WEBVTT - Why is it so hard to recycle? | EP 15

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<v Speaker 1>this is a C. N. A.

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<v Speaker 2>Podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's admit it when you finish a canned or bottled drink,

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<v Speaker 1>do you toss it in the special recycle bin or

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<v Speaker 1>just throw it into the regular trash. I try my

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<v Speaker 1>best to recycle and at home my husband is a

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<v Speaker 1>recycling nut, so I'm constantly under watch over what I

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<v Speaker 1>throw away. But it's not always easy and I think

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<v Speaker 1>you'll agree with me that forming any new habit is

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<v Speaker 1>tough and especially when it comes to recycling, there can

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<v Speaker 1>be a big gap between knowing and doing

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<v Speaker 1>the government has been trying to close this gap. The N. E. A.

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<v Speaker 1>Has just proposed a scheme to get people to pay

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<v Speaker 1>10 to 20 cents more for prepackaged plastic or metal beverages.

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<v Speaker 1>You can get this deposit back if you return to

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<v Speaker 1>cans and bottles at designated points.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a start. But the question is whether this will

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<v Speaker 1>change anything in our attitudes and behaviors when it comes

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<v Speaker 1>to recycling

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<v Speaker 1>to help us understand how we can rethink recycling is

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<v Speaker 1>research fellow and head of the Urban Psychology lab of

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<v Speaker 1>the lee kuan New Center for innovative cities at the

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<v Speaker 1>Singapore University of Technology and Design. Mr Samuel Cheung

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<v Speaker 1>SAm, welcome to the climate conversations. Great to see you.

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<v Speaker 2>It's great to see you too julie, thank you for

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<v Speaker 2>having me On.

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<v Speaker 1>First off, many of us know about the benefits of

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<v Speaker 1>recycling but much like exercising or eating healthily. We often

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<v Speaker 1>recycle less than we should. What are some of the

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<v Speaker 1>common barriers?

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<v Speaker 2>I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's not an easy answer, straightforward answer to your question,

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<v Speaker 2>it's quite complex, it's not just about the people, right?

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<v Speaker 2>It's also about the environment. So if we look at

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<v Speaker 2>the recent OcBc climate index clearly show that people have

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<v Speaker 2>the awareness, they have the understanding of the issue, they

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<v Speaker 2>know that things need to be done.

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<v Speaker 2>However, we see that there is a lack of disconnect

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of what they're actually doing in their daily lives.

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<v Speaker 2>So among people who think that they need to do

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<v Speaker 2>more for the environment are probably also the people who

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<v Speaker 2>are traveling more, flying accumulating this carbon footprint,

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<v Speaker 2>so many of us would probably know that we need

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<v Speaker 2>to do certain things, especially in terms of recycling, but

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<v Speaker 2>why are we not doing it? One part of it

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<v Speaker 2>is because it's inconvenient, another part of it could be

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<v Speaker 2>just just put it in plain terms your lazy, if

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<v Speaker 2>the recycling bin is further than the trash bin, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>we'll put it in the trash bin. And so what

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<v Speaker 2>we have done or we have seen in Singapore, especially

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<v Speaker 2>in the public neighborhoods, right? We've seen the new developments

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<v Speaker 2>having

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<v Speaker 2>a separate shoot for the recyclables as opposed to the trash.

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<v Speaker 2>So it should theoretically make it easier for people to recycle. Right?

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<v Speaker 2>But with the introduction of that is recycling rate really

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<v Speaker 2>going to increase as a psychologist over here and I

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<v Speaker 2>would say probably not, even though there are more bins today,

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<v Speaker 2>there's more awareness but recycling rate?

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<v Speaker 2>It's not up.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, just to follow up on that, So is it

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<v Speaker 1>safe to say that if it's not as easy as

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<v Speaker 1>simply throwing off down the chute, people won't recycle things properly.

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<v Speaker 2>I think there needs to be a level of investment

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<v Speaker 2>from the people. For example, Taiwan is one example that

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<v Speaker 2>we always look at, they throw their trash in transparent

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<v Speaker 2>trash bags, which means that you are able to see

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<v Speaker 2>the content of the back

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<v Speaker 2>and I recall when I was there, if you have

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<v Speaker 2>recyclables and non recyclable bag, they wouldn't collect the trash

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<v Speaker 2>and you got to keep the trash until the next

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<v Speaker 2>election cycle, you have to re sort the trash because

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't do it religiously over there.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's not a convenient move, but it's something that

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<v Speaker 2>people put in effort over time, it then becomes a habit,

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<v Speaker 2>it becomes subconscious, but in Singapore it might be slightly

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<v Speaker 2>too easy. You just have this blue bin and everything

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<v Speaker 2>goes inside the bin including trash.

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<v Speaker 1>Does that mean that our decisions and behaviors in relation

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<v Speaker 1>to recycling or sustainability can be easily swayed if we

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<v Speaker 1>know some of these mental or psychological levers and triggers.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and that's what a lot of our work is about.

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<v Speaker 2>Looking at, identifying levers of change in which we can

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<v Speaker 2>then do something small, seemingly small, but actually lead to

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<v Speaker 2>a cascading effect

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<v Speaker 2>and not only recycling, but into other areas of life

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<v Speaker 2>to trigger climate action. So one way in which we

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<v Speaker 2>are looking at it, it's actually getting people to think

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<v Speaker 2>more about the future. So this is what we call

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<v Speaker 2>the future thinking. So if people are thinking only about

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<v Speaker 2>the present or even thinking about, I just need to

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<v Speaker 2>get rid of this cup fast, it doesn't matter how

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<v Speaker 2>I get rid of it.

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<v Speaker 2>As opposed to if someone is thinking about the future

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<v Speaker 2>in my actions today will impact generations to come, it

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<v Speaker 2>will impact the future or the security of the earth.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're thinking in that terms, then probably holding the

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<v Speaker 2>cup for another five minutes while you look for recycling

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<v Speaker 2>bin would be a lot more tolerable. As opposed to

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<v Speaker 2>just throwing it into the nearest bin.

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<v Speaker 1>Speaking of triggering action. One way is using interventions to

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<v Speaker 1>nudge residents or people to adopt positive waste recycling behaviors

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<v Speaker 1>and the N. E. A recently announced a plan to

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<v Speaker 1>have consumers pay 10 to 20 cents more for drinking

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<v Speaker 1>containers and that they must return for a refund of

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<v Speaker 1>that deposit. What's your assessment of this move?

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<v Speaker 1>Would it help much to improve the recycling rate? I

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<v Speaker 2>Think the short reply would be in Singapore. We have

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<v Speaker 2>a culture of being very compliant once it comes to

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<v Speaker 2>having additional terrorists added to our daily behaviors or daily decisions.

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<v Speaker 2>So probably in that expect it will work. It will

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<v Speaker 2>trigger people to return the bottles. Let's say if it's

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<v Speaker 2>10 cents if you have 10 bottles is a dollar.

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<v Speaker 2>If you have 20 bottles from like a week,

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<v Speaker 2>that's $2 that's a nice sum of money to actually

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<v Speaker 2>motivate people to do the recycling. But I think the

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<v Speaker 2>devil lies in the detail and the child this is executed.

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<v Speaker 2>Where are you going to put all these up cycling machines?

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<v Speaker 2>Are they going to be in the supermarkets? Are they

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<v Speaker 2>going to be in every community center? Are they going

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<v Speaker 2>to be in shopping malls or even MRT stations where

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<v Speaker 2>people are constantly there? Or should you have one in

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<v Speaker 2>every neighborhood where people can congregate?

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<v Speaker 2>But it's all this worth it. I'm not too sure

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<v Speaker 2>because at least from my perspective it's a great way

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<v Speaker 2>to start, but at the same time you don't want

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<v Speaker 2>people to continue on this behavior just because of this

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<v Speaker 2>tencent 20 cent charge that they can get back in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of value, but you ultimately want is for this

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<v Speaker 2>behavior to become part and parcel of their life to

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<v Speaker 2>become the new social norm rather than just getting people

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<v Speaker 2>to recycle for money.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, my name is Sarah Khaldi and I'm the host

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<v Speaker 1>of a new podcast called Money talks. Yes, we will

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<v Speaker 1>be talking about money, but more than that, we'll also

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<v Speaker 1>be talking about life personal choices, lucky breaks and how

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<v Speaker 1>money is the thread running through it all. So look

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<v Speaker 1>out for our episodes wherever you get your podcasts,

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<v Speaker 1>what currently recycling is done on a voluntary basis. Should

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<v Speaker 1>we consider something a bit more hard hitting like stern enforcement,

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<v Speaker 1>such as surveillance cameras near the bins or guards that

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<v Speaker 1>oversee whether people are recycling properly or even in position

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<v Speaker 1>of hefty fines because coming from south Korea, such measures

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<v Speaker 1>were quite effective.

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<v Speaker 2>I think government agencies here also trying to find the

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<v Speaker 2>right

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<v Speaker 2>balance being perceived as too hard handed. Actually one of

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<v Speaker 2>our challenges that we live in a very high density city,

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<v Speaker 2>which means for example, and household recycling. How do we

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<v Speaker 2>actually police it? Are we going to install sensors out

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<v Speaker 2>of everyone's door because we share a common shoot? Right,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's very difficult for us to then assess who

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<v Speaker 2>is not recycling and to go after the person or

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<v Speaker 2>the household. So I think that there is some challenge

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<v Speaker 2>to it.

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<v Speaker 2>And so at least from a psychological perspective, I would

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<v Speaker 2>rather change people's thinking to change their behavior and to

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<v Speaker 2>make it sustainable rather than going after technological solutions or

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<v Speaker 2>going after monetary penalties. These are means to an end,

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<v Speaker 2>but it might not lead to a system wide or

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<v Speaker 2>societal wide change.

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<v Speaker 2>So let's see, what about the plastic bag charge for example,

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<v Speaker 2>after a while, 10 cents isn't painful anymore. Are you

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<v Speaker 2>going to keep increasing it? 20 cents, 30 cents, 40 cents,

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<v Speaker 2>which is what is happening in the UK, right? They've

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<v Speaker 2>got to revise the price, but at one point in

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<v Speaker 2>time people are going to be numb on the impact.

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<v Speaker 2>So you got to do more or even more to

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<v Speaker 2>sustain the level of change and what about that 10%

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<v Speaker 2>or 15% of

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<v Speaker 2>or just do not do it?

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<v Speaker 1>What can effectively motivate people more? Is it more incentives

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<v Speaker 1>and rewards or penalties and punishment stick or carrot?

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe let's find it in between a carrot that is

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<v Speaker 2>also stick. Maybe we could use peer pressure, social pressure.

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<v Speaker 2>So what if, if I'm staying next to usually and

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<v Speaker 2>I see you putting a can into the trash, but

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<v Speaker 2>if I go after you and I say, hold on,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, what are you doing? You probably should be

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<v Speaker 2>putting it in the blue bed, right? That, that probably

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<v Speaker 2>works a lot better and that is kind of the

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<v Speaker 2>policing or also the penalty, but you don't incur like

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<v Speaker 2>financial penalty, but what you have is a whole network

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<v Speaker 2>of citizens who are actively looking out for one another

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<v Speaker 2>in a positive way. If we cultivate a society like this,

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<v Speaker 2>I think there's much hope for us to look forward to,

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<v Speaker 1>but sam when it comes to effective recycling compounding. The

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<v Speaker 1>issue are common misconceptions about what we can and cannot

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<v Speaker 1>be recycled and I'm sure there are listeners out there

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<v Speaker 1>who have done what's called wish cycling, It's when you

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<v Speaker 1>aren't sure whether something should go into recycling bin, but

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<v Speaker 1>you want to do the right thing, so you chuck

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<v Speaker 1>it in the bin anyway and hope for the best.

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<v Speaker 1>But they're doing more harm than good, aren't they?

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<v Speaker 2>Actually we didn't speak to one of the companies

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<v Speaker 2>that is doing the waste management in Singapore and this

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<v Speaker 2>is a challenge at the end and this is out

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<v Speaker 2>of the view of people so they may not know it,

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<v Speaker 2>but once the bins are emptied out into the recycling

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<v Speaker 2>sorting facility, it poses a challenge. If we do not

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<v Speaker 2>know whether or not this item should be recycled, I

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<v Speaker 2>would urge people to do their research to look it

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<v Speaker 2>up and take it as a challenge. Take it as

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<v Speaker 2>a moment of education or self learning opportunity.

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<v Speaker 2>And I've heard an adult's of Children actually telling the

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<v Speaker 2>parents you can't put that into the recycling bin because

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<v Speaker 2>it's lined with plastic and the Children know it,

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<v Speaker 2>Why do they know it? Because they're in schools because

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<v Speaker 2>they're interested. They're curious, I think as adults then we

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<v Speaker 2>tend to rely on heuristics. We tend to find the

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<v Speaker 2>easiest way out and we get lazy.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's say, actions and behaviors have been resolved. How

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<v Speaker 1>do we make sure we continue recycling and avoid backsliding,

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<v Speaker 1>what does

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<v Speaker 1>psychology tells us about making it a habit that sticks.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's an interesting question. And usually we get this

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<v Speaker 2>sort of questions at the start of the year, where

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<v Speaker 2>people set their new year resolution and the classic examples

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<v Speaker 2>dieting and exercising in this way. It's the same thing

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<v Speaker 2>just on the time frame that we're looking at is different.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not looking at one year cycle where people relapse

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<v Speaker 2>after the first quarter or maybe half the year, but

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<v Speaker 2>really we are trying to ask people to be in

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<v Speaker 2>this for the long run and I think they need

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<v Speaker 2>to see tangible benefits for themselves. Intangible benefits doesn't need

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<v Speaker 2>to come in monetary sense where they get 10 cents

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<v Speaker 2>for every bottle that they recycle, but at least to

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<v Speaker 2>know that they are making an impact.

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<v Speaker 2>We need to highlight this even though the impact might

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<v Speaker 2>not be seen for decades to come. And that's because

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<v Speaker 2>frankly one person in a small population like Singapore in

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<v Speaker 2>the context of a large earth, a singular person wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>make a difference. But what we need to do is

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<v Speaker 2>at the very least play your role thinking about the

0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:38.569
<v Speaker 2>future

0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:42.470
<v Speaker 2>and collectively as a nation, we can then be in

0:12:42.470 --> 0:12:46.560
<v Speaker 2>a better position and also through other means support other

0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:49.730
<v Speaker 2>like minded nations. So we can only do what we

0:12:49.730 --> 0:12:53.660
<v Speaker 2>can do but we shouldn't let the example of others

0:12:53.660 --> 0:12:55.350
<v Speaker 2>be an excuse for us.

0:12:55.550 --> 0:12:58.640
<v Speaker 2>Because if that comes to the end, then we might

0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.330
<v Speaker 2>as well not do anything right, We just sit back

0:13:01.330 --> 0:13:03.900
<v Speaker 2>and we just continue business as usual.

0:13:03.910 --> 0:13:07.500
<v Speaker 1>That's not what we want and sam based on your practices,

0:13:07.500 --> 0:13:10.510
<v Speaker 1>What are one or two tips that people can use

0:13:10.510 --> 0:13:11.990
<v Speaker 1>in their everyday lives to put

0:13:12.010 --> 0:13:13.410
<v Speaker 1>recycling into practice.

0:13:13.730 --> 0:13:15.720
<v Speaker 2>There's two things. So the first thing is you need

0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:19.280
<v Speaker 2>to constantly remember, it starts with me. And the second

0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:23.630
<v Speaker 2>thing is when you're holding a plastic bottle in counseling,

0:13:23.630 --> 0:13:26.720
<v Speaker 2>we used to teach our youth the traffic light, so

0:13:26.730 --> 0:13:28.470
<v Speaker 2>great means to stop,

0:13:29.030 --> 0:13:33.020
<v Speaker 2>right? You stop, pause, okay? And then the ember tells

0:13:33.020 --> 0:13:36.380
<v Speaker 2>you you think and you consider your actions, so what

0:13:36.390 --> 0:13:39.610
<v Speaker 2>are your alternatives? So think about it and I challenge

0:13:39.610 --> 0:13:42.080
<v Speaker 2>everyone to think about it in future terms. Don't think

0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:45.080
<v Speaker 2>about your actions as in what does it bring for

0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:47.730
<v Speaker 2>me today, five minutes later, but really to think about

0:13:47.730 --> 0:13:52.040
<v Speaker 2>the big picture and finally after you have paused to

0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:54.390
<v Speaker 2>think about it, then the green light comes and then

0:13:54.390 --> 0:13:56.830
<v Speaker 2>you go ahead and hopefully with the green light you

0:13:56.830 --> 0:13:57.710
<v Speaker 2>actually do the right.

0:13:58.195 --> 0:13:58.655
<v Speaker 2>That's

0:13:58.655 --> 0:14:01.574
<v Speaker 1>a great challenge. And SAM we've talked about what we

0:14:01.575 --> 0:14:05.245
<v Speaker 1>individuals can do, but before I let you go, how

0:14:05.245 --> 0:14:08.905
<v Speaker 1>about authorities and educators, what can they do to cultivate

0:14:08.905 --> 0:14:12.745
<v Speaker 1>a robust recycling culture? How can they ensure that message

0:14:12.755 --> 0:14:16.135
<v Speaker 1>gets across and leads to behavioral change.

0:14:16.145 --> 0:14:20.494
<v Speaker 2>I think they have a very unenviable challenge, at least

0:14:20.495 --> 0:14:23.745
<v Speaker 2>for those who make the policy or get our infrastructure

0:14:23.745 --> 0:14:26.515
<v Speaker 2>in place. It's a massive challenge, especially when

0:14:26.860 --> 0:14:31.290
<v Speaker 2>50 stories of living together, we really need every individual

0:14:31.290 --> 0:14:35.650
<v Speaker 2>to play their part well, all the infrastructure is beefed

0:14:35.650 --> 0:14:39.190
<v Speaker 2>up but we need more than just blue bins for example,

0:14:39.190 --> 0:14:41.850
<v Speaker 2>europe cycling machine that they will be putting in place,

0:14:41.850 --> 0:14:44.600
<v Speaker 2>but that only takes in plastic, right? And then maybe

0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:48.120
<v Speaker 2>we have the ones for the aluminum tents, but there's

0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:49.060
<v Speaker 2>so many more Prada

0:14:49.085 --> 0:14:53.435
<v Speaker 2>that could be potentially recycled. So how do we then

0:14:53.445 --> 0:14:56.715
<v Speaker 2>ensure that people have the avenue to do that? So

0:14:56.715 --> 0:14:59.795
<v Speaker 2>I think that's the challenge for the authorities. And yet

0:14:59.795 --> 0:15:01.305
<v Speaker 2>at the same time, we also see that they are

0:15:01.305 --> 0:15:05.525
<v Speaker 2>supporting ground up initiatives. They're also supporting

0:15:05.830 --> 0:15:10.100
<v Speaker 2>people who would like to enhance their neighborhoods to promote recycling.

0:15:10.100 --> 0:15:13.510
<v Speaker 2>So near my neighborhood, I see interest group worked with

0:15:13.510 --> 0:15:16.940
<v Speaker 2>an mp to actually get people to recycle paper and

0:15:16.950 --> 0:15:21.030
<v Speaker 2>it showed the mp pointing down here to recycle your

0:15:21.030 --> 0:15:24.460
<v Speaker 2>paper in this particular bin. That's great, it's a very

0:15:24.460 --> 0:15:27.730
<v Speaker 2>human touch to it and it's specific to that community,

0:15:27.740 --> 0:15:30.700
<v Speaker 2>addresses the interests of the community. It brings

0:15:30.715 --> 0:15:34.595
<v Speaker 2>people together, a group of people. You talked about, the educators,

0:15:34.605 --> 0:15:37.635
<v Speaker 2>I think they pay a very key role in nurturing

0:15:37.635 --> 0:15:42.805
<v Speaker 2>our new generation of citizens because it really starts from young.

0:15:42.815 --> 0:15:45.485
<v Speaker 2>It's really hard to change someone who has been doing

0:15:45.485 --> 0:15:48.775
<v Speaker 2>the same thing for 2030 40 years, but if we

0:15:48.775 --> 0:15:52.215
<v Speaker 2>get them on the rightful thing to get them totally

0:15:52.225 --> 0:15:56.495
<v Speaker 2>cute in to what they should be doing and not

0:15:56.495 --> 0:15:57.530
<v Speaker 2>only their role,

0:15:57.890 --> 0:16:02.390
<v Speaker 2>but their role as advocates, their role as climate ambassadors

0:16:02.940 --> 0:16:06.420
<v Speaker 2>so slowly you can see this ripple effect and I

0:16:06.420 --> 0:16:09.650
<v Speaker 2>think the teachers and the schools will also need that

0:16:09.650 --> 0:16:12.690
<v Speaker 2>support to help them in this journey. If not, we'll

0:16:12.690 --> 0:16:15.610
<v Speaker 2>just become another subject, but to really introduce this with

0:16:15.610 --> 0:16:19.590
<v Speaker 2>fun and in a manner where people take this in

0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.560
<v Speaker 2>as a value to be built rather than a knowledge

0:16:22.570 --> 0:16:24.250
<v Speaker 2>that will be tested in class.

0:16:24.260 --> 0:16:27.660
<v Speaker 1>So I really enjoy talking to really appreciate your insights.

0:16:27.670 --> 0:16:29.380
<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much for talking to me.

0:16:29.390 --> 0:16:30.720
<v Speaker 2>Thank you for having me on

0:16:32.950 --> 0:16:35.670
<v Speaker 1>at the heart of the issue of recycling is the

0:16:35.670 --> 0:16:38.630
<v Speaker 1>way we look at the things we consume and if

0:16:38.630 --> 0:16:41.210
<v Speaker 1>they're made of materials which can be put back into

0:16:41.210 --> 0:16:44.870
<v Speaker 1>the system, then it's our responsibility to do our best.

0:16:44.950 --> 0:16:47.320
<v Speaker 1>I hope my chat with Samuel has given you a

0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.560
<v Speaker 1>small nudge in the right direction to do your part.

0:16:50.570 --> 0:16:53.830
<v Speaker 1>If we all did that, the world would certainly be

0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:57.000
<v Speaker 1>a greener place now and in the years to come.

0:16:57.490 --> 0:17:00.770
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening to the climate conversations. The team behind

0:17:00.770 --> 0:17:05.460
<v Speaker 1>this podcast is Jacqueline, chan, Joanne, chan Danieli and Christina

0:17:05.460 --> 0:17:08.170
<v Speaker 1>robert and I'm julie you signing off