Speaker 1: the following is a CNN a podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Jamie Hill and this is the climate conversations I'm
Speaker 1: talking about data today. It's in everything that we do
Speaker 1: online is the lifeblood of this hyper connected world, from
Speaker 1: streaming a video, replying to an email or making an
Speaker 1: online purchase, rely on data centers the process and communicate
Speaker 1: data at lightning speeds. Yet their energy guzzlers, they account
Speaker 1: for about 7% of Singapore's total electricity consumption in 2020.
Speaker 1: After the pandemic and hybrid working accelerated the shift online
Speaker 1: As 5G and artificial intelligence become the norm. Data storage
Speaker 1: facilities will only become a more significant source of carbon emissions.
Speaker 1: The International Energy Agency estimates they use about 1% of
Speaker 1: the world's it actually city currently, but that figure could
Speaker 1: hit double digits by 2030 with this decade hailed as
Speaker 1: a decisive one for climate action. Can data centers rise
Speaker 1: to the challenge of carbon neutrality?
Speaker 1: How are countries balancing the lucrative opportunity of building more
Speaker 1: but also managing their large electricity footprint?
Speaker 1: What does an eco friendly sustainable data center look like
Speaker 1: and how much of it will be a reality
Speaker 1: here with us to talk through This is Darren Webb
Speaker 1: co founder and Ceo of Evolution Data centers which specializes
Speaker 1: in sustainable data infrastructure. Darren. Hi, thanks for being here.
Speaker 2: Hi, Jamie Pleasure.
Speaker 1: Let's start with the details. Okay there and give our
Speaker 1: listeners and me a quick overview of how a data
Speaker 1: center works. What makes it so energy intensive and it's
Speaker 1: not just electricity. Right as far as resources go. It's
Speaker 1: a big guzzler,
Speaker 2: absolutely genuine. These data centers have scaled exponentially over the
Speaker 2: last five years from sites that were probably around a
Speaker 2: couple of megawatts up to now in Singapore, we see
Speaker 2: facebook over 100 and 40 megawatts. So the scale has
Speaker 2: been exponential and therefore the amount of power being used
Speaker 2: obviously gone up by the same amount. Now what I
Speaker 2: would say you have to look at efficiency as well.
Speaker 2: So you have one data center at 40 or 50
Speaker 2: megawatts say, which is reasonably standard size. Now that would
Speaker 2: be much more efficient at five megawatts while they are
Speaker 2: huge users of power and water, they are more efficient
Speaker 2: than they used to be.
Speaker 2: And we also have to remember and be really clear
Speaker 2: as consumers that we are. In fact the consumers of
Speaker 2: those data centers, we may not be the direct customers
Speaker 2: such as the cloud operators, but with the customers of
Speaker 2: the cloud operators,
Speaker 2: of the e commerce, of the banking. So we're ultimately
Speaker 2: people driving the consumption and the need for data centers.
Speaker 2: That's the fact that needs to be clear to everyone.
Speaker 1: The thing about data centers is this, we are all consumers,
Speaker 1: but no one really sees it. But it's big business. Right?
Speaker 1: I mean even here in the ASIA pacific it said
Speaker 1: that the region's market is worth about $28 billion. It
Speaker 1: will be in 2020 for overtaking north America to be
Speaker 1: the largest in the world
Speaker 1: at least here in ASIA Then explain how the sector evolved,
Speaker 1: what made AsIA so competitive that people wanted to put
Speaker 1: their data centers here.
Speaker 2: That's a great question. There's a number of factors to
Speaker 2: answer that. You can
Speaker 2: look at it from a population point of view, from
Speaker 2: a technological point of view. I try and cover up
Speaker 2: a couple of points when you're looking at a time
Speaker 2: sensitive applications. So voice is obviously one video is clearly won.
Speaker 2: The providers of those applications or the cloud services wants
Speaker 2: to be close to the customers because that reduces the
Speaker 2: latest
Speaker 2: it provides a better service, better customer experience by being closer.
Speaker 2: So more and more of the cloud companies and a
Speaker 2: host and a video companies and the content companies want
Speaker 2: to be closer to their customers. So that drives the
Speaker 2: requirement to move from what was previously a kind of
Speaker 2: hub and spoke design. So you had a big data
Speaker 2: center hubs in Singapore and Hong kong as the example
Speaker 2: serving lots of parts of Asia.
Speaker 2: Now, a lot of those companies want to go to
Speaker 2: the less mature markets and provide that in country experience
Speaker 2: but also combines that there's obviously regulation. So we have
Speaker 2: this
Speaker 2: data sovereignty challenge in the data center world where governments
Speaker 2: rightly say that certain data cannot leave the country particularly
Speaker 2: financial data
Speaker 2: to comply to those regulations
Speaker 2: the cloud companies have to host in the country. So
Speaker 2: there's a mixture of
Speaker 2: wanting to deliver a better customer experience, wanting to be
Speaker 2: closer to their customers, wanting to obviously achieve more revenue
Speaker 2: because as you can provide more services in country that's
Speaker 2: more revenue. But also making sure you can comply with
Speaker 2: any regulation, particularly data looking
Speaker 1: at Singapore. Then we are one of the most sought
Speaker 1: after places to set up data centers after places like
Speaker 1: Norway and Iceland.
Speaker 1: What makes us stand out specifically or basically one country
Speaker 1: versus another is it all just about market as you said,
Speaker 2: Singapore is and will remain a major hub for data
Speaker 2: centers and that's not because we have a large consumer
Speaker 2: population concealing dope. It's because of a number of factors.
Speaker 2: If you look at from a geographical point of view,
Speaker 2: it's very well positioned, has a number of the subsidy
Speaker 2: cable systems coming in so it's very well connected.
Speaker 2: It's also very stable both from a government point of
Speaker 2: view and again from a geological point of view, we
Speaker 2: don't have the challenges of volcanoes and fault lines that
Speaker 2: some of our neighboring countries do. So it's considered a
Speaker 2: stable safe places to start business and it's extremely well connected.
Speaker 2: So that's why Singapore is and will remain a very
Speaker 2: strong hub for Asia
Speaker 2: Hong kong is very similar in many ways obviously question mark,
Speaker 2: the stability from a political point of view and you
Speaker 2: can see a trend to move some capacity from Hong
Speaker 2: kong to Singapore. But both will remain
Speaker 1: if Singapore has put a moratorium on new data centers,
Speaker 1: where do we go from here, then I suppose it
Speaker 1: means no more new ones for sure.
Speaker 1: But if there are energy savings, if their technologies to
Speaker 1: be had out there, do you think there's still room
Speaker 1: for growth in terms of the actual physical data centers?
Speaker 2: There's a little bit of a paradox of an answer
Speaker 2: because on one hand, we also have a land challenge
Speaker 2: in Singapore and a power challenge. Right? These facilities can
Speaker 2: take up a fair bit of space and you have
Speaker 2: to consider
Speaker 2: in a land constrained environment whether that's the best use
Speaker 2: of space and of course that's something that the government
Speaker 2: agencies will consider. But also the power Singapore as a
Speaker 2: challenge to. It doesn't have access to renewable energy at
Speaker 2: scale that there's been some developments to look at floating
Speaker 2: data centers and that's great. But they can't support
Speaker 2: 40 50 megawatt data centers. The maps just don't make sense.
Speaker 2: They just can't generate enough power as an intimate and
Speaker 2: power supply. So Singapore does have a challenge because on
Speaker 2: one hand, it wants to retain its hub spaces. On
Speaker 2: the other hand, as you said, there's a moratorium that's
Speaker 2: been in place for two years. Pretty much there's some
Speaker 2: talk about what will happen next year. Will one or
Speaker 2: more sites become available? That's likely that we'll probably see
Speaker 2: one or two more. But certainly we won't see the
Speaker 2: type type of deployment that we've seen in the previous
Speaker 2: years before the moratorium. So it'll be interesting to see
Speaker 2: if Singapore can maintain, maintain that status. The reality is jaime,
Speaker 2: the need for data to drive the data, the data
Speaker 2: generation is not flowing and will not flow. You know,
Speaker 2: if I give you a bit of basic analysis that
Speaker 2: proves the point.
Speaker 2: If you look at someone like the Philippines, 110 million people,
Speaker 2: 30 million of which aren't on smartphones yet, you can
Speaker 2: just imagine as anyone hits the smartphones the first time,
Speaker 2: what do they do? They download? Netflix. HD
Speaker 2: e banking, e commerce, the data is not going to stop.
Speaker 2: So data centers are needed to fulfill that requirement. Singapore
Speaker 2: be interesting to see how they maintain the need to
Speaker 2: maintain the hub status. But with the moratorium will operators
Speaker 2: find new homes for data and we're already seeing that
Speaker 2: a little bit in J. B and in batam in Indonesia.
Speaker 2: And we're already seeing trends to deploy out in Thailand
Speaker 2: Philippines is going to be the next big market I suspect.
Speaker 2: So it's definitely going to be under a challenge. I
Speaker 2: think that spaces over the next couple of years,
Speaker 1: the sort of story of the data center really reminds
Speaker 1: me of just about any other energy intensive industry here
Speaker 1: in Singapore, whether it's pet camps, whether it's electricity generation
Speaker 1: in that sounds as if there's only so much more
Speaker 1: that Singapore can do as you say, given all the constraints.
Speaker 1: But it is an industry that is, there is growing
Speaker 1: and we need to sort of grow on that.
Speaker 1: But do you think at least as far as Singapore
Speaker 1: sponsored and overall technology is concerned there's room to grow
Speaker 1: and this we are going to my next question for
Speaker 1: you in sort of developing the technologies for green or
Speaker 1: green data centers, how they're constructed, how they are powered,
Speaker 1: how they operate. I'm sure that's something that must be
Speaker 1: something
Speaker 1: on the radar for everybody as far as sustainability goals.
Speaker 1: Is there something that Singapore can lead on? You think?
Speaker 2: I really hope so. In fact, the business that I
Speaker 2: co founded evolution is somewhat predicated on that principle, which
Speaker 2: is that Singapore will, even if it can't deploy more
Speaker 2: data centers will take a lead in deploying technology and
Speaker 2: operating processes which drive greener data centers
Speaker 2: in our neighboring country. So for the overall benefits of
Speaker 2: as you can and if you look at what came
Speaker 2: out of cop 26 clearly that the market's kind of
Speaker 2: combined into one degree to say, okay, what can we
Speaker 2: do as a combined region. And my answer is from Singapore,
Speaker 2: be the fourth leader, be the one that says there
Speaker 2: is technology that's happening in the rest of the world
Speaker 2: that we can deploy in Singapore in the surrounding countries
Speaker 2: and there's new technology has come along that we all
Speaker 2: play a part of allowing our neighbors access to share
Speaker 2: that learning, there's a huge opportunity to Singapore to take
Speaker 2: that fort leadership position on behalf of Asia. And so
Speaker 2: that gets around a little bit. What do we do
Speaker 2: as a hub where we're not just the hub for
Speaker 2: the existing data centers, but we're taking a leadership position
Speaker 2: on on how to build greener data centers
Speaker 2: across the region.
Speaker 2: But I'm always clear just as a byline,
Speaker 2: we don't say green data centers, you know, the reality
Speaker 2: is there's no such thing as a green data center
Speaker 2: and once the industry acknowledges that I think it becomes
Speaker 2: a lot easier to tackle the challenges that we have
Speaker 2: as an industry ahead of us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you said green er rather than green,
Speaker 1: I caught myself there as well. But in terms of
Speaker 1: the actual technologies, where do you think the most sort
Speaker 1: of low hanging food might be, is it in cooling,
Speaker 1: can cooling be done more efficiently? Is it in emissions?
Speaker 1: Is it in the use of water as well? And
Speaker 1: water as well? I mean, the production of water at
Speaker 1: least two emissions too? I would imagine. So where do
Speaker 1: you think the most promising technologies, like
Speaker 2: the answers we need to look at every aspect
Speaker 2: of design,
Speaker 2: build and operate and you've touched on some so calling
Speaker 2: hydrogen to remove the diesel Genset, how we use our
Speaker 2: excess heat in a circular economy type of way that
Speaker 2: the challenge there being in a hot region rather than
Speaker 2: coal region. So it's easier to find ways to offset
Speaker 2: your heat in colder countries.
Speaker 2: But for me and for evolution
Speaker 2: actually, we think renewable energy is clearly the biggest ticket items.
Speaker 2: We're looking at green cement to be used in our
Speaker 2: first deployment of the example. And that's great. And we
Speaker 2: would absolutely do it. But it doesn't move the needle massively.
Speaker 2: Something like using renewable energy clearly does. Because if we
Speaker 2: can use a source that is no longer using coal,
Speaker 2: then that really is
Speaker 2: making a material difference. So whilst we look at every
Speaker 2: aspect and you mentioned some of them very well for us,
Speaker 2: we've got to move as an industry to using renewable energy.
Speaker 2: And to be absolutely clear, I'm not talking about using
Speaker 2: carbon credits where an operator here in ASia has purchased
Speaker 2: carbon credits in the U. S. Probably at a very
Speaker 2: low rate and is offsetting them against usage against their admittance.
Speaker 2: In ASia. For me that's greenwashing, there's another word for it.
Speaker 2: It doesn't drive any value to the region in which
Speaker 2: you're admitting that's not a sustainable and it was okay
Speaker 2: as a sticking plaster, the stick and faster needs to
Speaker 2: be ripped off as an industry. We need to move
Speaker 2: too much more aggressive forms of using renewable energy and
Speaker 2: we need to get much quicker
Speaker 2: and we need to do it as a combined industry
Speaker 2: rather than just one or two people.
Speaker 2: I'm
Speaker 1: going to jump on your last comment and ask you
Speaker 1: as well your take on whether the industry as a whole,
Speaker 1: the data center operators do recognize that they have a
Speaker 1: huge role to play because we know in, in countries
Speaker 1: like Singapore data centers do take up a huge percentage
Speaker 1: of electricity. I'm sure it's the same elsewhere.
Speaker 1: Do they recognize this as a whole? Is there sort
Speaker 1: of a general awareness? Are the outliers where, you know,
Speaker 1: they really haven't
Speaker 1: admitted to it
Speaker 2: as an industry? We are not acknowledging and we have
Speaker 2: a problem. We have a challenge to move to greener
Speaker 2: data fences.
Speaker 2: There's lots of people with their heads in the fan.
Speaker 2: There's lots of operators that believe that statements on websites
Speaker 2: are really delivering value in real life and they're not,
Speaker 2: you know, people suggesting that they're 100% renewable. They use 100%
Speaker 2: renewable power in Singapore in the data center Jamie. They're
Speaker 2: not and they can't be because we don't have that
Speaker 2: much renewable power. That tells me there's a huge greenwashing
Speaker 2: issue in the industry. I would say it's more prevalent
Speaker 2: in Asia. Unfortunately, we're definitely lagging behind in terms of
Speaker 2: the use of technology to start amending that,
Speaker 2: that we've seen in parts of europe and Asia, but
Speaker 2: until we recognize there's an issue until we take our
Speaker 2: head out of the sand
Speaker 2: until we start understanding that we've got to walk the
Speaker 2: walk as well as talk talk, we're not going to
Speaker 2: progress as an industry and what that leads to is
Speaker 2: both frustration from our customers who have made very public
Speaker 2: commitments about their own
Speaker 2: Carbon neutral commitments, whether it's 2030 or whatever it may
Speaker 2: be or we actually leave ourselves open to regulation coming
Speaker 2: above us. If we can't self polices and industry, then
Speaker 2: someone's gonna come and police us with governance and laws
Speaker 2: and actually that's the wrong answer.
Speaker 2: We should be mature enough to say what can be done,
Speaker 2: what will we do and let's get on and do
Speaker 2: it rather than start putting it on our website and
Speaker 2: attending at the end of the
Speaker 1: issue. That's, that's an excellent point And it can be
Speaker 1: said about many other industries as well. We'll take a
Speaker 1: quick break and be right back. Climate conversations podcast is
Speaker 1: supported by savannah, jerome building cities shaping lives. I wanted
Speaker 1: to get your take as well as the role of
Speaker 1: consumers as far as we can.
Speaker 1: The problem with consumers as we sort of alluded to
Speaker 1: at the beginning of our conversation is that consumers sometimes
Speaker 1: don't know that their consumer of the services that the
Speaker 1: data center provides, its not as direct between the provider
Speaker 1: and a consumer, correct. But there are all sorts of
Speaker 1: different consumers. You have netflix with the consumer, but you
Speaker 1: have the regular guy on the street was also a consumer.
Speaker 1: Do you think consumers big and small have a role
Speaker 1: to play in knowing the kind of demands that they
Speaker 1: are making an expecting of data centers and what this
Speaker 1: sort of exponential growth in demand will lead to at
Speaker 1: some point in time. Do they have a role in
Speaker 1: efficiencies managing demand, things like that. Both at the individual
Speaker 1: corporate levels.
Speaker 2: The answer is absolutely yes, but there's an education piece there,
Speaker 2: as you said, I don't think people necessarily recognize the
Speaker 2: amount of data they're using, the amount of video calls
Speaker 2: are doing. The amount of streaming they're doing
Speaker 2: creates the need for data and that therefore goes through
Speaker 2: a data center which is using power and utilities including water.
Speaker 2: So there's a little bit of education required. That's not
Speaker 2: to suggest people aren't interested in the education. I just
Speaker 2: don't think it's happened previously. So as consumers and over
Speaker 2: consumption of data, it's the same as
Speaker 2: our need to change our own ways of
Speaker 2: living when it comes to anything else. Like reciting as
Speaker 2: example our own carbon footprint. It's not just data. It
Speaker 2: they can do. And the reality is we've grown up
Speaker 2: in a consumption based environment where we can keep doing
Speaker 2: more and more and more and what we're seeing is
Speaker 2: the utilities the earth can't keep up with our demands.
Speaker 2: So where's the answer? The answer doesn't sit with data centers.
Speaker 2: The answer with our consumers whether it's an individual consumers
Speaker 2: or in the workplace. So turning lights off shutting down
Speaker 2: computers not only having one screen. I'm not saying individually
Speaker 2: that will make a huge difference, but collectively that will
Speaker 2: reduce the power requirements. So we can't sit here as
Speaker 2: consumers as we are right now on an audio call
Speaker 2: complaining about data
Speaker 1: when
Speaker 2: when we're using it. So for me there's a little
Speaker 2: bit of a contradiction but that comes from education or
Speaker 2: the lack of knowledge of how they are a key
Speaker 2: component in individual infrastructure. But yeah, we need to look
Speaker 2: at ourselves and say, do we need three devices going
Speaker 2: at the same time? Do we need
Speaker 2: five smart tv? How many iphones do we actually need?
Speaker 2: And it's not criticism of the product?
Speaker 2: It's a criticism of us as users of the product.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now you make me feel guilty for having someone
Speaker 1: listening to this podcast, uh having his dream, right, But
Speaker 1: here's the question we are living. You know, when we
Speaker 1: talk about five G when we talk about downloading speeds,
Speaker 1: it's always sort of a one sided narrative where, you know,
Speaker 1: if you download a movie and
Speaker 1: 30 seconds, that's quite incontrovertibly a good thing. But yeah,
Speaker 1: as you say, it's not necessarily the full picture. There
Speaker 1: is a large picture to the data that people use
Speaker 1: and electricity as well that comes with it again, Where
Speaker 1: does it start? I feel sometimes too much lands on
Speaker 1: the individual and the individual consumer,
Speaker 1: do you think there will ever be a time where
Speaker 1: the larger players
Speaker 1: do step up and sort of make it clearer to people,
Speaker 1: the implications and consequences of their choices and what they do.
Speaker 2: Yes and no, I think we're seeing certainly the big
Speaker 2: cloud companies Microsoft AWS and Google of the world
Speaker 2: making very big commitment. So we look at Microsoft as
Speaker 2: a brief example. Their commitment is to not have any
Speaker 2: more Diesel Genset
Speaker 2: On their site by 2030. That's a big commitment. And
Speaker 2: it's one that they said as they sold, they will
Speaker 2: allow other operators to see. So that's exactly the kind
Speaker 2: of attitude that we need and thought leadership that we need.
Speaker 2: The others are fulfilling customer demand. So should netflix
Speaker 2: stop streaming. HD
Speaker 2: Well, why would be there question when, when their customers
Speaker 2: are demanding that kind of service. So while there's a demand,
Speaker 2: there will be a supply. I don't think it should
Speaker 2: all be on the consumers. I think there should be
Speaker 2: a two way relationship with operators and content providers.
Speaker 2: Just thinking about the same way Jamie on the side
Speaker 2: of food packaging. Now, you see the amount of calories, right?
Speaker 2: That's based on obesity levels and declining health that consumers
Speaker 2: are now wanting to see the impact of what they're
Speaker 2: eating much more clearly and maybe going forward we'll see
Speaker 2: something similar in terms of content. So
Speaker 2: MR customer if you download this, that'd be using so
Speaker 2: much carbon to do. So, you know, so you can
Speaker 2: maybe see a stage where that happens. So it's a
Speaker 2: two way street. I'm going to tell you what the
Speaker 2: impact is. You as the customers inside, whether that's the
Speaker 2: right thing to do, it will start still a lot
Speaker 2: as a demand. There still will be supplied
Speaker 1: the last question and again, to refocus ourselves Then on Asia,
Speaker 1: as we've said, Asia is going to be increasingly sort
Speaker 1: of the real center of action as far as data
Speaker 1: centers is concerned,
Speaker 1: paying for us in your mind, an ideal situation 10 years,
Speaker 1: 20 years down the road when there's more and more
Speaker 1: data's come up in countries, as you say, like Malaysia Indonesia,
Speaker 1: what would a sustainable ecosystem actually looked like between data
Speaker 1: centers and their energy usage between the relationship between data
Speaker 1: centers and their consumers and between them and governments as well.
Speaker 1: In terms of the regulations, in terms of the new
Speaker 1: policies as well that makes it sustainable. What might it
Speaker 1: look like that we can at least from Singapore's perspective
Speaker 1: and they're pushing the region along. What might that situation
Speaker 1: look like?
Speaker 1: The
Speaker 2: answer is we shouldn't need government regulation. We should be
Speaker 2: mature enough as an industry to police ourselves. So the
Speaker 2: day that the government had to step in to tell
Speaker 2: us what to do is is the day that we've
Speaker 2: really gone wrong. So that's the answer. The Nirvana
Speaker 2: and it's not always possible for good reason. And the
Speaker 2: Nirvana is that every data center is powered by locally
Speaker 2: generated renewable power. Now that is certainly possible in some
Speaker 2: markets where they have placed low power, we'll have no
Speaker 2: land scarcity. But it's not possible where Singapore being a
Speaker 2: prime example,
Speaker 2: but where it is, we should be ensuring that each
Speaker 2: data center is 100% provided by locally generated renewable power,
Speaker 2: not carbon credit. That then means that the need for
Speaker 2: coral reduces not completely goes away because the grid may
Speaker 2: still play a part in transmission, but it will certainly
Speaker 2: reduce the demand for coal investment and that's a good thing.
Speaker 2: And then you look at it as a site. So
Speaker 2: we should be avoiding Greenfield in a sense of virgin land.
Speaker 2: That should really be a last resort. If that's going
Speaker 2: to happen, we should be really looking at an industrial
Speaker 2: existing industrial parts when it's fair lots or building that
Speaker 2: can be resisted. That's much more sustainable than obviously starting
Speaker 2: a new build.
Speaker 2: But we should also be looking to bring in technologies
Speaker 2: and you spoke about some of them earlier. So you
Speaker 2: can only be as greener as the technology allows you
Speaker 2: for that day. But if we recognize it's a constant
Speaker 2: learning curve and we, as operators should build and deploy
Speaker 2: as best we can within the commercial realities that we
Speaker 2: have on that day
Speaker 2: understanding that in a year's time, new technology will come along,
Speaker 2: that would improve the situation. So on our next site,
Speaker 2: let's use the new technologies, we need to keep up
Speaker 2: the technology deployment as it comes to market. What we
Speaker 2: can't do is continue to do the way we've always done.
Speaker 2: That's not a sustainable model. It's not a sustainable construction
Speaker 2: method and we need to both as operators and customers
Speaker 2: Really employees that you know, the latest technology and whether
Speaker 2: it's calling or hydrogen or using renewable power, whatever it
Speaker 2: may be, we need to make a commitment to ourselves
Speaker 2: and to our customers to do that where it's possible
Speaker 2: and where it's commercially viable and if we do that,
Speaker 2: I think we'll be in a much better position in
Speaker 2: the next 5 to 10 years.
Speaker 1: Darren webb. I'm glad we're sort of for these purposes.
Speaker 1: Speaking on a podcast and not on HD video. Thank
Speaker 1: you very much.
Speaker 2: Thank you jane. Thanks for your
Speaker 1: time.
Speaker 1: Thanks Darren and thanks for listening to the climate conversations.
Speaker 1: Stay up to date on CNN's coverage of climate change
Speaker 1: on sienna dot asia. It's all on the orange tab.
Speaker 1: You can also find this and other Sienna podcast on
Speaker 1: our website and on itunes and Spotify, the team behind
Speaker 1: this podcast at Christina robert, lindsey Stirling and Aaron Low.
Speaker 1: I'm Jamie Hall till next week.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm