Speaker 1: Very good morning everyone, and a warm welcome to Executive
Speaker 1: Insights by Media Corp, marketing through uncertainty with agile strategies
Speaker 1: and data-driven precision. My name is Jackie. I'm the chief
Speaker 1: commercial officer at Media Corp and I'll be your host today.
Speaker 1: So what we're going to talk about in the next
Speaker 1: hour is hot on every business owner and marketer's minds.
Speaker 1: Because no matter which industry we're in, it's hard to
Speaker 1: find businesses that are not impacted by the.
Speaker 1: wider global environment of trade tariffs, rising costs, disrupted supply chains,
Speaker 1: and all the overall you know sense of unpredictability and
Speaker 1: concerns about the economy. Um, so we're very privileged today
Speaker 1: to be unpacking this interesting topic with three very accomplished
Speaker 1: and respected industry leaders who have not only weathered previous storms,
Speaker 1: but have also flourished through the, the, the various challenges
Speaker 1: over the years, right, as they run their businesses.
Speaker 1: So to share their perspectives and their know-how and how
Speaker 1: they remain agile, sharp and adept in turning market volatility
Speaker 1: into business opportunities. So allow me to introduce, um today
Speaker 1: we have Ian Luon. He's the CEO of Media and
Speaker 1: Digital Singapore and Chief Transformation Officer of Southeast Asia Publicist Group.
Speaker 1: We have Deborah Soon, a group head of brand communications,
Speaker 1: marketing and experience from Sing Life, and we have Paul Soon,
Speaker 1: CEO of Malin Lo Singapore and China.
Speaker 1: So I'll kickstart today by directing my first question at Paul. So, uh,
Speaker 1: how have, you know, how have recent economic and geopolitical
Speaker 1: shifts impacted marketing plans, be it in the way you
Speaker 1: do budgeting, targeting, planning, or messaging? Um, what kind of
Speaker 1: shifts and pivots have you personally made and and and
Speaker 1: observed in your time?
Speaker 2: Uh, thanks a lot, uh, Jackie, and good morning, everyone. Um,
Speaker 2: that's a wonderful question. Um, on, on the, on our end,
Speaker 2: because we are more of a creative agency that supports
Speaker 2: our clients and brands, uh, the observation is that when
Speaker 2: Uh, there are signs of economic downturn or headwinds. Uh,
Speaker 2: there's a greater call for agency consolidation. In other words, um,
Speaker 2: a greater lens whereby clients are looking to partner agencies
Speaker 2: that are able to do more for them in a
Speaker 2: more integrated and organized fashion because that really helps drive
Speaker 2: my next point, uh, which is also the shift in
Speaker 2: operational relevance and in ensuring agility.
Speaker 2: Um, and more importantly, also, um, I'm pretty sure, but
Speaker 2: I'll be the first one to say it. And there's
Speaker 2: also a drive for adoption of AI today, uh, which
Speaker 2: also will be seen as a multiplier, uh, but hopefully
Speaker 2: used in a very, very meaningful way. So these are
Speaker 2: just two observations that at least on the service provider standpoint, uh,
Speaker 2: we start, we react with our, with our brands. Right,
Speaker 1: very interesting. I mean, what about Ian, what have you
Speaker 1: observed personally or maybe activated in terms of changes and pivots?
Speaker 2: So, firstly, good morning, everyone. I think, um, very similar
Speaker 2: to Paul, right? I think, uh, for the publicist group,
Speaker 2: you know, and, and the business that we are in,
Speaker 2: you know, it's always in service of our clients. So
Speaker 2: I think um that the reactions and um and the
Speaker 2: undertakings have been quite diverse, but I think firstly, uh,
Speaker 2: the first point perhaps to echo what Paul had said, right,
Speaker 2: we are seeing a lot of consolidation.
Speaker 2: Uh, in terms of the various, uh, service lines, right,
Speaker 2: that we are providing to many of our clients. And
Speaker 2: I think this is often, you know, for better or
Speaker 2: for worse for the agencies, um, um, on, on different occasions,
Speaker 2: of course, consolidation means that we get to take on more, right, uh,
Speaker 2: to connect the dots between lateral services again, whether it's creative, production, media, digital, CRM, commerce.
Speaker 2: Um, and I think fundamentally we're all doing that also
Speaker 2: because of, uh, of the need for greater title orchestration, right,
Speaker 2: and agility at the same time. So many clients are
Speaker 2: moving to that space and I think beyond just what's
Speaker 2: happening for us, even when we reflect on our client organizations, right?
Speaker 2: I think there is also that sort of pressure to
Speaker 2: ensure that interdivisions, interpartments, right, are working a lot more
Speaker 2: seamlessly to exchange a lot more.
Speaker 2: Information and intelligence. So I think that's the first point
Speaker 2: that really reflects how bottom line focus, you know, the
Speaker 2: bottom line focus adjustments are. But I think uh for
Speaker 2: quite a number of our clients, right, I think we also,
Speaker 2: we also see that there's a shift for a shift
Speaker 2: towards the value-based messaging.
Speaker 2: So I think, you know, uh, it's no longer just
Speaker 2: about communicating, for example, the specific product launch, right, but
Speaker 2: trying to shift and create more value so that consumers
Speaker 2: can feel that they're getting really more bang for their buck,
Speaker 2: you know, like, uh, more bundles, for example, right, that
Speaker 2: tell us to speak of, you know, specific loyalty points, cashbacks,
Speaker 2: you know, that sometimes financial services would cover. And actually
Speaker 2: recently as well, you know, an auto client of ours, right,
Speaker 2: you know, the automotive sector.
Speaker 2: Uh, used to have, you know, test drives where you
Speaker 2: can only do it for like half an hour when
Speaker 2: you go to the showroom, but now there's an invitation, right,
Speaker 2: for test drives for you to actually borrow the car
Speaker 2: for a couple of days, drive it and get the
Speaker 2: full experience and a full bang for your time going
Speaker 2: for that trial, and then deciding after the end of
Speaker 2: 3 or 4 days whether or not you actually want
Speaker 2: to purchase the car, right? So there's a lot more
Speaker 2: value-based messaging again, I think that that is coming across
Speaker 2: for people to to stretch their dollar and their time. Right,
Speaker 1: right.
Speaker 1: I'll pose this question also, maybe Deborah, you could jump in. Um,
Speaker 1: based on what the two gentlemen have said, uh, I
Speaker 1: can hear two very different perspectives, right? One is probably
Speaker 1: driven by cost savings, you know, wanting to have more synergy, uh, consolidation. uh,
Speaker 1: but the other at the other end of the spectrum,
Speaker 1: we see brands potentially becoming more innovative.
Speaker 1: Not necessarily just coming from a cost perspective with Ian's
Speaker 1: example about how auto brands have also tried to be
Speaker 1: a lot more experiential thinking from the customer's perspective, how
Speaker 1: to make that entire brand preference and buying process a
Speaker 1: little bit more seamless by even extending a half day
Speaker 1: test drive to a 3 day experience. So from your perspective,
Speaker 1: you know, in Sy life, like how would you, what
Speaker 1: were the shifts that you have seen?
Speaker 1: OK, first, I'd say that usually media and marketing are
Speaker 1: the first budgets to get cut, right? All of us
Speaker 1: know that. We have been in the industry long enough.
Speaker 1: So we are a barometer of the economy and a
Speaker 1: global shifts in the economy. So all of us have
Speaker 1: felt this, hence, you need to consolidate. We are constantly
Speaker 1: trying to do better and get better efficiency. I'm on
Speaker 1: the client side now, as you guys know. Uh, and
Speaker 1: we also know the other trend where clients are in
Speaker 1: housing a lot of things because we think it will
Speaker 1: be faster, go to the market, more efficient. It's a
Speaker 1: challenge for all of us in the industry, right?
Speaker 1: Uh, we have done that as well. Um, I used
Speaker 1: to work with, actually, Paul has been a great partner, right?
Speaker 1: But we in-house some stuff, and, sorry, Paul, but I
Speaker 1: guess that's the reality, right? Um, if you're capable of
Speaker 1: doing it, you do it, or you hire the capabilities
Speaker 1: and you think you get better ROI like this.
Speaker 1: That's what we've done as a brand. How else are
Speaker 1: we going to be innovative? We, so besides in-house, we
Speaker 1: use a lot more data, we use our own client data,
Speaker 1: because we have data to mine. So you see also
Speaker 1: a consolidation of marketing functions. The role of the CMO
Speaker 1: has changed, right? We are now also, I'm also chief
Speaker 1: customer officer. Experience stands for customer experience, customer, you know, segmentation,
Speaker 1: loyalty programs, engagement. Uh, you talked about car buying and
Speaker 1: car trends. Today, we have a partnership with, we have
Speaker 1: a car brand that's partnering us to do test drives today.
Speaker 1: We are leveraging that. They are leveraging our client base.
Speaker 1: We are leveraging their client base, their budget to organize.
Speaker 1: We're not paying for it. They're paying. Yes. So, so
Speaker 1: these things are happening, right? It's, it's also a function
Speaker 1: of the way media and consumption has gone. Social media
Speaker 1: has gone. We've seen how the entire landscape has fragmented.
Speaker 1: It's also called the fragmentation of the touch points for customers.
Speaker 1: And that is the, the challenge that I think all
Speaker 1: of us have to.
Speaker 1: Rise up to, right, rise to, because we are all
Speaker 1: trying to reach customers and to grow customer share.
Speaker 1: Now I was saying building on your point, right, that
Speaker 1: um because all the roles are starting to merge and
Speaker 1: it's really difficult for us to decouple between or you know,
Speaker 1: even from a, if you look at it from a
Speaker 1: platform platform standpoint, it's harder to even say which parts
Speaker 1: are done by a creative agency or a social agency
Speaker 1: or a client or a production house these days, right?
Speaker 1: Or an influencer.
Speaker 1: Or a creator, the roles have actually started to blur. Um,
Speaker 1: but do you also see that uh brands are also
Speaker 1: taking a bit of a short term approach, right? So
Speaker 1: because of cost constraints and you know, everything having to
Speaker 1: stay within the budget, do more with less, there is
Speaker 1: always a tendency to just run chase down the rabbit
Speaker 1: hole of lowering our
Speaker 1: cost per acquisition or cost per lead, driving results, um, uh,
Speaker 1: in the immediate term, right? Because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: business pressures there. Um, do you see that there will
Speaker 1: be also risk in how brands are foregoing a lot
Speaker 1: of brand building efforts and there might be actually longer
Speaker 1: term or mid-term to longer term payoffs as a, I mean,
Speaker 1: as in, uh, impact as a result of this?
Speaker 1: I'm sure that uh CFOs will expect that, that you
Speaker 1: continue to cut your brand budget, which literally has happened
Speaker 1: to some of us, but uh then what we have
Speaker 1: to do is to be clever, more clever how we
Speaker 1: manage our budget.
Speaker 1: So basically the product and brand budgets have merged.
Speaker 1: At least in my team, right? I don't know how
Speaker 1: others will do it, um, but what it means is
Speaker 1: you need to align the messaging tan.
Speaker 1: Right? And that is getting that, getting more collaboration within
Speaker 1: your teams, making sure people's KPIs are aligned, that you
Speaker 1: know that the brand targets must align with the product
Speaker 1: sales targets. And it's really for us in the marketing space,
Speaker 1: the content creation space to, to really think deeper and
Speaker 1: idea better. Um, I think.
Speaker 1: There is still a lot of value working with external
Speaker 1: service providers because you have to, I think an outside
Speaker 1: in view is always necessary, right? So brands, companies and
Speaker 1: brands still need to do that. Maybe they might forgo
Speaker 1: it in the short term, um, but if you do
Speaker 1: forgo spending on brand and the short term, you know
Speaker 1: the payback will come. All of us have been around
Speaker 1: long enough to know that the payback will come. You
Speaker 1: still need to spend on brand. That overall story, you
Speaker 1: still need that.
Speaker 1: It might not be brands spending the same way that
Speaker 1: we've done it. We don't do a big brand, or
Speaker 1: now we call them brand films, we don't call the TVCs, right?
Speaker 1: Your big brand film, you might do digital extensions, you might,
Speaker 1: you want to target people differently using digital, but some
Speaker 1: out of home media is still, you know, that at
Speaker 1: present is still required, at least that's how I feel. Right? Uh,
Speaker 1: maybe for building on Deborah's points, I wanted to check
Speaker 1: with Paul as well because you know when Deborah was
Speaker 1: mentioning about with the same budget.
Speaker 1: Uh, clients are not expecting you to tackle both objectives, right?
Speaker 1: Short term, long term. Does that translate into struggles for
Speaker 1: your team when you, when you are trying to digest
Speaker 1: a brief and with the same resources, you have to
Speaker 1: tackle both objectives, and has that been challenging or have
Speaker 1: you found some success cases and being able to do
Speaker 1: that effectively?
Speaker 2: I think, uh, Jackie I will respond to this in
Speaker 2: two ways. Um, one is that, uh, I think the
Speaker 2: agency and client relationship has to be built on trust,
Speaker 2: and trust actually built through difficult times, not so much
Speaker 2: the good times. So everybody can do a lot of
Speaker 2: things during the good times, and that's the best part
Speaker 2: of it. Um, but the active conversation on how to
Speaker 2: help each other, support each other through the
Speaker 2: Uh, turbulent moments are the ones that allow us to
Speaker 2: build what is meaningful. And I think as an agency
Speaker 2: partner from my external view, our job is still to
Speaker 2: maintain a sense of where the consumer is and where
Speaker 2: the opportunities would still sit. Granted that we also know
Speaker 2: that we need to be faster, we need to be
Speaker 2: more reactive. We need to also look at how we
Speaker 2: repackage our costs in order to support the key initiatives
Speaker 2: that we are running and, and to also accept.
Speaker 2: Uh, what clients like Deborah had to do? Can we
Speaker 2: take things internally? What do we need to do to
Speaker 2: help with that, and how do we reshape everything? But
Speaker 2: I do want to echo a point, especially to our listeners, uh,
Speaker 2: that brand building should never ever stop. In fact, actually, uh,
Speaker 2: research has shown that brand building during turbulent times is
Speaker 2: actually one of the more, even more critical, because scientifically,
Speaker 2: we're building memory structures, and then I'm pretty sure, uh,
Speaker 2: I can lean in, right, from a media perspective, there's
Speaker 2: also lots of opportunities to reframe what brand building is.
Speaker 2: And then of course, you, you recut some of the
Speaker 2: activities that are seemingly frivolous or not so important, but
Speaker 2: then sharpen your areas of activation, especially in Singapore and
Speaker 2: so on. And we all Singaporean, consumers tend to love
Speaker 2: an emotional connection and a brand with a point of view.
Speaker 2: Uh, so, I think, uh, during turbulent times like this, it,
Speaker 2: it is a wonderful opportunity to do the right thing
Speaker 2: with your agency partners and, as a brand, um, to
Speaker 2: really sharpen your message and build for the future instead. Um,
Speaker 2: I think, I think it's seen as an opportunity that
Speaker 2: way for us also.
Speaker 1: Right. We'd love to hear from Ian, uh, what do
Speaker 1: you think about this point and, you know, in terms
Speaker 1: of how it applies to, to your area of.
Speaker 2: Definitely going to double down on some of the points
Speaker 2: that um Deborah and Paul had mentioned, right? I think firstly,
Speaker 2: not investing in brand is bad for business. Uh, and,
Speaker 2: and I'll be very pointed about this because ultimately as well,
Speaker 2: if you don't invest in brand, right, you're not going
Speaker 2: to have any pricing power and you're also going to
Speaker 2: lose customer loyalty, right? Um.
Speaker 2: But I think this HO argument between brand and performance budgets,
Speaker 2: you know, uh, it's it's, it's not only of recent times,
Speaker 2: you know, I think I could recall that, uh, it
Speaker 2: started to intensify even 5 years before the pandemic, so
Speaker 2: like 10 years ago, right? And, and the reason why
Speaker 2: again is because the, the trade-offs are often more immediate
Speaker 2: for you when you invest in performance to know what
Speaker 2: outcomes you're actually getting.
Speaker 2: Simply because of the transparency, you know, from, uh, all
Speaker 2: the data that you get from some of the platforms,
Speaker 2: for example, right, that have made actually performance marketing a
Speaker 2: lot more appealing. Um, but I would say again that,
Speaker 2: you know, it's, it really has to be quite an
Speaker 2: intricate balance because we, we do, we have seen again,
Speaker 2: you know, clients overinvesting too much on the lower part
Speaker 2: of the funnel, uh, and then over time as well,
Speaker 2: diluting margins and driving unsustainable benchmarks as well towards pricing,
Speaker 2: you know, um, it's
Speaker 2: not going to help, right? And it's a race just
Speaker 2: the price at the end of the day and, and
Speaker 2: even for the agency resources to optimize to the cows
Speaker 2: come home, right? So I think there's a lot of
Speaker 2: challenge uh in in in that domain. I think the
Speaker 2: answer to, to the, the answer to some of these
Speaker 2: right now still goes back, you know, to perhaps.
Speaker 2: Um, uh, engaging in, you know, uh, market mix modeling
Speaker 2: studies or ROI analytics and sometimes, you know, when, when I,
Speaker 2: when I refer to these points, um, there are some clients,
Speaker 2: for example, who who who take a back seat because like, oh,
Speaker 2: how much is it going to cost? How much time
Speaker 2: will it take, right? But the reality is that actually
Speaker 2: the last couple of years, there has been a lot
Speaker 2: of uh very accessible and uh I would say more
Speaker 2: dynamic and fast-paced modern techniques, right, to MMM.
Speaker 2: And uh and in fact, all you need to ensure
Speaker 2: is that your data, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your,
Speaker 2: your data is clean and organized, right? You, you are
Speaker 2: open about the collaboration with all your agency partners, you know,
Speaker 2: and internal divisions about why you're doing it. Everyone pulls
Speaker 2: data together, clean.
Speaker 2: it up and then from there you can ingest the
Speaker 2: model as well. You can ingest all the data into
Speaker 2: the model and you can get outcomes and this actually
Speaker 2: gives a lot of marketers, right, probably a language to
Speaker 2: use in the boardroom, right? Again, to convince CEOs on
Speaker 2: why marketing shouldn't be the first budget to get cut.
Speaker 2: So I think maybe that's ah that's uh that that's
Speaker 2: something that we could all look to follow up on
Speaker 2: as well, right, as an industry. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you feel, I mean, and this could be posted
Speaker 1: 3 of you, right? Do you feel that because there's
Speaker 1: so much data and so much pressure for accountability and
Speaker 1: for every dollar to count, um, that it also requires
Speaker 1: a different kind of courage and pitching approach to stakeholders
Speaker 1: to get them to agree to invest in things that
Speaker 1: are not necessarily immediately trackable, but you know, a longer term,
Speaker 1: like you say,
Speaker 1: If you were to do MMM modeling or if you
Speaker 1: were to do say brand uh perception shifts, right? Those
Speaker 1: are not um those are not data points that would
Speaker 1: be able to justify immediate investments, right? So do you
Speaker 1: find it very difficult for or challenging to advise clients
Speaker 1: in this area when um the push is always towards
Speaker 1: looking at data because that's linked to the other question
Speaker 1: that we're talking about the signals that you are tracking, right?
Speaker 1: um when it comes to managing in such volatile time.
Speaker 1: Would any of you want to take this?
Speaker 2: I, I, I could jump in first. I mean, the,
Speaker 2: the response to give an analogy, right, is that in
Speaker 2: our busy state of life right now, you always want
Speaker 2: to still think about planning for your next vacation because
Speaker 2: everyone deserves a break, right? But if you don't take it,
Speaker 2: then
Speaker 2: At some point in time, you know, you're going to
Speaker 2: end up as well burnout, and this is where I
Speaker 2: feel that, you know, investment on things that you don't
Speaker 2: see immediate returns for because of the urgency of what's
Speaker 2: in front of you, at some point it's going to
Speaker 2: come back to bite you, right? And, and I would
Speaker 2: say that um
Speaker 2: The, the, the investment on the right resources and infrastructure
Speaker 2: to get your to get your data silos right in
Speaker 2: place and organized is probably the most important thing right
Speaker 2: now that everyone has got to look into, especially if
Speaker 2: you want to adopt AI because AI alone, right, as
Speaker 2: we get to that topic later as well, will not
Speaker 2: be able to function if you do not have a
Speaker 2: clean data environment.
Speaker 2: And that's super important and critical right now, right? So
Speaker 2: just going back to the analogy again, I think, you know,
Speaker 2: it's going to be a bit of a pinch to
Speaker 2: put that investment forward, but it will pay off in
Speaker 2: the long run. Just as going on a holiday, right,
Speaker 2: you're thinking about it, you give it a break, it's
Speaker 2: just to last for another 6 months, right, through
Speaker 1: pitches. I'm thinking about
Speaker 1: Paul and Deborah, is there anything you want to add
Speaker 1: to this point?
Speaker 1: Well, I think we also have a challenge of being
Speaker 1: data fatigued. There's so much data out there, and you know,
Speaker 1: the decision makers don't want to see all that data.
Speaker 1: You just need to convince them with one and, and,
Speaker 1: and that really is sometimes a challenge. And what we say,
Speaker 1: investing in brand, doing a brand study, I think we
Speaker 1: all just have to bake in our studies, our research
Speaker 1: into the campaign.
Speaker 1: From the start, that's what we have to do. You
Speaker 1: track brand performance, you know, whether it's uh awareness, consideration,
Speaker 1: so on. We've done that from the start. So we
Speaker 1: can see there's a clear correlation between our campaign's launch
Speaker 1: and the brand going up, right? And these are things,
Speaker 1: data points which uh decision makers just need to know,
Speaker 1: be a little bit convinced, uh, when you get trust
Speaker 1: and buy in, then hopefully they won't question every last
Speaker 1: dollar that you're spending.
Speaker 1: Um, of course, when times are tough, getting another extra 100,000,
Speaker 1: 200,000 is difficult, but if you're strategic campaigns that need
Speaker 1: to or objectives that need to be achieved, you still
Speaker 1: need that, you still need to be convinced with relevant data.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I sometimes find, find my team drowning in information.
Speaker 1: I drown in the data as well, really. And sometimes
Speaker 1: all the bosses want to know, oh, the CFO wants
Speaker 1: to know is conversion. OK. That's always a challenge for
Speaker 1: all of us. I don't know how you all, I mean,
Speaker 1: how do you, how do you convert insurance products it's
Speaker 1: a long term product, blah blah. It's not really an
Speaker 1: FMCG good. That's my challenge, right? So you don't always
Speaker 1: see the conversion, but you see the awareness. So again,
Speaker 1: sometimes that is, that is a challenge.
Speaker 2: I think Jackie might just uh lean a bit and
Speaker 2: uh I'll be slightly controversial maybe since I a bit
Speaker 2: more controversial since I wear the, I mean at the
Speaker 2: end of the day I think uh if you're if
Speaker 2: you're managing a small medium business, I, I believe that
Speaker 2: you should be closer to your, your customers actually. I
Speaker 2: think you should trust the fact that uh
Speaker 2: Uh, because you may not have a, a large organization
Speaker 2: to work with it. I'm not saying that you, you
Speaker 2: don't want big companies. I just say that you probably
Speaker 2: should be closer to your customers. And in these moments,
Speaker 2: I think you should really lean into what you really
Speaker 2: know your customers even more. But my greatest advice is
Speaker 2: to then really create a value system that will drive
Speaker 2: more outcomes for you, uh, whether it's brand or, or,
Speaker 2: you know, we, we, we create terms so that we
Speaker 2: are able to sell ideas and justify.
Speaker 2: You know, reasons to exist sometimes. But if you really
Speaker 2: think of the fundamentals of, uh, before they became such
Speaker 2: a big thing, creativity and some gut instinct and knowing
Speaker 2: your customers, because you, you talk to them every single
Speaker 2: day and your intimacy with them, you should know some
Speaker 2: of the answers. And I think in, in these moments,
Speaker 2: in this, um, you know, uncertain times, the only certainty
Speaker 2: is you knowing your consumer.
Speaker 2: Whether it comes from data points or whether it comes
Speaker 2: from the conversation. So you should really talk to your
Speaker 2: consumers more and talk and talk and talk, and then
Speaker 2: do your propositions and value system, rebuild that for the
Speaker 2: future so that you can be more robust. So I, I,
Speaker 2: and please be brave with your creative messaging. Please be differentiated.
Speaker 2: Please take some risks, because not doing anything is also bad.
Speaker 2: Please do something, at least create something that will shift
Speaker 2: the needle, or at least have a talking point, because that,
Speaker 2: that really helps us.
Speaker 2: So Deborah,
Speaker 1: where we can pivot into the AI story, you know,
Speaker 1: we talk about creativity and being differentiated, which is what
Speaker 1: we all as marketers want to be, right? AI is
Speaker 1: not going to give you the differentiation and creativity. I mean,
Speaker 1: they will give you three ideas. We are already on
Speaker 1: boarding tools, right? That's the challenge of AI um and
Speaker 1: this go to market ideation will be much faster, but
Speaker 1: you need that creative difference and that understanding of your
Speaker 1: customer to be able to do something that is totally
Speaker 1: relevant and
Speaker 1: That will set you apart. And that's what we all
Speaker 1: want to do as brands and AI cannot do that, right?
Speaker 1: It will create you what you give the brief without
Speaker 1: that extra spark of creativity.
Speaker 1: Yes. OK. Now, I want to say that actually, if
Speaker 1: you look at, um, to the point about analyzing data
Speaker 1: and using it, um, to apply to adapting our plans, right?
Speaker 1: And you're saying about AI as well. Would you say that, um,
Speaker 1: even if you have all this data at your disposal
Speaker 1: and you understand what's working and what's not, um, very often,
Speaker 1: even if you know or you can draw insights from
Speaker 1: there or directional guidance on what to do next, how
Speaker 1: quickly and how responsive can businesses
Speaker 1: B and what kind of systems and tools do you
Speaker 1: rely on um to enable this process of responsiveness, right?
Speaker 1: That that ultra responsive mode. How do you actually do this?
Speaker 1: I mean, and this question can be unpacked in a
Speaker 1: few ways. One, it's at a campaign level, one is
Speaker 1: potentially at the business level where you take advantage of
Speaker 1: opportunities because you may have observed certain data signals that
Speaker 1: tells you that there is a there's a burgeoning trend
Speaker 1: in a space that you might want to build a
Speaker 1: product for.
Speaker 1: Uh, and also at a, at a multi-market level, and
Speaker 1: that's probably more for Ian, right? Because you handle uh
Speaker 1: multi-market businesses like in terms of how you set up,
Speaker 1: how would you put systems and processes and tools in
Speaker 1: place to help us be a lot more responsive um
Speaker 1: uh towards our driving towards our objectives, even with all
Speaker 1: the data signals and everything that we are we are
Speaker 1: now looking at.
Speaker 2: I, I would probably start off first, uh, speaking again
Speaker 2: as an agency practitioner where we work with clients from
Speaker 2: very diverse sectors, right? Pharma healthcare, to telco, to to
Speaker 2: financial services, to government, um, and, and, and I guess
Speaker 2: the first thing that um I've always encouraged my leaders is,
Speaker 2: and leaders and teams, in fact,
Speaker 2: Um, it's not really a tool. It's, it's, it's really to,
Speaker 2: it's more about the fact that we all have to
Speaker 2: take very keen interest about what's happening around us, right?
Speaker 2: So rather than, you know, uh, spending a few hours
Speaker 2: doing scrolling, you know, really tune into.
Speaker 2: News Asia, right, or you know, just really read but, but,
Speaker 2: but I think that that's been extremely helpful as well,
Speaker 2: you know, in terms of how we're just really gaining,
Speaker 2: you know, insight to what's going on in the world
Speaker 2: and how there are some implications then that will hit
Speaker 2: our clients, even for myself when I meet up with,
Speaker 2: you know, CMOs again, right, at least I know what
Speaker 2: what what what's at the back of their minds or
Speaker 2: their boss' minds to then be able to empathize. So
Speaker 2: I think that's the first, the starting point, right, for everything.
Speaker 2: Um, uh, and then if I, if I move down
Speaker 2: into down into closer to execution, right, um, I think
Speaker 2: simply because we, we also built a lot of dashboards
Speaker 2: for our clients and I guess clients would also be
Speaker 2: expecting us to report on.
Speaker 2: Campaigns, right? It's not just about um uh dashboards for
Speaker 2: the marketing investments that we have, but also if we
Speaker 2: can try to integrate, for example, client performance data, sales data,
Speaker 2: for example, into those dashboards, um, I think that would
Speaker 2: also be something that our team should be referring to. Um,
Speaker 2: and again, right, that that's where we can own that
Speaker 2: conversation to see again where there are gaps that we
Speaker 2: could fill, where, where there could be optimization opportunities.
Speaker 2: And then I would say, um, what's probably more important
Speaker 2: and probably all you can step in as well after
Speaker 2: me to talk about this, right? But I think from a,
Speaker 2: from a communication perspective and messaging perspective, you know, increasingly,
Speaker 2: um there are a lot more.
Speaker 2: New generational subcultures, cultures and subcultures, right, that are surfacing,
Speaker 2: you know, and uh one thing could be trendy, you know,
Speaker 2: for for today and something else could be for tomorrow. Obviously,
Speaker 2: you know, you don't have to jump into every single
Speaker 2: one of them, but it would be good to start
Speaker 2: to monitor and observe as well, right? Like what's really
Speaker 2: going on, because we are all in our own respective
Speaker 2: echo chambers and sometimes the consumers as well or your
Speaker 2: new emergency.
Speaker 2: Consumers could be thinking about your product in a very
Speaker 2: different dimension if you don't. So it's, so it's very
Speaker 2: closely related to what Paul said, right? Engage your consumers.
Speaker 2: In this case, you can use social listening tools, you know,
Speaker 2: media monitoring tools, look at search intent data, right? To
Speaker 2: just determine again, right, what, what are some of these angles, right,
Speaker 2: that you could help, uh, to adjust your messaging strategy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I, I, uh, I enjoy this, uh, because we're
Speaker 2: calling each other so that, uh, Jackie don't have to arrow. Um, I, uh,
Speaker 2: thanks for that. Maybe I give a real example, um,
Speaker 2: and it's about 6 months ago. So look, using at
Speaker 2: least for Indonesia, but I think can apply to Singapore, um,
Speaker 2: using social listening, uh, we, we were trying to figure out, uh,
Speaker 2: whether we can find new segments to go for or
Speaker 2: not because it's a, it's a brand called Lifebuoy.
Speaker 2: You know, body wash, right? I mean, nobody really thinks
Speaker 2: about all these things so much. But then how do
Speaker 2: we try to find new audience in a time whereby
Speaker 2: it's slightly more turbulent and especially when, you know, uh,
Speaker 2: individuals don't quite care. We typically will target moms for
Speaker 2: the families. Uh, through social listening, of course, we know that, uh,
Speaker 2: in Jakarta itself, there's a growing trend of people not having, uh,
Speaker 2: families not having more children, but instead of having, but instead,
Speaker 2: they because they have more pets.
Speaker 2: So, we would never market to a, uh, household of
Speaker 2: two and say, Hey, here's Lifebuoy and protect your family.
Speaker 2: But because they're fur parents, then the shift immediately went
Speaker 2: into a campaign. They say, OK, we will use the
Speaker 2: same product, change the proposition, shift the messaging and say,
Speaker 2: if you love your pet, you should love yourself, therefore,
Speaker 2: you keep clean, right? You will work the whole day
Speaker 2: and all that. So, it is an interesting shift and
Speaker 2: we also see uplifts in different audiences. And I think
Speaker 2: that this is the right moment and, uh, to, to,
Speaker 2: even Deborah's and Ian's point.
Speaker 2: When you know your consumers, your product that well.
Speaker 2: Data works in the way that it should drive value,
Speaker 2: not in the way to just be, to have a
Speaker 2: conversation around it just because you have it. But the
Speaker 2: outcome is where can I find a new audience? And
Speaker 2: can I shift my product into a proposition because the
Speaker 2: four-piece applies even, even more critically during a time where
Speaker 2: Where you have less money to spend, but it's a
Speaker 2: real example and it works. So again, I think Singapore
Speaker 2: would try more of that, seeking new audience and looking
Speaker 2: at how product extension will work and pricing at the
Speaker 2: same time, as I mentioned.
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 1: yeah,
Speaker 1: she looks like she has to. Well, thank you all
Speaker 1: for calling out the brand that I do for 20 years, yeah. Um, no,
Speaker 1: I feel it is very important. I agree totally with I,
Speaker 1: and we need more people in the industry to show
Speaker 1: that they are aware of what's going on in the world, right?
Speaker 1: Context is important. I always say you need to understand
Speaker 1: global big issues and trends. Then you need to understand
Speaker 1: things which are trending.
Speaker 1: Be on the pulse. Correct. And, and now, as Ian says,
Speaker 1: there are more and more tribes, right? With social media,
Speaker 1: everybody has an interest group and, and the people at all,
Speaker 1: and we are responsible, we're targeting very specifically, right? So
Speaker 1: it is definitely harder to be, uh, it is easier
Speaker 1: and also harder to market, because you want to market
Speaker 1: and hit a specific audience group, but as Paul says,
Speaker 1: thinking bigger and getting new audience, how do you get
Speaker 1: other people to like what you're doing, right? And to
Speaker 1: buy your product requires a bigger, a bigger lens.
Speaker 1: So it is, it is challenging, but I think, um,
Speaker 1: people in marketing and media really, uh, people who are
Speaker 1: supposed to be on trend anyway, right? But, and, and
Speaker 1: it's very important, right? And using data in a different way.
Speaker 1: I mean, thinking creatively and differently, how you get as
Speaker 1: as for example is, is very important. Um, and, um,
Speaker 1: I don't know where the origin of the question was,
Speaker 1: whether it was about how, you know, we need to adapt,
Speaker 1: how do we manage the workforce that we to work
Speaker 1: for us, because, uh,
Speaker 1: Context is different, as we spoke earlier, um, before we
Speaker 1: started the call. I mean, we have many more young
Speaker 1: people in the agency, many more young people in our
Speaker 1: teams right now, millennials and Gen Zs, right? And, uh,
Speaker 1: they are very trendy, but sometimes you don't think about
Speaker 1: the bigger picture, right? How do we get that? How
Speaker 1: do we get them on, on board with them to
Speaker 1: understand that these things are important when you want to
Speaker 1: win a pitch? You're not just creating that content, we're
Speaker 1: giving you the opportunity to present to the CEO of
Speaker 1: another company because that's what you expect today. So please
Speaker 1: have that, have that information and they have that presence, right?
Speaker 1: I don't know how you all do it, but yeah,
Speaker 1: how do you treat young people to think that way.
Speaker 1: Do you think that also now with the whole emphasis
Speaker 1: on um.
Speaker 1: On being responsive, being very precise, uh, you know, leveraging
Speaker 1: on data and analytics, right, and everything else, even AI.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that it's more um challenging to define
Speaker 1: the value of creativity and what it means to be
Speaker 1: creative as well, you know, because that, that is a very,
Speaker 1: it's a big question, but I think very often um
Speaker 1: when we try to chase down.
Speaker 1: Um, targets or we try to look at um driving,
Speaker 1: driving quick results, right, and we are all about using tools,
Speaker 1: we are all about scale, you know, all these words
Speaker 1: are like the buzzwords of every organization. I think for
Speaker 1: all four of us, there's no difference, right? Everyone will
Speaker 1: hear it at some point in time in meetings.
Speaker 1: In our own internal uh management um reviews, like what
Speaker 1: do you think is the value of creativity now and
Speaker 1: where would it play best um in a volatile and
Speaker 1: challenging environment where we need to be quicker and sharper
Speaker 1: and more effective?
Speaker 1: Maybe I, I don't, any one of you wanna take
Speaker 1: this Paul in.
Speaker 2: You, I, I could start. Yeah, I, I think, um,
Speaker 2: creativity is still really at the heart of everything that
Speaker 2: we do in marketing, um, because, you know, at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, what you want to drive is resonance, right?
Speaker 2: You need to cut through clutter and there's no, there's
Speaker 2: no other way but to be creative as well about
Speaker 2: your messaging and what you stand for, right?
Speaker 2: And of course, then, you know, uh uh getting people
Speaker 2: just to, of course, you know, not just entertain them,
Speaker 2: but feel that they are connected then with an idea
Speaker 2: that you're trying to present to their lives, right, or
Speaker 2: based on the value proposition that the product is looking
Speaker 2: to offer.
Speaker 2: So I, I think it is harder simply because, you know,
Speaker 2: media is a lot more fragmented today. Everyone is so
Speaker 2: distracted again with many things going on in our lives. Uh,
Speaker 2: but I, but there is absolute, there's still absolute value
Speaker 2: in being creative and whether or not it's again, uh, it's,
Speaker 2: I would say it's not just the agency's job. I
Speaker 2: think everyone can be creative, but at the same time
Speaker 2: as well, you know, it's not, it can't be overly democratized.
Speaker 2: As well, I think there still has to be custodianship,
Speaker 2: and that's where again, right, you know, uh, creative agency leaders,
Speaker 2: you know, working hand in hand, for example, with marketing
Speaker 2: leaders to align on that, on that custodianship for creativity,
Speaker 2: can then start set the call to then start to
Speaker 2: be distributed into the more democratized aspect of how creative
Speaker 2: you can be, for example, working with creators or influencers
Speaker 2: and then getting them to be creative in their own
Speaker 2: life based on what you have defined.
Speaker 2: Right? So, uh, yeah, that's that's my take on it.
Speaker 2: Actually
Speaker 1: a point about custodianship of creativity, I think it's a
Speaker 1: very good point because I find even now with a
Speaker 1: lot of advertisers due to pressures to go to market
Speaker 1: quickly and to activate campaigns very quickly and with with,
Speaker 1: you know, very technical objectives, there's a tendency to also
Speaker 1: sometimes go even straight to publishers or creators directly, right,
Speaker 1: and sometimes not even collaborating that closely with
Speaker 1: Uh, agency partners and you know, I've been to both
Speaker 1: sides of the ecosystem, fully understanding the dynamics, right? So
Speaker 1: when when that happens, who remains the creative custodian? Is
Speaker 1: it still important to have that custodianship? Will it be
Speaker 1: the client then taking on that role because they have
Speaker 1: actually removed uh that that layer of experience hand from
Speaker 1: a third party help, an expert help, right, to oversee
Speaker 1: that all elements actually stack up to a bigger whole picture.
Speaker 1: Um, so that, that is a question I think uh
Speaker 1: probably I see Paul smiling, so I'm going to direct
Speaker 1: that question to
Speaker 1: him.
Speaker 2: I see Deborah smiling. Uh, since you asked, I mean,
Speaker 2: for me, I think that that's, you know, back to
Speaker 2: my first point, I think that's where the strength of
Speaker 2: the relationship, the agency with client is built. Who can
Speaker 2: help when is important. Um, but for my experience so far,
Speaker 2: over the years, um, working with brands like Unilever and
Speaker 2: all that, right, um,
Speaker 2: They try. Most brands would try, but ultimately, at some point,
Speaker 2: the agency will still come back to assist and help
Speaker 2: to ensure that at least the narrative is consistent and, uh, and,
Speaker 2: and built in a way, uh, that the, the use
Speaker 2: of KOLs and influences are really, uh, there's opportunity to
Speaker 2: amplify whatever we're trying to say.
Speaker 2: Because I think that's some guidance and guidance is still required.
Speaker 2: Of course clients can manage that, but I think clients
Speaker 2: now have to also deal with the bosses a lot
Speaker 2: more and like never say got to become chief experience
Speaker 2: officer plus don't know what plus don't know what.
Speaker 1: So
Speaker 2: yeah, yeah, yeah, so sorry, yeah, so that's what I'm
Speaker 2: observing still currently.
Speaker 1: What do you think, Deborah?
Speaker 1: OK, I think my experience is a little bit unique
Speaker 1: and different because I have come from content, as you
Speaker 1: all know, and
Speaker 1: Own platforms, understand. So it's a little bit different. I
Speaker 1: can do my little own thing here and I can
Speaker 1: say that I want, I drive the duration and so on.
Speaker 1: Of course, collaboratively with whoever we work with, right, and
Speaker 1: getting insights from the ground and from younger, from younger colleagues,
Speaker 1: but
Speaker 1: I'm guilty of what you say, la. I mean, sorry,
Speaker 1: we buy, we commission our own content and go out, right?
Speaker 1: And we work directly to you guys as well, right? Um,
Speaker 1: I don't think everybody can do it, really. And I think, um,
Speaker 1: that is why there will always be opportunities in the
Speaker 1: I feel, right? Um, bigger brands might say want to
Speaker 1: create our own thing, but how? Are they really going
Speaker 1: to hire an entire agency to become an in-house team?
Speaker 1: They aren't. They can't.
Speaker 1: Well maybe they can in the future. I don't know, but, uh,
Speaker 1: they might not have the expertise to do it unless
Speaker 1: they have one of you could set it up for them, right? And, um,
Speaker 1: I don't think we quite see that trend yet. I,
Speaker 1: I do see in housing a lot more, right? For
Speaker 1: some specific functions, but maybe not everybody will be bold
Speaker 1: enough to have their own content creation team, right? They
Speaker 1: might do it for smaller things, social media posts, but
Speaker 1: not really creating videos, or maybe they, they do smaller videos,
Speaker 1: but not the whole shop, right? Um.
Speaker 1: So, creativity is still ultimately the most important thing I
Speaker 1: agree in. The second thing today, very tied to that
Speaker 1: is authenticity, right? How do you authentically speak to your
Speaker 1: customer with your, with your brand? How do you create authenticity, right?
Speaker 1: And it is, it is a combination of understanding what's
Speaker 1: on the ground, uh, listening, as you say, social listening,
Speaker 1: and having, uh, having more people, uh, give you feedback.
Speaker 1: Uh, professionals who are close to the ground, give you
Speaker 1: feedback is important so that you can understand authentic conversations
Speaker 1: and how to.
Speaker 1: How to ensure that your brand remains authentic.
Speaker 1: So I think that that is something that, again, AI
Speaker 1: cannot quite replicate yet, right? Uh, how do you authentically speak?
Speaker 1: How do you speak an authentic voice, authentic Singaporean voice
Speaker 1: to a Singaporean customer?
Speaker 1: To a customer in Bangkok in Thailand, right? There is
Speaker 1: still that localization element. There are still contextual elements that
Speaker 1: really I think the AI any AI to cannot quite
Speaker 1: get there yet.
Speaker 1: Because it's all about human connection.
Speaker 1: Your human daily conversations, which are not necessarily captured, you
Speaker 1: can't say, oh, speak like an author, maybe you can
Speaker 1: key that in, but.
Speaker 1: And we said that maybe they're all listening to our
Speaker 1: conversations right now on the phone, right? But I think
Speaker 1: it will take a while. And this is where we
Speaker 1: come in as content creators, as as marketeers, where we
Speaker 1: have that voice to be able to not only convince
Speaker 1: the public, convince your consumers, but also to convince people
Speaker 1: in the boardroom.
Speaker 1: That you need to listen, and you need to listen
Speaker 1: to people who actually have an expert view to help
Speaker 1: you craft the messaging and the story and the video content,
Speaker 1: whatever content on TikTok or whatever for your customers. So
Speaker 1: it does take, um, it does take, um, C-suite people
Speaker 1: to understand the importance of the function. And I think
Speaker 1: in today's context, more and more people see it because
Speaker 1: of the growth of media, social media.
Speaker 1: Um, so it's, it's a, it's a challenge, but it's
Speaker 1: also an opportunity.
Speaker 1: So building on this, I was thinking that, you know,
Speaker 1: when we speak about clients or uh um marketers that
Speaker 1: are also doing some parts of in-housing, for example, and
Speaker 1: then and some parts of relying on experts, right, to
Speaker 1: help them with key tasks like building, whether it's about
Speaker 1: building authenticity of the brand or knowing whether you have
Speaker 1: the chops to be the creative custodian or
Speaker 1: Um, you know, how much of it should be outsourced
Speaker 1: and in-house, you know, with the, with the constant pressure
Speaker 1: to go to market very quickly and to react in
Speaker 1: a very responsive manner, um, to, to drive numbers. What
Speaker 1: would you say that it's important for clients to also
Speaker 1: take a very, a very honest view of their own
Speaker 1: internal capabilities, you know, when it comes to their own resources,
Speaker 1: their own.
Speaker 1: Um, set up, uh, their own background as well, right? Um,
Speaker 1: to your point, Deborah, because of your background, having been
Speaker 1: to different parts of the marketing ecosystem, um, there could
Speaker 1: be a lot more opportunity for you to then oversee,
Speaker 1: you know, the, the, the various, um, spectrum of, of, of, of,
Speaker 1: of marketing requirements, right? To, to drive towards your, your,
Speaker 1: your end goals. But not every brand is, is possibly,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, held necessarily by people.
Speaker 1: With that varied background, right, or the experience. So, you know,
Speaker 1: from the, it will be interesting to also hear from
Speaker 1: agency standpoint, um, Ian and Paul, like what would be
Speaker 1: your advice to clients if someone came to you to
Speaker 1: ask about, you know, whether there is a, there is, uh,
Speaker 1: they should consider doing parts of their services in-house or
Speaker 1: parts of the things in-house so that they can go
Speaker 1: to market more quickly. Because in a lot of conversations
Speaker 1: I have with clients today, many of them who do.
Speaker 1: Um, have parts of the businesses in-house. It's because they
Speaker 1: want to be faster. They think it gives them a
Speaker 1: lot better control, um, even though agency partners typically have,
Speaker 1: I mean, probably invest in bigger tools, global tools, you know,
Speaker 1: global data and you know all the the the the
Speaker 1: the AI technology, for example. So what would you say
Speaker 1: to that and how would you advise them to, to navigate,
Speaker 1: you know, if if such conversations do pop up in
Speaker 1: the boardroom?
Speaker 2: So, so I could start with this, right, and, and
Speaker 2: I would say that um in multiple conversations with uh
Speaker 2: local and international clients, there is no right or wrong answer,
Speaker 2: as long as you're very aware about where your trade-offs
Speaker 2: are going to be.
Speaker 2: Right? Um, and the example again, for example, if we
Speaker 2: take in housing as an example, right, uh, there is
Speaker 2: truth then that there can be a lot more, uh,
Speaker 2: direct connection then with with the team, the agency in-house
Speaker 2: team to go faster to market, right, with, uh, with how,
Speaker 2: for example, you're connected to the marketing and the board
Speaker 2: conversations is what they are going on, but where you
Speaker 2: will find the trade-off.
Speaker 2: In the longer term and being an agency proponent for
Speaker 2: over 2 decades right now as well, or rather an
Speaker 2: employee for 2 decades, I would say that you, you
Speaker 2: will often then have a different problem to deal with
Speaker 2: because you're going to have churn at some point with
Speaker 2: your own internal staff, especially those, those the agency role,
Speaker 2: because most of, most of, most of the people who
Speaker 2: thrive within agencies actually enjoy diverse experiences working on different.
Speaker 2: Clients, different sectors, you know, working on very different briefs
Speaker 2: and having that permission to challenge, right, uh, the marketing
Speaker 2: organization from time to time, right? Of course, if we
Speaker 2: do have a different point of view about how to
Speaker 2: go to market, rather than, oh, this person is my boss,
Speaker 2: so I've got to keep saying yes, right? So I
Speaker 2: think there has to be, there has to be uh
Speaker 2: uh introspection is always a very important thing. As for
Speaker 2: individuals as well, I think we always have to reflect.
Speaker 2: And maybe a point that you know, Paul had mentioned earlier, right?
Speaker 2: I think the trust with with uh with your agency
Speaker 2: partner or the value of your networks is going to
Speaker 2: be very key, because I think if you have the
Speaker 2: receptivity to listen, right, and to get a download or
Speaker 2: get some honest feedback, then you would know perhaps what
Speaker 2: levers you actually do need to pull, right, at that
Speaker 2: at that circumstance that you're trying to do within your organization.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love the point about not falling into the
Speaker 1: trap of having an internal echo chamber, right? Because you're right.
Speaker 1: I mean, as much as agencies are paid by clients,
Speaker 1: but I think having that objective view and that expert
Speaker 1: view is always helpful to to bring some order and
Speaker 1: logic back into the discussions. And it also helps clients
Speaker 1: to balance the dynamics in the room, right, when you
Speaker 1: have very strong voices um in in uh in the
Speaker 1: media of multiple stakeholders having a different point of view.
Speaker 2: Actually, sorry, I just, I just have one quick build
Speaker 2: to this, right, before maybe Paul you can go, uh,
Speaker 2: because it relates then to some to someone's question, right? Um,
Speaker 2: I in the chat itself about how can we make
Speaker 2: marketing and sales teams work more closely together, right? And
Speaker 2: I think, uh, I, I probably have the permission to
Speaker 2: say this as an agency practitioner that very, very often
Speaker 2: we see the politics between sales and marketing.
Speaker 2: In organizations, right, because budgets again are bifurcated in some organizations,
Speaker 2: everyone's fighting for the budget and the right of control, uh,
Speaker 2: and I would just probably quote, uh, uh, our Prime
Speaker 2: Minister right in the latest uh SG rally as well,
Speaker 2: his focus was a lot about the we and not
Speaker 2: the me. And, and this is very often where of
Speaker 2: course the agency does play a role to come in
Speaker 2: again to say that, hey, you guys are not talking
Speaker 2: to one another. You guys are trying to create different
Speaker 2: goals in KPIs.
Speaker 2: are contradictory. Let's go into the room together again, right?
Speaker 2: And let's figure out how we all succeed, right? By, by,
Speaker 2: by streamlining and trying to identify again the roles that
Speaker 2: we play and the value that we can, we can,
Speaker 2: we can look to contribute. So I think again, this
Speaker 2: is a form of how necessary introspection as well, right?
Speaker 2: Could probably serve by getting honest feedback, you know, from
Speaker 2: a partner.
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 1: Wonderful. Paul, you wanted to say something just now?
Speaker 2: No, I think, uh, I echo uh Ian's points. Um, I, I,
Speaker 2: I don't, I don't have any uh other bills today
Speaker 2: except for, I think from, uh, as we speak about
Speaker 2: marketing and sales, um, the respect of each role, where
Speaker 2: we talk about brand versus conversion, I think it's exactly
Speaker 2: the things that we've been talking about for the last
Speaker 2: 45 minutes, understanding that awareness and resonance drives easier sale.
Speaker 2: Uh, and understanding that the sales conversion is important to
Speaker 2: marketing if that's released to them to also understand whether
Speaker 2: it's working or not. And I think that's exactly the,
Speaker 2: the point. And yes, we experienced a lot of the
Speaker 2: disconnect between marketing and sales and don't don't even talk
Speaker 2: about technology yet, because then you want to layer all
Speaker 2: your data together and all that, right? So that's ah
Speaker 2: some challenges that we face as an agency partner.
Speaker 2: Um, but you have the ability now to reconfigure your
Speaker 2: operations because times are not so great, and this is
Speaker 2: the best opportunity to align and come together and say, OK, guys,
Speaker 2: let's solve this problem today.
Speaker 1: Yes. Actually, um, now in the interest of time, I'm
Speaker 1: going to take one question um that also just came
Speaker 1: in from the audience. I thought this was a really
Speaker 1: interesting one because we know we focus a lot on
Speaker 1: creative control, creative custodianship, um, and how much control we
Speaker 1: need to to to let go a little bit of, right? Uh,
Speaker 1: as well as also making sure that everything that we
Speaker 1: do across all touch points stack up to a greater whole. Uh,
Speaker 1: and also to Deborah's point about authenticity. So there was
Speaker 1: this question.
Speaker 1: That was posed by the member of the audience about
Speaker 1: how much should brands hand over to influencers and KOLs
Speaker 1: uh in terms of, you know, creativity, right? Uh versus
Speaker 1: controlling what they, they, they do or say or or create.
Speaker 1: Uh, or broadcast, right? Uh, in order to have a
Speaker 1: unified brand voice without still stifling their authenticity. Because, you know,
Speaker 1: every creator, every KOL has their own style, their own
Speaker 1: way of doing things, their own way of communicating with
Speaker 1: their fans, right, and their followers. So they will want
Speaker 1: to do things in their own way. But how do
Speaker 1: we ensure that, how much control should we maintain and
Speaker 1: how much should we let go of, um, in order to,
Speaker 1: to achieve the results without compromising their authenticity, nor the
Speaker 1: brand's authenticity and consistency.
Speaker 1: Yeah, can I, can I jump in there you're gonna use,
Speaker 1: if as a brand, you're going to use an influencer,
Speaker 1: first of all, you use an influencer, you which is
Speaker 1: align with your brand, otherwise you don't use that person.
Speaker 1: Right? Secondly, if you want to control what an influencer does,
Speaker 1: it's or how they present themselves, it's impossible. Don't use
Speaker 1: the influencer as well, right? What you can do is
Speaker 1: give the influencer a brief on the content you want
Speaker 1: because that's your brand. But if you're going to interfere
Speaker 1: with how they present themselves, be themselves or their brand,
Speaker 1: then don't use the influencer. It's not going to work, right? Um,
Speaker 1: the other thing about using KOLs, which I I tend,
Speaker 1: I try to provide guidance to my team is that
Speaker 1: Um,
Speaker 1: You, you use people that you are connected with and
Speaker 1: try to use them for the long term, right? Don't
Speaker 1: just use them for a one-off campaign. You can experiment
Speaker 1: and try, but people know that you paid the influencer
Speaker 1: to say these good things about you. So that also,
Speaker 1: the audience is not stupid. Customers are not stupid. They know.
Speaker 1: Right, that you paid this person to sell this product, right?
Speaker 1: That's already at the back of my mind. In fact,
Speaker 1: that is for any influencer today. So there's no point
Speaker 1: trying to control. If it doesn't fit with you, just
Speaker 1: don't use that person.
Speaker 2: The other thing, uh, Jackie, we keep telling our clients
Speaker 2: is that uh if you, you, you we hire the
Speaker 2: chaos and influencers for who they are and not, not
Speaker 2: to change them.
Speaker 2: Because, you know, as human beings, we shouldn't be changing anybody. Uh,
Speaker 2: and to Devil's point, we should invest time to build
Speaker 2: a relationship with the KOLs that we believe, uh, that
Speaker 2: carries the same values and will tell the stories that
Speaker 2: we want. It's not a question of can we change them.
Speaker 2: It's a question of accepting them and then do they
Speaker 2: fit the brand values and not invest in them.
Speaker 1: So, so the point is really not about control, but
Speaker 1: it's more about curation, right? So like from the start,
Speaker 1: when you actually select them into the, um, to be
Speaker 1: part of your, your marketing campaign or to be an
Speaker 1: ambassador of sorts, right? There has to already be very
Speaker 1: good guidelines and curation process where you're really comfortable with
Speaker 1: the way they're doing things and how they're doing things.
Speaker 1: Um, and the kind of audiences that they're speaking to
Speaker 1: before you even shortlist them, right, that's the, that would
Speaker 1: be the direction how we are going. Yeah, yeah, sorry, Ian,
Speaker 1: you wanted to say something?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I, I, I think it's a, it's a very
Speaker 2: important point and question to, to address, right? Because, uh,
Speaker 2: I think all around the world and even in our region, uh,
Speaker 2: influencer marketing dollars are significantly on an increase, and this
Speaker 2: is what we've noted again between both domestic and international clients, right?
Speaker 2: And in Singapore and Southeast Asia and beyond.
Speaker 2: Uh, I think if you were to call out, you know, what, um,
Speaker 2: the Unilever, you know, all the world's largest advertisers right
Speaker 2: in the world, CEO Fernando Fernandez had said as well,
Speaker 2: you know, there's an intent of shifting 50% of their
Speaker 2: dollars right towards social and, and, and creative first marketing. Um,
Speaker 2: it's important that every organization learns to get this right,
Speaker 2: but it's also quite tricky in some ways because, um,
Speaker 2: where we are observing the landscape for influences to be
Speaker 2: at this point in time is that there are
Speaker 2: There are, there are, there's a lot of fragmentation, right?
Speaker 2: There are far too many players, for example, in the ecosystem,
Speaker 2: far too many agents and far too many individuals as
Speaker 2: well applying their trade in this front and
Speaker 2: Pricing pricing is is one thing to control, right? The
Speaker 2: prices are very dynamic and the lifespan of an influencer
Speaker 2: is not like, for example, a particular channel or a
Speaker 2: particular publication, right, where it stands for something over over years, right?
Speaker 2: Someone could be a hip hop dancer today and become
Speaker 2: a mom tomorrow. So what they stand for as well
Speaker 2: is going to be something that needs to be observed.
Speaker 2: So going back to that point again, duration is going
Speaker 2: to be very critical, especially as we start to scale up.
Speaker 2: And what we are noticing, right, is that especially in
Speaker 2: the larger economies that will, that that that we are
Speaker 2: inspired by and it will take shape in this part
Speaker 2: of the world, right? We are seeing that where the
Speaker 2: creator engagements are.
Speaker 2: Today are quite similar to where the publishing ecosystem was
Speaker 2: maybe about 1213 years ago. It's starting to move to
Speaker 2: a space where it's becoming more and more programmatic, right,
Speaker 2: because you need to manage it in scale. But at
Speaker 2: the same time as well, when I say programmatic, don't
Speaker 2: just think about media, right? Even the way you
Speaker 2: issue briefs as well to, to how you, to your,
Speaker 2: your curated creators, it's going to be something to think about.
Speaker 2: So it's always that going back again to somebody, whether
Speaker 2: or not it's within marketing or within an agency to
Speaker 2: serve that custodianship first of what the brand voice stands for.
Speaker 2: What then the brand wants to commission to produce to
Speaker 2: say is something then that you own as an asset directly, right?
Speaker 2: But on the other end of the spectrum where you
Speaker 2: want to then start engaging creators, you got to have
Speaker 2: some flexibility or a lot of flexibility for them to
Speaker 2: then exercise their own voice and their own style, right?
Speaker 2: But they all still, yeah, it still led us up to.
Speaker 2: to the core.
Speaker 1: Right. Thank you for, for, for all the useful insights, right?
Speaker 1: I think that's very, very good perspectives that we're hearing
Speaker 1: from the three of you. I think one final question
Speaker 1: before we, we end our webinar today would be, what
Speaker 1: kind of, um, I would say advice would you give
Speaker 1: to our listeners today, um, you know, when it comes
Speaker 1: to
Speaker 1: What would be the few things that you want them
Speaker 1: to take away when it comes to navigating, you know,
Speaker 1: all these market changes and volatility and also the impact
Speaker 1: of AI on um you know, the, the various parts
Speaker 1: of the businesses that you are handling right now. You know,
Speaker 1: what would be that that parting shot that you would
Speaker 1: tell everyone?
Speaker 1: Um, OK, we, we talked about AI earlier, um, adapting and, well,
Speaker 1: first of all, not being afraid of new technology and AI, right?
Speaker 1: Getting on board, finding out what's there in the market.
Speaker 1: I think many, this last year and this year, there's
Speaker 1: been quite a big shift. Last year, we're still developing tools.
Speaker 1: The market is still developing tools. This year, I've seen commercialization.
Speaker 1: Everybody's coming to you with their solution. It might not
Speaker 1: be fully thought out, but we're onboarding, we've onboarded a couple.
Speaker 1: And that your team needs to experiment and learn, right?
Speaker 1: Use the tools, don't be afraid of them. And then
Speaker 1: we still need to develop all the guard rails in place, right?
Speaker 1: So adaptability is very important. Resilience is important because of
Speaker 1: what's is volatile out there, right? Being able to adapt quickly,
Speaker 1: being resilient in terms of being very clear with your
Speaker 1: brand voice and your objectives and your customer, right? Being
Speaker 1: resilient in the sense that not shifting just because things
Speaker 1: around you are shifting.
Speaker 1: At the core, you must be very clear what your
Speaker 1: values stand for and who your customer is, right? That's
Speaker 1: very important. Um.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and, and just then being able to experiment, not
Speaker 1: be afraid to try. Um, that is what I would
Speaker 1: say I would advise anybody today who is in marketing, right? And,
Speaker 1: and go with the flow in a way, but at
Speaker 1: the same time, adapt, learn quickly.
Speaker 1: What about Paul?
Speaker 2: Um, for me, I suppose, uh, um, AI definitely has
Speaker 2: to be part and parcel of the entire conversation from
Speaker 2: a business perspective, but it comes right down to brand
Speaker 2: and marketing itself, just know that if you don't set
Speaker 2: your tools up properly, especially addressing the fundamentals of what
Speaker 2: makes your brand truly distinctive, spending time and effort to
Speaker 2: really craft your brand tone, voice, and style, that's truly important.
Speaker 2: Because part of that training data that you put into
Speaker 2: any Gen AI tool has to be built on that.
Speaker 2: These service, the competition and your consumers and all that,
Speaker 2: all that hard work of the 5 C's or 4Cs
Speaker 2: which needs to be done so that it feeds the
Speaker 2: training data to your Gen AI tools, whatever you use,
Speaker 2: so that you do not lose any point on distinctiveness
Speaker 2: and you're creating value back to your customer at every
Speaker 2: touch point as you try to dominate the media landscape
Speaker 2: in however much money you have. Last point is, uh,
Speaker 2: please always keep the human in the loop.
Speaker 2: Make sure that uh there's always somebody there watching and
Speaker 2: guarding and training and and all that, and not just
Speaker 2: need it to do what it needs to do.
Speaker 1: Leave
Speaker 1: it to run a life of its own. Yes, and
Speaker 1: finally from Ian.
Speaker 2: I, I think it's, uh, I, I would, I would
Speaker 2: double down on the points, right? There is this Yin
Speaker 2: and Yang complimentary view of technology, right, uh, in service
Speaker 2: of the work that we do as humans.
Speaker 2: And I think over the last, over the recent months,
Speaker 2: you know, there are days where I feel overwhelmingly excited
Speaker 2: about what you know the age of AI brings, but
Speaker 2: I must admit there are also days where I feel
Speaker 2: a little bit scared.
Speaker 2: Because you know, it's progressing so fast, but I've learned
Speaker 2: to accept and also encourage leaders to feel that it's
Speaker 2: OK to feel both, right? A little bit bipolar sometimes,
Speaker 2: excited to drive, but also it's OK to feel anxious.
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, again, I think
Speaker 2: this is what fuels us then to ensure that we
Speaker 2: are addressing both planes, right? And again, one of it,
Speaker 2: like we spoke about earlier is making sure again that
Speaker 2: you are still investing towards the future, right? And thinking
Speaker 2: again about, you know, establishing um how to.
Speaker 2: your hard data points and organize them as well to
Speaker 2: then work better in the age of AI, but echoing
Speaker 2: again what we discussed, I think that human connection, right,
Speaker 2: staying close to your customers, staying close to your colleagues,
Speaker 2: your staff, staying close to everyone around you and having
Speaker 2: these conversations, real genuine conversations is also going to be
Speaker 2: really critical and key. So I think that's my parting
Speaker 2: shot and we all have to figure out how, you know,
Speaker 2: to balance our time, right, to address this need.
Speaker 1: uh Yeah, I share the same views, right? I I feel.
Speaker 1: Excited as well as scared at times by all the
Speaker 1: the the difference, you know, like all the new technology
Speaker 1: that's coming up right in AI and all, but I
Speaker 1: think as part of our work and various, regardless of
Speaker 1: whether we're from the publisher side, the client side or
Speaker 1: the agency side, I think embracing it is is is
Speaker 1: a must, right? We we have to already get ourselves, um,
Speaker 1: you know, familiar and and use it to scale our
Speaker 1: businesses in areas that make sense. I think the the
Speaker 1: guiding the guide posts will always be.
Speaker 1: Um, adopting it within the realms of ethical guidance, right?
Speaker 1: And that is always also a difficult one because it's
Speaker 1: a new area. So there's always that question about how
Speaker 1: do you do it responsibly, how do we ensure that
Speaker 1: the impact of AI is a positive one, and we
Speaker 1: act responsibly as not just as marketers or as agency partners,
Speaker 1: but also as employers, right? Uh in terms of what
Speaker 1: this means for our people and our talent.
Speaker 1: So I think we're running out of time today but
Speaker 1: I wanted to really thank the three of you, uh, Paul, Deborah,
Speaker 1: I for this amazing sharing session today. Um, there's so
Speaker 1: much firsthand experience that have gone into the rich content
Speaker 1: that we have discussed and you've been so generous in sharing,
Speaker 1: you know, all your insights and all the examples. Uh,
Speaker 1: I'm certain everyone today here probably would leave uh executive
Speaker 1: insights feeling very nourished, encouraged, a little scared but also
Speaker 1: very excited and hopefully clearer about how they could navigate.
Speaker 1: The, the all the the changes and the volatility in
Speaker 1: this uncertain times. So to end today, I think uh
Speaker 1: we would like to thank the three of you and
Speaker 1: we would also see everyone again very soon. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thank you.