1 00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:02,279 Speaker 1: This is AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:04,300 --> 00:00:07,510 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to C N A correspondent in this episode, 3 00:00:07,519 --> 00:00:10,829 Speaker 1: the football mad country of Indonesia stripped of hosting the 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,050 Speaker 1: FIFA men's under 20 World Cup. It was the first 5 00:00:14,060 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: time Indonesia would host an international football tournament. It beat 6 00:00:17,370 --> 00:00:20,250 Speaker 1: bids by Brazil and Peru and meant a spot for 7 00:00:20,260 --> 00:00:23,989 Speaker 1: Indonesia at football's top table something the national team hasn't 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:25,690 Speaker 1: come close to in decades. 9 00:00:26,100 --> 00:00:29,870 Speaker 1: The tournament was also to move Indonesia's footballing story forward 10 00:00:29,879 --> 00:00:34,528 Speaker 1: away from past international headlines of corruption, political interference and 11 00:00:34,540 --> 00:00:39,129 Speaker 1: most recently, a stadium disaster that killed 135 Spectators. And 12 00:00:39,139 --> 00:00:41,750 Speaker 1: yet just eight weeks before the tournament kicks off in 13 00:00:41,759 --> 00:00:45,830 Speaker 1: May FIFA has stepped in and said no. So what 14 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:46,250 Speaker 1: happened 15 00:00:46,639 --> 00:00:49,259 Speaker 1: leading up to the tournament? Draw in Bali. The island's 16 00:00:49,270 --> 00:00:54,159 Speaker 1: Governor Wayan Costa made a written protest over Israel's participation 17 00:00:54,169 --> 00:00:58,130 Speaker 1: in the tournament which led to physical protests in Jakarta. 18 00:00:58,689 --> 00:01:02,220 Speaker 1: You see Indonesia has no diplomatic ties with Israel and 19 00:01:02,229 --> 00:01:05,199 Speaker 1: the world's most populous Muslim country is a supporter of 20 00:01:05,209 --> 00:01:06,660 Speaker 1: the Palestinian cause 21 00:01:07,410 --> 00:01:10,540 Speaker 1: in light of the protests and the implied security concerns 22 00:01:10,550 --> 00:01:13,730 Speaker 1: for the Israeli contingent. FIFA had to act. 23 00:01:15,919 --> 00:01:16,149 Speaker 2: Of 24 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,830 Speaker 1: course, looks at this as a kind of intervention because 25 00:01:19,839 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: many times meets out punishment when there is a government intervention, 26 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,580 Speaker 1: this is a form of such intervention and in the 27 00:01:27,589 --> 00:01:31,389 Speaker 1: contract as a host country and host city which we signed, 28 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: we had guaranteed safety. And that is perhaps one of 29 00:01:34,690 --> 00:01:38,738 Speaker 1: fifa's considerations too. That was Eric Thor, chairman of the 30 00:01:38,750 --> 00:01:42,010 Speaker 1: Indonesian Football Association explaining fifa's decision. 31 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,980 Speaker 1: But I still have more questions and to help answer them. 32 00:01:45,989 --> 00:01:48,489 Speaker 1: I'm joined by C N A S Indonesia correspondent Sel 33 00:01:48,550 --> 00:01:51,699 Speaker 1: Barry Ismail Sale. Thanks for chatting with me today, Steve. 34 00:01:52,139 --> 00:01:55,050 Speaker 1: Now sale. Was it a surprise or a shock that 35 00:01:55,059 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: FIFA decided to strip Indonesia of hosting this under 20 36 00:01:58,809 --> 00:02:01,180 Speaker 1: World Cup after all these protests? 37 00:02:01,389 --> 00:02:04,739 Speaker 2: Well, it's not a surprise that FIFA had removed Indonesia 38 00:02:04,750 --> 00:02:06,230 Speaker 2: from hosting the tour 39 00:02:06,555 --> 00:02:10,546 Speaker 2: because FIFA had to act quickly and decisively to ensure 40 00:02:10,555 --> 00:02:13,136 Speaker 2: the safety of the Israeli team. Now, one thing was 41 00:02:13,145 --> 00:02:16,526 Speaker 2: for sure FIFA was never going to exceed to the 42 00:02:16,535 --> 00:02:19,424 Speaker 2: demands of the protesters and that was never an option 43 00:02:19,436 --> 00:02:22,966 Speaker 2: for FIFA. Argentina has recently been confirmed as the new 44 00:02:22,975 --> 00:02:27,394 Speaker 2: host of the tournament replacing Indonesia. Now on 29th of March, 45 00:02:27,406 --> 00:02:28,225 Speaker 2: FIFA announced 46 00:02:28,322 --> 00:02:31,681 Speaker 2: on its website that it has decided due to current 47 00:02:31,692 --> 00:02:35,222 Speaker 2: circumstances to remove Indonesia as the host of the tournament. 48 00:02:35,231 --> 00:02:38,472 Speaker 2: FIFA did not explain what it exactly meant by current 49 00:02:38,481 --> 00:02:41,891 Speaker 2: circumstances and it did not make any direct references to 50 00:02:41,901 --> 00:02:45,781 Speaker 2: the controversy in Indonesia about Israel taking part Now, if 51 00:02:45,792 --> 00:02:49,361 Speaker 2: we analyze a little deeper what FIFA meant by current circumstances, 52 00:02:49,371 --> 00:02:50,031 Speaker 2: I don't think 53 00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:53,490 Speaker 2: they were referring to the Khan Stadium Stampede in Malang 54 00:02:53,538 --> 00:02:57,710 Speaker 2: East Java province. Last October Indonesia had escaped sanctions from 55 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,710 Speaker 2: FIFA following that tragedy. So it has to be recent 56 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,979 Speaker 2: events that had happened and that could only mean the 57 00:03:03,990 --> 00:03:07,839 Speaker 2: disagreement on Israel's participation in the tournament. Now earlier you 58 00:03:07,850 --> 00:03:10,948 Speaker 2: mentioned about the governor of Bali Eu Y and Costa 59 00:03:10,979 --> 00:03:14,690 Speaker 2: had publicly rejected the presence of the Australian National team 60 00:03:14,699 --> 00:03:17,769 Speaker 2: on the island. Now Mr Costa is seeking reelection 61 00:03:18,190 --> 00:03:21,251 Speaker 2: in the gubernatorial election next year. So this could also 62 00:03:21,261 --> 00:03:24,070 Speaker 2: be a factor in trying to understand his actions. Now, 63 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,481 Speaker 2: Bali was supposed to house one of the six soccer 64 00:03:27,490 --> 00:03:31,291 Speaker 2: stadiums for the tournament and the predominantly Hindu province was 65 00:03:31,300 --> 00:03:35,020 Speaker 2: expected to accommodate the Israeli team, but that Bali governor 66 00:03:35,031 --> 00:03:38,371 Speaker 2: was not the only politician who did not want the 67 00:03:38,380 --> 00:03:43,531 Speaker 2: Israelis participation in the competition. Soon after Central Java, Governor 68 00:03:43,541 --> 00:03:45,311 Speaker 2: Ganar Pravo also spoke out 69 00:03:45,382 --> 00:03:49,511 Speaker 2: against having the Israelis in Indonesia. Now Mr Ganar is 70 00:03:49,522 --> 00:03:52,552 Speaker 2: a more prominent figure than the Bali governor and by 71 00:03:52,561 --> 00:03:57,811 Speaker 2: speaking out against the Israelis, he automatically raised the political 72 00:03:57,822 --> 00:04:00,501 Speaker 2: stakes on the issue. Now, both Mr Costa and Mr 73 00:04:00,511 --> 00:04:03,582 Speaker 2: Ganar are from the same political party which is the 74 00:04:03,591 --> 00:04:07,251 Speaker 2: Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle or P D IP. Now 75 00:04:07,261 --> 00:04:10,432 Speaker 2: it is the ruling party in Indonesia and FIFA may 76 00:04:10,442 --> 00:04:12,852 Speaker 2: have regarded these two politicians as 77 00:04:12,923 --> 00:04:15,733 Speaker 2: voices from the government. And thus this is seen as 78 00:04:15,742 --> 00:04:18,592 Speaker 2: a form of intervention from the government. Now, Bali and 79 00:04:18,601 --> 00:04:21,601 Speaker 2: Central Java were also two of six provinces that were 80 00:04:21,613 --> 00:04:24,683 Speaker 2: supposed to host the matches. And with the governors of 81 00:04:24,692 --> 00:04:28,322 Speaker 2: these two provinces rejecting the Israeli team, FIFA may have 82 00:04:28,333 --> 00:04:31,322 Speaker 2: considered this as failure on the part of the local 83 00:04:31,333 --> 00:04:35,173 Speaker 2: government to honor its commitment to organize the competition. Now 84 00:04:35,183 --> 00:04:37,942 Speaker 2: it is also useful to note that Indonesia was not 85 00:04:37,952 --> 00:04:40,292 Speaker 2: the only country that got its hosting rights 86 00:04:40,463 --> 00:04:45,193 Speaker 2: vote by FIFA. On 3rd April. FIFA withdrew Peru's hosting 87 00:04:45,204 --> 00:04:48,513 Speaker 2: rights to the under 17 World Cup which is scheduled 88 00:04:48,523 --> 00:04:51,674 Speaker 2: to take place from 10th November to 2nd December this year. 89 00:04:51,683 --> 00:04:54,824 Speaker 2: FIFA said the move was made given the inability of 90 00:04:54,834 --> 00:04:58,343 Speaker 2: the host country to fulfill its commitments to completing the 91 00:04:58,354 --> 00:05:02,574 Speaker 2: infrastructure required to stage the tournament. It has been determined 92 00:05:02,584 --> 00:05:05,743 Speaker 2: that there is now not sufficient time to secure the 93 00:05:05,753 --> 00:05:07,933 Speaker 2: required investment and complete the 94 00:05:08,005 --> 00:05:11,183 Speaker 2: necessary work with the Peruvian government ahead of the tournament. Now, 95 00:05:11,195 --> 00:05:14,024 Speaker 2: what is also interesting to note is that FIFA did 96 00:05:14,035 --> 00:05:18,113 Speaker 2: not punish Peru for failing to provide proper infrastructure for 97 00:05:18,125 --> 00:05:21,894 Speaker 2: the tournament. But in Indonesia's case, FIFA had punished the 98 00:05:21,904 --> 00:05:27,135 Speaker 2: Indonesian Football Association by freezing their development fund given by FIFA. 99 00:05:27,144 --> 00:05:31,015 Speaker 2: Which means that FIFA views Indonesia's case as a more 100 00:05:31,024 --> 00:05:32,174 Speaker 2: serious offense. 101 00:05:32,184 --> 00:05:34,614 Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting that the sort of political angle would be 102 00:05:34,625 --> 00:05:35,474 Speaker 1: deemed more serious 103 00:05:35,545 --> 00:05:38,325 Speaker 1: in the infrastructure angle and be interesting to see how 104 00:05:38,335 --> 00:05:40,705 Speaker 1: that plays out for Indonesia and the consequences that it'll 105 00:05:40,716 --> 00:05:42,955 Speaker 1: have and we'll discuss it a bit later on as well. 106 00:05:42,966 --> 00:05:46,036 Speaker 1: But what was the initial reaction then by Indonesians by 107 00:05:46,045 --> 00:05:48,776 Speaker 1: and large? Because as we know, interest in football in 108 00:05:48,786 --> 00:05:49,455 Speaker 1: the country is 109 00:05:49,466 --> 00:05:53,715 Speaker 2: huge. That's right, Steve, many Indonesians were obviously clearly upset 110 00:05:53,726 --> 00:05:56,755 Speaker 2: with the decision. A football is a popular sport in 111 00:05:56,765 --> 00:06:00,544 Speaker 2: Indonesia and people want to watch and attend these games 112 00:06:00,555 --> 00:06:03,015 Speaker 2: in the stadiums. Now, fans were clearly disappointed 113 00:06:03,299 --> 00:06:06,450 Speaker 2: and there was a group called the People's football movement 114 00:06:06,459 --> 00:06:09,910 Speaker 2: who held a vigil of 1000 candles and they performed 115 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:14,390 Speaker 2: prayers showed solidarity and expressed hope for the future of 116 00:06:14,399 --> 00:06:18,238 Speaker 2: football in the country. But no one felt more devastated 117 00:06:18,250 --> 00:06:21,869 Speaker 2: than the players themselves. And many took to social media 118 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 2: to vent their anger. Critical comments were directed primarily at 119 00:06:25,928 --> 00:06:29,170 Speaker 2: the two P D IP politicians, Mr Costa and Mr Ganar. 120 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,709 Speaker 2: Now one of the players said in a youtube video 121 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:31,970 Speaker 2: that 122 00:06:32,519 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 2: these politicians don't know how hard the players worked. And 123 00:06:36,309 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 2: so they shouldn't express their opinions recklessly because the players 124 00:06:41,290 --> 00:06:44,549 Speaker 2: are the ones who suffer the consequences. Now, these players 125 00:06:44,559 --> 00:06:48,690 Speaker 2: had to compete with more than 100 others across Indonesia 126 00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:52,230 Speaker 2: to be in the national team. Only 23 players made 127 00:06:52,238 --> 00:06:54,670 Speaker 2: it to the final squad. Now, the young team had 128 00:06:54,678 --> 00:06:58,649 Speaker 2: trained together for two years and participated in training camps 129 00:06:58,660 --> 00:06:59,709 Speaker 2: abroad in Turkey, 130 00:06:59,799 --> 00:07:03,849 Speaker 2: South Korea and Spain pundit also weighed in saying that 131 00:07:03,859 --> 00:07:07,399 Speaker 2: the tournament had been a windfall for Indonesia to make 132 00:07:07,410 --> 00:07:11,109 Speaker 2: history and showcase its local talents and come out to 133 00:07:11,119 --> 00:07:15,170 Speaker 2: the radar of international football clubs. Now as during such 134 00:07:15,179 --> 00:07:19,329 Speaker 2: big matches, football scouts from various countries are always looking 135 00:07:19,339 --> 00:07:22,779 Speaker 2: out for young talents. So now these Indonesian players might 136 00:07:22,790 --> 00:07:26,989 Speaker 2: have lost that chance. But personally, I was also disappointed 137 00:07:27,369 --> 00:07:30,299 Speaker 2: I was actually looking forward to watching the games in Indonesia. 138 00:07:30,309 --> 00:07:32,380 Speaker 2: I'm a big football fan and it was a chance 139 00:07:32,390 --> 00:07:34,540 Speaker 1: I can tell you're a big football fan so I can, 140 00:07:34,549 --> 00:07:36,660 Speaker 1: and I'll tell our viewers why I can tell because 141 00:07:36,670 --> 00:07:39,299 Speaker 1: sale has a big poster behind his head of a 142 00:07:39,309 --> 00:07:42,010 Speaker 1: football team on his wall. Uh Sale. You want to 143 00:07:42,019 --> 00:07:43,410 Speaker 1: tell everyone who that is? That's 144 00:07:43,420 --> 00:07:46,739 Speaker 2: right. That's, that's Liverpool. Um that, that the picture was 145 00:07:46,750 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 2: taken when the team won the Champions League. There was 146 00:07:50,609 --> 00:07:54,579 Speaker 2: quite a good moment for football fans, especially myself. 147 00:07:54,670 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So for, for football fans, I mean, people 148 00:07:57,329 --> 00:07:59,799 Speaker 1: that love football, love football and as much as possible 149 00:07:59,809 --> 00:08:02,540 Speaker 1: want to keep politics out of it. And as you mentioned, 150 00:08:02,549 --> 00:08:05,399 Speaker 1: this was billed as the tournament of tomorrow's superstars and 151 00:08:05,410 --> 00:08:07,279 Speaker 1: these young players were going to be, you know, on 152 00:08:07,290 --> 00:08:10,709 Speaker 1: the global stage playing big international established teams. And because 153 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:12,940 Speaker 1: Indonesia was hosting, uh they would be able to play 154 00:08:12,950 --> 00:08:15,399 Speaker 1: in a tournament that they may not ordinarily have qualified for. 155 00:08:15,410 --> 00:08:15,609 Speaker 1: That's 156 00:08:15,619 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: right, Steve, you know, these players who are under 20 157 00:08:18,329 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: years old in in the competition in the tournament may 158 00:08:20,730 --> 00:08:21,899 Speaker 2: be considered boys, 159 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,510 Speaker 2: but they represent the future of football in their respective countries. 160 00:08:25,570 --> 00:08:29,470 Speaker 2: Professional football players do not have many years in their career. 161 00:08:29,500 --> 00:08:32,929 Speaker 2: Most of them are retire from playing professional football in 162 00:08:32,940 --> 00:08:35,619 Speaker 2: their late thirties. And that's why they usually start at 163 00:08:35,630 --> 00:08:38,569 Speaker 2: the top level very young when they are in their teens. Now, 164 00:08:38,580 --> 00:08:41,510 Speaker 2: the last under 20 World Cup was held in Poland 165 00:08:41,890 --> 00:08:45,500 Speaker 2: in 2019. Now one of the stars during that tournament 166 00:08:45,510 --> 00:08:50,270 Speaker 2: was Norwegian player Ellen Harlan after scoring a record of 167 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,750 Speaker 2: nine goals in a single match, you know, probably not 168 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,710 Speaker 2: many people know who Harlan was back then. But look 169 00:08:56,719 --> 00:09:00,218 Speaker 2: at Harden. Now, the Manchester City players has developed into 170 00:09:00,294 --> 00:09:05,184 Speaker 2: a devastating goal scoring machine with superhuman ability. So the 171 00:09:05,195 --> 00:09:07,635 Speaker 2: under 20 World Cup is an important platform and FIFA 172 00:09:07,645 --> 00:09:09,905 Speaker 2: has built it as a tournament of tomorrow's 173 00:09:09,914 --> 00:09:12,645 Speaker 1: superstars. Yeah, that's right. We certainly know who Erling Harland 174 00:09:12,655 --> 00:09:15,044 Speaker 1: is now. Coming back to the sort of the politics 175 00:09:15,054 --> 00:09:16,804 Speaker 1: side of it, we know that the players and football 176 00:09:16,815 --> 00:09:18,723 Speaker 1: fans all wanted this tournament to happen. 177 00:09:18,950 --> 00:09:22,309 Speaker 1: But why was there such strong opposition to Israel's participation 178 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: in the competition? And how strong is the sentiment against 179 00:09:26,010 --> 00:09:27,900 Speaker 1: Israel in Indonesia? Well, 180 00:09:27,909 --> 00:09:32,479 Speaker 2: Steve anti Israel sentiment in Indonesia, especially among groups of 181 00:09:32,489 --> 00:09:37,070 Speaker 2: Muslims is strong. We often see street demonstrations against the 182 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:38,179 Speaker 2: Israelis when there is an 183 00:09:38,255 --> 00:09:41,905 Speaker 2: attack on the Palestinian people. Muslims here are not afraid 184 00:09:41,924 --> 00:09:45,385 Speaker 2: to condemn the Israelis. Now, in fact, the Indonesian Foreign 185 00:09:45,395 --> 00:09:48,625 Speaker 2: Ministry has just condemned the Israeli police for the recent 186 00:09:48,635 --> 00:09:52,494 Speaker 2: attack on worshippers at the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem 187 00:09:52,505 --> 00:09:56,205 Speaker 2: during the holy month of Ramadan. But this football debacle 188 00:09:56,215 --> 00:10:01,343 Speaker 2: goes beyond just anti-israel sentiments in Indonesia. This has been 189 00:10:01,354 --> 00:10:06,265 Speaker 2: hugely politicized. Now, even Palestinian ambassador to Indonesia said he 190 00:10:06,275 --> 00:10:08,005 Speaker 2: had no objection to Israelis 191 00:10:08,369 --> 00:10:12,479 Speaker 2: taking part in the tournament. Now, Israeli's qualification to the 192 00:10:12,489 --> 00:10:15,718 Speaker 2: tournament was known for a long time. Even when Indonesia 193 00:10:15,729 --> 00:10:19,900 Speaker 2: gave its commitment to host the competition. But strong rejection 194 00:10:19,909 --> 00:10:23,569 Speaker 2: to the Israelis only surfaced recently within the last few months. 195 00:10:23,820 --> 00:10:28,780 Speaker 2: At first, opposition to Israeli's participation had been minimal and manageable. 196 00:10:28,789 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 2: It was restricted to just some street demonstrations by Muslim roots, 197 00:10:33,450 --> 00:10:35,049 Speaker 2: but the tone changed 198 00:10:35,403 --> 00:10:38,692 Speaker 2: and the governor of Bali and Costa voiced his rejection 199 00:10:38,703 --> 00:10:41,093 Speaker 2: of the presence of the Israeli national team on the 200 00:10:41,102 --> 00:10:44,562 Speaker 2: Resort Island. Now, this may seem strange because Bali as 201 00:10:44,572 --> 00:10:47,992 Speaker 2: you know, is a largely Hindu province and certainly not 202 00:10:48,093 --> 00:10:52,492 Speaker 2: the traditional base for conservative Muslims central Java, Governor Ganja 203 00:10:52,533 --> 00:10:56,473 Speaker 2: Prana also disapproved of the Israeli team. Now Mr Ganja 204 00:10:56,492 --> 00:11:00,312 Speaker 2: has a high electability rate in next year's presidential election. 205 00:11:00,385 --> 00:11:05,015 Speaker 2: And his objection to Australia's participation is seen also so 206 00:11:05,026 --> 00:11:08,116 Speaker 2: out of character for a person who is so friendly 207 00:11:08,125 --> 00:11:11,245 Speaker 2: and pleasant. Now, both Mr Costa and Mr Gand are 208 00:11:11,255 --> 00:11:15,176 Speaker 2: from the P D IP, which is a nationalist party, 209 00:11:15,184 --> 00:11:18,796 Speaker 2: not an Islamist party. So it was also strange for 210 00:11:18,806 --> 00:11:22,476 Speaker 2: a nationalist party to play the religious card. Now, Mr 211 00:11:22,486 --> 00:11:25,295 Speaker 2: Ganja explained that the nation needed to honor 212 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,500 Speaker 2: the wishes of first president Cardinal who had supported the 213 00:11:29,510 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 2: independence of Palestine Sukarno is the father of P D 214 00:11:33,570 --> 00:11:36,429 Speaker 2: IP S chairwoman Megawati Sukarno Putri. 215 00:11:36,729 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 2: In the absence of any credible explanation. Many speculate Mr 216 00:11:42,289 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: Costa and Mr Ganar were acting upon instructions from M 217 00:11:46,599 --> 00:11:50,710 Speaker 2: Megawati herself. Now the P D IP strongly opposed the 218 00:11:50,719 --> 00:11:54,728 Speaker 2: presence of the Israeli team because of its ideology which 219 00:11:54,739 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 2: was largely formulated by Sukarno was against the establishment of 220 00:11:58,770 --> 00:12:02,539 Speaker 2: Israel for the country was then seen as a representation 221 00:12:02,549 --> 00:12:05,159 Speaker 2: of western colonialism. Now 222 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,750 Speaker 2: in 1958 and we go back to history in 1958. 223 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:13,150 Speaker 2: Then President Sukarno ordered the Indonesian team to withdraw from 224 00:12:13,159 --> 00:12:16,909 Speaker 2: a qualification match with Israel for the World Cup in Sweden, 225 00:12:16,919 --> 00:12:20,869 Speaker 2: citing the nation's solidarity with the Palestinian people. Now the 226 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,489 Speaker 2: party said this is not about religion 227 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,460 Speaker 2: but about independence as the right of all nations. So 228 00:12:27,469 --> 00:12:30,739 Speaker 2: P D IP members feel that they should follow and 229 00:12:30,750 --> 00:12:33,039 Speaker 2: honor the party's history. 230 00:12:33,049 --> 00:12:35,830 Speaker 1: You know, so for this local context is invaluable to 231 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,260 Speaker 1: our listeners to hear about the domestic politics at play. 232 00:12:38,270 --> 00:12:40,719 Speaker 1: That is the factors behind the scenes of all these 233 00:12:40,729 --> 00:12:43,570 Speaker 1: developments that have been happening. As you mentioned, this protest 234 00:12:43,580 --> 00:12:46,968 Speaker 1: only kicked off in the intensity and in more recent months, 235 00:12:46,979 --> 00:12:47,510 Speaker 1: but they didn't 236 00:12:47,609 --> 00:12:50,739 Speaker 1: also become physical protests. And you know, we saw people 237 00:12:50,750 --> 00:12:53,539 Speaker 1: on the streets. I saw strongly worded banners during the 238 00:12:53,549 --> 00:12:58,049 Speaker 1: protests in Jakarta, sort of criticizing Israel and even drawing 239 00:12:58,059 --> 00:13:02,299 Speaker 1: President Jokowi's name into things. How real was the security 240 00:13:02,309 --> 00:13:02,539 Speaker 1: risk 241 00:13:02,549 --> 00:13:05,830 Speaker 2: though? Yeah, there were protests in Jakarta, people demonstrating on 242 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,099 Speaker 2: the streets now. Any security risk cannot be underestimated, right. 243 00:13:10,130 --> 00:13:11,140 Speaker 2: I'm sure the 244 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,900 Speaker 2: security agencies in Indonesia have information. They have the intelligence 245 00:13:15,909 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: to know how big the risk is. The P D 246 00:13:18,530 --> 00:13:21,330 Speaker 2: IP has also cited potential terror attacks as one of 247 00:13:21,340 --> 00:13:25,169 Speaker 2: the reasons for its opposition to the participation of Israel 248 00:13:25,179 --> 00:13:29,020 Speaker 2: in the under 20 football competition, particularly in Bali because 249 00:13:29,039 --> 00:13:32,030 Speaker 2: Indonesia's worst terror attack happened in Bali more than 20 250 00:13:32,039 --> 00:13:32,690 Speaker 2: years ago 251 00:13:32,843 --> 00:13:36,302 Speaker 2: when the Jemaah Islamiah militant groups trapped two nightclubs killing 252 00:13:36,312 --> 00:13:40,153 Speaker 2: more than 200 people and injuring hundreds more. The party 253 00:13:40,163 --> 00:13:45,213 Speaker 2: said there's less than zero tolerance of any potential security threat. Now, 254 00:13:45,223 --> 00:13:47,762 Speaker 2: the Indonesian government has said that it did not see 255 00:13:47,773 --> 00:13:52,953 Speaker 2: any threats against the Israel football team. Recently, Mujahir Adi 256 00:13:52,963 --> 00:13:54,192 Speaker 2: who is the Coordinating Minister 257 00:13:54,285 --> 00:13:58,635 Speaker 2: for Human Development and Culture first told Tempo magazine that 258 00:13:58,736 --> 00:14:02,486 Speaker 2: many Israeli delegations have attended events in Indonesia, not only 259 00:14:02,495 --> 00:14:06,915 Speaker 2: during Mr Widodo's era, but also before that, but they 260 00:14:06,926 --> 00:14:10,806 Speaker 2: were invited by international organizations. Mr Muay said that Indonesia's 261 00:14:10,815 --> 00:14:16,255 Speaker 2: Foreign Affairs Ministry has the requirements for Israeli delegations that 262 00:14:16,265 --> 00:14:20,616 Speaker 2: enter Indonesia. Now these include that Israelis do not play 263 00:14:20,625 --> 00:14:21,875 Speaker 2: their national anthem 264 00:14:22,119 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 2: and they do not display their flag. There was one 265 00:14:25,010 --> 00:14:28,190 Speaker 2: other condition relevant to the football tournament which the Indonesian 266 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,859 Speaker 2: authorities told FIFA that was that the Israeli team had 267 00:14:31,869 --> 00:14:34,169 Speaker 2: to play in empty stadiums during the tournament. 268 00:14:34,489 --> 00:14:38,020 Speaker 2: Now, authorities had guaranteed the safety of all teams participating 269 00:14:38,030 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 2: in the under 20 World Cup including the Israeli team 270 00:14:41,599 --> 00:14:46,450 Speaker 2: during all activities in Indonesia. While it's hard to downplay 271 00:14:46,460 --> 00:14:49,940 Speaker 2: the security threats posed by the global soccer event. The 272 00:14:49,950 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: anti terror operation launched by police in recent years are 273 00:14:54,289 --> 00:14:55,270 Speaker 2: believed to have weakened 274 00:14:55,419 --> 00:15:00,070 Speaker 2: local terrorist cells. Now, last year, the government successfully held 275 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,390 Speaker 2: the high profile group of 20 summit in Bali without 276 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 2: any serious security 277 00:15:05,090 --> 00:15:08,239 Speaker 1: incidents. All right, thanks. We're gonna pause for breath for 278 00:15:08,250 --> 00:15:11,270 Speaker 1: a moment. Next on C N A correspondent, you'll hear 279 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: President Jokowi's response to FIFA and I'll ask about the 280 00:15:14,530 --> 00:15:16,289 Speaker 1: future of Indonesian football. 281 00:15:23,289 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: Are you looking for ways to make your money work 282 00:15:25,969 --> 00:15:29,940 Speaker 1: harder for you or need tips on saving investing and 283 00:15:29,950 --> 00:15:33,989 Speaker 1: making financial decisions? Join me, Andrea Heng on money talks, 284 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,059 Speaker 1: C N A S top personal finance podcast. 285 00:15:37,349 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: From investment basics to the fire movement and legacy planning. 286 00:15:41,289 --> 00:15:45,140 Speaker 1: Money talks, looks at financial trends and stories that matter 287 00:15:45,150 --> 00:15:48,390 Speaker 1: to you. Check out our complete playlist on the C 288 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:53,169 Speaker 1: N app, Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 289 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,119 Speaker 1: Follow us or subscribe for new episodes every Tuesday. 290 00:16:07,409 --> 00:16:09,500 Speaker 1: You're back with me, Steve and you're listening to how 291 00:16:09,510 --> 00:16:12,659 Speaker 1: Indonesia was stripped of hosting the FIFA men's under 20 292 00:16:12,669 --> 00:16:15,429 Speaker 1: World Cup. Here's President Joko Widodo's response 293 00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:21,460 Speaker 1: I have instructed the chairman of the Indonesian Football Association 294 00:16:21,469 --> 00:16:24,630 Speaker 1: P S si to prepare a blueprint, to prepare a 295 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,890 Speaker 1: road map to transform football in Indonesia to be sent 296 00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: to FIFA immediately and to continue communicating with FIFA, with 297 00:16:31,890 --> 00:16:34,789 Speaker 1: the president of FIFA and its council for us to 298 00:16:34,799 --> 00:16:39,409 Speaker 1: not be sanctioned by FIFA. Sai is Indonesia correspondent is 299 00:16:39,419 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: still with me. What is the political fallout from this episode? 300 00:16:43,530 --> 00:16:45,679 Speaker 1: And what else has President Jokowi said? 301 00:16:46,150 --> 00:16:49,739 Speaker 2: Well, Steve Mr Widodo has sought to appease the masses 302 00:16:49,750 --> 00:16:53,830 Speaker 2: of disappointed soccer fans by saying that Indonesia as a 303 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,299 Speaker 2: whole must learn to look past this incident. He said 304 00:16:57,309 --> 00:17:00,979 Speaker 2: the country needs to respect fifa's decision. He said Indonesia 305 00:17:00,989 --> 00:17:03,140 Speaker 2: must look to the future and not look back 306 00:17:03,205 --> 00:17:06,454 Speaker 2: back and let this episode be a valuable lesson for 307 00:17:06,464 --> 00:17:10,974 Speaker 2: everyone and for Indonesian football. Now, Mr is also a 308 00:17:10,984 --> 00:17:13,685 Speaker 2: member of the P D IP and by continuing to 309 00:17:13,694 --> 00:17:17,454 Speaker 2: allow the Israeli football team to come to Indonesia, he 310 00:17:17,464 --> 00:17:20,194 Speaker 2: had chosen to break ranks with his party. 311 00:17:20,420 --> 00:17:23,089 Speaker 2: Now, the under 20 World Cup competition was supposed to 312 00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:26,660 Speaker 2: be one of his biggest legacies and he would not 313 00:17:26,670 --> 00:17:30,469 Speaker 2: have wanted to tame his national and a global reputation, 314 00:17:30,479 --> 00:17:35,410 Speaker 2: but it is incomprehensible how he had let the situation 315 00:17:35,489 --> 00:17:37,978 Speaker 2: get out of control since he's a member of the 316 00:17:37,989 --> 00:17:40,699 Speaker 2: P D IP. So this has been a slap on 317 00:17:40,709 --> 00:17:45,239 Speaker 2: Mr Widodo's face actually and an embarrassment of significant proportions, 318 00:17:45,250 --> 00:17:47,819 Speaker 2: but he should be aware by now that his ruling 319 00:17:47,829 --> 00:17:50,479 Speaker 2: coalition has never been more fractious 320 00:17:50,729 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 2: and this could spell trouble for the remainder of his presidency. 321 00:17:54,050 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 2: It is unclear how this will impact Mr Ganja's electoral 322 00:17:58,530 --> 00:18:01,489 Speaker 2: standing while he may lose a lot of support for 323 00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:06,729 Speaker 2: his 2024 presidential bid, particularly from soccer fans. He could 324 00:18:06,739 --> 00:18:11,869 Speaker 2: also win new converts, particularly among conservative Muslim voters. 325 00:18:12,349 --> 00:18:16,319 Speaker 1: And are there larger consequences for Indonesia beyond just football? 326 00:18:16,599 --> 00:18:21,060 Speaker 2: Indeed, definitely this episode will likely raise questions about Indonesia's 327 00:18:21,069 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 2: credentials to host major international events. The country has big 328 00:18:25,689 --> 00:18:29,079 Speaker 2: sporting ambitions and as part of Mr Widodo's long term 329 00:18:29,089 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: plans Indonesia submitted in November last year, a formal bid 330 00:18:33,290 --> 00:18:38,310 Speaker 2: to host the 2036 Olympic Games. Koi has also previously 331 00:18:38,319 --> 00:18:40,099 Speaker 2: expressed his dream for 332 00:18:40,275 --> 00:18:44,084 Speaker 2: Tunisia to eventually host the World Cup. Talks are underway 333 00:18:44,094 --> 00:18:48,314 Speaker 2: among several Southeast Asian nations including Indonesia to launch a 334 00:18:48,344 --> 00:18:53,064 Speaker 2: joint bid to host the senior soccer tournament in 2034. 335 00:18:53,125 --> 00:18:55,464 Speaker 2: So those dreams may need to take a back seat 336 00:18:55,474 --> 00:18:59,024 Speaker 2: for now. The country's politicians may 1st need to exercise 337 00:18:59,035 --> 00:19:03,135 Speaker 2: more caution and restraint in their statements or they risk 338 00:19:03,145 --> 00:19:06,864 Speaker 2: jeopardizing Indonesia's sporting ambitions in the long run. 339 00:19:07,189 --> 00:19:10,969 Speaker 2: Now, there's also the economic element to Indonesia's failure to 340 00:19:10,979 --> 00:19:14,579 Speaker 2: host the the under 20 World Cup event. The Tourism 341 00:19:14,589 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 2: Ministry said that fifa's decision has cost Indonesia 3.7 trillion Rupiah. 342 00:19:20,689 --> 00:19:25,698 Speaker 2: That's more than $369 million. This is the amount of 343 00:19:25,709 --> 00:19:27,819 Speaker 2: funds the nation has already spent 344 00:19:28,050 --> 00:19:31,979 Speaker 2: to renovate soccer stadiums and the loss of a potential 345 00:19:31,989 --> 00:19:35,660 Speaker 2: tourism boom that could have been generated by the global 346 00:19:35,670 --> 00:19:40,180 Speaker 2: soccer event. Now, the government was eyeing 7.4 million unique 347 00:19:40,189 --> 00:19:44,550 Speaker 2: visits from foreign tourists and 1.4 billion local holiday makers 348 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:45,540 Speaker 2: throughout the year. 349 00:19:45,969 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 2: There's also the loss of revenue from a ticket sales 350 00:19:49,050 --> 00:19:51,739 Speaker 2: on match days. The six stadiums that were supposed to 351 00:19:51,750 --> 00:19:54,869 Speaker 2: be used for the tournament can accommodate a total of 352 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,050 Speaker 2: about 300,000 Spectators. And, and even though the price of 353 00:19:59,060 --> 00:20:02,050 Speaker 2: tickets has not been announced yet, this could still be 354 00:20:02,060 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 2: a significant loss in revenue. 355 00:20:03,849 --> 00:20:07,260 Speaker 2: There's also the loss of sponsorship deals and revenue from 356 00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:11,780 Speaker 2: the sale of merchandise, jerseys and other football accessories. You know, 357 00:20:11,790 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 2: it 358 00:20:11,890 --> 00:20:14,478 Speaker 1: does certainly seem like a big loss for Indonesia on 359 00:20:14,489 --> 00:20:17,169 Speaker 1: so many fronts both in sort of its standing in 360 00:20:17,180 --> 00:20:19,349 Speaker 1: the world, but also loss of the people that are 361 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: on the ground that would benefit from having this tournament 362 00:20:21,689 --> 00:20:25,380 Speaker 1: hosted by Indonesia going forward though. What can Indonesia do 363 00:20:25,390 --> 00:20:28,979 Speaker 1: to mitigate the possibility of more sanctions that might come 364 00:20:28,989 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: from FIFA as a result of this 365 00:20:30,939 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: seemingly incredibly last minute decision to strip it as being 366 00:20:34,930 --> 00:20:38,688 Speaker 2: host. Well, Steve a few days after FIFA stripped Indonesia 367 00:20:38,699 --> 00:20:42,609 Speaker 2: from hosting the World Cup under 20 competition, the chief 368 00:20:42,619 --> 00:20:47,380 Speaker 2: of the Indonesian Football Association, uh Eric flew to Paris 369 00:20:47,390 --> 00:20:50,469 Speaker 2: and France to meet officials from FIFA in a bid 370 00:20:50,479 --> 00:20:54,260 Speaker 2: to lobby for no sanctions on Indonesia. Mr Eric tried 371 00:20:54,270 --> 00:20:58,349 Speaker 2: to convince FIFA that Indonesia is serious about transforming football 372 00:20:58,359 --> 00:20:58,649 Speaker 2: in the country. 373 00:20:59,287 --> 00:21:03,358 Speaker 2: Mr Eric showed officials from FIFA Indonesia's blueprint and road 374 00:21:03,368 --> 00:21:08,387 Speaker 2: map which includes various programs and potential of Indonesian football 375 00:21:08,397 --> 00:21:12,417 Speaker 2: long term plans for tournaments from an early age infrastructure 376 00:21:12,427 --> 00:21:16,727 Speaker 2: improvements and commercialization of football in the country. Now, despite 377 00:21:16,738 --> 00:21:20,767 Speaker 2: Mr Eric's efforts, FIFA punished Indonesia further by freezing a 378 00:21:20,858 --> 00:21:24,968 Speaker 2: development fund. He had given the country earlier. FIFA said 379 00:21:24,988 --> 00:21:26,446 Speaker 2: that it provisionally, 380 00:21:26,536 --> 00:21:29,816 Speaker 2: he recommended a restriction on the use of FIFA forward 381 00:21:29,826 --> 00:21:34,765 Speaker 2: development funds for the Indonesian Football Association and would reconsider 382 00:21:34,776 --> 00:21:39,526 Speaker 2: lifting the sanctions after reviewing Indonesia's plan to improve on 383 00:21:39,536 --> 00:21:42,095 Speaker 2: its football. Now, the fund was given to Indonesia in 384 00:21:42,105 --> 00:21:45,885 Speaker 2: January this year and the football association would have access 385 00:21:45,895 --> 00:21:49,615 Speaker 2: to the fund until 2026. Now the freezing of the 386 00:21:49,625 --> 00:21:53,545 Speaker 2: fund would have an impact on the association's operations but 387 00:21:53,635 --> 00:21:53,946 Speaker 2: the 388 00:21:54,333 --> 00:21:59,744 Speaker 2: financial loss is not likely to paralyze the association significantly. 389 00:21:59,754 --> 00:22:03,792 Speaker 2: Observers said Mr Eric as a businessman and a politician 390 00:22:03,803 --> 00:22:06,823 Speaker 2: has more than enough resources and access to make up 391 00:22:06,833 --> 00:22:10,654 Speaker 2: for any shortfall. The association was relieved that FIFA did 392 00:22:10,663 --> 00:22:14,004 Speaker 2: not slap the country with a heavier penalty and got 393 00:22:14,013 --> 00:22:18,063 Speaker 2: away with just an administrative sanction. Mr Eric said that 394 00:22:18,073 --> 00:22:21,374 Speaker 2: Indonesia has been lucky to escape with a yellow card 395 00:22:21,384 --> 00:22:21,984 Speaker 2: instead 396 00:22:22,131 --> 00:22:25,061 Speaker 2: of a red card. What this means is that Indonesia 397 00:22:25,071 --> 00:22:29,411 Speaker 2: can still compete in international competitions and the national team 398 00:22:29,421 --> 00:22:31,942 Speaker 2: will be able to take part in the upcoming Southeast 399 00:22:31,952 --> 00:22:35,101 Speaker 2: Asian Games or Sea Games in Phnom Penh, in Cambodia 400 00:22:35,112 --> 00:22:39,011 Speaker 2: in May. Now, some people may disagree with fifa's actions 401 00:22:39,021 --> 00:22:42,722 Speaker 2: or sanctions saying that it has practiced double standards by 402 00:22:42,732 --> 00:22:46,421 Speaker 2: not allowing earlier the Russian football team to participate in 403 00:22:46,432 --> 00:22:49,842 Speaker 2: the World Cup last year because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 404 00:22:49,930 --> 00:22:53,579 Speaker 2: So that can also be seen as mixing spots with politics. 405 00:22:53,589 --> 00:22:53,829 Speaker 2: It's 406 00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:58,420 Speaker 1: getting increasingly hard going forwards to separate sports from politics. 407 00:22:58,430 --> 00:23:00,380 Speaker 1: Given all the events that are happening around the world 408 00:23:00,390 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: and all the conflicting countries that have varying interests as well. 409 00:23:04,770 --> 00:23:07,420 Speaker 1: So for one last question for you about the future 410 00:23:07,430 --> 00:23:10,910 Speaker 1: of football in Indonesia, this must be seen as a 411 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,010 Speaker 1: setback for the domestic game. Indeed, 412 00:23:13,020 --> 00:23:16,938 Speaker 2: Steve the football, the future of football, Indonesia at the moment, 413 00:23:16,949 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 2: at least 414 00:23:18,010 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 2: in the short term, it's not looking very good. Now 415 00:23:21,010 --> 00:23:25,739 Speaker 2: Indonesia has been down that road before and that was painful. 416 00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:31,619 Speaker 2: Now in 2015 FIFA suspended Indonesia's membership over perceived government 417 00:23:31,630 --> 00:23:34,300 Speaker 2: interventions in the Indonesian Football Association. 418 00:23:34,650 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 2: The suspension was just over a year but it left 419 00:23:38,209 --> 00:23:42,500 Speaker 2: lasting damage to the nation's football world. Now Indonesia had 420 00:23:42,510 --> 00:23:47,099 Speaker 2: crawled back in its FIFA ranking from 100 and 79th 421 00:23:47,109 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 2: in 2015 to 151st last year, which is still far 422 00:23:52,530 --> 00:23:57,020 Speaker 2: from its historic best ranking of 76. Now Indonesia is 423 00:23:57,030 --> 00:24:01,369 Speaker 2: also barely in the top five among 11 Southeast Asian 424 00:24:01,380 --> 00:24:02,839 Speaker 2: countries in this region. 425 00:24:03,130 --> 00:24:07,699 Speaker 2: But after this year, under 20 World Cup debacle, Indonesia 426 00:24:07,709 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 2: can expect to see its ranking fall again. Indonesia have 427 00:24:11,410 --> 00:24:16,319 Speaker 2: scored an own goal in playing political football. The referee 428 00:24:16,329 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 2: may be giving a penalty against Indonesia and even extra 429 00:24:20,650 --> 00:24:24,459 Speaker 2: time may not help the country to win this game. 430 00:24:24,810 --> 00:24:28,089 Speaker 1: So eloquently put, thank you as always for speaking to 431 00:24:28,099 --> 00:24:29,329 Speaker 1: us here on CNN correspondent. 432 00:24:29,430 --> 00:24:30,900 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Steve. 433 00:24:31,229 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: The Cambridge Dictionary defines sport as a game, competition or activity, 434 00:24:36,130 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: needing physical effort and skill that is played or done 435 00:24:39,650 --> 00:24:43,389 Speaker 1: according to rules for enjoyment and, or as a job. 436 00:24:43,790 --> 00:24:47,239 Speaker 1: And it defines politics as the activities of the government, 437 00:24:47,250 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: members of law making organizations or people who try to 438 00:24:50,890 --> 00:24:53,020 Speaker 1: influence the way a country is governed 439 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,619 Speaker 1: in Indonesia, both are hotly contested and their overlap looks 440 00:24:57,630 --> 00:25:00,810 Speaker 1: set to continue at the expense of those that love 441 00:25:00,819 --> 00:25:04,050 Speaker 1: the beautiful game. The TV version C N A correspondent 442 00:25:04,060 --> 00:25:06,430 Speaker 1: airs on C N A every Wednesday at 9 30 PM. 443 00:25:06,439 --> 00:25:08,149 Speaker 1: You can also catch up with it wherever you like 444 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,609 Speaker 1: on C N A dot Asia do like and subscribe 445 00:25:10,619 --> 00:25:12,938 Speaker 1: to this podcast version that takes you behind the scenes 446 00:25:12,949 --> 00:25:16,420 Speaker 1: with our correspondents. Thank you for listening. Our podcast team 447 00:25:16,430 --> 00:25:20,010 Speaker 1: is made up of Yin Christina Robert Farra Ong and me.