1 00:00:01,500 --> 00:00:03,270 Todd Bishop: Check, check, check, check. Okay, perfect. 2 00:00:03,420 --> 00:00:05,610 John Cook: All right. We're going to make this a one take wonder. 3 00:00:05,790 --> 00:00:06,390 Todd Bishop: One take wonder. 4 00:00:06,390 --> 00:00:06,689 John Cook: That's the goal. 5 00:00:06,750 --> 00:00:08,731 Todd Bishop: Zero edits. Zero edits this week. 6 00:00:08,731 --> 00:00:08,732 John Cook: Zero edits. 7 00:00:08,732 --> 00:00:08,732 Todd Bishop: Wait- 8 00:00:08,732 --> 00:00:10,591 John Cook: That's the goal. 9 00:00:10,591 --> 00:00:13,559 Todd Bishop: ... is this the real John or is this robot 10 00:00:13,559 --> 00:00:15,659 Todd Bishop: John? Because I think robot John could probably do this 11 00:00:15,660 --> 00:00:16,440 Todd Bishop: in one take. 12 00:00:16,559 --> 00:00:20,189 John Cook: Yes, robot John could do this in one take. 13 00:00:22,230 --> 00:00:24,869 Todd Bishop: Its so weird because the problem now is people are 14 00:00:24,870 --> 00:00:27,179 Todd Bishop: going to be like, " Wait, is that really him or 15 00:00:27,179 --> 00:00:34,918 Todd Bishop: is it the robot?" Hi, and welcome to GeekWire. I'm 16 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:36,569 Todd Bishop: GeekWire co- founder, Todd Bishop. 17 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:38,400 John Cook: And I'm GeekWire co- founder John Cook. 18 00:00:38,850 --> 00:00:40,680 Todd Bishop: John, we got a lot to talk about today. And this 19 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,589 Todd Bishop: week I'm in California, and I can share with you 20 00:00:43,590 --> 00:00:45,719 Todd Bishop: some of the details from Google I/ O, which I 21 00:00:45,719 --> 00:00:48,330 Todd Bishop: got to attend for the first time this week, and 22 00:00:48,450 --> 00:00:50,880 Todd Bishop: I was also at Expedia, and lots of interesting news 23 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,309 Todd Bishop: to cover. But I feel like we need to start 24 00:00:53,340 --> 00:00:57,330 Todd Bishop: with where we ended last week, which was this experiment 25 00:00:57,330 --> 00:01:00,510 Todd Bishop: we did where we had these voice clones of you 26 00:01:00,510 --> 00:01:06,059 Todd Bishop: and me read this AI generated script. The reaction that 27 00:01:06,059 --> 00:01:09,660 Todd Bishop: we got to that was fascinating. And one of the 28 00:01:09,660 --> 00:01:12,479 Todd Bishop: people who reacted was your brother? Who- 29 00:01:12,510 --> 00:01:13,619 John Cook: Well, both brothers- 30 00:01:13,709 --> 00:01:14,041 Todd Bishop: Both brothers. 31 00:01:14,041 --> 00:01:18,990 John Cook: ... actually, I haven't shared the other brother's comments. Yeah, 32 00:01:18,990 --> 00:01:19,002 John Cook: what (inaudible) - 33 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,770 Todd Bishop: So Dave and Dan both reacted, and these are two 34 00:01:22,770 --> 00:01:25,440 Todd Bishop: people who know you better than anybody, better than me, 35 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,519 Todd Bishop: frankly. What did they think of the voice clone of 36 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:30,269 Todd Bishop: John Cook? 37 00:01:30,510 --> 00:01:33,750 John Cook: Well, I think they thought it was pretty close. My 38 00:01:33,750 --> 00:01:38,160 John Cook: brother Dave texted and said, " Listened to your AI podcast. 39 00:01:38,490 --> 00:01:43,380 John Cook: Crazy, amazing, scary, exciting, all rolled into one. 40 00:01:43,530 --> 00:01:47,879 Todd Bishop: Wow. That is the embodiment of the era that we're 41 00:01:47,879 --> 00:01:52,080 Todd Bishop: in right now. What did he say? " Crazy, amazing, exciting, 42 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,910 Todd Bishop: and scary all rolled into one." 43 00:01:54,660 --> 00:01:56,849 John Cook: Yes. Yes. That was it. So.. 44 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,011 Todd Bishop: Completely. Yeah, and- 45 00:01:59,011 --> 00:02:00,540 John Cook: It is all those things, right? 46 00:02:00,570 --> 00:02:03,270 Todd Bishop: It is. It's totally all those things. And I got 47 00:02:03,270 --> 00:02:07,260 Todd Bishop: a lot of feedback from listeners and readers. Some people 48 00:02:07,260 --> 00:02:10,080 Todd Bishop: just did not understand, initially, I didn't set it up 49 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,500 Todd Bishop: well enough to make it clear that it was robots 50 00:02:13,590 --> 00:02:16,979 Todd Bishop: that we're reading. But the thing that is fascinating to 51 00:02:16,980 --> 00:02:19,799 Todd Bishop: a lot of people is the fact that it's not 52 00:02:19,799 --> 00:02:23,820 Todd Bishop: just our voice clones. And again, yours was much better 53 00:02:23,820 --> 00:02:27,090 Todd Bishop: as a clone than mine was, but it's also the 54 00:02:27,090 --> 00:02:29,370 Todd Bishop: fact that it was an AI generated script. I know 55 00:02:29,370 --> 00:02:31,500 Todd Bishop: a lot of journalists have been doing the voice clones 56 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:33,929 Todd Bishop: and testing it, but the fact that we took it 57 00:02:33,929 --> 00:02:36,149 Todd Bishop: one step further I think was very interesting to a 58 00:02:36,150 --> 00:02:38,638 Todd Bishop: lot of people. So if you haven't heard that episode, 59 00:02:38,730 --> 00:02:41,939 Todd Bishop: I'd very much recommend going back and doing it. I 60 00:02:41,940 --> 00:02:45,270 Todd Bishop: think that there's some potential there to do something interesting 61 00:02:45,270 --> 00:02:49,230 Todd Bishop: in a transparent way long term, in terms of using 62 00:02:49,230 --> 00:02:53,880 Todd Bishop: AI end- to- end. And I just keep thinking what 63 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,429 Todd Bishop: happens to human creativity in all this? Where can we 64 00:02:56,429 --> 00:02:58,650 Todd Bishop: add value? I don't know the answers to any of 65 00:02:58,650 --> 00:03:01,440 Todd Bishop: this, but I think we've got to be trying things 66 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,470 Todd Bishop: like this. I think that's the key right now. And 67 00:03:04,470 --> 00:03:07,410 Todd Bishop: frankly, that's a lot of what I saw at Google I/ 68 00:03:07,410 --> 00:03:11,250 Todd Bishop: O. This is Google's developer conference. It's down in Mountain 69 00:03:11,250 --> 00:03:14,730 Todd Bishop: View, California every year, and they're back in person now 70 00:03:14,730 --> 00:03:18,149 Todd Bishop: at Shoreline Amphitheater. Which John is funny, I was thinking, 71 00:03:18,719 --> 00:03:22,019 Todd Bishop: my brother took me to some Grateful Dead concerts at Shoreline 72 00:03:22,020 --> 00:03:23,340 Todd Bishop: Amphitheater back in the day. 73 00:03:23,340 --> 00:03:26,430 John Cook: Oh. So it took you back to your roots, huh? 74 00:03:26,430 --> 00:03:29,910 Todd Bishop: I was chatting with Ina Fried from Axios right before 75 00:03:29,910 --> 00:03:31,799 Todd Bishop: it started, and I said, " Yeah, I think this is 76 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,739 Todd Bishop: sort of the first time I've been completely sober inside 77 00:03:34,739 --> 00:03:38,970 Todd Bishop: Shoreline." And she said, Ina's point was, " You really don't 78 00:03:38,970 --> 00:03:41,400 Todd Bishop: need anything mind- altering for a concert. You can have 79 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,770 Todd Bishop: fun at a concert. Where you would probably need the 80 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,980 Todd Bishop: substances like that would be for a Google event. It 81 00:03:46,980 --> 00:03:48,960 Todd Bishop: would be much more interesting to be at a Google 82 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:50,850 Todd Bishop: event, to be in that state of mind." 83 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,239 John Cook: Well, not to sidetrack, but who was the DJ/ musician 84 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,610 John Cook: they had on stage with the duck out there? I 85 00:03:56,610 --> 00:03:57,031 John Cook: mean, it did get- 86 00:03:57,031 --> 00:03:57,032 Todd Bishop: Oh my God. 87 00:03:57,032 --> 00:04:00,510 John Cook: ... a little surreal, right? Like you were on some 88 00:04:00,510 --> 00:04:01,800 John Cook: sort of LSD trip. 89 00:04:02,010 --> 00:04:04,320 Todd Bishop: He was amazing. That was Dan Deacon. He was a 90 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,349 Todd Bishop: composer and a musician. I loved him. I want to 91 00:04:07,349 --> 00:04:09,900 Todd Bishop: see one of his concerts. He came out and was 92 00:04:09,900 --> 00:04:11,849 Todd Bishop: sort of the pre- show entertainment, and I got to 93 00:04:11,850 --> 00:04:15,780 Todd Bishop: say, I've been to AWS re: Invent and Microsoft Build 94 00:04:15,810 --> 00:04:18,900 Todd Bishop: and all these conferences tend to have the musical entertainment 95 00:04:18,900 --> 00:04:22,529 Todd Bishop: to warm you up. This was by far the best. 96 00:04:22,559 --> 00:04:26,160 Todd Bishop: He led the group through a guided meditation. He had 97 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,889 Todd Bishop: his AI generated songs that he had worked on the 98 00:04:28,889 --> 00:04:32,310 Todd Bishop: Google team with in advance, and it was just, you 99 00:04:32,310 --> 00:04:33,750 Todd Bishop: kind of had to see it. I'll link to the 100 00:04:33,750 --> 00:04:37,710 Todd Bishop: video from the show notes, but I loved his approach. 101 00:04:37,890 --> 00:04:40,259 Todd Bishop: Dan Deacon was his name, and I thought he was 102 00:04:40,260 --> 00:04:43,200 Todd Bishop: fantastic. And I think he deserves his own show. 103 00:04:44,428 --> 00:04:46,949 John Cook: Okay, well, that was a side note. 104 00:04:47,399 --> 00:04:47,488 Todd Bishop: Yes. 105 00:04:47,549 --> 00:04:50,010 John Cook: What was the main news coming out of Google I/ 106 00:04:50,010 --> 00:04:52,109 John Cook: O? What did you learn? What did you see that 107 00:04:52,110 --> 00:04:52,800 John Cook: was interesting? 108 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,248 Todd Bishop: So it was AI, AI, AI. It was fascinating. A 109 00:04:56,250 --> 00:05:00,089 Todd Bishop: lot of the preview posts that different sites did focused 110 00:05:00,089 --> 00:05:03,509 Todd Bishop: a lot on Pixel, Pixel phone and hardware, which is 111 00:05:03,509 --> 00:05:07,110 Todd Bishop: kind of at this point, the old paradigm. Google came 112 00:05:07,110 --> 00:05:09,779 Todd Bishop: out and yes, they eventually got to the phones and 113 00:05:09,779 --> 00:05:12,990 Todd Bishop: their Pixel Fold and their new Pixel tablet that docks 114 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,620 Todd Bishop: with Smart Dock that is basically going to rival the 115 00:05:16,620 --> 00:05:22,050 Todd Bishop: Echo Show. But for 80 solid minutes at the beginning, 116 00:05:22,260 --> 00:05:25,950 Todd Bishop: Google CEO, Sundar Pichai, and all of the other executives 117 00:05:26,070 --> 00:05:31,320 Todd Bishop: focused 100% on artificial intelligence. They showed a variety of 118 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:36,270 Todd Bishop: new generative AI features for Google Search. They showed some 119 00:05:36,270 --> 00:05:41,159 Todd Bishop: new features in Bard, which is the ChatGPT alternative. But 120 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,940 Todd Bishop: to me, the most fascinating project that I saw was 121 00:05:44,940 --> 00:05:49,738 Todd Bishop: something called Project Tailwind. It wasn't even one of the 122 00:05:49,740 --> 00:05:53,190 Todd Bishop: main announcements that they were planning there, John, but to 123 00:05:53,190 --> 00:05:58,859 Todd Bishop: me, it embodied, it illustrated everything that AI could be 124 00:05:58,859 --> 00:06:02,640 Todd Bishop: in just a small little project. And I'm going to 125 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,710 Todd Bishop: make that a teaser, because we're going to take our 126 00:06:04,710 --> 00:06:07,080 Todd Bishop: first break right here. We're going to talk about that 127 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,020 Todd Bishop: when we come back. You're listening to GeekWire, and we 128 00:06:10,020 --> 00:06:16,529 Todd Bishop: will be right back. Welcome back. It's Todd Bishop with 129 00:06:16,529 --> 00:06:19,140 Todd Bishop: John Cook. I'm sharing some of the details this week 130 00:06:19,140 --> 00:06:21,599 Todd Bishop: from a couple of the conferences that I've been at, 131 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,960 Todd Bishop: and one of them was Google I/ O in California. 132 00:06:24,990 --> 00:06:28,560 Todd Bishop: I was just talking about Project Tailwind. John, this is 133 00:06:28,620 --> 00:06:33,630 Todd Bishop: just a side project essentially that five Google engineers put 134 00:06:33,630 --> 00:06:36,420 Todd Bishop: together, it sounds like in their spare time. 135 00:06:36,750 --> 00:06:40,110 John Cook: Well, Google still has the program that allows engineers to 136 00:06:40,110 --> 00:06:43,680 John Cook: go off and spend a percentage of their time working 137 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:48,001 John Cook: on crazy outlandish offbeat ideas. Is that where this (inaudible) - 138 00:06:48,001 --> 00:06:48,002 Todd Bishop: I assume they do. 139 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:49,859 John Cook: Are they still doing that? 140 00:06:49,860 --> 00:06:51,630 Todd Bishop: I don't know. It's an interesting question. 141 00:06:51,631 --> 00:06:52,890 John Cook: It's part of their culture. 142 00:06:52,980 --> 00:06:55,260 Todd Bishop: It is definitely baked into their culture. I don't know 143 00:06:55,260 --> 00:06:57,178 Todd Bishop: if this resulted from that. I don't know if they 144 00:06:57,180 --> 00:07:01,140 Todd Bishop: still have it, but what Project Tailwind does is it 145 00:07:01,140 --> 00:07:06,839 Todd Bishop: takes your own notes, your own reference materials, articles that 146 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:11,309 Todd Bishop: you might want this data set to include. In my 147 00:07:11,309 --> 00:07:13,620 Todd Bishop: vision for how I would use it, I would include 148 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:17,940 Todd Bishop: interview transcripts, just as another example. It allows you to 149 00:07:17,940 --> 00:07:21,929 Todd Bishop: query that artificial intelligence model that's essentially been created on 150 00:07:21,929 --> 00:07:25,859 Todd Bishop: the fly. So they pitched this as something for students, 151 00:07:25,860 --> 00:07:29,190 Todd Bishop: for example, where you could put in your notes and 152 00:07:29,190 --> 00:07:32,610 Todd Bishop: your reading materials and the assignments from the professor, and 153 00:07:32,610 --> 00:07:34,950 Todd Bishop: then from there you could say, " Hey, create a summary, 154 00:07:34,950 --> 00:07:38,460 Todd Bishop: create a glossary, make this something that I can use 155 00:07:38,639 --> 00:07:42,809 Todd Bishop: as a study aid." But for me, from a journalist's 156 00:07:42,809 --> 00:07:47,849 Todd Bishop: perspective, this is the Holy Grail. I could take my 157 00:07:47,850 --> 00:07:52,140 Todd Bishop: notes, the five background stories that I want the large 158 00:07:52,140 --> 00:07:55,920 Todd Bishop: language model to take into account. I could take the 159 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,949 Todd Bishop: latest interview that I did. I could write a one 160 00:07:58,950 --> 00:08:02,280 Todd Bishop: paragraph lead and a headline, and I could say, " Please 161 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,549 Todd Bishop: summarize the rest of these materials with context from all 162 00:08:05,549 --> 00:08:08,610 Todd Bishop: of the information that I've just given you and only 163 00:08:09,060 --> 00:08:11,550 Todd Bishop: the information that I've just given you." And that to 164 00:08:11,550 --> 00:08:14,518 Todd Bishop: me is the key. I've actually talked to people at 165 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,609 Todd Bishop: Microsoft in the past about how I could create something 166 00:08:17,610 --> 00:08:21,059 Todd Bishop: like this using some of the OpenAI frameworks that they 167 00:08:21,059 --> 00:08:23,789 Todd Bishop: had access to last year. I was thinking along these 168 00:08:23,789 --> 00:08:27,510 Todd Bishop: lines from a journalism perspective. And this to me is the 169 00:08:27,510 --> 00:08:31,320 Todd Bishop: fascinating part about this era of AI. This might not 170 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,120 Todd Bishop: light you up in the way it lights me up. 171 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,789 Todd Bishop: It might not make folks in our audience go, " Oh 172 00:08:35,790 --> 00:08:38,699 Todd Bishop: yes, that's the killer app of AI," but we're seeing 173 00:08:38,700 --> 00:08:45,000 Todd Bishop: this level of experimentation and trial that I think is 174 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:50,218 Todd Bishop: going to lead to some fascinating breakthroughs, some real meaningful 175 00:08:50,309 --> 00:08:53,639 Todd Bishop: breakthroughs in the future in terms of our own personal 176 00:08:53,639 --> 00:08:57,119 Todd Bishop: productivity and the ways that AI can assist us. 177 00:08:57,750 --> 00:09:00,990 John Cook: So could you use Project Tailwind right now and use 178 00:09:01,020 --> 00:09:02,880 John Cook: it to help create a story? 179 00:09:03,420 --> 00:09:06,030 Todd Bishop: Yes, if I could get access to it, that is 180 00:09:06,030 --> 00:09:09,240 Todd Bishop: one challenge. Right now, there's a wait list to get 181 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,809 Todd Bishop: access. I tried to connect with the Project Tailwind people 182 00:09:12,809 --> 00:09:16,350 Todd Bishop: when I was down there. I asked to talk to 183 00:09:16,350 --> 00:09:19,110 Todd Bishop: the folks who were behind it. I didn't have any 184 00:09:19,110 --> 00:09:21,300 Todd Bishop: luck, but I'm hoping- 185 00:09:21,301 --> 00:09:25,199 John Cook: Well, maybe this is your plea to Google PR right here to- 186 00:09:25,199 --> 00:09:25,261 Todd Bishop: I guess. 187 00:09:25,261 --> 00:09:27,091 John Cook: ... get you to the top of the line. 188 00:09:27,091 --> 00:09:31,380 Todd Bishop: ... it was five engineers. Wouldn't one of them listen 189 00:09:31,380 --> 00:09:34,559 Todd Bishop: to the GeekWire podcast? There's a big Google engineering center 190 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,990 Todd Bishop: in Fremont, just down the street from us in Seattle. 191 00:09:37,410 --> 00:09:39,150 Todd Bishop: I would hope that maybe somebody would listen and just, " 192 00:09:39,150 --> 00:09:41,250 Todd Bishop: Hey, get me up on that invite list." But I'm 193 00:09:41,250 --> 00:09:42,510 Todd Bishop: not asking for special treatment. 194 00:09:42,510 --> 00:09:44,790 John Cook: I'll walk down the street, Todd, and put a note 195 00:09:44,790 --> 00:09:47,219 John Cook: on their door to get you access. 196 00:09:47,219 --> 00:09:51,419 Todd Bishop: Project Tailwind, todd@ geekwire. com. Please get in touch. Yes. 197 00:09:51,780 --> 00:09:54,750 Todd Bishop: So that's the thing that got me excited the most, 198 00:09:54,750 --> 00:09:57,870 Todd Bishop: just in terms of my own personal use. To me, 199 00:09:57,870 --> 00:10:03,449 Todd Bishop: the idea of AI being that true assistant and doing 200 00:10:03,450 --> 00:10:05,759 Todd Bishop: some of that drudgery. Now, I want to be clear, 201 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,429 Todd Bishop: in my ideal world, I would still read all of 202 00:10:08,429 --> 00:10:10,500 Todd Bishop: those materials. I'm not asking the AI to do the 203 00:10:10,500 --> 00:10:13,380 Todd Bishop: work. I'm not asking the AI to do all of 204 00:10:13,380 --> 00:10:15,449 Todd Bishop: the heavy lifting. But wouldn't it be great to just 205 00:10:15,450 --> 00:10:17,760 Todd Bishop: be able to sit back and read and absorb and say, " 206 00:10:17,790 --> 00:10:20,790 Todd Bishop: Okay, summarize this now and do it in a way 207 00:10:20,790 --> 00:10:24,420 Todd Bishop: that I can adapt the material easily for a story 208 00:10:24,420 --> 00:10:25,020 Todd Bishop: that I'm writing?" 209 00:10:25,110 --> 00:10:27,389 John Cook: Well, it seems like the next step on that is 210 00:10:27,389 --> 00:10:30,570 John Cook: just writing the story then, right? And that's the worry, like, 211 00:10:30,809 --> 00:10:34,890 John Cook: gosh, if it can synthesize the information and put that 212 00:10:34,890 --> 00:10:37,708 John Cook: context around it, which is a big part of what 213 00:10:37,710 --> 00:10:40,889 John Cook: your job is as a reporter and journalist, then it 214 00:10:40,889 --> 00:10:45,960 John Cook: seems like, gosh, the writing of it is a second 215 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:47,730 John Cook: step that would naturally come out of that. 216 00:10:49,230 --> 00:10:53,640 Todd Bishop: Wow, that's such a downer, John. That's such a downer. I guess 217 00:10:54,090 --> 00:10:57,150 Todd Bishop: it's a matter of degrees and shades of gray. I 218 00:10:57,150 --> 00:11:02,100 Todd Bishop: hear what you're saying. I personally get so much fulfillment 219 00:11:02,130 --> 00:11:06,300 Todd Bishop: out of the process of learning and finishing a story 220 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,328 Todd Bishop: that I would help in the middle. I'd like help 221 00:11:09,330 --> 00:11:14,250 Todd Bishop: in that difficult middle part, the part between absorbing and 222 00:11:14,250 --> 00:11:18,509 Todd Bishop: the part between publishing. I'm not asking for a machine 223 00:11:18,509 --> 00:11:21,809 Todd Bishop: to do all of the work in between, but to 224 00:11:21,809 --> 00:11:23,518 Todd Bishop: the point of the name of the project, which I 225 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:25,498 Todd Bishop: think is apt, I'd like a little bit of a 226 00:11:25,499 --> 00:11:29,040 Todd Bishop: tailwind and a little bit of help. I get what 227 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,828 Todd Bishop: you're saying, and I agree that it could be a 228 00:11:31,830 --> 00:11:35,849 Todd Bishop: slippery slope, and especially in cases where people actually don't 229 00:11:35,849 --> 00:11:39,030 Todd Bishop: want to do any of the work, which I think is 230 00:11:39,150 --> 00:11:40,858 Todd Bishop: the case in a lot of situations. 231 00:11:41,789 --> 00:11:46,858 John Cook: Well, another product they talked about was right in line with 232 00:11:46,860 --> 00:11:50,309 John Cook: what we're discussing here right now, which was called Help 233 00:11:50,309 --> 00:11:50,970 John Cook: Me Write. 234 00:11:51,030 --> 00:11:51,059 Todd Bishop: Oh, yes. 235 00:11:51,570 --> 00:11:56,309 John Cook: So talk about that, which is essentially, it's a product 236 00:11:56,309 --> 00:12:00,810 John Cook: for Gmail that will craft an entire message for you 237 00:12:00,929 --> 00:12:03,840 John Cook: and make it in such a way that hopefully it's 238 00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:07,110 John Cook: more convincing to whomever you're writing to, so you can 239 00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:10,410 John Cook: get your point across or make a sale or get 240 00:12:10,410 --> 00:12:12,390 John Cook: your money back or whatever. 241 00:12:13,110 --> 00:12:13,111 Todd Bishop: I loved this. 242 00:12:13,111 --> 00:12:16,769 John Cook: So it really is crafting an entire email for you. 243 00:12:17,129 --> 00:12:20,400 Todd Bishop: So this was so mind- expanding in a lot of 244 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,790 Todd Bishop: different ways. This is a feature that's currently in testing 245 00:12:23,790 --> 00:12:26,189 Todd Bishop: for Google Workspace. So John, this will be available to 246 00:12:26,190 --> 00:12:30,990 Todd Bishop: us as Gmail and Google Workspace users eventually, actually pretty 247 00:12:30,990 --> 00:12:35,250 Todd Bishop: soon. And the example that they showed, as you just 248 00:12:35,250 --> 00:12:38,610 Todd Bishop: mentioned, was a customer service reply with a canceled flight. 249 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:44,610 Todd Bishop: Sundar Pichai showed this on stage, where it initially drafted 250 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,478 Todd Bishop: the request for a refund for the flight, and then 251 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:53,279 Todd Bishop: knowing that a more expansive plea might have a better 252 00:12:53,279 --> 00:12:57,240 Todd Bishop: chance of success, underscoring, for example, how long you've been 253 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,809 Todd Bishop: a customer, some of the details of the flight, which 254 00:13:00,809 --> 00:13:02,250 Todd Bishop: it pulls in automatically. 255 00:13:02,340 --> 00:13:03,450 John Cook: Your anger level. 256 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,140 Todd Bishop: Yes, yes. But- 257 00:13:07,140 --> 00:13:07,141 John Cook: "I'm mad as hell." 258 00:13:07,141 --> 00:13:10,348 Todd Bishop: ... in a reasoned, rational way that's likely to get 259 00:13:10,350 --> 00:13:13,920 Todd Bishop: a response. You can just hit expand and it does 260 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:15,988 Todd Bishop: that for you. It's funny, I was just trying to 261 00:13:15,990 --> 00:13:18,478 Todd Bishop: get a refund before we jumped on, John. My mom 262 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,599 Todd Bishop: got a real lemon of an iPhone, and I'm trying 263 00:13:21,599 --> 00:13:23,699 Todd Bishop: to get a refund from Verizon. So I'm on customer 264 00:13:23,700 --> 00:13:27,120 Todd Bishop: chat sitting there almost thinking like a robot based on 265 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,358 Todd Bishop: this example that I saw, and it worked. The person said, " 266 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,720 Todd Bishop: Okay, here's how you can get a $ 700 refund." It's like, " 267 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:35,700 Todd Bishop: Okay," even though I'm outside of the 30- day window. 268 00:13:36,210 --> 00:13:38,220 John Cook: You were probably communicating with a bot. 269 00:13:39,090 --> 00:13:40,468 Todd Bishop: They said it was real. 270 00:13:40,499 --> 00:13:44,190 John Cook: Okay, I'm just saying. That's where this gets interesting. 271 00:13:44,370 --> 00:13:44,460 Todd Bishop: Yes. 272 00:13:44,460 --> 00:13:45,751 John Cook: One bot against the other, right? 273 00:13:45,751 --> 00:13:46,139 Todd Bishop: Exactly. 274 00:13:46,139 --> 00:13:48,539 John Cook: And who's going to win the battle? 275 00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:51,750 Todd Bishop: Exactly. Because on the other hand, I'm sitting there thinking, 276 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:57,449 Todd Bishop: my main problem as the recipient of emails, not people 277 00:13:57,450 --> 00:14:01,499 Todd Bishop: asking for refunds necessarily, but just the recipient of emails 278 00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:04,708 Todd Bishop: in general is just being flooded with information. So if 279 00:14:04,708 --> 00:14:07,050 Todd Bishop: you think about this in the abstract, on the one 280 00:14:07,050 --> 00:14:10,170 Todd Bishop: hand, we're making it much easier for systems to just 281 00:14:10,230 --> 00:14:15,900 Todd Bishop: spam people with things that look like human text. And 282 00:14:15,900 --> 00:14:21,059 Todd Bishop: on the other hand, you've got people using email prioritization 283 00:14:21,059 --> 00:14:24,960 Todd Bishop: programs and different types of productivity tools to combat that. 284 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,869 Todd Bishop: So your point is very true, John. You're going to 285 00:14:27,870 --> 00:14:29,280 Todd Bishop: have a machine against a machine. 286 00:14:29,850 --> 00:14:34,290 John Cook: Yeah, it's like the cybersecurity wars- 287 00:14:34,349 --> 00:14:34,350 Todd Bishop: Yes. 288 00:14:34,350 --> 00:14:35,880 John Cook: ... in some ways. 289 00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:38,790 Todd Bishop: So that was really interesting. I got to say, I 290 00:14:38,790 --> 00:14:42,270 Todd Bishop: got into kind of feature request mode, which happens sometimes 291 00:14:42,270 --> 00:14:44,760 Todd Bishop: when I go in and talk to people who run 292 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,670 Todd Bishop: products that we use very heavily in our daily work 293 00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:50,040 Todd Bishop: at GeekWire. So I spoke with one of the top 294 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,000 Todd Bishop: executives on the Google Workspace team, and for part of 295 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,910 Todd Bishop: it just basically said, " Hey, here's what I want as 296 00:14:56,910 --> 00:14:59,640 Todd Bishop: a user." And they actually appreciate it, to a point. 297 00:15:00,180 --> 00:15:02,820 Todd Bishop: They do want to hear from a user. I got the 298 00:15:02,820 --> 00:15:04,650 Todd Bishop: sense, I might have gone a little bit overboard on 299 00:15:04,650 --> 00:15:07,500 Todd Bishop: it. But one of the things, John, great example, when 300 00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:11,159 Todd Bishop: we have a new employee start at GeekWire, it's about, 301 00:15:11,309 --> 00:15:16,559 Todd Bishop: oh, half hour, 45 minute process, sometimes more, setting that 302 00:15:16,559 --> 00:15:21,180 Todd Bishop: person up on email, setting them up in the different aliases 303 00:15:21,180 --> 00:15:23,820 Todd Bishop: that we want based on the job profile that we 304 00:15:23,820 --> 00:15:27,660 Todd Bishop: have. There is no reason that I shouldn't be able 305 00:15:27,660 --> 00:15:29,639 Todd Bishop: to go in and type a paragraph and say, we 306 00:15:29,639 --> 00:15:33,630 Todd Bishop: have a new employee named this. This person is reporting 307 00:15:33,630 --> 00:15:37,740 Todd Bishop: to this person. Please set this new employee up with 308 00:15:37,740 --> 00:15:41,520 Todd Bishop: the appropriate email address. Let them know. Just have it 309 00:15:42,450 --> 00:15:47,010 Todd Bishop: in a few basic natural language commands be done. And 310 00:15:47,340 --> 00:15:49,799 Todd Bishop: it's interesting when you watch the person's reaction on the 311 00:15:49,799 --> 00:15:53,279 Todd Bishop: other side, the Google Workspace VP, she kind of looked 312 00:15:53,279 --> 00:15:54,510 Todd Bishop: at me with a little bit of a gleam in 313 00:15:54,510 --> 00:15:56,790 Todd Bishop: her eye. You can tell that they're working on it. 314 00:15:56,850 --> 00:15:58,770 Todd Bishop: I mean, clearly they're working on it, even though she 315 00:15:58,770 --> 00:16:02,460 Todd Bishop: can't say, and it's a natural, logical thing to do. 316 00:16:02,460 --> 00:16:06,329 Todd Bishop: And it was frankly just one of the many feature 317 00:16:06,330 --> 00:16:09,899 Todd Bishop: requests that I have. Really, in terms of big picture 318 00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:14,010 Todd Bishop: stuff, what I want is a personal assistant to read 319 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:19,200 Todd Bishop: every single one of my messages, all of the social 320 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,559 Todd Bishop: media, inbound, direct messages. I don't want to have to go to LinkedIn, 321 00:16:22,620 --> 00:16:25,889 Todd Bishop: Twitter, Facebook, whatever. I want to be able to go 322 00:16:25,889 --> 00:16:29,039 Todd Bishop: to one interface and have it be like I'm walking 323 00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:32,550 Todd Bishop: into the office in the morning. " Mr. Bishop, here are 324 00:16:32,550 --> 00:16:36,180 Todd Bishop: your messages." The person who would hand me all those post- 325 00:16:36,180 --> 00:16:38,370 Todd Bishop: it notes and say, " Here's what you need to do 326 00:16:38,429 --> 00:16:39,840 Todd Bishop: the first 10 minutes of your day." 327 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,389 John Cook: Who was the person, was it Trump? It was a 328 00:16:42,389 --> 00:16:46,710 John Cook: former president or somebody who used to have emails- 329 00:16:47,490 --> 00:16:48,120 Todd Bishop: Printed out. 330 00:16:48,299 --> 00:16:49,470 John Cook: Printed out for them. 331 00:16:49,710 --> 00:16:50,580 Todd Bishop: I think it might have been. 332 00:16:50,850 --> 00:16:51,871 John Cook: So that's what you want, somebody- 333 00:16:51,871 --> 00:16:51,872 Todd Bishop: No. 334 00:16:51,872 --> 00:16:55,560 John Cook: ... who does the equivalent of that. 335 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,309 Todd Bishop: I want the AI virtual equivalent of that. And frankly, 336 00:16:59,309 --> 00:17:01,830 Todd Bishop: would be more than 10 minutes. It would probably be 337 00:17:01,830 --> 00:17:04,619 Todd Bishop: the first hour, but it would save so much time. 338 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,440 Todd Bishop: And there are ingredients of that right now, and I 339 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,020 Todd Bishop: wrote a little bit about that in my post about 340 00:17:10,020 --> 00:17:12,510 Todd Bishop: Google I/ O. We're seeing ingredients of that right now, 341 00:17:12,510 --> 00:17:15,359 Todd Bishop: but nobody's really come up with that overarching AI killer 342 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,300 Todd Bishop: app. And it's just so obvious that it needs to 343 00:17:18,300 --> 00:17:20,430 Todd Bishop: be done, and I hope somebody ends up doing it. 344 00:17:20,670 --> 00:17:23,369 Todd Bishop: So that was Google I/ O. I will link from 345 00:17:23,369 --> 00:17:27,300 Todd Bishop: the show notes to my coverage from there. Definitely recommend 346 00:17:27,330 --> 00:17:30,090 Todd Bishop: checking out what they announced there. And in just a 347 00:17:30,090 --> 00:17:32,790 Todd Bishop: couple weeks now, John, we've got Microsoft Build coming up. 348 00:17:33,090 --> 00:17:37,410 Todd Bishop: It is developer conference season, and something actually happened this 349 00:17:37,410 --> 00:17:41,309 Todd Bishop: week as I was planning for Microsoft Build that plays 350 00:17:41,309 --> 00:17:45,359 Todd Bishop: into a larger trend that I wanted to share in 351 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:50,400 Todd Bishop: terms of the balance of power between tech, media, and 352 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,010 Todd Bishop: everybody else. We're going to talk about that when we 353 00:17:53,010 --> 00:18:00,780 Todd Bishop: come back. You're listening to GeekWire. Welcome back. It's Todd 354 00:18:00,780 --> 00:18:03,658 Todd Bishop: Bishop with John Cook. You can tell I've been energized 355 00:18:03,660 --> 00:18:05,970 Todd Bishop: this week. I'm on a trip to California. I got 356 00:18:05,970 --> 00:18:07,980 Todd Bishop: to go to Google I/ O. Earlier in the week 357 00:18:07,980 --> 00:18:11,130 Todd Bishop: I was at Expedia EXPLORE. I got to listen to 358 00:18:11,429 --> 00:18:15,570 Todd Bishop: Barry Diller and other Expedia executives talk about their plans 359 00:18:15,570 --> 00:18:18,930 Todd Bishop: for AI and other aspects of travel. And then looking 360 00:18:18,959 --> 00:18:22,109 Todd Bishop: ahead, John, in a couple weeks, Microsoft Build is coming 361 00:18:22,109 --> 00:18:25,410 Todd Bishop: up. This is Microsoft's big developer conference that they do 362 00:18:25,410 --> 00:18:29,340 Todd Bishop: every year. They are back in- person on a limited 363 00:18:29,340 --> 00:18:33,900 Todd Bishop: basis, at least, with some developers in Seattle attending this 364 00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:37,198 Todd Bishop: conference. It's a hybrid conference. It'll be online, but it's 365 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:38,940 Todd Bishop: in our neck of the woods. It's in Seattle, right 366 00:18:38,940 --> 00:18:42,780 Todd Bishop: downtown in the new convention center, the expanded Seattle Convention 367 00:18:42,780 --> 00:18:44,849 Todd Bishop: Center, which I haven't really been in yet. I'd love 368 00:18:44,849 --> 00:18:45,450 Todd Bishop: to experience. 369 00:18:45,450 --> 00:18:45,930 John Cook: It's beautiful. 370 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,379 Todd Bishop: Yeah. My thought was, I should go to this thing. 371 00:18:49,799 --> 00:18:52,650 John Cook: Yeah, why not? That's part of why we have GeekWire 372 00:18:52,650 --> 00:18:54,810 John Cook: based in Seattle, so you can pop into these types 373 00:18:54,810 --> 00:18:55,530 John Cook: of events, right? 374 00:18:55,530 --> 00:18:58,680 Todd Bishop: Yeah. What happens here matters everywhere, as the bots say. 375 00:18:58,680 --> 00:18:58,919 John Cook: There you go. 376 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,650 Todd Bishop: I asked for a press pass. And granted, that's a 377 00:19:05,070 --> 00:19:05,938 Todd Bishop: privileged thing- 378 00:19:06,630 --> 00:19:09,600 John Cook: Which I presume they've provided in years past. 379 00:19:09,660 --> 00:19:10,410 Todd Bishop: Absolutely. 380 00:19:10,740 --> 00:19:13,200 John Cook: Not just to you, but to other members of the media. 381 00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:17,340 Todd Bishop: Right, recognized media, which we're getting into all sorts of 382 00:19:17,340 --> 00:19:21,240 Todd Bishop: gray areas here, but it's the standard thing. And was told, " 383 00:19:21,869 --> 00:19:25,020 Todd Bishop: Thank you for your request. We do not have a 384 00:19:25,020 --> 00:19:29,698 Todd Bishop: press program this year." I went, " Oh, okay." So I 385 00:19:29,699 --> 00:19:33,510 Todd Bishop: thought to myself, I understand the polite brush- off. I'm 386 00:19:33,510 --> 00:19:36,990 Todd Bishop: going to ignore it and try again. So I said, " 387 00:19:37,530 --> 00:19:41,759 Todd Bishop: Got it, no problem. I don't need a program for 388 00:19:41,759 --> 00:19:44,339 Todd Bishop: the press to attend. I'd just like to attend in- 389 00:19:44,340 --> 00:19:47,519 Todd Bishop: person. For me, there's real benefits." I'm thinking in the 390 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,720 Todd Bishop: back of my mind. " You get to bump into developers, 391 00:19:51,780 --> 00:19:55,320 Todd Bishop: overhear conversations, see people you wouldn't otherwise see if you 392 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,979 Todd Bishop: were just attending online. You get to go into sessions." 393 00:19:58,980 --> 00:20:02,428 Todd Bishop: There's all sorts of serendipitous stuff that happens when you 394 00:20:02,429 --> 00:20:05,070 Todd Bishop: actually go in- person, just like working from the office. 395 00:20:05,670 --> 00:20:09,030 Todd Bishop: And I was told in response that there would be 396 00:20:09,030 --> 00:20:11,458 Todd Bishop: no press passes this year that I was welcome to 397 00:20:11,460 --> 00:20:13,950 Todd Bishop: buy a conference pass and go if I wanted. 398 00:20:14,099 --> 00:20:16,530 John Cook: Or you can tune in virtually, I presume. Yes. 399 00:20:16,950 --> 00:20:19,470 Todd Bishop: Now, I talked with some people at Microsoft about this. 400 00:20:19,530 --> 00:20:25,230 Todd Bishop: I understand their perspective. They're saying, essentially, that there are 401 00:20:25,230 --> 00:20:28,290 Todd Bishop: certain people who cannot attend these events in the press 402 00:20:28,290 --> 00:20:33,990 Todd Bishop: because of issues related to underlying medical conditions. And COVID 403 00:20:33,990 --> 00:20:36,480 Todd Bishop: has brought a lot of these things out. Hey, I'm 404 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:37,678 Todd Bishop: going to give them the benefit of the doubt. I 405 00:20:37,679 --> 00:20:40,168 Todd Bishop: can see the skepticism on your face, John, go ahead. 406 00:20:41,910 --> 00:20:41,940 John Cook: Okay. 407 00:20:41,969 --> 00:20:46,770 Todd Bishop: They're saying that, " The cost of making an equitable experience 408 00:20:46,770 --> 00:20:49,170 Todd Bishop: between those members of the press attending online and those 409 00:20:49,170 --> 00:20:52,859 Todd Bishop: attending in person would be too great for them." That 410 00:20:52,859 --> 00:20:55,619 Todd Bishop: is what they say. I'm going to take them at 411 00:20:55,619 --> 00:21:01,650 Todd Bishop: their word. But to me, it's an example of how 412 00:21:02,310 --> 00:21:09,300 Todd Bishop: companies, whether purposefully or not, are using this post pandemic 413 00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:18,209 Todd Bishop: period to maintain a level of separation and sanitization that 414 00:21:18,209 --> 00:21:21,450 Todd Bishop: did not exist prior to the pandemic, because of in- 415 00:21:21,450 --> 00:21:26,490 Todd Bishop: person, real human interactions. And I had another experience like 416 00:21:26,490 --> 00:21:30,359 Todd Bishop: this on a press conference with Tableau earlier in the 417 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:35,039 Todd Bishop: week. This was a Zoom press conference, and the way 418 00:21:35,039 --> 00:21:38,430 Todd Bishop: they did the questions was they allowed you to submit 419 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,990 Todd Bishop: chat. So I asked the question of the new Tableau 420 00:21:42,990 --> 00:21:46,859 Todd Bishop: CEO, something along the lines of, " How do you respond 421 00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:52,888 Todd Bishop: to concerns that Tableau is losing its identity and autonomy 422 00:21:53,430 --> 00:21:58,290 Todd Bishop: and important aspects of its brand under Salesforce?" Which of 423 00:21:58,290 --> 00:22:03,570 Todd Bishop: course acquired Tableau a few years ago. So obviously, that 424 00:22:03,570 --> 00:22:06,508 Todd Bishop: was the way I phrased the question. It had an 425 00:22:06,509 --> 00:22:13,199 Todd Bishop: assumption behind it. The question was read by a Tableau 426 00:22:13,199 --> 00:22:20,100 Todd Bishop: PR person to the CEO as, effectively, " How does Tableau 427 00:22:20,490 --> 00:22:23,820 Todd Bishop: make sure that it retains its autonomy and identity under 428 00:22:23,820 --> 00:22:27,509 Todd Bishop: Salesforce?" Not really the same question, kind of the same 429 00:22:27,509 --> 00:22:32,700 Todd Bishop: question, but really not. And I made my feelings known 430 00:22:32,700 --> 00:22:36,840 Todd Bishop: to the Tableau people afterward about how that struck me. 431 00:22:37,710 --> 00:22:45,000 Todd Bishop: That to me is shades of 1984. And now maybe 432 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,080 Todd Bishop: that's too dramatic, but if you're going to have an 433 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,320 Todd Bishop: independent press, shouldn't they be allowed to directly question the 434 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,840 Todd Bishop: people that they're writing about? And at the very least, 435 00:22:54,869 --> 00:22:59,460 Todd Bishop: shouldn't their questions be relayed verbatim and rant? What do 436 00:22:59,460 --> 00:22:59,940 Todd Bishop: you think? 437 00:23:00,780 --> 00:23:02,969 John Cook: This is a good rant. I love when you go 438 00:23:02,969 --> 00:23:05,938 John Cook: off on your tangents. I mean, of course, I agree. 439 00:23:06,090 --> 00:23:06,600 John Cook: I mean, what is it you're asking? 440 00:23:06,601 --> 00:23:07,919 Todd Bishop: Well, but you're on my side. 441 00:23:08,369 --> 00:23:13,830 John Cook: Yeah, I mean, it's troubling. I think it's bad for 442 00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:17,040 John Cook: society, bad for democracy. I think you're seeing it not 443 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,910 John Cook: just in the business world, but certainly in the political 444 00:23:20,910 --> 00:23:23,819 John Cook: world. I mean, look what the big news was this 445 00:23:23,820 --> 00:23:26,638 John Cook: week in terms of the CNN Town Hall- 446 00:23:26,670 --> 00:23:26,701 Todd Bishop: Oh, wow. 447 00:23:26,701 --> 00:23:30,810 John Cook: ... with Donald Trump, and boy talk about controlling a 448 00:23:30,810 --> 00:23:33,809 John Cook: message and stacking the deck with the audience that they 449 00:23:33,809 --> 00:23:37,590 John Cook: placed in that town hall. It's completely unfair. And I 450 00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:41,398 John Cook: guess CNN probably looks at it and says, " Well, we're 451 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,330 John Cook: getting an interview with the former president," that's probably newsworthy. 452 00:23:45,330 --> 00:23:48,060 John Cook: You'd want to take that. But then there's a negotiation 453 00:23:48,060 --> 00:23:50,820 John Cook: behind the scenes in terms of what the format's going 454 00:23:50,820 --> 00:23:52,678 John Cook: to be like, who's going to be in the audience? 455 00:23:52,679 --> 00:23:57,029 John Cook: And that was not the best moment for CNN 456 00:23:57,210 --> 00:23:59,459 Todd Bishop: I caught only a bit of it, but I got 457 00:23:59,459 --> 00:24:03,570 Todd Bishop: to say, Kaitlan Collins, the CNN reporter who did the 458 00:24:03,570 --> 00:24:08,250 Todd Bishop: moderation, I'm sure she's being criticized roundly by people on 459 00:24:08,250 --> 00:24:11,070 Todd Bishop: different sides of the political spectrum, but in terms of 460 00:24:11,309 --> 00:24:15,780 Todd Bishop: just journalistic, oh, what's the word, John? 461 00:24:15,809 --> 00:24:20,668 John Cook: Rigor, journalistic rigor and professionalism and smarts. I thought she 462 00:24:20,670 --> 00:24:21,540 John Cook: did a great job. 463 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:22,530 Todd Bishop: Totally agreed. 464 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,460 John Cook: And great job in a impossible situation, which is what 465 00:24:26,460 --> 00:24:30,359 John Cook: a lot of people have been saying. I listened to 466 00:24:30,929 --> 00:24:33,989 John Cook: Scott Galloway and Kara Swisher on their pivot podcast, and 467 00:24:33,990 --> 00:24:36,419 John Cook: they were doing a breakdown and an analysis of it. 468 00:24:36,779 --> 00:24:40,470 John Cook: And hearing Kara talk about the interview style. She was 469 00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:45,869 John Cook: a little more critical, but it was just not a 470 00:24:46,410 --> 00:24:50,130 John Cook: good situation to throw a reporter into. But yeah, I 471 00:24:50,130 --> 00:24:53,069 John Cook: think this gets to the point you're making that there's 472 00:24:53,070 --> 00:24:55,409 John Cook: a lot of control, a lot of sanitation. There's no 473 00:24:55,410 --> 00:24:58,800 John Cook: more freewheeling, and it's not just Trump. I mean, Biden 474 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:05,008 John Cook: has done fewer press conferences than the last 20 presidents, 475 00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:08,668 John Cook: or a number of presidents prior to him, and I 476 00:25:08,670 --> 00:25:11,850 John Cook: think we should be hearing more from him with more 477 00:25:11,850 --> 00:25:14,639 John Cook: direct questions from an independent press. 478 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:15,870 Todd Bishop: I'm glad you brought that up. 479 00:25:15,870 --> 00:25:20,070 John Cook: But the press has been beaten down and battered for 480 00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:24,900 John Cook: years now, and it has such a negative perception. And 481 00:25:25,138 --> 00:25:29,069 John Cook: some of it's brought upon by the industry themselves, where 482 00:25:29,070 --> 00:25:35,160 John Cook: you have very splintered and political press. I mean, it 483 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,510 John Cook: is hard for people that are more centrist to exist 484 00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:43,648 John Cook: in this world. So it's a challenge, but it's not 485 00:25:43,650 --> 00:25:48,119 John Cook: going to matter whether we're all AI generated images on 486 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,480 John Cook: TV and news stories written. So then it's all going 487 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,148 John Cook: to come from one bot. Maybe that'll take us back 488 00:25:54,150 --> 00:25:56,938 John Cook: to the Walter Cronkite days, because all the information people 489 00:25:56,940 --> 00:25:59,758 John Cook: will be getting will just be funneled through two or 490 00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:04,228 John Cook: three bots, and it'll be like ABC News, NBC News, and 491 00:26:04,230 --> 00:26:07,590 John Cook: CBS News. It'll be the Google bot, the Microsoft bot, 492 00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:10,050 John Cook: the Amazon or Apple bot, and that's how you'll get 493 00:26:10,050 --> 00:26:10,800 John Cook: your information. 494 00:26:11,190 --> 00:26:13,859 Todd Bishop: Just circling back to Google I/ O, I think it's 495 00:26:13,859 --> 00:26:16,740 Todd Bishop: important to recognize that tech companies as well have played 496 00:26:16,740 --> 00:26:20,520 Todd Bishop: a role in this through undermining, on a large scale, 497 00:26:20,730 --> 00:26:23,910 Todd Bishop: a lot of the business models that many media companies 498 00:26:23,910 --> 00:26:26,218 Todd Bishop: have relied on. That came up a little bit at 499 00:26:26,220 --> 00:26:29,460 Todd Bishop: Google I/ O this week. In interacting with some of 500 00:26:29,460 --> 00:26:34,678 Todd Bishop: the other reporters, I was fascinated by how much they 501 00:26:34,679 --> 00:26:39,299 Todd Bishop: were focused on policy and societal issues in the middle 502 00:26:39,299 --> 00:26:43,140 Todd Bishop: of this tech conference. 5, 6, 7 years ago, it 503 00:26:43,140 --> 00:26:44,760 Todd Bishop: would not have been that way, at least in my 504 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:51,510 Todd Bishop: experience. And the end result was, I think in some 505 00:26:51,510 --> 00:26:54,540 Todd Bishop: ways, maybe you could criticize me for this, but in 506 00:26:54,540 --> 00:27:00,239 Todd Bishop: some ways, some of the awe and the wonder about 507 00:27:00,420 --> 00:27:04,830 Todd Bishop: what we're seeing right now with generative AI has gone 508 00:27:04,830 --> 00:27:10,920 Todd Bishop: away from the perspective of these reporters. And I think 509 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,559 Todd Bishop: you can go too far in one direction or the 510 00:27:13,559 --> 00:27:16,408 Todd Bishop: other. You can go too far in terms of the 511 00:27:16,410 --> 00:27:22,168 Todd Bishop: potential downsides of AI and all of the advances that 512 00:27:22,170 --> 00:27:24,119 Todd Bishop: we're seeing. And you can go too far on the 513 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,960 Todd Bishop: side of being amazed by it and not thinking about 514 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,898 Todd Bishop: all of the potential pitfalls. It would be nice to 515 00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:33,270 Todd Bishop: be somewhere in between. I kept going back and forth, 516 00:27:33,809 --> 00:27:37,050 Todd Bishop: but I got to say, just looking at the kind 517 00:27:37,050 --> 00:27:40,050 Todd Bishop: of stuff that's shown on stage, I have a hard 518 00:27:40,050 --> 00:27:42,388 Todd Bishop: time, my default, maybe this is why I'm just a 519 00:27:42,390 --> 00:27:47,218 Todd Bishop: natural geek, I sit there and go, " Holy cow, what 520 00:27:47,219 --> 00:27:49,619 Todd Bishop: can I do with this stuff? This is amazing." That 521 00:27:49,619 --> 00:27:52,049 Todd Bishop: is my first reaction. And then I go, " Oh, yeah, 522 00:27:52,049 --> 00:27:56,339 Todd Bishop: what about the downside?" And maybe that's my ultimate failing 523 00:27:56,339 --> 00:27:58,920 Todd Bishop: as a tech reporter in some ways, is that I'm 524 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,908 Todd Bishop: not thinking first about the negatives. I'm thinking first about 525 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:03,840 Todd Bishop: the potential. 526 00:28:04,170 --> 00:28:07,319 John Cook: I don't think that's a negative. I think going in 527 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,859 John Cook: with some sort of interest and curiosity about how it's 528 00:28:10,859 --> 00:28:15,600 John Cook: going to work will lead to better journalism at the end of the day. So- 529 00:28:15,660 --> 00:28:17,638 Todd Bishop: It's got to be tempered though. It's got to be 530 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,770 Todd Bishop: tempered. And I always have to remind myself of that. 531 00:28:20,010 --> 00:28:22,740 John Cook: Yeah. Well, I think we also have reporters on staff 532 00:28:22,740 --> 00:28:26,280 John Cook: that are looking at those societal issues. It is interesting 533 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,339 John Cook: as you think about the public policy components of this, 534 00:28:30,029 --> 00:28:33,450 John Cook: and I wonder, and I'm curious how you think about 535 00:28:33,900 --> 00:28:36,990 John Cook: just the impact that social media has had on society 536 00:28:36,990 --> 00:28:41,460 John Cook: over the last 10 years, 15 years, and whether we've 537 00:28:41,460 --> 00:28:44,490 John Cook: woken up to the fact of how generative AI is 538 00:28:44,490 --> 00:28:47,039 John Cook: going to impact society? And do you think there will 539 00:28:47,039 --> 00:28:49,110 John Cook: be regulations? Do you think we're going to get ahead 540 00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:52,770 John Cook: of this? Because I mean, the move fast and break 541 00:28:52,770 --> 00:28:56,489 John Cook: things model of Facebook certainly moved fast and broke some 542 00:28:56,490 --> 00:28:59,369 John Cook: things, and now we're all suffering from a lot of 543 00:28:59,370 --> 00:29:03,059 John Cook: the consequences of that. I think the same potential is 544 00:29:03,059 --> 00:29:08,100 John Cook: there with generative, AI, maybe it's already here, to break 545 00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:11,370 John Cook: some stuff, probably even more so than social media. And 546 00:29:11,670 --> 00:29:16,829 John Cook: so the question is, are the public policy components going 547 00:29:16,830 --> 00:29:20,130 John Cook: to be in place to put the right guardrails around 548 00:29:20,130 --> 00:29:23,909 John Cook: this? And my gut says, " Heck no. It's not," because 549 00:29:23,910 --> 00:29:28,650 John Cook: we can't even get basic stuff done in this country. 550 00:29:29,340 --> 00:29:33,150 John Cook: I mean, it's like, let alone talking about AI. I 551 00:29:33,150 --> 00:29:36,300 John Cook: was hopeful in that CNN debate, actually, I wish they 552 00:29:36,300 --> 00:29:39,179 John Cook: did talk about generative AI. That would've been a complete 553 00:29:39,179 --> 00:29:42,810 John Cook: curveball question. I would've loved to have had Trump try 554 00:29:42,810 --> 00:29:47,370 John Cook: to answer that. That would've been interesting, at least. Why 555 00:29:47,370 --> 00:29:50,250 John Cook: not throw a curve ball in like that? It's going 556 00:29:50,250 --> 00:29:52,979 John Cook: to have a massive, it already is having a massive 557 00:29:52,980 --> 00:29:57,359 John Cook: impact. And so I think it's completely fair game. I 558 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:58,889 John Cook: would've liked to have seen that question. 559 00:29:59,639 --> 00:30:04,560 Todd Bishop: Well, I don't think you would've gotten a substantive discussion- 560 00:30:05,490 --> 00:30:05,491 John Cook: Oh, well, no. 561 00:30:05,491 --> 00:30:05,492 Todd Bishop: ... in the general public- 562 00:30:05,492 --> 00:30:05,493 John Cook: You don't get- 563 00:30:05,493 --> 00:30:08,340 Todd Bishop: ... in the general public. And that gets to the 564 00:30:08,340 --> 00:30:11,099 Todd Bishop: broader point we're making right now, which is that then 565 00:30:11,099 --> 00:30:15,480 Todd Bishop: is the role of journalists, especially at mainstream media publications. 566 00:30:15,780 --> 00:30:19,380 Todd Bishop: It's to put these issues in context so they are 567 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,331 Todd Bishop: easily inserted into the conversations like the ones you're referencing now. 568 00:30:24,331 --> 00:30:28,590 John Cook: Right. And why questions shouldn't be sanitized or pressed, should 569 00:30:28,590 --> 00:30:31,680 John Cook: not be barred from going to events to see... I 570 00:30:31,710 --> 00:30:32,549 John Cook: totally agree. 571 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,680 Todd Bishop: And to your point, Facebook did move fast and I 572 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,960 Todd Bishop: think Facebook broke us. And that is what we're seeing 573 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,310 Todd Bishop: with social media. John, I'm still heavily using that Unplug 574 00:30:47,460 --> 00:30:51,269 Todd Bishop: app that I've referenced. It stops me two or three 575 00:30:51,270 --> 00:30:54,240 Todd Bishop: times a night from going down a YouTube wormhole. And 576 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,390 Todd Bishop: it is hard for me to acknowledge, even to myself, 577 00:30:57,870 --> 00:31:01,680 Todd Bishop: that I have that issue with the addiction to that 578 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,310 Todd Bishop: platform. It's YouTube. YouTube Shorts, I can sit there for 579 00:31:05,340 --> 00:31:08,880 Todd Bishop: hours and waste my life. And I just got to 580 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,289 Todd Bishop: say, point taken, John. I was excited about Facebook back 581 00:31:13,289 --> 00:31:15,660 Todd Bishop: in the day, much like I'm excited by generative AI 582 00:31:15,660 --> 00:31:19,680 Todd Bishop: now, and I feel like I've just gone through some 583 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,839 Todd Bishop: tech therapy with you, so thank you very much. 584 00:31:22,770 --> 00:31:27,809 John Cook: Okay. Well, be excited and explore it, but cast a 585 00:31:27,809 --> 00:31:30,510 John Cook: critical eye and think about the consequences. 586 00:31:30,990 --> 00:31:31,380 Todd Bishop: All right. 587 00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:33,180 John Cook: That's what we should be doing in the reporting. 588 00:31:33,870 --> 00:31:37,470 Todd Bishop: I'm going to go into ChatGPT and find out what 589 00:31:37,500 --> 00:31:40,920 Todd Bishop: Bing and Bard think about this and put it into 590 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:48,810 Todd Bishop: your voice and... No, no. All right. Well, I did 591 00:31:48,810 --> 00:31:50,610 Todd Bishop: not get a chance to talk as much as I 592 00:31:50,610 --> 00:31:53,670 Todd Bishop: had hoped about my visit to Expedia this past week. 593 00:31:53,670 --> 00:31:58,530 Todd Bishop: They're extraordinary new campus on the Seattle waterfront. Not really 594 00:31:58,530 --> 00:32:03,299 Todd Bishop: that new, frankly, but new post pandemic, and some interesting 595 00:32:03,299 --> 00:32:07,020 Todd Bishop: comments by Barry Diller, the Expedia Chairman, the media mogul, 596 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,740 Todd Bishop: about the value of in- person work and the potential 597 00:32:10,740 --> 00:32:12,930 Todd Bishop: and the risks of generative AI. So I will link 598 00:32:12,930 --> 00:32:15,419 Todd Bishop: to all of that from the show notes, and really, 599 00:32:15,420 --> 00:32:17,280 Todd Bishop: you got to see the pictures of the place. It's 600 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,570 Todd Bishop: just a amazing campus and reason to go to work, 601 00:32:21,570 --> 00:32:24,959 Todd Bishop: I'm sure, for some of those Expedia employees. All right, John. 602 00:32:25,170 --> 00:32:26,820 John Cook: Good seeing you. Enjoy California. 603 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,060 Todd Bishop: Thank you. Thanks for listening, everybody. Be sure to subscribe, 604 00:32:30,090 --> 00:32:33,660 Todd Bishop: rate, and review the GeekWire Podcast wherever you listen. We'll 605 00:32:33,660 --> 00:32:36,719 Todd Bishop: be back with a new episode next week. Until then, 606 00:32:36,780 --> 00:32:37,739 Todd Bishop: I'm Todd Bishop. 607 00:32:38,099 --> 00:32:38,940 John Cook: And I'm John Cook. 608 00:32:39,210 --> 00:32:40,110 Todd Bishop: Thank you for listening to GeekWire.