WEBVTT - Marketing through uncertainty: agile strategies with data-driven precision 0:00:08.829 --> 0:00:12.228 Very good morning everyone, and a warm welcome to Executive 0:00:12.228 --> 0:00:16.979 Insights by Media Corp, marketing through uncertainty with agile strategies 0:00:16.979 --> 0:00:19.950 and data-driven precision. My name is Jackie. I'm the chief 0:00:19.950 --> 0:00:23.180 commercial officer at Media Corp and I'll be your host today. 0:00:23.389 --> 0:00:24.909 So what we're going to talk about in the next 0:00:24.909 --> 0:00:29.110 hour is hot on every business owner and marketer's minds. 0:00:29.229 --> 0:00:31.829 Because no matter which industry we're in, it's hard to 0:00:31.829 --> 0:00:34.790 find businesses that are not impacted by the. 0:00:34.865 --> 0:00:39.375 wider global environment of trade tariffs, rising costs, disrupted supply chains, 0:00:39.455 --> 0:00:43.375 and all the overall you know sense of unpredictability and 0:00:43.375 --> 0:00:46.845 concerns about the economy. Um, so we're very privileged today 0:00:46.845 --> 0:00:51.095 to be unpacking this interesting topic with three very accomplished 0:00:51.095 --> 0:00:55.354 and respected industry leaders who have not only weathered previous storms, 0:00:55.365 --> 0:00:58.775 but have also flourished through the, the, the various challenges 0:00:58.775 --> 0:01:00.935 over the years, right, as they run their businesses. 0:01:01.250 --> 0:01:04.378 So to share their perspectives and their know-how and how 0:01:04.379 --> 0:01:08.779 they remain agile, sharp and adept in turning market volatility 0:01:08.779 --> 0:01:12.259 into business opportunities. So allow me to introduce, um today 0:01:12.260 --> 0:01:14.779 we have Ian Luon. He's the CEO of Media and 0:01:14.779 --> 0:01:19.250 Digital Singapore and Chief Transformation Officer of Southeast Asia Publicist Group. 0:01:19.459 --> 0:01:22.860 We have Deborah Soon, a group head of brand communications, 0:01:22.980 --> 0:01:26.309 marketing and experience from Sing Life, and we have Paul Soon, 0:01:26.699 --> 0:01:29.849 CEO of Malin Lo Singapore and China. 0:01:30.209 --> 0:01:34.489 So I'll kickstart today by directing my first question at Paul. So, uh, 0:01:34.540 --> 0:01:38.889 how have, you know, how have recent economic and geopolitical 0:01:38.889 --> 0:01:42.129 shifts impacted marketing plans, be it in the way you 0:01:42.129 --> 0:01:46.360 do budgeting, targeting, planning, or messaging? Um, what kind of 0:01:46.610 --> 0:01:49.529 shifts and pivots have you personally made and and and 0:01:49.529 --> 0:01:51.239 observed in your time? 0:01:52.089 --> 0:01:55.809 Uh, thanks a lot, uh, Jackie, and good morning, everyone. Um, 0:01:55.889 --> 0:01:59.660 that's a wonderful question. Um, on, on the, on our end, 0:01:59.889 --> 0:02:02.370 because we are more of a creative agency that supports 0:02:02.370 --> 0:02:06.300 our clients and brands, uh, the observation is that when 0:02:06.660 --> 0:02:11.329 Uh, there are signs of economic downturn or headwinds. Uh, 0:02:11.339 --> 0:02:15.799 there's a greater call for agency consolidation. In other words, um, 0:02:15.860 --> 0:02:19.100 a greater lens whereby clients are looking to partner agencies 0:02:19.100 --> 0:02:21.539 that are able to do more for them in a 0:02:21.538 --> 0:02:25.089 more integrated and organized fashion because that really helps drive 0:02:25.419 --> 0:02:28.660 my next point, uh, which is also the shift in 0:02:28.660 --> 0:02:32.130 operational relevance and in ensuring agility. 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:36.410 Um, and more importantly, also, um, I'm pretty sure, but 0:02:36.410 --> 0:02:38.250 I'll be the first one to say it. And there's 0:02:38.250 --> 0:02:41.288 also a drive for adoption of AI today, uh, which 0:02:41.288 --> 0:02:44.809 also will be seen as a multiplier, uh, but hopefully 0:02:44.809 --> 0:02:46.490 used in a very, very meaningful way. So these are 0:02:46.490 --> 0:02:50.758 just two observations that at least on the service provider standpoint, uh, 0:02:50.770 --> 0:02:54.529 we start, we react with our, with our brands. Right, 0:02:54.690 --> 0:02:57.288 very interesting. I mean, what about Ian, what have you 0:02:57.288 --> 0:03:00.880 observed personally or maybe activated in terms of changes and pivots? 0:03:02.479 --> 0:03:06.978 So, firstly, good morning, everyone. I think, um, very similar 0:03:06.979 --> 0:03:09.910 to Paul, right? I think, uh, for the publicist group, 0:03:10.038 --> 0:03:11.600 you know, and, and the business that we are in, 0:03:11.679 --> 0:03:14.800 you know, it's always in service of our clients. So 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:18.160 I think um that the reactions and um and the 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:21.990 undertakings have been quite diverse, but I think firstly, uh, 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:24.360 the first point perhaps to echo what Paul had said, right, 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:26.880 we are seeing a lot of consolidation. 0:03:27.339 --> 0:03:30.440 Uh, in terms of the various, uh, service lines, right, 0:03:30.559 --> 0:03:33.279 that we are providing to many of our clients. And 0:03:33.279 --> 0:03:35.039 I think this is often, you know, for better or 0:03:35.039 --> 0:03:38.679 for worse for the agencies, um, um, on, on different occasions, 0:03:38.759 --> 0:03:42.440 of course, consolidation means that we get to take on more, right, uh, 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:49.479 to connect the dots between lateral services again, whether it's creative, production, media, digital, CRM, commerce. 0:03:49.979 --> 0:03:52.759 Um, and I think fundamentally we're all doing that also 0:03:52.759 --> 0:03:56.490 because of, uh, of the need for greater title orchestration, right, 0:03:56.509 --> 0:03:59.130 and agility at the same time. So many clients are 0:03:59.130 --> 0:04:01.830 moving to that space and I think beyond just what's 0:04:01.830 --> 0:04:05.690 happening for us, even when we reflect on our client organizations, right? 0:04:05.750 --> 0:04:08.210 I think there is also that sort of pressure to 0:04:08.210 --> 0:04:12.130 ensure that interdivisions, interpartments, right, are working a lot more 0:04:12.130 --> 0:04:14.610 seamlessly to exchange a lot more. 0:04:14.690 --> 0:04:17.399 Information and intelligence. So I think that's the first point 0:04:17.399 --> 0:04:21.239 that really reflects how bottom line focus, you know, the 0:04:21.238 --> 0:04:23.959 bottom line focus adjustments are. But I think uh for 0:04:23.959 --> 0:04:26.599 quite a number of our clients, right, I think we also, 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.238 we also see that there's a shift for a shift 0:04:29.238 --> 0:04:30.980 towards the value-based messaging. 0:04:31.369 --> 0:04:33.469 So I think, you know, uh, it's no longer just 0:04:33.470 --> 0:04:37.540 about communicating, for example, the specific product launch, right, but 0:04:37.540 --> 0:04:41.140 trying to shift and create more value so that consumers 0:04:41.140 --> 0:04:43.260 can feel that they're getting really more bang for their buck, 0:04:43.299 --> 0:04:46.339 you know, like, uh, more bundles, for example, right, that 0:04:46.339 --> 0:04:50.260 tell us to speak of, you know, specific loyalty points, cashbacks, 0:04:50.339 --> 0:04:53.178 you know, that sometimes financial services would cover. And actually 0:04:53.178 --> 0:04:56.059 recently as well, you know, an auto client of ours, right, 0:04:56.109 --> 0:04:57.570 you know, the automotive sector. 0:04:58.029 --> 0:05:00.829 Uh, used to have, you know, test drives where you 0:05:00.829 --> 0:05:02.549 can only do it for like half an hour when 0:05:02.549 --> 0:05:05.390 you go to the showroom, but now there's an invitation, right, 0:05:05.428 --> 0:05:07.950 for test drives for you to actually borrow the car 0:05:07.950 --> 0:05:10.308 for a couple of days, drive it and get the 0:05:10.309 --> 0:05:13.390 full experience and a full bang for your time going 0:05:13.390 --> 0:05:15.750 for that trial, and then deciding after the end of 0:05:15.750 --> 0:05:17.230 3 or 4 days whether or not you actually want 0:05:17.230 --> 0:05:19.149 to purchase the car, right? So there's a lot more 0:05:19.149 --> 0:05:21.820 value-based messaging again, I think that that is coming across 0:05:21.820 --> 0:05:24.988 for people to to stretch their dollar and their time. Right, 0:05:25.100 --> 0:05:25.549 right. 0:05:26.170 --> 0:05:29.109 I'll pose this question also, maybe Deborah, you could jump in. Um, 0:05:29.130 --> 0:05:31.690 based on what the two gentlemen have said, uh, I 0:05:31.690 --> 0:05:35.350 can hear two very different perspectives, right? One is probably 0:05:35.350 --> 0:05:40.328 driven by cost savings, you know, wanting to have more synergy, uh, consolidation. uh, 0:05:40.420 --> 0:05:42.849 but the other at the other end of the spectrum, 0:05:42.970 --> 0:05:45.640 we see brands potentially becoming more innovative. 0:05:46.029 --> 0:05:48.859 Not necessarily just coming from a cost perspective with Ian's 0:05:48.859 --> 0:05:51.540 example about how auto brands have also tried to be 0:05:51.540 --> 0:05:55.019 a lot more experiential thinking from the customer's perspective, how 0:05:55.019 --> 0:05:59.700 to make that entire brand preference and buying process a 0:05:59.700 --> 0:06:03.420 little bit more seamless by even extending a half day 0:06:03.420 --> 0:06:07.190 test drive to a 3 day experience. So from your perspective, 0:06:07.339 --> 0:06:10.779 you know, in Sy life, like how would you, what 0:06:10.779 --> 0:06:12.209 were the shifts that you have seen? 0:06:13.190 --> 0:06:16.329 OK, first, I'd say that usually media and marketing are 0:06:16.329 --> 0:06:18.529 the first budgets to get cut, right? All of us 0:06:18.529 --> 0:06:21.089 know that. We have been in the industry long enough. 0:06:21.250 --> 0:06:23.209 So we are a barometer of the economy and a 0:06:23.209 --> 0:06:25.140 global shifts in the economy. So all of us have 0:06:25.140 --> 0:06:28.329 felt this, hence, you need to consolidate. We are constantly 0:06:28.690 --> 0:06:31.130 trying to do better and get better efficiency. I'm on 0:06:31.130 --> 0:06:33.849 the client side now, as you guys know. Uh, and 0:06:33.850 --> 0:06:35.808 we also know the other trend where clients are in 0:06:35.809 --> 0:06:38.010 housing a lot of things because we think it will 0:06:38.010 --> 0:06:39.970 be faster, go to the market, more efficient. It's a 0:06:39.970 --> 0:06:41.769 challenge for all of us in the industry, right? 0:06:42.140 --> 0:06:44.769 Uh, we have done that as well. Um, I used 0:06:44.769 --> 0:06:47.829 to work with, actually, Paul has been a great partner, right? 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:50.250 But we in-house some stuff, and, sorry, Paul, but I 0:06:50.250 --> 0:06:53.410 guess that's the reality, right? Um, if you're capable of 0:06:53.410 --> 0:06:55.570 doing it, you do it, or you hire the capabilities 0:06:55.570 --> 0:06:57.600 and you think you get better ROI like this. 0:06:58.890 --> 0:07:00.709 That's what we've done as a brand. How else are 0:07:00.709 --> 0:07:03.040 we going to be innovative? We, so besides in-house, we 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:05.299 use a lot more data, we use our own client data, 0:07:05.589 --> 0:07:07.869 because we have data to mine. So you see also 0:07:07.869 --> 0:07:11.309 a consolidation of marketing functions. The role of the CMO 0:07:11.309 --> 0:07:13.959 has changed, right? We are now also, I'm also chief 0:07:13.959 --> 0:07:18.459 customer officer. Experience stands for customer experience, customer, you know, segmentation, 0:07:18.630 --> 0:07:22.589 loyalty programs, engagement. Uh, you talked about car buying and 0:07:22.589 --> 0:07:25.630 car trends. Today, we have a partnership with, we have 0:07:25.630 --> 0:07:28.380 a car brand that's partnering us to do test drives today. 0:07:29.399 --> 0:07:32.140 We are leveraging that. They are leveraging our client base. 0:07:32.309 --> 0:07:36.269 We are leveraging their client base, their budget to organize. 0:07:36.510 --> 0:07:39.869 We're not paying for it. They're paying. Yes. So, so 0:07:39.869 --> 0:07:42.630 these things are happening, right? It's, it's also a function 0:07:42.630 --> 0:07:46.630 of the way media and consumption has gone. Social media 0:07:46.630 --> 0:07:49.630 has gone. We've seen how the entire landscape has fragmented. 0:07:50.350 --> 0:07:53.619 It's also called the fragmentation of the touch points for customers. 0:07:54.369 --> 0:07:56.619 And that is the, the challenge that I think all 0:07:56.619 --> 0:07:58.329 of us have to. 0:07:59.369 --> 0:08:02.570 Rise up to, right, rise to, because we are all 0:08:02.570 --> 0:08:05.649 trying to reach customers and to grow customer share. 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:09.000 Now I was saying building on your point, right, that 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:12.350 um because all the roles are starting to merge and 0:08:12.350 --> 0:08:15.309 it's really difficult for us to decouple between or you know, 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:17.239 even from a, if you look at it from a 0:08:17.239 --> 0:08:20.600 platform platform standpoint, it's harder to even say which parts 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.190 are done by a creative agency or a social agency 0:08:23.190 --> 0:08:25.869 or a client or a production house these days, right? 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:26.679 Or an influencer. 0:08:26.763 --> 0:08:30.422 Or a creator, the roles have actually started to blur. Um, 0:08:30.433 --> 0:08:34.512 but do you also see that uh brands are also 0:08:34.513 --> 0:08:37.022 taking a bit of a short term approach, right? So 0:08:37.432 --> 0:08:40.232 because of cost constraints and you know, everything having to 0:08:40.232 --> 0:08:42.593 stay within the budget, do more with less, there is 0:08:42.593 --> 0:08:45.742 always a tendency to just run chase down the rabbit 0:08:45.742 --> 0:08:46.862 hole of lowering our 0:08:47.184 --> 0:08:50.935 cost per acquisition or cost per lead, driving results, um, uh, 0:08:50.986 --> 0:08:53.305 in the immediate term, right? Because there's a lot of 0:08:53.306 --> 0:08:56.335 business pressures there. Um, do you see that there will 0:08:56.335 --> 0:08:59.906 be also risk in how brands are foregoing a lot 0:08:59.905 --> 0:09:02.306 of brand building efforts and there might be actually longer 0:09:02.306 --> 0:09:04.666 term or mid-term to longer term payoffs as a, I mean, 0:09:04.776 --> 0:09:06.944 as in, uh, impact as a result of this? 0:09:08.619 --> 0:09:11.829 I'm sure that uh CFOs will expect that, that you 0:09:11.830 --> 0:09:14.270 continue to cut your brand budget, which literally has happened 0:09:14.270 --> 0:09:17.070 to some of us, but uh then what we have 0:09:17.070 --> 0:09:19.070 to do is to be clever, more clever how we 0:09:19.070 --> 0:09:19.830 manage our budget. 0:09:20.580 --> 0:09:23.179 So basically the product and brand budgets have merged. 0:09:24.330 --> 0:09:26.530 At least in my team, right? I don't know how 0:09:26.530 --> 0:09:30.409 others will do it, um, but what it means is 0:09:30.409 --> 0:09:32.169 you need to align the messaging tan. 0:09:33.140 --> 0:09:36.859 Right? And that is getting that, getting more collaboration within 0:09:36.859 --> 0:09:40.579 your teams, making sure people's KPIs are aligned, that you 0:09:40.580 --> 0:09:43.340 know that the brand targets must align with the product 0:09:43.340 --> 0:09:47.409 sales targets. And it's really for us in the marketing space, 0:09:47.539 --> 0:09:51.179 the content creation space to, to really think deeper and 0:09:51.179 --> 0:09:54.179 idea better. Um, I think. 0:09:54.619 --> 0:09:57.140 There is still a lot of value working with external 0:09:57.140 --> 0:09:59.539 service providers because you have to, I think an outside 0:09:59.539 --> 0:10:04.500 in view is always necessary, right? So brands, companies and 0:10:04.500 --> 0:10:07.179 brands still need to do that. Maybe they might forgo 0:10:07.179 --> 0:10:09.659 it in the short term, um, but if you do 0:10:09.659 --> 0:10:11.820 forgo spending on brand and the short term, you know 0:10:11.820 --> 0:10:14.218 the payback will come. All of us have been around 0:10:14.219 --> 0:10:16.059 long enough to know that the payback will come. You 0:10:16.059 --> 0:10:18.659 still need to spend on brand. That overall story, you 0:10:18.659 --> 0:10:19.179 still need that. 0:10:19.700 --> 0:10:22.400 It might not be brands spending the same way that 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:24.359 we've done it. We don't do a big brand, or 0:10:24.359 --> 0:10:26.789 now we call them brand films, we don't call the TVCs, right? 0:10:26.799 --> 0:10:30.239 Your big brand film, you might do digital extensions, you might, 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:34.079 you want to target people differently using digital, but some 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:35.799 out of home media is still, you know, that at 0:10:35.799 --> 0:10:38.919 present is still required, at least that's how I feel. Right? Uh, 0:10:39.359 --> 0:10:42.590 maybe for building on Deborah's points, I wanted to check 0:10:42.590 --> 0:10:45.359 with Paul as well because you know when Deborah was 0:10:45.359 --> 0:10:47.080 mentioning about with the same budget. 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.599 Uh, clients are not expecting you to tackle both objectives, right? 0:10:50.609 --> 0:10:54.478 Short term, long term. Does that translate into struggles for 0:10:54.479 --> 0:10:57.239 your team when you, when you are trying to digest 0:10:57.239 --> 0:11:01.119 a brief and with the same resources, you have to 0:11:01.119 --> 0:11:04.200 tackle both objectives, and has that been challenging or have 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:06.559 you found some success cases and being able to do 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:07.359 that effectively? 0:11:08.270 --> 0:11:11.039 I think, uh, Jackie I will respond to this in 0:11:11.039 --> 0:11:14.840 two ways. Um, one is that, uh, I think the 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.159 agency and client relationship has to be built on trust, 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:19.710 and trust actually built through difficult times, not so much 0:11:19.710 --> 0:11:21.599 the good times. So everybody can do a lot of 0:11:21.599 --> 0:11:23.440 things during the good times, and that's the best part 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.559 of it. Um, but the active conversation on how to 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:28.900 help each other, support each other through the 0:11:29.289 --> 0:11:32.369 Uh, turbulent moments are the ones that allow us to 0:11:32.369 --> 0:11:35.169 build what is meaningful. And I think as an agency 0:11:35.169 --> 0:11:37.770 partner from my external view, our job is still to 0:11:37.770 --> 0:11:40.250 maintain a sense of where the consumer is and where 0:11:40.250 --> 0:11:43.809 the opportunities would still sit. Granted that we also know 0:11:43.809 --> 0:11:45.729 that we need to be faster, we need to be 0:11:45.729 --> 0:11:48.369 more reactive. We need to also look at how we 0:11:48.369 --> 0:11:52.169 repackage our costs in order to support the key initiatives 0:11:52.169 --> 0:11:54.250 that we are running and, and to also accept. 0:11:54.570 --> 0:11:56.840 Uh, what clients like Deborah had to do? Can we 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:58.719 take things internally? What do we need to do to 0:11:58.719 --> 0:12:01.320 help with that, and how do we reshape everything? But 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:05.640 I do want to echo a point, especially to our listeners, uh, 0:12:05.719 --> 0:12:08.839 that brand building should never ever stop. In fact, actually, uh, 0:12:08.919 --> 0:12:11.599 research has shown that brand building during turbulent times is 0:12:11.599 --> 0:12:15.640 actually one of the more, even more critical, because scientifically, 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:18.190 we're building memory structures, and then I'm pretty sure, uh, 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:20.439 I can lean in, right, from a media perspective, there's 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.869 also lots of opportunities to reframe what brand building is. 0:12:24.429 --> 0:12:27.239 And then of course, you, you recut some of the 0:12:27.239 --> 0:12:31.169 activities that are seemingly frivolous or not so important, but 0:12:31.169 --> 0:12:34.969 then sharpen your areas of activation, especially in Singapore and 0:12:34.969 --> 0:12:38.169 so on. And we all Singaporean, consumers tend to love 0:12:38.169 --> 0:12:41.169 an emotional connection and a brand with a point of view. 0:12:41.580 --> 0:12:45.340 Uh, so, I think, uh, during turbulent times like this, it, 0:12:45.500 --> 0:12:48.010 it is a wonderful opportunity to do the right thing 0:12:48.010 --> 0:12:52.099 with your agency partners and, as a brand, um, to 0:12:52.099 --> 0:12:56.099 really sharpen your message and build for the future instead. Um, 0:12:56.380 --> 0:12:58.239 I think, I think it's seen as an opportunity that 0:12:58.239 --> 0:12:59.250 way for us also. 0:12:59.539 --> 0:13:01.260 Right. We'd love to hear from Ian, uh, what do 0:13:01.260 --> 0:13:03.179 you think about this point and, you know, in terms 0:13:03.179 --> 0:13:04.979 of how it applies to, to your area of. 0:13:07.030 --> 0:13:09.299 Definitely going to double down on some of the points 0:13:09.299 --> 0:13:13.460 that um Deborah and Paul had mentioned, right? I think firstly, 0:13:13.900 --> 0:13:17.890 not investing in brand is bad for business. Uh, and, 0:13:17.950 --> 0:13:20.989 and I'll be very pointed about this because ultimately as well, 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:23.559 if you don't invest in brand, right, you're not going 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.109 to have any pricing power and you're also going to 0:13:26.109 --> 0:13:28.949 lose customer loyalty, right? Um. 0:13:29.229 --> 0:13:32.890 But I think this HO argument between brand and performance budgets, 0:13:32.969 --> 0:13:35.960 you know, uh, it's it's, it's not only of recent times, 0:13:36.049 --> 0:13:38.570 you know, I think I could recall that, uh, it 0:13:38.570 --> 0:13:41.450 started to intensify even 5 years before the pandemic, so 0:13:41.450 --> 0:13:43.650 like 10 years ago, right? And, and the reason why 0:13:43.650 --> 0:13:48.250 again is because the, the trade-offs are often more immediate 0:13:48.250 --> 0:13:51.289 for you when you invest in performance to know what 0:13:51.289 --> 0:13:53.090 outcomes you're actually getting. 0:13:53.530 --> 0:13:56.489 Simply because of the transparency, you know, from, uh, all 0:13:56.489 --> 0:13:58.409 the data that you get from some of the platforms, 0:13:58.489 --> 0:14:01.330 for example, right, that have made actually performance marketing a 0:14:01.330 --> 0:14:04.109 lot more appealing. Um, but I would say again that, 0:14:04.169 --> 0:14:05.929 you know, it's, it really has to be quite an 0:14:05.929 --> 0:14:09.039 intricate balance because we, we do, we have seen again, 0:14:09.250 --> 0:14:12.049 you know, clients overinvesting too much on the lower part 0:14:12.049 --> 0:14:14.760 of the funnel, uh, and then over time as well, 0:14:14.770 --> 0:14:19.289 diluting margins and driving unsustainable benchmarks as well towards pricing, 0:14:19.330 --> 0:14:20.609 you know, um, it's 0:14:20.765 --> 0:14:23.015 not going to help, right? And it's a race just 0:14:23.015 --> 0:14:24.525 the price at the end of the day and, and 0:14:24.525 --> 0:14:26.914 even for the agency resources to optimize to the cows 0:14:26.914 --> 0:14:29.164 come home, right? So I think there's a lot of 0:14:29.164 --> 0:14:32.405 challenge uh in in in that domain. I think the 0:14:32.405 --> 0:14:35.804 answer to, to the, the answer to some of these 0:14:35.804 --> 0:14:38.445 right now still goes back, you know, to perhaps. 0:14:38.830 --> 0:14:42.320 Um, uh, engaging in, you know, uh, market mix modeling 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.719 studies or ROI analytics and sometimes, you know, when, when I, 0:14:45.770 --> 0:14:48.729 when I refer to these points, um, there are some clients, 0:14:48.780 --> 0:14:51.330 for example, who who who take a back seat because like, oh, 0:14:51.409 --> 0:14:53.250 how much is it going to cost? How much time 0:14:53.250 --> 0:14:56.099 will it take, right? But the reality is that actually 0:14:56.099 --> 0:14:58.440 the last couple of years, there has been a lot 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.890 of uh very accessible and uh I would say more 0:15:01.890 --> 0:15:05.890 dynamic and fast-paced modern techniques, right, to MMM. 0:15:06.289 --> 0:15:08.690 And uh and in fact, all you need to ensure 0:15:08.690 --> 0:15:11.539 is that your data, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, 0:15:11.619 --> 0:15:14.859 your data is clean and organized, right? You, you are 0:15:14.859 --> 0:15:18.419 open about the collaboration with all your agency partners, you know, 0:15:18.460 --> 0:15:21.780 and internal divisions about why you're doing it. Everyone pulls 0:15:21.780 --> 0:15:22.460 data together, clean. 0:15:22.650 --> 0:15:24.539 it up and then from there you can ingest the 0:15:24.539 --> 0:15:26.260 model as well. You can ingest all the data into 0:15:26.260 --> 0:15:28.739 the model and you can get outcomes and this actually 0:15:28.739 --> 0:15:32.380 gives a lot of marketers, right, probably a language to 0:15:32.380 --> 0:15:35.859 use in the boardroom, right? Again, to convince CEOs on 0:15:35.859 --> 0:15:38.739 why marketing shouldn't be the first budget to get cut. 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.429 So I think maybe that's ah that's uh that that's 0:15:41.429 --> 0:15:42.989 something that we could all look to follow up on 0:15:42.989 --> 0:15:44.929 as well, right, as an industry. Yeah, 0:15:45.229 --> 0:15:47.840 do you feel, I mean, and this could be posted 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:49.830 3 of you, right? Do you feel that because there's 0:15:49.830 --> 0:15:53.309 so much data and so much pressure for accountability and 0:15:53.309 --> 0:15:57.700 for every dollar to count, um, that it also requires 0:15:57.750 --> 0:16:01.309 a different kind of courage and pitching approach to stakeholders 0:16:01.309 --> 0:16:03.190 to get them to agree to invest in things that 0:16:03.190 --> 0:16:08.190 are not necessarily immediately trackable, but you know, a longer term, 0:16:08.349 --> 0:16:08.739 like you say, 0:16:08.799 --> 0:16:11.150 If you were to do MMM modeling or if you 0:16:11.150 --> 0:16:15.039 were to do say brand uh perception shifts, right? Those 0:16:15.039 --> 0:16:18.469 are not um those are not data points that would 0:16:18.469 --> 0:16:22.109 be able to justify immediate investments, right? So do you 0:16:22.109 --> 0:16:26.150 find it very difficult for or challenging to advise clients 0:16:26.150 --> 0:16:29.150 in this area when um the push is always towards 0:16:29.150 --> 0:16:31.909 looking at data because that's linked to the other question 0:16:31.909 --> 0:16:34.659 that we're talking about the signals that you are tracking, right? 0:16:34.890 --> 0:16:38.380 um when it comes to managing in such volatile time. 0:16:39.979 --> 0:16:41.570 Would any of you want to take this? 0:16:42.450 --> 0:16:44.900 I, I, I could jump in first. I mean, the, 0:16:45.049 --> 0:16:48.250 the response to give an analogy, right, is that in 0:16:48.250 --> 0:16:52.049 our busy state of life right now, you always want 0:16:52.049 --> 0:16:55.289 to still think about planning for your next vacation because 0:16:55.289 --> 0:16:57.679 everyone deserves a break, right? But if you don't take it, 0:16:57.690 --> 0:16:57.969 then 0:16:58.020 --> 0:17:00.090 At some point in time, you know, you're going to 0:17:00.090 --> 0:17:02.419 end up as well burnout, and this is where I 0:17:02.419 --> 0:17:05.770 feel that, you know, investment on things that you don't 0:17:05.770 --> 0:17:08.170 see immediate returns for because of the urgency of what's 0:17:08.170 --> 0:17:10.250 in front of you, at some point it's going to 0:17:10.250 --> 0:17:12.770 come back to bite you, right? And, and I would 0:17:12.770 --> 0:17:13.739 say that um 0:17:14.180 --> 0:17:18.050 The, the, the investment on the right resources and infrastructure 0:17:18.310 --> 0:17:21.469 to get your to get your data silos right in 0:17:21.469 --> 0:17:24.989 place and organized is probably the most important thing right 0:17:24.989 --> 0:17:27.409 now that everyone has got to look into, especially if 0:17:27.410 --> 0:17:30.669 you want to adopt AI because AI alone, right, as 0:17:30.670 --> 0:17:32.750 we get to that topic later as well, will not 0:17:32.750 --> 0:17:35.030 be able to function if you do not have a 0:17:35.030 --> 0:17:36.030 clean data environment. 0:17:36.349 --> 0:17:38.739 And that's super important and critical right now, right? So 0:17:38.739 --> 0:17:40.780 just going back to the analogy again, I think, you know, 0:17:40.849 --> 0:17:43.459 it's going to be a bit of a pinch to 0:17:43.459 --> 0:17:46.188 put that investment forward, but it will pay off in 0:17:46.189 --> 0:17:48.619 the long run. Just as going on a holiday, right, 0:17:48.660 --> 0:17:50.180 you're thinking about it, you give it a break, it's 0:17:50.180 --> 0:17:52.250 just to last for another 6 months, right, through 0:17:52.250 --> 0:17:52.910 pitches. I'm thinking about 0:17:57.099 --> 0:17:58.780 Paul and Deborah, is there anything you want to add 0:17:58.780 --> 0:17:59.369 to this point? 0:18:01.250 --> 0:18:04.410 Well, I think we also have a challenge of being 0:18:04.410 --> 0:18:08.079 data fatigued. There's so much data out there, and you know, 0:18:08.250 --> 0:18:10.670 the decision makers don't want to see all that data. 0:18:10.969 --> 0:18:13.639 You just need to convince them with one and, and, 0:18:13.910 --> 0:18:17.709 and that really is sometimes a challenge. And what we say, 0:18:17.930 --> 0:18:19.969 investing in brand, doing a brand study, I think we 0:18:19.969 --> 0:18:24.130 all just have to bake in our studies, our research 0:18:24.130 --> 0:18:24.849 into the campaign. 0:18:25.025 --> 0:18:26.704 From the start, that's what we have to do. You 0:18:26.704 --> 0:18:30.344 track brand performance, you know, whether it's uh awareness, consideration, 0:18:30.464 --> 0:18:32.464 so on. We've done that from the start. So we 0:18:32.464 --> 0:18:35.665 can see there's a clear correlation between our campaign's launch 0:18:35.665 --> 0:18:38.415 and the brand going up, right? And these are things, 0:18:38.505 --> 0:18:41.204 data points which uh decision makers just need to know, 0:18:41.385 --> 0:18:43.905 be a little bit convinced, uh, when you get trust 0:18:43.905 --> 0:18:47.185 and buy in, then hopefully they won't question every last 0:18:47.185 --> 0:18:48.704 dollar that you're spending. 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.550 Um, of course, when times are tough, getting another extra 100,000, 0:18:52.619 --> 0:18:55.780 200,000 is difficult, but if you're strategic campaigns that need 0:18:55.780 --> 0:18:59.099 to or objectives that need to be achieved, you still 0:18:59.099 --> 0:19:02.020 need that, you still need to be convinced with relevant data. 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:06.280 So yeah, I sometimes find, find my team drowning in information. 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.939 I drown in the data as well, really. And sometimes 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:12.119 all the bosses want to know, oh, the CFO wants 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:14.719 to know is conversion. OK. That's always a challenge for 0:19:14.719 --> 0:19:16.270 all of us. I don't know how you all, I mean, 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.479 how do you, how do you convert insurance products it's 0:19:19.479 --> 0:19:20.879 a long term product, blah blah. It's not really an 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.760 FMCG good. That's my challenge, right? So you don't always 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.599 see the conversion, but you see the awareness. So again, 0:19:26.839 --> 0:19:28.438 sometimes that is, that is a challenge. 0:19:29.270 --> 0:19:31.410 I think Jackie might just uh lean a bit and 0:19:31.410 --> 0:19:35.250 uh I'll be slightly controversial maybe since I a bit 0:19:35.250 --> 0:19:38.488 more controversial since I wear the, I mean at the 0:19:38.489 --> 0:19:40.849 end of the day I think uh if you're if 0:19:40.849 --> 0:19:43.849 you're managing a small medium business, I, I believe that 0:19:43.849 --> 0:19:46.530 you should be closer to your, your customers actually. I 0:19:46.530 --> 0:19:48.560 think you should trust the fact that uh 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.359 Uh, because you may not have a, a large organization 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:53.869