Speaker 1: Hi everyone and welcome back to the Building Financial Fitness podcast.
Speaker 1: Today we have a special and I believe evergreen topic
Speaker 1: which is mindfulness in personal finance.
Speaker 1: And we have a guest today, um Stanley, thank you.
Speaker 1: First of all for joining us. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: So Stanley is the founder of the Mindful Circle, and
Speaker 1: I also wanted to give the audience a little bit
Speaker 1: of context of your history, what got you into mindfulness
Speaker 1: and why you've built Mindful Circle. So maybe let's start
Speaker 1: with
Speaker 1: that.
Speaker 2: Well, I started my career in banking, so 15 years
Speaker 2: in banking, hustle and bustle, dealing room, moving as fast
Speaker 2: as you can, getting things done.
Speaker 2: And that was exciting and interesting, but a lot of
Speaker 2: it was thinking work faster, smarter, better.
Speaker 2: And I wanted to do a bit more. So from there,
Speaker 2: I sort of bridged over into coaching and consulting really
Speaker 2: to help people and organizations with thinking, with alignment and
Speaker 2: with developing capabilities as well. That got me sort of
Speaker 2: away from banking into the coaching consulting space, but there's
Speaker 2: still one more thing that felt a bit lacking, which
Speaker 2: was balancing the thinking. So we're very good at critical thinking,
Speaker 2: analytical thinking, quick thinking.
Speaker 2: But we also need to take care of the mind
Speaker 2: a little bit. How do you rest? How do you recover,
Speaker 2: and perhaps also slow down the thinking sometimes to have
Speaker 2: a different type of wisdom. And I went to mindfulness
Speaker 2: for self-care actually and well-being, so it's purely selfish and
Speaker 2: purely sort of uh transactional or sort of practical.
Speaker 2: But what came out of it was quite surprising for me, uh,
Speaker 2: which is the clarity that you get when you notice
Speaker 2: a bit more, when you don't automatically solve the problem
Speaker 2: in your head.
Speaker 2: Not everything in life is a sudoku to be solved.
Speaker 2: And maybe with relationships with loved ones or or colleagues.
Speaker 2: So that sort of opened a new door and that
Speaker 2: got me really excited and so from that I got
Speaker 2: into training in mindfulness, completed a master's in mindfulness and
Speaker 2: sort of moved on into mindful circle.
Speaker 1: I love the commitment that you put into the mindfulness
Speaker 1: space because the level of study that you put into mindfulness,
Speaker 1: not everybody.
Speaker 1: actually goes to the extent of that, even though mindfulness
Speaker 1: is often a word that's tossed around in various circles,
Speaker 1: mindfulness is obviously related to mental health, they are advocating
Speaker 1: more mindfulness in the workspace. And today I want to
Speaker 1: talk about mindfulness and personal finance because managing your own finances,
Speaker 1: you can imagine there's a whole bunch of emotions that's
Speaker 1: related to it, even for managing family finances. A lot
Speaker 1: of family arguments actually are based on money issues.
Speaker 1: Hm. So I wanted to get your perspective of how
Speaker 1: do we practice mindfulness in the realm of managing our
Speaker 1: own money, our own investment portfolio because you came from
Speaker 1: that world.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I have a better than average answer,
Speaker 2: but certainly some insights. I think what you said about
Speaker 2: finances being emotional is a really important starting point. So
Speaker 2: just acknowledging and recognizing that money has this psychological and
Speaker 2: emotional weight to it.
Speaker 2: Before I did the master's in mindfulness, I did another
Speaker 2: master's in coaching and consulting for change, and my thesis
Speaker 2: was on financial anxiety and how that can drive financial decisions.
Speaker 2: And so a little interview that I was doing with
Speaker 2: for my research was asking people to complete the sentence,
Speaker 2: money is. So someone might say money is freedom or
Speaker 2: money is
Speaker 2: Power, money is status, money is winning, if you like.
Speaker 2: So money is one of these things which you can
Speaker 2: project pretty much anything onto. I think Trump has said
Speaker 2: before a long time ago, before he became president, even
Speaker 2: the first time that without money you can't keep score.
Speaker 2: You need money to know who's winning, for example, so
Speaker 2: lots of different psychological frameworks we associate with money. And
Speaker 2: so when it comes to personal finances,
Speaker 2: We just have to be a bit careful and aware
Speaker 2: of what money means to us. So we will talk about,
Speaker 2: let's say spending, for example, there's sometimes a risk of
Speaker 2: overspending on the next shiny thing and that could be because,
Speaker 2: you know, it feels like a necessary treat or maybe
Speaker 2: it expresses I've arrived somewhere in life. Yes. Or maybe
Speaker 2: this underspending because of some sense of wanting to be
Speaker 2: cautious and safe and then we don't spend something that
Speaker 2: we need.
Speaker 2: So recognizing that money has this psychological and emotional pool
Speaker 2: is the starting point of then making a considered decision.
Speaker 2: So mindfulness allows you to kind of pause in that
Speaker 2: moment to be aware of what's happening. So I'll give
Speaker 2: you actually a funny example. So I had an investment
Speaker 2: position in a stock a few years ago and I
Speaker 2: had built that position up over a matter of weeks.
Speaker 2: And it was becoming more and more of a um
Speaker 2: must win feeling, right, because it was complex, it was
Speaker 2: going up and down, it's like it felt like a sudoku,
Speaker 2: a puzzle to
Speaker 2: be solved.
Speaker 1: And how long were you looking to hold this stock?
Speaker 2: Ah, this is a great question. So
Speaker 2: Sometimes what you say and what you do, anyone, including me,
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes there's an action intention gap. So typically
Speaker 2: I would say, you know, buy to hold uh as
Speaker 2: a long term diversified portfolio to have stable returns riding
Speaker 2: up the volatility. That's certainly sensible wisdom. But from time
Speaker 2: to time, you might get involved in a stock, you know,
Speaker 2: you felt that I bought it but it went down,
Speaker 2: that can't be right, you know, why did it happen?
Speaker 2: You take it personally.
Speaker 2: And I said, I'm going to buy a bit more
Speaker 2: because that was wrong somehow. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's also averaging down in
Speaker 2: a way, absolutely. So buying or selling itself is not
Speaker 2: right or wrong, but it's just noticing whether you're beginning
Speaker 2: to do stuff out of an emotional desire to win
Speaker 2: or not lose or to prove yourself right.
Speaker 2: Or you're taking it personally. This dog doesn't like me, right?
Speaker 2: And so I noticed that in myself. So I really
Speaker 2: want to buy some more right now, but let me
Speaker 2: just sit with that for a second and feel that.
Speaker 2: And it was really interesting as I sort of sat
Speaker 2: and sort of felt the emotions coming through the body
Speaker 2: and the mind and thoughts. Another thought came up which
Speaker 2: is actually I want to sell this shit. So I
Speaker 2: sort of sat with that then and said, OK, what's
Speaker 2: happening there? And eventually sort of balances itself out sort
Speaker 2: of quiet.
Speaker 2: And the reality at that moment was actually I was bored.
Speaker 2: I was just wanted, I had an action impulse to
Speaker 2: do something. So coming back to personal finances, whether it's spending, investing, budgeting,
Speaker 2: just beginning to take that moment to lean into whatever
Speaker 2: you're feeling before having to act on it, just gives
Speaker 2: you that extra space for that extra clarity and from
Speaker 2: that hopefully comes the ability to make a choice that
Speaker 2: is more aligned with your long term well-being.
Speaker 2: Not sure if that's
Speaker 2: helpful.
Speaker 1: I think it's extremely helpful. I think that the concept
Speaker 1: where you talked about what money is to you, that
Speaker 1: links very much to everyone's own personal narrative of what
Speaker 1: money is. I think that it changes across generations because
Speaker 1: when we think about our grandparents or parents' time, you know,
Speaker 1: I can imagine for a lot of them, when you
Speaker 1: ask them the question, money could mean survival.
Speaker 1: Money could mean protecting my family, like making sure they
Speaker 1: have the next meal or the lights are on. But
Speaker 1: fast forward to the next few generations, money could be,
Speaker 1: like you said, freedom and then that could then go
Speaker 1: on to the next generation where money status. Money is
Speaker 1: is for me to show the world that I have
Speaker 1: a certain standing in society. And I think we have
Speaker 1: seen that change very quickly for a country like Singapore
Speaker 1: that actually has been managed.
Speaker 1: To prosper economically in a very short amount of time.
Speaker 1: And that's why generationally I think there's a lot of
Speaker 1: differences in terms of personal narratives to money. So I
Speaker 1: think that it's so important to be able to sit
Speaker 1: with those emotions and actually understand why am I actually
Speaker 1: buying this or why am I actually buying, selling this
Speaker 1: stock the way that I am, which is the example
Speaker 1: that you talked about and how can we be more disciplined?
Speaker 1: With sitting with our own emotions and looking inward before
Speaker 1: thinking about how we deal with money. Is there a
Speaker 1: structure or a framework to this?
Speaker 2: For me, what has helped is um practice over time.
Speaker 2: So I think step one, we're dealing with something that's
Speaker 2: very unconscious almost and very deeply ingrained. Our money scripts,
Speaker 2: if you like, you know, the stories we have learned
Speaker 2: growing up that money is X or Y or this
Speaker 2: doing this is good, doing this is not good. Those
Speaker 2: are very deeply ingrained. So having
Speaker 2: A sense of kindness to yourself as you navigate and
Speaker 2: adjust to discover what works. I think that's helpful to start.
Speaker 2: The second thing is really sort of being aware beyond
Speaker 2: just at that moment I want to buy or sell,
Speaker 2: but also look at your intentions as well. So a
Speaker 2: good example, and this is way before I got into
Speaker 2: mindfulness just in banking in general because we will take positions, etc.
Speaker 2: A very helpful discipline, one of my seniors instilled in
Speaker 2: me to say, if you're going to buy something,
Speaker 2: Before you buy that stock, for example, just take note
Speaker 2: of exactly why you're doing it and be clear on
Speaker 2: when you're likely to sell, how long you hold for, etc.
Speaker 2: so that when volatility comes, when the stock goes up
Speaker 2: by 10% or down by 10% in two days, which
Speaker 2: is very surprising because the mind starts kicking and they say, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm such a hero. I got it just before I
Speaker 2: came in, it's up 10%. I'm a genius, and then
Speaker 2: ego comes, other things come, and then you start doing
Speaker 2: something differently from the original plan.
Speaker 2: Uh, or it could be the other way around. It
Speaker 2: falls 10%, you think the world is over, even though
Speaker 2: your investment thesis was sound. So being aware beforehand or
Speaker 2: at the time of purchase can really help you at
Speaker 2: times of volatility or at times when it feels so
Speaker 2: tempting to buy more or sell. So just being aware
Speaker 2: of it in advance. So each time you look at
Speaker 2: your portfolio, that's an
Speaker 2: Opportunity to reaffirm what's important, whether it's up or down,
Speaker 2: how does that feel? And also there's some behavioral finance
Speaker 2: techniques as well you could use. A fun one is, yeah,
Speaker 2: sometimes after a while you hold a position that you
Speaker 2: don't want to hold on to, but you hold on
Speaker 2: to it because maybe it's a loss making one and
Speaker 2: you can't make yourself crystallize that loss, quite a common feeling.
Speaker 2: So a question that we sometimes ask is, imagine that
Speaker 2: you are logged on to your trading account on your desktop.
Speaker 2: And your cat walks across the desk and steps on
Speaker 2: something and sells the share for you. Would you buy
Speaker 2: it back? And if the answer is no, then it's
Speaker 2: interesting because you currently hold it. If your cat sold it,
Speaker 2: you wouldn't buy it back.
Speaker 1: You've actually
Speaker 1: answered a question for yourself.
Speaker 2: So, so these are sort of things that you can
Speaker 2: do just to double check our intentions are aligned with
Speaker 2: what we intended in the beginning.
Speaker 2: And we haven't sort of accidentally rewritten a story or
Speaker 2: intentions because it's very easy to do that in the
Speaker 2: in the haste or in the battle of investing.
Speaker 1: Yes, I think in the realm of investing, what you
Speaker 1: talked about with regards to the investment thesis, I think
Speaker 1: it really links to
Speaker 1: Investment conviction and I think that's something because I started
Speaker 1: on the buy side and every time be public equities
Speaker 1: or you're writing or private capital investment, there needs to
Speaker 1: be that conviction of why one buys into a position
Speaker 1: and that actually takes a fairly informed approach I feel
Speaker 1: because
Speaker 1: There could be an insight that we have that may
Speaker 1: be that you feel that the market is not seeing,
Speaker 1: and that allows you to weather the ups and downs
Speaker 1: of the stock movements because as long as that investment
Speaker 1: thesis slash conviction hasn't changed, there's no reason for you
Speaker 1: to sell just because it goes down. And there's no
Speaker 1: reason for you to be super, super happy or exuberant
Speaker 1: when the stock goes up beyond what you projected. Yes.
Speaker 1: But when we look at individual investors, you know, not
Speaker 1: institutional investors, but people who are, you know, could be
Speaker 1: a mom at home or somebody who is just investing
Speaker 1: for themselves, sometimes it's not easy to have so many
Speaker 1: data points. They're not necessarily, they're not building their own
Speaker 1: financial models, sometimes they're buying stocks based on somebody else's recommendation.
Speaker 1: So how can one actually have that kind of conviction
Speaker 1: on mindfulness when entering or existing positions?
Speaker 2: There's quite a number of different things you have said
Speaker 2: there to unpack that a little bit. So if it
Speaker 2: were a sort of more like household investment, uh retail individual,
Speaker 2: so the amounts may not be as large. It's unlikely
Speaker 2: that we can accumulate uh large positions in one thing.
Speaker 2: So a recommendation would be to firstly diversify so that
Speaker 2: it's a balanced sort of exposure and therefore the volatility
Speaker 2: hopefully gets dampened over time.
Speaker 2: And so it becomes then the discipline of investing whenever
Speaker 2: you can and riding out the volatility along the way.
Speaker 2: So it wouldn't be as ideal to be having large
Speaker 2: positions in a single stock because that would be bringing
Speaker 2: a high risk, high reward, which may not be suitable
Speaker 2: for the long run. I wouldn't say whether it's bringing
Speaker 2: mindfulness or not, I think it's just a question of
Speaker 2: being intentional.
Speaker 2: So if the intention of this investment is, let's say
Speaker 2: long term returns for the family, then we can understand
Speaker 2: the kind of risks we can take and uh go
Speaker 2: on that basis and stick with it. If on the
Speaker 2: other hand, and I do that too, it is more
Speaker 2: more speculative position purely because it feels interesting or you
Speaker 2: just want to know what it's like.
Speaker 2: Then understand how much you can afford to do that
Speaker 2: with that, you know, spend on that and accept that
Speaker 2: that's not an investment, that is not that different from
Speaker 2: buying a lottery or yeah, you know, sort of a
Speaker 2: very speculative position taking. And we're bringing mindfulness in the
Speaker 2: sense of we are being aware that we're going to
Speaker 2: do that. So let me enjoy that. Maybe I can
Speaker 2: sort of contrast that with, let's say,
Speaker 2: Myself and drinking coffee. I drink a lot of coffee.
Speaker 2: It's not great for me and I know that. So
Speaker 2: if I'm going to drink a coffee, let me enjoy
Speaker 2: that coffee. In the same way, if you're going to
Speaker 2: go into Bitcoin because you really, really think it's going
Speaker 2: to triple in the next 3 days, figure out how
Speaker 2: much you can afford to lose, put it in and
Speaker 2: enjoy the ride. I hope you get, you know.
Speaker 2: returns and whatever it is, sort of learn from that experience.
Speaker 1: In
Speaker 1: that example, actually going into it, being comfortable that you
Speaker 1: could lose your principal.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yes, exactly. So knowing that this is not an investment,
Speaker 2: this is like drinking a coffee or having a giant
Speaker 2: pizza because I feel like it, generally it's not great.
Speaker 2: I might love it, I enjoy it.
Speaker 2: So let me lean into that enjoyment and get the
Speaker 2: enjoyment out of
Speaker 2: that.
Speaker 1: One of the first few um investment philosophies I got
Speaker 1: in my first job working in a family office where
Speaker 1: we were basically investing in public equities, the founder of
Speaker 1: the company basically said that whatever you propose, you must
Speaker 1: be comfortable with losing the principal. Why do you think
Speaker 1: that approach is important?
Speaker 2: Well, in a way, it's a very conservative way of
Speaker 2: looking at things, so at least you know, in a
Speaker 2: worst case scenario, where will I be?
Speaker 2: So by doing that, you don't take on too much
Speaker 2: risk or more risk than you can bear, and that's
Speaker 2: particularly suitable for, you know, sometimes with some of the
Speaker 2: um investors, there might be this philosophy of what I
Speaker 2: call a 4D plus FD plus 4D, put my money
Speaker 2: in something that's super safe and then I'll gamble on
Speaker 2: something my friend told me is amazing. And if you're
Speaker 2: going to do that, then you must make sure that
Speaker 2: the high risk item is something you're willing to to
Speaker 2: lose completely. That's one way of doing things, of course.
Speaker 2: There is also a more diversified approach, but you don't
Speaker 2: necessarily have to imagine that everything will fall to zero.
Speaker 2: Imagine all the shares in Singapore, the blue chips, DBS, Singtel, etc.
Speaker 2: to say that they will all go to zero. I mean,
Speaker 2: that would be a very conservative assumption. So I wouldn't
Speaker 2: say you always have to assume you're going to lose everything,
Speaker 2: but when you're going beyond traditional investments, uh, beyond diversity.
Speaker 2: portfolio that safely managed, it is definitely prudent to assume
Speaker 2: you might potentially lose all of it in a terrible scenario.
Speaker 1: I love that we captured the part of mindfulness in
Speaker 1: investing because I feel that that's not often talked about,
Speaker 1: you know, in a very practical way. I think you
Speaker 1: raise a lot of like good, you know, personal examples
Speaker 1: of how that actually works for you. How about mindfulness
Speaker 1: when it comes to your
Speaker 1: The other part, which is the spending part of things.
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 2: think that's even more relevant because you know, we're making
Speaker 2: spending decisions all the time, yeah, day in, day out, exactly,
Speaker 2: and we may end up consuming more than we intended to,
Speaker 2: you know, choosing where you go on holiday, for example,
Speaker 2: what we have for meals. So when it comes to
Speaker 2: the spending, I would say mindfulness is also highly relevant.
Speaker 2: I think there's many contexts, but two that I can
Speaker 2: point out now, right. The first one is in the moment,
Speaker 2: so the impulse buys and sometimes, I mean it happens
Speaker 2: to me all the time, right, that I end up
Speaker 2: the day and I go, I'm not quite sure why
Speaker 2: I bought that item or I go to a shop
Speaker 2: intending to buy 3 things and then I buy 5 things.
Speaker 2: Where did those two things come from? And so very
Speaker 2: often when we are, you know, working at speed, sometimes
Speaker 2: we want to get things done, we can do things
Speaker 2: automatically and maybe something, you know, uh looks like a
Speaker 2: good deal and we end up buying a little bit
Speaker 2: more than we needed to. So, in the day to day,
Speaker 2: in the moment spending, uh mindfulness, similar to what I
Speaker 2: was saying earlier about holding the shares, just getting that
Speaker 2: sense of, oh, I feel this impulse to buy more.
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean you shouldn't buy, but noticing the impulse means
Speaker 2: that you're going to pause the auto buying, right? Or
Speaker 2: maybe the other way around, you see something you really
Speaker 2: need and a part of you says just keep walking. So,
Speaker 2: I wonder why I have this urge to keep walking.
Speaker 2: Let me just stop for a second and just, just,
Speaker 2: just breathe and have a look at the item and
Speaker 2: maybe it's something I need.
Speaker 2: Um, so that's of conscious consumption if you like, or purchases.
Speaker 2: I think in the bigger picture, just being clear in
Speaker 2: our minds about the sort of 5, 10 year, 20
Speaker 2: year views.
Speaker 2: Maybe right now we're in the accumulation phase of our
Speaker 2: lives and therefore, even if it's fifty-fifty, I'd rather not
Speaker 2: spend because there is a longer term vision or goal
Speaker 2: that's important to me. So I think mindfulness allows us
Speaker 2: to sit and be clear about the long term as well,
Speaker 2: so that when it comes to the short term, we
Speaker 2: can make those decisions with a little bit of a
Speaker 2: North Star as well.
Speaker 1: Yes, I believe that it is also about balance because
Speaker 1: you can look at both ends of the spectrum. There
Speaker 1: are some people who are very FOMO and like FOMO, YOLO,
Speaker 1: you know, let's go on that fantastic trip to Switzerland
Speaker 1: because you only live once and you need to have
Speaker 1: fun when you're young and that could be a very
Speaker 1: expensive trip. At the other end of the spectrum, you
Speaker 1: have people who scrimp and save and don't spend on
Speaker 1: a single thing until the end of their lives and
Speaker 1: sometimes they never got to enjoy.
Speaker 1: Everything that they accumulated in their lifetimes. So we are
Speaker 1: looking at two ends of the spectrum. So I think
Speaker 1: that balance is important, that balance is very different for
Speaker 1: everyone because different people ascribe different value to different things.
Speaker 1: So it's important to identify what are things that are
Speaker 1: important for ourselves personally. So let's say if you know
Speaker 1: I value good health then that someone in that household
Speaker 1: would have no qualms about.
Speaker 1: You know, spending more on higher quality food, even though
Speaker 1: it costs more, but you know for them because it's
Speaker 1: part of their value system, then that makes sense and
Speaker 1: you're not kind of like putting your enjoyment into the
Speaker 1: future because that's something that you're doing on a day
Speaker 1: to day basis or when somebody is buying luxury items,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes people could easily fault them and said, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, these are unnecessary things, but if it truly
Speaker 1: truly gives them joy, unbridled joy.
Speaker 1: Then, and if they know that clearly for themselves, then
Speaker 1: who are we to question?
Speaker 2: Absolutely right. So, having the clarity and intentionality to make
Speaker 2: that choice that aligns with what's important to you, whether
Speaker 2: it's health or enjoying that item, I want to go
Speaker 2: further as well after the decision is made to then
Speaker 2: really embrace that decision. If I've decided to buy this
Speaker 2: luxury item to treat myself with this item, let me
Speaker 2: then allow myself to experience it and enjoy it. Uh,
Speaker 2: sometimes it's a little bit sad that
Speaker 2: Let's say in a in a family going on a vacation, uh,
Speaker 2: maybe dad and mom have slightly different objectives. There is
Speaker 2: a discussion, animated, energetic discussion, and we agree on something.
Speaker 2: But the person who, let's say one wants to go for,
Speaker 2: you know, an experience for for young children, etc. that
Speaker 2: decision is made to go for the experience, but then
Speaker 2: when going for it, because you feel a bit bad
Speaker 2: that I pushed so hard for this, maybe I should,
Speaker 2: I shouldn't.
Speaker 2: Ask for so much more but then maybe we should
Speaker 2: also lean into something else. And what ends up happening
Speaker 2: is kind of accidentally dilute the experience, which is a shame. So,
Speaker 2: you know, all our decisions when we have made them,
Speaker 2: I think, uh, without being apologetic, just really being sincere
Speaker 2: and fully immersed and engaged with whatever the choice is,
Speaker 2: I think can bring so much joy to the experience
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: I agree with that. I think that what you said
Speaker 1: about thinking about that purchase decision on hindsight and kind
Speaker 1: of constantly checking in with yourself is important because sometimes
Speaker 1: it could be buying, it doesn't need to be luxury items,
Speaker 1: but I think many people can identify with.
Speaker 1: Looking at a pile of things at home and wondering
Speaker 1: why did I buy that and when did I even
Speaker 1: buy that and like did I actually get utility from it.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it would be like you said, impulses, being able
Speaker 1: to recognize those, I think it's important. Being able to
Speaker 1: see if
Speaker 1: We're buying things to impress others or actually for ourselves?
Speaker 1: Because the utility from doing the former I find often
Speaker 1: is actually not very
Speaker 1: high.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so extrinsic uh validation rather than self intrinsic motivation. Exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and and it's also very unstable. Things that are sort
Speaker 2: of more aligned with deeper values or deeper needs allowed
Speaker 2: in a very natural and organ.
Speaker 2: Organic way tends to be healthier and more wholesome, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yes, and that requires inward looking time spent looking inwards
Speaker 1: and understanding yourself, which doesn't come immediately. I think that
Speaker 1: takes work, which is why I'm very glad that you
Speaker 1: started the mindful circle. For listeners who you know are
Speaker 1: interested in the work that you're doing with the Mindful circle,
Speaker 1: where can they find
Speaker 1: you?
Speaker 2: We are online, so you can easily find us in mindfulcircle.
Speaker 2: Dot org, org. And what's unusual about what we do
Speaker 2: is we want to be really accessible. So we have
Speaker 2: sessions that are free or even the longer courses, you
Speaker 2: can pay as you like as well, including pay nothing.
Speaker 2: So the goal is really to make this available to
Speaker 2: the broader community. Yes,
Speaker 1: and I appreciate that you do that for like the
Speaker 1: nonprofits or you know, the marginalized communities in Singapore. So
Speaker 1: thank you for that.
Speaker 2: We try to do our best.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Stanley for being on.
Speaker 1: Many thanks as well to all of you out there
Speaker 1: for tuning in. This has been a fantastic conversation and
Speaker 1: we would definitely love to hear what you think about it.
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us,
Speaker 1: you can reach out to us through the email podcast
Speaker 1: at melisten.sg or at my Instagram at misfitie. Aside from that,
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Speaker 1: Episode production is done by Junes Yu with editing and
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Speaker 1: your host and BFF Junes Yu. Until the next time.