WEBVTT - What’s your video streaming got to do with climate change? We look at data centres and sustainability | EP 57 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.550 the following is a CNN a podcast. 0:00:03.940 --> 0:00:07.980 I'm Jamie Hill and this is the climate conversations I'm 0:00:07.980 --> 0:00:10.830 talking about data today. It's in everything that we do 0:00:10.830 --> 0:00:14.420 online is the lifeblood of this hyper connected world, from 0:00:14.420 --> 0:00:17.329 streaming a video, replying to an email or making an 0:00:17.329 --> 0:00:21.550 online purchase, rely on data centers the process and communicate 0:00:21.550 --> 0:00:25.510 data at lightning speeds. Yet their energy guzzlers, they account 0:00:25.510 --> 0:00:29.760 for about 7% of Singapore's total electricity consumption in 2020. 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:33.760 After the pandemic and hybrid working accelerated the shift online 0:00:34.140 --> 0:00:37.710 As 5G and artificial intelligence become the norm. Data storage 0:00:37.710 --> 0:00:41.659 facilities will only become a more significant source of carbon emissions. 0:00:41.670 --> 0:00:45.970 The International Energy Agency estimates they use about 1% of 0:00:45.970 --> 0:00:48.790 the world's it actually city currently, but that figure could 0:00:48.790 --> 0:00:52.880 hit double digits by 2030 with this decade hailed as 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:55.800 a decisive one for climate action. Can data centers rise 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:57.750 to the challenge of carbon neutrality? 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.640 How are countries balancing the lucrative opportunity of building more 0:01:01.650 --> 0:01:04.360 but also managing their large electricity footprint? 0:01:04.740 --> 0:01:07.810 What does an eco friendly sustainable data center look like 0:01:07.810 --> 0:01:10.350 and how much of it will be a reality 0:01:10.740 --> 0:01:14.800 here with us to talk through This is Darren Webb 0:01:14.810 --> 0:01:19.339 co founder and Ceo of Evolution Data centers which specializes 0:01:19.340 --> 0:01:23.410 in sustainable data infrastructure. Darren. Hi, thanks for being here. 0:01:23.420 --> 0:01:24.780 Hi, Jamie Pleasure. 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.270 Let's start with the details. Okay there and give our 0:01:28.270 --> 0:01:31.260 listeners and me a quick overview of how a data 0:01:31.260 --> 0:01:34.840 center works. What makes it so energy intensive and it's 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:37.959 not just electricity. Right as far as resources go. It's 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:38.649 a big guzzler, 0:01:39.140 --> 0:01:43.470 absolutely genuine. These data centers have scaled exponentially over the 0:01:43.470 --> 0:01:47.610 last five years from sites that were probably around a 0:01:47.620 --> 0:01:51.690 couple of megawatts up to now in Singapore, we see 0:01:51.700 --> 0:01:55.840 facebook over 100 and 40 megawatts. So the scale has 0:01:55.850 --> 0:01:59.330 been exponential and therefore the amount of power being used 0:01:59.340 --> 0:02:01.460 obviously gone up by the same amount. Now what I 0:02:01.460 --> 0:02:04.390 would say you have to look at efficiency as well. 0:02:04.390 --> 0:02:07.669 So you have one data center at 40 or 50 0:02:07.670 --> 0:02:11.280 megawatts say, which is reasonably standard size. Now that would 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.990 be much more efficient at five megawatts while they are 0:02:13.990 --> 0:02:17.489 huge users of power and water, they are more efficient 0:02:17.490 --> 0:02:18.350 than they used to be. 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:20.859 And we also have to remember and be really clear 0:02:20.860 --> 0:02:23.410 as consumers that we are. In fact the consumers of 0:02:23.410 --> 0:02:26.180 those data centers, we may not be the direct customers 0:02:26.190 --> 0:02:28.680 such as the cloud operators, but with the customers of 0:02:28.690 --> 0:02:29.660 the cloud operators, 0:02:30.139 --> 0:02:33.769 of the e commerce, of the banking. So we're ultimately 0:02:33.780 --> 0:02:37.250 people driving the consumption and the need for data centers. 0:02:37.260 --> 0:02:39.260 That's the fact that needs to be clear to everyone. 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:43.000 The thing about data centers is this, we are all consumers, 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:45.329 but no one really sees it. But it's big business. Right? 0:02:45.330 --> 0:02:47.670 I mean even here in the ASIA pacific it said 0:02:47.669 --> 0:02:51.049 that the region's market is worth about $28 billion. It 0:02:51.050 --> 0:02:54.260 will be in 2020 for overtaking north America to be 0:02:54.260 --> 0:02:55.360 the largest in the world 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.150 at least here in ASIA Then explain how the sector evolved, 0:02:59.150 --> 0:03:02.370 what made AsIA so competitive that people wanted to put 0:03:02.370 --> 0:03:03.880 their data centers here. 0:03:03.889 --> 0:03:06.420 That's a great question. There's a number of factors to 0:03:06.419 --> 0:03:07.750 answer that. You can 0:03:08.139 --> 0:03:11.049 look at it from a population point of view, from 0:03:11.050 --> 0:03:13.359 a technological point of view. I try and cover up 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:15.240 a couple of points when you're looking at a time 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:19.060 sensitive applications. So voice is obviously one video is clearly won. 0:03:19.070 --> 0:03:22.590 The providers of those applications or the cloud services wants 0:03:22.590 --> 0:03:25.150 to be close to the customers because that reduces the 0:03:25.150 --> 0:03:25.580 latest 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:30.160 it provides a better service, better customer experience by being closer. 0:03:30.169 --> 0:03:33.220 So more and more of the cloud companies and a 0:03:33.220 --> 0:03:35.750 host and a video companies and the content companies want 0:03:35.750 --> 0:03:38.010 to be closer to their customers. So that drives the 0:03:38.010 --> 0:03:40.750 requirement to move from what was previously a kind of 0:03:40.750 --> 0:03:43.570 hub and spoke design. So you had a big data 0:03:43.570 --> 0:03:46.070 center hubs in Singapore and Hong kong as the example 0:03:46.070 --> 0:03:47.560 serving lots of parts of Asia. 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:49.570 Now, a lot of those companies want to go to 0:03:49.570 --> 0:03:53.750 the less mature markets and provide that in country experience 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.880 but also combines that there's obviously regulation. So we have 0:03:57.890 --> 0:03:58.160 this 0:03:58.740 --> 0:04:02.350 data sovereignty challenge in the data center world where governments 0:04:02.350 --> 0:04:05.540 rightly say that certain data cannot leave the country particularly 0:04:05.550 --> 0:04:06.450 financial data 0:04:06.940 --> 0:04:08.760 to comply to those regulations 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:12.360 the cloud companies have to host in the country. So 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:13.160 there's a mixture of 0:04:13.540 --> 0:04:16.580 wanting to deliver a better customer experience, wanting to be 0:04:16.580 --> 0:04:19.539 closer to their customers, wanting to obviously achieve more revenue 0:04:19.550 --> 0:04:21.920 because as you can provide more services in country that's 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.980 more revenue. But also making sure you can comply with 0:04:24.990 --> 0:04:27.740 any regulation, particularly data looking 0:04:27.740 --> 0:04:29.950 at Singapore. Then we are one of the most sought 0:04:29.950 --> 0:04:32.960 after places to set up data centers after places like 0:04:32.970 --> 0:04:34.150 Norway and Iceland. 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:38.100 What makes us stand out specifically or basically one country 0:04:38.100 --> 0:04:40.860 versus another is it all just about market as you said, 0:04:40.870 --> 0:04:44.390 Singapore is and will remain a major hub for data 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.390 centers and that's not because we have a large consumer 0:04:47.390 --> 0:04:50.580 population concealing dope. It's because of a number of factors. 0:04:50.589 --> 0:04:52.860 If you look at from a geographical point of view, 0:04:52.940 --> 0:04:55.410 it's very well positioned, has a number of the subsidy 0:04:55.410 --> 0:04:57.560 cable systems coming in so it's very well connected. 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:00.690 It's also very stable both from a government point of 0:05:00.690 --> 0:05:02.440 view and again from a geological point of view, we 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:05.760 don't have the challenges of volcanoes and fault lines that 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:08.590 some of our neighboring countries do. So it's considered a 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:12.529 stable safe places to start business and it's extremely well connected. 0:05:12.540 --> 0:05:16.170 So that's why Singapore is and will remain a very 0:05:16.180 --> 0:05:17.560 strong hub for Asia 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:20.840 Hong kong is very similar in many ways obviously question mark, 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.950 the stability from a political point of view and you 0:05:23.950 --> 0:05:27.130 can see a trend to move some capacity from Hong 0:05:27.130 --> 0:05:29.680 kong to Singapore. But both will remain 0:05:29.690 --> 0:05:33.400 if Singapore has put a moratorium on new data centers, 0:05:33.410 --> 0:05:36.000 where do we go from here, then I suppose it 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:37.660 means no more new ones for sure. 0:05:37.940 --> 0:05:40.730 But if there are energy savings, if their technologies to 0:05:40.730 --> 0:05:42.880 be had out there, do you think there's still room 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:45.650 for growth in terms of the actual physical data centers? 0:05:45.740 --> 0:05:47.710 There's a little bit of a paradox of an answer 0:05:47.710 --> 0:05:50.750 because on one hand, we also have a land challenge 0:05:50.750 --> 0:05:54.180 in Singapore and a power challenge. Right? These facilities can 0:05:54.180 --> 0:05:56.310 take up a fair bit of space and you have 0:05:56.310 --> 0:05:57.049 to consider 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.480 in a land constrained environment whether that's the best use 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.040 of space and of course that's something that the government 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.440 agencies will consider. But also the power Singapore as a 0:06:06.450 --> 0:06:09.179 challenge to. It doesn't have access to renewable energy at 0:06:09.180 --> 0:06:11.700 scale that there's been some developments to look at floating 0:06:11.700 --> 0:06:14.560 data centers and that's great. But they can't support 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:18.110 40 50 megawatt data centers. The maps just don't make sense. 0:06:18.110 --> 0:06:20.810 They just can't generate enough power as an intimate and 0:06:20.810 --> 0:06:23.620 power supply. So Singapore does have a challenge because on 0:06:23.620 --> 0:06:26.800 one hand, it wants to retain its hub spaces. On 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:28.580 the other hand, as you said, there's a moratorium that's 0:06:28.580 --> 0:06:31.520 been in place for two years. Pretty much there's some 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:33.820 talk about what will happen next year. Will one or 0:06:33.820 --> 0:06:37.620 more sites become available? That's likely that we'll probably see 0:06:37.620 --> 0:06:39.659 one or two more. But certainly we won't see the 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:43.339 type type of deployment that we've seen in the previous 0:06:43.339 --> 0:06:46.669 years before the moratorium. So it'll be interesting to see 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.919 if Singapore can maintain, maintain that status. The reality is jaime, 0:06:50.930 --> 0:06:54.010 the need for data to drive the data, the data 0:06:54.010 --> 0:06:56.880 generation is not flowing and will not flow. You know, 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.460 if I give you a bit of basic analysis that 0:06:59.460 --> 0:07:00.150 proves the point. 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.330 If you look at someone like the Philippines, 110 million people, 0:07:03.339 --> 0:07:06.290 30 million of which aren't on smartphones yet, you can 0:07:06.290 --> 0:07:09.419 just imagine as anyone hits the smartphones the first time, 0:07:09.420 --> 0:07:11.960 what do they do? They download? Netflix. HD 0:07:12.340 --> 0:07:15.760 e banking, e commerce, the data is not going to stop. 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.690 So data centers are needed to fulfill that requirement. Singapore 0:07:19.690 --> 0:07:22.130 be interesting to see how they maintain the need to 0:07:22.130 --> 0:07:26.550 maintain the hub status. But with the moratorium will operators 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:29.640 find new homes for data and we're already seeing that 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:33.090 a little bit in J. B and in batam in Indonesia. 0:07:33.100 --> 0:07:36.200 And we're already seeing trends to deploy out in Thailand 0:07:36.210 --> 0:07:38.740 Philippines is going to be the next big market I suspect. 0:07:38.750 --> 0:07:40.590 So it's definitely going to be under a challenge. I 0:07:40.590 --> 0:07:42.520 think that spaces over the next couple of years, 0:07:42.530 --> 0:07:45.880 the sort of story of the data center really reminds 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:49.640 me of just about any other energy intensive industry here 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:53.100 in Singapore, whether it's pet camps, whether it's electricity generation 0:07:53.100 --> 0:07:56.080 in that sounds as if there's only so much more 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.260 that Singapore can do as you say, given all the constraints. 0:07:59.340 --> 0:08:01.650 But it is an industry that is, there is growing 0:08:01.650 --> 0:08:03.150 and we need to sort of grow on that. 0:08:03.740 --> 0:08:05.750 But do you think at least as far as Singapore 0:08:05.750 --> 0:08:09.420 sponsored and overall technology is concerned there's room to grow 0:08:09.420 --> 0:08:11.130 and this we are going to my next question for 0:08:11.130 --> 0:08:15.030 you in sort of developing the technologies for green or 0:08:15.030 --> 0:08:18.750 green data centers, how they're constructed, how they are powered, 0:08:18.750 --> 0:08:21.150 how they operate. I'm sure that's something that must be 0:08:21.150 --> 0:08:21.860 something 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:25.570 on the radar for everybody as far as sustainability goals. 0:08:25.570 --> 0:08:27.860 Is there something that Singapore can lead on? You think? 0:08:28.140 --> 0:08:30.950 I really hope so. In fact, the business that I 0:08:30.950 --> 0:08:35.050 co founded evolution is somewhat predicated on that principle, which 0:08:35.050 --> 0:08:38.469 is that Singapore will, even if it can't deploy more 0:08:38.470 --> 0:08:42.420 data centers will take a lead in deploying technology and 0:08:42.420 --> 0:08:46.459 operating processes which drive greener data centers 0:08:46.540 --> 0:08:49.750 in our neighboring country. So for the overall benefits of 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:51.650 as you can and if you look at what came 0:08:51.650 --> 0:08:54.210 out of cop 26 clearly that the market's kind of 0:08:54.210 --> 0:08:56.730 combined into one degree to say, okay, what can we 0:08:56.730 --> 0:09:00.460 do as a combined region. And my answer is from Singapore, 0:09:00.470 --> 0:09:03.490 be the fourth leader, be the one that says there 0:09:03.490 --> 0:09:05.890 is technology that's happening in the rest of the world 0:09:05.890 --> 0:09:09.359 that we can deploy in Singapore in the surrounding countries 0:09:09.540 --> 0:09:11.800 and there's new technology has come along that we all 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.350 play a part of allowing our neighbors access to share 0:09:14.350 --> 0:09:17.490 that learning, there's a huge opportunity to Singapore to take 0:09:17.490 --> 0:09:21.050 that fort leadership position on behalf of Asia. And so 0:09:21.050 --> 0:09:22.959 that gets around a little bit. What do we do 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:24.679 as a hub where we're not just the hub for 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.179 the existing data centers, but we're taking a leadership position 0:09:28.179 --> 0:09:30.750 on on how to build greener data centers 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:31.860 across the region. 0:09:31.940 --> 0:09:33.859 But I'm always clear just as a byline, 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.179 we don't say green data centers, you know, the reality 0:09:37.179 --> 0:09:38.969 is there's no such thing as a green data center 0:09:38.970 --> 0:09:41.910 and once the industry acknowledges that I think it becomes 0:09:41.910 --> 0:09:43.910 a lot easier to tackle the challenges that we have 0:09:43.910 --> 0:09:44.920 as an industry ahead of us. 0:09:44.929 --> 0:09:47.720 Yeah, I'm glad you said green er rather than green, 0:09:47.730 --> 0:09:50.080 I caught myself there as well. But in terms of 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.130 the actual technologies, where do you think the most sort 0:09:53.130 --> 0:09:56.510 of low hanging food might be, is it in cooling, 0:09:56.520 --> 0:10:01.010 can cooling be done more efficiently? Is it in emissions? 0:10:01.010 --> 0:10:03.689 Is it in the use of water as well? And 0:10:03.690 --> 0:10:06.050 water as well? I mean, the production of water at 0:10:06.050 --> 0:10:08.750 least two emissions too? I would imagine. So where do 0:10:08.750 --> 0:10:11.590 you think the most promising technologies, like 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:13.860 the answers we need to look at every aspect 0:10:13.940 --> 0:10:14.960 of design, 0:10:15.140 --> 0:10:18.270 build and operate and you've touched on some so calling 0:10:18.270 --> 0:10:23.160 hydrogen to remove the diesel Genset, how we use our 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:26.100 excess heat in a circular economy type of way that 0:10:26.110 --> 0:10:28.520 the challenge there being in a hot region rather than 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:31.589 coal region. So it's easier to find ways to offset 0:10:31.590 --> 0:10:33.050 your heat in colder countries. 0:10:33.140 --> 0:10:35.260 But for me and for evolution 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:39.770 actually, we think renewable energy is clearly the biggest ticket items. 0:10:39.780 --> 0:10:42.469 We're looking at green cement to be used in our 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:44.850 first deployment of the example. And that's great. And we 0:10:44.850 --> 0:10:47.929 would absolutely do it. But it doesn't move the needle massively. 0:10:47.940 --> 0:10:51.319 Something like using renewable energy clearly does. Because if we 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:54.660 can use a source that is no longer using coal, 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:56.059 then that really is 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.089 making a material difference. So whilst we look at every 0:10:59.090 --> 0:11:02.020 aspect and you mentioned some of them very well for us, 0:11:02.030 --> 0:11:04.770 we've got to move as an industry to using renewable energy. 0:11:04.780 --> 0:11:08.120 And to be absolutely clear, I'm not talking about using 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.720 carbon credits where an operator here in ASia has purchased 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.420 carbon credits in the U. S. Probably at a very 0:11:14.420 --> 0:11:18.610 low rate and is offsetting them against usage against their admittance. 0:11:18.610 --> 0:11:21.720 In ASia. For me that's greenwashing, there's another word for it. 0:11:21.730 --> 0:11:23.750 It doesn't drive any value to the region in which 0:11:23.750 --> 0:11:26.750 you're admitting that's not a sustainable and it was okay 0:11:26.750 --> 0:11:29.239 as a sticking plaster, the stick and faster needs to 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:31.439 be ripped off as an industry. We need to move 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:35.100 too much more aggressive forms of using renewable energy and 0:11:35.100 --> 0:11:36.350 we need to get much quicker 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:38.319 and we need to do it as a combined industry 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:39.860 rather than just one or two people. 0:11:40.140 --> 0:11:40.330 I'm 0:11:40.330 --> 0:11:42.530 going to jump on your last comment and ask you 0:11:42.530 --> 0:11:45.580 as well your take on whether the industry as a whole, 0:11:45.590 --> 0:11:49.040 the data center operators do recognize that they have a 0:11:49.050 --> 0:11:51.600 huge role to play because we know in, in countries 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:54.000 like Singapore data centers do take up a huge percentage 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:56.850 of electricity. I'm sure it's the same elsewhere. 0:11:56.940 --> 0:11:59.460 Do they recognize this as a whole? Is there sort 0:11:59.460 --> 0:12:02.170 of a general awareness? Are the outliers where, you know, 0:12:02.179 --> 0:12:03.059 they really haven't 0:12:03.140 --> 0:12:04.310 admitted to it 0:12:04.429 --> 0:12:06.880 as an industry? We are not acknowledging and we have 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.160 a problem. We have a challenge to move to greener 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:09.950 data fences. 0:12:10.340 --> 0:12:12.809 There's lots of people with their heads in the fan. 0:12:12.820 --> 0:12:17.310 There's lots of operators that believe that statements on websites 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:20.420 are really delivering value in real life and they're not, 0:12:20.429 --> 0:12:24.700 you know, people suggesting that they're 100% renewable. They use 100% 0:12:24.700 --> 0:12:27.610 renewable power in Singapore in the data center Jamie. They're 0:12:27.610 --> 0:12:29.960 not and they can't be because we don't have that 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.760 much renewable power. That tells me there's a huge greenwashing 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.520 issue in the industry. I would say it's more prevalent 0:12:35.530 --> 0:12:39.160 in Asia. Unfortunately, we're definitely lagging behind in terms of 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:41.660 the use of technology to start amending that, 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:44.750 that we've seen in parts of europe and Asia, but 0:12:44.750 --> 0:12:47.530 until we recognize there's an issue until we take our 0:12:47.530 --> 0:12:48.459 head out of the sand 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.160 until we start understanding that we've got to walk the 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:53.140 walk as well as talk talk, we're not going to 0:12:53.140 --> 0:12:55.930 progress as an industry and what that leads to is 0:12:55.940 --> 0:12:59.030 both frustration from our customers who have made very public 0:12:59.030 --> 0:13:00.260 commitments about their own 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:04.130 Carbon neutral commitments, whether it's 2030 or whatever it may 0:13:04.130 --> 0:13:07.170 be or we actually leave ourselves open to regulation coming 0:13:07.170 --> 0:13:10.370 above us. If we can't self polices and industry, then 0:13:10.370 --> 0:13:12.930 someone's gonna come and police us with governance and laws 0:13:12.929 --> 0:13:14.349 and actually that's the wrong answer. 0:13:14.740 --> 0:13:18.150 We should be mature enough to say what can be done, 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.580 what will we do and let's get on and do 0:13:20.580 --> 0:13:22.740 it rather than start putting it on our website and 0:13:22.740 --> 0:13:24.040 attending at the end of the 0:13:24.070 --> 0:13:27.350 issue. That's, that's an excellent point And it can be 0:13:27.350 --> 0:13:30.240 said about many other industries as well. We'll take a 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:36.690 quick break and be right back. Climate conversations podcast is 0:13:36.690 --> 0:13:43.250 supported by savannah, jerome building cities shaping lives. I wanted 0:13:43.250 --> 0:13:45.470 to get your take as well as the role of 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.060 consumers as far as we can. 0:13:48.340 --> 0:13:50.980 The problem with consumers as we sort of alluded to 0:13:50.990 --> 0:13:53.570 at the beginning of our conversation is that consumers sometimes 0:13:53.570 --> 0:13:56.090 don't know that their consumer of the services that the 0:13:56.090 --> 0:13:59.470 data center provides, its not as direct between the provider 0:13:59.470 --> 0:14:01.900 and a consumer, correct. But there are all sorts of 0:14:01.900 --> 0:14:04.930 different consumers. You have netflix with the consumer, but you 0:14:04.929 --> 0:14:08.000 have the regular guy on the street was also a consumer. 0:14:08.010 --> 0:14:10.640 Do you think consumers big and small have a role 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.929 to play in knowing the kind of demands that they 0:14:13.929 --> 0:14:16.750 are making an expecting of data centers and what this 0:14:16.750 --> 0:14:20.060 sort of exponential growth in demand will lead to at 0:14:20.060 --> 0:14:22.239 some point in time. Do they have a role in 0:14:22.250 --> 0:14:26.500 efficiencies managing demand, things like that. Both at the individual 0:14:26.500 --> 0:14:27.430 corporate levels. 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:31.020 The answer is absolutely yes, but there's an education piece there, 0:14:31.020 --> 0:14:34.530 as you said, I don't think people necessarily recognize the 0:14:34.530 --> 0:14:36.860 amount of data they're using, the amount of video calls 0:14:36.860 --> 0:14:39.250 are doing. The amount of streaming they're doing 0:14:39.340 --> 0:14:41.620 creates the need for data and that therefore goes through 0:14:41.620 --> 0:14:45.440 a data center which is using power and utilities including water. 0:14:45.450 --> 0:14:48.790 So there's a little bit of education required. That's not 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.770 to suggest people aren't interested in the education. I just 0:14:51.770 --> 0:14:55.680 don't think it's happened previously. So as consumers and over 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.060 consumption of data, it's the same as 0:14:58.140 --> 0:15:00.860 our need to change our own ways of 0:15:00.940 --> 0:15:03.900 living when it comes to anything else. Like reciting as 0:15:03.900 --> 0:15:07.330 example our own carbon footprint. It's not just data. It 0:15:07.340 --> 0:15:09.960 they can do. And the reality is we've grown up 0:15:09.970 --> 0:15:13.680 in a consumption based environment where we can keep doing 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.070 more and more and more and what we're seeing is 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.000 the utilities the earth can't keep up with our demands. 0:15:19.010 --> 0:15:22.050 So where's the answer? The answer doesn't sit with data centers. 0:15:22.060 --> 0:15:25.610 The answer with our consumers whether it's an individual consumers 0:15:25.610 --> 0:15:28.900 or in the workplace. So turning lights off shutting down 0:15:28.900 --> 0:15:32.880 computers not only having one screen. I'm not saying individually 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.720 that will make a huge difference, but collectively that will 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.850 reduce the power requirements. So we can't sit here as 0:15:38.850 --> 0:15:42.150 consumers as we are right now on an audio call 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:43.450 complaining about data 0:15:43.510 --> 0:15:45.510 when 0:15:45.510 --> 0:15:47.670 when we're using it. So for me there's a little 0:15:47.670 --> 0:15:50.820 bit of a contradiction but that comes from education or 0:15:50.820 --> 0:15:53.060 the lack of knowledge of how they are a key 0:15:53.060 --> 0:15:57.060 component in individual infrastructure. But yeah, we need to look 0:15:57.060 --> 0:15:59.360 at ourselves and say, do we need three devices going 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:00.960 at the same time? Do we need 0:16:01.140 --> 0:16:04.390 five smart tv? How many iphones do we actually need? 0:16:04.390 --> 0:16:06.150 And it's not criticism of the product? 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:08.550 It's a criticism of us as users of the product. 0:16:08.940 --> 0:16:11.450 Yeah. Now you make me feel guilty for having someone 0:16:11.450 --> 0:16:15.090 listening to this podcast, uh having his dream, right, But 0:16:15.090 --> 0:16:16.960 here's the question we are living. You know, when we 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.960 talk about five G when we talk about downloading speeds, 0:16:19.970 --> 0:16:23.130 it's always sort of a one sided narrative where, you know, 0:16:23.130 --> 0:16:24.560 if you download a movie and 0:16:24.940 --> 0:16:28.680 30 seconds, that's quite incontrovertibly a good thing. But yeah, 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.890 as you say, it's not necessarily the full picture. There 0:16:31.890 --> 0:16:34.820 is a large picture to the data that people use 0:16:34.820 --> 0:16:37.940 and electricity as well that comes with it again, Where 0:16:37.940 --> 0:16:40.390 does it start? I feel sometimes too much lands on 0:16:40.390 --> 0:16:42.570 the individual and the individual consumer, 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:44.390 do you think there will ever be a time where 0:16:44.390 --> 0:16:45.570 the larger players 0:16:45.740 --> 0:16:48.620 do step up and sort of make it clearer to people, 0:16:48.630 --> 0:16:51.860 the implications and consequences of their choices and what they do. 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:54.850 Yes and no, I think we're seeing certainly the big 0:16:54.850 --> 0:16:59.260 cloud companies Microsoft AWS and Google of the world 0:16:59.740 --> 0:17:02.180 making very big commitment. So we look at Microsoft as 0:17:02.180 --> 0:17:04.959 a brief example. Their commitment is to not have any 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:06.060 more Diesel Genset 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.659 On their site by 2030. That's a big commitment. And 0:17:09.660 --> 0:17:11.800 it's one that they said as they sold, they will 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:15.100 allow other operators to see. So that's exactly the kind 0:17:15.100 --> 0:17:18.290 of attitude that we need and thought leadership that we need. 0:17:18.300 --> 0:17:22.160 The others are fulfilling customer demand. So should netflix 0:17:22.540 --> 0:17:24.669 stop streaming. HD 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.740 Well, why would be there question when, when their customers 0:17:28.740 --> 0:17:32.190 are demanding that kind of service. So while there's a demand, 0:17:32.190 --> 0:17:34.230 there will be a supply. I don't think it should 0:17:34.230 --> 0:17:35.790 all be on the consumers. I think there should be 0:17:35.790 --> 0:17:39.210 a two way relationship with operators and content providers. 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:41.550 Just thinking about the same way Jamie on the side 0:17:41.550 --> 0:17:44.380 of food packaging. Now, you see the amount of calories, right? 0:17:44.380 --> 0:17:48.490 That's based on obesity levels and declining health that consumers 0:17:48.490 --> 0:17:50.879 are now wanting to see the impact of what they're 0:17:50.890 --> 0:17:53.990 eating much more clearly and maybe going forward we'll see 0:17:53.990 --> 0:17:55.960 something similar in terms of content. So 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.010 MR customer if you download this, that'd be using so 0:17:59.010 --> 0:18:01.480 much carbon to do. So, you know, so you can 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:03.510 maybe see a stage where that happens. So it's a 0:18:03.510 --> 0:18:05.490 two way street. I'm going to tell you what the 0:18:05.490 --> 0:18:07.750 impact is. You as the customers inside, whether that's the 0:18:07.750 --> 0:18:09.990 right thing to do, it will start still a lot 0:18:09.990 --> 0:18:11.850 as a demand. There still will be supplied 0:18:12.340 --> 0:18:15.869 the last question and again, to refocus ourselves Then on Asia, 0:18:15.869 --> 0:18:18.000 as we've said, Asia is going to be increasingly sort 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.609 of the real center of action as far as data 0:18:20.609 --> 0:18:22.060 centers is concerned, 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:26.450 paying for us in your mind, an ideal situation 10 years, 0:18:26.450 --> 0:18:28.590 20 years down the road when there's more and more 0:18:28.590 --> 0:18:31.990 data's come up in countries, as you say, like Malaysia Indonesia, 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:35.869 what would a sustainable ecosystem actually looked like between data 0:18:35.869 --> 0:18:39.310 centers and their energy usage between the relationship between data 0:18:39.310 --> 0:18:43.050 centers and their consumers and between them and governments as well. 0:18:43.050 --> 0:18:45.560 In terms of the regulations, in terms of the new 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:49.510 policies as well that makes it sustainable. What might it 0:18:49.510 --> 0:18:52.330 look like that we can at least from Singapore's perspective 0:18:52.330 --> 0:18:55.240 and they're pushing the region along. What might that situation 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:55.670 look like? 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:56.330