S1: Hello and welcome to another episode of Men. Explain, Is
S1: Sonia here with you? Thank you so much for all
S1: the support and the love so far has been so
S1: much fun. I've been learning so much about the men's perspective.
S1: Today's guest is someone that I've never actually sat down
S1: to have a conversation like this with before. And also,
S1: he is a sight for sore eyes. Please welcome Erin.
S2: Hi, everyone. My name's Aaron and I'm an actor.
S1: And you know what? Today's topic is interesting because we
S1: are about to address why men or most men, maybe
S1: not you and most feel the need to suppress their
S1: emotions and hide their emotions. And, you know, terms like, oh,
S1: grow a pair or like or men or you're not
S1: manly enough these terms that are thrown around quite a bit, right?
S1: So we want to explore how toxic masculinity impacts our society.
S1: Is this going to be a stressful one for you?
S1: Are you coolly opening up
S2: chatting with me? Yeah, I think it's fine. I think
S2: it's something that that is very important to me. I mean,
S2: I was raised by women, so there was always a
S2: disparity in how I felt growing up. And then I
S2: go out into the world and have all these expectations
S2: and I'm like, Huh, okay? And even from within the
S2: family or and the ones who have raised me to
S2: be who I am.
S1: Yeah, yeah. And do you feel like generally you're the
S1: kind of person that is very in touch with your feelings?
S2: I think I've always been very in touch. My feelings,
S2: I'm a very emotional person. Yeah. So growing up, I
S2: used to always cry easily at movies. And no, I
S2: still cry easily at movies.
S1: Thing.
S2: Apparently, it's not something that
S1: is socially acceptable.
S2: Yeah. Yeah. Those ones in through your. And so the
S2: whole cohort went to watch Bridge to Terabithia in GB
S2: action and that movie director Mila. Yeah, it wrecked me.
S2: I was crying and I can feel everyone accumulate. Like,
S2: what
S1: the heck is going on?
S2: Yeah, it was really sad. It turns out only one
S2: other guy in the entire cohort cried. So three of
S2: us like, Yeah, man, I mean, I feel, you know, yeah,
S2: but everyone else made us feel like, like, Jesus Christ,
S2: these guys are a bunch of wusses, you know? Yeah.
S1: So obviously in today's episode, we are also looking at
S1: how society has, you know, brought us up as such,
S1: you know, with certain assumptions and how maybe you as
S1: a man as well, you feel like when you were younger,
S1: perhaps you had to conform to certain ideas or like
S1: certain ways that people see men as right. So were
S1: there some moments in your life where you feel like, OK,
S1: I can not show my feelings aside from the movies or,
S1: you know, I have to restrain myself or be more
S1: manly or light goes on balls, you know, stuff like that.
S2: Yeah, definitely. I think especially growing up when it's not
S2: even to strangers or people that you're not very close to,
S2: sometimes it's to your own closest friends. You don't you
S2: want to fit in. I think back then, everyone kind
S2: of just one that once the gang up with someone,
S2: it's easy to gang up on to make themselves feel
S2: better because everyone's just insecure. Growing up, we went to
S2: band together. In the easiest way to do that is to,
S2: you know, make someone else, you plug it in.
S1: It still happens when we're adults, but
S2: you know, it's yeah, it's really unhealthy and just not
S2: the not a good thing for anyone to do that. Yeah. So, OK. Recently,
S2: about two years ago, I learned how to drive.
S1: Oh, OK. Yeah, so that's how
S2: you guys first time, first time. All right. But I
S2: took it and I got so many people going like Otto,
S2: like you might. So, you know, you might seem
S1: like, why didn't you take manual?
S2: Exactly. It's like it's a man's thing to drive manual.
S2: I'm like, Have you seen Singapore?
S1: Like, there's not a single manual
S2: conference last time you saw manual kind and you want
S2: to start stop in traffic. It's just not practical, right?
S2: But this association with how many it is the great manual.
S2: I'm like, OK, oh, growing up when when everyone was
S2: trying to be cool and smaller? Yeah. So number one,
S2: is that smoking because you want to be different, you know,
S2: after school, you know, be different. You want to be
S2: a man, you grow up. So what does everyone start with?
S2: Rids because you know you want to be the Marlboro
S1: man, right? Cannot be menthol.
S2: Exactly.
S1: The fruit flavors.
S2: Yeah. And my throat couldn't handle it. I was like,
S2: Oh my god, it's why does anyone want to smoke reds?
S2: I mean, you know, on TV, you see in Mad Men, Californication,
S2: Sons of Anarchy, all these cool manly men smoking rates, right?
S2: So we all start there, and I was like, This
S2: is not smart. I can't handle this. So I switch
S2: to something really like I started. I can't remember what
S2: it was like a long time ago, and I got
S2: so much shit fruit. Everyone's like, What? You taught me?
S1: Why I understand the association of like something fruity, something
S1: nice flavor. It is never really manly enough. Yeah, yeah,
S1: I can't. We mean, it's interesting that you raise up
S1: the issue about driving because in general, I feel like
S1: men are expected to drive well. You expect it to
S1: have a natural flair for it to be able to
S1: partly instantly. Do you feel that kind of pressure?
S2: Yes. I don't know where it comes from. I really don't.
S2: It's really just like the societal norms, local norms, right? Yeah,
S2: I think I'm a decent driver, but certainly not a star.
S2: It's not so. Naturally, you know, I look in all
S2: the different mirrors and I overthink it, and I'm like
S2: a big cobra, you know, when when you're very new
S2: on the road and then you know, you always see
S2: people like, Oh, no wonder, female driver,
S1: OK, I know that's a thing that pisses me off
S1: to every time. Like, Oh, something bad happens. I almost
S1: be a girl driving like, Yeah,
S2: I actually have a friend who doesn't trust female drivers. Oh, really? Yeah.
S2: It's gotten to the point where if you booked a cab,
S1: what a stereotype. I know,
S2: and we're just like, Well, you're fascinating. You're married. How
S2: you like, how does your wife feel about that? You know, like,
S2: he's a very nice person, but this is what he believes,
S2: and it just goes to show that this is not
S2: something that needs to be, you know, out of spite
S2: or malice. It's just some people really were just nurture
S2: to feel that way. And it's unfortunate.
S1: I think it's just so deep rooted. It's so funny
S1: that we're starting with this example because it is so
S1: true like it is one of the biggest examples in
S1: day-to-day life, right? You know, when when I started driving
S1: as well, like people or my friends and all would
S1: be like, you know, better not drive like, go alone
S1: or that kind of thing. Or, yeah, I mean, just
S1: as a passing remark, you know, they don't mean anything
S1: bad or they don't mean anything with malice, like you said.
S1: But it is such a deep rooted thing in society.
S1: And I think that every time something that happens on
S1: the road or whatever, and it's highlighted that it's a
S1: girl or woman then or men that makes it extra bad.
S1: And all these negative things are highlighted in the media
S1: as well. Then you get all your keyboard warriors going
S1: on and stuff like that.
S2: Well, if the headlines don't show it in the comments
S2: that they're definitely going to comment, like, what's the gender like? Oh,
S2: no wonder.
S1: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
S2: And I don't know. And you see the thing is when,
S2: when people see it, you know, so casually in part
S2: in passing comments, right? But you kind of realize that
S2: it's that deep root that they don't think like, Oh,
S2: you know, it's it's a thing. Everyone knows this, but
S1: almost like casual sexism in a way.
S2: Why have you stopped to wonder why? Like, you think
S2: that's weird?
S1: I mean, I have a couple of girlfriends who are
S1: terrible addressing joke who don't tell you that, OK, yeah,
S1: it is cool. Yeah. Anyway, I'm bringing us back to
S1: the topic, as well as really interesting that we started
S1: with that, I think is a good time to also
S1: properly define what toxic masculinity is because all of these
S1: examples are perfect. Example is really they do realize you
S1: may not even realize it. Sometimes it just flies by
S1: the radar. We don't even realize that this is toxic
S1: behavior or toxic masculinity, suppressing emotions or hiding distress that
S1: could be one of aggression as an indication of power.
S1: All classic examples here, and sometimes we just don't even
S1: realize it. Yeah. In this industry, and you've been in
S1: this industry for for a couple of years now, for
S1: some time now, right? Do you feel like at any
S1: point in time, you need it to conform to the
S1: idea of being a very masculine man? Or do you
S1: think that this industry has allowed you to be more
S1: in touch with, you know, your feelings and other sort
S1: of sights of you?
S2: Hmm. I don't think I had to conform in the industry.
S2: I think that in any way, anywhere you go, you know,
S2: you kind of want to be charming if the guy
S2: is right. And, you know, sometimes you hear very cool,
S2: casual like sexist remarks being passed around and just like, OK,
S2: I wouldn't call this guy out because you don't want
S2: the energy on set. I understand. Yeah. So I think
S2: that's the fullest extent. I think as far as that goes,
S2: what
S1: about like previously in school or. Oh yeah.
S2: Yeah, yeah, we've always.
S1: Oh, OK. You know what? Yes. And give you some examples. Yeah.
S2: I mean, it's it's, you know, like, there's the crying thing.
S2: Everyone just wants to to be secure. And so naturally,
S2: like if you don't want to confront your yourself and
S2: who you really are, you're emotions and all that. The
S2: easiest way to do it is to be the most
S2: superficially masculine men. Be sporty, you know, be good at
S2: sports because you know, who's gonna look at the guy
S2: who's good at math and go like, Oh, that's a
S2: real man. Right? Because you know, this guy can be
S2: whatever man even is defined. Baylor Yeah. But the easiest
S2: way to to feel like one is to at least
S2: be more different than the woman, which is in your
S2: physical appearance. Right, right. So I was a very scrawny kid,
S2: scrawny kid. Not really a hit of the girls. It was. Yeah,
S2: and that definitely takes a toll, right? Because you've got
S2: all these people who are more athletic, more masculine, more
S2: deemed worthy or attractive or more manly. And so naturally,
S2: you just kind of feel like maybe I should be
S2: like that. Maybe it's this is what I need to
S2: do to gain the attention of the opposite sex or something.
S1: And I was just sharing with the team earlier on
S1: that because you were asking me also about my take
S1: on it. Since, you know, obviously I've had a history
S1: of like ex-boyfriends and stuff like that, right? And I
S1: realized that all, almost all of my ex-boyfriends are very different. Like,
S1: there's not one like all, like all of them are muscular.
S1: All of them are fit. That is all shapes and sizes.
S1: All types of. Men, you know, as well. And I
S1: thought to myself, like, did I or do I look
S1: out for a masculine, fit looking guy? Not necessarily. I mean,
S1: you're absolutely right. I think what matters more is if
S1: a guy is confident in your own skin, you're confident,
S1: you're healthy. You know what you're doing. It doesn't bother
S1: you if you're standing next to like an ultra buff
S1: guy or something. I don't know. Does that? Is that
S1: a guy thing? Like sometimes when you stand next to
S1: someone that's so buff and fit, you're like, Ooh, I
S1: feel a little not so strong or something.
S2: From what I've experienced and learned, a lot of guys
S2: to go to the gym, the ones who really look
S2: after their bodies and they want to sculpt this muscle
S2: in their muscle and watch everything to eat. They're actually
S2: one of the most insecure.
S1: I think so, too.
S2: Yeah. Yeah. I'm not. You mean, maybe they started going
S2: to the gym because of that. But I think ultimately,
S2: if you're putting in so much effort to look this way,
S2: and then along comes another guy who you deem looks
S2: better than you.
S1: Usually it takes a jab at your confidence again,
S2: you know, because you want to be the best. But
S2: then you're like, Oh shit, this is other guy. But ultimately, yeah,
S2: you can also, I mean, there are a lot of
S2: jacked guys who are very confident, but I don't think
S2: that confidence lies solely in your physical appearance. I think
S2: it lies in your own confidence that may come from
S2: working in your body.
S1: Interesting. You say that because, you know, as much as
S1: girls always think like, Oh, we are such insecure creatures and,
S1: you know, sometimes within our girlfriends, we don't necessarily share
S1: it all the time with our male friends or like
S1: our partners or whatever. But amongst the girls, OK, I'm
S1: sure that if you are watching right now, you might agree.
S1: We're always like, Oh, my skin sucks or like, Oh,
S1: I need to like lose for CG or like, oh, like,
S1: it's real. Oh my god, my Ebanks. You know your
S1: life because you know it's true, right? Yeah. So we
S1: have about this amongst ourselves. And then we also rely
S1: on each other to uplift each other to be like,
S1: No girl, you are so hot, you're the prettiest. OK,
S1: I know I'm going on right now, but this is true.
S1: This is what we do back.
S2: And I've heard stories about like the female bathroom in
S2: clubs and apparently it's like utopia and everyone gets along,
S2: but the male bathroom is not like that.
S1: So what goes on in the male bathroom? Just curious
S1: because we can spend like 30 minutes in there talking
S1: to the street, talking to a total stranger, sharing makeup,
S1: you know, like you seeing like in a bar that
S1: was so good. Sure. This is sherry glass pre-pandemic.
S2: Even pre-pandemic, you
S1: know, sometimes if a sister needs help, like, I'll share
S1: my lip gloss, then do
S2: you like chop off the top?
S1: No, you just think maybe you just want her head
S1: love and she like,
S2: Oh, OK, OK, OK, OK, it's not too
S1: bad, but when everyone's drunk, who knows?
S2: That's a very good point. Yeah, the the male bathroom
S2: was not like that.
S1: It's the silence of those
S2: grunts, right? It's again, number one. I don't know what
S2: the female bathroom looks like, but I would. I think
S2: it's a lot cleaner because people in pee in the
S2: floors and stuff.
S1: Well, honey, you will be surprised. Wow. The bathroom in clubs. Oh,
S1: not the best place to be.
S2: Yeah, I don't miss that.
S1: Yeah, that's the one part. I don't.
S2: Yeah, I think in clubs for men, there's a higher
S2: chance for them to be very sussing out the competition. Yeah,
S2: they're very defensive. There's a lot of posturing. There's a
S2: lot of like, you know, like because everyone wants to
S2: feel good about themselves, right? Because they're out on the
S2: prowl or something. Yeah, we kind of want to feel
S2: better than the person next to us. So even in
S2: the in the bathrooms, there's a lot of like bravado,
S2: you know,
S1: and and that can be toxic to toxic masculinity. Exactly.
S2: And you know, when you don't feel that way, but
S2: everyone's doing that, you kind of feel like, Okay, I
S2: got to be a bit defensive here. Like, I always
S2: get paranoid. Like, what if somebody wants to pick a fight?
S1: So on that note, has you know your upbringing and
S1: your surroundings in your family sort of changed the way
S1: that you view masculinity as well as you grew up?
S2: I think so. There was never any clear and conscious like,
S2: this is what it is to be a man or something.
S2: But maybe that's why I'm a bit more emotional, bit
S2: more in tune with my emotions. Yeah, my dad is
S2: a very mans man. So what happened was I would
S2: feel like the way I feel. I'm very emotional and very.
S2: He's called me a snag,
S1: a snag
S2: bag, which I was like, Yes, I'm a snake. So
S2: snake is sensitive. New Age guy. Oh yeah. You and
S2: your
S1: acronyms, man like, OK, since the New Age, guy. Yeah,
S1: all I know is a snack snack. Yeah, OK,
S2: that's 21st century. So giving me my age?
S1: Yes, exactly.
S2: So going on into the world, I would already feel
S2: this way. Maybe it's because of my upbringing. Yeah. And
S2: then I I meet other guys who are, you know,
S2: everyone's trying to be different from that posture should be
S2: more manly, especially in secondary school when you need to
S2: do something to stand down, right, because everyone's wear a uniform,
S2: same haircut kind of stuff. It was very jarring. So didn't.
S2: I said looking at TV shows are my, Oh look,
S2: this guy is pretty cool. Maybe I should. Maybe I
S2: should try to be like him. Maybe I should try
S2: to be like that. Maybe I should try to be
S2: like this, like that to fulfill these roles and stereotypes
S2: of what it is to be a man to feel
S2: about the. About myself. Yeah. But in reality, deep down,
S2: I was always very sensitive, I never really felt very manly.
S2: You see this in pop culture, you see this out
S2: there in the world, especially when you're young and trying
S2: to find your place and find who you are. I
S2: think over time, I just got very comfortable with, you
S2: know what? I'm not happy trying to posture and trying
S2: to be something I'm not. Yeah, you can even even
S2: like the first time I saw that drinking. Right? OK.
S2: I enjoy beer. I enjoy whiskey. But how are
S1: you enjoying prosecco? Oh, no, no. OK, you well, use
S1: this one.
S2: But yeah, but it used to be a norm to
S2: go like, Oh, that's a girlie drink. Yes. Yeah. How
S2: do you like your whisky at the Bensebaini? Like, you know,
S2: how many do you, how much hair you have? And
S2: that's it's like, it's ridiculous.
S1: Can you just say how much hair you ever do?
S2: We are really meant to feel like that. We really
S2: need to feel like, Oh, I need to fit in
S2: and conform. So yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally I can.
S2: You know, he's the little white lie.
S1: Yeah, he clearly still has no idea.
S2: I mean, I know what was he like, but I'm
S2: not going to stop feeling the need to pretend. Yes. Like,
S2: I'm this passionate because this is what makes me a man,
S2: and that's my identity, because that's not sustainable. It's just
S2: very afterwards. Like, Oh my gosh, you have to live
S2: wearing a mask, you know, I got piercings and then
S2: I used to have what you call your rings, right? OK.
S1: Whoops. Is it? Yeah, OK.
S2: I mean, small, small black one. Yeah. But then I
S2: would still get, you know, comments on really rings. Yeah.
S2: I'm like, OK, fine studs. Final before studs. I did
S2: all these little things. Like the other day, a family
S2: member pointed out that I was wearing a lot of
S2: accessories and accessories, so I was wearing light bracelet and stuff.
S2: So I think it is a generational thing. Yes, right?
S2: So she was like, You wearing so many accessories? Don't
S2: you feel like a girl?
S1: Oh yeah. What did you say to that?
S2: I was I was shocked, so I thought, No, should I?
S2: You know, it's these two. I think there is change
S2: with the generations. I think the younger generation is very
S2: aware of these things and very vocal about it. So
S2: that's very good. We're in the right direction. The resistance,
S2: I feel, will always come from the older generations who
S2: pass on this knowledge to the new generation. So in
S2: every generation, you still have those people subscribing to the,
S2: you know, the old norms because, oh, my dad said,
S2: that's a good thing to do, so I can never
S2: do that. I'm looking to a life coach now, and
S2: he's been giving me very good advice. Oh, that's great. Yeah.
S2: So you're saying that when we put labels on things,
S2: we don't want to put in the work to understand
S2: these things, you know, so like you can always say, like, Oh,
S2: this guy's just a jackass. But if he did the work,
S2: we actually sat down with him and said, Hey, man,
S2: what's really going on here? Yeah, it's not normal. Why
S2: do you want to spend money? Go to a club,
S2: spend money in the clubs
S1: that have a horrible time?
S2: Yeah, where you might get your ass kicked. Like, it
S2: doesn't make sense what's really going on? And you know,
S2: I guess for the most part, people don't, especially at
S2: the age, sit down and figure themselves out, of course,
S2: you know, so then they just project these are just
S2: projections
S1: of your own unhappiness with yourself, your dissatisfaction or something.
S1: Has it ever affected your relationships? Like, has it ever
S1: been a topic where you know it was brought up
S1: in an argument or I don't know the topic of
S1: masculinity has ever come up before?
S2: No, I've only ever had one ex-girlfriend. So no, I
S2: don't think.
S1: Oh, great. Even when you guys are angry, like,
S2: why would that come up?
S1: Because I'm a man. Yeah, yeah. And I guess in
S1: some fights I hear, you know, from my friends, I
S1: personally haven't really experienced too much of it as well.
S1: But some of my friends who share their concerns when
S1: it comes to relationships are like, Oh, you know, I
S1: need my boyfriend, for example, to be more of a man. Like,
S1: I need him to take charge. I need him to,
S1: you know, come pick me up or take control or,
S1: you know, I need him to support me more financially
S1: in the future. I need to know that I'm secure
S1: stuff like that. And I know as a friend as
S1: well who is very frustrated that her boyfriend doesn't want
S1: a car. Oh, I'm not sure if this would spark
S1: off any sort of, you know, memories or, you know,
S1: experiences that you had before. Do you feel pressure to
S1: be like, Oh, you know, when in car, I need
S1: to own a car, I need to buy the house,
S1: I need to.
S2: Do you live in Singapore then?
S1: Yeah, we're good. Yeah.
S2: As far as owning a car goes, I've never wanted
S2: to own a car because of the cause. That's just
S2: not practical. I get done on the way to work
S2: in the cab, which I can't do if I'm driving. Yeah.
S2: So no, but obviously that there's this grand fantasy of
S2: being picked up on a date or sent home off
S2: that date. Exactly. So because I only got my license
S2: like two years ago, I didn't do that many times.
S2: It's not really anything to do with being a man.
S2: It's just like the gesture. The gesture is one thing,
S2: and it's just like this classic date field where you
S2: actually get picked up and sent home and all that.
S1: But I think the concept of dating in this day
S1: and age has changed a lot or it is constantly changing. Exactly.
S1: So I mean, on that note, also, I guess I
S1: will share a story or one of my the one
S1: of the first guys that I ever did it. OK?
S1: This was back then when I was doing poorly and
S1: he was slightly older me, so he had to go
S1: to N.S. at that point in time. I don't know
S1: whether this will take you back to some memories you
S1: know in.
S2: And that's a
S1: that's that's tough, is it?
S2: You know, it's way of toxic masculinity, lives
S1: and thrives, survives there and you can if you share
S1: a few samples with me after. But I few, like
S1: during that time, I was still very young, didn't have
S1: much experience in relationships. Heck, I didn't even know how
S1: to date or whatever like I was from a girls school,
S1: like 10 years of my life didn't know how to dress.
S1: You know how to put on makeup, whatever. Heck, I
S1: don't know anything. I went to poly like totally blank.
S1: Slate had no idea what was going on. So when
S1: the guy that I was dating back then had to
S1: go into an S., I was thinking, Oh, how hard
S1: could it be? I can still see him on the weekends,
S1: you know, is going to be all good and all that.
S1: But what I did not realize was that he was
S1: going through a lot during this period, especially what is
S1: it called the. Yeah, where they have to stay in
S1: and then you get you only get a very limited
S1: amount of time with them. I think he was going
S1: through a lot internally and struggling with, you know, I guess,
S1: being there, being stuck there, the activities and just, you know,
S1: it took a toll on his psychological health, too. And
S1: he never really wanted to open up to me about
S1: it because he's always like, Yeah, I got it, you know,
S1: is cool, is fine and you always want to plan,
S1: you know, dates and stuff like that on the weekend.
S1: And I appreciated that, but I felt like I didn't
S1: ask him about his feelings enough, and he didn't also
S1: want to open up to me enough about what he
S1: was going through. And eventually it imploded because he he
S1: he spiraled down into a bit of depression as well,
S1: and he acted out in some ways and in families
S1: had to get involved. Oh, and I really feel bad because,
S1: you know, I mean, if you're watching us now like,
S1: you know, not going to name names, but I felt
S1: bad because I think as a partner, I wasn't also
S1: having these conversations with him or having enough of these conversations.
S1: And perhaps we were younger as well, didn't know how
S1: to deal with certain things or address and things. But,
S1: you know, I felt like I could have been a
S1: better girlfriend for him to lean on emotionally. It's just
S1: a matter of whether you want to open up to
S1: a trusted person. Right?
S2: And I think ultimately, we always we just we don't
S2: know how the exit is, so we can always just
S2: think to ourselves, like, maybe I could have done this,
S2: maybe I could have done that. But it's just, you know,
S2: it's it's could I would have should have left. Yeah.
S2: I think guys going through Amy as well because they
S2: have all the other guy friends going through. I mean,
S2: the number one, don't want to be this caricature way.
S2: All they can talk about is, I mean, to their partners,
S2: I'd say, because he probably didn't want to scare you away.
S1: Exactly.
S2: Yeah, I mean, you get all these guys who are like,
S2: just like, Oh yeah, it is. And men love to
S2: talk in acronyms because everything in the SDF is an acronym. Okay?
S2: And indeed, at the same time, explaining and trying to
S2: explain why it's so difficult. And they would rather just
S2: talk to people who've been there. And because they do
S2: have such little time review, they would rather just focus
S2: on the two of you. But unfortunately, yeah, it is
S2: important to to share what is bothering you. And I think,
S2: you know, men generally do struggle with that.
S1: Yeah, yeah. I think like it's a great perception that
S1: you gave me because I never thought of it that way, honestly.
S1: And ever since then, I've not dated anyone else in
S1: Ennis during doing that phase of life. It's a rough time. Yeah,
S1: it's a rough time. How was your how was your time?
S1: There was a lot of toxic masculinity. You mentioned there
S2: are examples of toxic masculinity there. I think, you know,
S2: the more the more Garang you are, the more the
S2: more
S1: the more manly you come across.
S2: Yeah, but some people are very capable. Not physically. Yeah, yeah.
S1: Of course that's the thing. So I feel like manliness
S1: or what is perceived as manliness could come in a
S1: variety of ways is not just like muscles and, you know,
S1: brute force or whatever could be intellect. Yeah, it could
S1: be personality. It could be so many other things, right?
S2: And this can make people great soldiers as well. Maybe
S2: they're not the most obviously physically fit, but they have
S2: other qualities that made them a good soldier. But that
S2: is an easily recognized at the start that takes time,
S2: and you need to put these people in pressure situations, right?
S2: And unfortunately, you know, we we don't have enough of
S2: that before we judge someone. I saw I saw a
S2: lot of people who are seemingly meek, very small. But
S2: those dudes can last in the field. They can just
S2: keep fighting and carrying heavy loads.
S1: The psychological strength is that your mind is powerful.
S2: Yeah, I don't know what it is. I remember being
S2: very like, Wow, OK. And because for me, I would
S2: have all these sergeants going, like, How Geula? Yeah, I'm like,
S2: I can run. I'm happy with silver. I barely hits
S2: a scratch Silva, right? But there's this immediate expectation.
S1: So do you feel like in general, this whole perception
S1: is changing along the way? Do you think you know,
S1: guys and even you opening up about, you know, going
S1: for your life, coach therapy and stuff like that? I'm
S1: not sure if I'm doing that right. You have a
S1: life coach you. Open to therapy, because a lot of
S1: men out there still see or perceive therapy and counselling
S1: is something of a weakness, you know?
S2: Yeah, I mean, I see all these ads advocating getting
S2: help for mental health and all that, which is really
S2: nice to see. Yeah, I think that's good. I think
S2: that with the rise of feminism as well and definitely helps.
S2: Just though you're talking about the female bathroom, right? Yeah.
S2: Now everyone's really back there.
S1: OK.
S2: Unfortunately, men aren't very good at getting help and advice
S2: even from other men, even from their own friends.
S1: I agree with that. You continue first.
S2: I kind of grew up living vicariously through my friends,
S2: and I would want to always get that advice and
S2: opinions and always observe what they're doing and how you
S2: know how they're doing it and try to learn from
S2: from what they're doing. Even until now, it's not very
S2: easy to sit down and go, Guys, I'm going through this. Yeah,
S2: I need some help. Yeah, it's
S1: OK.
S2: I mean, for me, I'm a bit more open, but
S2: I know a lot of guys who would rather just
S2: like help themselves. Yeah. And I don't really know where
S2: that comes from or why. Maybe because the of the
S2: belief that no matter what my friends see, it's my
S2: life and these are my experiences and my thoughts. And
S2: this is why I am. So there's no point looking elsewhere.
S2: I would rather look inward, which is not a good,
S2: which is not a bad way of looking at it.
S2: I think that
S1: sometimes you kind of internalize everything.
S2: Yeah, yeah. Because sometimes your judgment is clouded by your
S2: own cognitive biases, your own experiences, your own emotions. When
S2: you're very close to the situation, you can't really see
S2: it for what it is. So that's unfortunate. And I think,
S2: most importantly, is just having that avenue to reinvent yourself.
S1: And yeah, it's healthy.
S2: I've seen this thing where people, when people are venting right,
S2: the first question you ask is, are we here to
S2: look for solutions? Or we had to vent which. So
S2: I sold out on Facebook and I say, Wow, that's
S2: a really good way of approaching things.
S1: It's true because sometimes all you want is an outlet.
S1: And I have to say this because sometimes when my
S1: partner and I fight for it, he will go off
S1: with himself and just sort of process it or whatever.
S1: And the first thing that I do is call my
S1: girlfriends like the person who's texting the group chat, Oh
S1: my god, guys, this happened in like voice. No. Yeah.
S1: And say, Let's see the fight. It's like, very bad.
S1: And maybe, perhaps we don't really talk to each other
S1: for a couple of days, or we want to take
S1: some time out and not get into any more fights
S1: or abrasive conversations anymore. I can spend the next two
S1: or three days confiding in three separate group of friends.
S1: Our producer is laughing right now because she knows it's true.
S1: And then when I ask you when we finally, you know,
S1: come together and say, Look, when you discuss, you know,
S1: let's let's let's lay it out and resolve this a bit.
S1: So did you share with your friends? And he's like, No, no,
S1: what do you mean? You didn't show a single person?
S1: I literally share with my entire social life. He was like, What?
S1: He's so cute. I mean, as as far as it goes,
S1: you might just share with the one guy friend that
S1: he trusts or talks and even saw it end in
S1: 30 minutes. And like I said, I went all day.
S1: I was six hours talking about the same thing.
S2: I have definitely noticed. It's that women will always tell
S2: their friends will always tell their friends, will always and
S2: not just one social circle. You need to, you know,
S2: get it out there.
S1: Yeah. And it's like a brand new story every time,
S1: you know?
S2: So I don't know if that's a very good idea,
S2: because if it's if it's a couple of fight and
S2: you're letting the whole world
S1: know you wanted to keep it between is a personal problem.
S2: Yeah, because what happens is when the fight is over,
S2: you may forgive this person, but your friends may not
S2: necessarily have forgiven. May not have agreed if your decision
S2: to forgive.
S1: Maybe see see your partner in a different way.
S2: Oh, see your friend spotted them differently.
S1: Yeah, that's what I meant. Yeah, yeah.
S2: So then what happens is it can have a negative
S2: impact on the relationship because the next time you guys fight,
S2: and if you were to tell this friend again, this
S2: friend is already has already has a bias. Yeah, yeah.
S2: And this the thing about confiding in friends. Your friends
S2: will always have a bias.
S1: Yeah. And you'll always be on your side regardless. Well,
S1: most of the time,
S2: most of the time or relative may be more empathetic. Yes.
S1: Yeah. So I think, you know, we've covered quite a
S1: wide variety of examples, stories, experiences, everything. Let's wrap it
S1: up with this question for you. Why do you think
S1: masculinity is so important to most men, and is this
S1: something that needs to change?
S2: I think I think it stems from insecurity. I think
S2: that people. Find it easier to fall into norms and
S2: rules that have been around for a long time. It's
S2: easier to do that and go like, OK, this is
S2: what it means. It's a very textbook answer. I'm going
S2: to work to become this. Yeah, I'm not going to
S2: be the sole breadwinner,
S1: you know, by the house. Do this, do that
S2: like this is what it means to be a man.
S2: I'm going to work to become this person rather than
S2: look inward and become who I am and be OK
S2: with that
S1: and embrace it.
S2: Yeah, because I mean, to me, ultimately being a man
S2: is integrity. It's doing the right thing, even in the
S2: face of adversity, adversity. And that's not gender specific.
S1: I know. And you know, I feel like the ideal
S1: and I guess in a way when you are looking
S1: for the ideal partner or in my case, I do,
S1: man and all that right. I think to me is
S1: not so much of like all like how well you
S1: take care of your physique. And it's more do you
S1: take care of me as a partner? Are you consider it?
S1: Are you conscientious? You know you are. You also someone
S1: who wants to keep your mental and physical health in check?
S1: I think that's also important taking care of yourself. And
S1: then in turn, taking care of your partner. It's an ecosystem, right? Like,
S1: everything sort of is like a well-oiled machine. Yeah, one
S1: is doing good and so on. Yeah.
S2: Yeah, because you impact your partner that way. And if
S2: your partner maybe doesn't struggles, if if self-care, then you
S2: can impact that knowledge. Yes, but ultimately just falling into
S2: a norm because it's the norm without questioning it and
S2: changing yourself to suit this norm, suppressing yourself or trying
S2: to be something you're not. It's not sustainable. You can't like.
S2: That's why. So suicide rates for men are very high.
S2: Depression rates are very high or higher than women. And
S2: there's a reason for that because I feel like women
S2: are a lot more likely to express themselves, whereas men
S2: are like, No, it's not. The many thing to do
S2: is the man's role to which is, I got this
S2: not sustainable at all.
S1: Yeah, no, I totally agree. So I think to wrap
S1: this up nicely, you know, it is important for you
S1: to be in touch with your emotions, your feelings to
S1: also realize that it's OK to ask for help. It
S1: doesn't matter if you're a guy or whatever, it doesn't matter.
S1: I think it's just so important to do some introspection,
S1: reflection as well and realize that it's OK to even
S1: go for therapy. I think that's something that is such
S1: a big conversation. Ariana Grundy is doing like $2 billion
S1: worth of giveaways with better health now. It's not wrong.
S1: So she's encouraging people to also seek help. Go for therapy,
S1: talk about your, your feelings and your problems.
S2: Actually unknown, right? Yeah. Being vulnerable to strangers, you know, friends,
S2: because sometimes it's the hardest to be vulnerable to your
S2: own family members, closest friends.
S1: That is the hardest thing to do.
S2: Yeah, that takes courage. I mean, I don't know about
S2: you guys, but I feel like courage is a very masculine. Yeah.
S2: You know,
S1: call pretty sexy.
S2: Yeah, exactly.
S1: Food. Yeah, I totally agree. Thank you so much for
S1: being with us. Thank you. I had a great conversation
S1: with you. I mean, this is an interesting first meeting topic.
S1: You know, usually would be like, you know, how are you?
S1: What's your favorite color? But that's very flattering, actually. Was
S1: that something I never I never ask someone for their
S1: favorite color? You know, I think the next episode will
S1: be how to flirt. Yes. Thank you so much for
S1: listening to this episode of Men Explain. If you like
S1: what you heard, please hit the follow button. We're available
S1: on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Also, please follow us at
S1: its Clarity Echo and Instagram and Facebook for more content
S1: like this. We'll see you next time.