WEBVTT - How much heat can humans take? | EP 3

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<v Speaker 1>This is a C. N. A

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<v Speaker 2>podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to the climate conversations with me julie you.

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<v Speaker 2>We have all experienced days when we are home and

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<v Speaker 2>sweating buckets. The full blast of a fan doesn't work.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's energy guzzling air conditioning to the rescue temperatures

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<v Speaker 2>have been soaring in Singapore with the mercury hitting a

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<v Speaker 2>merciless

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<v Speaker 2>35° on some days.

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<v Speaker 2>But according to data, Singapore is heating up twice as

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<v Speaker 2>fast as the rest of the world maximum daily temperatures

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<v Speaker 2>can reach 35-37° by the year. 2100 other countries already

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<v Speaker 2>experience hotter temperatures than this.

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<v Speaker 2>But the reason this spells trouble for Singapore

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<v Speaker 2>as a humidity is high all year round, which can

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<v Speaker 2>intensify the impact of heat. Urban planners. Architects and climate

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<v Speaker 2>experts are all racing to redesign our buildings to keep

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<v Speaker 2>us cool. So as the city changes to cope with

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<v Speaker 2>extreme heat, how will our daily lives change along with it.

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<v Speaker 2>This history holds some answers for us and how different

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<v Speaker 2>groups from migrant workers to managers and offices adapt to

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<v Speaker 2>climate change and will a productivity plummet when things get

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<v Speaker 2>too hot to handle with me to discuss this hot

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<v Speaker 2>topic is Associate Professor Gregory Clancy, historian and leader of

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<v Speaker 2>the Science Technology and society cluster at the ASIA Research Institute.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome Professor Clancy, thank you so much for joining us.

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<v Speaker 2>Great to see

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<v Speaker 1>you. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>So, Professor Heat sometimes gets overlooked because we can't really

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<v Speaker 2>see it and very little has been written on the

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<v Speaker 2>history or social cultural engagement surrounding it in ASIA. So

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<v Speaker 2>what drew you to this particular area of study why

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<v Speaker 2>urban heat

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<v Speaker 1>for a long time at the ASia Research Institute where

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<v Speaker 1>I work, we've been looking at natural disasters and we've

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<v Speaker 1>done a lot of histories of earthquakes and floods and hurricanes,

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<v Speaker 1>but we realize that the biggest looming natural disaster in

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<v Speaker 1>our future is heat. But as you say, we know

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<v Speaker 1>very little about it from a humanities and social science

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<v Speaker 1>perspective about

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<v Speaker 1>how people have dealt with heat in the past.

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<v Speaker 1>We don't know much about the history of basic technologies

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<v Speaker 1>like air conditioning

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<v Speaker 1>and so we thought as mainly historians, we would do

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<v Speaker 1>a project which focused on heat but also provide some

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<v Speaker 1>lessons for the present and future based upon the past

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<v Speaker 1>as well.

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<v Speaker 1>So we've constructed a website which anybody can access. It's

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<v Speaker 1>called Heat in urban Asia. If you just type in

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<v Speaker 1>heat in Urban Asia, you'll find the link to it.

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<v Speaker 1>The subtitle is past, present and future.

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<v Speaker 1>And to begin, we chose a number of Asian cities,

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<v Speaker 1>Singapore being one another, Delhi 3rd Wuhan and 1/4 Hong Kong.

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<v Speaker 1>But you can see by our website, we've expanded well

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<v Speaker 1>beyond those. It has a couple of features which

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<v Speaker 1>People might be interested in. One is there are maps

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<v Speaker 1>of Singapore from the 1820s onward showing where all the

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<v Speaker 1>weather stations were and what types of weather information. Climate

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<v Speaker 1>information was being collected how and by whom.

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<v Speaker 1>We also have a map of Asia, where you can

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<v Speaker 1>click on links in particular cities to see how temperatures

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<v Speaker 1>have risen all the way from Singapore to Delhi to

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<v Speaker 1>Seoul and Korea.

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<v Speaker 1>And there's also a series of articles, short articles very

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<v Speaker 1>readable by our team members

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<v Speaker 1>about the cultural and social aspects of heat historically. For example,

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<v Speaker 1>the history of cold storage,

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<v Speaker 1>how he may have affected fires in the past in

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<v Speaker 1>Singapore etcetera.

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<v Speaker 1>So I really recommend everybody take a look at our website.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a very comprehensive study and the project is titled

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<v Speaker 2>Heat in Urban Asia, Professor, you are a historian. So

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<v Speaker 2>take us 2030 years back into history of sunny Singapore

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<v Speaker 2>and how hot was it then? How do residents cope

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<v Speaker 2>with the heat in the past?

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<v Speaker 1>Singapore has always been hot of course, but it's interesting

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<v Speaker 1>to look at british colonial records of english colonizers who

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<v Speaker 1>came here from India

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<v Speaker 1>always described Singapore as an easy posting compared to India

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<v Speaker 1>because it was cooler. So within the tropics colonies, Singapore

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't considered to be among the hottest places.

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<v Speaker 1>And ironically, Singapore is much hotter now than it was

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<v Speaker 1>in the colonial period. We always used to say to ourselves,

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<v Speaker 1>how did people endure heat in the past? Of course

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<v Speaker 1>it was hot in the past and they didn't have

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<v Speaker 1>air conditioning,

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<v Speaker 1>But it's harder now. We've gathered temperatures here ever since 1820,

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<v Speaker 1>the average temperature in 1820 remained relatively steady all the

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<v Speaker 1>way up to the 1940s.

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<v Speaker 1>If you had lived in that period, you wouldn't have

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<v Speaker 1>noticed changes from year to year, but the average temperature

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't have changed much now since 1948.

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<v Speaker 1>We know that temperatures have risen here

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<v Speaker 1>every decade by about 0.25 degrees so cumulatively, in the

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<v Speaker 1>lifetime of the pioneer generation. I mean, from 1948 onwards,

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<v Speaker 1>the temperature has risen 1.6 degrees centigrade, which is substantial. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people may not have noticed it because

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<v Speaker 1>it's been gradual, but it's had a big effect on

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<v Speaker 1>what we call the urban heat island effect, which I

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<v Speaker 1>can talk about a little bit more later and it

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<v Speaker 1>of course had a big effect on nature as well

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<v Speaker 1>as on human comfort ability. We are in the midst

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<v Speaker 1>of something unique, something that we've never experienced before.

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<v Speaker 2>Indeed. And professor, you've alluded to some of the cases

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<v Speaker 2>back in history. Do you have more examples of what

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<v Speaker 2>history can teach us to better prepare for the world

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<v Speaker 2>that's heating up?

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<v Speaker 1>I go back and forth. It's been fascinating to go

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<v Speaker 1>back and look at how people dealt with heat in

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<v Speaker 1>the past and we've come up with all sorts of

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<v Speaker 1>interesting anecdote or interesting pictures of how people have dealt

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<v Speaker 1>with heat.

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<v Speaker 1>A good example is rotten furniture, which was actually meant

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<v Speaker 1>to cool bodies off because it had little air holes

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<v Speaker 1>all over it.

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<v Speaker 1>Rotten furniture was abandoned for plush furniture at a particular point.

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<v Speaker 1>But maybe we have to think about going back to

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<v Speaker 1>those sorts of things so we can find little clues

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<v Speaker 1>in the past about things that

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<v Speaker 1>we've abandoned which were very common

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<v Speaker 1>before. Air conditioning. But the past isn't a perfect guide

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<v Speaker 1>to the future because what we're experiencing now is unprecedented.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just how worried should we be about this? As

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<v Speaker 2>you mentioned, the Singapore has been heating up twice as

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<v Speaker 2>fast as the world average over the past six decades.

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<v Speaker 2>What's your assessment to help people in the country are

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<v Speaker 2>dealing with surging heat?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, the way that most of us are dealing with

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<v Speaker 1>surging heat is air conditioning which is itself a problem.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's a chicken and egg thing is it gets hotter.

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<v Speaker 1>We add more air conditioning and the air conditioning helps

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<v Speaker 1>to increase the heat because every time you cool inside,

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<v Speaker 1>you're throwing heat outside and of course you're using energy

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<v Speaker 1>more fossil fuels. So I think architects are

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<v Speaker 1>more and more thinking about alternatives ways to at least

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<v Speaker 1>reduce air conditioning by

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<v Speaker 1>designing buildings so that they're more naturally cool. And that

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<v Speaker 1>involves drawing upon perhaps some past architectural elements which we've

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<v Speaker 1>forgotten about. For example, more than 1000 years ago in Cairo,

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<v Speaker 1>they invented things called wind catchers which are still now

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<v Speaker 1>coming back in the Middle East. They're basically like chimneys

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<v Speaker 1>that go up and catch wind and push it down

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<v Speaker 1>into buildings as a way of natural air conditioning

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<v Speaker 1>and architects are more and more looking at those historic

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<v Speaker 1>non mechanical ways and also involving different materials and thicknesses

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<v Speaker 1>of walls etcetera, which we relied upon exclusively for centuries.

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<v Speaker 1>We may need to rely more and more upon again

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<v Speaker 1>because air conditioning is not the answer in the future,

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<v Speaker 1>unless we can make it much much more efficient than

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<v Speaker 1>it is now and reduce the heat, it's been generated

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<v Speaker 1>by it.

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<v Speaker 2>Professor, it's not just Singapore, but you've also looked into

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<v Speaker 2>three other cities, you mentioned Hong kong Delhi and Wuhan

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<v Speaker 2>that are well known for their steering summers, what does

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<v Speaker 2>the hotter global future mean for places that are already

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<v Speaker 2>so hot to begin with. How are they dealing with it?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, India is a particularly striking case because parts of

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<v Speaker 1>India have always been among the hottest places in Asia

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<v Speaker 1>and they're getting hotter and hotter.

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<v Speaker 1>The governments all around the world are responding with mitigation plans.

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<v Speaker 1>Singapore I think has done really well. You can see

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<v Speaker 1>the results of all the tree planting

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<v Speaker 1>trees are maybe the front line of defense at least

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<v Speaker 1>in cities. I think everybody agrees with that, that we

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<v Speaker 1>just need to plant many more trees. Singapore is remarkably

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<v Speaker 1>green city, but most asian cities are not and you

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<v Speaker 1>know that from travel,

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<v Speaker 1>this gets into the problem of the urban heat island effect.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of people feel helpless with climate change because

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<v Speaker 1>I think what can we do about rising oceans, What

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<v Speaker 1>can we do about typhoons and storms? One thing we

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<v Speaker 1>can do

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<v Speaker 1>is try to mitigate the rising heat that's caused by

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<v Speaker 1>the city itself. In other words, the global climate change

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<v Speaker 1>is only one component of the reason we're hotter. Another

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<v Speaker 1>component is what's called the urban heat island effect, which

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<v Speaker 1>is that

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<v Speaker 1>cities as they get dense and built up and they

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<v Speaker 1>cover natural ground with pavement and with buildings, the buildings

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<v Speaker 1>absorb heat during the day and then they release it

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<v Speaker 1>at night.

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<v Speaker 1>So the city never cools and part of the increase

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<v Speaker 1>in temperature as little to do with global climate change.

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<v Speaker 1>But it has a lot to do with local

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<v Speaker 1>infrastructure and how it's made. Now

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<v Speaker 1>planting lots of trees which the government is doing is

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<v Speaker 1>a way to help mitigate that. Along with other things

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<v Speaker 1>like putting greenery on top of buildings designing buildings so

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<v Speaker 1>that they channel wind which is being done in Singapore

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<v Speaker 1>more and more. We can now use computer generated models

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<v Speaker 1>to figure out how wind off the ocean works its

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<v Speaker 1>way through the city and take advantage of that to

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<v Speaker 1>cool areas of the city and of course reducing air

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<v Speaker 1>conditioning as part of that as well. Those are things

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<v Speaker 1>we can do locally to make ourselves more comfortable

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<v Speaker 1>that doesn't affect sea level rises, but it does affect health,

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<v Speaker 1>particularly elderly people, they're very vulnerable to eat.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, my name is steve Lie and I'm Teresa Tang

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<v Speaker 1>and we are the hosts of the new podcast CNN

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<v Speaker 1>correspondent

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<v Speaker 2>from new york to

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<v Speaker 1>Bangkok, join us as we kick back

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<v Speaker 2>and chat with our colleagues

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<v Speaker 1>across the globe about the

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<v Speaker 2>latest news developments.

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<v Speaker 1>Look out for our weekly episodes wherever you get your podcasts.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about those people who are more vulnerable individuals

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<v Speaker 2>or in the sector society who will be most affected

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<v Speaker 2>because when we look at the social impact side of things,

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<v Speaker 2>the reality is that heat waves or periods of extreme

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<v Speaker 2>worms do not affect everyone in the same way. So

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<v Speaker 2>what are some of the main factors that lead to

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<v Speaker 2>this vulnerability and what can we do to address these?

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<v Speaker 1>We're doing a lot of things already. And one is

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<v Speaker 1>that to cover as many outdoor walk spaces as possible

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<v Speaker 1>so that people aren't out in the sun much and

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<v Speaker 1>don't experience heatstroke. I think there's a lot of local

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<v Speaker 1>habits which have perfected over time, which are excellent strategies.

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<v Speaker 1>One is to be careful about what part of the

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<v Speaker 1>day you go out, how far you go. I notice

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<v Speaker 1>that there's more and more talk about

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<v Speaker 1>air conditioning, bus stops where people have to wait for

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<v Speaker 1>long periods of time and I can't help it, but

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<v Speaker 1>are very dangerous, particularly for elderly people. There's a very

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<v Speaker 1>good argument that the older you get, the more you

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<v Speaker 1>do need to depend on air conditioning. But the alternative

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<v Speaker 1>side of that is I think younger people

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<v Speaker 1>need to rely less on air conditioning. For example, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sitting here under a fan

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm from a very cold place. I'm from one

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<v Speaker 1>of the coldest parts of North America. I've been in

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<v Speaker 1>Singapore for 22 years and when I first came here

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<v Speaker 1>I was utterly dependent on air conditioning and I used

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<v Speaker 1>far too much of it

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<v Speaker 1>and now I use almost none of it, except when

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<v Speaker 1>I don't have a ceiling fan in her room. So

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<v Speaker 1>I think younger people

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<v Speaker 2>did you have to force yourself to do that or

0:12:01.980 --> 0:12:04.860
<v Speaker 1>it just happened naturally over time, partly,

0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:07.580
<v Speaker 1>but then partly, I also did force myself to do

0:12:07.580 --> 0:12:09.960
<v Speaker 1>that because I realized it wasn't just the price of

0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:11.720
<v Speaker 1>air conditioning. It was also the fact that I just

0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:13.949
<v Speaker 1>didn't think it was good for me. And now that

0:12:13.950 --> 0:12:16.050
<v Speaker 1>I've been doing this project, I realized it's not good

0:12:16.050 --> 0:12:16.849
<v Speaker 1>for anybody

0:12:17.340 --> 0:12:19.800
<v Speaker 1>for younger people, even though I'm not a younger person,

0:12:19.809 --> 0:12:23.540
<v Speaker 1>I think younger people need to wean themselves off very

0:12:23.540 --> 0:12:26.480
<v Speaker 1>cold indoor temperatures. That's the other thing that struck me

0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.410
<v Speaker 1>when I first came here is how cold some indoor

0:12:29.410 --> 0:12:32.250
<v Speaker 1>temperatures could be and people have been

0:12:32.340 --> 0:12:35.870
<v Speaker 1>adjusting that over time but basically reserve strongest air conditioning

0:12:35.870 --> 0:12:38.330
<v Speaker 1>for elderly people who really need it for health reasons

0:12:38.330 --> 0:12:41.559
<v Speaker 1>and younger people should really try to acclimatize themselves back

0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.660
<v Speaker 1>to ceiling fans and away from artificial thermal.

0:12:44.940 --> 0:12:47.800
<v Speaker 2>We often tend to forget those who work in outdoor

0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:52.429
<v Speaker 2>settings such as those engaged in agriculture or in construction sites.

0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.440
<v Speaker 2>How significant is the impact of heat, stress and labor

0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:01.040
<v Speaker 2>productivity or decent working conditions and what should employers do

0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:04.290
<v Speaker 2>to ensure the well being of their staff in such instances?

0:13:04.540 --> 0:13:06.990
<v Speaker 1>Well, this is a huge problem. As you say, construction

0:13:06.990 --> 0:13:09.620
<v Speaker 1>workers in agriculture where they can't help but work outside

0:13:09.630 --> 0:13:13.050
<v Speaker 1>and I guess shading and lots of water and clothing

0:13:13.050 --> 0:13:15.190
<v Speaker 1>which is not going to harm them being to have

0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.569
<v Speaker 1>the same sorts of things that armies around the world

0:13:17.580 --> 0:13:20.460
<v Speaker 1>are worrying about with their troops and are perfecting ways

0:13:20.460 --> 0:13:22.150
<v Speaker 1>to monitor and to protect people.

0:13:22.740 --> 0:13:26.270
<v Speaker 1>But it's not just a matter of doing things in Singapore, 90%

0:13:26.270 --> 0:13:29.260
<v Speaker 1>of our food is imported from abroad. Climate change is

0:13:29.260 --> 0:13:33.040
<v Speaker 1>also going to affect agriculture and agricultural workers and particularly

0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:37.350
<v Speaker 1>through droughts, it's going to affect prices and produce availability

0:13:37.350 --> 0:13:40.679
<v Speaker 1>of products in the future here. So even though there's

0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:42.770
<v Speaker 1>not a lot of agriculture in Singapore, I think we

0:13:42.770 --> 0:13:44.460
<v Speaker 1>have to be as concerned about

0:13:44.940 --> 0:13:48.430
<v Speaker 1>the protection of agriculture and agricultural workers in the region

0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:51.920
<v Speaker 1>as any city does because we're totally dependent on imported food.

0:13:51.929 --> 0:13:56.560
<v Speaker 2>We're also seeing unbearably hot temperatures already testing the limits

0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:00.750
<v Speaker 2>of human survival with rising heat related deaths and illnesses

0:14:00.750 --> 0:14:01.560
<v Speaker 2>around the world.

0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:05.179
<v Speaker 2>I also read reports that heat waves affecting early pregnancy

0:14:05.179 --> 0:14:08.240
<v Speaker 2>causing still births as well. Professor, just how much heat

0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.359
<v Speaker 2>and humidity can a human body withstand how hot

0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:12.250
<v Speaker 2>it's too hard.

0:14:12.300 --> 0:14:15.660
<v Speaker 1>It's hard to say because again it depends on your age.

0:14:15.670 --> 0:14:17.970
<v Speaker 1>It also depends on this is another thing that we found,

0:14:17.980 --> 0:14:20.460
<v Speaker 1>which is a very controversial and very difficult to

0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:24.800
<v Speaker 1>figure out. But people acclimatize different ways in different cultures

0:14:24.810 --> 0:14:27.510
<v Speaker 1>and it partly depends on whether you've grown up in

0:14:27.510 --> 0:14:30.200
<v Speaker 1>a particular hot place. As I said, I didn't, so

0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:32.550
<v Speaker 1>it took me a long time to acclimatize. Scientists have

0:14:32.550 --> 0:14:34.670
<v Speaker 1>been trying to answer the question, you just asked a

0:14:34.670 --> 0:14:36.570
<v Speaker 1>particular global standard

0:14:37.540 --> 0:14:39.850
<v Speaker 1>and it's been not possible to do that

0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:44.260
<v Speaker 1>because people in particularly hot places do adapt

0:14:44.820 --> 0:14:47.650
<v Speaker 1>over time. Not everybody there's illness but

0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:49.900
<v Speaker 1>they adapt in different ways.

0:14:50.460 --> 0:14:53.960
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting in the Northern Hemisphere now they're experiencing

0:14:54.620 --> 0:14:57.720
<v Speaker 1>far greater shifts than we are here in Singapore. Places

0:14:57.720 --> 0:14:59.660
<v Speaker 1>like Tokyo paris, New york,

0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:03.760
<v Speaker 1>heat waves are becoming more frequent and they're becoming more

0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:07.310
<v Speaker 1>noticeable to those populations than the gradual rise in. Heat

0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:10.650
<v Speaker 1>is noticeable to our population. And so there's actually more

0:15:10.650 --> 0:15:15.170
<v Speaker 1>deaths from heat related causes in the northern cities than

0:15:15.170 --> 0:15:16.160
<v Speaker 1>there are here

0:15:16.540 --> 0:15:19.060
<v Speaker 1>on the equator because they're not used to it

0:15:19.740 --> 0:15:22.920
<v Speaker 1>And they haven't, their infrastructure is not prepared for. In fact,

0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:26.240
<v Speaker 1>the word heatwave we know was invented in the 1890s

0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:28.970
<v Speaker 1>because of the heat wave in New York before that

0:15:28.980 --> 0:15:32.979
<v Speaker 1>people didn't talk about heat waves, heat was invisible and

0:15:32.990 --> 0:15:36.150
<v Speaker 1>making it a wave made it more visible, like a tsunami.

0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:39.530
<v Speaker 1>And now people in the Northern Hemisphere and cities like

0:15:39.530 --> 0:15:42.150
<v Speaker 1>Tokyo and new york and paris are talking about heat

0:15:42.150 --> 0:15:44.950
<v Speaker 1>waves all the time. We're still not talking about them

0:15:44.950 --> 0:15:48.820
<v Speaker 1>here because they don't strike us as tsunami. Like things

0:15:48.830 --> 0:15:53.380
<v Speaker 1>that occur just in certain periods. It's more stealth here,

0:15:53.380 --> 0:15:54.460
<v Speaker 1>but it's still happening

0:15:54.940 --> 0:15:57.390
<v Speaker 2>for us here in Singapore. As you mentioned a number

0:15:57.390 --> 0:16:01.270
<v Speaker 2>of times, air conditioning is extremely pervasive. So rather than

0:16:01.270 --> 0:16:05.980
<v Speaker 2>hiding in air conditioned buildings which instantly hot air outside,

0:16:05.980 --> 0:16:08.690
<v Speaker 2>what do we need to do to live better adapt

0:16:08.690 --> 0:16:11.560
<v Speaker 2>to hotter temperatures in a more sustainable way.

0:16:11.940 --> 0:16:16.229
<v Speaker 1>There's one interesting development is people are experimenting with misting,

0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.400
<v Speaker 1>you talk about outdoors, you see that a little bit

0:16:19.410 --> 0:16:22.710
<v Speaker 1>around Singapore now, but it's a global new technology of

0:16:22.710 --> 0:16:25.740
<v Speaker 1>basically missed very select outdoor areas to make them more

0:16:25.740 --> 0:16:29.660
<v Speaker 1>comfortable rather than using outdoor air conditioning, which is a

0:16:29.660 --> 0:16:31.860
<v Speaker 1>terrible idea given how much

0:16:32.140 --> 0:16:33.720
<v Speaker 1>energy air conditioning uses.

0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:37.210
<v Speaker 1>This basically goes back to a very old and habitual

0:16:37.210 --> 0:16:40.760
<v Speaker 1>practice in India putting water on walls which will then

0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:44.170
<v Speaker 1>slowly evaporate and make things more comfortable. Of course it

0:16:44.180 --> 0:16:48.020
<v Speaker 1>intensively uses water which is also a concern because we

0:16:48.020 --> 0:16:49.970
<v Speaker 1>have a finite amount of it here in Singapore.

0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:53.470
<v Speaker 1>If droughts become more common then that's not a long

0:16:53.470 --> 0:16:56.210
<v Speaker 1>term solution but it's an interesting new technology which I

0:16:56.210 --> 0:16:57.600
<v Speaker 1>think we'll see more and more of

0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:00.520
<v Speaker 1>because people are not going to abandon outdoor living. They're

0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:03.030
<v Speaker 1>not going to not want to sit outside at a

0:17:03.030 --> 0:17:06.260
<v Speaker 1>restaurant for example, so you will get used to more

0:17:06.260 --> 0:17:09.480
<v Speaker 1>and more probably missing technologies in the future, but on

0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:11.959
<v Speaker 1>the other hand, we might also indeed retreat more and

0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.600
<v Speaker 1>more inside over time, over the long term. That just

0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:16.670
<v Speaker 1>may be inevitable

0:17:16.740 --> 0:17:19.130
<v Speaker 2>before we let you go, Professor, what do you make

0:17:19.130 --> 0:17:20.360
<v Speaker 2>of the current attention

0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.399
<v Speaker 2>placed on climate change and the movements this has spawned?

0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.930
<v Speaker 2>How would you place this in a historical perspective? And

0:17:26.930 --> 0:17:30.100
<v Speaker 2>what can history tell us about where we're headed as

0:17:30.100 --> 0:17:31.450
<v Speaker 2>a planet in this respect?

0:17:31.540 --> 0:17:34.010
<v Speaker 1>Well, I guess the most optimistic thing you can say

0:17:34.010 --> 0:17:37.250
<v Speaker 1>is that in the past we have avoided other global crises.

0:17:37.260 --> 0:17:40.960
<v Speaker 1>Common sense has prevailed. We've not destroyed ourselves with nuclear weapons,

0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:43.050
<v Speaker 1>which we thought we might do in the 1950s and

0:17:43.050 --> 0:17:43.659
<v Speaker 1>60's

0:17:44.020 --> 0:17:47.320
<v Speaker 1>overpopulation has been controlled when I was a child, there

0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.010
<v Speaker 1>was talk about mass starvation because we run out of food.

0:17:50.010 --> 0:17:50.970
<v Speaker 1>That hasn't happened.

0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:54.159
<v Speaker 1>In other words, we've used technology and common sense and

0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.990
<v Speaker 1>diplomacy in the past. We thought that the hole in

0:17:56.990 --> 0:17:59.949
<v Speaker 1>the ozone layer was going to continue to expand indefinitely.

0:17:59.960 --> 0:18:02.609
<v Speaker 1>The Montreal protocols put an end to the use of

0:18:02.609 --> 0:18:06.459
<v Speaker 1>freon and we don't talk about the ozone layer anymore.

0:18:06.470 --> 0:18:09.610
<v Speaker 1>I guess I'm being optimistic in the sense that we

0:18:09.609 --> 0:18:12.670
<v Speaker 1>should use these past victories over

0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:14.270
<v Speaker 1>global problems

0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:16.200
<v Speaker 1>to inspire us

0:18:16.740 --> 0:18:20.760
<v Speaker 1>to redouble our efforts to deal with the current global problem,

0:18:21.340 --> 0:18:24.310
<v Speaker 1>which affects everybody everywhere

0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:29.020
<v Speaker 1>and everybody and everywhere. Should constantly thinking about what not

0:18:29.020 --> 0:18:31.150
<v Speaker 1>only what governments can do, but what they can do.

0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.290
<v Speaker 2>All right. So on that optimistic note that will have

0:18:33.290 --> 0:18:35.160
<v Speaker 2>to end our conversation there. But thank you so much

0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:37.040
<v Speaker 2>for joining us. Really appreciate your time.

0:18:37.050 --> 0:18:38.040
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for asking.

0:18:38.050 --> 0:18:42.560
<v Speaker 2>Well we hope you enjoyed this episode of the climate conversations.

0:18:42.740 --> 0:18:46.179
<v Speaker 2>So what gets measured gets managed now, this is the

0:18:46.180 --> 0:18:50.080
<v Speaker 2>belief underlying the business of my guest next week. Find

0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:53.440
<v Speaker 2>out how a climate tech startup wants to offer companies

0:18:53.450 --> 0:18:56.750
<v Speaker 2>a fast and painless way to track and reduce their

0:18:56.750 --> 0:19:01.130
<v Speaker 2>carbon emissions. The team behind this podcast is Audrey want,

0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:05.979
<v Speaker 2>Jacqueline chan, Danieli and Christina robert. You've gotta refresh slate

0:19:05.980 --> 0:19:08.909
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0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.950
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0:19:11.950 --> 0:19:15.020
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0:19:21.390 --> 0:19:24.990
<v Speaker 2>The details are in our episode notes. Until next time.

0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:25.669
<v Speaker 2>This is julie,

0:19:25.670 --> 0:19:30.350
<v Speaker 1>you