Speaker 1: this is a C. N. A.
Speaker 2: Podcast.
Speaker 1: Let's admit it when you finish a canned or bottled drink,
Speaker 1: do you toss it in the special recycle bin or
Speaker 1: just throw it into the regular trash. I try my
Speaker 1: best to recycle and at home my husband is a
Speaker 1: recycling nut, so I'm constantly under watch over what I
Speaker 1: throw away. But it's not always easy and I think
Speaker 1: you'll agree with me that forming any new habit is
Speaker 1: tough and especially when it comes to recycling, there can
Speaker 1: be a big gap between knowing and doing
Speaker 1: the government has been trying to close this gap. The N. E. A.
Speaker 1: Has just proposed a scheme to get people to pay
Speaker 1: 10 to 20 cents more for prepackaged plastic or metal beverages.
Speaker 1: You can get this deposit back if you return to
Speaker 1: cans and bottles at designated points.
Speaker 1: It's a start. But the question is whether this will
Speaker 1: change anything in our attitudes and behaviors when it comes
Speaker 1: to recycling
Speaker 1: to help us understand how we can rethink recycling is
Speaker 1: research fellow and head of the Urban Psychology lab of
Speaker 1: the lee kuan New Center for innovative cities at the
Speaker 1: Singapore University of Technology and Design. Mr Samuel Cheung
Speaker 1: SAm, welcome to the climate conversations. Great to see you.
Speaker 2: It's great to see you too julie, thank you for
Speaker 2: having me On.
Speaker 1: First off, many of us know about the benefits of
Speaker 1: recycling but much like exercising or eating healthily. We often
Speaker 1: recycle less than we should. What are some of the
Speaker 1: common barriers?
Speaker 2: I think
Speaker 2: it's not an easy answer, straightforward answer to your question,
Speaker 2: it's quite complex, it's not just about the people, right?
Speaker 2: It's also about the environment. So if we look at
Speaker 2: the recent OcBc climate index clearly show that people have
Speaker 2: the awareness, they have the understanding of the issue, they
Speaker 2: know that things need to be done.
Speaker 2: However, we see that there is a lack of disconnect
Speaker 2: in terms of what they're actually doing in their daily lives.
Speaker 2: So among people who think that they need to do
Speaker 2: more for the environment are probably also the people who
Speaker 2: are traveling more, flying accumulating this carbon footprint,
Speaker 2: so many of us would probably know that we need
Speaker 2: to do certain things, especially in terms of recycling, but
Speaker 2: why are we not doing it? One part of it
Speaker 2: is because it's inconvenient, another part of it could be
Speaker 2: just just put it in plain terms your lazy, if
Speaker 2: the recycling bin is further than the trash bin, maybe
Speaker 2: we'll put it in the trash bin. And so what
Speaker 2: we have done or we have seen in Singapore, especially
Speaker 2: in the public neighborhoods, right? We've seen the new developments
Speaker 2: having
Speaker 2: a separate shoot for the recyclables as opposed to the trash.
Speaker 2: So it should theoretically make it easier for people to recycle. Right?
Speaker 2: But with the introduction of that is recycling rate really
Speaker 2: going to increase as a psychologist over here and I
Speaker 2: would say probably not, even though there are more bins today,
Speaker 2: there's more awareness but recycling rate?
Speaker 2: It's not up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just to follow up on that, So is it
Speaker 1: safe to say that if it's not as easy as
Speaker 1: simply throwing off down the chute, people won't recycle things properly.
Speaker 2: I think there needs to be a level of investment
Speaker 2: from the people. For example, Taiwan is one example that
Speaker 2: we always look at, they throw their trash in transparent
Speaker 2: trash bags, which means that you are able to see
Speaker 2: the content of the back
Speaker 2: and I recall when I was there, if you have
Speaker 2: recyclables and non recyclable bag, they wouldn't collect the trash
Speaker 2: and you got to keep the trash until the next
Speaker 2: election cycle, you have to re sort the trash because
Speaker 2: we didn't do it religiously over there.
Speaker 2: So it's not a convenient move, but it's something that
Speaker 2: people put in effort over time, it then becomes a habit,
Speaker 2: it becomes subconscious, but in Singapore it might be slightly
Speaker 2: too easy. You just have this blue bin and everything
Speaker 2: goes inside the bin including trash.
Speaker 1: Does that mean that our decisions and behaviors in relation
Speaker 1: to recycling or sustainability can be easily swayed if we
Speaker 1: know some of these mental or psychological levers and triggers.
Speaker 2: Yes, and that's what a lot of our work is about.
Speaker 2: Looking at, identifying levers of change in which we can
Speaker 2: then do something small, seemingly small, but actually lead to
Speaker 2: a cascading effect
Speaker 2: and not only recycling, but into other areas of life
Speaker 2: to trigger climate action. So one way in which we
Speaker 2: are looking at it, it's actually getting people to think
Speaker 2: more about the future. So this is what we call
Speaker 2: the future thinking. So if people are thinking only about
Speaker 2: the present or even thinking about, I just need to
Speaker 2: get rid of this cup fast, it doesn't matter how
Speaker 2: I get rid of it.
Speaker 2: As opposed to if someone is thinking about the future
Speaker 2: in my actions today will impact generations to come, it
Speaker 2: will impact the future or the security of the earth.
Speaker 2: If you're thinking in that terms, then probably holding the
Speaker 2: cup for another five minutes while you look for recycling
Speaker 2: bin would be a lot more tolerable. As opposed to
Speaker 2: just throwing it into the nearest bin.
Speaker 1: Speaking of triggering action. One way is using interventions to
Speaker 1: nudge residents or people to adopt positive waste recycling behaviors
Speaker 1: and the N. E. A recently announced a plan to
Speaker 1: have consumers pay 10 to 20 cents more for drinking
Speaker 1: containers and that they must return for a refund of
Speaker 1: that deposit. What's your assessment of this move?
Speaker 1: Would it help much to improve the recycling rate? I
Speaker 2: Think the short reply would be in Singapore. We have
Speaker 2: a culture of being very compliant once it comes to
Speaker 2: having additional terrorists added to our daily behaviors or daily decisions.
Speaker 2: So probably in that expect it will work. It will
Speaker 2: trigger people to return the bottles. Let's say if it's
Speaker 2: 10 cents if you have 10 bottles is a dollar.
Speaker 2: If you have 20 bottles from like a week,
Speaker 2: that's $2 that's a nice sum of money to actually
Speaker 2: motivate people to do the recycling. But I think the
Speaker 2: devil lies in the detail and the child this is executed.
Speaker 2: Where are you going to put all these up cycling machines?
Speaker 2: Are they going to be in the supermarkets? Are they
Speaker 2: going to be in every community center? Are they going
Speaker 2: to be in shopping malls or even MRT stations where
Speaker 2: people are constantly there? Or should you have one in
Speaker 2: every neighborhood where people can congregate?
Speaker 2: But it's all this worth it. I'm not too sure
Speaker 2: because at least from my perspective it's a great way
Speaker 2: to start, but at the same time you don't want
Speaker 2: people to continue on this behavior just because of this
Speaker 2: tencent 20 cent charge that they can get back in
Speaker 2: terms of value, but you ultimately want is for this
Speaker 2: behavior to become part and parcel of their life to
Speaker 2: become the new social norm rather than just getting people
Speaker 2: to recycle for money.
Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Sarah Khaldi and I'm the host
Speaker 1: of a new podcast called Money talks. Yes, we will
Speaker 1: be talking about money, but more than that, we'll also
Speaker 1: be talking about life personal choices, lucky breaks and how
Speaker 1: money is the thread running through it all. So look
Speaker 1: out for our episodes wherever you get your podcasts,
Speaker 1: what currently recycling is done on a voluntary basis. Should
Speaker 1: we consider something a bit more hard hitting like stern enforcement,
Speaker 1: such as surveillance cameras near the bins or guards that
Speaker 1: oversee whether people are recycling properly or even in position
Speaker 1: of hefty fines because coming from south Korea, such measures
Speaker 1: were quite effective.
Speaker 2: I think government agencies here also trying to find the
Speaker 2: right
Speaker 2: balance being perceived as too hard handed. Actually one of
Speaker 2: our challenges that we live in a very high density city,
Speaker 2: which means for example, and household recycling. How do we
Speaker 2: actually police it? Are we going to install sensors out
Speaker 2: of everyone's door because we share a common shoot? Right,
Speaker 2: so it's very difficult for us to then assess who
Speaker 2: is not recycling and to go after the person or
Speaker 2: the household. So I think that there is some challenge
Speaker 2: to it.
Speaker 2: And so at least from a psychological perspective, I would
Speaker 2: rather change people's thinking to change their behavior and to
Speaker 2: make it sustainable rather than going after technological solutions or
Speaker 2: going after monetary penalties. These are means to an end,
Speaker 2: but it might not lead to a system wide or
Speaker 2: societal wide change.
Speaker 2: So let's see, what about the plastic bag charge for example,
Speaker 2: after a while, 10 cents isn't painful anymore. Are you
Speaker 2: going to keep increasing it? 20 cents, 30 cents, 40 cents,
Speaker 2: which is what is happening in the UK, right? They've
Speaker 2: got to revise the price, but at one point in
Speaker 2: time people are going to be numb on the impact.
Speaker 2: So you got to do more or even more to
Speaker 2: sustain the level of change and what about that 10%
Speaker 2: or 15% of
Speaker 2: or just do not do it?
Speaker 1: What can effectively motivate people more? Is it more incentives
Speaker 1: and rewards or penalties and punishment stick or carrot?
Speaker 2: Maybe let's find it in between a carrot that is
Speaker 2: also stick. Maybe we could use peer pressure, social pressure.
Speaker 2: So what if, if I'm staying next to usually and
Speaker 2: I see you putting a can into the trash, but
Speaker 2: if I go after you and I say, hold on,
Speaker 2: you know, what are you doing? You probably should be
Speaker 2: putting it in the blue bed, right? That, that probably
Speaker 2: works a lot better and that is kind of the
Speaker 2: policing or also the penalty, but you don't incur like
Speaker 2: financial penalty, but what you have is a whole network
Speaker 2: of citizens who are actively looking out for one another
Speaker 2: in a positive way. If we cultivate a society like this,
Speaker 2: I think there's much hope for us to look forward to,
Speaker 1: but sam when it comes to effective recycling compounding. The
Speaker 1: issue are common misconceptions about what we can and cannot
Speaker 1: be recycled and I'm sure there are listeners out there
Speaker 1: who have done what's called wish cycling, It's when you
Speaker 1: aren't sure whether something should go into recycling bin, but
Speaker 1: you want to do the right thing, so you chuck
Speaker 1: it in the bin anyway and hope for the best.
Speaker 1: But they're doing more harm than good, aren't they?
Speaker 2: Actually we didn't speak to one of the companies
Speaker 2: that is doing the waste management in Singapore and this
Speaker 2: is a challenge at the end and this is out
Speaker 2: of the view of people so they may not know it,
Speaker 2: but once the bins are emptied out into the recycling
Speaker 2: sorting facility, it poses a challenge. If we do not
Speaker 2: know whether or not this item should be recycled, I
Speaker 2: would urge people to do their research to look it
Speaker 2: up and take it as a challenge. Take it as
Speaker 2: a moment of education or self learning opportunity.
Speaker 2: And I've heard an adult's of Children actually telling the
Speaker 2: parents you can't put that into the recycling bin because
Speaker 2: it's lined with plastic and the Children know it,
Speaker 2: Why do they know it? Because they're in schools because
Speaker 2: they're interested. They're curious, I think as adults then we
Speaker 2: tend to rely on heuristics. We tend to find the
Speaker 2: easiest way out and we get lazy.
Speaker 1: So let's say, actions and behaviors have been resolved. How
Speaker 1: do we make sure we continue recycling and avoid backsliding,
Speaker 1: what does
Speaker 1: psychology tells us about making it a habit that sticks.
Speaker 2: So that's an interesting question. And usually we get this
Speaker 2: sort of questions at the start of the year, where
Speaker 2: people set their new year resolution and the classic examples
Speaker 2: dieting and exercising in this way. It's the same thing
Speaker 2: just on the time frame that we're looking at is different.
Speaker 2: We're not looking at one year cycle where people relapse
Speaker 2: after the first quarter or maybe half the year, but
Speaker 2: really we are trying to ask people to be in
Speaker 2: this for the long run and I think they need
Speaker 2: to see tangible benefits for themselves. Intangible benefits doesn't need
Speaker 2: to come in monetary sense where they get 10 cents
Speaker 2: for every bottle that they recycle, but at least to
Speaker 2: know that they are making an impact.
Speaker 2: We need to highlight this even though the impact might
Speaker 2: not be seen for decades to come. And that's because
Speaker 2: frankly one person in a small population like Singapore in
Speaker 2: the context of a large earth, a singular person wouldn't
Speaker 2: make a difference. But what we need to do is
Speaker 2: at the very least play your role thinking about the
Speaker 2: future
Speaker 2: and collectively as a nation, we can then be in
Speaker 2: a better position and also through other means support other
Speaker 2: like minded nations. So we can only do what we
Speaker 2: can do but we shouldn't let the example of others
Speaker 2: be an excuse for us.
Speaker 2: Because if that comes to the end, then we might
Speaker 2: as well not do anything right, We just sit back
Speaker 2: and we just continue business as usual.
Speaker 1: That's not what we want and sam based on your practices,
Speaker 1: What are one or two tips that people can use
Speaker 1: in their everyday lives to put
Speaker 1: recycling into practice.
Speaker 2: There's two things. So the first thing is you need
Speaker 2: to constantly remember, it starts with me. And the second
Speaker 2: thing is when you're holding a plastic bottle in counseling,
Speaker 2: we used to teach our youth the traffic light, so
Speaker 2: great means to stop,
Speaker 2: right? You stop, pause, okay? And then the ember tells
Speaker 2: you you think and you consider your actions, so what
Speaker 2: are your alternatives? So think about it and I challenge
Speaker 2: everyone to think about it in future terms. Don't think
Speaker 2: about your actions as in what does it bring for
Speaker 2: me today, five minutes later, but really to think about
Speaker 2: the big picture and finally after you have paused to
Speaker 2: think about it, then the green light comes and then
Speaker 2: you go ahead and hopefully with the green light you
Speaker 2: actually do the right.
Speaker 2: That's
Speaker 1: a great challenge. And SAM we've talked about what we
Speaker 1: individuals can do, but before I let you go, how
Speaker 1: about authorities and educators, what can they do to cultivate
Speaker 1: a robust recycling culture? How can they ensure that message
Speaker 1: gets across and leads to behavioral change.
Speaker 2: I think they have a very unenviable challenge, at least
Speaker 2: for those who make the policy or get our infrastructure
Speaker 2: in place. It's a massive challenge, especially when
Speaker 2: 50 stories of living together, we really need every individual
Speaker 2: to play their part well, all the infrastructure is beefed
Speaker 2: up but we need more than just blue bins for example,
Speaker 2: europe cycling machine that they will be putting in place,
Speaker 2: but that only takes in plastic, right? And then maybe
Speaker 2: we have the ones for the aluminum tents, but there's
Speaker 2: so many more Prada
Speaker 2: that could be potentially recycled. So how do we then
Speaker 2: ensure that people have the avenue to do that? So
Speaker 2: I think that's the challenge for the authorities. And yet
Speaker 2: at the same time, we also see that they are
Speaker 2: supporting ground up initiatives. They're also supporting
Speaker 2: people who would like to enhance their neighborhoods to promote recycling.
Speaker 2: So near my neighborhood, I see interest group worked with
Speaker 2: an mp to actually get people to recycle paper and
Speaker 2: it showed the mp pointing down here to recycle your
Speaker 2: paper in this particular bin. That's great, it's a very
Speaker 2: human touch to it and it's specific to that community,
Speaker 2: addresses the interests of the community. It brings
Speaker 2: people together, a group of people. You talked about, the educators,
Speaker 2: I think they pay a very key role in nurturing
Speaker 2: our new generation of citizens because it really starts from young.
Speaker 2: It's really hard to change someone who has been doing
Speaker 2: the same thing for 2030 40 years, but if we
Speaker 2: get them on the rightful thing to get them totally
Speaker 2: cute in to what they should be doing and not
Speaker 2: only their role,
Speaker 2: but their role as advocates, their role as climate ambassadors
Speaker 2: so slowly you can see this ripple effect and I
Speaker 2: think the teachers and the schools will also need that
Speaker 2: support to help them in this journey. If not, we'll
Speaker 2: just become another subject, but to really introduce this with
Speaker 2: fun and in a manner where people take this in
Speaker 2: as a value to be built rather than a knowledge
Speaker 2: that will be tested in class.
Speaker 1: So I really enjoy talking to really appreciate your insights.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much for talking to me.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me on
Speaker 1: at the heart of the issue of recycling is the
Speaker 1: way we look at the things we consume and if
Speaker 1: they're made of materials which can be put back into
Speaker 1: the system, then it's our responsibility to do our best.
Speaker 1: I hope my chat with Samuel has given you a
Speaker 1: small nudge in the right direction to do your part.
Speaker 1: If we all did that, the world would certainly be
Speaker 1: a greener place now and in the years to come.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the climate conversations. The team behind
Speaker 1: this podcast is Jacqueline, chan, Joanne, chan Danieli and Christina
Speaker 1: robert and I'm julie you signing off