Speaker 1: This is a C. N. A.
Speaker 2: Podcast.
Speaker 1: Welcome
Speaker 2: back to the climate conversations with me julie you. It's
Speaker 2: no secret that the meat industry is a big polluter
Speaker 2: research shows that if cows were a nation would be
Speaker 2: the third largest greenhouse gas emitter every bite of the
Speaker 2: burger boost harmful greenhouse gasses. And yet one of life's
Speaker 2: greatest pleasures for some is sinking our teeth into a
Speaker 2: juicy burger.
Speaker 2: We know swapping to plant based meats would produce 90%
Speaker 2: fewer harmful emissions than regular beef burgers. Yes, 90%. There's
Speaker 2: a big business opportunity. And over the years a range
Speaker 2: of companies have sprung up offering plant based meats. The
Speaker 2: big hitters are impossible. Foods and beyond meat were valued
Speaker 2: at billions today. Yet there's space for smaller players catering
Speaker 2: to local tastes.
Speaker 2: The love handle? A local brand aims to be Asia's
Speaker 2: first plant based butcher with the largest curation of plant
Speaker 2: based meats, dairy and condiments that the business case is strong.
Speaker 2: But what would convince a meat eating population to switch
Speaker 2: to meatless alternatives and how does a chef deal with
Speaker 2: cooking a beef wellington without the beef with me in
Speaker 2: the studio today is celebrity chef and co founder of
Speaker 2: love handle at least 10 minutes. Welcome. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: You know, a plant based butcher is quite an oxymoron,
Speaker 2: isn't it? To say the least your meat loving friends
Speaker 2: dismiss you off hand. What's your go to line when
Speaker 2: that happens
Speaker 1: man, I have so many friends
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 1: usually when I tell him that I run a plant
Speaker 1: based butcher, they're like
Speaker 1: firstly,
Speaker 1: what the heck is it? And secondly I'm never going there.
Speaker 1: It's almost normal for me to get that sort of feedback.
Speaker 1: But because I have beers in my shop,
Speaker 1: people come anyway
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 1: when they come they're like, oh, you know, it's something
Speaker 1: to eat. So they start with like fries for example, right,
Speaker 1: fries is naturally vegan, right?
Speaker 1: But then we have nuggets on our menu and then
Speaker 1: they tried the nuggets and they're like, oh my
Speaker 2: God,
Speaker 1: this doesn't taste like
Speaker 1: it's plant based, right?
Speaker 1: And then
Speaker 1: they slowly progress and they go through the whole menu
Speaker 1: and they're like, well
Speaker 1: this is not so bad after all,
Speaker 2: I'm coming back here again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So it's usually the case and it's what
Speaker 1: we do at love handles or it's what I try
Speaker 1: to achieve. It's like a low barrier of entry for
Speaker 1: enemy lovers to want to try.
Speaker 1: Time is cuisine.
Speaker 2: You used to love me. So tell us a bit
Speaker 2: more about love handle. How are you disrupting the food industry?
Speaker 1: So when I first started love handle, we started as
Speaker 1: a burger joint. I only wanted to do like dirty
Speaker 1: greasy vegan burgers because back then the scene
Speaker 1: in Singapore plant based means it's healthy. It's very wholesome.
Speaker 1: It's very clean eating and I could see why that
Speaker 1: diet would throw people off and plant based whatever. So
Speaker 1: I wanted to firstly break the idea
Speaker 1: that plant based food is a certain way and then
Speaker 1: we sort of just
Speaker 1: evolved
Speaker 1: over the years, as of course, the primary scene started growing.
Speaker 1: We sort of grew with the scene and
Speaker 1: then there were a lot of these
Speaker 1: alternative meat companies that are coming up and then they all,
Speaker 1: who would approach us and they're like, hey, can you
Speaker 1: take my product, here's some samples. So I ended up
Speaker 1: with a bunch of samples in my fridge, it was
Speaker 1: overcrowding my freezer and I was like, okay, I have
Speaker 1: all these products,
Speaker 1: what can I do with it? So the idea of
Speaker 1: opening a plant based butcher showcasing different alternatives and just
Speaker 1: give that kind of options to the general public. We
Speaker 1: were sort of filling up a gap.
Speaker 1: If you go to like your supermarkets in Singapore now,
Speaker 1: you see maybe a standard range of products, right?
Speaker 1: It's usually less than a handful of different brands, but
Speaker 1: if you come to a shop then you have the
Speaker 1: whole curated butcher display.
Speaker 2: What are we talking about here? What kind of range
Speaker 1: man talking about? Like
Speaker 1: chicken, We're talking about beef, steak, we have rundown that's
Speaker 1: prepared and ready to go. We have sausages, we have
Speaker 1: minced meat, we have wellington,
Speaker 1: we make in house sauces, mayonnaise.
Speaker 2: So I wonder who your customers are, Are they mostly vegans,
Speaker 2: vegetarians full on meat eaters looking for alternatives.
Speaker 1: So I think this is where it gets really interesting
Speaker 1: because we've never really marketed ourselves as vegan actually vegan
Speaker 1: is a word we try not to use if anything,
Speaker 1: we just say plant based, right? So if a table
Speaker 1: of four comes in, usually it's one vegan or two
Speaker 1: mos
Speaker 1: the rest of the gates are just
Speaker 1: meat eaters. I think it's a place where vegans and
Speaker 1: non vegans can come together and have a good meal
Speaker 1: and not feel like they're missing out on their meat
Speaker 1: because you know how many meters b like I need
Speaker 1: my protein any mind or my steak. So when you
Speaker 1: come to love and you don't feel like eating plants basically,
Speaker 2: that's interesting. So why do regulars keep coming back and
Speaker 2: what are the most important factors that consumers
Speaker 2: look for when choosing alternative meat products?
Speaker 1: I think the first thing is taste, it was washed
Speaker 1: down to,
Speaker 1: does it taste good? Of course we can't really call
Speaker 1: it chicken. If it doesn't taste like chicken, but if
Speaker 1: it tastes good
Speaker 1: then
Speaker 1: people will eat it. And I think that's the main
Speaker 1: thing that we focus on love handle. And
Speaker 1: also I feel white people keep coming back. It's because
Speaker 1: they don't feel like we are
Speaker 1: pushy or greenwashing anybody. But for us it's really just
Speaker 1: about
Speaker 1: the food.
Speaker 1: It's really just about convenience allowing you to bring back
Speaker 1: your meat from the butcher and cook it at home
Speaker 1: cooking for your family or for your vegan girlfriend or
Speaker 1: whatever it
Speaker 2: is this pricing issue.
Speaker 1: Well, yes, but I believe as the demand
Speaker 1: goes up, supply goes up and price will drop, but
Speaker 1: we're not even that pricey right now. I would compare
Speaker 1: us with premium meats, definitely not the meat you get
Speaker 1: in your wet market, but if you go to like
Speaker 1: Uber's or whatever butchery, right, we're priced about the same
Speaker 2: as I understand. The majority of your products have been
Speaker 2: developed in house over the years. How do you recreate meat?
Speaker 2: Not just any meat, but tasty meat that looks and
Speaker 2: feels like it without involving animals. And how are they
Speaker 2: made of? Exactly.
Speaker 1: Technology has sort of advanced over the years, five years ago,
Speaker 1: six years ago. If you
Speaker 1: ask someone to eat a vegetarian meal, it's pretty hard
Speaker 1: and it's pretty gross because your local vegetarian stores, I
Speaker 1: mean some people like it but it's very just like
Speaker 1: it's gluten and it's whatever.
Speaker 1: But now because of this technology, there's like high moisture extrusion.
Speaker 1: There is different kinds of products or techniques
Speaker 1: to recreate this texture, like tvp textured vegetable protein from soy.
Speaker 1: People use cognac to make seafood. So I think it's
Speaker 1: a lot of creativity and these products are actually already
Speaker 1: out there. It's just that now with technology we can
Speaker 1: sort of
Speaker 1: play around with the texture and make it as close
Speaker 1: to rumi as possible and then the flavoring, it all
Speaker 1: just comes.
Speaker 1: Usually for me, I try to think of a dish
Speaker 1: that I want to make for example, chicken, rice, I
Speaker 1: think about the texture of the chicken. I think about
Speaker 1: the flavor of the chicken. Okay, well what can I
Speaker 1: put in this meat that makes it feel like
Speaker 1: chicken rice
Speaker 2: science is fascinating. So
Speaker 1: it's science. It's flavor is a lot of R. And D.
Speaker 1: We make a pastrami and love handle. And it's made
Speaker 1: with jackfruit, it's made of raw jackfruit because jackfruit has
Speaker 1: a very fibrous texture and young jackfruit doesn't have any flavor.
Speaker 1: So you just get the texture and just put whatever
Speaker 1: flavor you have. So that's like almost 20 ingredients in
Speaker 1: the pastrami.
Speaker 1: But everything is ingredients that you know ingredients that you
Speaker 1: can find in your supermarket. It's interesting. And we made
Speaker 1: like 12 versions of it, the first one we thought
Speaker 1: it was good that people taste, it was bad.
Speaker 1: And then we went back and we did it again
Speaker 1: and I thought it's sort of good
Speaker 1: and we got some feedback and they're like no bro
Speaker 1: it's bad. So we just kept going back to the
Speaker 1: drawing board and now we are like okay this should
Speaker 1: be it. People coming to us and telling us good
Speaker 1: things about this pastrami.
Speaker 2: You
Speaker 1: know
Speaker 1: it definitely takes time
Speaker 2: and I wonder if there are necessarily healthier in terms
Speaker 2: of calories, cholesterol nutritional value. Can I eat your plant
Speaker 2: based cheese burger every day.
Speaker 1: Well we would say
Speaker 1: have everything in moderation.
Speaker 2: Well
Speaker 1: I believe in the plant based scene.
Speaker 1: Just like
Speaker 1: any other cuisine, there are healthy stuff and then they
Speaker 1: are
Speaker 1: delicious and greasy
Speaker 1: stuff. Same with the plant based cuisine, right? You have
Speaker 1: your
Speaker 1: healthy options, your salads or raw vegan diet or whatever.
Speaker 1: But who's to say that there can't be a
Speaker 1: greasy delicious plant based meal. So we're on that side
Speaker 1: of the spectrum though, we still use of course whole
Speaker 1: foods and we use whole vegetables and we have cleaner
Speaker 1: eating dishes. But
Speaker 1: I mean that's not one of about,
Speaker 2: we're going for a show break, we'll be right back.
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Speaker 2: as a chef. Is it a whole other sort of
Speaker 2: ordeal trying to prep marinade and cook with plant based meat?
Speaker 1: I think it just takes a lot of experience and
Speaker 1: a lot of patients working with plant based meat. You
Speaker 1: throw everything you know
Speaker 1: out the window because nothing works that way, right, Whatever
Speaker 1: you learn in school, whatever you picked up three years,
Speaker 1: I had to set a clear
Speaker 1: my mind
Speaker 1: and relearn handling these plant based products of course. Then
Speaker 1: there's some basics right of marination and like making sauces,
Speaker 1: but you're just constantly looking for substitutes even with soy milk,
Speaker 1: can I use the soy milk that has less fat
Speaker 1: or more fat. Should I be using a different kind
Speaker 1: of milk for this
Speaker 1: from my jesus et cetera? You need to have a
Speaker 1: lot of patients to figure out which
Speaker 1: product works best for whatever you want to do. All
Speaker 2: right, so I'm a south korean. I love my korean
Speaker 2: barbecue fried chicken, but I'm not the best cook out there.
Speaker 2: So do you think it's something that I can and
Speaker 2: we want to whip up at home?
Speaker 1: Oh, definitely
Speaker 2: give us some examples. What can I try,
Speaker 1: man? I'm working on a fried chicken right
Speaker 2: now. How's that going?
Speaker 1: Well, I did it yesterday. I mean I didn't know
Speaker 1: I was going to be having this interview with you today,
Speaker 1: talking about fried chicken, but some friends came over yesterday
Speaker 1: and I just so happen to have this fried chicken
Speaker 1: on my hands and I was like, yo you wanna
Speaker 1: try these fried chicken? It looks exactly like
Speaker 1: fried chicken
Speaker 2: drumsticks and everything.
Speaker 1: It's like chicken breast. So you know the crispy skin,
Speaker 1: it's like a buttermilk chicken, right? They had it and
Speaker 1: they were like, yo I can't even tell that it's
Speaker 1: not me like that really gets me going if chefs
Speaker 1: and bartenders there
Speaker 1: coming to your place and yeah,
Speaker 1: eating this stuff and they give the stamp of approval,
Speaker 1: then you're like, okay, you're golden, right, this is all
Speaker 1: you need is who you need to impress right? The
Speaker 1: industry people so that the other guys when they come
Speaker 1: through they know what we're doing. You know what we're about.
Speaker 2: You were a major player and the plant based food
Speaker 2: scene in Singapore. Tell us about how your plant based
Speaker 2: journey started.
Speaker 1: Okay so I've always been cooking like meat stuff right?
Speaker 1: And then about 67 years ago I started being a
Speaker 1: restaurant called Harvest. We were doing like modern vegan cuisine.
Speaker 1: I saw that there was a market because the primary
Speaker 1: scene in bali was opening the scene in U. K.
Speaker 1: Was coming and always start coming from the kitchen
Speaker 1: whenever somebody walks in
Speaker 1: and ask for vegan options it's usually
Speaker 1: always like an afterthought we just try to whip something
Speaker 1: up in the kitchen put a bunch of salad together.
Speaker 1: Some weird dressing and here so I know from the
Speaker 1: other side of being in the kitchen that nobody really
Speaker 1: cares about being in food. So I wanted to have
Speaker 1: a place where
Speaker 1: vegans and non vegans can come together
Speaker 1: and have a good meal and that has always been
Speaker 1: my
Speaker 1: go since I started cooking plant based food.
Speaker 1: That's where it started man like for me I don't
Speaker 1: like being super exclusive. I think for me it's really
Speaker 1: about community and I think it's sad that
Speaker 1: for example I'm vegan and you're not vegan and the
Speaker 1: rest of us here they're not vegans and you guys
Speaker 1: have to either cater to me or
Speaker 1: I'll have my dinner at home and I'll come out
Speaker 1: and meet you, which is quite sad. Right? So if
Speaker 1: you have a place where everybody just come together and
Speaker 1: have a good meal and it's about the community, it's
Speaker 1: about the vibes and
Speaker 2: and I know you're also passionate about the environment, ethical
Speaker 2: treatment of animals and food security. Why do they matter
Speaker 2: to you personally?
Speaker 1: I think the past two years has really, I guess
Speaker 1: changed my mindset a little bit
Speaker 1: before that. I wasn't really like sustainable man. It's hard recycling.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it can be a chore, right? But since the pandemic,
Speaker 1: I think my mindset has changed a little bit because
Speaker 1: we're talking a lot about food security now in Singapore, right?
Speaker 1: We've all experienced the past two years. Borders being closed.
Speaker 1: People are afraid of what are we going to eat?
Speaker 1: Food prices are rising because important is difficult.
Speaker 1: I think Singapore has to be self sustainable in one
Speaker 1: way or another. And if we can't have more land
Speaker 1: to grow our own stuff, then
Speaker 1: plant based meat is the next best thing. It's something
Speaker 1: that we're producing in Singapore, it's something that we have
Speaker 1: the resources to do it here. I think that's why
Speaker 1: it's important whether or not it becomes a staple in
Speaker 1: the next few years, we don't know,
Speaker 1: but as long as more people are
Speaker 1: open to the idea that actually I can have a
Speaker 1: Prime Ismaeel.
Speaker 2: So when you talk to her like a chef's or
Speaker 2: other people in that F and B circle is there
Speaker 2: sort of that shift in mindset?
Speaker 1: For sure. For sure. I got lucky because
Speaker 1: I started cooking plum babies like 6, 7 years ago.
Speaker 1: But now if you don't have a plan based item
Speaker 1: on your menu, you'll get a bad review just because
Speaker 1: you don't have a plan based item on the menu,
Speaker 1: which is
Speaker 1: to be honest, pretty crazy. But I think also it's
Speaker 1: a ship in the right direction. My friends now that
Speaker 1: an industry to ask me like bro, how do you
Speaker 1: do this, what do you use in substitute of butter?
Speaker 1: I think I just got really lucky but it's also
Speaker 1: good to see a lot of chefs trying to take
Speaker 1: on cooking plant based stuff
Speaker 2: and the alternative protein movement isn't really limited to just
Speaker 2: meet
Speaker 2: many of your peers have been working on other animal
Speaker 2: like free versions of seafood, dairy products and also even
Speaker 2: pet food. How do you see the competition sort of
Speaker 2: shaping up for Love handle. How are you trying to
Speaker 2: stay ahead?
Speaker 1: I think Love handle is in a very unique position
Speaker 1: because we are very consumer facing a lot of these
Speaker 1: brands, they usually focus a lot on commercial. So working
Speaker 1: with restaurants and hotels for us, we focus on direct
Speaker 1: to consumer because we have a brand, we have certain
Speaker 1: kind of street cred
Speaker 1: so consumers trust us and these manufacturers trust us in
Speaker 1: what we do. So we're in a sweet spot, we
Speaker 1: wouldn't call them our competitors because eventually we still need
Speaker 1: to work together and grow this community. You know, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't say we have competitors.
Speaker 1: Also not saying that we're the only ones that are
Speaker 1: doing this with this manufacturers and new brands coming up.
Speaker 1: We're always trying to build an inclusive community. We have
Speaker 1: different collaborations, were throwing like a street party and we're
Speaker 1: getting all these plant based people to come down and
Speaker 1: collaborate and show their support. So I wouldn't say it's competition,
Speaker 1: but it's just really growing the community together.
Speaker 2: That's interesting. So I would like to ask, what advice
Speaker 2: then would you give to an emerging startup who has
Speaker 2: a vision like you do to transform the sector,
Speaker 1: man, I need something, I tell myself all the time,
Speaker 1: we have to basically stay hungry
Speaker 1: and not settle for whatever it is you have Now
Speaker 1: people are always trying to look for
Speaker 1: the next best thing, but there's just so many boundaries
Speaker 1: to break
Speaker 1: in this plant based scene, if everyone is doing the
Speaker 1: same thing,
Speaker 1: like everyone is sort of, oh, there's this new technology
Speaker 1: and then everyone goes into this new technology, but that's
Speaker 1: like a whole spectrum, this whole world of other stuff
Speaker 1: that's not either been discovered yet or somebody is doing
Speaker 1: it on the down low and no one knows about it.
Speaker 1: I think
Speaker 1: the more diverse everybody gets trying to achieve their own
Speaker 1: goals instead of
Speaker 1: trying to be at the same place together. I think
Speaker 1: that helps the scene.
Speaker 2: What's next for love handle? What does success look like
Speaker 2: for you when it comes to getting more foodies to
Speaker 2: go meatless?
Speaker 1: Well, so the goal has always been kind of have
Speaker 1: love handle in every major city. That's what we taught
Speaker 1: ourselves when we started that of course, still stays right.
Speaker 1: We want to be asset light, so we don't want
Speaker 1: to open too many shops in the city or whatever.
Speaker 1: But
Speaker 1: I think at least for me being in three different countries,
Speaker 1: having a showroom there and being someone of an influence
Speaker 1: to whatever city or country that we're in, I think
Speaker 1: that is success for me, as long as we are
Speaker 1: pushing people towards the right direction,
Speaker 1: as long as there are people
Speaker 1: walking through a love handle and being open to try
Speaker 1: plant based food. I think that's success for me, man, wow,
Speaker 2: What an exciting vision and mission. I wish you the
Speaker 2: best of luck it is.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thanks for having
Speaker 2: me.
Speaker 1: Well,
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Speaker 2: This is julie you.