1 00:00:01,050 --> 00:00:04,050 Emily Cunningham: We are here because we want to build a better 2 00:00:04,050 --> 00:00:07,470 Emily Cunningham: Amazon. Who wants to build a better Amazon? 3 00:00:10,110 --> 00:00:13,109 Todd Bishop: Hundreds of Amazon employees walked out of the office in 4 00:00:13,110 --> 00:00:17,189 Todd Bishop: Seattle this week, gathering in between the company's headquarters towers 5 00:00:17,190 --> 00:00:21,690 Todd Bishop: while holding signs, participating in chants and listening to speakers 6 00:00:21,780 --> 00:00:23,910 Todd Bishop: urge the tech giant to do better. 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,210 Speaker 2: Let's make our voices heard by Andy Jassy and the S- 8 00:00:27,809 --> 00:00:28,951 Speaker 2: team. This is our world. 9 00:00:28,951 --> 00:00:28,952 Crowd: This is our world. 10 00:00:28,952 --> 00:00:28,953 Speaker 2: This is our company. 11 00:00:28,953 --> 00:00:34,469 Amazon employee: This is our company. 12 00:00:36,989 --> 00:00:39,119 Speaker 2: I'm so proud of all of us. Yes. 13 00:00:39,450 --> 00:00:42,269 Todd Bishop: It was part of a global walkout that organizers said 14 00:00:42,269 --> 00:00:46,860 Todd Bishop: drew participation from more than 2, 000 Amazon employees worldwide. 15 00:00:46,950 --> 00:00:49,259 Todd Bishop: So why did they walk out and what do they 16 00:00:49,259 --> 00:00:52,500 Todd Bishop: hope to accomplish? On this episode of the GeekWire Podcast, 17 00:00:52,500 --> 00:00:55,980 Todd Bishop: we hear from Amazon employees in the crowd and speakers 18 00:00:55,980 --> 00:00:59,490 Todd Bishop: at the podium. We explain the company's perspective and we 19 00:00:59,490 --> 00:01:03,390 Todd Bishop: put the walkout in the larger context of tectonic shifts 20 00:01:03,690 --> 00:01:12,208 Todd Bishop: taking place in the tech industry. Welcome to GeekWire. I'm 21 00:01:12,209 --> 00:01:14,699 Todd Bishop: GeekWire co- founder Todd Bishop, and I'm here with Kurt 22 00:01:14,700 --> 00:01:17,100 Todd Bishop: Schlosser, GeekWire reporter. It's great to see you, Kurt. 23 00:01:17,370 --> 00:01:18,568 Kurt Schlosser: Hi Todd, good to be back. 24 00:01:19,110 --> 00:01:21,780 Todd Bishop: You had some adventures this week. You went down to 25 00:01:21,780 --> 00:01:25,289 Todd Bishop: the Amazon campus, and when you've been in the past 26 00:01:25,380 --> 00:01:28,649 Todd Bishop: to try and find Amazon employees to talk with just 27 00:01:28,740 --> 00:01:31,860 Todd Bishop: randomly approaching people on the street, it's often difficult to 28 00:01:31,860 --> 00:01:36,120 Todd Bishop: get Amazon employees to talk. This time was very different. 29 00:01:36,810 --> 00:01:39,659 Todd Bishop: In some ways, at least, certain Amazon employees had a 30 00:01:39,660 --> 00:01:43,800 Todd Bishop: lot to say. This was the walkout that had been planned, 31 00:01:43,830 --> 00:01:47,340 Todd Bishop: a demonstration urging the company to take boulder action on 32 00:01:47,340 --> 00:01:51,030 Todd Bishop: the climate, and also to reconsider its return to office policies. 33 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:53,850 Todd Bishop: Give us a sense for what you saw and heard 34 00:01:53,850 --> 00:01:57,270 Todd Bishop: down at Amazon HQ outside the S pheres this week. 35 00:01:57,870 --> 00:02:00,000 Kurt Schlosser: Yeah, Todd, there was quite a bit of talking. There 36 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,709 Kurt Schlosser: was chanting, there was some clapping, yelling, a lot of 37 00:02:04,709 --> 00:02:08,820 Kurt Schlosser: fired up people. We estimated a few hundred walked out 38 00:02:08,820 --> 00:02:11,310 Kurt Schlosser: at the noontime hour on the plaza there by the 39 00:02:11,310 --> 00:02:15,330 Kurt Schlosser: spheres next to the Day 1 headquarters tower. Sun came 40 00:02:15,330 --> 00:02:18,599 Kurt Schlosser: out and people were distracted from getting lunch for a 41 00:02:18,599 --> 00:02:21,929 Kurt Schlosser: minute to listen to a variety of speakers, and to 42 00:02:22,500 --> 00:02:25,889 Kurt Schlosser: waive signs and air their grievances about these topics that 43 00:02:25,889 --> 00:02:30,030 Kurt Schlosser: they think upper management is ignoring, chiefly the return to 44 00:02:30,030 --> 00:02:33,869 Kurt Schlosser: work policy that started May 1st where employees are required 45 00:02:33,870 --> 00:02:36,360 Kurt Schlosser: to be back in the office three days a week at 46 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,449 Kurt Schlosser: least, and their concerns about Amazon falling short of its 47 00:02:39,450 --> 00:02:44,880 Kurt Schlosser: climate pledge initiatives. So it was a twofold protest and 48 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,630 Kurt Schlosser: lasted about an hour, and then people presumably went back 49 00:02:48,630 --> 00:02:50,250 Kurt Schlosser: into the office where they didn't want to be. 50 00:02:52,290 --> 00:02:56,189 Todd Bishop: I know people are accustomed to Amazon w arehouse employees increasingly 51 00:02:56,580 --> 00:03:00,540 Todd Bishop: speaking out against the company, but to me, this was 52 00:03:00,540 --> 00:03:05,340 Todd Bishop: notable in part, because corporate and tech employees, historically at least, 53 00:03:05,340 --> 00:03:08,310 Todd Bishop: have not been as outspoken on these issues. And it 54 00:03:08,370 --> 00:03:11,698 Todd Bishop: reflects the change that we've seen over the past six 55 00:03:11,700 --> 00:03:15,000 Todd Bishop: months to a year as the economy has turned and 56 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,359 Todd Bishop: companies have started to cut back. Now, one of the 57 00:03:18,359 --> 00:03:22,139 Todd Bishop: employee groups that organized this particular protest, Amazon Employees for 58 00:03:22,139 --> 00:03:26,040 Todd Bishop: Climate Justice, actually goes back a number of years and 59 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,980 Todd Bishop: has been pushing the company in a variety of ways 60 00:03:28,980 --> 00:03:32,849 Todd Bishop: over that timeframe. But the other organization which is focused 61 00:03:32,849 --> 00:03:36,449 Todd Bishop: on remote work is relatively new and grassroots, and I 62 00:03:36,450 --> 00:03:39,060 Todd Bishop: thought it was interesting. One of the speakers that you 63 00:03:39,060 --> 00:03:42,960 Todd Bishop: heard from was an Amazon employee who started the internal 64 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:48,000 Todd Bishop: Slack channel that created this groundswell of opposition to the 65 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,440 Todd Bishop: Return to Office policy. 66 00:03:49,799 --> 00:03:53,789 Kurt Schlosser: The event was the Climate Groups event, at least that's 67 00:03:53,789 --> 00:03:57,990 Kurt Schlosser: what I was told. And then the remote group joined 68 00:03:57,990 --> 00:04:01,110 Kurt Schlosser: on when they became such a force within Amazon with 69 00:04:01,110 --> 00:04:06,359 Kurt Schlosser: this internal Slack channel that attracted some 33,000 employees. 70 00:04:06,540 --> 00:04:09,089 Todd Bishop: Here's an extended clip from the employee who created the 71 00:04:09,089 --> 00:04:12,630 Todd Bishop: Slack channel, Pamela Hayter, that puts the Return to Office 72 00:04:12,630 --> 00:04:15,030 Todd Bishop: controversy into broader perspective. 73 00:04:15,300 --> 00:04:18,960 Pamela Hayter: Back in February of this year, Andy Jassy, Amazon CEO, 74 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:24,480 Pamela Hayter: announced that this may Amazon's policy of allowing individual directors 75 00:04:24,540 --> 00:04:30,988 Pamela Hayter: to determine remote work, would come to an end. I 76 00:04:30,990 --> 00:04:33,990 Pamela Hayter: remember when I first read that announcement, my heart just 77 00:04:33,990 --> 00:04:38,820 Pamela Hayter: dropped, because I knew immediately the negative impact that this 78 00:04:38,820 --> 00:04:43,889 Pamela Hayter: would have on my family. Working from home had allowed 79 00:04:43,889 --> 00:04:47,369 Pamela Hayter: me the opportunity to be with my family more than 80 00:04:47,369 --> 00:04:49,980 Pamela Hayter: I had ever had before. A little bit of a 81 00:04:49,980 --> 00:04:53,700 Pamela Hayter: secret, I am a workaholic, a true trait of an 82 00:04:53,700 --> 00:04:55,620 Pamela Hayter: Amazonian, and I'm sure a lot of you out there 83 00:04:55,620 --> 00:05:01,080 Pamela Hayter: can relate. So, before the pandemic, I rarely found myself 84 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,889 Pamela Hayter: having time to spend with my family. I either was 85 00:05:04,889 --> 00:05:07,529 Pamela Hayter: in meetings at all hours of the day, I was 86 00:05:07,529 --> 00:05:11,370 Pamela Hayter: stuck in hours long traffic getting to the office, I 87 00:05:11,370 --> 00:05:15,118 Pamela Hayter: would spend eight plus hours at that set office, only 88 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,459 Pamela Hayter: to then yet again be stuck in more hours long 89 00:05:17,460 --> 00:05:20,580 Pamela Hayter: traffic on the way home. So, the time that I 90 00:05:20,580 --> 00:05:23,910 Pamela Hayter: spent at home was laughable at best, team, I got 91 00:05:23,910 --> 00:05:26,279 Pamela Hayter: to tell you. And believe me when I say, my 92 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:31,680 Pamela Hayter: family felt that. But at the time, I didn't know 93 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,830 Pamela Hayter: that there was a different world that was possible, so 94 00:05:34,830 --> 00:05:36,660 Pamela Hayter: we just did what we thought we had to do. 95 00:05:37,889 --> 00:05:40,260 Pamela Hayter: But when I think back on that time, it makes 96 00:05:40,260 --> 00:05:43,560 Pamela Hayter: me really sad, because now standing here today in front 97 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,440 Pamela Hayter: of you, I realize that it doesn't have to be 98 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,279 Pamela Hayter: that way. We don't have to spend hours of our 99 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,400 Pamela Hayter: lives in traffic, hours of our lives at an office 100 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:59,070 Pamela Hayter: building. We can be productive, customer obsessed, we can do 101 00:05:59,129 --> 00:06:01,890 Pamela Hayter: our good work, we can make a difference, and it 102 00:06:01,890 --> 00:06:04,050 Pamela Hayter: does not have to be in an office building. 103 00:06:05,130 --> 00:06:08,099 Kurt Schlosser: This employee, Pamela Hayter, who's been at Amazon for eight 104 00:06:08,099 --> 00:06:11,609 Kurt Schlosser: years, called the Slack Channel the largest concrete expression of 105 00:06:11,610 --> 00:06:16,589 Kurt Schlosser: employee dissatisfaction in our entire company history, during her speech 106 00:06:16,589 --> 00:06:17,308 Kurt Schlosser: to the crowd. 107 00:06:17,580 --> 00:06:21,180 Todd Bishop: Historic. History being made on Slack. 108 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,810 Kurt Schlosser: Trying to think what was the largest before that? 200 109 00:06:24,810 --> 00:06:28,020 Kurt Schlosser: people angry about a lack of poop bags at the dog park? 110 00:06:30,540 --> 00:06:32,610 Todd Bishop: To the point of us laughing about this, Kurt, it 111 00:06:32,610 --> 00:06:36,719 Todd Bishop: can come off as somewhat petty, but in fact, the 112 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,650 Todd Bishop: remote work group positioned this as an issue of equity 113 00:06:40,710 --> 00:06:44,850 Todd Bishop: and of fairness. Some of the norms that were created 114 00:06:45,178 --> 00:06:47,909 Todd Bishop: during the pandemic, created more of a level playing field 115 00:06:47,910 --> 00:06:52,500 Todd Bishop: for people with disabilities, others who have extenuating circumstances who 116 00:06:52,500 --> 00:06:54,000 Todd Bishop: might not be able to make it into the office 117 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,580 Todd Bishop: on a regular basis in the same way or with 118 00:06:56,580 --> 00:06:59,580 Todd Bishop: the same ease as some of their colleagues. And so, 119 00:07:00,060 --> 00:07:02,820 Todd Bishop: in a lot of ways, these are substantive issues being 120 00:07:02,820 --> 00:07:06,928 Todd Bishop: discussed here, not just for the company and the industry, but 121 00:07:06,928 --> 00:07:09,989 Todd Bishop: for individuals who have to grapple with this new policy 122 00:07:09,990 --> 00:07:12,000 Todd Bishop: that, as you said, went into effect on May 1st. 123 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,060 Kurt Schlosser: Yeah, that's a good point. I spoke to a couple different 124 00:07:15,060 --> 00:07:18,420 Kurt Schlosser: employees who expressed that exact sentiment. And one said, I 125 00:07:18,420 --> 00:07:20,400 Kurt Schlosser: asked him, " How do you feel about coming in three 126 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,349 Kurt Schlosser: days a week?" He said, " I'm coming in five days 127 00:07:22,349 --> 00:07:22,620 Kurt Schlosser: a week." 128 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,530 Amazon employee: I can walk to work, but there aren't that many 129 00:07:25,530 --> 00:07:29,009 Amazon employee: people like me. And I also don't have to be 130 00:07:29,010 --> 00:07:34,500 Amazon employee: a caregiver, I don't have any dependents, so I'm in 131 00:07:34,500 --> 00:07:36,030 Amazon employee: a position where it's okay for me to come in 132 00:07:36,030 --> 00:07:38,549 Amazon employee: the office, but I think I'm in the minority, a 133 00:07:38,550 --> 00:07:39,750 Amazon employee: very vast minority. 134 00:07:39,900 --> 00:07:42,090 Kurt Schlosser: But he goes, " I'm out here for my colleagues who 135 00:07:42,090 --> 00:07:46,559 Kurt Schlosser: don't have that luxury, whether it's because they're a caregiver 136 00:07:46,559 --> 00:07:49,500 Kurt Schlosser: or they have a disability that has made working from 137 00:07:49,500 --> 00:07:51,210 Kurt Schlosser: home an easier prospect." 138 00:07:51,210 --> 00:07:53,760 Amazon employee: It really bothers me that I'm in a company that's 139 00:07:54,060 --> 00:07:57,690 Amazon employee: 70% men in corporate Amazon, it's 80% men at the 140 00:07:57,929 --> 00:08:01,410 Amazon employee: manager level. I just feel like the tech industry holds 141 00:08:01,410 --> 00:08:04,529 Amazon employee: so much of the wealth in this city and the 142 00:08:04,529 --> 00:08:07,380 Amazon employee: country that it's really important to me that it be 143 00:08:07,380 --> 00:08:10,920 Amazon employee: a more diverse and accessible line of work for everyone. 144 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,280 Amazon employee: And seeing the teammates of mine who are immediately looking 145 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,739 Amazon employee: for new jobs, because they are caregivers or they have 146 00:08:16,740 --> 00:08:19,860 Amazon employee: a health issue or they don't qualify for disability, but 147 00:08:19,860 --> 00:08:21,450 Amazon employee: they can't make it to the office for some other 148 00:08:21,450 --> 00:08:25,740 Amazon employee: reason, just makes me furious, and I want to see that change. 149 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,760 Todd Bishop: In a video posted online by the company last month, 150 00:08:30,090 --> 00:08:34,710 Todd Bishop: Amazon CEO Andy Jassy is shown greeting employees individually as 151 00:08:34,710 --> 00:08:38,069 Todd Bishop: they walk into the company's headquarters before sharing his own 152 00:08:38,070 --> 00:08:41,669 Todd Bishop: perspective on the importance of returning to the office. 153 00:08:41,729 --> 00:08:44,699 Andy Jassy: Well, I'm really excited to have more of my teammates back in 154 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:47,040 Andy Jassy: the office. I think we're pretty convinced that we're going 155 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,588 Andy Jassy: to invent and collaborate better when we're in the office 156 00:08:49,590 --> 00:08:51,989 Andy Jassy: more together. I think the riffing that happens is really 157 00:08:51,990 --> 00:08:55,020 Andy Jassy: different. I think the ability to map out ideas in 158 00:08:55,020 --> 00:08:57,059 Andy Jassy: the whiteboard when you're done with the meeting, is different. 159 00:08:57,059 --> 00:08:59,880 Andy Jassy: Those serendipitous meetings happen a lot more when we're together, 160 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:02,400 Andy Jassy: but I also think it's easier to be connected to 161 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,949 Andy Jassy: one another and to understand the culture better when we're 162 00:09:04,950 --> 00:09:08,098 Andy Jassy: here together. And when you work with talented and inventive 163 00:09:08,099 --> 00:09:10,530 Andy Jassy: people like we do, it's also more fun to be 164 00:09:10,530 --> 00:09:12,449 Andy Jassy: together. So I'm excited to have everybody back. 165 00:09:12,690 --> 00:09:15,630 Todd Bishop: One more perspective on the return to office issue, we 166 00:09:15,630 --> 00:09:19,140 Todd Bishop: did hear from some readers, unaffiliated with Amazon, who criticized 167 00:09:19,140 --> 00:09:21,900 Todd Bishop: the walkout. They pointed out, for example, that for more 168 00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:25,260 Todd Bishop: than two years during the pandemic, Amazon's warehouse workers had 169 00:09:25,260 --> 00:09:27,630 Todd Bishop: no choice but to come to work, as the company 170 00:09:27,630 --> 00:09:30,900 Todd Bishop: dealt with huge demand from shoppers at home. After the 171 00:09:30,900 --> 00:09:33,180 Todd Bishop: break, Amazon and the planet. 172 00:09:37,470 --> 00:09:41,309 Todd Bishop: Climate issues were obviously key as well, and on their 173 00:09:41,309 --> 00:09:45,689 Todd Bishop: webpage encouraging employees to walk out, the organizer said that 174 00:09:45,690 --> 00:09:50,579 Todd Bishop: Amazon is severely under counting its carbon footprint, disproportionately polluting 175 00:09:50,610 --> 00:09:55,740 Todd Bishop: communities of color, increasing carbon emissions 40% since 2019, killing 176 00:09:55,740 --> 00:09:59,250 Todd Bishop: clean energy legislation. All of these things, a laundry list 177 00:09:59,250 --> 00:10:03,030 Todd Bishop: of things that the Amazon employees for Climate Justice say, 178 00:10:03,389 --> 00:10:06,210 Todd Bishop: really runs counter to the company's Climate Pledge. 179 00:10:06,660 --> 00:10:11,849 Jeff Bezos: Today we are announcing the Climate Pledge. The climate pledge 180 00:10:12,150 --> 00:10:16,200 Jeff Bezos: is to meet the goals of the Paris Agreement 10 181 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,880 Jeff Bezos: years early. Amazon becomes the first signatory to the Climate 182 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,880 Jeff Bezos: Pledge. We want to use our scale and our scope 183 00:10:23,940 --> 00:10:24,720 Jeff Bezos: to lead the way. 184 00:10:25,139 --> 00:10:27,780 Todd Bishop: Of course, the company says, they've been doing the best 185 00:10:27,780 --> 00:10:30,689 Todd Bishop: they can. It takes time to accomplish these things, and 186 00:10:30,750 --> 00:10:33,540 Todd Bishop: they remain on track according to Amazon to get to a 187 00:10:33,540 --> 00:10:38,429 Todd Bishop: 100% renewable energy by 2025, they continue investing substantially. So 188 00:10:38,429 --> 00:10:41,520 Todd Bishop: you've got both sides of this, but clearly this was 189 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:46,079 Todd Bishop: a platform for the employees to air their views and 190 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,900 Todd Bishop: to bring attention to these issues in a very public way. 191 00:10:49,980 --> 00:10:52,978 Kurt Schlosser: Yeah, the term greenwashing was thrown around quite a bit. 192 00:10:53,250 --> 00:10:55,890 Kurt Schlosser: It was on the banner behind the speaker's podium, and 193 00:10:55,890 --> 00:10:59,910 Kurt Schlosser: several employees used that term when speaking to me. A 194 00:10:59,910 --> 00:11:03,029 Kurt Schlosser: couple of them openly mocked the fact that Amazon has 195 00:11:03,089 --> 00:11:07,470 Kurt Schlosser: slapped the Climate Pledge name on the arena over at 196 00:11:07,470 --> 00:11:11,130 Kurt Schlosser: Seattle Center. They said that's nice for media purposes and 197 00:11:11,130 --> 00:11:14,879 Kurt Schlosser: for hand waving, but it does really nothing to get 198 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:16,380 Kurt Schlosser: at the issues that they're concerned about. 199 00:11:16,830 --> 00:11:22,109 Amazon employee: It's frustrating, because Amazon made the Climate Pledge, which is net- 200 00:11:22,109 --> 00:11:25,050 Amazon employee: zero emissions by 2040, and they boast about it all 201 00:11:25,050 --> 00:11:27,570 Amazon employee: the time. I mean, we have the Climate Pledge Arena 202 00:11:27,570 --> 00:11:30,330 Amazon employee: blocks from here, and yet if you look at the 203 00:11:30,330 --> 00:11:35,010 Amazon employee: sustainability reports, our emissions are only going up. And on 204 00:11:35,010 --> 00:11:38,130 Amazon employee: top of that, there was this pledge called Shipment Zero, 205 00:11:38,130 --> 00:11:42,989 Amazon employee: which was 50% of shipments being zero carbon. And yet 206 00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:46,500 Amazon employee: last week they dropped that silently, and internally we learned 207 00:11:46,500 --> 00:11:49,740 Amazon employee: about that from a reporter, not from Andy Jassy or 208 00:11:49,740 --> 00:11:57,869 Amazon employee: from Worldwide Sustainability. And so, it's really frustrating to publicly 209 00:11:57,870 --> 00:12:01,019 Amazon employee: see Amazon say that they're going to do better about 210 00:12:01,020 --> 00:12:04,590 Amazon employee: the climate, and yet in reality, we're only going in 211 00:12:04,590 --> 00:12:07,200 Amazon employee: the wrong direction. That's frustrating. 212 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,980 Todd Bishop: As you may have noticed, despite reassurances from organizers that 213 00:12:10,980 --> 00:12:13,919 Todd Bishop: they would be safe from any retribution, the employees Kurt 214 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,559 Todd Bishop: spoke with were not comfortable sharing their names on the 215 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,978 Todd Bishop: record. As he spoke with employees at the rally, Kurt 216 00:12:19,980 --> 00:12:22,141 Todd Bishop: asked several of them, " So, why are you still working here?" 217 00:12:22,141 --> 00:12:27,360 Amazon employee: Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I joined Amazon 218 00:12:27,420 --> 00:12:32,310 Amazon employee: in 2019 with the Climate Pledge fresh. I was really 219 00:12:32,549 --> 00:12:34,889 Amazon employee: feeling great about it, and I feel fortunate that I 220 00:12:34,889 --> 00:12:38,880 Amazon employee: work with great colleagues, but absolutely, I mean, sometimes I 221 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,340 Amazon employee: feel like I'm part of this greenwashing machine, and I'm 222 00:12:43,650 --> 00:12:47,099 Amazon employee: not part of something bigger. I've brought up sustainability in 223 00:12:47,099 --> 00:12:50,370 Amazon employee: meetings, and yet leadership doesn't see it as a priority. 224 00:12:50,549 --> 00:12:53,039 Amazon employee: And so, I feel like this is the only way 225 00:12:53,250 --> 00:12:56,700 Amazon employee: to get their ear and tell them that we're not 226 00:12:56,700 --> 00:12:57,360 Amazon employee: okay with this. 227 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,840 Kurt Schlosser: These concerns that are being raised, do they ever make 228 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,578 Kurt Schlosser: you wonder, " Why do I work at this place?" 229 00:13:03,719 --> 00:13:05,969 Amazon employee: I love my work at Amazon. I've never worked with 230 00:13:05,969 --> 00:13:10,320 Amazon employee: better, more capable people. This job is really suited to 231 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,140 Amazon employee: what I care about, and I do want to fight 232 00:13:13,140 --> 00:13:13,500 Amazon employee: for it. 233 00:13:13,980 --> 00:13:17,580 Todd Bishop: But there is one last controversy to discuss. That's after 234 00:13:17,580 --> 00:13:18,088 Todd Bishop: the break. 235 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:24,179 Todd Bishop: Kurt, I hate to go all Sean Spicer on you 236 00:13:24,179 --> 00:13:26,940 Todd Bishop: here, but I feel like we have to address and 237 00:13:26,940 --> 00:13:31,650 Todd Bishop: discuss the questions that came up over the size of 238 00:13:31,650 --> 00:13:35,429 Todd Bishop: this crowd. I was tempted in our discussions to just 239 00:13:35,429 --> 00:13:40,530 Todd Bishop: call it Bigley, but this was a crowd, you were 240 00:13:40,530 --> 00:13:44,249 Todd Bishop: there, and I was looking at the photos, and our 241 00:13:44,250 --> 00:13:50,429 Todd Bishop: estimate was 300 to 400 people. And the organizers said 242 00:13:50,429 --> 00:13:54,360 Todd Bishop: that about a 1, 000 pledged to walk out, and very 243 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,030 Todd Bishop: well may have walked out, but they also contended that 244 00:13:57,330 --> 00:14:00,300 Todd Bishop: the bulk of those 1, 000 based on their count, were in 245 00:14:00,300 --> 00:14:05,460 Todd Bishop: that courtyard between the Amazon spheres and the Doppler building 246 00:14:05,490 --> 00:14:07,170 Todd Bishop: right next to the Day 1 Tower, which is the 247 00:14:07,170 --> 00:14:11,189 Todd Bishop: headquarters. I got to say, I don't think that was 248 00:14:11,190 --> 00:14:11,939 Todd Bishop: the case. 249 00:14:12,150 --> 00:14:15,360 Kurt Schlosser: Yeah, it tightened up a bit when it finally got 250 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,719 Kurt Schlosser: started, but there were a lot of people on the 251 00:14:18,719 --> 00:14:22,169 Kurt Schlosser: periphery like, " Hey, should I go get a salad or 252 00:14:22,170 --> 00:14:26,280 Kurt Schlosser: should I listen to these coworkers of mine talk about 253 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,540 Kurt Schlosser: these issues?" I couldn't tell who was there for the 254 00:14:30,540 --> 00:14:33,749 Kurt Schlosser: rally and who was just passing by. Some people were 255 00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:36,240 Kurt Schlosser: up behind the podium at the dog park. Some were 256 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,780 Kurt Schlosser: hidden in the trees, in the bushes that ring the 257 00:14:39,780 --> 00:14:45,210 Kurt Schlosser: spheres. Some were hiding behind their signs. Amazon has been 258 00:14:45,210 --> 00:14:49,860 Kurt Schlosser: known to dabble in facial recognition technology. I wonder about 259 00:14:49,860 --> 00:14:53,700 Kurt Schlosser: standing in that plaza and giving up your face for 260 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:55,829 Kurt Schlosser: future uses. 261 00:14:56,309 --> 00:14:59,309 Todd Bishop: One would hope in an altruistic way that none of 262 00:14:59,309 --> 00:15:02,070 Todd Bishop: this would be used for retribution. And in fact, the 263 00:15:02,070 --> 00:15:06,570 Todd Bishop: groups reassured employees who were considering participating in the walkout 264 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:11,340 Todd Bishop: that they were effectively legally protected as a form of 265 00:15:11,370 --> 00:15:15,929 Todd Bishop: demonstration and free speech to do this walkout, without fear 266 00:15:15,929 --> 00:15:20,100 Todd Bishop: of retribution. The crowd size intrigued me in part, because 267 00:15:20,310 --> 00:15:23,310 Todd Bishop: the size of the crowd is an indication of the 268 00:15:24,150 --> 00:15:28,289 Todd Bishop: momentum that's behind this movement. The organizer said, as we mentioned, 269 00:15:28,290 --> 00:15:32,009 Todd Bishop: that they had about 1, 000 people pledge to walk out 270 00:15:32,009 --> 00:15:36,690 Todd Bishop: in Seattle, and that's out of 2, 143 worldwide. They 271 00:15:36,690 --> 00:15:39,870 Todd Bishop: also noted anecdotally that some people walked out without pledging 272 00:15:39,900 --> 00:15:42,090 Todd Bishop: in advance to do it. And the pledges were interesting, 273 00:15:42,090 --> 00:15:44,940 Todd Bishop: because they wanted to reach a threshold of 1, 000 274 00:15:44,940 --> 00:15:48,179 Todd Bishop: people promising to walk out before they went ahead with 275 00:15:48,179 --> 00:15:51,719 Todd Bishop: it. For context, when you take that 1, 000 in Seattle 276 00:15:51,719 --> 00:15:57,120 Todd Bishop: or 2, 100 worldwide number, then that compares to 65,000 277 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,350 Todd Bishop: corporate and tech workers in Seattle overall for Amazon, and about 350, 278 00:16:01,350 --> 00:16:06,960 Todd Bishop: 000 worldwide, so a relatively small fraction of Amazon's workforce. 279 00:16:07,049 --> 00:16:09,629 Kurt Schlosser: I would've been much busier if 50,000 people floated out 280 00:16:09,630 --> 00:16:13,350 Kurt Schlosser: of those buildings into the streets and turned the Return 281 00:16:13,350 --> 00:16:20,640 Kurt Schlosser: to Office, RTO rally into WTO style full on Seattle mayhem. 282 00:16:22,349 --> 00:16:25,530 Todd Bishop: We're not at that point yet with the Amazon employee 283 00:16:25,530 --> 00:16:26,970 Todd Bishop: base yet, at least. 284 00:16:27,059 --> 00:16:29,460 Kurt Schlosser: Yeah. I'm angry. I'm hungry. What do I do? 285 00:16:29,460 --> 00:16:34,680 Todd Bishop: I don't know that chant. 286 00:16:34,770 --> 00:16:37,410 Kurt Schlosser: You'll hear it at your local salad bar in South Lake Union. 287 00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:43,110 Todd Bishop: All right. Well, this was an interesting week in part, 288 00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:47,490 Todd Bishop: because I think it represented this tug of war, this 289 00:16:47,490 --> 00:16:50,820 Todd Bishop: change in the balance of power between employees and big 290 00:16:50,820 --> 00:16:54,030 Todd Bishop: tech companies. And that's in part because you've got the 291 00:16:54,030 --> 00:16:59,369 Todd Bishop: stock price tanking and layoffs happening, and this r eturn to 292 00:16:59,370 --> 00:17:03,329 Todd Bishop: office mandate all happening at the same time, and it's 293 00:17:03,330 --> 00:17:08,550 Todd Bishop: creating this really complex stew of emotions and motivations, and 294 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,109 Todd Bishop: you're seeing tech employers and tech employees at odds more 295 00:17:13,109 --> 00:17:15,270 Todd Bishop: than they have been in the past. Thank you, Kurt. 296 00:17:15,660 --> 00:17:16,290 Kurt Schlosser: Thanks Todd. 297 00:17:16,830 --> 00:17:19,679 Todd Bishop: See the show notes for related links and stories, and 298 00:17:19,679 --> 00:17:22,498 Todd Bishop: be sure to subscribe, rate and review the show wherever 299 00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:25,020 Todd Bishop: you listen. We'll be back next week with a new 300 00:17:25,020 --> 00:17:27,390 Todd Bishop: episode of the GeekWire Podcast.