1 00:00:03,039 --> 00:00:04,219 Speaker 1: You're listening to 2 00:00:04,230 --> 00:00:05,380 Speaker 2: AC N A podcast 3 00:00:08,329 --> 00:00:11,029 Speaker 2: would taking the extra parental leave affect their career 4 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:11,779 Speaker 2: prospects. 5 00:00:11,789 --> 00:00:16,350 Speaker 1: Ultimately, it is in the employer's long term interest to 6 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,229 Speaker 1: be able to allow employees to take this kind of leave. 7 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,149 Speaker 1: If young parents feel that ok, that my workplace is 8 00:00:23,159 --> 00:00:27,270 Speaker 1: really begrudging my taking of time to spend with my family, 9 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,590 Speaker 1: then maybe I shouldn't work here. Maybe I should go 10 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,830 Speaker 1: somewhere else that's more family friendly with the new 11 00:00:33,154 --> 00:00:35,685 Speaker 1: parental leave. Would that also create some form of, I 12 00:00:35,694 --> 00:00:39,255 Speaker 1: guess invisible discrimination against people who are planning for a family. 13 00:00:39,264 --> 00:00:42,735 Speaker 1: If an employer did do that and really did discriminate 14 00:00:42,744 --> 00:00:45,705 Speaker 1: against such employees, then they might bump up against the 15 00:00:45,715 --> 00:00:50,314 Speaker 1: new workplace fairness legislation that we are bringing into parliament 16 00:00:50,325 --> 00:00:52,915 Speaker 1: and into force. But what's to say that you're single 17 00:00:52,924 --> 00:00:54,735 Speaker 1: is not going to get married in the next year 18 00:00:54,744 --> 00:00:56,525 Speaker 1: and then have a kid in the other year. You 19 00:00:56,534 --> 00:00:57,854 Speaker 1: have no idea. Right. 20 00:00:59,500 --> 00:01:03,549 Speaker 1: Hi. Welcome to the Work It podcast with Tiffany and Gerald. 21 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,110 Speaker 1: We have a special guest in our studio today. 22 00:01:06,150 --> 00:01:06,589 Speaker 2: We have 23 00:01:06,599 --> 00:01:09,750 Speaker 2: Minister Indrani Raja here she is minister in the Prime 24 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:14,260 Speaker 2: Minister's office. Second minister for Finance and also Second Minister 25 00:01:14,269 --> 00:01:16,599 Speaker 2: for National Development. Welcome, Minister. 26 00:01:16,610 --> 00:01:18,830 Speaker 1: Thanks very much. Thanks for having me. So some of 27 00:01:18,839 --> 00:01:20,790 Speaker 1: you might be wondering why do we have a minister 28 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:21,949 Speaker 1: in the studio with us? 29 00:01:22,063 --> 00:01:26,042 Speaker 1: Well, that's because following the National Day Rally announcement that 30 00:01:26,053 --> 00:01:30,053 Speaker 1: there will be more shared parental leave for parents of newborns, 31 00:01:30,093 --> 00:01:32,422 Speaker 1: we thought we will ask the minister to unpack this 32 00:01:32,432 --> 00:01:32,992 Speaker 1: a little bit more 33 00:01:33,002 --> 00:01:33,482 Speaker 1: for us. 34 00:01:33,492 --> 00:01:35,491 Speaker 2: So a couple of weeks ago we did a podcast 35 00:01:35,502 --> 00:01:38,123 Speaker 2: about parental leave, right? So this is so timely. Yeah. 36 00:01:38,133 --> 00:01:39,913 Speaker 1: Yeah, we did one and we talked about whether or 37 00:01:39,922 --> 00:01:42,712 Speaker 1: not this affects your career progression. So that's kind of nice. Yeah. 38 00:01:42,722 --> 00:01:42,953 Speaker 2: So a 39 00:01:42,962 --> 00:01:44,513 Speaker 2: quick summary for all of us here, 40 00:01:44,625 --> 00:01:47,325 Speaker 2: fathers will have a mandatory four weeks of government paid 41 00:01:47,334 --> 00:01:50,426 Speaker 2: leave up from the previous two weeks and there's also 42 00:01:50,435 --> 00:01:53,425 Speaker 2: a new 10 week shared parental leave scheme. So when 43 00:01:53,435 --> 00:01:58,426 Speaker 2: it's totally implemented from 1st April 2026 parental leave entitlement 44 00:01:58,435 --> 00:02:00,666 Speaker 2: will be a total of 30 weeks up from the 45 00:02:00,676 --> 00:02:01,456 Speaker 2: usual 20 46 00:02:01,466 --> 00:02:01,904 Speaker 2: weeks. 47 00:02:01,916 --> 00:02:04,926 Speaker 1: Yeah. So minister, you have had a very busy schedule 48 00:02:04,935 --> 00:02:07,085 Speaker 1: talking specifically about this topic. 49 00:02:07,330 --> 00:02:11,669 Speaker 1: Well, loosely speaking, solving the total fertility rate is your 50 00:02:11,679 --> 00:02:16,228 Speaker 1: KP I right. So are the parental leave enhancements designed 51 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: to help our TFR? Well, they are certainly one of 52 00:02:20,649 --> 00:02:23,750 Speaker 1: the things that we are putting into an overall mix 53 00:02:23,758 --> 00:02:27,470 Speaker 1: because when we spoke to the parents and young couples, 54 00:02:27,479 --> 00:02:30,638 Speaker 1: especially on the question of marriage parenthood what made you 55 00:02:30,649 --> 00:02:33,990 Speaker 1: have more Children. They cited a few challenges and it's 56 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:34,190 Speaker 1: a lot 57 00:02:34,282 --> 00:02:37,853 Speaker 1: a spectrum. There's a part which meeting people. OK. That 58 00:02:37,863 --> 00:02:40,123 Speaker 1: one a bit difficult to engineer. So that one will 59 00:02:40,133 --> 00:02:43,413 Speaker 1: have to be, people will have to work that out. 60 00:02:43,494 --> 00:02:47,603 Speaker 1: But once they're married, first stop would be housing. Then 61 00:02:47,613 --> 00:02:50,343 Speaker 1: if you have a child cost of raising a child 62 00:02:50,563 --> 00:02:54,173 Speaker 1: and then when the child is born, infant care, preschool 63 00:02:54,184 --> 00:02:56,823 Speaker 1: and so on. And one of the things which they 64 00:02:56,833 --> 00:03:00,854 Speaker 1: cited was work life balance, the need to balance their 65 00:03:00,863 --> 00:03:01,163 Speaker 1: family 66 00:03:01,306 --> 00:03:06,397 Speaker 1: responsibilities with their career and their work. And within this conversation, 67 00:03:06,407 --> 00:03:09,248 Speaker 1: the topic of infant care and looking after newborns came 68 00:03:09,257 --> 00:03:11,657 Speaker 1: up because this is the time when the child needs 69 00:03:11,667 --> 00:03:14,647 Speaker 1: the most attention, correct? And parents do want to spend 70 00:03:14,657 --> 00:03:16,817 Speaker 1: time with the child. So when we looked at it, 71 00:03:16,828 --> 00:03:18,807 Speaker 1: we could see their point of view and at the 72 00:03:18,817 --> 00:03:21,276 Speaker 1: same time trying to do this on a voluntary basis, 73 00:03:21,287 --> 00:03:24,578 Speaker 1: doesn't really work. So we said, ok, 10 weeks, shared 74 00:03:24,587 --> 00:03:27,828 Speaker 1: parental leave. The current scheme is that the mom has 75 00:03:27,837 --> 00:03:28,097 Speaker 1: 60 76 00:03:28,272 --> 00:03:32,052 Speaker 1: weeks of maternity. And current is that has two weeks 77 00:03:32,061 --> 00:03:35,792 Speaker 1: mandatory and two weeks voluntary. But the dad can share 78 00:03:35,802 --> 00:03:39,151 Speaker 1: the mother's parental leave by borrowing if you like up 79 00:03:39,162 --> 00:03:41,531 Speaker 1: to four weeks, right? But if he does that, then 80 00:03:41,542 --> 00:03:44,151 Speaker 1: the mom loses out because she's down to 12 weeks. 81 00:03:44,292 --> 00:03:46,611 Speaker 1: So we figured that we should do something over and 82 00:03:46,621 --> 00:03:49,751 Speaker 1: above that. But we want a default setting. The default 83 00:03:49,761 --> 00:03:52,932 Speaker 1: setting of the 10 weeks is half mom after that 84 00:03:52,951 --> 00:03:55,052 Speaker 1: and that's to send the signal to the dads to 85 00:03:55,276 --> 00:03:58,945 Speaker 1: that. Hey, you're important in the child raising. You're important 86 00:03:58,955 --> 00:04:01,365 Speaker 1: in the family and you should take up this leave 87 00:04:01,376 --> 00:04:02,246 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, 88 00:04:02,255 --> 00:04:04,796 Speaker 2: I think this is really good news for parents who 89 00:04:04,805 --> 00:04:06,755 Speaker 2: are really expecting a newborn. It comes at a very 90 00:04:06,766 --> 00:04:09,305 Speaker 2: handy time for them. Some of them asking why not earlier, right? 91 00:04:09,326 --> 00:04:11,466 Speaker 2: But I guess one of the concerns that we often 92 00:04:11,475 --> 00:04:14,356 Speaker 2: hear is that when taking the extra parental leave affect 93 00:04:14,365 --> 00:04:17,925 Speaker 2: their career prospects, like with their chances of promotion because 94 00:04:17,936 --> 00:04:19,846 Speaker 2: they will be spending more time outside of the office. 95 00:04:19,855 --> 00:04:21,966 Speaker 2: Would it affect how they progress in the company? 96 00:04:22,269 --> 00:04:24,409 Speaker 2: So I don't know, minister from your perspective, how do 97 00:04:24,420 --> 00:04:26,890 Speaker 2: you see it? Do you think that we should prioritize 98 00:04:26,899 --> 00:04:28,290 Speaker 2: certain things ourselves? 99 00:04:28,299 --> 00:04:30,988 Speaker 1: That is a very valid concern on the part of 100 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,140 Speaker 1: the employees? We also know there's a valid concern on 101 00:04:34,149 --> 00:04:37,140 Speaker 1: the part of the employers which they're worried about having 102 00:04:37,149 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: employees away from work. So the way we have been 103 00:04:40,170 --> 00:04:43,769 Speaker 1: approaching this from a policy viewpoint is that we want 104 00:04:43,779 --> 00:04:47,010 Speaker 1: to be productive on both fronts, productive at home and 105 00:04:47,019 --> 00:04:47,459 Speaker 1: in terms of 106 00:04:47,549 --> 00:04:50,510 Speaker 1: having Children and raising our TFR but productive for the 107 00:04:50,519 --> 00:04:54,079 Speaker 1: employers too. So how are we going to make that happen? 108 00:04:54,170 --> 00:04:58,209 Speaker 1: It really needs a mindset shift and it also needs 109 00:04:58,220 --> 00:05:01,510 Speaker 1: a building of new capabilities. So let me explain what 110 00:05:01,519 --> 00:05:04,899 Speaker 1: I mean in the old paradigm, it's like, ok, you're 111 00:05:04,910 --> 00:05:07,649 Speaker 1: taking time off, so you're away from the office and 112 00:05:07,660 --> 00:05:09,130 Speaker 1: it's bad for your work, right? 113 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,149 Speaker 1: But in today's day and age, especially with the younger parents, 114 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,489 Speaker 1: the millennials, in particular, Gen Z, they prioritize flexibility, they 115 00:05:17,500 --> 00:05:21,489 Speaker 1: prioritize the ability to balance work and family life. And 116 00:05:21,500 --> 00:05:24,950 Speaker 1: if you're an employer and not paying attention to this, 117 00:05:24,959 --> 00:05:29,708 Speaker 1: then you're going to have difficulty with talent recruitment and retention. 118 00:05:30,140 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: So ultimately, it is in the employer's long term interest 119 00:05:34,820 --> 00:05:38,779 Speaker 1: to be able to allow employees to take this kind 120 00:05:38,790 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: of leave and make the necessary arrangements because that will 121 00:05:43,170 --> 00:05:46,890 Speaker 1: enable you to attract and keep talent. If young parents 122 00:05:46,899 --> 00:05:48,829 Speaker 1: feel that ok, that my workplace is 123 00:05:49,238 --> 00:05:52,899 Speaker 1: begrudging my taking of time to spend with my family 124 00:05:52,910 --> 00:05:55,980 Speaker 1: and share parental leave, then maybe I shouldn't work here, 125 00:05:55,988 --> 00:05:58,750 Speaker 1: maybe I should go somewhere else. That's more family friendly. 126 00:05:58,899 --> 00:06:01,549 Speaker 1: So the key thing for the employers though was how 127 00:06:01,559 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: can we help them to make it work? It shouldn't 128 00:06:04,609 --> 00:06:06,750 Speaker 1: become a win lose. We're trying to see how we 129 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:08,869 Speaker 1: can make it a win win. And there are few things. 130 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,170 Speaker 1: One is, it's government paid. So the employer doesn't have 131 00:06:12,178 --> 00:06:13,940 Speaker 1: to pick up the tax. That's right. 132 00:06:14,309 --> 00:06:17,190 Speaker 1: And with the money that is freed up the cost savings, 133 00:06:17,220 --> 00:06:20,769 Speaker 1: the employer can either employ somebody else to cover for 134 00:06:20,779 --> 00:06:23,369 Speaker 1: the time that the parents are away or maybe if 135 00:06:23,380 --> 00:06:26,219 Speaker 1: the colleagues are taking up the jobs that the parents 136 00:06:26,230 --> 00:06:28,750 Speaker 1: can't do for that time, you pay the colleagues so 137 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,049 Speaker 1: that they get extra pay for doing extra work, which 138 00:06:31,059 --> 00:06:33,649 Speaker 1: is fair. So that cost part is one thing. But 139 00:06:33,660 --> 00:06:37,558 Speaker 1: the other thing is that early notice from the employees, 140 00:06:37,570 --> 00:06:42,170 Speaker 1: the parents is very important. Currently, I think for maternity leave, 141 00:06:42,365 --> 00:06:44,955 Speaker 1: you only need to give one week's notice by law 142 00:06:45,096 --> 00:06:47,664 Speaker 1: and for paternity leave, we don't have a notice period 143 00:06:47,675 --> 00:06:50,515 Speaker 1: built in. So for this one, we will be building 144 00:06:50,526 --> 00:06:53,346 Speaker 1: in a four week notice period. This is so that 145 00:06:53,355 --> 00:06:56,726 Speaker 1: at the minimum, the employer has four weeks to plan, 146 00:06:56,865 --> 00:06:58,936 Speaker 1: but we really want to go out there and encourage 147 00:06:58,946 --> 00:07:02,175 Speaker 1: the employees the moment. You know, you're having a child 148 00:07:02,186 --> 00:07:04,515 Speaker 1: on the way, please tell your employers as soon as 149 00:07:04,526 --> 00:07:07,674 Speaker 1: possible because then that gives them time to be able 150 00:07:07,686 --> 00:07:10,115 Speaker 1: to plan, find the people who can cover your work 151 00:07:10,282 --> 00:07:13,462 Speaker 1: and then also help whoever's covering to on board, tell them, 152 00:07:13,471 --> 00:07:16,361 Speaker 1: do the handover properly and assist. And if you're going 153 00:07:16,372 --> 00:07:19,752 Speaker 1: to take the leave flexibly work out with the employer 154 00:07:19,761 --> 00:07:23,381 Speaker 1: way beforehand, it makes things so much easier. Yeah, but 155 00:07:23,391 --> 00:07:27,342 Speaker 1: some people would argue that certain jobs are so specialized, right? 156 00:07:27,351 --> 00:07:30,022 Speaker 1: That you can't just say for example, bring on a 157 00:07:30,032 --> 00:07:33,721 Speaker 1: contract worker to take on that role, even four weeks 158 00:07:33,731 --> 00:07:38,022 Speaker 1: notice may not be enough for a company to replace you. 159 00:07:38,369 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: So in those situations. How can companies make this arrangement 160 00:07:42,529 --> 00:07:45,190 Speaker 1: a lot easier without you having to feel the guilt 161 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:46,149 Speaker 1: of taking 162 00:07:46,420 --> 00:07:50,179 Speaker 1: that shared parental leave or the extra paternity leave? Yeah, 163 00:07:50,190 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: that's a great question. So it brings me to the 164 00:07:52,010 --> 00:07:56,859 Speaker 1: other point about the employers also honing up capabilities within 165 00:07:56,869 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: their hr to be able to deal with this kind 166 00:07:59,649 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: of flexibility. It's obviously going to depend on the job sector. 167 00:08:04,869 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: It's easier if it's the kind of job that anyone 168 00:08:08,489 --> 00:08:11,549 Speaker 1: can do, right. But let's say it's a specialist job, 169 00:08:11,570 --> 00:08:14,019 Speaker 1: you're professional. For example, I used to be in legal 170 00:08:14,029 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: practice and sometimes 171 00:08:15,691 --> 00:08:17,962 Speaker 1: you're working on a case but a lawyer has to 172 00:08:17,971 --> 00:08:20,601 Speaker 1: take leave and another lawyer has to come in. It 173 00:08:20,611 --> 00:08:23,791 Speaker 1: is doable, it is doable, but you have to brief 174 00:08:23,802 --> 00:08:26,941 Speaker 1: the other person in the case of let's say you 175 00:08:26,951 --> 00:08:30,071 Speaker 1: are working in security, security companies, tell me a lot 176 00:08:30,082 --> 00:08:32,552 Speaker 1: of it is digitalized. So some of it can be 177 00:08:32,562 --> 00:08:35,552 Speaker 1: done remotely. But if you think about it, even the 178 00:08:35,562 --> 00:08:38,791 Speaker 1: hospitals now are starting to be able to do flexible 179 00:08:38,802 --> 00:08:42,030 Speaker 1: work arrangements for nurses. And that is such an intensive 180 00:08:42,041 --> 00:08:44,872 Speaker 1: personal care type of job. But even that 181 00:08:44,963 --> 00:08:46,583 Speaker 1: they are able to do because they do things like 182 00:08:46,593 --> 00:08:49,624 Speaker 1: flexi load or flexi time. That's right. Flexi work is 183 00:08:49,633 --> 00:08:52,633 Speaker 1: not just about location, right? That's right. So flexible work 184 00:08:52,643 --> 00:08:56,083 Speaker 1: arrangements does not equal work from home. It could mean 185 00:08:56,093 --> 00:08:58,863 Speaker 1: work from home. Yes, but it could also mean coming 186 00:08:58,874 --> 00:09:01,233 Speaker 1: in on certain days and certain days not, it could 187 00:09:01,244 --> 00:09:04,382 Speaker 1: also mean working remotely be by project. So there are 188 00:09:04,393 --> 00:09:06,624 Speaker 1: many ways to do it. But this really means that 189 00:09:06,633 --> 00:09:10,484 Speaker 1: companies have to invest in that hr capability because good 190 00:09:10,494 --> 00:09:13,383 Speaker 1: hr would be able to see how to do this, 191 00:09:13,393 --> 00:09:14,142 Speaker 1: how to manage 192 00:09:14,434 --> 00:09:17,676 Speaker 1: this and do the replacements and do it seamlessly. So 193 00:09:17,684 --> 00:09:19,176 Speaker 1: more work for our hr friends. 194 00:09:19,184 --> 00:09:21,526 Speaker 2: Yeah. You know the policy itself, I mean, I hear 195 00:09:21,535 --> 00:09:24,296 Speaker 2: what minister says about the employers having to make the 196 00:09:24,306 --> 00:09:27,776 Speaker 2: policy work implemented in a way where people can receive 197 00:09:27,785 --> 00:09:29,695 Speaker 2: it and take it with a peace of mind. Right? 198 00:09:29,765 --> 00:09:32,156 Speaker 2: I'm just wondering about like people who, you know, they 199 00:09:32,166 --> 00:09:34,276 Speaker 2: are given a very supportive environment but yet they just 200 00:09:34,285 --> 00:09:36,656 Speaker 2: don't take it like how we see the parental leave, 201 00:09:36,666 --> 00:09:39,285 Speaker 2: the fathers, they don't, a lot of them paternity, right? 202 00:09:39,296 --> 00:09:41,276 Speaker 2: A lot of them don't take it even though it's there. 203 00:09:41,285 --> 00:09:43,416 Speaker 1: Yeah. So good point. The key 204 00:09:43,668 --> 00:09:47,648 Speaker 1: to having good take up is actually that it becomes 205 00:09:47,658 --> 00:09:50,407 Speaker 1: a norm because once it becomes a norm, it is 206 00:09:50,418 --> 00:09:53,088 Speaker 1: no different in a way from taking your annual leave. 207 00:09:53,218 --> 00:09:55,328 Speaker 1: Nobody bats an eyelid if you take an annual leave 208 00:09:55,338 --> 00:09:58,477 Speaker 1: and why? Because people recognize that you do need a 209 00:09:58,487 --> 00:10:01,296 Speaker 1: break from work and that it's important for a person's 210 00:10:01,307 --> 00:10:03,757 Speaker 1: general well being to have time off from work. Right. 211 00:10:04,028 --> 00:10:06,208 Speaker 1: So if you think about it in the context of families, 212 00:10:06,218 --> 00:10:08,447 Speaker 1: what we're striving to do is to make it more 213 00:10:08,458 --> 00:10:11,427 Speaker 1: normal when you have a young child for parents to 214 00:10:11,437 --> 00:10:12,686 Speaker 1: take time off. So 215 00:10:12,780 --> 00:10:16,479 Speaker 1: that employers and colleagues don't hold it against the parent. 216 00:10:16,570 --> 00:10:18,900 Speaker 1: And that also means that the parent has to do 217 00:10:18,909 --> 00:10:21,369 Speaker 1: their part by giving early notice, et cetera. And this 218 00:10:21,380 --> 00:10:23,689 Speaker 1: comes back to the point that you made when we 219 00:10:23,700 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: first put in paternity leave, take up rate was only 220 00:10:27,450 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: about 25%. Then. Now currently it's about 50% closer to 53. 221 00:10:33,010 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: Many dads said they wanted to take the leave. But 222 00:10:35,289 --> 00:10:38,419 Speaker 1: you know, the immediate supervisor was frowning and saying, oh, 223 00:10:38,429 --> 00:10:40,718 Speaker 1: this may affect your work, who's going to cover for 224 00:10:40,729 --> 00:10:41,809 Speaker 1: you when you're away. 225 00:10:42,052 --> 00:10:43,992 Speaker 1: That's where the mindset part comes in because if you 226 00:10:44,002 --> 00:10:47,872 Speaker 1: have a supportive supervisor, the supervisor's response should be great. 227 00:10:47,881 --> 00:10:50,111 Speaker 1: Very happy for you. Ok? Now let's talk about who's 228 00:10:50,122 --> 00:10:51,992 Speaker 1: going to cover your work. Let's see how we can 229 00:10:52,002 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: make this happen and don't sort of give off these 230 00:10:54,971 --> 00:10:58,271 Speaker 1: subtle signals and vibes that, you know, somehow you're going 231 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:00,872 Speaker 1: to be marked down or whatever, which will not happen 232 00:11:00,881 --> 00:11:04,391 Speaker 1: if it becomes a normal thing and it's just part 233 00:11:04,401 --> 00:11:06,910 Speaker 1: and parcel just as in the same way guys currently 234 00:11:06,921 --> 00:11:09,551 Speaker 1: now have to take time off to do reservists, for example. 235 00:11:09,562 --> 00:11:11,231 Speaker 1: So one of the things that I hear 236 00:11:11,323 --> 00:11:13,653 Speaker 1: people talk about and I being a mom myself, your 237 00:11:13,664 --> 00:11:15,723 Speaker 1: first child, people would just go, oh, I'm so happy 238 00:11:15,734 --> 00:11:17,424 Speaker 1: for you and let's try and make this work for 239 00:11:17,434 --> 00:11:20,294 Speaker 1: everybody win this situation. But we know that when people 240 00:11:20,304 --> 00:11:23,184 Speaker 1: have Children or babies, they kind of pop them out 241 00:11:23,193 --> 00:11:26,213 Speaker 1: in succession. Most of us do, right. Every one year, 242 00:11:26,223 --> 00:11:28,064 Speaker 1: two years and you just want to get it over 243 00:11:28,073 --> 00:11:30,943 Speaker 1: and done with. So I've also heard people go, oh, 244 00:11:30,953 --> 00:11:33,744 Speaker 1: she's pregnant again like this is her third while she's 245 00:11:33,754 --> 00:11:36,463 Speaker 1: pregnant again. So while they are supportive with you, taking 246 00:11:36,473 --> 00:11:38,773 Speaker 1: that time off and be with your family and they 247 00:11:38,783 --> 00:11:40,504 Speaker 1: want to be there to support you. 248 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,619 Speaker 1: It's hard, I guess operationally if you're that one worker 249 00:11:44,630 --> 00:11:47,049 Speaker 1: has like three Children or three kids in a row 250 00:11:47,229 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: and maybe when you come back, your career may not 251 00:11:49,330 --> 00:11:51,609 Speaker 1: be the way you expect it to be on that 252 00:11:51,619 --> 00:11:54,289 Speaker 1: trajectory that you would like it to be as a mom. 253 00:11:54,299 --> 00:11:56,909 Speaker 1: I really feel it. I feel that now for a 254 00:11:56,919 --> 00:11:59,260 Speaker 1: lot of dads, they are also worried that would happen 255 00:11:59,270 --> 00:12:01,919 Speaker 1: because now that they are being offered more time off 256 00:12:01,929 --> 00:12:05,119 Speaker 1: as well. So again, it comes back to how well 257 00:12:05,130 --> 00:12:08,819 Speaker 1: an organization manages this, the way I would approach it 258 00:12:08,830 --> 00:12:09,650 Speaker 1: would be this 259 00:12:09,844 --> 00:12:11,864 Speaker 1: if I were the parent and I had to take 260 00:12:11,875 --> 00:12:14,825 Speaker 1: this time off. One of the things I would feel 261 00:12:14,835 --> 00:12:17,765 Speaker 1: like I should do is when I come back from 262 00:12:17,775 --> 00:12:20,424 Speaker 1: this leave and I'm able to start working again. If 263 00:12:20,434 --> 00:12:22,825 Speaker 1: some of my other colleagues need to take time off, 264 00:12:22,835 --> 00:12:26,465 Speaker 1: not necessarily for parenting because we nowadays have colleagues with 265 00:12:26,474 --> 00:12:29,205 Speaker 1: aged parents, they may need to take time off for 266 00:12:29,215 --> 00:12:32,223 Speaker 1: their parents. Some people take time off for their fur kids. 267 00:12:32,315 --> 00:12:34,385 Speaker 1: You know, they just need time away from the office. 268 00:12:34,395 --> 00:12:36,815 Speaker 1: Then you step up and you say I cover for you. 269 00:12:36,825 --> 00:12:38,405 Speaker 1: I mean you covered for me when I was away. 270 00:12:38,414 --> 00:12:38,825 Speaker 1: Let me see 271 00:12:38,929 --> 00:12:40,669 Speaker 1: what I can do to help you. We need this 272 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: kind of collegiate workplace, right? The other thing obviously would 273 00:12:44,330 --> 00:12:48,848 Speaker 1: be expectations if you take time off and really can't 274 00:12:48,859 --> 00:12:51,849 Speaker 1: do the same pace of work and a quantity and 275 00:12:51,859 --> 00:12:54,030 Speaker 1: volume of work, then it may be that when you 276 00:12:54,039 --> 00:12:57,539 Speaker 1: come back, you may not be progressing quite as fast, 277 00:12:57,549 --> 00:13:00,989 Speaker 1: which is the reality, right? You can't because you wouldn't 278 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,789 Speaker 1: in the office, the office doing that work. But then 279 00:13:03,799 --> 00:13:06,729 Speaker 1: you accept that you say that, but I will still continue. 280 00:13:06,739 --> 00:13:07,909 Speaker 1: And from the point that 281 00:13:08,015 --> 00:13:11,294 Speaker 1: you continue, the company recognizes that effort. So then again, 282 00:13:11,304 --> 00:13:14,385 Speaker 1: it becomes the norm, people get uncomfortable when they feel 283 00:13:14,395 --> 00:13:17,835 Speaker 1: that somehow I'm either not pulling my weight or losing out. 284 00:13:17,844 --> 00:13:20,275 Speaker 1: But if it becomes the norm and you fit this 285 00:13:20,284 --> 00:13:23,755 Speaker 1: into the company practice and hr procedures, then it's like 286 00:13:23,765 --> 00:13:26,155 Speaker 1: everybody is doing this, it's a normal thing. So it's fine, 287 00:13:26,265 --> 00:13:28,474 Speaker 1: but that give and take is very important. So it 288 00:13:28,484 --> 00:13:31,005 Speaker 1: can't be just about I'm gonna happily take all my 289 00:13:31,015 --> 00:13:33,135 Speaker 1: leave and I don't care about my colleagues and when 290 00:13:33,205 --> 00:13:35,385 Speaker 1: it's their time, I'm just going to you on your 291 00:13:35,395 --> 00:13:35,945 Speaker 1: own buddy. 292 00:13:35,955 --> 00:13:36,505 Speaker 2: That's right. 293 00:13:37,099 --> 00:13:39,570 Speaker 2: Observing what people say on social media and then everybody 294 00:13:39,580 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 2: is now wondering like do we get other kinds of 295 00:13:41,450 --> 00:13:42,150 Speaker 2: leave as well? 296 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,090 Speaker 1: You mentioned for kids, people with elderly 297 00:13:45,099 --> 00:13:45,979 Speaker 2: child care 298 00:13:46,030 --> 00:13:47,909 Speaker 1: leave? Yeah, I would like more childcare leave. 299 00:13:48,650 --> 00:13:51,219 Speaker 2: Yeah. So is there any other policies in place 300 00:13:51,239 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: in the works for consideration? Well, two things on the 301 00:13:53,969 --> 00:13:57,659 Speaker 1: leave front, we've just done this very big move. So obviously, 302 00:13:57,669 --> 00:14:01,049 Speaker 1: we need to see how it works whilst implemented and 303 00:14:01,059 --> 00:14:03,989 Speaker 1: we have to observe and make sure that it actually goes. Well, 304 00:14:04,130 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: I don't think that at the moment we 305 00:14:06,184 --> 00:14:09,065 Speaker 1: have any plans to increase other types of leave, but 306 00:14:09,075 --> 00:14:13,234 Speaker 1: that said we made a very significant complementary move, which 307 00:14:13,244 --> 00:14:17,244 Speaker 1: was the tripartite guidelines on flexible work arrangements because it's 308 00:14:17,255 --> 00:14:20,155 Speaker 1: not possible to legislate for every single type of leave. 309 00:14:20,335 --> 00:14:23,244 Speaker 1: And if you do that, you end up being too prescriptive. 310 00:14:23,484 --> 00:14:26,924 Speaker 1: But the flexible work arrangements were really designed to get 311 00:14:26,934 --> 00:14:30,854 Speaker 1: around the times when you need leave. Suddenly something crops 312 00:14:30,864 --> 00:14:34,025 Speaker 1: up at hoc basis or whatever it is. If you 313 00:14:34,034 --> 00:14:35,135 Speaker 1: need to take a 314 00:14:35,469 --> 00:14:38,969 Speaker 1: to the doctors, maybe you can take the morning off 315 00:14:38,979 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: and then the rest of the afternoon, either work from 316 00:14:40,849 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: home or just make sure that that project is completed 317 00:14:43,770 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: or that piece of work is completed so that the 318 00:14:45,849 --> 00:14:48,809 Speaker 1: work gets done. So that's where the FWAS come in 319 00:14:48,820 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: flexible work arrangements with the new shared parental leave. Will 320 00:14:53,450 --> 00:14:56,580 Speaker 1: this in a way, I guess also make employers change 321 00:14:56,590 --> 00:14:59,409 Speaker 1: the way that they hire? Because for example, I'm just 322 00:14:59,419 --> 00:15:02,729 Speaker 1: wondering right, if you have many would be or potential 323 00:15:02,739 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: young parents in your team 324 00:15:04,580 --> 00:15:07,530 Speaker 1: and then a head count comes out. I'm guessing that 325 00:15:07,539 --> 00:15:09,609 Speaker 1: like some companies will go, I would like more diversity. 326 00:15:09,619 --> 00:15:11,780 Speaker 1: I don't want too many parents on my team because 327 00:15:11,789 --> 00:15:14,020 Speaker 1: then that would mean that at some point everybody is 328 00:15:14,030 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: just going to be gone and away and then I 329 00:15:16,210 --> 00:15:18,429 Speaker 1: would have to pick up the slack, right? Would that 330 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,669 Speaker 1: also create some form of, I guess invisible discrimination against 331 00:15:21,679 --> 00:15:23,479 Speaker 1: people who are planning for a family because now that 332 00:15:23,489 --> 00:15:25,619 Speaker 1: we know that there are more benefits that are coming 333 00:15:25,630 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: for them. If an employer did do that and really 334 00:15:28,890 --> 00:15:32,229 Speaker 1: did discriminate against such employees, then they might bump up 335 00:15:32,239 --> 00:15:33,270 Speaker 1: against the new 336 00:15:33,393 --> 00:15:37,473 Speaker 1: place fairness legislation that we are bringing into parliament and 337 00:15:37,484 --> 00:15:40,434 Speaker 1: into force. So I will be very careful if employers 338 00:15:40,443 --> 00:15:43,054 Speaker 1: did that. But if I'm an employer also have to 339 00:15:43,064 --> 00:15:46,263 Speaker 1: approach it from this way. The underlying assumption of that 340 00:15:46,273 --> 00:15:50,453 Speaker 1: question is that ok? It is these married couples who 341 00:15:50,463 --> 00:15:52,854 Speaker 1: are going to have Children who will be needing that leave. 342 00:15:52,864 --> 00:15:57,203 Speaker 1: So maybe I'll focus on employing singles. But what's to 343 00:15:57,213 --> 00:15:58,773 Speaker 1: say that you're single is not going to get married 344 00:15:58,783 --> 00:16:00,013 Speaker 1: in the next year and then 345 00:16:00,098 --> 00:16:02,697 Speaker 1: have a kid in the other year. You have no idea. Right. 346 00:16:02,708 --> 00:16:05,437 Speaker 1: That that may happen. What happens. And don't forget when 347 00:16:05,447 --> 00:16:09,028 Speaker 1: I talked about younger people enjoying that or wanting that flexibility. 348 00:16:09,057 --> 00:16:12,187 Speaker 1: Your other employee who may not be married may not 349 00:16:12,197 --> 00:16:13,997 Speaker 1: have a young kid, but then the dog needs to 350 00:16:14,007 --> 00:16:15,918 Speaker 1: go to the vet or the cat needs to be 351 00:16:15,927 --> 00:16:17,927 Speaker 1: taken for some kind of treatment. They're going to want 352 00:16:17,937 --> 00:16:20,408 Speaker 1: to have leave for that too, maybe not 10 weeks, 353 00:16:20,478 --> 00:16:22,627 Speaker 1: but they still are going to need that. Then. What 354 00:16:22,638 --> 00:16:26,687 Speaker 1: about those who have aging parents or grandparents, the 355 00:16:26,802 --> 00:16:31,931 Speaker 1: global norm now is that move that desire for flexibility? 356 00:16:32,291 --> 00:16:37,642 Speaker 1: So any employer who's not able to design the workplace 357 00:16:37,651 --> 00:16:40,062 Speaker 1: to deal with, this is going to have a problem 358 00:16:40,072 --> 00:16:42,851 Speaker 1: because sooner or later employees are going to say I 359 00:16:42,861 --> 00:16:45,531 Speaker 1: want flexibility and I'm not getting it. So maybe I 360 00:16:45,541 --> 00:16:47,661 Speaker 1: should go somewhere else, find someone else who will give 361 00:16:47,692 --> 00:16:50,581 Speaker 1: me that right. So the message is actually if you 362 00:16:50,591 --> 00:16:53,442 Speaker 1: want your company to be productive, you want your employee 363 00:16:53,796 --> 00:16:56,685 Speaker 1: to be happy and want to continue working for you. 364 00:16:56,955 --> 00:16:59,625 Speaker 1: This is an issue that you must grapple with. The 365 00:16:59,635 --> 00:17:01,645 Speaker 1: shared parental leave is only part of it, but there's 366 00:17:01,656 --> 00:17:05,205 Speaker 1: a much bigger phenomenon which is that need for flexibility 367 00:17:05,306 --> 00:17:07,566 Speaker 1: and the ability to design work in a way that 368 00:17:07,576 --> 00:17:09,446 Speaker 1: it can be picked up by somebody else or it 369 00:17:09,455 --> 00:17:11,484 Speaker 1: can be done off site and all of that, 370 00:17:11,505 --> 00:17:14,725 Speaker 2: I think the point about flexibility and how employers need 371 00:17:14,734 --> 00:17:16,975 Speaker 2: to implement it. For many of the employers, I have 372 00:17:16,984 --> 00:17:19,495 Speaker 2: spoken to a lot of them step up, right. But 373 00:17:19,505 --> 00:17:20,125 Speaker 2: at the same time, also 374 00:17:20,208 --> 00:17:22,229 Speaker 2: some of them are thinking of, you know, what maybe 375 00:17:22,239 --> 00:17:24,308 Speaker 2: I need to move out because I can't meet the 376 00:17:24,318 --> 00:17:27,019 Speaker 2: expectations here. And I know that's not the intent of 377 00:17:27,029 --> 00:17:29,208 Speaker 2: the policy for the companies to shift out because we 378 00:17:29,218 --> 00:17:31,029 Speaker 2: want them to stay here. But at the same time, 379 00:17:31,038 --> 00:17:36,009 Speaker 2: how can businesses remain competitive, productive even when implementing flexible 380 00:17:36,019 --> 00:17:36,529 Speaker 2: work? 381 00:17:36,538 --> 00:17:39,047 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a very important part of that is 382 00:17:39,058 --> 00:17:44,109 Speaker 1: having conversation with your employees. It's to say to the employees, hey, look, guys, 383 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,859 Speaker 1: this is what the company is facing. These are our constraints. 384 00:17:47,384 --> 00:17:49,572 Speaker 1: I really want to be able to make sure that 385 00:17:49,583 --> 00:17:51,723 Speaker 1: you can take your leave. But at the same time, 386 00:17:51,734 --> 00:17:53,833 Speaker 1: I have to be sure that this works can be covered. 387 00:17:53,843 --> 00:17:56,093 Speaker 1: Let's sit down and talk about this and see how 388 00:17:56,104 --> 00:17:59,413 Speaker 1: we can work it. And also I appreciate that companies 389 00:17:59,423 --> 00:18:02,572 Speaker 1: do need to have people in the workplace in order 390 00:18:02,583 --> 00:18:05,883 Speaker 1: to build a corporate culture in order to do training 391 00:18:05,894 --> 00:18:09,263 Speaker 1: in order for mentorship and so on. So it really 392 00:18:09,273 --> 00:18:12,374 Speaker 1: comes back to that. How do you design your workplace 393 00:18:12,384 --> 00:18:13,534 Speaker 1: to allow this to happen? 394 00:18:13,790 --> 00:18:15,869 Speaker 1: And it's really critical to have that conversation with the 395 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,079 Speaker 1: employees so that the employees also feel invested in this 396 00:18:20,260 --> 00:18:21,689 Speaker 1: and want to make it work with 397 00:18:21,699 --> 00:18:21,910 Speaker 1: you. 398 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,300 Speaker 2: I think this thing about the norm, right? Companies need 399 00:18:24,310 --> 00:18:26,688 Speaker 2: to think about how to create that norm for the employees. 400 00:18:26,699 --> 00:18:29,369 Speaker 2: It's not just about meeting the regulations or the guidelines, right? 401 00:18:29,380 --> 00:18:31,969 Speaker 2: But it's about making it a better place for everyone. 402 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,430 Speaker 1: Mom has a few modules and packages for this that 403 00:18:35,439 --> 00:18:36,510 Speaker 1: they can tap on, 404 00:18:36,916 --> 00:18:40,475 Speaker 1: especially the SME companies would find this helpful. So be 405 00:18:40,484 --> 00:18:43,995 Speaker 1: good for them to approach the SME Centers and see 406 00:18:44,005 --> 00:18:47,316 Speaker 1: what type of hr support is available. And they have 407 00:18:47,326 --> 00:18:50,176 Speaker 1: modules on how to design your workplace, how to manage 408 00:18:50,186 --> 00:18:52,955 Speaker 1: flexible work arrangements and things like that. Be good for 409 00:18:52,965 --> 00:18:55,176 Speaker 1: them to explore that because I would think that cost 410 00:18:55,186 --> 00:18:57,514 Speaker 1: will be a very big issue for SME S right. 411 00:18:57,526 --> 00:18:59,936 Speaker 1: They feel the ripple effects a lot harder when 412 00:19:00,041 --> 00:19:02,291 Speaker 1: you have a staff of like 20 then one or 413 00:19:02,302 --> 00:19:05,871 Speaker 1: two people having to take this extra leave and to 414 00:19:05,881 --> 00:19:08,432 Speaker 1: be there for their families. But then it's hard for 415 00:19:08,442 --> 00:19:11,702 Speaker 1: them to replace at short notice, which is why giving 416 00:19:11,712 --> 00:19:15,462 Speaker 1: more notice is very important for minimum but longer if possible. 417 00:19:15,842 --> 00:19:19,001 Speaker 1: So is that also why when the full shared parental 418 00:19:19,011 --> 00:19:20,952 Speaker 1: leave will be kicked in that will be in 2026? 419 00:19:20,962 --> 00:19:23,061 Speaker 1: Is that why we are also taking a bit longer 420 00:19:23,332 --> 00:19:25,182 Speaker 1: to get to that? Because we also want to help 421 00:19:25,192 --> 00:19:26,452 Speaker 1: businesses to be able to 422 00:19:26,729 --> 00:19:29,729 Speaker 1: adjust their operations to finally get to that state? Yes, 423 00:19:29,739 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: that's exactly right? Because if it were just up to us, 424 00:19:32,650 --> 00:19:34,500 Speaker 1: we would say, yeah, why don't we announce it and 425 00:19:34,510 --> 00:19:36,670 Speaker 1: just say now and everybody can take it straight away. 426 00:19:36,739 --> 00:19:39,949 Speaker 1: But when we spoke to the Singapore National Employers Federation 427 00:19:39,959 --> 00:19:42,188 Speaker 1: and some of the other employers, they said that it 428 00:19:42,199 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: would be challenging for companies or for employers and in 429 00:19:45,890 --> 00:19:49,530 Speaker 1: particular for SME S. So their ask was, can be 430 00:19:49,540 --> 00:19:50,949 Speaker 1: implemented in stages. 431 00:19:51,251 --> 00:19:53,802 Speaker 1: That was the first ask. The second ask was, can 432 00:19:53,811 --> 00:19:57,202 Speaker 1: you also defer the implementation date to give some buffer 433 00:19:57,212 --> 00:20:00,982 Speaker 1: between announcement and actual implementation so that people have time 434 00:20:00,991 --> 00:20:04,362 Speaker 1: to put arrangements in place. And that's why it's staged 435 00:20:04,371 --> 00:20:06,131 Speaker 1: out this way. That's right because I have friends who 436 00:20:06,141 --> 00:20:08,802 Speaker 1: are giving birth soon and then they don't qualify for that. 437 00:20:09,011 --> 00:20:11,151 Speaker 1: But I did tell them that they can consider another one. 438 00:20:11,161 --> 00:20:14,921 Speaker 1: Then that's true. The entitlement they could. Yeah. So that's 439 00:20:14,932 --> 00:20:15,251 Speaker 1: what we did 440 00:20:15,443 --> 00:20:19,644 Speaker 1: the implementation to the first of April 2025 and it's staged. 441 00:20:19,654 --> 00:20:22,913 Speaker 1: So next year will be three weeks and three weeks 442 00:20:22,923 --> 00:20:25,274 Speaker 1: or six weeks altogether, three to mother, three to dad. 443 00:20:25,433 --> 00:20:27,423 Speaker 1: And then the full 10 weeks will kick in in 444 00:20:27,433 --> 00:20:30,553 Speaker 1: 2026 5 weeks to mom, five weeks to dad, but 445 00:20:30,563 --> 00:20:33,744 Speaker 1: they can reallocate amongst themselves if they need to. It 446 00:20:33,754 --> 00:20:35,494 Speaker 1: sounds that like at the end of this, there's a 447 00:20:35,504 --> 00:20:38,293 Speaker 1: lot of extra work that our hr practitioners will need 448 00:20:38,303 --> 00:20:39,573 Speaker 1: to consider. Like 449 00:20:39,666 --> 00:20:43,765 Speaker 1: say redesigning how hr departments think how their workflow is 450 00:20:43,776 --> 00:20:46,086 Speaker 1: and also for companies, what are some of the business 451 00:20:46,095 --> 00:20:49,205 Speaker 1: realities that they can try and adjust along the way? 452 00:20:49,316 --> 00:20:51,105 Speaker 1: And we keep going back to this, which is, is 453 00:20:51,115 --> 00:20:54,125 Speaker 1: a big mindset shift, right? To see that work is 454 00:20:54,135 --> 00:20:56,845 Speaker 1: not just work but that it needs to come together 455 00:20:56,855 --> 00:20:59,686 Speaker 1: with everything else. And I think the workforce is calling 456 00:20:59,696 --> 00:21:01,994 Speaker 1: for more of this work life balance. And I feel 457 00:21:02,005 --> 00:21:03,885 Speaker 1: that it's all steps into the right direction, 458 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: how we will get there. I guess that takes time 459 00:21:06,569 --> 00:21:09,069 Speaker 1: to effect change and everything. What is your hope like? 460 00:21:09,079 --> 00:21:11,319 Speaker 1: Do you hope to see this happen? The whole full 461 00:21:11,329 --> 00:21:14,688 Speaker 1: mindset shift within five years? 10 years or even a generation? 462 00:21:14,699 --> 00:21:16,930 Speaker 1: Like I feel that it might take a generation or 463 00:21:16,939 --> 00:21:19,379 Speaker 1: generation would be way too long, very long. But I 464 00:21:19,390 --> 00:21:22,599 Speaker 1: don't know, I actually, it may be faster than you think. Ok, 465 00:21:22,609 --> 00:21:25,500 Speaker 1: because if you think about it, ok, way back when 466 00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: I started practice, which was like ya ago, the work 467 00:21:29,290 --> 00:21:30,449 Speaker 1: there was 9 to 5, 468 00:21:30,595 --> 00:21:34,205 Speaker 1: literally you work and also half day on Saturday. But 469 00:21:34,215 --> 00:21:36,936 Speaker 1: when you left work, you left work. And this would 470 00:21:36,946 --> 00:21:40,215 Speaker 1: have been back in the 19 eighties that changed in 471 00:21:40,225 --> 00:21:44,895 Speaker 1: the 19 nineties when digitalization started to take place and 472 00:21:44,906 --> 00:21:48,984 Speaker 1: emails crept into people's lives. You could still leave that 473 00:21:48,994 --> 00:21:52,166 Speaker 1: at work, but it slowly began to creep into home. 474 00:21:52,205 --> 00:21:55,735 Speaker 1: Then after that, in the two thousands and this happened. 475 00:21:55,744 --> 00:21:56,906 Speaker 1: I think primarily with the I 476 00:21:57,332 --> 00:22:01,812 Speaker 1: Convergence, your phone, your email, all the other things got 477 00:22:01,821 --> 00:22:05,491 Speaker 1: collapsed into one device. So you basically was like carrying 478 00:22:05,501 --> 00:22:08,732 Speaker 1: your entire electronic briefcase around with you and the work 479 00:22:08,741 --> 00:22:14,212 Speaker 1: practices changed. And then in the 2010, it became like 480 00:22:14,222 --> 00:22:17,052 Speaker 1: almost you're working around the clock all the time and 481 00:22:17,171 --> 00:22:20,972 Speaker 1: you're connected with people in other countries in other time zones. 482 00:22:21,031 --> 00:22:23,442 Speaker 1: And I think people just felt that I 483 00:22:23,547 --> 00:22:25,897 Speaker 1: you can't breathe, it's all too much. And then you 484 00:22:25,907 --> 00:22:29,767 Speaker 1: have the pandemic where everything just came to this shuddering halt. 485 00:22:30,147 --> 00:22:34,277 Speaker 1: And then after that, you had the quiet quitting and 486 00:22:34,287 --> 00:22:36,848 Speaker 1: you had the life flat. You can see how that 487 00:22:36,858 --> 00:22:39,748 Speaker 1: trajectory is taking place and it seems to be taking 488 00:22:39,758 --> 00:22:43,968 Speaker 1: place because of the pace picking up faster and faster. 489 00:22:44,267 --> 00:22:47,147 Speaker 1: And after a while it's just no longer sustainable and 490 00:22:47,157 --> 00:22:49,536 Speaker 1: everyone just went. That's right. On the other hand, you 491 00:22:49,547 --> 00:22:49,927 Speaker 1: also don't want 492 00:22:50,023 --> 00:22:52,463 Speaker 1: to have the other pendulum swing where I do everything 493 00:22:52,473 --> 00:22:54,404 Speaker 1: from home when I don't come back to the office. 494 00:22:54,413 --> 00:22:57,843 Speaker 1: So we need to find that right balance and that's 495 00:22:57,854 --> 00:23:00,443 Speaker 1: what I hope will happen in a few years. And 496 00:23:00,453 --> 00:23:02,484 Speaker 1: the last thing we want obviously is people taking this 497 00:23:02,573 --> 00:23:05,833 Speaker 1: leave but still working from home while they are on 498 00:23:05,843 --> 00:23:07,884 Speaker 1: leave because that it's meant for them to bond with 499 00:23:07,894 --> 00:23:09,583 Speaker 1: their Children. We don't want that to happen. We want 500 00:23:09,593 --> 00:23:10,943 Speaker 1: them to be there for their Children. 501 00:23:10,953 --> 00:23:10,963 Speaker 2: I 502 00:23:10,973 --> 00:23:13,422 Speaker 2: actually have one more question that just came to my mind, right? 503 00:23:13,433 --> 00:23:15,973 Speaker 2: For minister. So I'm asking this on behalf maybe of 504 00:23:15,984 --> 00:23:16,413 Speaker 2: a small group 505 00:23:16,500 --> 00:23:20,250 Speaker 2: people in Singapore, the self-employed, right? Because people who are self-employed, 506 00:23:20,260 --> 00:23:22,859 Speaker 2: they may have family plans as well and the policy 507 00:23:22,869 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 2: apply to them 508 00:23:23,530 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: as well. 509 00:23:24,050 --> 00:23:26,780 Speaker 1: Yes, it does. It applies to self-employed and also applies 510 00:23:26,790 --> 00:23:29,270 Speaker 1: to gig workers, but they will have to show evidence 511 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,829 Speaker 1: of their employment and what they were earning. That's good. Well, 512 00:23:32,859 --> 00:23:35,150 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Minister for coming all the way 513 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,709 Speaker 1: down here to share with us your thoughts. We really 514 00:23:37,719 --> 00:23:39,739 Speaker 1: appreciate your time. No worries, happy to be able to 515 00:23:39,750 --> 00:23:41,750 Speaker 1: share and thanks for giving me the opportunity to do so. 516 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:42,829 Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. 517 00:23:46,949 --> 00:23:50,329 Speaker 1: Hi there. It's Tiffany and Gerald back with the A 518 00:23:50,339 --> 00:23:53,500 Speaker 1: MA segment. Now, let's get straight into it. Have you 519 00:23:53,510 --> 00:23:56,609 Speaker 1: heard of the term P IP, I haven't not until 520 00:23:56,619 --> 00:23:59,129 Speaker 1: the last few years when some people I know were 521 00:23:59,140 --> 00:24:03,228 Speaker 1: unfortunately put on it. So P IP stands for performance 522 00:24:03,239 --> 00:24:07,630 Speaker 1: improvement plan. And the overall goal is to give employees 523 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,290 Speaker 1: with performance issues, the tools and opportunity to improve before 524 00:24:12,300 --> 00:24:15,290 Speaker 1: they face other actions, including termination 525 00:24:15,650 --> 00:24:19,329 Speaker 1: our listener today, whom I'll call. Jenny wants to know 526 00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:22,429 Speaker 1: how do I bounce back from P IP, 527 00:24:22,670 --> 00:24:26,670 Speaker 2: Gerald. Wow. Ok. For many, it really signals the end 528 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,930 Speaker 2: of the road for them. I would say just even 529 00:24:28,939 --> 00:24:31,698 Speaker 2: knowing that you are on API P, it really doesn't 530 00:24:31,709 --> 00:24:32,099 Speaker 2: make you feel good, 531 00:24:32,180 --> 00:24:34,339 Speaker 2: it feels like you should start to look for another job. 532 00:24:34,479 --> 00:24:37,060 Speaker 2: But I think in general sometimes P IP can be 533 00:24:37,069 --> 00:24:40,310 Speaker 2: a good thing, but it really depends on whether you 534 00:24:40,319 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 2: are given the adequate support to succeed and to bounce back. 535 00:24:43,689 --> 00:24:46,448 Speaker 2: So in my experiences hearing from people on P IP, 536 00:24:46,459 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 2: sometimes it does really seem that 537 00:24:49,219 --> 00:24:53,129 Speaker 2: the PIP is just a way to document their exit, 538 00:24:53,140 --> 00:24:57,609 Speaker 2: their justification for terminating. So in those cases, the PIP 539 00:24:57,619 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: actually serves no purpose or rather it serves no benefit 540 00:25:00,569 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 2: to the individual that's going to the pip. It serves 541 00:25:03,209 --> 00:25:05,839 Speaker 2: the benefit to the company. But if today, the PIP 542 00:25:05,849 --> 00:25:08,189 Speaker 2: is given in a way where it's meant to help 543 00:25:08,199 --> 00:25:11,060 Speaker 2: the employee to improve, how do we know that we 544 00:25:11,069 --> 00:25:13,479 Speaker 2: can see that by the way, the PIP is structured 545 00:25:13,819 --> 00:25:16,698 Speaker 2: by the relationships that the workplace support that is given there. 546 00:25:16,810 --> 00:25:20,079 Speaker 2: If those things are present, the PIP can help an 547 00:25:20,089 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 2: individual to bounce back. OK. So 548 00:25:21,569 --> 00:25:21,739 Speaker 1: what 549 00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:23,699 Speaker 1: is a good performance improvement 550 00:25:23,709 --> 00:25:24,079 Speaker 1: plan? 551 00:25:24,089 --> 00:25:26,579 Speaker 2: A good P I plan includes a few things like 552 00:25:26,589 --> 00:25:29,839 Speaker 2: a very clear goal, areas of improvement that you have 553 00:25:29,849 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 2: to achieve very specific tasks and outcomes, very clear targets. 554 00:25:34,569 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: And it also includes conversations that are taken together with 555 00:25:38,010 --> 00:25:38,910 Speaker 2: your supervisor 556 00:25:39,150 --> 00:25:42,209 Speaker 2: to see whether have you met those outcomes or not. So, 557 00:25:42,219 --> 00:25:44,179 Speaker 2: a good P IP should have all of these things. 558 00:25:44,189 --> 00:25:47,550 Speaker 2: It should certainly never be just a conversation to say 559 00:25:47,630 --> 00:25:50,109 Speaker 2: you're on P IP. Ah, you better buck up and 560 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:51,219 Speaker 2: if not you're on the way out because 561 00:25:51,229 --> 00:25:52,329 Speaker 1: a lot of people would be like, how do I 562 00:25:52,339 --> 00:25:55,770 Speaker 1: buck up? Because obviously nobody is setting out to get 563 00:25:55,780 --> 00:25:58,849 Speaker 1: on to API P? Right. So you say a good 564 00:25:58,859 --> 00:26:02,079 Speaker 1: P IP would have a proper checklist and proper check 565 00:26:02,130 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: ins as well. 566 00:26:02,930 --> 00:26:04,729 Speaker 2: The check ins part is pretty important 567 00:26:05,010 --> 00:26:07,510 Speaker 2: because you can have a proper checklist. But the checklist 568 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,030 Speaker 2: also be used to justify your exit. Yeah. Correct. But 569 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 2: I think when you start to look at the support 570 00:26:12,890 --> 00:26:15,770 Speaker 2: that you get from your colleagues, your supervisor, you can 571 00:26:15,780 --> 00:26:18,300 Speaker 2: kind of get a sense whether are they really genuine 572 00:26:18,310 --> 00:26:20,569 Speaker 2: in wanting to help you to improve or are they 573 00:26:20,579 --> 00:26:22,750 Speaker 2: just like wishing that you would live on your own? Ok. 574 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:22,910 Speaker 1: Like 575 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:22,939 Speaker 2: the 576 00:26:22,949 --> 00:26:25,489 Speaker 1: quiet firing that we were saying? Yeah, because P IP 577 00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:26,929 Speaker 1: could be also a form of quiet 578 00:26:26,939 --> 00:26:28,708 Speaker 2: firing. Yes, this is something that many 579 00:26:28,790 --> 00:26:31,030 Speaker 2: people in hr they will advocate for. You know, if 580 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 2: today someone who is not performing well, the P IP 581 00:26:33,930 --> 00:26:35,829 Speaker 2: is seen as almost the last resort. So document it 582 00:26:35,839 --> 00:26:37,649 Speaker 2: well and justify the firing. 583 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,300 Speaker 1: Ok. So it sounds all quite doom and gloom. But 584 00:26:41,310 --> 00:26:44,449 Speaker 1: what if I'm put on P IP then what should 585 00:26:44,459 --> 00:26:46,719 Speaker 1: I do the last resort like you say is to 586 00:26:46,729 --> 00:26:49,209 Speaker 1: I guess hand in the resignation letter, if you know 587 00:26:49,219 --> 00:26:52,479 Speaker 1: that the people who have put you on this plan 588 00:26:52,489 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: have 589 00:26:52,569 --> 00:26:56,170 Speaker 1: no whatsoever interests at heart for you. But if, let's 590 00:26:56,180 --> 00:26:58,469 Speaker 1: say I feel that ok, my manager is trying their best. 591 00:26:58,479 --> 00:27:00,569 Speaker 1: Maybe it could be just a bad year. Maybe it 592 00:27:00,579 --> 00:27:03,579 Speaker 1: could be that things have been in flux this year. 593 00:27:03,589 --> 00:27:06,390 Speaker 1: Maybe I had things that come my way in life 594 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,089 Speaker 1: and unfortunately my manager understands, but I have to put 595 00:27:09,099 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: me on P IP because I haven't been meeting clear goals. 596 00:27:12,410 --> 00:27:14,290 Speaker 1: So if I've been put on P IP, my manager 597 00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:16,130 Speaker 1: wants to help me to get out of it. How 598 00:27:16,140 --> 00:27:16,300 Speaker 1: should 599 00:27:16,469 --> 00:27:17,209 Speaker 1: I approach? Yes. 600 00:27:17,219 --> 00:27:17,449 Speaker 2: When 601 00:27:17,459 --> 00:27:19,050 Speaker 2: you are placed on API P, the first thing to 602 00:27:19,060 --> 00:27:21,290 Speaker 2: think about is whether is it justified? Ok. Do you 603 00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:22,270 Speaker 2: think that you should be on API 604 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,229 Speaker 1: P and wait? So if it's not justified, what can 605 00:27:24,239 --> 00:27:25,619 Speaker 1: I do? I can go to hr and say sorry, 606 00:27:25,630 --> 00:27:27,670 Speaker 1: it's not justified. Take me out of P IP. Can 607 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:27,968 Speaker 1: I do that? 608 00:27:27,979 --> 00:27:28,349 Speaker 2: If you 609 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 2: don't feel it's justifiable, you should clarify. Like why are 610 00:27:30,689 --> 00:27:33,290 Speaker 2: you on API P and start to really ask for 611 00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:35,689 Speaker 2: the reasons in your work performance that led to this 612 00:27:35,699 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 2: P IP. You want to get a clarification otherwise you 613 00:27:38,569 --> 00:27:40,010 Speaker 2: shouldn't just take the P IP 614 00:27:40,349 --> 00:27:42,780 Speaker 2: just because someone puts you on it. Right. Then the 615 00:27:42,790 --> 00:27:45,060 Speaker 2: other thing here is if today you are put API 616 00:27:45,069 --> 00:27:47,329 Speaker 2: P and you feel like it's justified for many reasons, right? 617 00:27:47,339 --> 00:27:49,250 Speaker 2: It could be because it's a poor job fit. It 618 00:27:49,260 --> 00:27:51,219 Speaker 2: could be because of things that are happening in your family, 619 00:27:51,229 --> 00:27:54,050 Speaker 2: in your personal life, you're struggling with certain issues 620 00:27:54,390 --> 00:27:57,290 Speaker 2: and these issues are actually affecting your work performance. If 621 00:27:57,300 --> 00:27:59,329 Speaker 2: these are valid reasons, then maybe you want to think 622 00:27:59,339 --> 00:28:02,629 Speaker 2: about addressing those issues as well. On top of really 623 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,890 Speaker 2: working on your P IP OK. Being on API P, 624 00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:07,869 Speaker 2: there's sometimes this sense of guilt, shame that you're not 625 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,010 Speaker 2: good enough and you really feel like a part of 626 00:28:10,020 --> 00:28:11,410 Speaker 2: you just died while you're still working. 627 00:28:11,739 --> 00:28:14,319 Speaker 2: So you really want to manage that site a lot better. 628 00:28:14,329 --> 00:28:17,479 Speaker 2: You want to be able to still continue to be positive, 629 00:28:17,489 --> 00:28:20,260 Speaker 2: to try to give your best at the workplace. And 630 00:28:20,270 --> 00:28:22,500 Speaker 2: this is why I say the support from the supervisor, 631 00:28:22,510 --> 00:28:25,300 Speaker 2: the consultations, the check ins are very important because you 632 00:28:25,310 --> 00:28:26,910 Speaker 2: want to get a sense of this person that you 633 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,550 Speaker 2: are working with and this environment, this community that you 634 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 2: are with at the workplace. 635 00:28:30,959 --> 00:28:33,579 Speaker 2: Are they for you or not? Right? Because if today 636 00:28:33,589 --> 00:28:35,739 Speaker 2: there is that support that you will feel like you 637 00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:38,260 Speaker 2: can bounce back. But if today they all seem to 638 00:28:38,270 --> 00:28:41,170 Speaker 2: be not very supportive, then this will make the bounce 639 00:28:41,180 --> 00:28:42,099 Speaker 2: back a lot harder. 640 00:28:42,359 --> 00:28:44,189 Speaker 2: Then you might really want to think about whether this 641 00:28:44,199 --> 00:28:46,260 Speaker 2: is the right job for you to stay on as well. 642 00:28:46,270 --> 00:28:49,819 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, Jenny, I hope what we have talked about today, 643 00:28:49,829 --> 00:28:52,180 Speaker 1: the advice will be useful for you. I hope you 644 00:28:52,189 --> 00:28:55,099 Speaker 1: take a positive attitude. Out of this because it sometimes 645 00:28:55,109 --> 00:28:57,229 Speaker 1: may not be you, it may be the environment around you, 646 00:28:57,239 --> 00:28:59,780 Speaker 1: the conditions as well. And we hope that you will 647 00:28:59,790 --> 00:29:02,780 Speaker 1: be able to improve from P IP if you are 648 00:29:02,790 --> 00:29:05,689 Speaker 1: put on it and if any of you listeners, you 649 00:29:05,699 --> 00:29:08,459 Speaker 1: have any other work related questions, big or small, we're 650 00:29:08,469 --> 00:29:09,300 Speaker 1: here to help you 651 00:29:09,665 --> 00:29:11,925 Speaker 1: send it to us. We're at CN A podcasts at 652 00:29:11,935 --> 00:29:15,244 Speaker 1: media corp.com dot SG. I will ask the question, Gerald 653 00:29:15,255 --> 00:29:18,015 Speaker 1: will answer them for you. You can always also find 654 00:29:18,025 --> 00:29:21,755 Speaker 1: us on Spotify Apple Podcasts or youtube where a video 655 00:29:21,765 --> 00:29:24,285 Speaker 1: version of this is at the team behind the work 656 00:29:24,295 --> 00:29:28,074 Speaker 1: it podcast is Christina Robert, Joan Chan, Juani Johari, Sa 657 00:29:28,275 --> 00:29:31,555 Speaker 1: Wen to Yan Yun C mixing is by Cary Lim 658 00:29:31,655 --> 00:29:35,265 Speaker 1: video by Haida Amin. I'm Jerald and I'm Tiffany. Have 659 00:29:35,275 --> 00:29:36,844 Speaker 1: a super work week ahead.