one demographer, she actually said
Speaker 1: that while government policies have been effective in lowering, um, the,
Speaker 1: the total fertility rates around the world, they have not
Speaker 1: seen this kind of success with policies in the other
Speaker 1: direction to raise fertility rates, um, despite, you know, huge
Speaker 1: amounts of spending. So I mean, Singapore isn't an exception
Speaker 1: here and I think what we're seeing is a whole
Speaker 1: like overhaul of like value systems, um.
Speaker 1: You know, people focusing less on like the practicalities of
Speaker 1: like roof over your head, food to eat, uh, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: money and dollars and cents issues and going into more, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, quality of life, uh, you know, do I
Speaker 1: want to sacrifice my life for like kids whom I
Speaker 1: don't know will be grateful to me in the future.
Speaker 1: So that's what we hear a lot, um, on the
Speaker 1: streets at least, uh, and whether that's good or bad,
Speaker 1: I mean,
Speaker 1: We all have our personal opinions, right? Yeah. So it's
Speaker 1: a little difficult to change, change minds on this. I
Speaker 1: feel in our current uh generation, yeah. I'm 44 and
Speaker 1: I just remembered one of my classmates from junior college
Speaker 1: who married his junior college sweetheart, by the way, they
Speaker 1: have 6 kids.
Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, every time we see them posting photos of
Speaker 1: their children, we're like, which one is this one? Like,
Speaker 1: his goal is to build his own soccer team. That's
Speaker 1: what he says. He's getting close, half a team at
Speaker 1: least his goal, right? If he and the mom joins in,
Speaker 1: that's 8 of them right there. But that's, that's.
Speaker 1: That's wild, right? To have a family today that has
Speaker 1: 6 kids. That's wild, very common in the past, not today,
Speaker 1: not today. So what do you think is, I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously our fertility rates are low. And Ariel, like you said,
Speaker 1: it was wonderful to see some of those um support
Speaker 1: measures that were announced as well. What would you like
Speaker 1: to see just from a family point of view, I mean,
Speaker 1: do you, I think 3 is the perfect number. I
Speaker 1: come from a family of 3. I have an older
Speaker 1: sister and a younger brother who's just right. I'm the
Speaker 1: middle child, which is the best one.
Speaker 1: Studies have proven it. OK, studies have proven it. Um,
Speaker 1: do you think 3 is the ideal?
Speaker 1: Uh, well, I mean, I'm definitely open to having more.
Speaker 1: I hope my husband's not listening in on this now.
Speaker 1: But anyway, yeah, uh, it's interesting because actually, um, one
Speaker 1: of the organizations I, I help out with, uh, we
Speaker 1: did a survey of like parents, I mean, uh, I
Speaker 1: mean families in Singapore, and we found that about 24%
Speaker 1: of uh married couples do want to have 3 or
Speaker 1: more kids, just that, uh, whether they realize it or not.
Speaker 1: Another issue I think what is the issue? The issue is,
Speaker 1: is it because they're starting later, so fertility becomes a
Speaker 1: medical issue? Is it because waiting for HDB? Is it
Speaker 1: because too costly? Those are all the things that keep
Speaker 1: getting mentioned on our show. What is the one for
Speaker 1: you that stands out?
Speaker 1: Uh, I mean, it definitely is costly, uh, and, and,
Speaker 1: you know, when you really crunching the numbers, you do
Speaker 1: see there's a lot of opportunity costs like the amount
Speaker 1: of money that's going into little human beings, OK, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, good, um, you know, it takes away from
Speaker 1: everything else. Yeah, but, uh, I mean, in our interface
Speaker 1: with a lot of larger families, we find that there's
Speaker 1: a common threads that, that, you know, go into their their.
Speaker 1: Thinking, which is that, you know, again, not the dollars
Speaker 1: and cents considerations, but the value and meaning about, you know,
Speaker 1: having children and building families, uh, plus the worth and
Speaker 1: potential of these children. OK, I'm so sorry my kids
Speaker 1: in the background. No, no, never apologize, yeah, you've got kids. Uh,
Speaker 1: tell us about your ecosystem as well, you know, have
Speaker 1: you got good parental support? Have you got um a
Speaker 1: good uh uh friends and relatives who are there for you?
Speaker 1: Have you got a, a boss that's also quite understanding,
Speaker 1: so it all works out quite well because if you
Speaker 1: need help, it's easy to get it, Ariel.
Speaker 1: Yes, so the help, the ecosystem of help is definitely
Speaker 1: essential for for large families, I find, um, and it's
Speaker 1: not just about the direct ecosystem, also the indirect ecosystem
Speaker 1: that kind of cheers you on, you know, is in
Speaker 1: the the deep with you, uh, you know, other families
Speaker 1: with large, you know, as in with with X number
Speaker 1: of kids and and counting. So friends who understand you,
Speaker 1: that's important. Uh, another thing I was thinking of, um,
Speaker 1: was also grandparent leave, you know, because we're we're seeing
Speaker 1: a generation of like younger grandparents who are not, you know.
Speaker 1: Ready to retire yet, and yet they're still kind of
Speaker 1: willing to be quite hands-on with children. So I mean
Speaker 1: my friends and I were talking about this and you
Speaker 1: know there's also a push to to kind of involve
Speaker 1: grandparents in this whole um ecosystem, right? So yeah, we
Speaker 1: were thinking oh maybe grandparents leave for the working grandparents,
Speaker 1: but I know that that's a quite a niche area.
Speaker 1: Are you thinking about the future where you could be
Speaker 1: caught up with your kids and looking after your aging?
Speaker 1: That could happen, um, and I think that's a reality
Speaker 1: for a lot of uh families and it's also one
Speaker 1: of the government's fears, I think the increase of sandwich
Speaker 1: families uh where only a few children will be supporting, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: the aging and then the the the the young and vulnerable. So, uh,
Speaker 1: for me, I think, uh, we have, because I'm still,
Speaker 1: I guess, relatively young, we can still prepare for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we're still thinking about that, putting some money aside.
Speaker 1: So I guess there really are a lot of monetary
Speaker 1: and financial considerations for all these things, uh, and they
Speaker 1: are very real. Ariel Lim, who is a mother of three,
Speaker 1: on Talkback, our question for today, why did the dragoner
Speaker 1: not boost Singapore's birth numbers? Thank you for your calls
Speaker 1: and thank you for uh joining us on WhatsApp as well.