1 00:00:03,180 --> 00:00:05,220 Todd Bishop: We talked about this briefly before, but how do you 2 00:00:05,220 --> 00:00:06,660 Todd Bishop: pronounce the name of the company? 3 00:00:07,230 --> 00:00:07,320 Caroline Cadwell: Unpluq. 4 00:00:07,620 --> 00:00:08,730 Todd Bishop: As if it were a G. 5 00:00:08,940 --> 00:00:11,760 Caroline Cadwell: Yeah. We haven't formally made a decision about this, but 6 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:12,690 Caroline Cadwell: that's how I say it, so- 7 00:00:12,691 --> 00:00:12,901 Todd Bishop: Okay. 8 00:00:14,250 --> 00:00:16,890 Caroline Cadwell: I figure we'll get enough momentum out there of people 9 00:00:16,890 --> 00:00:20,790 Caroline Cadwell: reading and seeing about it. Yeah, well, although now they're 10 00:00:20,790 --> 00:00:21,960 Caroline Cadwell: going to know it's Unpluq because they're going to listen to your podcast. 11 00:00:22,410 --> 00:00:22,710 Todd Bishop: Right, right. 12 00:00:22,710 --> 00:00:23,190 Caroline Cadwell: It's going to be out there. 13 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,510 Todd Bishop: The millions and trillions of people. I've got it... I 14 00:00:27,690 --> 00:00:30,120 Todd Bishop: used it last night. I'm going to reference it. It 15 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,870 Todd Bishop: made me read as opposed to get stuck on a YouTube. 16 00:00:35,220 --> 00:00:37,320 Caroline Cadwell: Did it make you read or did it help you make a decision to read? 17 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,470 Todd Bishop: Oh, I love it. I'm glad Kurt is recording this because 18 00:00:40,470 --> 00:00:50,040 Todd Bishop: that's exactly the point. Welcome to GeekWire from geekwire. com 19 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,650 Todd Bishop: in Seattle. I'm Todd Bishop. We are coming to you 20 00:00:52,650 --> 00:00:55,020 Todd Bishop: from Seattle where we get to report each day on 21 00:00:55,020 --> 00:00:58,650 Todd Bishop: what's happening around us in tech, science and innovation. What 22 00:00:58,650 --> 00:01:01,320 Todd Bishop: happens here matters everywhere and every week on this show 23 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,600 Todd Bishop: we talk about some of the most interesting stories we've 24 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:05,850 Todd Bishop: been covering, and in this case, some of the most 25 00:01:05,850 --> 00:01:09,180 Todd Bishop: interesting technology we've been using. I'm pleased to be joined 26 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:14,010 Todd Bishop: today by Caroline Cadwell, CEO of Unpluq. That's a startup 27 00:01:14,010 --> 00:01:17,850 Todd Bishop: that just recently graduated from the Techstars Seattle Accelerator program. 28 00:01:18,150 --> 00:01:21,750 Todd Bishop: It makes an app and a keychain tag that helped people 29 00:01:21,750 --> 00:01:25,200 Todd Bishop: be more conscious about how they use their smartphones and 30 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,640 Todd Bishop: especially the addictive social media apps on their phones. Caroline, 31 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,230 Todd Bishop: it's great to see you and great to have you on 32 00:01:31,230 --> 00:01:31,650 Todd Bishop: the show. 33 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:33,660 Caroline Cadwell: Thanks so much for having me. Great to see you 34 00:01:33,660 --> 00:01:34,199 Caroline Cadwell: as well, Todd. 35 00:01:34,470 --> 00:01:37,140 Todd Bishop: You first reached out to me months ago, it was 36 00:01:37,140 --> 00:01:40,709 Todd Bishop: back in January after the story broke about Seattle Public 37 00:01:40,709 --> 00:01:44,880 Todd Bishop: Schools suing a bunch of social media giants, and you 38 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,280 Todd Bishop: said, I've got an app that can help with that 39 00:01:47,580 --> 00:01:50,940 Todd Bishop: in terms of the mental health issues that this lawsuit 40 00:01:50,940 --> 00:01:54,810 Todd Bishop: raised. Can you tell us the story of Unpluq? And 41 00:01:54,810 --> 00:01:56,760 Todd Bishop: by the way, I should tell people who are right 42 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,900 Todd Bishop: now searching on their smartphones for this company. It's U- N- P- L- U- 43 00:02:00,930 --> 00:02:04,080 Todd Bishop: Q. But Caroline, can you tell us the story behind 44 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:04,650 Todd Bishop: this company? 45 00:02:05,070 --> 00:02:10,620 Caroline Cadwell: Yeah, so Unpluq started because we suffered from a problem that 46 00:02:10,620 --> 00:02:13,620 Caroline Cadwell: most people can relate to. So it's myself and my 47 00:02:13,620 --> 00:02:17,070 Caroline Cadwell: two co- founders, Tim and Jorn. And Tim and Jorn 48 00:02:17,070 --> 00:02:19,770 Caroline Cadwell: actually started this in university as a project because they 49 00:02:19,770 --> 00:02:22,800 Caroline Cadwell: had trouble focusing, well one had trouble focusing and one 50 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,860 Caroline Cadwell: had trouble sleeping. How many of us have ever gone 51 00:02:25,860 --> 00:02:28,889 Caroline Cadwell: through a series of short videos before trying to go 52 00:02:28,889 --> 00:02:31,169 Caroline Cadwell: to bed and then are too stimulated and don't fall 53 00:02:31,169 --> 00:02:33,930 Caroline Cadwell: asleep as well as we wished we had? So it 54 00:02:33,930 --> 00:02:35,639 Caroline Cadwell: started from there and then I joined the company a 55 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,570 Caroline Cadwell: little later on after they had idea'd it and played around 56 00:02:39,570 --> 00:02:44,639 Caroline Cadwell: and started working on a solution for Unpluq and I came on 57 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:46,650 Caroline Cadwell: board and really related to it because I'd gone through 58 00:02:46,650 --> 00:02:49,860 Caroline Cadwell: a burnout and for me it was about separating, much 59 00:02:49,860 --> 00:02:53,490 Caroline Cadwell: like many people after the pandemic, it was about separating 60 00:02:53,490 --> 00:02:57,119 Caroline Cadwell: my work and my downtime and giving myself the chance 61 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:58,049 Caroline Cadwell: to have some downtime. 62 00:02:59,310 --> 00:03:03,210 Todd Bishop: This has been an interesting experience for me because you loaned me 63 00:03:03,210 --> 00:03:06,389 Todd Bishop: an Unpluq tag and I've been using it with the 64 00:03:06,389 --> 00:03:09,510 Todd Bishop: app and I have to say, and I can talk about 65 00:03:09,510 --> 00:03:13,139 Todd Bishop: this a little bit later, but it has changed my 66 00:03:13,290 --> 00:03:17,610 Todd Bishop: understanding of the impact that certain apps were having on 67 00:03:17,610 --> 00:03:18,329 Todd Bishop: my life. 68 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:18,960 Caroline Cadwell: That's amazing. 69 00:03:20,010 --> 00:03:24,060 Todd Bishop: I think the thing that's struck me most is it's 70 00:03:24,060 --> 00:03:26,220 Todd Bishop: almost like you have to admit that you're powerless to 71 00:03:26,220 --> 00:03:29,580 Todd Bishop: them. That was the insight that I got when I 72 00:03:29,580 --> 00:03:34,530 Todd Bishop: realized that I was scrolling YouTube shorts for an hour 73 00:03:34,530 --> 00:03:37,530 Todd Bishop: and a half and looking up and suddenly the time 74 00:03:37,530 --> 00:03:39,810 Todd Bishop: was gone and I knew it was an issue, but 75 00:03:39,810 --> 00:03:42,000 Todd Bishop: I didn't really understand just how much of an issue 76 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,610 Todd Bishop: it was until I stopped using it, with the help 77 00:03:44,610 --> 00:03:48,240 Todd Bishop: of your app. How much awareness is there from your 78 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,940 Todd Bishop: perspective of this problem in society right now? 79 00:03:51,690 --> 00:03:54,480 Caroline Cadwell: First of all, I'm really glad to hear that it 80 00:03:54,540 --> 00:03:58,350 Caroline Cadwell: has helped you just be aware of your own, really 81 00:03:58,350 --> 00:04:00,630 Caroline Cadwell: the benefit that you can have from cutting back I 82 00:04:00,630 --> 00:04:02,880 Caroline Cadwell: think is the bigger thing. And secondly, in terms of 83 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:09,000 Caroline Cadwell: awareness, screen time is a household phrase. Most people know 84 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,030 Caroline Cadwell: it's not great, they don't feel great when they spend 85 00:04:12,090 --> 00:04:14,490 Caroline Cadwell: a lot of extra time on their phones, but frankly, 86 00:04:14,490 --> 00:04:17,460 Caroline Cadwell: I'm not anti- technology like we love our phones too. 87 00:04:17,850 --> 00:04:20,880 Caroline Cadwell: I love my phone. It's very useful to me, but 88 00:04:20,940 --> 00:04:26,820 Caroline Cadwell: I could definitely use some help to overcome what has 89 00:04:26,820 --> 00:04:31,620 Caroline Cadwell: been engineered against the very biology of being human because 90 00:04:31,620 --> 00:04:35,820 Caroline Cadwell: it's an unreasonable task to be able to resist the 91 00:04:35,820 --> 00:04:42,359 Caroline Cadwell: temptation that's really forcing these spikes in dopamine. That is what 92 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,310 Caroline Cadwell: keeps us coming back in our eyeballs on screens. We're in 93 00:04:44,310 --> 00:04:47,460 Caroline Cadwell: the attention economy, so of course everything that is a 94 00:04:47,460 --> 00:04:49,650 Caroline Cadwell: digital product is trying to keep our attention because that 95 00:04:49,650 --> 00:04:52,230 Caroline Cadwell: is how they make money and that's fine. Companies need 96 00:04:52,230 --> 00:04:55,620 Caroline Cadwell: to make money, but we need tools to help us 97 00:04:56,070 --> 00:04:59,700 Caroline Cadwell: preserve what it is about being human, our wellness, there's 98 00:04:59,700 --> 00:05:02,700 Caroline Cadwell: a point where automating everything doesn't really bring us that 99 00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:06,060 Caroline Cadwell: much more benefit and can cause the kind of fractures 100 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,839 Caroline Cadwell: in wellness that we see, which is exactly why those 101 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,469 Caroline Cadwell: school districts are suing big tech is because those social 102 00:05:13,470 --> 00:05:18,330 Caroline Cadwell: media apps. And it goes beyond social to games and 103 00:05:18,390 --> 00:05:20,580 Caroline Cadwell: for older people dating apps as well can be very 104 00:05:20,580 --> 00:05:25,440 Caroline Cadwell: distracting. But it goes back to why those school districts 105 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,570 Caroline Cadwell: and the Seattle School District and now several others have 106 00:05:27,570 --> 00:05:30,990 Caroline Cadwell: followed why they're doing that because they now see an 107 00:05:30,990 --> 00:05:34,170 Caroline Cadwell: uptick in mental health services that they need to provide 108 00:05:34,170 --> 00:05:38,549 Caroline Cadwell: for students and for children. In terms of seeing it 109 00:05:38,550 --> 00:05:42,179 Caroline Cadwell: out in the world, it's really topical. I think it'd 110 00:05:42,180 --> 00:05:45,089 Caroline Cadwell: be hard to go a day without seeing some kind 111 00:05:45,089 --> 00:05:50,099 Caroline Cadwell: of conversation publicly around screen time and the detrimental effects 112 00:05:50,100 --> 00:05:52,950 Caroline Cadwell: that it has on us as humans, as children, as 113 00:05:52,950 --> 00:05:54,240 Caroline Cadwell: developing kids. 114 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:59,640 Todd Bishop: Unpluq works on this concept of adding intentional friction. Can 115 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,190 Todd Bishop: you give me a sense for how you and the team came 116 00:06:02,190 --> 00:06:06,390 Todd Bishop: to this approach, what it involves and how the app works? 117 00:06:07,140 --> 00:06:09,900 Caroline Cadwell: So there's a lot of things out there that you 118 00:06:09,900 --> 00:06:12,120 Caroline Cadwell: can do to reduce screen time and there is a 119 00:06:12,300 --> 00:06:14,909 Caroline Cadwell: pretty clear reason why they don't work that well for 120 00:06:14,910 --> 00:06:16,590 Caroline Cadwell: a lot of people. They do work for some people, 121 00:06:16,650 --> 00:06:19,620 Caroline Cadwell: which is great, but we've found that a lot of 122 00:06:19,620 --> 00:06:23,460 Caroline Cadwell: people see faster and better success with Unpluq. It's because 123 00:06:23,460 --> 00:06:28,080 Caroline Cadwell: we're tapping into a psychological theory called rational override theory. 124 00:06:28,470 --> 00:06:30,870 Caroline Cadwell: And this has to do with introducing friction in order 125 00:06:30,870 --> 00:06:34,050 Caroline Cadwell: to support a habit change. And when we say friction, 126 00:06:34,050 --> 00:06:36,000 Caroline Cadwell: I know a lot of your listeners are in tech 127 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:37,710 Caroline Cadwell: and so they'll understand the word friction, but just in 128 00:06:37,710 --> 00:06:40,380 Caroline Cadwell: case we're talking about adding a bit of resistance, making 129 00:06:40,380 --> 00:06:43,140 Caroline Cadwell: things a little bit harder, making them the right amount 130 00:06:43,140 --> 00:06:45,599 Caroline Cadwell: of hard. So you have to think twice. It gives 131 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:47,700 Caroline Cadwell: you a moment of pause and, as I see it, a 132 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,790 Caroline Cadwell: moment to have a chance of being successful and making 133 00:06:50,790 --> 00:06:52,680 Caroline Cadwell: the decision that you really wanted to make for yourself 134 00:06:53,190 --> 00:06:57,480 Caroline Cadwell: instead of going into that automatic habit that we all 135 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,180 Caroline Cadwell: have when you're at lunch with one friend and they 136 00:07:00,180 --> 00:07:02,339 Caroline Cadwell: step away to the bathroom and your hand immediately picks 137 00:07:02,339 --> 00:07:05,400 Caroline Cadwell: up your phone. So it helps you to break that 138 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,800 Caroline Cadwell: kind of habit so that you have an opportunity instead 139 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,800 Caroline Cadwell: to see something amazing in front of you or see a friend that you haven't seen 140 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,490 Caroline Cadwell: in ten years walk past or hear what your child 141 00:07:14,490 --> 00:07:18,360 Caroline Cadwell: did in school that day and really listen. So the 142 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,450 Caroline Cadwell: way that we actually introduce this idea of rational override 143 00:07:21,450 --> 00:07:24,360 Caroline Cadwell: theory, the way we take this scientific theory and put 144 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,770 Caroline Cadwell: it into practice is by separating that automatic behavior of 145 00:07:28,770 --> 00:07:31,410 Caroline Cadwell: picking up your phone from being able to access the 146 00:07:31,410 --> 00:07:33,210 Caroline Cadwell: thing that you're bringing is trying to get you to 147 00:07:33,210 --> 00:07:35,760 Caroline Cadwell: go do, which is an automatic habit that you've learned, 148 00:07:36,090 --> 00:07:37,770 Caroline Cadwell: right? Ten years ago, the first thing we did in 149 00:07:37,770 --> 00:07:39,330 Caroline Cadwell: the morning was not look at our phones, but it 150 00:07:39,330 --> 00:07:42,570 Caroline Cadwell: is now for most people. And so that's become very 151 00:07:42,570 --> 00:07:46,620 Caroline Cadwell: automatic. The way Unpluq works is that you install our app 152 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,250 Caroline Cadwell: and you select which apps, yes, it's an app that 153 00:07:50,250 --> 00:07:53,370 Caroline Cadwell: blocks apps. You're going to select which apps you want 154 00:07:53,370 --> 00:07:56,340 Caroline Cadwell: to block and you then set a schedule to that 155 00:07:56,730 --> 00:07:58,830 Caroline Cadwell: so you can choose when you want them blocked. So 156 00:07:58,830 --> 00:08:02,040 Caroline Cadwell: for a lot of people that looks like blocking social 157 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,620 Caroline Cadwell: media and games and Reddit and Twitter and things like 158 00:08:04,620 --> 00:08:08,010 Caroline Cadwell: that during the workday so that they can have an 159 00:08:08,010 --> 00:08:11,489 Caroline Cadwell: efficient workday and maybe if they're remote, maybe even end 160 00:08:11,490 --> 00:08:13,290 Caroline Cadwell: a little early because they got everything done that they 161 00:08:13,290 --> 00:08:16,170 Caroline Cadwell: wanted to on time. And for other people that is 162 00:08:16,170 --> 00:08:20,670 Caroline Cadwell: about separating, like me separating work from my downtime and 163 00:08:20,670 --> 00:08:22,410 Caroline Cadwell: being able to give my brain a real break so 164 00:08:22,410 --> 00:08:24,270 Caroline Cadwell: that I can do my best work when I'm back at 165 00:08:24,270 --> 00:08:26,730 Caroline Cadwell: it the next day. So I block Slack and LinkedIn at 166 00:08:26,730 --> 00:08:29,580 Caroline Cadwell: night and I have them keep blocking until I start 167 00:08:29,580 --> 00:08:30,510 Caroline Cadwell: my workday the next day. 168 00:08:32,070 --> 00:08:33,599 Todd Bishop: I have not been doing that. I kind of like 169 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:34,860 Todd Bishop: that idea. Keep going. Yes. 170 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,329 Caroline Cadwell: Try it. Yeah. Really, one of the features that we'd 171 00:08:39,330 --> 00:08:42,960 Caroline Cadwell: love to add over the next few months is some pre- 172 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,540 Caroline Cadwell: made schedules that can help you get started faster with 173 00:08:45,540 --> 00:08:48,209 Caroline Cadwell: ideas like this that you might relate to. So I'm 174 00:08:48,210 --> 00:08:50,339 Caroline Cadwell: glad to hear that you resonate with that one. Another 175 00:08:50,340 --> 00:08:53,040 Caroline Cadwell: one might be on the weekend, you don't want any 176 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,470 Caroline Cadwell: app that isn't critical accessible at all because you want 177 00:08:55,470 --> 00:08:57,480 Caroline Cadwell: to be social on the weekend or you want to spend 178 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,670 Caroline Cadwell: time with your family or you want to do physical 179 00:08:59,670 --> 00:09:02,579 Caroline Cadwell: activities. And so you also have the ability to white- 180 00:09:02,580 --> 00:09:05,309 Caroline Cadwell: list contacts and things like that in case of emergencies. 181 00:09:05,309 --> 00:09:08,670 Caroline Cadwell: And the thing is you're not blocked out completely. And 182 00:09:08,670 --> 00:09:12,000 Caroline Cadwell: that's really the key is that you have that friction 183 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,949 Caroline Cadwell: there. So you can still access the apps that you've 184 00:09:13,950 --> 00:09:15,809 Caroline Cadwell: blocked, but you have to go through a series of 185 00:09:15,809 --> 00:09:20,250 Caroline Cadwell: steps and that is what makes you in charge of 186 00:09:20,250 --> 00:09:22,979 Caroline Cadwell: your screen time, but have the opportunity to make a 187 00:09:22,980 --> 00:09:26,190 Caroline Cadwell: good decision about reducing it and actually succeed at it. 188 00:09:26,790 --> 00:09:29,400 Caroline Cadwell: And that is really the difference is that if you 189 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,800 Caroline Cadwell: have to get up and go get your Unpluq tag, 190 00:09:32,010 --> 00:09:34,620 Caroline Cadwell: which is a little NFC key fob, I'm sure you'll 191 00:09:34,620 --> 00:09:36,929 Caroline Cadwell: describe it better for me because you've holding one right 192 00:09:36,929 --> 00:09:40,170 Caroline Cadwell: now and I actually am not. You have to think twice. 193 00:09:40,170 --> 00:09:43,439 Caroline Cadwell: So if you're on the sofa and you're watching TV 194 00:09:44,010 --> 00:09:46,439 Caroline Cadwell: and a commercial comes on or something uncomfortable is happening, 195 00:09:47,100 --> 00:09:48,660 Caroline Cadwell: you see a lot of people pick up their phones 196 00:09:48,660 --> 00:09:51,089 Caroline Cadwell: and start looking at something else. And if you have 197 00:09:51,090 --> 00:09:53,100 Caroline Cadwell: to get up and go get your keys from your 198 00:09:53,100 --> 00:09:59,340 Caroline Cadwell: door, from your bag, from wherever you put it makes you think 199 00:09:59,340 --> 00:10:02,069 Caroline Cadwell: twice about whether or not you actually wanted to pick 200 00:10:02,070 --> 00:10:03,900 Caroline Cadwell: up your phone or if it's an automatic behavior. 201 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,650 Todd Bishop: We are talking with Caroline Cadwell. She is the co- 202 00:10:07,650 --> 00:10:10,740 Todd Bishop: founder and CEO of Unpluq, which is a recent graduate 203 00:10:10,740 --> 00:10:14,250 Todd Bishop: of the Techstars Seattle Accelerator Program. Caroline, let's take a 204 00:10:14,250 --> 00:10:15,839 Todd Bishop: quick break and then when we come back, I want 205 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,179 Todd Bishop: to talk a little bit more about my experience and 206 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,450 Todd Bishop: how I've been using Unpluq to help myself in my 207 00:10:21,450 --> 00:10:25,050 Todd Bishop: own elements of distraction. We'll be right back. You're listening 208 00:10:25,050 --> 00:10:31,920 Todd Bishop: to GeekWire. Welcome back to GeekWire. I'm Todd Bishop. We're 209 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,130 Todd Bishop: talking this week with Caroline Cadwell, the CEO of Unpluq, 210 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,960 Todd Bishop: a recent graduate of the Techstars Seattle Accelerator Program. They 211 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:41,910 Todd Bishop: make an app and a key chain tag that helps 212 00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:45,090 Todd Bishop: people be more conscious about how they use smartphones and 213 00:10:45,090 --> 00:10:49,350 Todd Bishop: especially social media apps on those phones. There is an 214 00:10:49,350 --> 00:10:52,110 Todd Bishop: Android app that's already out there. Coming soon there will 215 00:10:52,110 --> 00:10:55,020 Todd Bishop: be an iPhone app as well. As I mentioned, Caroline, 216 00:10:55,020 --> 00:10:57,720 Todd Bishop: I've been using this, you were kind enough to loan 217 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:02,070 Todd Bishop: me key fob, an Unpluq tag, it's an NFC tag 218 00:11:02,130 --> 00:11:04,410 Todd Bishop: and I've got it here on my keychain, which I 219 00:11:04,410 --> 00:11:07,679 Todd Bishop: have handy. And it's a yellow tag with the Unpluq 220 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,300 Todd Bishop: logo. And to your point, my big thing has been 221 00:11:12,660 --> 00:11:15,660 Todd Bishop: I would find myself... My daughter makes fun of me 222 00:11:15,660 --> 00:11:18,720 Todd Bishop: for calling them YouTube shorts. She calls them TikToks in 223 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,630 Todd Bishop: the generic no matter where they are. But anyway, these 224 00:11:21,870 --> 00:11:26,850 Todd Bishop: short videos, and for me, the YouTube algorithm is wicked 225 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,210 Todd Bishop: because I've been using YouTube for years and years to 226 00:11:30,210 --> 00:11:34,679 Todd Bishop: watch long- form videos, logged in my personal account. It 227 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,250 Todd Bishop: knows me, I think, better than I know myself sometimes 228 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,030 Todd Bishop: in ways that are positive and frankly not very positive 229 00:11:42,030 --> 00:11:46,679 Todd Bishop: and it knows how to suck me in and keep 230 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,650 Todd Bishop: me there. And the short form just holds me. And 231 00:11:49,740 --> 00:11:52,470 Todd Bishop: I would get into situations, I think I mentioned earlier, 232 00:11:52,620 --> 00:11:55,350 Todd Bishop: where an hour and a half later I'd wonder what 233 00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:59,040 Todd Bishop: I'd been doing with my life. And just last night 234 00:11:59,190 --> 00:12:01,770 Todd Bishop: I was in one of those situations, I took my 235 00:12:01,830 --> 00:12:05,819 Todd Bishop: smartphone into my bedroom and I was, in my mind, " 236 00:12:05,820 --> 00:12:07,410 Todd Bishop: I'm just going to listen to a podcast while I 237 00:12:07,410 --> 00:12:09,900 Todd Bishop: drift off to sleep." And then I was like, " Oh, 238 00:12:09,900 --> 00:12:12,150 Todd Bishop: wait a second. I wanted to watch that guitar video." 239 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,940 Todd Bishop: And so then I went on to YouTube on my 240 00:12:14,940 --> 00:12:18,059 Todd Bishop: phone and there it was. I had set a schedule called 241 00:12:18,059 --> 00:12:22,650 Todd Bishop: Sleep Plus Family in Unpluq, and it stopped me from getting 242 00:12:22,650 --> 00:12:26,670 Todd Bishop: into YouTube. There was a barrier there. And to unlock 243 00:12:26,670 --> 00:12:29,850 Todd Bishop: it, I would've had to have stood up, gone out 244 00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:33,689 Todd Bishop: into the living room, gotten my keys. And so just 245 00:12:33,690 --> 00:12:37,020 Todd Bishop: that amount of effort, physical effort blocked me in that 246 00:12:37,020 --> 00:12:38,970 Todd Bishop: case. But to your point, even if it was across 247 00:12:38,970 --> 00:12:42,420 Todd Bishop: the room, I think that psychological friction would've stopped it. 248 00:12:43,110 --> 00:12:45,689 Todd Bishop: And as I was saying earlier, the thing that shocked 249 00:12:45,690 --> 00:12:48,030 Todd Bishop: me about it is that I need this. I mean, 250 00:12:48,059 --> 00:12:52,080 Todd Bishop: I'm a human, I make executive decisions both literal and 251 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,750 Todd Bishop: figurative, and I feel like I should be in more 252 00:12:54,750 --> 00:12:57,990 Todd Bishop: control of my life. And I guess I'm just astonished. 253 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:00,450 Todd Bishop: I mean, I've read the stories, I've read the studies. 254 00:13:00,450 --> 00:13:02,970 Todd Bishop: I guess I've just been astonished at how powerless I 255 00:13:02,970 --> 00:13:06,570 Todd Bishop: am to these apps. So that's been my experience based 256 00:13:06,570 --> 00:13:08,160 Todd Bishop: on what I've been able to try. 257 00:13:08,550 --> 00:13:11,309 Caroline Cadwell: Thank you so much for giving it a chance and 258 00:13:11,309 --> 00:13:14,580 Caroline Cadwell: being curious. You have a little bit of a different 259 00:13:14,580 --> 00:13:18,690 Caroline Cadwell: story entering to using it than I'd say our typical 260 00:13:18,690 --> 00:13:21,689 Caroline Cadwell: customer, but that's great because we'd love to help more 261 00:13:21,690 --> 00:13:24,990 Caroline Cadwell: people and if you help people who have similar life 262 00:13:24,990 --> 00:13:27,209 Caroline Cadwell: to you maybe that work and have a kid, which 263 00:13:27,210 --> 00:13:30,240 Caroline Cadwell: is a lot of people, maybe we can help them 264 00:13:30,660 --> 00:13:32,400 Caroline Cadwell: get a benefit out of it too. I would be 265 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,309 Caroline Cadwell: curious, Todd, what have you filled your time with that 266 00:13:35,309 --> 00:13:36,330 Caroline Cadwell: you've recovered? 267 00:13:36,330 --> 00:13:40,679 Todd Bishop: I don't know if this is a victory or simply 268 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:45,179 Todd Bishop: a shifting of my time, but I have been reading. 269 00:13:45,390 --> 00:13:48,179 Todd Bishop: I've been reading on a Kindle tablet and a remarkable 270 00:13:48,210 --> 00:13:51,720 Todd Bishop: tablet. I mean, I'm the quintessential tech nerd here and 271 00:13:52,140 --> 00:13:54,179 Todd Bishop: a lot of times during the day, the way that 272 00:13:54,179 --> 00:14:00,209 Todd Bishop: I route my distraction is using plugins in my browser 273 00:14:00,210 --> 00:14:03,900 Todd Bishop: where if I encounter a story that I don't just 274 00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:06,329 Todd Bishop: want to skim and that I don't want to allow 275 00:14:06,510 --> 00:14:09,000 Todd Bishop: to distract me from work for the 15 minutes that 276 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,609 Todd Bishop: it would require to really focus on it, I just 277 00:14:11,610 --> 00:14:12,929 Todd Bishop: hit a button and it sends it to one of 278 00:14:12,929 --> 00:14:15,840 Todd Bishop: my tablets, either the Kindle or the Remarkable. And then 279 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,420 Todd Bishop: at night I'll often read those stories in bed. I 280 00:14:18,420 --> 00:14:22,200 Todd Bishop: love the Wall Street Journal PDF, I download that to 281 00:14:22,410 --> 00:14:27,870 Todd Bishop: the Kindle as well. And frankly just books, books on 282 00:14:27,870 --> 00:14:31,680 Todd Bishop: the Kindle. And that kind of reading to me seems 283 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,400 Todd Bishop: not to trigger whatever goes on in my brain when 284 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,210 Todd Bishop: I'm watching videos. And I realize you're not a psychologist, 285 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,130 Todd Bishop: but I mean, am I on the right track? 286 00:14:41,730 --> 00:14:45,660 Caroline Cadwell: That's so interesting. There have been a number of studies done 287 00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:49,140 Caroline Cadwell: around the idea of executive attention, which you brought up 288 00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:53,490 Caroline Cadwell: as well. You make executive decisions. That's what makes us 289 00:14:53,580 --> 00:14:59,310 Caroline Cadwell: distinct from other mammals is this ability to focus on 290 00:14:59,370 --> 00:15:02,730 Caroline Cadwell: a singular task for 30 minutes or more. That is 291 00:15:02,730 --> 00:15:07,380 Caroline Cadwell: what executive attention is. And one of the things that 292 00:15:07,380 --> 00:15:14,310 Caroline Cadwell: is most effective in restoring and exercising executive attention is 293 00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:20,609 Caroline Cadwell: reading a book. So even though we have this deterioration 294 00:15:20,670 --> 00:15:23,400 Caroline Cadwell: of our executive attention by short form content like ten 295 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,030 Caroline Cadwell: second videos, which there's a lot of information showing that 296 00:15:27,030 --> 00:15:29,670 Caroline Cadwell: that does kind of wear away our ability to focus 297 00:15:29,670 --> 00:15:33,990 Caroline Cadwell: on a singular task and be distracted, you can start 298 00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:37,980 Caroline Cadwell: recovering that executive attention by reading a book. And this 299 00:15:37,980 --> 00:15:39,960 Caroline Cadwell: is something I actually have to give credit. I learned 300 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,110 Caroline Cadwell: this from a woman named... I'm going to mess up 301 00:15:43,110 --> 00:15:46,290 Caroline Cadwell: her name. Her name is Anastasia, and she is from 302 00:15:46,410 --> 00:15:48,930 Caroline Cadwell: a company called Consciously Digital, which is based in the 303 00:15:48,930 --> 00:15:52,770 Caroline Cadwell: UK. And they do coaching and they do awareness for 304 00:15:52,770 --> 00:15:56,490 Caroline Cadwell: companies around digital distraction. They don't sell any products, it's 305 00:15:56,490 --> 00:15:59,700 Caroline Cadwell: totally a coaching. But she used to do some public 306 00:15:59,790 --> 00:16:03,390 Caroline Cadwell: talks, and I've gone to some of them years ago 307 00:16:03,870 --> 00:16:07,560 Caroline Cadwell: and she talked about how to restore your executive attention 308 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,440 Caroline Cadwell: you can read just even a page of a book, 309 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:11,729 Caroline Cadwell: start with a page of a book a day. 310 00:16:12,390 --> 00:16:14,910 Todd Bishop: About two weeks ago, a friend of mine, a former 311 00:16:14,910 --> 00:16:18,300 Todd Bishop: colleague at the newspaper in Seattle, recommended a book that 312 00:16:18,300 --> 00:16:19,980 Todd Bishop: he knew that I would love. It was called Bad 313 00:16:19,980 --> 00:16:22,890 Todd Bishop: City Peril and Power in the City of Angels about 314 00:16:22,890 --> 00:16:26,970 Todd Bishop: how this Los Angeles Times reporter uncovered a scandal at 315 00:16:26,970 --> 00:16:31,890 Todd Bishop: the USC medical school. So I had not read a 316 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,850 Todd Bishop: book in a weekend probably since I was in college, 317 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,200 Todd Bishop: and that's what I did. And granted, I think it 318 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,050 Todd Bishop: was a confluence of events. I think that book was 319 00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:46,410 Todd Bishop: one that I was just inclined to tear through. But 320 00:16:46,410 --> 00:16:50,490 Todd Bishop: also I was not watching YouTube because I've got my 321 00:16:50,490 --> 00:16:55,080 Todd Bishop: weekend schedule set. And granted the intention of that was 322 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,150 Todd Bishop: to spend more time with family, but on that weekend 323 00:16:57,150 --> 00:16:58,800 Todd Bishop: at least it was to spend more time with the book. 324 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,760 Todd Bishop: So I felt like my blood pressure went down. It's 325 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,429 Todd Bishop: just amazing to me how one small thing can do 326 00:17:05,430 --> 00:17:09,960 Todd Bishop: it. Now you've got this app, and I know that 327 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,260 Todd Bishop: to use the key tag you need the premium version. 328 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:18,510 Caroline Cadwell: There is a free version of Unpluq, which you will save 329 00:17:18,510 --> 00:17:21,359 Caroline Cadwell: time with. So on average, our free version users who 330 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,750 Caroline Cadwell: can only have one schedule and block two apps, they 331 00:17:24,750 --> 00:17:27,480 Caroline Cadwell: save 35 minutes a day. So it's enough to prepare 332 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,659 Caroline Cadwell: a healthy meal or do homework with your kids or 333 00:17:31,140 --> 00:17:33,419 Caroline Cadwell: work out. Our favorite excuse for not working out, " I 334 00:17:33,420 --> 00:17:37,950 Caroline Cadwell: just didn't have time." So it will do that. Our 335 00:17:37,950 --> 00:17:41,040 Caroline Cadwell: premium version, which there's also a free trial for, you 336 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,020 Caroline Cadwell: can have as many schedules as you like and block 337 00:17:43,020 --> 00:17:44,940 Caroline Cadwell: as many apps as you'd like. And we have more 338 00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:48,600 Caroline Cadwell: what we call barriers, app barriers. And so those app 339 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,840 Caroline Cadwell: barriers, that's how you have to take steps to override 340 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,030 Caroline Cadwell: them in order to open your blocked app so you're 341 00:17:54,030 --> 00:17:56,550 Caroline Cadwell: not totally locked out, as I mentioned earlier. You can 342 00:17:56,550 --> 00:17:59,159 Caroline Cadwell: access them, but you have to make a conscious choice 343 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,979 Caroline Cadwell: about it. And with the premium version, you can do 344 00:18:01,980 --> 00:18:04,800 Caroline Cadwell: things like on our Android app, you can take a 345 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:10,440 Caroline Cadwell: walk in order to open your kryptonite, you can scan 346 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,960 Caroline Cadwell: a QR code and you can use the Unpluq tag, 347 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,240 Caroline Cadwell: which is our most effective barrier. So people who are 348 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,780 Caroline Cadwell: on the premium version are saving about an hour, about 349 00:18:18,810 --> 00:18:23,490 Caroline Cadwell: 50, 54 minutes a day, and they're recovering that time 350 00:18:23,490 --> 00:18:25,920 Caroline Cadwell: to use in other ways. And I saw you smiling 351 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,609 Caroline Cadwell: as you described reading your book, so I assume it's 352 00:18:29,609 --> 00:18:32,909 Caroline Cadwell: been a good thing. And then for the tag users, 353 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,720 Caroline Cadwell: they save 78 minutes a day on average. And if 354 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:38,910 Caroline Cadwell: your screen time is particularly high when you start, you 355 00:18:38,910 --> 00:18:41,790 Caroline Cadwell: will save much more than that. And particularly high, we 356 00:18:41,790 --> 00:18:44,280 Caroline Cadwell: should maybe talk about norms here, particularly high screen time 357 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,619 Caroline Cadwell: would be right now kind of over five and a 358 00:18:46,619 --> 00:18:48,060 Caroline Cadwell: half hours a day. 359 00:18:48,869 --> 00:18:48,991 Todd Bishop: On a phone. 360 00:18:48,991 --> 00:18:50,610 Caroline Cadwell: On a phone. It's pretty common. 361 00:18:50,910 --> 00:18:51,359 Todd Bishop: Now, see- 362 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:52,411 Caroline Cadwell: It's quite common. 363 00:18:52,411 --> 00:18:57,000 Todd Bishop: I can see that. And the problem is that many of us 364 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,680 Todd Bishop: are already spending more time than that on big screens. 365 00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:05,850 Todd Bishop: And so you're basically shifting it to a small screen. 366 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,859 Todd Bishop: And now here's where I feel a little bit guilty 367 00:19:07,859 --> 00:19:10,920 Todd Bishop: because I'm shifting my reading to a screen as well, 368 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,310 Todd Bishop: although it is at least front lit on the Kindle 369 00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:15,960 Todd Bishop: and it's long form and it doesn't have all the 370 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,770 Todd Bishop: distractions. So I guess I'll justify that away. But here 371 00:19:19,770 --> 00:19:23,490 Todd Bishop: you are spending that much more time on a phone 372 00:19:23,490 --> 00:19:25,320 Todd Bishop: and I can see it because you're sitting on your couch 373 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:26,940 Todd Bishop: doing it for the most part. 374 00:19:27,780 --> 00:19:28,440 Caroline Cadwell: Or while you eat. 375 00:19:28,859 --> 00:19:33,090 Todd Bishop: Oh yeah, that's true. What I like is a few 376 00:19:33,090 --> 00:19:36,659 Todd Bishop: times you've said the barriers have you take steps. And 377 00:19:36,690 --> 00:19:38,970 Todd Bishop: in the Android app right now, it's literally steps. That's 378 00:19:38,970 --> 00:19:41,730 Todd Bishop: one option. As you can walk around... I tried this 379 00:19:41,730 --> 00:19:43,590 Todd Bishop: last week. It's not like you have to walk around 380 00:19:43,590 --> 00:19:45,780 Todd Bishop: the neighborhood. I was able to walk back and forth 381 00:19:45,780 --> 00:19:48,390 Todd Bishop: up the hallway a couple times and I was able 382 00:19:48,390 --> 00:19:52,050 Todd Bishop: to break the barrier, although the steps are adjustable, right? 383 00:19:52,830 --> 00:19:55,409 Caroline Cadwell: So all of our distraction barriers, with the exception of 384 00:19:55,410 --> 00:19:58,650 Caroline Cadwell: the physical Unpluq tag, you can adjust how difficult they 385 00:19:58,650 --> 00:20:02,310 Caroline Cadwell: are. So one of them, for example, is to tap 386 00:20:02,310 --> 00:20:04,560 Caroline Cadwell: a series of random buttons that light up and you 387 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:09,180 Caroline Cadwell: can change that from seven or 13 or 70 steps 388 00:20:09,180 --> 00:20:10,830 Caroline Cadwell: that you have to follow in order to get it 389 00:20:10,830 --> 00:20:13,470 Caroline Cadwell: open. So it's about how much time you want it 390 00:20:13,470 --> 00:20:18,270 Caroline Cadwell: to take to get into your addictive app and how 391 00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:19,770 Caroline Cadwell: strong you want that to be. And then you also 392 00:20:19,770 --> 00:20:23,369 Caroline Cadwell: can lock those schedules down by having someone set a 393 00:20:23,369 --> 00:20:26,669 Caroline Cadwell: password for you. So you can't change them if you're 394 00:20:26,670 --> 00:20:29,910 Caroline Cadwell: particularly prone to it. But for most people, just having 395 00:20:29,910 --> 00:20:31,800 Caroline Cadwell: it set up in the first place is enough of 396 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:32,310 Caroline Cadwell: a deterrent. 397 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,580 Todd Bishop: That's the equivalent of handing your keys to the bartender 398 00:20:35,580 --> 00:20:36,450 Todd Bishop: when you walk into the bar. 399 00:20:39,810 --> 00:20:40,291 Caroline Cadwell: Got to pick who you trust. 400 00:20:40,291 --> 00:20:46,229 Todd Bishop: Oh, this is fascinating. All right, I want to take 401 00:20:46,230 --> 00:20:48,449 Todd Bishop: one more break and we'll be right back with some 402 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,750 Todd Bishop: bigger picture thoughts on these issues and how they're impacting 403 00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:55,200 Todd Bishop: society. You're listening to GeekWire and we'll be right back. 404 00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:02,490 Todd Bishop: Welcome back. It's Todd Bishop. You're listening to GeekWire. And 405 00:21:02,490 --> 00:21:06,150 Todd Bishop: our guest this week is Caroline Cadwell. She is the co- 406 00:21:06,150 --> 00:21:10,619 Todd Bishop: founder and CEO of Unpluq, that's U- N- P- L- U- 407 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,590 Todd Bishop: Q. It is a company that just graduated from the 408 00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:18,030 Todd Bishop: Techstars Seattle Accelerator program. They offer an app and a 409 00:21:18,030 --> 00:21:20,940 Todd Bishop: premium version with a key tag that makes you more 410 00:21:20,940 --> 00:21:24,390 Todd Bishop: conscious about the use of your smartphone and the apps 411 00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:27,389 Todd Bishop: that you might be addicted to on that smartphone. Caroline, 412 00:21:27,390 --> 00:21:31,380 Todd Bishop: we've talked a little bit about the bigger picture issues, 413 00:21:31,380 --> 00:21:34,440 Todd Bishop: but I'm curious, where do you see all of this going? 414 00:21:34,740 --> 00:21:37,169 Todd Bishop: It feels like we're in a competition, almost a war. 415 00:21:37,290 --> 00:21:39,480 Todd Bishop: I think journalists use the word war too much, but 416 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,590 Todd Bishop: it almost seems appropriate here between ourselves and our humanity 417 00:21:43,830 --> 00:21:46,950 Todd Bishop: and technology. Where do you see all of this going? 418 00:21:47,790 --> 00:21:49,680 Caroline Cadwell: Wow, I have so many things running through my head 419 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,760 Caroline Cadwell: now. It's a big question that you're asking, but one 420 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,880 Caroline Cadwell: voice, one person in commenting on this. So please take 421 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,469 Caroline Cadwell: it in this context. What I'm going to say, it's 422 00:21:58,470 --> 00:22:03,930 Caroline Cadwell: my personal thoughts. I think we're at a point where 423 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,859 Caroline Cadwell: we have a lot of crossroads as a society and as 424 00:22:07,859 --> 00:22:10,020 Caroline Cadwell: a world. There are a lot of decisions that we 425 00:22:10,020 --> 00:22:13,290 Caroline Cadwell: can be making that in some cases have to do 426 00:22:13,290 --> 00:22:17,909 Caroline Cadwell: with just being an existing that have become politicized and 427 00:22:17,910 --> 00:22:24,450 Caroline Cadwell: have become part of a bigger culture clash. And I 428 00:22:24,450 --> 00:22:27,390 Caroline Cadwell: think that in terms of how screens play into that, 429 00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:32,550 Caroline Cadwell: I don't think it has to be tech versus people. 430 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,000 Caroline Cadwell: And there are some companies that are really besides Unpluq, 431 00:22:36,030 --> 00:22:40,560 Caroline Cadwell: that are really trying to help people live in harmony 432 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,900 Caroline Cadwell: with the tech that's in their lives. So in our 433 00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:45,240 Caroline Cadwell: case, we're help trying to help people make conscious choices 434 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,790 Caroline Cadwell: about how you interact with tech that's in your daily 435 00:22:47,790 --> 00:22:50,010 Caroline Cadwell: lives. And we're starting with mobile, but you can imagine 436 00:22:50,310 --> 00:22:52,050 Caroline Cadwell: as ten years ago, the first thing we did every 437 00:22:52,050 --> 00:22:53,940 Caroline Cadwell: morning was very different than it's today that in ten 438 00:22:53,940 --> 00:22:57,690 Caroline Cadwell: more years, that will also still look different more. And 439 00:22:57,690 --> 00:22:59,970 Caroline Cadwell: so if we think about the bigger picture of how 440 00:22:59,970 --> 00:23:02,520 Caroline Cadwell: things are changing and this us versus them, which I 441 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,500 Caroline Cadwell: also see reflected in a lot of other parts of 442 00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:06,960 Caroline Cadwell: our society as it's changed over the last five or 443 00:23:06,990 --> 00:23:10,739 Caroline Cadwell: six years, I think that what becomes really apparent is 444 00:23:10,740 --> 00:23:15,000 Caroline Cadwell: that we have a choice to stand up for ourselves 445 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:21,449 Caroline Cadwell: and make choices that support our wellbeing and industry will 446 00:23:21,450 --> 00:23:27,510 Caroline Cadwell: follow is my assumption. I think that if people are saying, " 447 00:23:27,540 --> 00:23:30,419 Caroline Cadwell: Enough is enough, we want tech to be responsible for 448 00:23:30,420 --> 00:23:32,460 Caroline Cadwell: paying for mental health care for our children in school 449 00:23:32,460 --> 00:23:38,399 Caroline Cadwell: districts," then tech will adjust and maybe they decide to 450 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,110 Caroline Cadwell: provide Unpluq to those students as part of their solution 451 00:23:43,770 --> 00:23:48,810 Caroline Cadwell: to the harm that unfortunately the technology causes. We can't 452 00:23:48,810 --> 00:23:52,590 Caroline Cadwell: be one- sided about this and not recognize that also 453 00:23:53,340 --> 00:23:57,060 Caroline Cadwell: access to that technology has fundamentally changed the pace at 454 00:23:57,060 --> 00:23:58,830 Caroline Cadwell: which we're able to innovate, the pace at which we're 455 00:23:58,830 --> 00:24:01,260 Caroline Cadwell: able to solve problems the way that we're able to 456 00:24:01,260 --> 00:24:06,150 Caroline Cadwell: communicate and a lot of other really great things. And so I think it's important to stop 457 00:24:06,150 --> 00:24:11,340 Caroline Cadwell: thinking about things as us versus them or that we're 458 00:24:11,340 --> 00:24:15,150 Caroline Cadwell: on different battle sides, but instead just make more conscious 459 00:24:15,150 --> 00:24:18,150 Caroline Cadwell: choices about what's important to us and what we want 460 00:24:18,150 --> 00:24:19,440 Caroline Cadwell: our lives to look like. And I think a lot 461 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,300 Caroline Cadwell: of people have the chance to reflect on that through 462 00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:23,220 Caroline Cadwell: the pandemic. And I hope that we're able to keep 463 00:24:23,220 --> 00:24:27,480 Caroline Cadwell: up that momentum of redefining what a good, healthy, meaningful 464 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,690 Caroline Cadwell: life looks like. And I think that commerce and tech 465 00:24:30,690 --> 00:24:33,869 Caroline Cadwell: and all the other parts of that will follow when 466 00:24:33,869 --> 00:24:37,590 Caroline Cadwell: it becomes profitable to meet customers where they want to 467 00:24:37,590 --> 00:24:37,980 Caroline Cadwell: be met. 468 00:24:38,490 --> 00:24:41,609 Todd Bishop: When you look at the new era of artificial intelligence, 469 00:24:41,609 --> 00:24:45,119 Todd Bishop: these powerful new technologies that I've been talking to lots 470 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,489 Todd Bishop: of people about lately and we've all been experiencing in 471 00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:50,790 Todd Bishop: one form or another, do you see opportunity or a 472 00:24:50,790 --> 00:24:53,760 Todd Bishop: threat in the context of what we're talking about right now? 473 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,909 Caroline Cadwell: I definitely think there's opportunity, but I do find it 474 00:24:56,910 --> 00:25:01,530 Caroline Cadwell: terrifying that some very big smart names in tech are 475 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,590 Caroline Cadwell: calling for a pause to development while we figure out 476 00:25:04,770 --> 00:25:08,100 Caroline Cadwell: the ethics behind AI. And in fact, there have been 477 00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:11,490 Caroline Cadwell: commissions looking into the ethics of computing and AI for 478 00:25:11,490 --> 00:25:14,880 Caroline Cadwell: many, many years. They just haven't been top of mind 479 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,030 Caroline Cadwell: or news. I do think there's danger there, but I 480 00:25:18,030 --> 00:25:22,260 Caroline Cadwell: think the bigger thing is opportunity. I had ChatGPT edit 481 00:25:22,260 --> 00:25:25,470 Caroline Cadwell: my press release to reduce it for content for our 482 00:25:25,470 --> 00:25:30,419 Caroline Cadwell: upcoming iPhone release. It was great. It was lovely, and 483 00:25:30,420 --> 00:25:32,760 Caroline Cadwell: it can do so much more than that, but I 484 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,790 Caroline Cadwell: think we have to think about, it requires a complete 485 00:25:35,790 --> 00:25:41,760 Caroline Cadwell: brain shift about what is work, how to delegate, and 486 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,660 Caroline Cadwell: it puts, I think, an amazing opportunity actually for journalists 487 00:25:45,660 --> 00:25:50,850 Caroline Cadwell: because it can't write without new input. Who is going 488 00:25:50,850 --> 00:25:53,490 Caroline Cadwell: to discover the new input and put it in a 489 00:25:53,490 --> 00:25:57,119 Caroline Cadwell: format that AI can consume? Who is going to ask 490 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,290 Caroline Cadwell: the new questions and discover the links between seemingly unrelated 491 00:26:01,290 --> 00:26:06,300 Caroline Cadwell: things? And I think that takes (foreign language) that will 492 00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:09,810 Caroline Cadwell: be, I might regret saying this, but I think impossible. 493 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,480 Caroline Cadwell: I think there are some things about humans that are 494 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,500 Caroline Cadwell: not reputable, and those are the things where we'll have 495 00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:20,550 Caroline Cadwell: to shift how we work and what humans are responsible 496 00:26:20,550 --> 00:26:24,989 Caroline Cadwell: for. And thinking about that, I mean, don't think I've 497 00:26:24,990 --> 00:26:27,750 Caroline Cadwell: reached the point where my mind is totally blown and 498 00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:29,670 Caroline Cadwell: adjusted yet. Every day I kind of think of a 499 00:26:29,670 --> 00:26:32,820 Caroline Cadwell: new way I could use that technology and I'm by 500 00:26:32,820 --> 00:26:36,840 Caroline Cadwell: no means involved in it on a daily basis, but it really 501 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,390 Caroline Cadwell: requires a complete shift of mind to think about how 502 00:26:39,390 --> 00:26:41,340 Caroline Cadwell: it could be used because we have all these self, 503 00:26:41,340 --> 00:26:43,620 Caroline Cadwell: especially if you're older. You have all these self- limiting 504 00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:46,949 Caroline Cadwell: ideas that you don't realize are even there about how 505 00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:49,409 Caroline Cadwell: you process things or what is possible, and you have 506 00:26:49,410 --> 00:26:51,570 Caroline Cadwell: to blow way past what is possible to think about 507 00:26:51,570 --> 00:26:52,200 Caroline Cadwell: how it could help. 508 00:26:53,340 --> 00:26:57,000 Todd Bishop: To me, this is all tied together by the concept 509 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,340 Todd Bishop: of being more conscious of the situations we're in, conceptually 510 00:27:02,430 --> 00:27:05,430 Todd Bishop: stepping outside of them and looking back in almost like 511 00:27:05,430 --> 00:27:10,080 Todd Bishop: that therapeutic approach of watching the thinker when you're in 512 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,629 Todd Bishop: a situation that might be spinning out of control in 513 00:27:12,630 --> 00:27:16,020 Todd Bishop: your own mind, just stopping and trying to look objectively 514 00:27:16,020 --> 00:27:18,629 Todd Bishop: at the situation. And you're also, through Unpluq, helping people 515 00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:22,320 Todd Bishop: do that for themselves in terms of their experience and 516 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,210 Todd Bishop: their existence inside their phones. 517 00:27:24,869 --> 00:27:29,370 Caroline Cadwell: It's good to experience reality firsthand, if you can. 518 00:27:30,510 --> 00:27:32,280 Todd Bishop: Maybe that should be your motto, because I think your 519 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:33,390 Todd Bishop: motto... What is your motto? 520 00:27:35,010 --> 00:27:35,520 Caroline Cadwell: Off your screen, into your life. 521 00:27:36,090 --> 00:27:39,000 Todd Bishop: You've had your Android version out for a while of 522 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,070 Todd Bishop: Unpluq and now you're going to be coming out with 523 00:27:41,070 --> 00:27:44,909 Todd Bishop: your iPhone version. What's next for the company beyond that? 524 00:27:44,940 --> 00:27:48,000 Todd Bishop: And if you could have the impact that you would 525 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,630 Todd Bishop: want to have on society, on people over the next 526 00:27:51,630 --> 00:27:54,240 Todd Bishop: two to three years, what would this look like? What's 527 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,090 Todd Bishop: your ideal scenario as you look ahead? 528 00:27:57,900 --> 00:28:00,419 Caroline Cadwell: You know that feeling you get at the end of 529 00:28:00,420 --> 00:28:02,730 Caroline Cadwell: a really good disconnected day, like you went on a 530 00:28:02,730 --> 00:28:05,580 Caroline Cadwell: hike and you feel really satisfied at the end of 531 00:28:05,580 --> 00:28:08,460 Caroline Cadwell: that? Seattle has so many beautiful hiking trails. I think 532 00:28:08,460 --> 00:28:10,050 Caroline Cadwell: a lot of people will be able to relate to this. 533 00:28:10,770 --> 00:28:13,800 Caroline Cadwell: So I want people to feel like that most of 534 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,530 Caroline Cadwell: the time. I would love for people to have the 535 00:28:16,530 --> 00:28:19,440 Caroline Cadwell: opportunity to feel like that most of the time and 536 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,119 Caroline Cadwell: still be able to provide for their families and do 537 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,850 Caroline Cadwell: the work they need to do involving screens and enjoy 538 00:28:23,850 --> 00:28:26,820 Caroline Cadwell: being connected to people who are further away that they're 539 00:28:26,820 --> 00:28:29,790 Caroline Cadwell: connected to on TikTok, that's fine. But I would love 540 00:28:29,790 --> 00:28:32,159 Caroline Cadwell: for people to be able to make conscious choices rather 541 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,430 Caroline Cadwell: than automatic ones about how they interact with whatever technologies 542 00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:38,250 Caroline Cadwell: in their lives. Right now, it's mobile phones and laptops. 543 00:28:38,250 --> 00:28:40,440 Caroline Cadwell: It could be very different five, ten years from now 544 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,590 Caroline Cadwell: and Unpluq wants to be their help you make a 545 00:28:43,590 --> 00:28:47,070 Caroline Cadwell: conscious choice and just support your own goals and decision 546 00:28:47,070 --> 00:28:48,570 Caroline Cadwell: making when it comes to tech. 547 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,530 Todd Bishop: Caroline Cadwell from Unpluq. Thank you very much for joining us. 548 00:28:52,890 --> 00:28:54,870 Caroline Cadwell: It's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me, Todd. 549 00:28:55,290 --> 00:28:58,800 Todd Bishop: Thanks for listening to the GeekWire podcast. Kurt Milton produces 550 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,700 Todd Bishop: and edits our show, Daniel LK Caldwell composed and performed 551 00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:05,220 Todd Bishop: our theme music. You can see the show notes for 552 00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:09,330 Todd Bishop: links to articles and other information about everything we discussed. 553 00:29:09,750 --> 00:29:12,690 Todd Bishop: I'm GeekWire co- founder Todd Bishop. We'll be back next 554 00:29:12,690 --> 00:29:15,750 Todd Bishop: week with a new episode of the GeekWire Podcast.