1 00:00:00,150 --> 00:00:03,710 Speaker 1: Hello, work it, followers and listeners. It's incredible how time 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:07,010 Speaker 1: flies and it's already December. The CN A podcast team 3 00:00:07,019 --> 00:00:09,549 Speaker 1: takes the season break for this month. But we wanted 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: to resell face a few of our top performing episodes 5 00:00:13,250 --> 00:00:16,159 Speaker 1: which you may have missed last week. We replayed our 6 00:00:16,170 --> 00:00:18,889 Speaker 1: chat with D BS CEO P. Gupta. Coming in a 7 00:00:18,899 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: very close again is one of our personal favorite with 8 00:00:22,450 --> 00:00:25,558 Speaker 1: former law society president, Adrian Tan. My name is sick. 9 00:00:25,854 --> 00:00:28,545 Speaker 1: Yeah. Some of you may know that Adrian succumbed to 10 00:00:28,555 --> 00:00:32,185 Speaker 1: cancer and passed away earlier this year. But what you 11 00:00:32,194 --> 00:00:35,564 Speaker 1: may not know is that when he first went public 12 00:00:35,575 --> 00:00:39,615 Speaker 1: with his diagnosis, we reached out to him and you know, 13 00:00:39,625 --> 00:00:43,305 Speaker 1: he said yes, immediately, we hope you enjoyed this episode 14 00:00:43,314 --> 00:00:45,654 Speaker 1: when a man who is very much missed by everyone 15 00:00:45,665 --> 00:00:48,723 Speaker 1: else right now had so much to say about work 16 00:00:48,735 --> 00:00:51,043 Speaker 1: and leaving out one's true purpose. 17 00:00:51,848 --> 00:00:55,889 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast doors are closing. 18 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,510 Speaker 1: Hello, everyone and welcome back to work it. I have 19 00:01:20,519 --> 00:01:23,260 Speaker 1: a disclaimer to make right off the bat. I'm a 20 00:01:23,269 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: fan of our guest today, especially his posts online and 21 00:01:27,489 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: his excellent speeches. What's interesting is I actually share the 22 00:01:30,970 --> 00:01:33,839 Speaker 1: same name as him. Adrian Tan Gim Hai is a 23 00:01:33,849 --> 00:01:36,849 Speaker 1: name familiar to many. He is the law society president 24 00:01:36,860 --> 00:01:39,580 Speaker 1: and partner at TS MP Law Corporation. 25 00:01:40,129 --> 00:01:42,449 Speaker 1: But many of you may remember him as the author 26 00:01:42,459 --> 00:01:45,199 Speaker 1: of the teenage textbook, as well as the teenage workbook, 27 00:01:45,209 --> 00:01:48,459 Speaker 1: which at the risk of revealing my age I read 28 00:01:48,550 --> 00:01:52,449 Speaker 1: and I loved as did many generations of 18 year olds, 29 00:01:52,529 --> 00:01:54,550 Speaker 1: Adrian has been in the news again recently at this 30 00:01:54,559 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: time for most 31 00:01:55,455 --> 00:01:58,915 Speaker 1: sobering reasons, he revealed he had cancer and has said 32 00:01:58,925 --> 00:02:02,214 Speaker 1: he will continue working through his treatment. So we want 33 00:02:02,224 --> 00:02:05,555 Speaker 1: to get his views on a few things, quiet, quitting 34 00:02:05,565 --> 00:02:08,955 Speaker 1: leadership and life lessons. What he would do if he 35 00:02:08,964 --> 00:02:10,615 Speaker 1: were really king of Singapore. 36 00:02:12,169 --> 00:02:17,570 Speaker 1: Thanks Adrian Tan lawyer for joining us on the park today. 37 00:02:17,669 --> 00:02:18,229 Speaker 1: I'm 38 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 2: very excited Christina and I'm also excited to be with 39 00:02:21,250 --> 00:02:24,660 Speaker 2: your co-host. I forgot his name. It's not familiar name. 40 00:02:24,710 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: You're right. This is the first time Christina, your co-host 41 00:02:27,610 --> 00:02:30,210 Speaker 2: is Adrian Tan. Your guest is Adrian Tan. And I 42 00:02:30,220 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: want to say on behalf of all Adrians everywhere, every 43 00:02:34,089 --> 00:02:35,779 Speaker 2: Adrian is a good Adrian. 44 00:02:35,820 --> 00:02:38,580 Speaker 1: Ok, I believe you. Because the two Adrians, I know 45 00:02:38,589 --> 00:02:40,270 Speaker 1: now they are good agents. 46 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: Ok. Let me start. So first I wanted to ask 47 00:02:43,610 --> 00:02:46,820 Speaker 1: you how you're doing because you've been in the news recently, 48 00:02:47,020 --> 00:02:49,299 Speaker 1: we know that you were named president of the law 49 00:02:49,309 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: Society in January and then in March, you've got your diagnosis. 50 00:02:53,169 --> 00:02:56,339 Speaker 1: So in a space of just two months, your entire 51 00:02:56,350 --> 00:02:58,300 Speaker 1: world must have kind of changed. 52 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,729 Speaker 2: So this is a thing about life work and, 53 00:03:01,830 --> 00:03:06,220 Speaker 2: and about planning. Last year, I was working like a dog. 54 00:03:06,229 --> 00:03:09,839 Speaker 2: I was barely sleeping. And I said, well in 2022 55 00:03:09,850 --> 00:03:13,009 Speaker 2: I'm going to do even more. I plan to become 56 00:03:13,020 --> 00:03:16,149 Speaker 2: president of Law Society of Singapore. I've got so many 57 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,750 Speaker 2: plans and I'm going to sleep only two hours a 58 00:03:19,758 --> 00:03:22,489 Speaker 2: night because I'm going to be working as a lawyer 59 00:03:22,889 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 2: and as president of the Law Society 60 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: two hours a night. Was that what you were averaging? 61 00:03:28,070 --> 00:03:30,250 Speaker 2: That was my plan for this year, 2022. 62 00:03:30,550 --> 00:03:33,948 Speaker 2: And then I decided, ok, we'll go for it in 63 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,589 Speaker 2: January and February, I just went at 100 miles an 64 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,690 Speaker 2: hour and then I felt, oh, I'm really feeling very down. 65 00:03:40,699 --> 00:03:43,169 Speaker 2: I'm feeling very exhausted. I went to see the doctor, 66 00:03:43,330 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 2: the doctor says, well, guess what? You have cancer and 67 00:03:46,610 --> 00:03:50,529 Speaker 2: it's not a regular ntuc fair price type cancer. It's 68 00:03:50,539 --> 00:03:54,339 Speaker 2: a very rare cancer. That very exclusive. So I don't 69 00:03:54,350 --> 00:03:55,839 Speaker 2: know whether to feel happy or sad. 70 00:03:56,399 --> 00:04:00,869 Speaker 2: He said that I need to get chemotherapy and he 71 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,300 Speaker 2: said I needed two things which is to rest a 72 00:04:04,309 --> 00:04:08,979 Speaker 2: lot and not to have stress. Now in my life, 73 00:04:08,990 --> 00:04:12,860 Speaker 2: it's the opposite. I hardly rest and I have stress 74 00:04:12,869 --> 00:04:15,550 Speaker 2: all the time. So I wasn't sure how I was 75 00:04:15,559 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 2: going to manage all my friends. Very nice to me. 76 00:04:18,329 --> 00:04:19,619 Speaker 2: They gave me this advice, 77 00:04:20,029 --> 00:04:24,010 Speaker 2: drop everything, do your bucket list because they're my friends. 78 00:04:24,019 --> 00:04:26,178 Speaker 2: I listen to them and say, ok, let me do 79 00:04:26,190 --> 00:04:29,659 Speaker 2: my bucket list. I realized to my horror, I don't 80 00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:33,058 Speaker 2: have a bucket list. What I was doing as a 81 00:04:33,070 --> 00:04:38,058 Speaker 2: lawyer was my bucket list. As president of law society 82 00:04:38,070 --> 00:04:41,230 Speaker 2: was my bucket list. So I didn't have an urge 83 00:04:41,238 --> 00:04:45,299 Speaker 2: to see the Sahara desert or to go scuba diving. 84 00:04:46,119 --> 00:04:48,539 Speaker 2: I just wanted to keep doing what I was doing. 85 00:04:48,928 --> 00:04:52,019 Speaker 2: And my friends all said, look, you have to stop working. 86 00:04:52,029 --> 00:04:55,579 Speaker 2: This is a time where you got to relax, enjoy 87 00:04:55,750 --> 00:05:00,868 Speaker 2: and chill. And again, I tried that for about 6 88 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,859 Speaker 2: to 12 hours, six. And then I gave up because 89 00:05:03,869 --> 00:05:07,130 Speaker 2: it's like really short. I know it wasn't a great experiment, 90 00:05:07,140 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: but I can't sit around for 6 to 12 hours 91 00:05:09,649 --> 00:05:13,769 Speaker 2: and do nothing. And that got me to my identity 92 00:05:13,779 --> 00:05:15,899 Speaker 2: and I believe each of us has an identity 93 00:05:16,309 --> 00:05:19,010 Speaker 2: and my identity is to do stuff 94 00:05:19,540 --> 00:05:23,489 Speaker 2: and to speak up and to meet people and I 95 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:27,250 Speaker 2: can't change that identity. And I think that's the first 96 00:05:27,260 --> 00:05:31,339 Speaker 2: error that people make. Sometimes they read books, they listen 97 00:05:31,350 --> 00:05:33,399 Speaker 2: to podcasts and you think this is how I need 98 00:05:33,410 --> 00:05:36,670 Speaker 2: to change. And before we even think about changing, we 99 00:05:36,678 --> 00:05:39,428 Speaker 2: have to figure out what's the essence of us, what's 100 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,660 Speaker 2: our identity, what makes us us So, for me it's 101 00:05:43,670 --> 00:05:47,149 Speaker 2: someone who goes at 100 miles an hour and has 102 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 2: a lot of stress and if I have cancer 103 00:05:49,113 --> 00:05:52,535 Speaker 2: too bad for the cancer because it has to take 104 00:05:52,545 --> 00:05:56,204 Speaker 2: a number. Just sorry, cancer, normal people give you a 105 00:05:56,214 --> 00:05:56,974 Speaker 2: lot of priority. 106 00:05:56,984 --> 00:06:00,844 Speaker 1: It's like screw you cancer. I'm just going to keep going. 107 00:06:01,053 --> 00:06:01,065 Speaker 1: I 108 00:06:01,075 --> 00:06:05,015 Speaker 2: guess it's probably very bad medical advice. So, anybody out there, yes, 109 00:06:05,024 --> 00:06:05,095 Speaker 2: I 110 00:06:05,105 --> 00:06:07,644 Speaker 1: think your doctor might not approve. Actually, we are not 111 00:06:07,654 --> 00:06:09,044 Speaker 1: giving medical advice here. So 112 00:06:09,053 --> 00:06:12,854 Speaker 2: very good disclaimer. I can give legal advice. But if 113 00:06:12,863 --> 00:06:15,934 Speaker 2: you hear medical advice from me, please do the opposite. Ok. 114 00:06:16,184 --> 00:06:18,613 Speaker 2: So right now I'm still having treatment 115 00:06:18,928 --> 00:06:21,109 Speaker 2: to my horror. I've lost all my hair, 116 00:06:21,119 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: but you still look great. Actually, 117 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:23,909 Speaker 2: you're so polite 118 00:06:26,130 --> 00:06:29,820 Speaker 2: and I've started going out to meet people to give speeches, 119 00:06:29,869 --> 00:06:32,940 Speaker 2: to attend events and that's it. If I wasn't president 120 00:06:32,950 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 2: of law society, I wouldn't tell anyone that I have cancer. 121 00:06:37,170 --> 00:06:40,058 Speaker 2: It's just my luck that it's happened this year of 122 00:06:40,070 --> 00:06:41,099 Speaker 2: all years. 123 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,079 Speaker 1: It's a message. I feel like the universe is trying 124 00:06:44,089 --> 00:06:44,809 Speaker 1: to send you 125 00:06:45,178 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: that you should slow down. But you're telling the universe no, 126 00:06:48,170 --> 00:06:50,988 Speaker 1: I'm not going to slow down. That's just not me. Yes. 127 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,549 Speaker 2: And I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing, 128 00:06:53,678 --> 00:06:57,730 Speaker 2: but I know only I can't do the opposite. And 129 00:06:57,738 --> 00:07:00,609 Speaker 2: there are lawyers who have cancer. In fact, once I 130 00:07:00,619 --> 00:07:01,589 Speaker 2: wrote about this, 131 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,570 Speaker 2: I received so many messages from lawyers as well as 132 00:07:04,579 --> 00:07:07,850 Speaker 2: from people who are working in other jobs. And they 133 00:07:07,859 --> 00:07:10,929 Speaker 2: tell me about their experiences of cancer. They're mostly cancer 134 00:07:10,940 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 2: survivors because the dead people can't message me except during 135 00:07:14,049 --> 00:07:16,619 Speaker 2: seven months. But that's a different thing. A lot of 136 00:07:16,630 --> 00:07:18,220 Speaker 2: inspirational messages. 137 00:07:18,630 --> 00:07:22,250 Speaker 2: There's a whole group of people who have won this battle. 138 00:07:22,579 --> 00:07:25,690 Speaker 2: Lawyers who have gone to court in the midst of 139 00:07:25,700 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 2: chemotherapy to argue cases for their clients. I think they 140 00:07:29,010 --> 00:07:32,450 Speaker 2: all say the same thing that if you're in a vocation, 141 00:07:32,540 --> 00:07:34,690 Speaker 2: which means if your job is your calling, 142 00:07:34,815 --> 00:07:36,894 Speaker 2: if this is what you're meant to do is part 143 00:07:36,904 --> 00:07:39,795 Speaker 2: of your identity, then it's impossible to give it up. 144 00:07:39,804 --> 00:07:41,774 Speaker 2: It's like asking you to let go of your arm 145 00:07:41,785 --> 00:07:42,834 Speaker 2: or your leg, right? 146 00:07:42,845 --> 00:07:45,375 Speaker 1: I think this resonates with a lot of audience out 147 00:07:45,385 --> 00:07:48,704 Speaker 1: there in Singapore, especially given studies have shown that we 148 00:07:48,714 --> 00:07:50,875 Speaker 1: are one of the hardest working population. 149 00:07:51,329 --> 00:07:53,940 Speaker 1: Many people, they don't just want to leave, they basically 150 00:07:53,950 --> 00:07:57,380 Speaker 1: leave to work. I've even seen a very funny meme 151 00:07:57,390 --> 00:08:01,369 Speaker 1: about how European would set their out of office message. 152 00:08:01,380 --> 00:08:03,510 Speaker 1: It will be something like, oh, I'm going away for 153 00:08:03,519 --> 00:08:05,570 Speaker 1: a three months cruise. We will be back in September. 154 00:08:05,579 --> 00:08:08,579 Speaker 1: We reply to email then how Asian or maybe a 155 00:08:08,589 --> 00:08:12,049 Speaker 1: Singaporean will put it. Oh, I'm in intensive care unit 156 00:08:12,059 --> 00:08:13,459 Speaker 1: but reachable by hand phone. 157 00:08:14,649 --> 00:08:16,820 Speaker 1: I love it. So does it have to come down 158 00:08:16,829 --> 00:08:20,299 Speaker 1: to something so serious before we really confront our attitudes 159 00:08:20,309 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: and culture to work. And also why do you think 160 00:08:22,649 --> 00:08:25,450 Speaker 1: we are all seem to be so type a personality 161 00:08:25,459 --> 00:08:28,609 Speaker 1: trying to chase whatever next dragon in front of us. 162 00:08:28,750 --> 00:08:31,260 Speaker 2: Well, you can call it a type, a personality. I 163 00:08:31,269 --> 00:08:34,599 Speaker 2: call it a type s personality. As for Singaporean, 164 00:08:35,059 --> 00:08:40,929 Speaker 2: we have this history. We came here to work. Gradually, 165 00:08:40,940 --> 00:08:45,739 Speaker 2: traders came, business people came and they left their own homes, 166 00:08:45,780 --> 00:08:48,700 Speaker 2: not because they wanted to find a relaxing life. We 167 00:08:48,710 --> 00:08:52,689 Speaker 2: actually have immigrant forefathers who came here because they wanted 168 00:08:52,700 --> 00:08:56,809 Speaker 2: to work because they wanted to build something for their family. 169 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,659 Speaker 2: So when you select a group like that and you 170 00:08:59,669 --> 00:09:02,109 Speaker 2: ask them to come to one place and you concentrate 171 00:09:02,119 --> 00:09:04,069 Speaker 2: and focus them into this h 172 00:09:04,429 --> 00:09:08,929 Speaker 2: this is actually a collection of hard working people from China, 173 00:09:08,940 --> 00:09:12,359 Speaker 2: from India, from everywhere and you put them all here. 174 00:09:12,369 --> 00:09:15,739 Speaker 2: And as a social experiment, they will just inspire each 175 00:09:15,750 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 2: other to do more and more stuff. We make fun 176 00:09:19,690 --> 00:09:22,809 Speaker 2: of ourselves. That's the thing about Singaporeans. We know ourselves 177 00:09:22,820 --> 00:09:26,409 Speaker 2: very well and we can't let go of work. And 178 00:09:26,419 --> 00:09:28,770 Speaker 2: many outsiders criticize us for that 179 00:09:29,030 --> 00:09:32,039 Speaker 2: because they feel that their way is the best way 180 00:09:32,049 --> 00:09:35,669 Speaker 2: that there should be a lot of time spent fishing 181 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,250 Speaker 2: or relaxing or seeing the world and maybe they are right? 182 00:09:38,539 --> 00:09:42,098 Speaker 2: But it's not our identity who are our heroes. If 183 00:09:42,109 --> 00:09:45,218 Speaker 2: you look at Singapore, we don't have these war heroes 184 00:09:45,229 --> 00:09:48,770 Speaker 2: that won big battles or civil rights heroes that march 185 00:09:48,780 --> 00:09:51,630 Speaker 2: in the streets. So heroes tend to be. 186 00:09:52,479 --> 00:09:56,989 Speaker 2: It's kind of weird business tycoons or workaholics, basically. That's right. 187 00:09:57,229 --> 00:10:00,150 Speaker 2: That's right. If you see who our streets are named after, 188 00:10:00,159 --> 00:10:02,219 Speaker 2: they will be like prosperous business people, 189 00:10:02,429 --> 00:10:05,949 Speaker 1: Adrian, I feel like nothing clarifies what you really, really 190 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,229 Speaker 1: care about in life when you face your own mortality. 191 00:10:09,250 --> 00:10:12,449 Speaker 1: I've heard this from people who have had cancer diagnosis 192 00:10:12,460 --> 00:10:14,619 Speaker 1: and they say work is the last thing I'm gonna 193 00:10:14,630 --> 00:10:18,859 Speaker 1: care about. I'm really going to quit travel, do all 194 00:10:18,869 --> 00:10:19,659 Speaker 1: the things because 195 00:10:19,859 --> 00:10:23,580 Speaker 1: I've always just worked now that I have a chance. 196 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 1: I would do it. I feel like the way you 197 00:10:26,090 --> 00:10:28,789 Speaker 1: approach it is quite different from the norm. Like what 198 00:10:28,799 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: I would do, for example, I think I'll 199 00:10:30,650 --> 00:10:34,179 Speaker 2: quit first if you do something different. If you quit, 200 00:10:34,190 --> 00:10:36,609 Speaker 2: that's great as well. So long as it is what 201 00:10:36,619 --> 00:10:39,869 Speaker 2: you want. My fear is that sometimes we follow other 202 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,809 Speaker 2: people's templates, right? In Singapore, we create for templates. Even 203 00:10:43,820 --> 00:10:46,859 Speaker 2: before Children are born, parents have already got the temp 204 00:10:47,210 --> 00:10:50,070 Speaker 2: out and said once my child is born, my child 205 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,978 Speaker 2: will go to this preschool, that primary school at this age. 206 00:10:53,150 --> 00:10:55,380 Speaker 2: My child will graduate at this age. Going into the 207 00:10:55,390 --> 00:10:58,210 Speaker 2: army at this age, have a university degree at this age, 208 00:10:58,219 --> 00:11:00,270 Speaker 2: get a job at this age, get married at this age, 209 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,130 Speaker 2: get Children this age, retire. And there is a whole 210 00:11:03,140 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 2: template that somebody else did for you. So if you 211 00:11:06,890 --> 00:11:09,909 Speaker 2: stop working, if you have a diagnosis of cancer or 212 00:11:09,919 --> 00:11:13,669 Speaker 2: if you just retire, do the thing that you want 213 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:14,179 Speaker 2: to do. 214 00:11:14,659 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 2: The danger is that we blindly adopt somebody else's template 215 00:11:19,260 --> 00:11:23,219 Speaker 2: and especially important in Singapore because Singapore is a very 216 00:11:23,229 --> 00:11:27,150 Speaker 2: didactic or top down society. We are very comfortable with 217 00:11:27,159 --> 00:11:29,659 Speaker 2: authority telling us, do this, do that. This is good 218 00:11:29,669 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 2: for you, that's good for you. 219 00:11:31,210 --> 00:11:34,309 Speaker 2: And sometimes I feel we also need to develop the 220 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,039 Speaker 2: other instinct of I need to know myself. So when 221 00:11:38,049 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 2: I had this diagnosis, I realized what I really wanted 222 00:11:40,849 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 2: to do was to write a lot because I wanted 223 00:11:43,969 --> 00:11:49,150 Speaker 2: to tell Singaporeans a lot of stuff about law about society, 224 00:11:49,159 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 2: about our history, about what I think about issues. 225 00:11:59,700 --> 00:12:02,549 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Steven Chow and I host the new season 226 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,650 Speaker 1: of our podcast, Heart of The Matter. Join me in 227 00:12:05,659 --> 00:12:08,049 Speaker 1: getting right to the heart of the headlines as we 228 00:12:08,059 --> 00:12:11,250 Speaker 1: speak with experts and newsmakers to delve deep into the 229 00:12:11,260 --> 00:12:14,968 Speaker 1: most talked about news developments, look out for our episodes 230 00:12:14,979 --> 00:12:16,728 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts 231 00:12:24,270 --> 00:12:26,608 Speaker 1: and on the opposite spectrum. Of course, what you have 232 00:12:26,619 --> 00:12:30,169 Speaker 1: been going through as a so called tight s personality 233 00:12:30,229 --> 00:12:33,409 Speaker 1: is something that has been trending online recently a lot, 234 00:12:33,419 --> 00:12:36,729 Speaker 1: which is called Quiet Quitting, which in my opinion is 235 00:12:36,739 --> 00:12:38,869 Speaker 1: basically a new term for something that we've been seeing 236 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,159 Speaker 1: for the longest time. And it started with a 25 237 00:12:41,169 --> 00:12:43,700 Speaker 1: year old software engineer who posted a tiktok video saying 238 00:12:43,710 --> 00:12:46,159 Speaker 1: that he's quitting the idea of going above and beyond 239 00:12:46,169 --> 00:12:46,729 Speaker 1: at work. 240 00:12:47,090 --> 00:12:50,039 Speaker 1: So there's some confusion about what it really means. Some 241 00:12:50,049 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 1: people say it legitimizes disengagement, laziness at work. Obviously, you're 242 00:12:54,570 --> 00:12:57,380 Speaker 1: not someone who does the bare minimum. What is your 243 00:12:57,390 --> 00:12:58,789 Speaker 1: take on this aspect? 244 00:12:59,070 --> 00:13:02,059 Speaker 2: We must stay true to our identity. The person who 245 00:13:02,070 --> 00:13:05,750 Speaker 2: is quiet, quitting is actually saying that this job is not, 246 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,150 Speaker 2: his life is not his vocation is not his calling. 247 00:13:09,479 --> 00:13:11,830 Speaker 2: And I can totally relate to that if I was 248 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,549 Speaker 2: in a dead end job, something which does not inspire me. 249 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,969 Speaker 2: I would quite quit too or I would noisy quit. 250 00:13:19,260 --> 00:13:22,830 Speaker 2: The point really is that I wouldn't like it. So 251 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,780 Speaker 2: if people are saying they are doing the minimum, what 252 00:13:25,789 --> 00:13:29,659 Speaker 2: I'm hearing is that they are saying they are not 253 00:13:29,669 --> 00:13:32,929 Speaker 2: a good fit for their job and they need to 254 00:13:32,940 --> 00:13:34,210 Speaker 2: find a better fit. 255 00:13:34,669 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 2: I would recommend that if people feel like quiet quitting, 256 00:13:37,770 --> 00:13:40,109 Speaker 2: then they must listen to their bodies, listen to their 257 00:13:40,119 --> 00:13:43,369 Speaker 2: soul and say, ok, I obviously don't like this. So 258 00:13:43,380 --> 00:13:46,750 Speaker 2: what am I here for? Some common answers will be, 259 00:13:46,780 --> 00:13:51,089 Speaker 2: I'm here to pay the mortgage because I want financial security. 260 00:13:51,270 --> 00:13:53,369 Speaker 2: I want to provide for my family and that's my 261 00:13:53,380 --> 00:13:55,710 Speaker 2: goal in that case, that's fine, 262 00:13:56,059 --> 00:13:59,989 Speaker 2: that's perfectly legitimate. You are just trading your time for 263 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 2: financial security for your family and that's quite a selfless 264 00:14:03,210 --> 00:14:06,150 Speaker 2: and noble thing in Asia, we price that. What I 265 00:14:06,159 --> 00:14:08,570 Speaker 2: don't like is people who are not interested to find 266 00:14:08,580 --> 00:14:11,830 Speaker 2: their real passion, right? They feel that this is life, 267 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,270 Speaker 2: the man pays me. So I got to sit here 268 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,069 Speaker 2: and watch the clock and the moment it's five 269 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 2: not going to answer my emails. I think that's a 270 00:14:20,450 --> 00:14:22,260 Speaker 2: waste of person's life. 271 00:14:22,270 --> 00:14:24,260 Speaker 1: I was just going to follow up and ask you, 272 00:14:24,419 --> 00:14:27,559 Speaker 1: I'm sure in your career you have worked with people 273 00:14:27,570 --> 00:14:30,020 Speaker 1: like that who just only do the bare minimum. Or 274 00:14:30,030 --> 00:14:32,159 Speaker 1: if you ask them, hey, can you help me with this? 275 00:14:32,169 --> 00:14:34,580 Speaker 1: And then they'll be like, no, no, no, it's already 530. 276 00:14:34,590 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: I got to go and then all they switch off 277 00:14:36,450 --> 00:14:38,260 Speaker 1: their phones over the weekend. 278 00:14:38,690 --> 00:14:41,270 Speaker 1: Does it annoy you or do you just accept it 279 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,750 Speaker 1: and say that's who he is? Yes, 280 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,150 Speaker 2: I have indeed met such people in our job which 281 00:14:47,159 --> 00:14:51,409 Speaker 2: is litigation. It's a very competitive environment. So if you 282 00:14:51,419 --> 00:14:55,010 Speaker 2: have that attitude, you won't last long because you will 283 00:14:55,020 --> 00:14:58,700 Speaker 2: be a terrible litigator. People will see you as to 284 00:14:58,922 --> 00:15:02,492 Speaker 2: the minimum, which means that they can outfight you. They 285 00:15:02,502 --> 00:15:05,932 Speaker 2: can outlast you, they can win by not being smarter 286 00:15:05,942 --> 00:15:11,112 Speaker 2: but just working harder. Actually working hard is not rocket science. 287 00:15:11,343 --> 00:15:14,953 Speaker 2: And if people don't even want to do that, then 288 00:15:14,973 --> 00:15:17,953 Speaker 2: I think they will be taken advantage of the person 289 00:15:17,963 --> 00:15:18,833 Speaker 2: who is quiet critic 290 00:15:18,935 --> 00:15:21,466 Speaker 2: may think I'm taking advantage of my boss, I'm just 291 00:15:21,476 --> 00:15:24,106 Speaker 2: doing the bare minimum. But in fact, maybe your boss 292 00:15:24,116 --> 00:15:26,995 Speaker 2: is taking advantage of you because your boss knows, ok, 293 00:15:27,005 --> 00:15:29,356 Speaker 2: this person is a robot. I just pay this amount 294 00:15:29,366 --> 00:15:31,986 Speaker 2: and this person will produce this. It may not be great, 295 00:15:31,995 --> 00:15:34,596 Speaker 2: but this person is not ambitious. I don't have to 296 00:15:34,606 --> 00:15:38,005 Speaker 2: worry about that. Other people will compete and rise above 297 00:15:38,015 --> 00:15:41,455 Speaker 2: this person. Is that what we want? I don't get 298 00:15:41,466 --> 00:15:42,435 Speaker 2: that at all. 299 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,989 Speaker 1: So in other words, it's quite obvious, like if you 300 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,979 Speaker 1: are a quiet quitter in that negative way, rather than 301 00:15:49,309 --> 00:15:52,559 Speaker 1: somebody who just feels like their workload is too much 302 00:15:52,570 --> 00:15:55,539 Speaker 1: and they will only do this much. There's a difference 303 00:15:55,549 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: and it's a discernible difference. You can tell 304 00:15:58,349 --> 00:16:01,020 Speaker 2: exactly if your workload is too much. 305 00:16:01,349 --> 00:16:03,179 Speaker 2: The first thing you have to do is you have 306 00:16:03,190 --> 00:16:06,750 Speaker 2: to tell your boss because that's your responsibility to yourself. 307 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,090 Speaker 2: You have to speak up for yourself and say boss, 308 00:16:09,099 --> 00:16:11,690 Speaker 2: this is just too much and the danger is that 309 00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:13,309 Speaker 2: give me so much stuff, I'm going to drop the 310 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:15,809 Speaker 2: ball in something because no human being can do all this. 311 00:16:16,140 --> 00:16:18,330 Speaker 2: If I drop the ball, that's a problem for you. 312 00:16:18,570 --> 00:16:18,890 Speaker 2: So 313 00:16:18,969 --> 00:16:20,969 Speaker 2: why don't you fix it? And if your boss doesn't 314 00:16:20,979 --> 00:16:24,260 Speaker 2: fix it, then you fix it by looking to leave 315 00:16:24,270 --> 00:16:27,789 Speaker 2: and go elsewhere because it's a great job market right now. 316 00:16:28,049 --> 00:16:32,950 Speaker 2: I'm hearing that there are employers looking for talent and 317 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,580 Speaker 2: it's quite hard to find talent, not just in the 318 00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:36,469 Speaker 2: legal industry, 319 00:16:36,750 --> 00:16:40,460 Speaker 2: but generally all employers are saying, well, young people nowadays, 320 00:16:40,469 --> 00:16:43,559 Speaker 2: we need to really entice them to come and do this. 321 00:16:43,570 --> 00:16:46,700 Speaker 2: We need to give them flexible hours more, pay, more recognition. 322 00:16:46,890 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 2: We've never had this in Singapore as far as I 323 00:16:48,890 --> 00:16:51,820 Speaker 2: can remember. So, for young people right now, if you're 324 00:16:51,830 --> 00:16:54,130 Speaker 2: in a dead end job, it's your fault because there's 325 00:16:54,140 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: so many opportunities out there. Do you just look and 326 00:16:56,890 --> 00:16:58,489 Speaker 2: if you don't want to look, that's on you. 327 00:16:58,710 --> 00:17:00,580 Speaker 1: So the message to our audience out there, 328 00:17:00,674 --> 00:17:03,294 Speaker 1: if you want to quit, don't quite quit, just quit. 329 00:17:03,304 --> 00:17:05,974 Speaker 1: That's right. Because as Adrian A G has mentioned, it 330 00:17:05,984 --> 00:17:09,755 Speaker 1: is really a fantastic employees market right now. Of course, 331 00:17:09,765 --> 00:17:12,155 Speaker 1: having said that for people who may find something that 332 00:17:12,165 --> 00:17:16,333 Speaker 1: they really enjoy and really aspire to get into, would 333 00:17:16,344 --> 00:17:19,344 Speaker 1: it also then lead into a situation where it is 334 00:17:19,354 --> 00:17:21,454 Speaker 1: something that you have experienced over the past few years, 335 00:17:21,464 --> 00:17:24,494 Speaker 1: which is again going all out 100 kilometers per hour? 336 00:17:24,770 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: It seems like trying to strike the balance in between 337 00:17:27,770 --> 00:17:31,790 Speaker 1: appears to be very, very challenging with the benefit of hindsight. 338 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,349 Speaker 1: What else do you think people can take note of 339 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: when it comes to approaching work? Do they have to 340 00:17:37,689 --> 00:17:41,409 Speaker 1: really overcompensate or uncompensate? Is there a middle ground or 341 00:17:41,420 --> 00:17:43,109 Speaker 1: is there something else that is missing here? 342 00:17:43,630 --> 00:17:48,020 Speaker 2: So what I learned is that there isn't a universal formula, 343 00:17:48,239 --> 00:17:51,770 Speaker 2: we have to find our own balance. Maybe it's not 344 00:17:51,780 --> 00:17:55,550 Speaker 2: even in terms of hours spent, it's probably in terms 345 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,930 Speaker 2: of mind share. How much mind share do you devote 346 00:17:58,939 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 2: to your professional life? How much mind share do you 347 00:18:02,010 --> 00:18:04,770 Speaker 2: devote to your family? And how much mind share do 348 00:18:04,780 --> 00:18:07,250 Speaker 2: you devote to yourself? So, a lot of 349 00:18:07,326 --> 00:18:10,505 Speaker 2: times people think if I don't work, then I have 350 00:18:10,515 --> 00:18:12,625 Speaker 2: a chance to live my life. That's the origin of 351 00:18:12,635 --> 00:18:16,426 Speaker 2: the work life balance. But I don't think it's that simple. 352 00:18:16,676 --> 00:18:19,416 Speaker 2: The hours that you spend not working. What do you 353 00:18:19,426 --> 00:18:23,225 Speaker 2: really do? Do you spend all the time watching Netflix? 354 00:18:23,515 --> 00:18:27,225 Speaker 2: Do you spend the time, for example, exercising or investing 355 00:18:27,234 --> 00:18:29,796 Speaker 2: in your health or do you spend all your time 356 00:18:29,806 --> 00:18:30,946 Speaker 2: with your family? I said, 357 00:18:31,021 --> 00:18:33,391 Speaker 2: expect that if we look at our lives, certainly my 358 00:18:33,401 --> 00:18:37,041 Speaker 2: own life. When I'm not working, sometimes I'm not doing 359 00:18:37,052 --> 00:18:39,962 Speaker 2: anything and I'm not doing anything, not in a healthy way, 360 00:18:39,972 --> 00:18:43,531 Speaker 2: but I'm just not doing anything. So, oddly enough, the 361 00:18:43,541 --> 00:18:47,222 Speaker 2: time I spent at work is probably the most constructive 362 00:18:47,232 --> 00:18:50,442 Speaker 2: and productive part of my life. And you're right, Christina, 363 00:18:50,452 --> 00:18:53,561 Speaker 2: when you say having cancer sort of clarifies because it 364 00:18:53,571 --> 00:18:54,601 Speaker 2: makes me think. OK, 365 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,770 Speaker 2: let's say I die tomorrow. And this used to be 366 00:18:57,780 --> 00:19:00,459 Speaker 2: a frivolous sort of thought experiment. Let's say I die tomorrow. 367 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 2: But now it's becoming not a thought experiment anymore. It 368 00:19:04,290 --> 00:19:07,819 Speaker 2: could be a bit more real. Let's say I die soon. 369 00:19:08,349 --> 00:19:10,510 Speaker 2: Am I going to treasure all the time I spend 370 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,140 Speaker 2: watching Netflix to an extent. 371 00:19:13,410 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 2: Maybe all the time is spent playing computer games or eating. But, 372 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,829 Speaker 2: you know, and I know that's not going to matter. Right. 373 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,698 Speaker 2: We're going to think about our relationships, the time we 374 00:19:23,709 --> 00:19:26,899 Speaker 2: spend with our loved ones, the time we spent helping 375 00:19:26,910 --> 00:19:30,189 Speaker 2: people achieving something and leaving something behind. 376 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,290 Speaker 2: But I think everyone has a chance to make good 377 00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:36,859 Speaker 2: relationships and every relationship is a monument 378 00:19:37,270 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 2: to your life. And it's something that enriches the people 379 00:19:41,650 --> 00:19:45,589 Speaker 2: that you come in contact with. So if you don't 380 00:19:45,599 --> 00:19:48,329 Speaker 2: want to spend time working, I can totally understand it. 381 00:19:48,339 --> 00:19:51,099 Speaker 2: Don't think of it in a negative sense of I'm 382 00:19:51,109 --> 00:19:53,890 Speaker 2: not working. Think of it in a positive sense of 383 00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:57,369 Speaker 2: I'm doing XY and Z. So 384 00:19:57,380 --> 00:20:00,770 Speaker 1: it boils down to really your attitude to work. It's 385 00:20:00,780 --> 00:20:01,569 Speaker 1: ok 386 00:20:02,140 --> 00:20:05,369 Speaker 1: to love work and work to be the main thing 387 00:20:05,380 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: in your life. It's ok. People shouldn't cancel you for that. Right. 388 00:20:09,180 --> 00:20:12,900 Speaker 1: It's just that especially when I see young lawyers online. Wow, 389 00:20:12,910 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: they really glorify this fact that they have gone on 390 00:20:16,369 --> 00:20:19,770 Speaker 1: three hours of sleep and they are burning the midnight oil. 391 00:20:19,780 --> 00:20:20,129 Speaker 1: So 392 00:20:20,449 --> 00:20:24,389 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering if we are glorifying work without really 393 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,250 Speaker 1: considering the effects it has on people. Your wife has 394 00:20:28,260 --> 00:20:31,369 Speaker 1: she ever complained about you not paying attention to her 395 00:20:31,380 --> 00:20:33,270 Speaker 1: because you've been so busy. 396 00:20:33,599 --> 00:20:36,469 Speaker 2: So that's a great point. Christina, we start with the 397 00:20:36,479 --> 00:20:39,889 Speaker 2: young lawyers first. And generally young people saying I worked 398 00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:43,829 Speaker 2: very hard. I hardly slept and I was all out 399 00:20:43,839 --> 00:20:47,709 Speaker 2: doing something. My response is we must let young people 400 00:20:47,719 --> 00:20:48,629 Speaker 2: be young. 401 00:20:49,020 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 2: This is their first taste out in the world of 402 00:20:52,010 --> 00:20:56,459 Speaker 2: doing something that matters. It's no more just taking exams 403 00:20:56,469 --> 00:20:58,839 Speaker 2: and getting a high mark and then moving on to 404 00:20:58,849 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 2: the next stage, that's all theoretical. Right? When you get 405 00:21:01,689 --> 00:21:04,030 Speaker 2: into the working world, you're dealing with human beings, you're 406 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,938 Speaker 2: dealing with consequences. And suddenly if you sleep too much, 407 00:21:08,969 --> 00:21:11,709 Speaker 2: if you don't do your job, someone else will suffer, 408 00:21:12,285 --> 00:21:16,185 Speaker 2: then you discover this fire inside that says, ok, now 409 00:21:16,194 --> 00:21:21,665 Speaker 2: everything matters, all hands on deck work and push and 410 00:21:21,675 --> 00:21:24,385 Speaker 2: be part of a team and have a united goal 411 00:21:24,395 --> 00:21:27,425 Speaker 2: and struggle. And when you're young, it feels great and 412 00:21:27,435 --> 00:21:29,194 Speaker 2: awful at the same time, which is why you want 413 00:21:29,204 --> 00:21:32,584 Speaker 2: to talk about it and wants to your question, Chris, 414 00:21:33,275 --> 00:21:35,775 Speaker 2: does my wife say, oh, you're spending too much time 415 00:21:35,785 --> 00:21:37,224 Speaker 2: in your work? You're not responding to me. 416 00:21:37,650 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 2: Yes. Yes, I guess so. And I have to be 417 00:21:41,130 --> 00:21:45,169 Speaker 2: sensitive to that and I have to work hard on 418 00:21:45,180 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 2: that as well, right? And that's a balance that we 419 00:21:48,770 --> 00:21:49,438 Speaker 2: all have to 420 00:21:49,449 --> 00:21:52,889 Speaker 1: look because we're not just one person, right? You are 421 00:21:52,900 --> 00:21:56,099 Speaker 1: a lawyer, president of the law, but also husband, right? 422 00:21:56,109 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: So you kind of have to confront your different identities, 423 00:22:00,890 --> 00:22:04,099 Speaker 2: not just have to, but want to, I want 424 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,020 Speaker 2: to spend more time with my wife. I want to 425 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,079 Speaker 2: spend more time writing, I want to spend more time 426 00:22:10,089 --> 00:22:13,219 Speaker 2: to meet other lawyers and to advocate for them in 427 00:22:13,229 --> 00:22:15,698 Speaker 2: the public sphere. And I want to spend more time 428 00:22:15,709 --> 00:22:19,469 Speaker 2: fighting my cases because I believe that my cases are 429 00:22:19,479 --> 00:22:23,419 Speaker 2: very important, right? So it's like you're at a buffet 430 00:22:23,550 --> 00:22:26,349 Speaker 2: and you want to eat this starter and you want 431 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 2: to eat that, you still have to save time for dessert. 432 00:22:29,369 --> 00:22:30,900 Speaker 2: You know that feeling Cristina, yes, 433 00:22:30,979 --> 00:22:31,959 Speaker 1: of course. I always say 434 00:22:33,430 --> 00:22:36,020 Speaker 2: yes. So nobody says to you at the buffet, you 435 00:22:36,030 --> 00:22:38,209 Speaker 2: have to eat the dessert and then you say I 436 00:22:38,229 --> 00:22:40,540 Speaker 2: want to drag, I have to force myself to eat this. 437 00:22:40,550 --> 00:22:43,349 Speaker 2: It's not like that. It's like, oh, I still want 438 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,060 Speaker 2: to look at that cake, look at that. I want 439 00:22:47,069 --> 00:22:49,780 Speaker 2: an all and this is the feeling I have and 440 00:22:49,790 --> 00:22:51,729 Speaker 2: I believe this is the feeling many of us have. 441 00:22:51,739 --> 00:22:54,459 Speaker 2: When we look at the buffet of life, we want 442 00:22:54,469 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 2: this dish, we want that dish. No one's actually on 443 00:22:57,010 --> 00:22:57,589 Speaker 2: our back. 444 00:23:03,260 --> 00:23:06,239 Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Julie Yu and I'm the host 445 00:23:06,250 --> 00:23:10,198 Speaker 1: of the new season of the climate Conversations from chefs 446 00:23:10,209 --> 00:23:13,599 Speaker 1: to scientists. Join me as we get personal with the 447 00:23:13,609 --> 00:23:17,839 Speaker 1: people driving change in sustainability. Look out for our episodes, 448 00:23:17,849 --> 00:23:19,699 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. 449 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,479 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that a lot of 450 00:23:29,489 --> 00:23:32,198 Speaker 1: especially young lawyers, I am seeing a lot more on 451 00:23:32,209 --> 00:23:34,310 Speaker 1: linkedin perhaps taking a leave from what you have been 452 00:23:34,319 --> 00:23:37,659 Speaker 1: doing more recently is as what Christina mentioned about the 453 00:23:37,849 --> 00:23:39,839 Speaker 1: kind of hustle culture that they go through. We all 454 00:23:39,849 --> 00:23:42,219 Speaker 1: know for a fact that the attrition rate within the 455 00:23:42,229 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: legal profession is very high. In fact, all high intensity 456 00:23:44,810 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: job is very high as a president of law society 457 00:23:48,050 --> 00:23:51,079 Speaker 1: and also being in a leadership position for so long. 458 00:23:51,089 --> 00:23:53,300 Speaker 1: Do you think there are things that leaders can do? 459 00:23:53,729 --> 00:23:56,260 Speaker 1: Like going back to your buffet example? How can we 460 00:23:56,270 --> 00:23:58,290 Speaker 1: play a part to tell them? I think too much 461 00:23:58,300 --> 00:24:00,079 Speaker 1: already the lobster is going to fall off the plate, 462 00:24:00,099 --> 00:24:03,020 Speaker 1: things are gonna happen. Accident is going to happen. What 463 00:24:03,030 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: are some of the advice we have for the young 464 00:24:04,770 --> 00:24:08,030 Speaker 1: people out there to better manage their buffet plate? 465 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,430 Speaker 2: Oh, that's a great point. So the first thing that 466 00:24:12,439 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 2: everyone has to know is that this is their personal buffet. 467 00:24:16,859 --> 00:24:20,410 Speaker 2: So they have to stop listening to other people's advice. 468 00:24:20,420 --> 00:24:23,030 Speaker 2: That's the first thing. The second. Look at your buffet, 469 00:24:23,050 --> 00:24:27,149 Speaker 2: look at your options and if you need to taste something, 470 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:28,109 Speaker 2: then taste something. 471 00:24:28,310 --> 00:24:30,609 Speaker 2: If you work hard, if you feel that you got 472 00:24:30,619 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 2: to switch, then you have to switch right now. Young 473 00:24:33,810 --> 00:24:37,530 Speaker 2: people have so many opportunities, especially young lawyers. But all 474 00:24:37,540 --> 00:24:40,609 Speaker 2: young people, we've reached a stage in Singaporean society where 475 00:24:40,619 --> 00:24:44,290 Speaker 2: young people are very qualified, they are well spoken, they 476 00:24:44,300 --> 00:24:48,469 Speaker 2: are well aware of the world and So they will choose. 477 00:24:48,530 --> 00:24:51,300 Speaker 2: We all people boomers like to compare 478 00:24:51,510 --> 00:24:54,188 Speaker 2: any generation to their own generation and say, look in 479 00:24:54,199 --> 00:24:57,619 Speaker 2: my time, I stayed in the same company for 40 480 00:24:57,630 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 2: years and blah, blah, blah, blah, dude, you stayed in 481 00:25:00,770 --> 00:25:04,489 Speaker 2: the same company for 40 years because you had no options. 482 00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:09,169 Speaker 2: So don't make a virtue out of necessity. Appreciate that 483 00:25:09,180 --> 00:25:12,619 Speaker 2: young people today. They are a lot smarter, they are 484 00:25:12,630 --> 00:25:14,569 Speaker 2: a lot more well aware and the world is different. 485 00:25:15,290 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 2: So if people stay in the same company for four years, 486 00:25:18,050 --> 00:25:21,339 Speaker 2: not 40 years, that's because they are tasting their buffet. 487 00:25:21,489 --> 00:25:23,729 Speaker 2: So you eat your plate and let other people eat 488 00:25:23,739 --> 00:25:24,869 Speaker 2: their plate, right? 489 00:25:25,209 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: OK. We want to get your views a little bit 490 00:25:27,010 --> 00:25:29,909 Speaker 1: about leadership. If I'm not wrong, you will actually vice 491 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:31,910 Speaker 1: president of the law of for some time. 492 00:25:32,369 --> 00:25:35,859 Speaker 1: So what changes when you are now right at the top? 493 00:25:35,869 --> 00:25:39,389 Speaker 1: What happens to how people treat you? Is there a difference? 494 00:25:39,599 --> 00:25:42,909 Speaker 2: So why I learned is that there are few kinds 495 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:48,239 Speaker 2: of leaders, there is the leader that leads by example, 496 00:25:48,270 --> 00:25:49,310 Speaker 2: let's say in a football 497 00:25:49,410 --> 00:25:52,829 Speaker 2: team where he's the best footballer and the way he plays, 498 00:25:52,839 --> 00:25:56,010 Speaker 2: inspires all his teammates to follow suit. He doesn't have 499 00:25:56,020 --> 00:25:59,109 Speaker 2: to say things, he just puts in a lot of 500 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,169 Speaker 2: effort and by his example, inspires others. Then there's the 501 00:26:03,180 --> 00:26:06,250 Speaker 2: second kind of leader, which is the administrator. 502 00:26:06,630 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 2: So that person stands by the sidelines is not on 503 00:26:09,770 --> 00:26:13,810 Speaker 2: the field but is a great manager says you go here, 504 00:26:13,819 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 2: now you go there. OK? And when this happens, you 505 00:26:16,170 --> 00:26:19,010 Speaker 2: all go this way and that's a leader, that's an administrator, 506 00:26:19,020 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 2: very important type of leader. And then there's another kind 507 00:26:22,050 --> 00:26:27,409 Speaker 2: of leader, the leader that inspires the leader that says, ok, guys, 508 00:26:27,420 --> 00:26:30,208 Speaker 2: we're down by one goal. But you know what, we've 509 00:26:30,219 --> 00:26:33,410 Speaker 2: won this before, against this team, we can do it, 510 00:26:33,420 --> 00:26:35,448 Speaker 2: go out and then we win 511 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,349 Speaker 2: and that's a leader that inspires. I'm not the first 512 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,900 Speaker 2: two kinds of leaders. I'm terrible at administrating, but I 513 00:26:43,910 --> 00:26:48,780 Speaker 2: care about people and I like to make people remember 514 00:26:48,989 --> 00:26:52,260 Speaker 2: why we're all here on this earth in this society. 515 00:26:52,719 --> 00:26:56,829 Speaker 2: When I became president, I said I want lawyers to 516 00:26:56,839 --> 00:27:02,030 Speaker 2: be social influences, not to sell makeup or handbags, but 517 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,709 Speaker 2: to sell the law to help society understand why law 518 00:27:06,719 --> 00:27:09,790 Speaker 2: is important where every part of our life is touched 519 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:10,429 Speaker 2: by the law 520 00:27:10,829 --> 00:27:13,170 Speaker 2: and what it is that lawyers do. So I began 521 00:27:13,180 --> 00:27:17,969 Speaker 2: writing about legal issues like 377 a like having cats 522 00:27:17,979 --> 00:27:21,729 Speaker 2: in HDB flats to show that law touches all of us. 523 00:27:21,900 --> 00:27:24,540 Speaker 2: And then I began writing about lawyers who do pro 524 00:27:24,550 --> 00:27:29,010 Speaker 2: bono work. That means volunteer work for people who are needy, 525 00:27:29,020 --> 00:27:32,339 Speaker 2: who can't afford lawyers. And I tell their stories to 526 00:27:32,349 --> 00:27:35,290 Speaker 2: show how injustice is overturned, 527 00:27:35,530 --> 00:27:39,948 Speaker 2: how lives are changed by lawyers who are selfless. That's 528 00:27:39,959 --> 00:27:43,319 Speaker 2: my main role to be the lawyer who is an influencer. 529 00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: Are you seeing the kind of effect that you're driving 530 00:27:45,369 --> 00:27:49,510 Speaker 2: towards? I love it. I'm seeing that effect Adrian and 531 00:27:49,619 --> 00:27:52,099 Speaker 2: I'm not going to take any credit for it. I'm 532 00:27:52,109 --> 00:27:52,630 Speaker 2: just one 533 00:27:52,824 --> 00:27:57,045 Speaker 2: of the large crowd of lawyers who are now finding 534 00:27:57,055 --> 00:28:02,805 Speaker 2: their voice in Singapore and coming forward to educate, to 535 00:28:02,814 --> 00:28:08,185 Speaker 2: question and to discuss. So, if we have important social issues, 536 00:28:08,194 --> 00:28:11,375 Speaker 2: there is always a legal dimension. We must have a 537 00:28:11,385 --> 00:28:12,405 Speaker 2: legal perspective. 538 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,899 Speaker 1: Coming back a little bit to leadership, you must have 539 00:28:15,910 --> 00:28:20,510 Speaker 1: worked under several leaders. Whenever we look at Adam Grant 540 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: or Ray Dalio, you get a petite tweet about what 541 00:28:23,810 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: makes a good leader like put people first be open, 542 00:28:26,569 --> 00:28:29,849 Speaker 1: be present, et cetera. My thinking is that we have 543 00:28:29,859 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 1: to be realistic, not everybody is perfect. Some are OK. 544 00:28:33,209 --> 00:28:36,968 Speaker 1: Some leaders are good, maybe not great, good enough. What 545 00:28:36,979 --> 00:28:39,219 Speaker 1: did you learn from the leaders you worked for? 546 00:28:39,819 --> 00:28:44,540 Speaker 2: Yes, that's a question that I asked myself even today. 547 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,569 Speaker 2: I think the first thing a leader has to do 548 00:28:46,579 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 2: is to be authentic. That means the leader has to 549 00:28:50,290 --> 00:28:54,810 Speaker 2: know himself or herself. What the personality is. There are 550 00:28:54,819 --> 00:28:58,239 Speaker 2: many leaders who fake it who try and copy other people. 551 00:28:58,329 --> 00:29:01,530 Speaker 2: I had a very strong leader. He was very tough, 552 00:29:01,540 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 2: he was very smart, 553 00:29:02,844 --> 00:29:05,795 Speaker 2: he was brilliant in the way he talked. Everybody in 554 00:29:05,805 --> 00:29:09,005 Speaker 2: his team wanted to be like him. So they started 555 00:29:09,015 --> 00:29:12,224 Speaker 2: being very fierce, trying to talk like him. Trying to 556 00:29:12,234 --> 00:29:15,765 Speaker 2: imitate his voice, his mannerisms, that's not how it's gonna 557 00:29:15,775 --> 00:29:20,295 Speaker 2: work because you're not authentic to yourself. The leader was 558 00:29:20,305 --> 00:29:23,594 Speaker 2: being himself and what you have to do is not 559 00:29:23,604 --> 00:29:25,785 Speaker 2: imitate or copy that person, 560 00:29:26,069 --> 00:29:29,750 Speaker 2: but learn that that person is successful because that person 561 00:29:29,910 --> 00:29:33,540 Speaker 2: has come to terms with his strengths and weaknesses. So 562 00:29:33,550 --> 00:29:36,530 Speaker 2: as a leader, first thing I would say is you've 563 00:29:36,540 --> 00:29:38,729 Speaker 2: come to terms with your own strengths and weaknesses. 564 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:40,930 Speaker 2: And the second thing is you then have to look 565 00:29:40,939 --> 00:29:45,300 Speaker 2: at your team and understand their strengths and weaknesses. Everyone 566 00:29:45,310 --> 00:29:47,780 Speaker 2: tells you all the time when they talk to you 567 00:29:47,790 --> 00:29:50,819 Speaker 2: how they want to be controlled. What does that mean? 568 00:29:50,979 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 2: When you talk to somebody, that person tells you what's 569 00:29:54,569 --> 00:29:58,579 Speaker 2: important to him and that person tells you what he 570 00:29:58,589 --> 00:30:02,550 Speaker 2: wants from you. If only you would listen and if 571 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:03,219 Speaker 2: you listen, 572 00:30:03,670 --> 00:30:07,089 Speaker 2: you can take that information and you can use it 573 00:30:07,099 --> 00:30:10,550 Speaker 2: for the benefit of relationship. That's what a leader has 574 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,849 Speaker 2: to do. Has to listen. So good 575 00:30:12,859 --> 00:30:15,569 Speaker 1: communication basically and be open and honest. 576 00:30:15,849 --> 00:30:20,099 Speaker 2: Ah, Christina, I'm going to say something controversial. Don't be 577 00:30:20,109 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: open and honest. Yes. What do not, do not, do, not, 578 00:30:24,530 --> 00:30:28,459 Speaker 2: do not be sensitive. Um, the thing about humans is 579 00:30:28,469 --> 00:30:30,310 Speaker 2: that we can't handle the truth 580 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,089 Speaker 2: if we're dealing with our strengths and people tell us 581 00:30:33,099 --> 00:30:34,810 Speaker 2: you are so good in this. You're so good in that. 582 00:30:34,959 --> 00:30:37,910 Speaker 2: I love to hear it. So nice. Please tell me more. 583 00:30:38,199 --> 00:30:41,790 Speaker 2: But if people tell me my weaknesses in a blunt 584 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,989 Speaker 2: and unvarnished way, in an honest way, you know, I'm 585 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,630 Speaker 2: going to fight back, I'm going to be very resistant. 586 00:30:47,930 --> 00:30:50,510 Speaker 2: And what I learned being a leader is that I 587 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,420 Speaker 2: can't just go around telling people, hey, you guys are 588 00:30:53,430 --> 00:30:56,189 Speaker 2: not doing this. Well, hey, you know what your problem is, 589 00:30:56,349 --> 00:30:56,989 Speaker 2: they will never 590 00:30:57,069 --> 00:30:59,020 Speaker 2: listen to me. Of course, you may say, you know, 591 00:30:59,030 --> 00:31:01,489 Speaker 2: your tone is not nice. Maybe if you have a 592 00:31:01,500 --> 00:31:05,260 Speaker 2: sweet tone, they listen to you. Not really, no human 593 00:31:05,270 --> 00:31:08,319 Speaker 2: beings are not that dumb. They can see through my 594 00:31:08,329 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 2: packaging if I tell people something unpleasant about themselves. If 595 00:31:12,810 --> 00:31:16,849 Speaker 2: I'm honest, then they will fight back. So a leader 596 00:31:16,859 --> 00:31:22,140 Speaker 2: has to train and change his team without hurting their feelings. 597 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:23,689 Speaker 2: And that's the toughest part. 598 00:31:23,930 --> 00:31:26,390 Speaker 2: So you got to know yourself, you got to know 599 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 2: your team and you got to mold them and change 600 00:31:30,290 --> 00:31:33,109 Speaker 2: them without hurting their feelings 601 00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:35,510 Speaker 1: with kindness, not with cruelty. 602 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,359 Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. 603 00:31:37,719 --> 00:31:40,729 Speaker 1: Ok. Before we let you go today, we would like 604 00:31:40,739 --> 00:31:44,670 Speaker 1: to anoint you king of Singapore. What are some of 605 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,390 Speaker 1: the work related degrees? Will you pass today? 606 00:31:47,689 --> 00:31:51,530 Speaker 2: Well, the first thing is that we should have four 607 00:31:51,540 --> 00:31:55,150 Speaker 2: day week. So when I started working, we worked on 608 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,030 Speaker 2: Saturdays as well. And sometimes I wonder why do we 609 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,900 Speaker 2: have a seven day week? Why do we have that 610 00:32:01,910 --> 00:32:03,430 Speaker 2: magic number? There's no reason 611 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,229 Speaker 2: I think people like to work whenever they work and 612 00:32:06,239 --> 00:32:08,959 Speaker 2: they should stop after a while, a four day work week. 613 00:32:08,969 --> 00:32:11,890 Speaker 2: That would be number one. Number two is if people 614 00:32:11,900 --> 00:32:14,229 Speaker 2: are sick, they should just call in sick. They don't 615 00:32:14,239 --> 00:32:17,930 Speaker 2: need an MC. I know it's weird. We trust our 616 00:32:17,939 --> 00:32:21,219 Speaker 2: employees to operate very expensive equipment to 617 00:32:21,314 --> 00:32:24,334 Speaker 2: make tough decisions. But when they call in sick, we say, 618 00:32:24,344 --> 00:32:27,314 Speaker 2: can you go to the clinic downstairs and get an MC? 619 00:32:27,324 --> 00:32:31,775 Speaker 2: Come on, this is the 21st century. We have to 620 00:32:31,785 --> 00:32:34,935 Speaker 2: start trusting people more. Those are the two key decrees 621 00:32:34,944 --> 00:32:38,265 Speaker 2: and of course cats to be allowed in HDB flats. Ok. 622 00:32:38,334 --> 00:32:38,685 Speaker 1: Yes, 623 00:32:39,910 --> 00:32:41,849 Speaker 1: I'm assuming you are a cat owner. 624 00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:44,949 Speaker 2: No, I don't have a cat. I just feel it's 625 00:32:44,959 --> 00:32:48,260 Speaker 2: a very unfair law. It irks me that dogs are 626 00:32:48,270 --> 00:32:51,369 Speaker 2: allowed in HDB flats but not cats. There's a whole 627 00:32:51,380 --> 00:32:52,770 Speaker 2: program I can do on why 628 00:32:53,030 --> 00:32:58,790 Speaker 2: that's racially problematic and culturally problematic. Not to mention the 629 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 2: similarities between that and 377 A. Oh 630 00:33:01,719 --> 00:33:05,660 Speaker 1: my God. That sounds so fun. Discrimination. Part two of 631 00:33:05,670 --> 00:33:08,300 Speaker 1: our conversation with you is coming very soon. 632 00:33:10,910 --> 00:33:12,140 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 633 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,930 Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed our chats with the ever amazing 634 00:33:17,939 --> 00:33:21,849 Speaker 1: Adrian Tan, writer, lawyer, leader, husband, and true king of 635 00:33:21,859 --> 00:33:24,849 Speaker 1: people's hearts. If this is your first episode of work, it, 636 00:33:24,859 --> 00:33:27,010 Speaker 1: we would like to suggest to you to check out 637 00:33:27,020 --> 00:33:30,699 Speaker 1: our previous episodes on toxic colleagues, the tension around hybrid 638 00:33:30,709 --> 00:33:34,839 Speaker 1: working and tackling burnout. The team behind this podcast comprises 639 00:33:34,849 --> 00:33:38,079 Speaker 1: of the hard working crew of Joan Chan, Jacqueline Chan 640 00:33:38,089 --> 00:33:41,449 Speaker 1: and Daniel Lee. I'm Christina Robert and I'm Adrian Tan. The.