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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: There are other videos of Claudio Niranio where he shares

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Speaker 2: in detail what he meant by automatic writing, where he

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Speaker 2: literally says, I felt like something was trying to write

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Speaker 2: through me, and I sat down and I had my

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Speaker 2: pen in my hand, and I started writing. And it

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Speaker 2: was like I got a sense like, no, that's not

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Speaker 2: what it is. That's not what it is, that's not

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Speaker 2: what I'm supposed to be writing. And it wasn't until

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Speaker 2: I fully surrendered control of my hand and my body

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Speaker 2: and I watched my hand move on its own that

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Speaker 2: the development of the enneagram was written down on the page.

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Speaker 2: He explains in detail that he surrendered his faculties and

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Speaker 2: that his hand was moving without his own free will

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Speaker 2: dictating the hand.

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Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

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Speaker 1: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is

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Speaker 1: your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and remarkable comebacks.

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Speaker 1: In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate,

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Speaker 1: the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk. But it's

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Speaker 1: also a place of hope and healing. I know that

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Speaker 1: firsthand because I'm the Christian who became an alcoholic, not

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Speaker 1: the other way. Around today. I've found sobriety after decades

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Speaker 1: of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety, I found Jesus.

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Speaker 1: My prayer is that as I interview people just like

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Speaker 1: you and just like me, along with professionals in the

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Speaker 1: fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery, you will find

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Speaker 1: the peace that is available to you through Christ on

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Speaker 1: the other side of whatever you're going through and whatever

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Speaker 1: addiction that might be. Because let's face it, we're all

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Speaker 1: addicted to something so welcome. Let's get radically vulnerable as

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Speaker 1: we explore what it looks like to be on this

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Speaker 1: journey of messy sanctification. We'll be right back after this.

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Speaker 1: What if I told you that there is something that

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Speaker 1: has at best questionable roots, at worst demonic ones, that

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Speaker 1: has wormed and weaved its way into many of our

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Speaker 1: churches and many of the aspects of Christian culture. I

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Speaker 1: say that with a lot of trepidation. I would say,

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Speaker 1: because what I'm going to be talking about today is

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Speaker 1: something that a lot of people love and have used.

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Speaker 1: I've used it in the past, and yet I can't

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Speaker 1: unhear what I have heard. So before we jump in

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Speaker 1: today's episode, I want to set this conversation up carefully.

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Speaker 1: This is not meant to shame anyone. It's not meant

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Speaker 1: to make people feel foolish or manipulated or spiritually inferior.

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Speaker 1: In fact, one of the reasons I wanted to have

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Speaker 1: this conversation is because our guest today and I both

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Speaker 1: understand that it is very easy for so many Christians,

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Speaker 1: including people in recovery circles, to be attracted to what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about today. So what are we talking about

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Speaker 1: today today? We are talking about the Enneagram, and our

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Speaker 1: guest is Christina and Wallace. Christina is someone I have

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Speaker 1: gotten to know over the past couple of years through substack,

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Speaker 1: and she is a I think a brilliant person and

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Speaker 1: a deep thinker. She is currently doing theology work, getting

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Speaker 1: her theology degree at Oxford. She has a master's in

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Speaker 1: creative writing. She helps people tell their stories and I

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Speaker 1: have come to really respect her. And so a year

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Speaker 1: or so ago, she wrote an article on some of

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Speaker 1: the scary roots of the Enneagram. But she did this

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Speaker 1: as a person who loved the enneagram and was told, hey,

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Speaker 1: you may want to look into some of this, and

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Speaker 1: she kind of set out in a way to disprove

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Speaker 1: it and say like, this is ridiculous, this is kind

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Speaker 1: of like getting out of hand. Let me just look

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Speaker 1: into it and kind of show you. And when she

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Speaker 1: started doing the research, she was like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: and so we're going to talk about that today. You know,

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Speaker 1: the Anea. Graham has become incredibly popular in Christian spaces,

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Speaker 1: counseling spaces, and also recovery communities because people are desperate

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Speaker 1: to understand themselves and to understand others and to understand

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Speaker 1: why am I struggling with this? Why can't I get

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Speaker 1: over this? Uh? Why have the things that I've tried

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Speaker 1: not worked? And I get that, I really do. Like

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Speaker 1: I said, I've used the enneagram myself. I've talked about

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Speaker 1: it public publicly, I have friends who use it, and

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Speaker 1: I found aspects of it that have been helpful. So again,

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Speaker 1: this episode is not coming from a place of mockery

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Speaker 1: or fear mongering or superiority. But when I read Christina's

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Speaker 1: initial article and then also her follow up article on

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Speaker 1: the history and roots of the inneagram and finding it's

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Speaker 1: occult origins and some of the downright scary things that

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Speaker 1: some of the fathers of the Enneagram talk about how

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Speaker 1: they came up with their ideas. I was like, dang it. Wow.

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Speaker 1: And so as I continue to hear about the enneagram

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Speaker 1: in recovery Circles, I thought, you know what, I just

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Speaker 1: feel like it's my obligation to present this material to you,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted Christina to present it just like straight

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Speaker 1: from some of the sources, if you will. So she's

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Speaker 1: going to read some of those some of that source

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Speaker 1: material today and explain what she found. Though we're going

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Speaker 1: to have a nuanced conversation. I'm going to be open

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Speaker 1: about some questions that I have. Hey, are you saying this?

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Speaker 1: Does this mean this can? Are you saying like Christians

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Speaker 1: can never use it? Should we not? I mean, so

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Speaker 1: we're going to get into all of that and throughout

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Speaker 1: this episode, though, what I want you to hear is

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Speaker 1: that there is room for nuance and there is room

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Speaker 1: for your questions, and so I would highly encourage you

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Speaker 1: to reach out to Christina. And I have linked also

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Speaker 1: the articles in her research in the show notes, and

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Speaker 1: so I would love for you to go through those

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Speaker 1: as well. My goal is not to create panic in

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Speaker 1: this episode. My goal is not to create fear. It's

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Speaker 1: not to create again shame or to you know, say,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, how you know, how have you been

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Speaker 1: so blinded? Right? I really just want to have this

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Speaker 1: important conversation and then see where the Lord My lead you.

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Speaker 1: So now, without further ado, this is a long conversation,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's a necessary conversation with Christina Lynn

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Speaker 1: Wallace about the enneagram. Let's go, Christina. Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for joining the Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic podcast.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because I think from the moment that we

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Speaker 1: started to really get to know each other, I was like,

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Speaker 1: how can we get Christina on the podcast? But what

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Speaker 1: I want to be clear though, is like this is

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Speaker 1: not trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

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Speaker 1: I think this is a really important conversation that we're

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Speaker 1: going to have about the enneagram, and I think that

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Speaker 1: has a lot of practical benefits for people. And so

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Speaker 1: I'll talk about that a little bit more. Talked a

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Speaker 1: little bit about it in the in the intro. But

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Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me on. John. I'm super excited

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Speaker 2: I had you on my podcast. I think our first

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Speaker 2: like real connection was over CS Lewis. So I was

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Speaker 2: glad to have you on mine. That was like an

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Speaker 2: easy sell, but I'm excited to be on yours now.

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Speaker 1: So good. It was so good you should you should

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Speaker 1: go back and listen to that. We talked about one

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Speaker 1: of those screw tape letters and I think we just

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Speaker 1: geeked in it out for like an hour and a

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Speaker 1: half and it was great.

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Speaker 2: It was fun.

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Speaker 1: So I always love to ask people to tell a

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Speaker 1: little bit about themselves because I think it's important for you. Know,

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Speaker 1: I can give your bio, I can talk about who

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Speaker 1: you are, but when people talk about themselves, I think

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Speaker 1: you get more and you get interesting. Fact. So tell

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Speaker 1: the audience a little bit about who you are, where

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Speaker 1: you are, and what you do.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So I my name's Christina Lin Wallace. I am

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Speaker 2: a writer and a writing teacher. I have a really

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Speaker 2: very kind of career background. I used to teach as

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Speaker 2: an academic writing teacher at a university, and then I

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Speaker 2: worked as a copywriter for a Christian nonprofit and I

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Speaker 2: kind of my soul died in the hustle of like

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Speaker 2: the nine to five, and like, I just don't think

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Speaker 2: God built me for that kind of way of working.

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Speaker 2: Not that there's anything wrong with it, and in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three, I ended up leaving that nonprofit job and

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Speaker 2: starting my own business where I work as I don't

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Speaker 2: like to use the word coach because I don't have

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Speaker 2: coaching qualifications, but I'm a writing teacher. I knew a

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Speaker 2: writing teaching qualification, so I'm a writing teacher. I teach

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Speaker 2: a writing course for Christians who have always felt like

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Speaker 2: God's been calling them to tell their story by writing

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Speaker 2: a book, but they don't know where to start, and

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Speaker 2: they don't have any formal writing training, and it feels

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Speaker 2: like this weird, nebulous testimony that they don't know how

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Speaker 2: to sort into an actual book format. And so I

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Speaker 2: had a master's in creative writing and then a career

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Speaker 2: in academic writing. So taking the creative and the structural

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Speaker 2: and putting it together in a course was like a

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Speaker 2: easy extension of me basically just making my own dream job.

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Speaker 2: So that's what I do now, and I write as well,

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Speaker 2: like I'm always doing my own writing on substack. And

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Speaker 2: then about a year ago, God brought a dream, a

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Speaker 2: ten year old dream, back to the forefront and ended

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Speaker 2: up It's a very long story that I won't get

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Speaker 2: into because we don't have time, but ended up making

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Speaker 2: a pathway for me to go back to university. I

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Speaker 2: didn't think I was ever going to go back to

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Speaker 2: UNI after getting my masters, but I am now back

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Speaker 2: at university studying theology at Oxford. So I'm kind of

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Speaker 2: I kind of have a sense of like, where God's

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Speaker 2: gonna fit that into my wider work that he has

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Speaker 2: for me. But also I have another sense that there

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Speaker 2: are things that He has yet for me to do

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Speaker 2: that I don't know about, and I'm just being faithful

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Speaker 2: with where I'm at and trying to learn more about

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Speaker 2: Him through theological studies. But it's been really fun to

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Speaker 2: be able to also incorporate that in with the work

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Speaker 2: I do with my clients because interestingly, a lot of

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Speaker 2: my clients and a lot of my students, because I

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Speaker 2: do one on one mentorship as well as teaching this

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Speaker 2: course to groups, and when I have one on one students,

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Speaker 2: a lot of them will come to me, and their

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Speaker 2: questions are less about the tech ancalities of writing, even

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Speaker 2: though that's what I market is the thing I do.

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Speaker 2: They're more about the theological questions of how to storytell

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Speaker 2: in a way that is honoring to God. So it's

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Speaker 2: such a blessing that God facilitated my ability to actually

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Speaker 2: start studying and training more formally because I need that accountability,

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Speaker 2: I need that guidance. I need someone with authority over

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Speaker 2: me in the form of my lectures, my lecturers and

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Speaker 2: my chaplains who can help me develop, because otherwise I'm

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Speaker 2: putting myself in a position of authority over how people

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Speaker 2: are telling their stories that could potentially get published and

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Speaker 2: read by lots of people, and I take that responsibility

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Speaker 2: really seriously. So just around the time that people were

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Speaker 2: kind of starting to put me in this position of

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Speaker 2: theological authority that I did not feel prepared for at all,

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Speaker 2: God was like, it's okay, I'm going to bring you

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Speaker 2: back into being the student in this space and keep

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Speaker 2: guiding you and teaching you, and like, just praise the

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Speaker 2: Lord for his providence and his goodness that I have

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Speaker 2: that support now. So, uh yeah, that's what I do.

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Speaker 2: I'm a writer and I'm a writing teacher. I live

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Speaker 2: in the leafy, beautiful English countryside. I moved to England

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Speaker 2: from the US when I was eighteen, and I'm married

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Speaker 2: to a lovely British man and I have a really

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Speaker 2: weird but lovable golden doodle. And that's that's me in

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Speaker 2: a nutshell.

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Speaker 1: And every once in a while there's like a little

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Speaker 1: British accent that like pops out in certain word.

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Speaker 2: Uni.

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Speaker 1: You know, we don't say that we're here, you know,

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Speaker 1: Chris and I love it, right. I just had, by

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Speaker 1: the way, I had an idea. I think we need

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Speaker 1: to have you on another podcast. And I think what

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Speaker 1: we need to do is, you know, there's so many

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Speaker 1: people who are listening to this now who have a story,

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Speaker 1: and I think we need to do a podcast on

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Speaker 1: how to tell your story. Oh, I would love to

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Speaker 1: stick that in the back of our minds for a

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Speaker 1: part two with Christina and Wallace the Oxford the Oxford

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Speaker 1: educated writing teacher. I mean, I think that'd go overwhell

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Speaker 1: so okay, But interestingly, we are not here to talk

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Speaker 1: about that today now. In fact, we are here to

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Speaker 1: talk about something that you were You were very trepidacious

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Speaker 1: about comment.

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Speaker 2: I'm still I'm still, as I'm talking to you, trepidacious.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and and so I think you know we are

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Speaker 1: we are going to be talking about a sacred cow.

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Speaker 1: And you know, here's why we're talking about this right.

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Speaker 1: I think this is gonna be a little bit longer

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Speaker 1: of a podcast. Just strap in right, because there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be a lot to explain, There's gonna be a lot

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Speaker 1: to talk about, and I need to set this up correctly.

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Speaker 1: So here's you want to you know, as I say

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Speaker 1: in the military, the you know, bottom line up top.

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Speaker 1: What are we talking about. We're talking about the fact

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Speaker 1: that the eneagram may not be what you think it is.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the roots of the enneagram

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Speaker 1: and how there are some scary things there and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna be wrestling with especially the question can Christians redeem

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Speaker 1: things that have pagan possibly Satanic roots and use them

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Speaker 1: for good? And we're going to wrestle with all of that.

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Speaker 1: But why are we talking about that on a podcast

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Speaker 1: called Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic Because if you have

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Speaker 1: listened to this podcast for any length of time, if

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Speaker 1: you have read my book, my books, the first one,

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Speaker 1: especially on faith in mental health, you will know that

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Speaker 1: I'm a big proponent of going to counseling. I'm a

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Speaker 1: big proponent of modern psychology, you know, being looked at

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Speaker 1: through the lens of scripture, right, not scripture supporting psychology,

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Speaker 1: but psychology supporting scripture in the sense of let science

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Speaker 1: and modern counseling techniques and all this stuff catch up

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Speaker 1: to scripture. Right, base our stuff on scripture, and then

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Speaker 1: where those things can support it and and help us,

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Speaker 1: let's use that, right. And I think one of those

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Speaker 1: things historically that I've talked about, not in depth, but

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Speaker 1: has been the enneagram. Right, I'm in aneagram three, and

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Speaker 1: that has led to plenty of good conversations. It's allowed

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Speaker 1: me to relate to people. They're like, They're like, you're

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Speaker 1: an aneagram three, aren't you. I'm like yes, and they're like,

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Speaker 1: I'm an aneogram three. Oh, okay, now I know, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I can I can connect with you. I can talk

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Speaker 1: with you. Right, you're an anagram eate. My wife's an

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Speaker 1: anyagram et. Oh that that's helpful. Right, there's books on

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Speaker 1: you know, how anyagram three can relate to an aneagram

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Speaker 1: eight and how can that help your marriage? And how

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Speaker 1: can that help your spirituality? And so I think there

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Speaker 1: are plenty of people listening to this who love the enneagram,

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Speaker 1: who it has been helpful for, who can use it

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Speaker 1: and have used it in their recovery journeys to allow

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Speaker 1: them to be introspective and allow Jesus into those parts

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Speaker 1: of themselves and all that. Right. And so when Christina,

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Speaker 1: you know, going on probably a year ago, wrote an

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Speaker 1: article about the origins of the enneagram and what so

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Speaker 1: many of us don't realize. I was initially skeptical, not

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Speaker 1: like I mean, I trust Christina, right, I trust her

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Speaker 1: writing in fact, and I don't say this Coculie. I

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Speaker 1: think I was like one of the first people to

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Speaker 1: kind of platform it right from the very beginning, right,

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Speaker 1: So when I saw it, I was a little skeptical,

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Speaker 1: and then I read it and I was like, oh, no, dang,

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Speaker 1: what do I do with this? Because you did and

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Speaker 1: maybe expose somebody call it an expose, but I think

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Speaker 1: expose has some perhaps negative connotations in the sense that

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Speaker 1: you've been on a war path, you've been out to

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Speaker 1: get the enneagram forever, and I'm just gonn I'm glad

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Speaker 1: to everyone. It was like, no, you were like, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to write this, but I've come to like

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Speaker 1: like this has been brought to my attention, and because

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Speaker 1: you are an academic, you're like, I'm going to research this.

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Speaker 1: And then as you researched it, you're like, oh no,

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Speaker 1: oh no, and I don't know. The Lord's telling me

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Speaker 1: to write this, and I don't want to write it.

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Speaker 1: So that's a little bit of context. That's a little

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Speaker 1: bit of why we're talking about this. And so I'm

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Speaker 1: hoping that you will listen to this with an open mind,

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Speaker 1: that you will listen to this with the heart behind

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Speaker 1: what it's intended to be, which is a conversation. And

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Speaker 1: then I don't think necessarily that we're well, I just

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Speaker 1: think we're gonna ask some questions, right, and that's the

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Speaker 1: spirit that this is is recorded. So with that, Christina,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to open the floor and say, let's start here.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about the article you wrote and why you

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Speaker 1: wrote it, and then let's get, you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: meander into what you found about what Christians especially need

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Speaker 1: to know and understand about the origins and roots of

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Speaker 1: the Enniam.

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Speaker 2: Can I quickly, very quickly pray over the listeners before

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Speaker 2: I start talking.

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Speaker 1: Geez, yes, let's do it.

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Speaker 2: I really like to do that in the name of

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Speaker 2: the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen,

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Speaker 2: Father God. I just pray that every person who's listening

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Speaker 2: right in this moment, would feel you deeply present with them. Lord.

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Speaker 2: The words that just keep coming to my mind is

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Speaker 2: those who have ears, let them hear. But I pray

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Speaker 2: that as they hear, they would know that they are

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Speaker 2: safe with you. They are safe with you in this moment.

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Speaker 2: Whatever the outcome, may your spirit and your grace draw

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Speaker 2: them to a deeper desire of truth, because truth is

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Speaker 2: a person, Truth is You. And I pray that no

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Speaker 2: matter what they come away with at the end of

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Speaker 2: this episode, they would know that they are not under condemnation,

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Speaker 2: but that they have the open access to continuously pursue

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Speaker 2: truth by chasing after you, and that whatever comes out

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Speaker 2: of this conversation, the only thing that they would walk

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Speaker 2: away with is a deeper desire to chase after you

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Speaker 2: in the name of the Father and the Son and

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Speaker 2: the Holy Spirit. Amen, that's the first thing. Thank you

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Speaker 2: for indulging me.

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Speaker 1: We pray. I pray with every guest before we hit record,

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Speaker 1: But that's the first time someone is stopped in the beginning,

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Speaker 1: you know, to pray on air, and I think it

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Speaker 1: goes to what we're talking about, because you've actually encountered

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Speaker 1: a lot of what you would call spiritual warfare as

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Speaker 1: a result of these conversations and this article. So I

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Speaker 1: think that's important, Thank you well.

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Speaker 2: And I also just wanted to like pray that, like,

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Speaker 2: I'm not the authority to listen to right, I am

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Speaker 2: doing the best I can to be faithful with what

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Speaker 2: God's shown me. But at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: like one of the first things I said after my

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Speaker 2: Enneagram essay exploded, because I was not expecting it to explode,

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Speaker 2: and it's still to this day, had more views than

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Speaker 2: any other article I've ever written in like the tens

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Speaker 2: of thousands, and that was just bonkers to me. I

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Speaker 2: wasn't expecting that at all, and I was then afraid

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Speaker 2: that I was going to get known as the Enneagram girl,

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Speaker 2: where like suddenly, now my my brand is spiritual warfare,

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Speaker 2: and my brand is teaching on discernment, and like I

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Speaker 2: care about all those things, and I guide my students

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Speaker 2: when they're writing their books through those things. But I, uh, John,

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Speaker 2: I just recoil at the idea of platforming myself as

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Speaker 2: the spiritual authority because I mean, and I take my

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Speaker 2: role as a leader in this space inasmuch as I'm

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Speaker 2: a teacher. I take that really seriously and I want

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Speaker 2: to do my best to stewart that role well, but

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Speaker 2: I am not the ultimate authority. That's why I went

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Speaker 2: back to you NEI to become a student, and I

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Speaker 2: think we should all be considering ourselves students always. All

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to do is be faithful with what God's

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Speaker 2: shown me, and so I am not coming at any

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Speaker 2: of this. I wasn't even coming at my essay as like,

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Speaker 2: oh look at me, I'm so discerning. Oh look at

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Speaker 2: all you peasants who didn't figure this out? Like that

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Speaker 2: just wasn't That's not my heart at all. As you

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Speaker 2: like introduced quite accurately, I didn't want to write this essay,

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Speaker 2: and even more so after it became a big thing

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Speaker 2: and it exploded far beyond what I ever imagined, I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, no, God, what have you done? Like

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Speaker 2: why did you give this to me for it to

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Speaker 2: now bring all these eyes on me and put me

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Speaker 2: in this role of like authority where people are People

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Speaker 2: were messaging me for months, getting in my inbox, asking

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Speaker 2: me like really deep spiritual questions on discernment and warfare

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Speaker 2: of like, hey, is this okay to do? Is this

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Speaker 2: okay to do? Not in relation to the Enneagram, and

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Speaker 2: I was like, I want to honor this like responsibility

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Speaker 2: God's given me. But boy, if I've never felt less

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Speaker 2: equipped in my life more have I never felt more

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Speaker 2: in need of God's grace and wisdom? Because the whole

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Speaker 2: essay was written on the premise that I was deceived

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Speaker 2: for like eight or ten years. I can't remember. I

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Speaker 2: get timelines mixed up, but like, I was a huge

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Speaker 2: Eneagram fan, so I'm writing this essay as an expos

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Speaker 2: on myself as someone who is easily deceived. So I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I don't wanna then put myself as this person who's

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Speaker 2: got it all figured out. But because I was able

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Speaker 2: to come at it from that perspective, I think that's

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Speaker 2: part of why the essay did so well, because it

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Speaker 2: was half academic essay and that I did a lot

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Speaker 2: a lot of research and half to die. I did

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Speaker 2: a lot of research, and I did a follow up

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Speaker 2: essay six months later with even more research. But I

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Speaker 2: was doing that and I was telling my own testimony

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Speaker 2: of like how God brought me into repenting and renouncing

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Speaker 2: the enneagram after using it faithfully for years and years

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Speaker 2: and years. I only learned about the enneagram through Christian sources.

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Speaker 2: The first time I ever heard about it was on

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Speaker 2: a Catholic podcast, and then I started following Christian enneagram coaches,

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Speaker 2: so I only knew of it in a Christian context.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know of it in any other way. And

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Speaker 2: the reason that I ended up writing this essay was

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Speaker 2: actually because my mom, God bless her. My mom is

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Speaker 2: just superwoman, and she's so good at calling me out

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Speaker 2: on my nonsense, but in a really loving way, and

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Speaker 2: I just respect her so much and I want to

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Speaker 2: honor her because she was the one who called me

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Speaker 2: one night and was like, Honey, I'm really anxious to

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Speaker 2: say this because I don't want you to get upset,

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Speaker 2: but it's been on my heart for days, and I

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Speaker 2: feel like it's the spirit prompting me to tell you.

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Speaker 2: I've been looking into the enneagram because I just it

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Speaker 2: didn't sit right with my spirit. And in my head,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking, yeah, I know, I've heard all sorts of

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Speaker 2: people have issues with this. I was like, already prepared

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Speaker 2: for what she was gonna say. I was already prepared

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Speaker 2: with my rebuttals. And she said, how much research have

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Speaker 2: you done into the backgrounds of the enneagram? And I

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Speaker 2: was like a little I know some people don't like

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Speaker 2: it because they say it has pagan origins, but like,

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Speaker 2: I've only ever known about it in the context of

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Speaker 2: how it's brought me closer to Jesus, how it's made

431
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 2: me more empathetic with other people. It's given me language

432
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 2: to understand people, It's given me self awareness in my

433
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 2: own sin nature. Like, there's no way that this could

434
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 2: be bad because even if it's got pagan origins, like

435
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 2: God's redeemed lots of pagan things, Like I had my

436
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 2: I had my argument totally ready before my mom even

437
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 2: like got to the base of what she was trying

438
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 2: to tell me, and she I was I was a

439
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 2: cow to her. To be honest, I was like really fighting.

440
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: Back and British. Is that a British term? I was

441
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: a cat?

442
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Sorry.

443
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,239
Speaker 1: What I'm talking tho, I'm like, is this is this

444
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 1: a woman thing that I don't know about? Or is

445
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: this just a British thing.

446
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 2: It's a British thing. And do you know what's funny

447
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: is like when I'm talking to an American, my full

448
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 2: American accent comes back, but my rhetoric is still British. Yeah.

449
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 2: So I was just basically I was not honoring my mom.

450
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: I was not listening to her. But like, thank god,

451
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 2: she's been dealing with my nonsense since nineteen ninety three.

452
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 2: So she pushed back and was like, just promise me

453
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 2: you'll do some research into it. And I was like, fine,

454
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 2: I'll do some research into it. And then, being an academic,

455
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: you know, I started doing research into it and I

456
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: was like oh no, oh, oh no, Like I love

457
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 2: this tool. This tool is one of the first things

458
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: that helped me understand why my husband and I argue differently.

459
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 2: And it gave me so much empathy for my husband,

460
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,239
Speaker 2: Like how could anything that's given me empathy for or

461
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 2: my husband be something that I need to renounce? And

462
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 2: I just kept researching and I kept researching, and like

463
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 2: you guys can go and read the essay because it

464
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 2: was very, very long to get the full details. But

465
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 2: like in a nutshell, it was undeniable that this so

466
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 2: the enneagram was founded in three stages by three different

467
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 2: people in different ways, and it is undeniable that at

468
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 2: all three stages from the three men who were kind

469
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 2: of like the primary quote unquote fathers of the Enneagram,

470
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 2: all of them were developing it through the use of

471
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 2: occult practices, all of them. And then when it got

472
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 2: taken and brought into don't quote me on this, but

473
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 2: I believe it was the Catholic Church with a group

474
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: of Jesuit priests where it was first taught, and it

475
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 2: got used and adapted into a Christian context there, and

476
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 2: that's how it then started to hit kind of mainstream

477
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 2: Christianity over time in the US especially, and it's taken

478
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: off in charismatic circles, but it was used in Catholic

479
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 2: circles as well for.

480
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: A while, and so and just as recently, by the way,

481
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: in the last you know, maybe ten years, it's like

482
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: every major Christian publisher has published multiple books related to

483
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: the enneagram, right, And like I remember there was a

484
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: joke when I published my latest book the publisher when

485
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: I was meeting with them, they were talking about just

486
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: what they're starting to look for, and they're like, yeah,

487
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,479
Speaker 1: we're just enneagrammed out right. Like then their point was

488
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: we've like we've beat this horse, We've done it. And

489
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: and so I think to your point, like it then

490
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: exploded right on.

491
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: You absolutely exploded. And I do just want to acknowledge

492
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 2: like God works through anything, and when people say this

493
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: has really helped me, that is like glory to God

494
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: that he will even use the devil's old own schemes

495
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 2: to bring glory back to himself and to love on

496
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: his kids. So I am not diminishing that it was helpful.

497
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: I'm not And I just want I just I want

498
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: people to hear that, right, And I think we can

499
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: get back into that, especially when we talk about that

500
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: that kind of question I opened up with about like

501
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: can pagan things be redeemed right? Because I think that

502
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: that's a good discussion point. But is that you are

503
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: not saying that that no good has has come of this, right?

504
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: I mean Roman's one point. Yeah, it's like that God

505
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: can use nature, right, you know. So I think I

506
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: just wanted to I just wanted to point that out.

507
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And and for me, like that's a testament too.

508
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: I really really need if you haven't switched off the

509
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: podcast yet and you're like already getting grumpy with me,

510
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 2: I really need you to hear that I am not

511
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: a fundamentalist Christian who is like looking for the boogeyman

512
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: in every closet and thinks that everything's pagan. I have

513
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 2: been accused of being a witch because I lead people

514
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: in liturgical prayer, Celtic liturgical prayer, as in like the yeah,

515
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: the liturgies of the Celtic saints who brought Christianity to

516
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: my country, to Britain. I lead prayer and creative writing

517
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 2: sessions for my paid subscribers on substack, And when I

518
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: first launched that, I was accused of being a witch

519
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 2: because of the history of the Celts and the Celtic

520
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: crosses that were pagan before they were redeemed by the Church,

521
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 2: and the cross specifically was redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

522
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 2: But that's a whole other thing. But like I just

523
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: need you to hear, I am not one of those

524
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 2: people that thinks the world is black and white, where

525
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 2: everything is either of Satan or of God. I am

526
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 2: someone who.

527
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: Likely believe that finds Satan in the monster can Yeah, yeah.

528
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe everything, everything belongs to God, everything right,

529
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 2: Satan's already lost and we don't need to be afraid.

530
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean we don't need to be discerning.

531
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 2: Like it's that whole be shrewd tos, serpents and innocent

532
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: as doves right, I don't need to be afraid that

533
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: everything's satanic. But also I need to pay attention because

534
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: there is a movement within the particularly within the Charismatic movement.

535
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 2: And like I used to worship at a charismatic church.

536
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 2: I'm not saying this but it's all charismatic churches. But

537
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: I've seen within the Charismatic movement certain churches really adopting

538
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 2: New Age practices under the guise of redeeming them. And

539
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 2: as as someone who cares so much about wanting to

540
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: know the truth that I am going back to university

541
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: to try to understand and wrestle with all this. And

542
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 2: to be clear, I'm not being given clear cut answers.

543
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: I'm being told how gray a lot of this stuff is.

544
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 2: But I think it matters that we question it. I

545
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 2: think it matters that we're not just spoon fed. I

546
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 2: think it matters that we ask God, like, where does

547
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 2: this come from? And how is it leading me back

548
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: to you? How is leading me back to your truth?

549
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 2: And I do believe from the extensive research that I've done,

550
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 2: and we can get into that in a minute if.

551
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: You yeah, I want to get into that next.

552
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 2: The enneagram is a trojan horse that is part of

553
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 2: a wider ecosystem of New Age infiltration in the church.

554
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: I do believe that. I also don't think we need

555
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: to be afraid of everything and that the boogeyman's in

556
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: every closet, So like, can you hold those two tensions?

557
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 2: I'm hoping so, because That's where I'm at.

558
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So let's get into some of that history.

559
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: You said that there's there's kind of three godfathers, if

560
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: you will, of an uneagram, and all of them used

561
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: ocult practices, and I think I would love to hear,

562
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: like explain that to us, tell us about this. And

563
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,719
Speaker 1: I think there's especially there's at least one if I

564
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: remember right that like I mean like seances and like

565
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: a spirit was moving his hand or something. I mean

566
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: that's where I started to get scared and kind of

567
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: wake up or be like oh no, So tell us

568
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: about that.

569
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 2: Okay. One thing I want to say before I jump

570
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: into that is that there are Christian enneagram coaches who

571
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: put out resources that I have read and researched, and

572
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 2: they are going to actively dispute what I'm about to

573
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 2: share with you. They're going to say, oh, that's a

574
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: misrepresentation of the facts, or oh, that was a sensationalized story,

575
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: but that here's what the guy actually meant. The guy

576
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: you're talking about who was being possessed, whose hand was

577
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 2: moving on his own as he was writing the enneagram.

578
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: There are multiple videos of him sharing in detail what

579
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: that experience was like. When a couple of years ago

580
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 2: a lot of Christians started to wake up to the

581
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: origins of the enneagram from this particular man's testimony. His

582
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 2: name I might be mispronouncing it. I'm sorry if I am,

583
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 2: but Claudio Neuronio. This is one of the godfathers of

584
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: the enneagram, and he there's a video where he talks

585
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: about how he wrote the enneagram through a process called

586
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: automatic writing, and immediately Christians were like, automatic writing, that

587
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: sounds like possession, Like that doesn't sound good. And so

588
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 2: there started to be more exposes on the enneagram and

589
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 2: Christians saying the eneogram's not a good tool, it was

590
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: kind of developed through demon possession. Christians shouldn't use it.

591
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 2: And then I saw resources from Christian eneagram coaches pushing back,

592
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 2: going oh no, no, no, that's not what he meant

593
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 2: by automatic writing. That's not what he meant like that's

594
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: been taken and we've had like a panic reaction to it.

595
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 2: But that's not what he meant. And in fact, a

596
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 2: lot of users of the eneagram went to Claudi O

597
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 2: and aer on you afterwards and was like, do you

598
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 2: realize that what you said in that interview is causing

599
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: like such a chaos amongst the Christian community, Like you

600
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,959
Speaker 2: need to clarify, You need to clarify. Don't worry, guys,

601
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: that's not what he meant. He wasn't demon possessed. This

602
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 2: is resources from Christian aneagram coaches that you're citing this

603
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: testament that cit yeah, correct, yes so. And I'm not

604
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 2: using the names of any of these Christian enneagram coaches

605
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 2: because at no point do I want to smear anybody

606
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 2: in the body of Christ. That's not what I'm here

607
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 2: to do, even if I strongly disagree with them, It's

608
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: not what I'm here to do. But what I want

609
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 2: to kind of just push back on that narrative from

610
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 2: these aneagram coaches is with saying there are other videos

611
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 2: of Claudio Nuranio where he shares in detail what he

612
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: meant by automatic writing. As he's developing the version of

613
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 2: the enneagram that we know of today as like a

614
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 2: personality test, where he literally says, I felt like something

615
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 2: was trying to write through me, and I sat down

616
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 2: and I had my pen in my hand, and I

617
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: started writing. And it was like I got a sense like, no,

618
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 2: that's not what it is. That's not what it is,

619
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 2: that's not what I'm supposed to be writing. And it

620
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: wasn't until I fully surrendered control of my hand and

621
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 2: my body and I watched my hand move on its

622
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 2: own that the development of the enneagram was like written

623
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 2: down on the page. He explains in detail that he

624
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 2: surrendered his faculties and that his hand was moving without

625
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,879
Speaker 2: his own free will dictating the hand. So that kind

626
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: of refutes these Christian ninneagram coaches who were like, that's

627
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: not what he meant by automatic writing. He went, he

628
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 2: meant me just like went into this kind of trance

629
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 2: state of like flow with he was just really in

630
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: the zone while he was writing. No, no, no, I

631
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: go into like a state of flow when I'm writing.

632
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: If I'm in the zone, my husband can tell because

633
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,280
Speaker 2: I'm typing like to save the world. I'm typing super

634
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 2: fast and the words are coming out. My wife but

635
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 2: I'm but I'm still in control in my hands. Right.

636
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 2: I can stop. If he's asking me what do you

637
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 2: want for dinner? I can stop and look at him

638
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 2: and be like, chicken. You know this guy is saying

639
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 2: I wasn't controlling my body anymore. Something else was controlling

640
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 2: it for me.

641
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: And I just want to take a time out there,

642
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: because maybe there's some people who are like, well, but

643
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 1: don't we believe the Bible was inspired and written in

644
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: a say and what I wanted to quemorify for people

645
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: having gone through some and study. This is when we

646
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: talk about inspiration related to the writing of scripture, we

647
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: are not actually Orthodox teaching is not that the Bible

648
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: writers were inspired in the sense of their bodies were

649
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 1: taking over the Holy Spirit is literally like writing their

650
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: hands and they are just a tool. That is That

651
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: is actually not the orthodox teaching of the Church for

652
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: thousands of years. Inspired does not mean taken over. It

653
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 1: means it is this kind of the Holy Spirit kind

654
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: of prompts and and and and that's why we see

655
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: and can see some human elements of UH that come

656
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 1: through in the writing. Right, even Paul Right, Paul talks

657
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: about in the Gospels Hey, by the way, this is

658
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 1: me talking. This is me talking. I just want I

659
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: just want to be clear, this is me, you know.

660
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to make that point clear. All right,

661
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: So tell us more about mister Claudio.

662
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad you clarified that as well, because there

663
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 2: it's it's really important to reinforce that, like everything that

664
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: we see that is satanic is a counterfeit of what

665
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: God does. So like if we're trying to say, oh, no, no,

666
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 2: but God does that too, as a way of justifying

667
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 2: what satanic, it's like, well, no, because it all starts

668
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 2: with God, and then there's a corruption in a twisting.

669
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: And God's character does not override our free will. We

670
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 2: partnered with him in the way that his church wrote

671
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 2: the scriptures through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. But

672
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,280
Speaker 2: God honors our freedom by not taking over our literal

673
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 2: faculties and causing us to like and that is so

674
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: much in the holy character of God. Right, He literally

675
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 2: died on the cross so that we could freely choose

676
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: to be in a relationship with Him rather than to

677
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 2: just compel us all into righteousness, you know. So that's

678
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 2: a good point that you made. So Okay, Claudi on Iranyu.

679
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 2: So he's like the most recent of the three Godfathers.

680
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: So if we're kind of talking in three stages, Claudion

681
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 2: Iranyo is the guy who openly states, despite what some

682
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 2: Christian Enneagram coaches would say, he does openly describe in

683
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 2: detail that he was possessed in order to write the

684
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 2: version of the enneagram that we know it as today

685
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 2: is a personality test. Okay. It wasn't always used exactly

686
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 2: in the way that we use it with the nine

687
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 2: or like the nine different personality types and the wings.

688
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 2: It wasn't used that explicitly as a way to like

689
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 2: type our personalities, but it was starting to get there

690
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 2: with the second of the three Godfathers. So Claudion Iranyu's

691
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 2: mentor was a guy called Oscar. Again might mispronounce his name,

692
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 2: I'm I'm going to say Oscar Akaso, and he taught

693
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 2: at a place called the Erica Arika Institute. I should

694
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 2: have checked these pronunciations before jumping on the podcast, but

695
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 2: part of my ignorance, he taught at this institute, where

696
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:10,280
Speaker 2: he explains in detail in a document that he wrote

697
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 2: that's called the Letter to the Transpersonal Community I'll get

698
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 2: to that in a second. He explains in detail a

699
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: lot of the different kind of schools of life, if

700
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: you will, that he attended and learned from through different

701
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 2: like Eastern mystics and like he basically just like trapes

702
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 2: across the world and learned a lot about different forms

703
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: of spirituality and then created his own system which he

704
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 2: teaches at the Erica Institute or taught, I'm not sure

705
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 2: if that's still a thing or not. And part of

706
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 2: it was the enneagram, but the enneagram was a tool

707
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 2: and a system being used for like self understanding that

708
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 2: was built around all of these other aspects of his

709
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 2: kind of occult practices, and he describes those in detail.

710
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: Again.

711
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 2: One particular Christian eneogram coach released document where he tries

712
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 2: to explain and reassure Christians why the enneagram is absolutely

713
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: okay to use if you're a Christian, and he cites

714
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 2: this letter to the trans Personal Community that Oscar Acaso

715
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 2: wrote okay. And he does this to combat another sort

716
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 2: of like red flag panic that Christians were bringing to

717
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 2: the table over the enneagram argument. So the second thing

718
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 2: that a lot of Christians were finding out was that

719
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 2: as they were researching the story of the Enneagram. Oscar Acaso,

720
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 2: So this is guy number two in the Three Guys

721
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 2: was visited by a demon who was in some documents

722
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 2: referred to as the archangel Metatron, in some articles was

723
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: referred to as like the green Coutub. There's a lot

724
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 2: of different conflicting narratives which side note. Can I just

725
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: say this is really common with occultic things. You get

726
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,720
Speaker 2: a lot of conflicting historical accounts that cause chaos. Satan

727
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: likes chaos, he likes things to not be clear. So

728
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 2: there's a lot of like conflicting stories about Oscar Akazo

729
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 2: being supposedly visited by this demon to help inspire his

730
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 2: writing of the Enneagram as like a self understanding tool,

731
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 2: not the full on personality types that we have now,

732
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 2: but as like a self understanding tool. So this Christian

733
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 2: enneagram coach, who I was like reading all of his

734
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: material on this was like, that's a myth, that is

735
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 2: like a sensationalized myth. He was never visited by the

736
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 2: archangel Medatron. He was never visited by the green Futab,

737
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 2: none of that. And I can tell you that because

738
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 2: I read his writings in his letter to the transpersonal community. Okay,

739
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 2: so you don't need to worry guys like it's it

740
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 2: doesn't have demonic roots. Claudio Iranyo, he wasn't talking about

741
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,359
Speaker 2: being possessed when he was talking about automatic writing, and

742
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 2: Oscar Akazo was not visited by the archangel Metatron. He

743
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 2: even says so in his letter to the trans personal community,

744
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 2: don't worry. This is all fake news. That's what this

745
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 2: particular Christian Enneagram coach was was writing about. And so

746
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm gonna read the letter to the transpersonal community.

747
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 2: I'm gonna see what it.

748
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: Says original sources as a true academic.

749
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, so full disclosure. This letter to the transpersonal community.

750
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 2: I think it was like one hundred pages long or

751
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 2: close to it. I didn't read the whole thing, but

752
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 2: I read a good chunk. I read a really good chunk.

753
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 2: A lot of it is just waffling about his frustration

754
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 2: with Claudio Nuranio because it was part of like a

755
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 2: legal pr intellectual property battle as to who founded the

756
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 2: Enneagram right, because Claudio Nuranio was an apprentice under Oscar

757
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 2: Acazo and then he was the Nuranyo kind of took

758
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 2: it to the States. And exploded it into what it

759
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 2: is today. And there from what I could gather reading

760
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 2: this like just pages and pages and pages of rage

761
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 2: from Oscar Acazo, was to be like, I alone am

762
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: the founder of the Enneagram, and Claudio Nuranyo was trying

763
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,479
Speaker 2: to besmirch my character by making up this story about

764
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 2: how I was visited by the archangel Metatron, just so

765
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 2: I sound like some crazy guy you know out in

766
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: the woods who you know, like it's a rage letter

767
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 2: for PR to like reclaim his ownership of the Enneagram,

768
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: and absolutely correct. He refutes this story about being visited

769
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 2: by a demon. He says, that did not happen, Okay, fine.

770
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,399
Speaker 2: In the first essay that I wrote, because I wrote

771
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 2: two essays about the Enneagram, I was still under the

772
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 2: impression that that was the narrative. And so in that

773
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 2: first essay, if you read about it, I cite a

774
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 2: cause of being visited by an archangel Metatron, bearing in

775
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 2: mind I got that information from formal statements from the

776
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 2: Catholic Church and the Gospel Coalition, so they were also

777
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 2: under the impression that that was the narrative, because those

778
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 2: are some formally reliable sources to represent both Protestant and

779
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: Catholic Christian communities. But even so, if that was refuted

780
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 2: by the man himself, I want to know about it.

781
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,760
Speaker 2: So when I started reading the Letter to the Transpersonal Community,

782
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 2: which led to my second Endiagram essay that I wrote

783
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 2: six months later, Yes, he refutes it. And then he

784
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:04,720
Speaker 2: goes on to explain in detail how he did develop

785
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: the enneagram, and he just lists all these different occultic

786
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 2: practices that he's using. So I'm like, Okay, these Christian

787
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 2: enneagram coaches are actually talking to us in bad faith,

788
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 2: because the substance is still the same even if the

789
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 2: particulars are not accurate. Maybe he wasn't visited by a demon,

790
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 2: but he was developing it through demonic practices, So you're

791
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 2: being deceptive. You know what I need to pull up.

792
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 2: I've actually got screenshots of I took a ton of

793
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 2: screenshots from the Letter to the Transpersonal Community, which I

794
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 2: put in my second article, so I would need to

795
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 2: pull some of those up. Give me a second.

796
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this.

797
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 2: Okay. So one of the bits that I have pulled up,

798
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 2: bearing in mind, guys, this is like a this is

799
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 2: so much mental spaghetti to try to disentangle all of

800
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 2: the different things that this guy mentions in his letter.

801
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: But this was a bit that I screenshotted and put

802
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 2: in my second essay on the Enneagram, where Oscarcaso says

803
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 2: in Erica, that is the Erica Institute, the fixation is

804
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 2: dissolved by acquiring an understanding of the other eight positions.

805
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 2: So he's talking about the Enneagram. This is obtained by

806
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 2: karma cleaning and not by the grace of Jesus or

807
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: any other dogmatic religious position that is completely alien to

808
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 2: the Erica system. The Erica system does not need atonement

809
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 2: for sin, priestly intercessions, sacramental rites, or dogma supported by

810
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 2: a church. The Erica system is a way of self

811
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 2: realization and a way to acquire Theosis supreme enlightenment in

812
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 2: this one life by the personal effort of the practitioner,

813
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 2: supported by the strength of a real mystical school and

814
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 2: a teaching that proves its ontological basis for the human process,

815
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 2: as is clearly observed in the Erica Five Supreme Determinants.

816
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: Wow, so.

817
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 2: I know that doesn't directly answer your question, and that

818
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 2: I there are other screenshots I think I took, Like, Yeah,

819
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 2: so people can read through. It does explain how whilst

820
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 2: I didn't say specifically like here's all of the new

821
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 2: Asian occultic practices that he used, this is kind of

822
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 2: like the meat of it in which he says, here's

823
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 2: what this all culminates to. The development of my system

824
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: is obtained through karma cleaning, not by the grace of Jesus.

825
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 2: And we do not need atonement for sin, priestly intercessions,

826
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:41,439
Speaker 2: sacramental rites, or any dogma supported by the Church. Yes,

827
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 2: I recognize that that is not what Christian enneagram coaches teach.

828
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 2: They teach the enneagram as a tool which points us

829
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 2: back to our need for Jesus. I recognize that, And

830
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 2: we can talk more about like the redemption of pagan tools.

831
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 2: But if we are just first acknowledging the history of

832
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 2: this tool, the letters being cited by these enneagram coaches

833
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 2: to support it as acceptable for use by Christians, those articles,

834
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 2: when you go back to the root source, are in

835
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 2: and of themselves proclaiming demonic doctrines. We do not need

836
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 2: the grace of Jesus Christ, we do not need atonement

837
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 2: for sin anti Christ absolutely and John That is just

838
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 2: the first two of the three godfathers of the Enneagram. Okay,

839
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 2: I could keep going.

840
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: Well, let's go, let's I'd love to kind of do

841
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: an intro basically to all three and people can go

842
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: read the articles that are linked. But okay, so we

843
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 1: talked about Claudia, we talked about a Cazo akazo, and yeah,

844
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: then there's then there's kind of like the origin guy.

845
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:49,399
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Hank.

846
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, the origin guy. Give me two seconds to scroll

847
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,439
Speaker 2: back up to the quotes that I have about him,

848
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 2: because this is also in that second article that I wrote.

849
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 2: I think I'm there. Yeah, I got it. Okay, So

850
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 2: the first guy that we know of, and this is

851
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,479
Speaker 2: all I believe on the Enneagram's official website as well,

852
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 2: I believe these men are cited, but particularly this man,

853
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 2: because this guy was the first one to start developing

854
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 2: the enneagram in any sort of concept. But it was not,

855
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 2: I want to be clear, it was not at any

856
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 2: point with this first guy used as a personality tool

857
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 2: or a tool for self actualization. It was like a

858
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 2: wider kind of physics, rule of life, musical laws type

859
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 2: of concept is a lot more nebulous. It does not

860
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 2: from this initial founder look anything like the Enneagram as

861
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 2: we know it today, but there is continuity. What we

862
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 2: have today was developed based on the foundations of this

863
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 2: first guy. Again pronunciations, please forgive me, but the way

864
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: I pronounce it is George Gurchief was the initial kind

865
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 2: of founder of the Enneagram. And I just wanted to

866
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 2: you read to you again. These are quotes from Oscar

867
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 2: Acazo in his letter to the Transpersonal Community, where he

868
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 2: is talking about the origins of the Enneagram and the

869
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 2: history of it and what was developed on. And I

870
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 2: wanted to read this. So this is a quote that

871
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:21,720
Speaker 2: is talking about George Gurdjief. Okay, So Gurdjief was saying,

872
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 2: sometimes it was better to pray to Judas than to

873
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 2: pray to God. When he is drunk, he prays to Judas.

874
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 2: There we go. We brought the Christian alcoholic thing in.

875
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 2: When he is drunk, he prays to Judas. But then

876
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 2: I am always drunk, he says, So he always prays

877
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 2: to Judas. And in the entry for August twenty eighth

878
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 2: we read this morning several of us got together to

879
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,879
Speaker 2: reconstruct what George Gurujief has said about the role of Judas.

880
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 2: Not only was Judas the direct and efficient cause of

881
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 2: Jesus being for two thousand years God to half mankind.

882
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 2: But his was the supreme role. I do not I

883
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 2: do not often pray to God. This is a quote

884
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 2: from him from George Gourd Chief. I believe I do

885
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 2: not often pray to God. I do not wish to

886
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 2: disturb his endlessness. But when I am drunk, I pray

887
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 2: to Judas a pause, and I am nearly always drunk.

888
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 2: He spoke very extravagantly about the role of Judas as

889
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 2: the only one, really self conscious, self sacrificing role, the

890
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 2: true great one, and great one is spelled with a

891
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 2: capital G. Of the Christian event of Jesus as only

892
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 2: quote a little Jew and so on. Separating that which

893
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 2: was merely to shock newcomers, there remains the consistent teaching

894
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 2: of Judas as playing an all important part without which

895
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 2: Christianity as we know it would not have existed. So

896
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 2: there is.

897
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:58,879
Speaker 1: Chaoation of Judas, because without Judas, Jesus won't be crucified.

898
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 1: You know, here would be betrayal, and which which there

899
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: are strains of. You know, it's an old hair. Maybe

900
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 1: I shouldn't call heresy. What the church hasn't officially called

901
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: the heresy, but there have been ideas floated that hey

902
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:18,399
Speaker 1: without Judas, like hey, let's not.

903
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,879
Speaker 2: That's not that's not. Oh no, that's a thing. That's

904
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 2: a thing John and like an in Luciferian cults, Judas

905
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 2: is deified. So there is chaos in these conflicting stories

906
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 2: of the development of the Enneagram, which people like to

907
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 2: play on to justify it because they like it, or

908
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 2: even potentially because their business is built on on making.

909
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 1: Money from teaching it business their platform their Instagram followers.

910
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything would fall on Gails yep if they didn't

911
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 2: play off of the chaos and the conflicting stories, which

912
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 2: allow you to then extract a narrative, extract a storyline

913
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 2: which says, hey, it's okay to use it as a

914
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 2: Christian those stories about its demonic you know, developments and origins. Look,

915
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 2: there's this other story over here which conflicts with that.

916
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 2: I went straight to the source of one of the

917
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 2: founders and where there is chaos in all of these

918
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 2: conflicting stories, what I have found is continuity of the

919
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 2: true goal around the development of the Enneagram, to say

920
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,479
Speaker 2: we do not need Jesus, that Judas was our guy.

921
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 2: Judas was the real, you know, self actualizing one. And

922
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 2: what we really need is self actualization. We don't need

923
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,760
Speaker 2: atonement from sin. We don't need the grace of Jesus.

924
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 2: Akaso says this as well as George Gurjief Right. So

925
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 2: we're going through decades and decades and decades. There is

926
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 2: a one consistent theme through the development of these tools

927
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 2: in their various stages, and that is a spirit of Antichrist.

928
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 2: That that is consistent. What does Satan want for us

929
00:53:57,239 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 2: to not repent of our sins and come into the

930
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 2: Kingdom of God, to not believe that we need the

931
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 2: grace of Jesus. So am I saying that if you've

932
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 2: used the enneagram, that you are under a spirit of Antichrist. No, Okay,

933
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 2: I still have more empathy for my husband because I

934
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 2: learned that he thinks the way an Enneagram nine is

935
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:19,240
Speaker 2: described to think. Because everything, ultimately, especially for God's children,

936
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,399
Speaker 2: submits to the glory of God. And we are under

937
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,760
Speaker 2: the blood of Jesus and we're protected. But that doesn't

938
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:26,879
Speaker 2: mean that we shut our eyes and ignore what's brought

939
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 2: right in front of us. And that is what I

940
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 2: could not do when I started researching this, I was like,

941
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 2: I can't and I can't roll over and let these

942
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 2: other narratives that are being put out by Christians that

943
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 2: are citing documents which refute the Christian's argument to fly.

944
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 2: I can't do that. I absolutely if I go to

945
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 2: the source and it's continuously telling me that like Luciferian

946
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 2: principles were the foundation of the development of this tool,

947
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 2: I have to care about that, and hence that's why

948
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 2: I wrote my essay. So there we go.

949
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: Okay, and so you used a term. First of all,

950
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: thank you, and and again I would just direct people

951
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 1: to the show notes where those two articles are linked

952
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 1: to get in even more in depth of a look

953
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 1: at the sources and whatnot. So earlier in the podcast,

954
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 1: you you use two words. You said that you have

955
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 1: now come to repent from and renounce the enneagram. Explain

956
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: explain that, right, and you might be and people are like, well,

957
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,439
Speaker 1: she just talked about lucifer and principles, right, But but

958
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 1: but there's also like there's also this other thing of

959
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: like God can redeem stuff, and I want to get

960
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 1: to that. But but why did your conviction become I've

961
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 1: read this, I don't you know, you don't feel right

962
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 1: about using it, and so you've gotten to the renounced

963
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 1: and we describe that and explain that for us.

964
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm trying to figure out there's a couple different

965
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 3: places I could start with this, and I'm trying to

966
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 3: figure out, like so many stories aren't linear, even though

967
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 3: we tell them in a linear way in our books.

968
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 2: But I think there were two coinciding things that happened

969
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 2: at the same time. The first one was and you

970
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 2: can read more about this in the first essay that

971
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 2: I publish on the Enneagram. That one's titled The Truth

972
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 2: about the Enneagram that turned my blood cold. Okay, So

973
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 2: in the development of writing that first essay, there was

974
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 2: some divine providence because I was in the process of

975
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 2: rereading Surprised by Joy by C. S.

976
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:43,720
Speaker 1: Lewis.

977
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 2: That's one of my favorite books from him, because I

978
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:51,280
Speaker 2: love being taken on a journey from an intellectual who

979
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 2: was a little bit fascinated by paganism and how he eventually,

980
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 2: both intellectually and spiritually yielded to the truth of theism

981
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 2: and then ultimately to the truth of Christ. And there

982
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 2: was a section in that book which I am not

983
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 2: going to try to explain on the podcast, because I

984
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:08,760
Speaker 2: won't do it justice and I'll trip over my words.

985
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 2: It's far easier to write about it. But there's a

986
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 2: section at the end of C. S. Lewis's testimony of

987
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 2: conversion where he basically explains that let me see if

988
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 2: I can get this right. No, I'm not gonna try.

989
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 2: I'm gonna speak in really simplistic terms and encourage you

990
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 2: to go and read the essay. But effectively he uses

991
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 2: a metaphor for understanding that his like deep desire, this

992
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 2: he calls it joy, like this deep desire of this hunger,

993
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 2: this yearning that he's had inside himself for so long,

994
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 2: and he's not been able to pinpoint what it is,

995
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 2: and it would overwhelm him in these like snapshot moments

996
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 2: throughout life where he just had like this feeling of

997
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 2: what he calls the northernness, like this longing, this this

998
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 2: deep need for home, but he doesn't know like what

999
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 2: it is or what's causing it. And for so long

1000
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 2: he was a assuming that whatever book he was reading

1001
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,479
Speaker 2: that caused that feeling, or whatever landscape he was looking

1002
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 2: at that caused that feeling, that that was the object

1003
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 2: of his desire, and he finally realized through studying a

1004
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 2: philosopher that actually know the desire was pointing him to

1005
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 2: something else. And he'd been tripping up for so long

1006
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 2: trying to chase the desire for its own end, like

1007
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 2: the feeling of the desire was so pleasurable to him

1008
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 2: that he was chasing desire for desire's own sake. And

1009
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 2: then when he realized that designer desire was pointing to God,

1010
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 2: it was like everything came into alignment. I don't know why, Like,

1011
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, this particular quote that I put into

1012
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 2: the essay it made sense to me in that it

1013
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 2: intellectually explained why the way in which the enneagram is

1014
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 2: set up is designed to make us look to it

1015
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 2: first for its own sake, even when we say that

1016
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 2: we're looking to it to help us bring us closer

1017
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 2: to God. And I want to just be perfectly clear here,

1018
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 2: every Christian neagram coach that I have ever learned from

1019
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 2: that is how they've taught the enneagram is it's a

1020
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 2: tool to bring you closer to God. It's a tool

1021
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 2: to make you more aware of your sin patterns so

1022
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 2: that you can go to God for redemption. And I

1023
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 2: don't deny that they're sincere in that message. But something

1024
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 2: in me clicked and I got this picture. It was

1025
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 2: such a simple picture of three dots on a page.

1026
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 2: My friend Isaac later helped me develop it into this

1027
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:27,959
Speaker 2: concept of a solar eclipse that was kind of cool.

1028
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 2: But the picture I got in the moment when I

1029
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 2: knew I needed to renounce the Enneagram was three dots

1030
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 2: on a page, and the dot at the top was God,

1031
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 2: and the dot at the bottom was me, and the

1032
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 2: dot at the side was the Eneagram. And the Eneagram

1033
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 2: was demanding that I looked to it first, and only

1034
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 2: through its lens could I could I look to God. Second,

1035
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 2: I had to understand myself through its lens in order

1036
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 2: to see God. Now, I do want to just say

1037
00:59:55,880 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 2: very quickly that revelation has developed since then, because I

1038
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 2: realized that in its simplest form, that could be taken

1039
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 2: to be like, well, don't look to pastors, don't read

1040
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 2: about the lives of the saints, don't look to anything

1041
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 2: else to understand God better. And I don't believe that

1042
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 2: to be perfectly clear, Like I'm not saying we don't

1043
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 2: look to other like the heavens declare the glory of God.

1044
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 2: The skies proclaimed the work of his hands. Everything that

1045
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 2: we look at is going to point us to God.

1046
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 2: So I'm not saying we can't use tools to look

1047
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 2: to God. What I'm saying is that the revelation I

1048
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 2: had in that moment was that the enneagram had skin

1049
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 2: in the game on my very identity, like the deepest

1050
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 2: part of who I was. And so I was thinking

1051
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 2: through the lens of myself as a four wing three

1052
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 2: to understand my sin, to understand where I needed to repent.

1053
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 2: It was filtering what type of things I needed to

1054
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 2: repent for. I know people have accused me. I got

1055
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 2: so much pushback on my essays, so I've heard it all.

1056
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 2: But like a lot of people have accused me of

1057
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 2: being like, well, you weren't using it right, you weren't

1058
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 2: using it right, Okay, fine, I studied it, like I

1059
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:10,720
Speaker 2: was obsessed with the enneagram for like eight years. I

1060
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 2: was a student of the enneagram. So if I didn't

1061
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 2: use it right, fine, maybe I'm just an idiot and

1062
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 2: I got it wrong. But I am not the right

1063
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 2: I'm not the only person I know who did this.

1064
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:22,920
Speaker 1: Though.

1065
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,439
Speaker 2: Here's the thing. I know a lot of Christians who

1066
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:28,720
Speaker 2: will identify, Like the first thing they'll say to explain

1067
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:30,919
Speaker 2: who they are to people is I'm a four, And yeah,

1068
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 2: I get it. Languid, having simple language is so helpful.

1069
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 2: I get that. But the mouth speaks the overflow of

1070
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 2: the heart. Right, And when we start to come into

1071
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 2: agreement with particular patterns, whether we like it or not,

1072
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 2: it means that we are putting blinkers on and we

1073
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 2: are being blind to other patterns of a full dynamic

1074
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 2: of who we are in both our strengths and our sins. Yeah,

1075
01:01:55,920 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 2: when I realized that I was only understanding my self

1076
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 2: is God's creation through my identity as an ideogram for

1077
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 2: and maybe perfectly clear, A lot of the things about

1078
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 2: the enneagram four are true about me? Right, Yes, I

1079
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:11,919
Speaker 2: am creative, I am an achiever like the four ween three,

1080
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 2: I am those things. And you know, we read in

1081
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 2: the Bible like it talks about the terrorisms, Like this

1082
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 2: idea of having different personality types and different gifts and

1083
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 2: different strengths and weaknesses. That's biblical, there's nothing wrong with that.

1084
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 2: But the enneagram is so intricate, and that it creates

1085
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 2: this entire ecosystem by which you think about how to

1086
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 2: relate to others, how to relate to yourself, like what

1087
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 2: kind of sins you struggle with. I remember feeling really

1088
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 2: seen when the Enneagram four had described the sin of jealousy,

1089
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 2: because I'd always felt this jealousy of other people's artistic

1090
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 2: gifts and it made me feel like I wasn't good enough.

1091
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 2: But then I only started to really think about myself

1092
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 2: through the lens of my jealousy as like a sin,

1093
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 2: and like I was vaguely aware of the fact that

1094
01:02:57,360 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 2: one of my other sins that I struggled with that

1095
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 2: didn't fit the Enneagram four type was that I would

1096
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 2: like lose my temper with my husband, okay, And so

1097
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 2: there was still like the Holy Spirit working on me

1098
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 2: to be like, you're not just the sins of the four,

1099
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 2: like you do commit other types of sins. But on

1100
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 2: the whole I got really like, I got really focused

1101
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 2: on thinking about my sins and my weaknesses through the

1102
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:19,080
Speaker 2: lens of the four, but also my strengths, to the

1103
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 2: point that John get this. I actually would tell myself.

1104
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:24,960
Speaker 2: And again, if you're listening and you're like, well, you

1105
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 2: didn't use it, right, fine, I didn't use it right,

1106
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 2: It wasn't the right tool for me. Then I would

1107
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 2: tell myself, because I'm not an enneagram five, I'm not

1108
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 2: really academic. I'm not really because that's the cerebral type.

1109
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 2: And in every quiz I've ever taken, in every workbook

1110
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 2: I've ever done, I never fit the cerebral type of

1111
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 2: the enneagram five. So like I wasn't, I wasn't destined

1112
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 2: for Oxford. Like as much as I like it, that's

1113
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 2: not my bag. I'm the artist, I'm the artsy feely,

1114
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 2: and I was mistaking my academia for just the achiever

1115
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:02,440
Speaker 2: energy of the three that must be it. Now, let

1116
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 2: me be clear here there are almost certainly a lot

1117
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:08,680
Speaker 2: of discerning Christians who do not yield to the enneagram

1118
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 2: in that way. Okay, I am a malleable little soul.

1119
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 2: And I felt so like touchy feely scene by the

1120
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:20,400
Speaker 2: creative description of the enneagram Ford that I just gave

1121
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:22,560
Speaker 2: my whole heart to it, like a little hopeless romantic

1122
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 2: And that was not discerning of me, but it was.

1123
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:29,479
Speaker 2: It was. And it does demand you to come into

1124
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 2: agreement with your patterns. It goes beyond just helping you

1125
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 2: with self awareness and compassion for others and giving you

1126
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 2: language to describe certain things. It goes beyond that. It

1127
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:46,959
Speaker 2: encourages you to come into agreement with your patterns. And

1128
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 2: those patterns, yes, they exist. We all have patterns, We

1129
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 2: have habits, we have addictions. Some people have strengths that

1130
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 2: other people don't have. Some people have weaknesses that other

1131
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:58,560
Speaker 2: people don't have. We all have those types of things.

1132
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,000
Speaker 2: Butimilarly to how I would say, like when I got

1133
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:06,360
Speaker 2: my OCD diagnosis, it gave me clarity and understanding about myself. Yeah,

1134
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 2: but then it gave me something to name, to say,

1135
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 2: I do not come into agreement with this as who

1136
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 2: I am. I am a person who struggles with obsessive

1137
01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 2: compulsive disorder. I think diagnoses are extremely helpful. I think

1138
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 2: that they give us language and understanding to explain ourselves

1139
01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:28,120
Speaker 2: to others and to ourselves. But when we surrender our

1140
01:05:28,160 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 2: whole identity to it, and we come into agreement with

1141
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 2: it and say this is all I am, and my

1142
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 2: relationship with Christ is filtered through this, Rather than the

1143
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 2: invitation of the Bible, which is to first of all,

1144
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 2: pray for all the terroisms right, pray for all the

1145
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 2: spiritual gifts to be fully sanctified in righteousness and holiness,

1146
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 2: which means developing as a whole person, not just through

1147
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:58,480
Speaker 2: that pattern of your enneagram type. For me, that was

1148
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 2: the effect that it had on me once I I

1149
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 2: was willing to name it. The other reason that I

1150
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 2: wanted to repent, apart from getting that three dot picture

1151
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 2: that I believe God gave me, was that when I

1152
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 2: realized how I cannot overstate how much I love and

1153
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:17,479
Speaker 2: respect my mom. Okay, my mom out of nowhere became

1154
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 2: a single mom when I was eighteen, and became a

1155
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:23,840
Speaker 2: kidney dialysis technician and was getting up at four am

1156
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:26,440
Speaker 2: every day and working thirteen hour days to take care

1157
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:30,840
Speaker 2: of her kids, and continues to shepherd me and be

1158
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 2: like a spiritual leader in my life, and all she

1159
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 2: wants is to follow Jesus, I cannot overstate how much

1160
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 2: I love and respect my mom. I was so disrespectful

1161
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 2: to her in fighting back on the enneagram, and when

1162
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 2: I realized I will go to bat for the uneagram,

1163
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:50,560
Speaker 2: that strongly that I will disrespect my mom and be

1164
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 2: quite frankly like flippant and rude to her and talk

1165
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 2: down to her and belittle her, and assume that I

1166
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:02,160
Speaker 2: know more than she does, like fully embody my pride, which,

1167
01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 2: by the way, pride isn't mentioned as one of the

1168
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:07,040
Speaker 2: main struggles of the Enneagram, for that's one for the

1169
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:13,520
Speaker 2: eight okay, right, And yet I was fully embodying my pride. Yeah,

1170
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:16,040
Speaker 2: in a way that made me realize, Oh, if I'm

1171
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:18,960
Speaker 2: willing to go to bat this hard for the Enneagram,

1172
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 2: it has become an idol in my life. Oh that

1173
01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 2: doesn't go ahead.

1174
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 1: Sorry, That's another maybe kind of point of intersection, right,

1175
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:34,880
Speaker 1: because what do I talk about anything, anything that occupies

1176
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 1: a place in our life other than Jesus is an idol.

1177
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 1: And idols are addictions, right, We're all addicted to something, right, Yeah,

1178
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 1: And so I think you know what I'm hearing you

1179
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:48,120
Speaker 1: saying is that had become an idol and and perhaps

1180
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 1: in your experience it is very easy for it to

1181
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 1: become an idol for other people. And the way that

1182
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:57,640
Speaker 1: it's taught and practiced as well.

1183
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 2: Mm hm. And what I was going to say is,

1184
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:03,680
Speaker 2: like it becoming an idol in my life doesn't mean

1185
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 2: it wasn't also helpful. I think the reason I got

1186
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:11,120
Speaker 2: john people got violent with me, Like in the comment

1187
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:13,280
Speaker 2: section on my assay. I had to turn the comments off,

1188
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 2: like not like they weren't like making death threats against

1189
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 2: me or anything, I mean like violent with their words,

1190
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:24,520
Speaker 2: just being really it wasn't nice. And I just realized,

1191
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 2: like people feel very strongly about this because it's helped them,

1192
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 2: and of course we want to defend what's helped us,

1193
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 2: but it's gone beyond helping them. It's given them their

1194
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,840
Speaker 2: sense of identity. That's exactly what Satan wants. He wants

1195
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:44,439
Speaker 2: to hijack our understanding of our own identity so that

1196
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:46,320
Speaker 2: it is no longer found in Christ but found in

1197
01:08:46,360 --> 01:08:48,800
Speaker 2: something else. So when I was attacking the uneagram, I

1198
01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 2: wasn't just attacking a tool that had helped people. I

1199
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:55,599
Speaker 2: was attacking them. That's that was how they were responding,

1200
01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 2: like it was a personal attack on them. And I

1201
01:08:57,560 --> 01:08:59,280
Speaker 2: just want to be clear I said in my essay.

1202
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:01,200
Speaker 2: I think I said it in both my essays. Hey,

1203
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:02,760
Speaker 2: if you read this and at the end of it,

1204
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 2: you're a follower of a Christ who doesn't agree with me,

1205
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:06,800
Speaker 2: and you're gonna keep using it, I still like you.

1206
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:09,519
Speaker 2: I would still have dinner with you. You and I are

1207
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:11,519
Speaker 2: still part of the same body of Christ. This is

1208
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:14,479
Speaker 2: not the hill I will die on, but it is

1209
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 2: a hill that I will shout on at least, so

1210
01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:20,200
Speaker 2: you have all the facts. But people were feeling like

1211
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,720
Speaker 2: their very identity was being attacked. Because that's what the

1212
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:25,280
Speaker 2: enneagram is designed to do. You find your identity in

1213
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:27,720
Speaker 2: it in a way that goes beyond it just being

1214
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:30,120
Speaker 2: a tool to help you and give you self awareness,

1215
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 2: which is what therapy is for, which is what psychology

1216
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 2: is for. Highly endorse that have used those tools myself,

1217
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:38,799
Speaker 2: It's what helped me heal from OCD. Like I cannot

1218
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:41,439
Speaker 2: overstate that I'm not a fundamentalist Christian who thinks that

1219
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:45,760
Speaker 2: there's a boogeyman in every corner. But but this is

1220
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:49,439
Speaker 2: designed to give ask you to hand over as a

1221
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 2: sacrifice on the altar, the asher, a pole, the high

1222
01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 2: places of first and second kings your identity. That is

1223
01:09:58,080 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 2: what it's asking for.

1224
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:03,680
Speaker 1: So this is a really important point that I want

1225
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 1: people to hear. So as this podcast comes out last week,

1226
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 1: the podcast that we released last week before this one

1227
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:15,080
Speaker 1: with Christina was with Brett Smith and he talked about

1228
01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:22,080
Speaker 1: being saved from sobriety and how in his experience what

1229
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:28,240
Speaker 1: he has found is that AA has become a similar thing.

1230
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:32,320
Speaker 1: It has become the lens through which people now find

1231
01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:37,759
Speaker 1: their identity in their alcoholism. That can it be used

1232
01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:39,320
Speaker 1: for good? Can you?

1233
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:39,760
Speaker 3: Can you.

1234
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:43,960
Speaker 1: Look at the twelve steps the scripture?

1235
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:44,160
Speaker 2: Right?

1236
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:46,800
Speaker 1: One of the listen, one of our sponsors is the

1237
01:10:46,840 --> 01:10:49,360
Speaker 1: Life Recovery Bible, right, and the Life Recovery Bible takes

1238
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:51,400
Speaker 1: a look at the twelve steps through the lens of scripture.

1239
01:10:51,439 --> 01:10:54,479
Speaker 1: That's healthy, that's good, that's right. That's how I think

1240
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:57,680
Speaker 1: we need to view the twelve steps. Right. But what

1241
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 1: he found is that variety became the goal. Sobriety became

1242
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:08,880
Speaker 1: the identity alcoholic as a term of identity, not as

1243
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:11,480
Speaker 1: a term of description of what happens to you internally

1244
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:16,440
Speaker 1: or your physical draws or whatnot. That that has become

1245
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:22,040
Speaker 1: for him and so many others their savior. And I

1246
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:27,080
Speaker 1: just see so many parallels between this conversation on the

1247
01:11:27,160 --> 01:11:30,080
Speaker 1: enneagram and some of the things and the critiques that

1248
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:35,519
Speaker 1: he has and quite frankly that I share in many

1249
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 1: ways about AA. Right. I talk about listen, shoot for Jesus,

1250
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:45,559
Speaker 1: get sobriety thrown in Shoot for sobriety and you may

1251
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 1: get it but you're missing out. And when I raise

1252
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:55,040
Speaker 1: any questions or raise any pushback to what AA has become.

1253
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:58,280
Speaker 1: And similarly, there's a lot of Christians. Actually, one very

1254
01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:01,280
Speaker 1: popular Christian who wrote a best selling book on why

1255
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:04,120
Speaker 1: then Enneagram is Great wrote a best selling book on

1256
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 1: why AA and the twelve steps are like the cats

1257
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:11,680
Speaker 1: me out right? And so a lot of Christians you know,

1258
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 1: have adopted. And I don't believe that if you're a

1259
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 1: Christian you can't go to A. I'm not saying that, right.

1260
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:21,919
Speaker 1: I have a lot of friends in the AA community

1261
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 1: in a a culture. But what I when I when

1262
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,360
Speaker 1: I start to raise questions about what AA has become,

1263
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:31,639
Speaker 1: because they're like, well, it was founded on Christian principles,

1264
01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:32,880
Speaker 1: and it was found the Book of James and the

1265
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 1: Oxford Group and whatnot all true? Right? And yet a

1266
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:45,839
Speaker 1: system that has been that that can exist as a

1267
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 1: as a form of identity that doesn't point you to

1268
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:55,080
Speaker 1: Jesus but instead points you to an amorphous higher power

1269
01:12:55,600 --> 01:13:01,760
Speaker 1: and has now become perhaps what the founders never intended, right,

1270
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:06,120
Speaker 1: It's become this very new age, right, like you can

1271
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:08,719
Speaker 1: sit in a meeting and talk about how your higher

1272
01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:12,880
Speaker 1: power is the light, socket or nature or whatever, right,

1273
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:16,599
Speaker 1: and that is celebrated. But when you start talking about

1274
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,760
Speaker 1: Jesus like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, back off? Right?

1275
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:25,160
Speaker 1: And so if it's a system that is not expressly

1276
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:30,760
Speaker 1: pointing you to Jesus right as your source as the

1277
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:36,679
Speaker 1: greatest thing, when I start to question that, so many

1278
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:42,160
Speaker 1: people come against me. Why because it's become an identity.

1279
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:47,840
Speaker 1: And I think you're really hitting on something so important there.

1280
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:49,639
Speaker 1: So I guess you know we're going to release this episode,

1281
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:52,040
Speaker 1: and I'm sure we're gonna get all sorts of emails

1282
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:55,679
Speaker 1: and comments and whatnot, because not only were talking about

1283
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:57,400
Speaker 1: the enneagram, which is a sacred cow for many, and

1284
01:13:57,400 --> 01:13:59,599
Speaker 1: now we're talking about AA, which is a sacred cow

1285
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:03,120
Speaker 1: from any. But what's interesting is I think and and

1286
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:05,360
Speaker 1: and and I want to get into the next phase,

1287
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:09,400
Speaker 1: the final stage of the interview. But what I think

1288
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:16,519
Speaker 1: you're saying is is it possible to use the enneagram

1289
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:23,880
Speaker 1: in a sense a Christian way? Yes? Is it possible

1290
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:27,479
Speaker 1: to use AA and go to a meetings and use

1291
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:32,040
Speaker 1: it to point you to Jesus? Yes, but it requires

1292
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:38,920
Speaker 1: a couple things. Knowing full well what what is being taught,

1293
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:42,639
Speaker 1: what is be, what its origins are, how people are

1294
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:47,400
Speaker 1: using it right, and it requires you to be vigilant.

1295
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:50,720
Speaker 1: And so with that, now, would you agree with that?

1296
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:51,000
Speaker 1: Is that?

1297
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:51,320
Speaker 2: Is that?

1298
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 1: But correct me if I'm wrong.

1299
01:14:55,439 --> 01:14:57,760
Speaker 2: Yes, but there's a caveat.

1300
01:14:57,960 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this.

1301
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 2: I think that I think that we think we're more

1302
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 2: discerning than we are.

1303
01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:06,719
Speaker 3: Hmm.

1304
01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:08,240
Speaker 1: I would agree with that.

1305
01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:13,160
Speaker 2: So I would air so much caution there because like

1306
01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:16,559
Speaker 2: the reason that I repented and renounced was because I

1307
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:19,599
Speaker 2: realized that for me it had become the you know,

1308
01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:22,760
Speaker 2: the sacred calf, and to the point that I would

1309
01:15:22,760 --> 01:15:24,840
Speaker 2: disrespect my mom in order to defend it. And so

1310
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:29,679
Speaker 2: I repented of that idolatry. But it also made me realize, oh,

1311
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:33,760
Speaker 2: I'm someone who fancied myself pretty spiritually discerning and was

1312
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 2: deceived by this for many, many years. And so yes,

1313
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:41,800
Speaker 2: the Gospel Coalition, when they released their statement on the enneagram,

1314
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:44,519
Speaker 2: they said, you know, we wouldn't recommend it, but if

1315
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:49,320
Speaker 2: used as like a general light tool for you know,

1316
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:52,600
Speaker 2: just self understanding and compassion, like it could be harmless.

1317
01:15:53,120 --> 01:15:56,080
Speaker 2: And I would agree with that, Yes, I absolutely would.

1318
01:15:56,880 --> 01:15:59,639
Speaker 2: What I think is really difficult. Is that if we're

1319
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:02,559
Speaker 2: if you listen to this episode and go, well, I

1320
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:05,839
Speaker 2: haven't let it affect me that way. I would challenge

1321
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:11,160
Speaker 2: you to say approaching anything that has demonic origins with

1322
01:16:11,280 --> 01:16:14,720
Speaker 2: a spirit of pride is dangerous.

1323
01:16:14,360 --> 01:16:17,800
Speaker 1: And time out real quickly before because what you just

1324
01:16:17,840 --> 01:16:19,720
Speaker 1: said there, I want to be clear, I am not

1325
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:23,200
Speaker 1: saying and you're not saying this about me, but when

1326
01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:25,719
Speaker 1: I don't want people to hear that I am saying

1327
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:27,960
Speaker 1: that AA has demonic origins. I know.

1328
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:29,439
Speaker 2: I'm glad you clarified that.

1329
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:31,519
Speaker 1: I'm no, there is a difference there.

1330
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 2: Well, and I want to touch on that too in

1331
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:36,760
Speaker 2: a second, John, because there's kind of an inverse of

1332
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:39,320
Speaker 2: how you described AA that's happening with the enneagram ball.

1333
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:41,479
Speaker 2: I'll get to that in a second. What I want

1334
01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:43,759
Speaker 2: to say, and I'm not telling you as a listener

1335
01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:46,760
Speaker 2: that you're being prideful. I'm telling you that any of

1336
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:49,639
Speaker 2: us if we say, oh, that was a you problem,

1337
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:52,680
Speaker 2: but I wouldn't do that or I'm not having that problem.

1338
01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:57,599
Speaker 2: I said that to my mom. I was completely blind

1339
01:16:58,080 --> 01:17:01,519
Speaker 2: to how much I hadn't no concept of how like

1340
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:04,080
Speaker 2: much the enneagram had become an idol in my life,

1341
01:17:04,160 --> 01:17:06,280
Speaker 2: because I want to be clear, I wasn't getting up

1342
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:09,160
Speaker 2: every day and studying it like it had just become

1343
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:12,200
Speaker 2: this natural, organic tool where I would meet someone and

1344
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:14,280
Speaker 2: be like, oh, I think they're an eight because I'd

1345
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:16,599
Speaker 2: learned so much about it, I was seeing people through

1346
01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:18,680
Speaker 2: the lens of that really quickly. And that's just like

1347
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:22,760
Speaker 2: it just had integrated into the way I think. I

1348
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:25,920
Speaker 2: didn't think of it as an idol. This is the thing, Well,

1349
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:27,880
Speaker 2: we don't Sometimes we don't know what we need to

1350
01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:30,639
Speaker 2: repent from. Sometimes we don't know that we've given ourselves

1351
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:33,400
Speaker 2: over to something as much as we have. So yes,

1352
01:17:33,479 --> 01:17:35,519
Speaker 2: I would agree with what you said and that it

1353
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 2: can't it can be a tool that can be used

1354
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:39,960
Speaker 2: to help people, because I would still say it was

1355
01:17:39,960 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 2: helpful to me. However, if you're at this point in

1356
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:45,880
Speaker 2: the podcast and you're listening to this, I want to

1357
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:48,240
Speaker 2: ask you why it's something you would still want to

1358
01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:51,320
Speaker 2: use when you do know about the history of it,

1359
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:56,479
Speaker 2: unless you believe it has fully been redeemed through the

1360
01:17:56,560 --> 01:17:59,679
Speaker 2: Christian Enneagram coaches and that like how it's now pointing

1361
01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:02,519
Speaker 2: you to Christ. And then that leads to the question

1362
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:05,160
Speaker 2: like how do we know when something pagan is actually

1363
01:18:05,240 --> 01:18:08,320
Speaker 2: being redeemed rather than it just becoming like a Trojan

1364
01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:10,920
Speaker 2: horse that looks Christian on the outside but is still

1365
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:14,400
Speaker 2: new Age on the inside, O cultic on the inside, Pagan, Luciferian, Satan.

1366
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:16,599
Speaker 2: There's a lot of these different terms. They mean different things,

1367
01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 2: but they all hang out in the same club. And

1368
01:18:19,400 --> 01:18:21,839
Speaker 2: what you were describing with AA, where it has Christian

1369
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:26,040
Speaker 2: origins and has become more like a cultic. It's interesting

1370
01:18:26,080 --> 01:18:29,880
Speaker 2: because Christians would argue that the opposite has happened with

1371
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:33,599
Speaker 2: the enneagram. Right, it has occultic origins, but it has

1372
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:37,840
Speaker 2: become Christianized. And every Christian enneagram coach who I know

1373
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:40,160
Speaker 2: who teaches on this says it is a tool to

1374
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:44,280
Speaker 2: point you to Christ. Okay, fine, why are you lying

1375
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:47,960
Speaker 2: about its origins? Then I do have a question about that.

1376
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:49,960
Speaker 2: If you have nothing to hide and you believe it's

1377
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:54,720
Speaker 2: fully been redeemed, why are you misrepresenting its history so much? So?

1378
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:58,960
Speaker 2: I just think I am so grateful that God revealed

1379
01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:03,400
Speaker 2: this to me before I started studying theology, because what

1380
01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:06,080
Speaker 2: it has done is and I'm not saying this to

1381
01:19:06,160 --> 01:19:08,479
Speaker 2: sound pious or like I'm bragging. I am saying this

1382
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:12,120
Speaker 2: like with fear and trembling. Realizing I had been this

1383
01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:15,439
Speaker 2: deceived for eight years when I thought I was spiritually discerning,

1384
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:18,800
Speaker 2: made me realize that, like even my own discernment is

1385
01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:21,880
Speaker 2: by God's grace and it is a gift from Him.

1386
01:19:22,160 --> 01:19:26,880
Speaker 2: And if I am not humbly desperately praying for discernment

1387
01:19:27,360 --> 01:19:31,240
Speaker 2: and praying for the humility itself, to pray for the discernment,

1388
01:19:31,439 --> 01:19:33,639
Speaker 2: because everything we have is a gift from God, including

1389
01:19:33,640 --> 01:19:35,400
Speaker 2: our own humility. But if I'm not praying for that,

1390
01:19:35,920 --> 01:19:39,559
Speaker 2: like I'm filthy rags man, I can't assume. Even if

1391
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:42,600
Speaker 2: I value humility so much and the last thing I

1392
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:45,080
Speaker 2: want to be is prideful, I cannot assume that I'm

1393
01:19:45,120 --> 01:19:47,919
Speaker 2: still not slipping into pride unless I am actively praying

1394
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:50,880
Speaker 2: for the grace of God to help me with those things.

1395
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:55,679
Speaker 2: And so, yes, those things can be used in a light,

1396
01:19:56,280 --> 01:20:02,080
Speaker 2: non demonic way, absolutely, that are helpful to Christians. Absolutely,

1397
01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:03,760
Speaker 2: And if you've been helped by a if you've been

1398
01:20:03,760 --> 01:20:06,800
Speaker 2: helped by the enneagram, that help wasn't false, that help

1399
01:20:07,160 --> 01:20:11,160
Speaker 2: wasn't not real. I'm just saying this is an opportunity

1400
01:20:11,280 --> 01:20:14,120
Speaker 2: to be really self aware in a way that's really uncomfy.

1401
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:18,720
Speaker 2: By asking God to search your heart and show you

1402
01:20:18,800 --> 01:20:21,840
Speaker 2: where you've been blind when you thought you had eyes

1403
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:22,200
Speaker 2: to see.

1404
01:20:24,280 --> 01:20:27,120
Speaker 1: So let's go to where we you know. Kind of

1405
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:29,120
Speaker 1: what I would say is I think let's bring this

1406
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:33,479
Speaker 1: all home. Yeah, And that is you know, way back

1407
01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:38,519
Speaker 1: way back in the beginning, when we started here, we

1408
01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:40,960
Speaker 1: said that we would do with the question can things

1409
01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:50,679
Speaker 1: with pagan ruths be redeemed? But I wonder if I

1410
01:20:50,720 --> 01:20:56,840
Speaker 1: think correct me, if I'm wrong, we could say yes

1411
01:20:56,920 --> 01:21:01,759
Speaker 1: to that potentially, right, So maybe that's not the question.

1412
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:04,920
Speaker 1: The question is not can things with pagan ruths be redeemed? Right?

1413
01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:07,120
Speaker 1: We've seen that with the cross symbol, right, and you

1414
01:21:07,120 --> 01:21:10,960
Speaker 1: can there's that example. I guess the more important question

1415
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:18,320
Speaker 1: maybe is has this thing with pagan roots ben redeemed?

1416
01:21:18,360 --> 01:21:24,840
Speaker 1: And maybe that's that's the that's where people who have

1417
01:21:24,960 --> 01:21:28,560
Speaker 1: come against you that still support it say yes, yeah,

1418
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:34,040
Speaker 1: and my hunches that you would lean towards no, and

1419
01:21:34,160 --> 01:21:39,280
Speaker 1: so explain. So if the question is not just can't

1420
01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:41,880
Speaker 1: things with pagan ruths be redeemed? They can, it seems,

1421
01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:46,120
Speaker 1: but has this thing with pagan roots been redeemed your

1422
01:21:46,160 --> 01:21:47,520
Speaker 1: answer and why?

1423
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:52,760
Speaker 2: Okay, So, firstly, yes, I absolutely believe that pagan things

1424
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:55,960
Speaker 2: can be redeemed. In fact, one of the arguments from

1425
01:21:56,080 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 2: Christians in favor of the enneagram is they'll cite when

1426
01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:02,880
Speaker 2: Paul is speaking to a group of Pagans and he's

1427
01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:06,000
Speaker 2: using their own gods as a teaching tool to help

1428
01:22:06,040 --> 01:22:08,160
Speaker 2: them explain. You know, look, you've got a statue that's

1429
01:22:08,200 --> 01:22:11,639
Speaker 2: labeled to an unknown god amongst all your other pagans.

1430
01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:17,120
Speaker 1: Teach Ergopa, you know that thing.

1431
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:22,720
Speaker 2: You're so someone who just tod seminary. I am right,

1432
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:26,160
Speaker 2: it's okay, I've probably been mispronouncing things this whole.

1433
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:28,880
Speaker 1: Time, but yeah, Act seventeen, I don't know. I'm just.

1434
01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:35,200
Speaker 2: You're trying to redeem yourself. There can pagan things be redeemed?

1435
01:22:35,240 --> 01:22:41,960
Speaker 2: Case in point, John Seidel. Okay, so we're all pagan

1436
01:22:41,960 --> 01:22:44,320
Speaker 2: and we've all been redeemed, so we are living proof

1437
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:48,040
Speaker 2: that pagan things can be redeemed. Right, and and so

1438
01:22:48,120 --> 01:22:51,040
Speaker 2: these these scriptures are even cited where like Paul is

1439
01:22:51,160 --> 01:22:55,719
Speaker 2: using pagan examples to teach scripture, they're not teach scripture.

1440
01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:58,960
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, to teach the gospel. And it's recorded in scripture.

1441
01:22:59,840 --> 01:23:04,000
Speaker 2: I was talking to my chaplain at Oxford about this

1442
01:23:05,080 --> 01:23:07,000
Speaker 2: and it was really interesting. He gave me a take

1443
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:09,639
Speaker 2: that I was, actually, I just want to say this, John,

1444
01:23:09,760 --> 01:23:12,320
Speaker 2: We've had this interview like in the diary for months.

1445
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:14,880
Speaker 2: I have been praying over this interview for months because

1446
01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:17,200
Speaker 2: I have not known what I'm gonna say. I know

1447
01:23:17,280 --> 01:23:19,400
Speaker 2: that like, ultimately the best thing I can say is

1448
01:23:19,400 --> 01:23:21,640
Speaker 2: to ask the Holy Spirit to speak through me, but like,

1449
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:23,920
Speaker 2: I still got control in my mouth, and I've been

1450
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:26,160
Speaker 2: nervous about what to say, and I feel like I

1451
01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:28,679
Speaker 2: articulate things a lot better in essays than I do verbally,

1452
01:23:29,120 --> 01:23:31,120
Speaker 2: and so I've been like, God, give me like the

1453
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:35,840
Speaker 2: sound bites that need to be said, like teach me

1454
01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:38,600
Speaker 2: through these coming months, like how to communicate this in

1455
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:40,320
Speaker 2: a way that is just going to be simple and

1456
01:23:40,400 --> 01:23:43,919
Speaker 2: easy to digest. And I was talking to my chaplain

1457
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:48,320
Speaker 2: specifically about this whole thing regarding pagan tools being redeemed,

1458
01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:53,240
Speaker 2: and we even talked about that scripture from Saint Paul,

1459
01:23:54,479 --> 01:23:58,639
Speaker 2: and my chaplain was saying, you know, there's usually two

1460
01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:03,880
Speaker 2: approaches to redeeming pagan tools. One of them is like

1461
01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:07,519
Speaker 2: immediately turn away, check it, out, throw it away. The

1462
01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:10,640
Speaker 2: other is to transform it, to bring like a continuity

1463
01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:13,080
Speaker 2: and to say, oh, look like what Paul did right,

1464
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:16,360
Speaker 2: Oh look, you were worshiping this statue that says to

1465
01:24:16,400 --> 01:24:20,360
Speaker 2: an unknown God, like, that's pagan, But what it was

1466
01:24:20,360 --> 01:24:24,040
Speaker 2: was a symbol of you knowing that there's something more,

1467
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:27,559
Speaker 2: but you just hadn't been introduced to Christ yet. So

1468
01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:32,200
Speaker 2: let me fulfill what that half hearted understanding represents. Let

1469
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:35,200
Speaker 2: me fulfill it and explain it to you. That unknown

1470
01:24:35,240 --> 01:24:38,120
Speaker 2: God that you're looking for, that pagan worship actually that

1471
01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:40,880
Speaker 2: was your hunger for Jesus. So there's two different ways

1472
01:24:40,920 --> 01:24:44,720
Speaker 2: to approach it. But we see in second kings, like

1473
01:24:45,439 --> 01:24:50,280
Speaker 2: God takes a really hard line with the Israelites when

1474
01:24:50,360 --> 01:24:53,439
Speaker 2: they are you know, you see this cycle of like

1475
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:55,680
Speaker 2: and this king did what was evil in the in

1476
01:24:55,760 --> 01:24:58,320
Speaker 2: the lord's sight, and he erected the high places, and

1477
01:24:58,360 --> 01:25:02,599
Speaker 2: he worshiped on the Ashera poles, and this tragedy befell

1478
01:25:02,680 --> 01:25:04,920
Speaker 2: him and his kingdom. And then the next king did

1479
01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:07,160
Speaker 2: what was righteous in the lord's sight and tore down

1480
01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:09,559
Speaker 2: the high places and tore down the asheropoles, and like

1481
01:25:09,840 --> 01:25:12,639
Speaker 2: this is a history book that's written to explain why

1482
01:25:13,240 --> 01:25:17,400
Speaker 2: bad things happened to Israel in relation to a zero

1483
01:25:17,520 --> 01:25:22,000
Speaker 2: tolerance policy for pagan practices. So we see both in

1484
01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:24,880
Speaker 2: the Bible, and it's really difficult then to be like, well,

1485
01:25:24,880 --> 01:25:27,719
Speaker 2: which one do we apply to the enneagram in good faith?

1486
01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:30,760
Speaker 2: What do we do as Christians? And this is something

1487
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:33,639
Speaker 2: I've been wrestling with for a year and we'll continue

1488
01:25:33,680 --> 01:25:35,760
Speaker 2: to wrestle with to the point where, like I might

1489
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:37,880
Speaker 2: do a PhD on this. This is how interested I

1490
01:25:37,920 --> 01:25:40,639
Speaker 2: am in this topic because quite like C. S. Lewis,

1491
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:43,160
Speaker 2: I'll just be totally honest here, I have like an

1492
01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:46,760
Speaker 2: uncomfortable fascination with the occult. I stay far away from

1493
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:48,479
Speaker 2: it for that reason because I'm aware of that in

1494
01:25:48,560 --> 01:25:52,880
Speaker 2: myself that could also create in need this fundamentalist turn

1495
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:56,479
Speaker 2: away from everything and don't like, don't go near you know,

1496
01:25:56,479 --> 01:25:59,400
Speaker 2: if someone said that the Celtic Cross was pagan, don't

1497
01:25:59,439 --> 01:26:01,559
Speaker 2: go to Holy Island and Linda's Farn and pray and

1498
01:26:01,840 --> 01:26:05,360
Speaker 2: worship through the scriptural liturgies of the Celtic Saints because

1499
01:26:05,360 --> 01:26:07,760
Speaker 2: the Celts before them were pay Like I could go

1500
01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:10,160
Speaker 2: that way if I wanted to. There is this tension

1501
01:26:10,200 --> 01:26:12,720
Speaker 2: of both we turn away from what is demonic. But

1502
01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:17,760
Speaker 2: also we recognize that sometimes a pagan practice is just

1503
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:24,960
Speaker 2: a misguided like it's a half hearted knowing of something

1504
01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:27,360
Speaker 2: that Christ fulfills and then we fully know, like then

1505
01:26:27,400 --> 01:26:29,000
Speaker 2: I see in a mirror and part like now I

1506
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 2: will see fully like sometimes paganism is just someone like

1507
01:26:32,040 --> 01:26:34,519
Speaker 2: looking for the truth and they haven't found it yet,

1508
01:26:34,520 --> 01:26:36,880
Speaker 2: And so we see this continuity. But what my chaplain

1509
01:26:36,920 --> 01:26:39,760
Speaker 2: said that was really useful was what you notice though,

1510
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:43,519
Speaker 2: is that once Paul reveals the truth to them, he

1511
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:48,040
Speaker 2: encourages them to repent and turn away. So there is

1512
01:26:48,479 --> 01:26:52,280
Speaker 2: there's both in this tension, right. The reason I don't

1513
01:26:52,280 --> 01:26:57,040
Speaker 2: believe that Christians should be using the enneagram whilst holding

1514
01:26:57,040 --> 01:26:59,720
Speaker 2: the tension that if it has genuinely helped you, that

1515
01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:03,080
Speaker 2: help was real by the grace of God, because no

1516
01:27:03,360 --> 01:27:05,519
Speaker 2: crevice of this earth can escape His goodness for those

1517
01:27:05,520 --> 01:27:08,080
Speaker 2: He loves. Right, we are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus.

1518
01:27:08,600 --> 01:27:10,280
Speaker 2: But the reason that I think that you should turn

1519
01:27:10,280 --> 01:27:12,880
Speaker 2: away from it now whilst appreciating the good that it

1520
01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:17,840
Speaker 2: did for you, is because if the Christian advocates of

1521
01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:21,760
Speaker 2: the enneagram are having to lie about its history in

1522
01:27:21,880 --> 01:27:25,639
Speaker 2: order to redeem it. That to me is not redemption.

1523
01:27:26,720 --> 01:27:30,679
Speaker 2: And once Paul didn't lie. Paul said, you were believing

1524
01:27:30,680 --> 01:27:34,120
Speaker 2: a lie, and here's the truth. Now turn away from

1525
01:27:34,160 --> 01:27:39,200
Speaker 2: your pagan practices and find fullness in Christ. Here's the truth. Okay,

1526
01:27:40,040 --> 01:27:42,680
Speaker 2: what I am seeing in the Christian world is like

1527
01:27:43,400 --> 01:27:47,240
Speaker 2: this idolatry. First of the Enneagram. It is a hill

1528
01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:48,920
Speaker 2: that a lot of Christians I'm seeing they're willing to

1529
01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:52,320
Speaker 2: die on to the point where they're misrepresenting the facts

1530
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:54,960
Speaker 2: about its history in a way that tells me they

1531
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:57,880
Speaker 2: are not confident that it has been redeemed and is

1532
01:27:57,920 --> 01:28:02,240
Speaker 2: fully pointing towards Christ. Now, does that mean that there

1533
01:28:02,280 --> 01:28:05,679
Speaker 2: aren't good faith aneagram coaches who are saying like, hey, look,

1534
01:28:05,720 --> 01:28:08,479
Speaker 2: you've it seems like you've got these patterns, this personality,

1535
01:28:08,479 --> 01:28:10,720
Speaker 2: of these patterns, of these particular sins, and like you

1536
01:28:10,800 --> 01:28:12,320
Speaker 2: need to take those to the foot of the cross.

1537
01:28:13,160 --> 01:28:16,800
Speaker 2: That is all. Absolutely, that's a micro redemption of the

1538
01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:20,719
Speaker 2: use of the enneagram within the Church and within the Kingdom.

1539
01:28:21,320 --> 01:28:24,799
Speaker 2: But generally speaking, because I can't speak to every person's

1540
01:28:24,840 --> 01:28:29,680
Speaker 2: individual experience, generally speaking as a tool, if we know

1541
01:28:29,920 --> 01:28:32,640
Speaker 2: that the origins of it are not just rooted in

1542
01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:36,120
Speaker 2: like a misunderstanding of the truth of who God is,

1543
01:28:36,160 --> 01:28:38,479
Speaker 2: the truth of the Gospel, you know, like the Pagans

1544
01:28:38,520 --> 01:28:40,840
Speaker 2: with their statue that says to an unknown God. It's

1545
01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:43,400
Speaker 2: not based on just like not having enough information, right,

1546
01:28:44,080 --> 01:28:49,320
Speaker 2: it was actively inspired by the demonic and then we

1547
01:28:49,360 --> 01:28:51,400
Speaker 2: are taking it upon ourselves to say, oh, but we

1548
01:28:51,479 --> 01:28:55,920
Speaker 2: can redeem it. Okay. I want to ask the question,

1549
01:28:56,040 --> 01:28:59,200
Speaker 2: like who has the authority to redeem? Is it us

1550
01:29:00,240 --> 01:29:03,760
Speaker 2: or is it Christ? Christ redeemed the symbol of the

1551
01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 2: pagan cross by literally giving his life on it and

1552
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:12,520
Speaker 2: bleeding on it. The Church collectively, through church history, through

1553
01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:16,760
Speaker 2: the centuries, have clarified and redeemed things like Christmas, things

1554
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:18,600
Speaker 2: like Easter. Like, I'm not one of those people the

1555
01:29:18,680 --> 01:29:21,400
Speaker 2: things that Easter is a pagan holiday. No, it's the

1556
01:29:21,439 --> 01:29:25,040
Speaker 2: celebration of the resurrection of Christ. But if you have

1557
01:29:25,120 --> 01:29:29,080
Speaker 2: to lie about what something is, you are already trying

1558
01:29:29,080 --> 01:29:34,599
Speaker 2: to redeem it through sin. Sin doesn't redeem things. Now,

1559
01:29:35,800 --> 01:29:38,840
Speaker 2: there are some Christian enneagram coaches who probably quite truly believe,

1560
01:29:38,920 --> 01:29:41,880
Speaker 2: oh well, there's you know, conflicting histories about this, and

1561
01:29:41,920 --> 01:29:43,639
Speaker 2: so we don't really know the truth. And I've seen

1562
01:29:43,680 --> 01:29:46,840
Speaker 2: it used. It's been developed so much through the Catholic

1563
01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:48,800
Speaker 2: Church and the Jesuit priests, and has been taken into

1564
01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:51,880
Speaker 2: evangelical circles, and it has over time been redeemed by

1565
01:29:51,960 --> 01:29:55,599
Speaker 2: the Church. But if you're concealing out of the mouth

1566
01:29:55,640 --> 01:29:59,880
Speaker 2: of its own founders, it was absolutely inspired by demon.

1567
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:03,280
Speaker 2: I've got a problem with that because you're not inviting

1568
01:30:03,280 --> 01:30:06,439
Speaker 2: people to then turn away. And the other reason I

1569
01:30:06,479 --> 01:30:08,960
Speaker 2: don't think that it can be redeemed is that I

1570
01:30:09,920 --> 01:30:11,720
Speaker 2: am of the opinion and you can disagree with me

1571
01:30:11,800 --> 01:30:15,040
Speaker 2: on this, John, but I would hope that after like

1572
01:30:15,360 --> 01:30:18,600
Speaker 2: going through AA or going through therapy or getting our diagnosis,

1573
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:21,599
Speaker 2: that we don't stay there. We don't stay there needing

1574
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:24,920
Speaker 2: that that identity, that framework. Now there are tools like

1575
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:26,920
Speaker 2: let me just be clear here, there are still tools

1576
01:30:26,960 --> 01:30:29,400
Speaker 2: from when I went to therapy for OCD at fourteen

1577
01:30:29,760 --> 01:30:31,960
Speaker 2: that I use to help me. So, like I'm not

1578
01:30:31,960 --> 01:30:34,760
Speaker 2: saying don't use any therapeutic tools. But when it comes

1579
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:37,080
Speaker 2: to something that is claiming our identity and telling us

1580
01:30:37,080 --> 01:30:40,240
Speaker 2: everything about who we are, if it requires us to

1581
01:30:40,320 --> 01:30:44,720
Speaker 2: keep coming back to it rather than pointing us to

1582
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:49,280
Speaker 2: Christ and finding freedom in Christ, that to me also

1583
01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:51,960
Speaker 2: isn't redemption that Like the tool in it of itself

1584
01:30:51,960 --> 01:30:54,400
Speaker 2: to me, seems greedy. It seems like it wants you.

1585
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:57,400
Speaker 2: It wants you to stay with it. It wants you

1586
01:30:57,479 --> 01:30:59,960
Speaker 2: to keep coming back to it and needing it. Oh, well,

1587
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:02,840
Speaker 2: you've got a boss who's an enneagram eight and you're

1588
01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:05,240
Speaker 2: you're a nine and you're the peacemaker and the eight's

1589
01:31:05,280 --> 01:31:07,360
Speaker 2: the like more aggressive one. Well, here's how you deal

1590
01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:11,800
Speaker 2: with that. Again. I know that there's nuance here, and like,

1591
01:31:11,880 --> 01:31:14,920
Speaker 2: sometimes these tools can be useful, but like, because the

1592
01:31:15,040 --> 01:31:19,920
Speaker 2: enneagram has invaded every single aspect of how we understand

1593
01:31:19,960 --> 01:31:23,960
Speaker 2: our relationship dynamics, it's like it needs you to keep

1594
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:27,000
Speaker 2: needing it in a way that doesn't feel like redemption

1595
01:31:27,080 --> 01:31:29,040
Speaker 2: to me. And I just want to share this John,

1596
01:31:29,160 --> 01:31:31,280
Speaker 2: Like if someone's listening to all of this and at

1597
01:31:31,280 --> 01:31:32,800
Speaker 2: the end of it they're still like, Nope, this has

1598
01:31:32,840 --> 01:31:35,679
Speaker 2: been one of the most fundamentally helpful things in my life.

1599
01:31:35,720 --> 01:31:38,479
Speaker 2: Like praise God, like his authority is higher than mine.

1600
01:31:39,120 --> 01:31:41,960
Speaker 2: But I just want to say this, the enneagram did

1601
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:45,759
Speaker 2: help me with understanding like my husband and I are very different.

1602
01:31:45,840 --> 01:31:48,200
Speaker 2: I'm a verbal processor. You can probably tell he's an

1603
01:31:48,240 --> 01:31:51,760
Speaker 2: internal processor. He is very much an anti conflict. I'm

1604
01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:54,280
Speaker 2: a like, let's get it all of our junk out

1605
01:31:54,320 --> 01:31:56,400
Speaker 2: in the open and air our agrievances and deal with this.

1606
01:31:56,800 --> 01:31:59,519
Speaker 2: And for years there was a real tension in our

1607
01:31:59,560 --> 01:32:01,919
Speaker 2: marriage because I didn't know how to have healthy conflict

1608
01:32:01,920 --> 01:32:04,920
Speaker 2: with him. He was shutting down while I was escalating.

1609
01:32:05,200 --> 01:32:08,080
Speaker 2: And the enneagram did help me to understand and have

1610
01:32:08,080 --> 01:32:12,280
Speaker 2: compassion for his like more peacemaker approach to things. But

1611
01:32:12,360 --> 01:32:14,320
Speaker 2: you want to know what helped me a lot more

1612
01:32:16,439 --> 01:32:22,280
Speaker 2: repentance and prayer. Like genuinely, I've been studying a lot

1613
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:25,800
Speaker 2: more about the gift of the sacraments. You don't have

1614
01:32:25,880 --> 01:32:29,720
Speaker 2: to be a Catholic to learn about the sacrament of

1615
01:32:29,800 --> 01:32:32,600
Speaker 2: reconciliation through confession. You don't have to go to a

1616
01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:35,400
Speaker 2: priest to do your confession. But like one of the

1617
01:32:35,439 --> 01:32:38,680
Speaker 2: things about if you are a Catholic and you go

1618
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:40,120
Speaker 2: to a priest, I'm not saying that's a bad thing.

1619
01:32:40,160 --> 01:32:41,519
Speaker 2: I'm just telling you if you're listening to this and

1620
01:32:41,600 --> 01:32:43,320
Speaker 2: you're a Protestant, I'm not telling you have to go

1621
01:32:43,320 --> 01:32:44,760
Speaker 2: to a priest. But what I'm saying is that the

1622
01:32:44,800 --> 01:32:48,840
Speaker 2: sacrament of reconciliation involves an examination of conscience, and I've

1623
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:52,439
Speaker 2: been practicing that. I've been practicing an examination of conscience recently,

1624
01:32:52,880 --> 01:32:55,720
Speaker 2: where I reflect on all of my sins and I

1625
01:32:55,760 --> 01:32:58,559
Speaker 2: ask for the Holy Spirit's grace to reflect on what

1626
01:32:58,640 --> 01:33:01,800
Speaker 2: I have the sins that I've committed since that would

1627
01:33:01,800 --> 01:33:03,519
Speaker 2: have not been on my radar if I was only

1628
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:05,680
Speaker 2: thinking about myself through the lens of the enneagram for

1629
01:33:06,640 --> 01:33:11,840
Speaker 2: and through that examination of conscience and the repentance which

1630
01:33:11,840 --> 01:33:15,200
Speaker 2: I have spoken out loud to my husband and spoken

1631
01:33:15,200 --> 01:33:18,320
Speaker 2: out loud to God, confession to my husband, and confession

1632
01:33:18,320 --> 01:33:23,040
Speaker 2: to God, and prayer as I repent for reconciliation, and

1633
01:33:23,080 --> 01:33:27,559
Speaker 2: to that spirit of renewal, of just receiving grace upon grace.

1634
01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:30,840
Speaker 2: Every time I mess up, I can repent and that

1635
01:33:30,880 --> 01:33:33,760
Speaker 2: grace is readily available to me. And the refining that

1636
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:37,760
Speaker 2: that has done as like a sacramental practice. I guess

1637
01:33:37,800 --> 01:33:39,960
Speaker 2: what I'm trying to say is like we're looking to

1638
01:33:40,040 --> 01:33:44,520
Speaker 2: all of these tools. The early Church and some denominations

1639
01:33:44,520 --> 01:33:46,920
Speaker 2: of the Church now still use the sacraments as the

1640
01:33:46,960 --> 01:33:49,760
Speaker 2: central focus of the tools that God has readily given

1641
01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:53,880
Speaker 2: us to receive grace that are so freeing. And when

1642
01:33:53,880 --> 01:33:59,479
Speaker 2: I repented of the enneagram. I felt so much more

1643
01:34:00,560 --> 01:34:04,679
Speaker 2: myself than I ever had, because I felt so free

1644
01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:07,559
Speaker 2: to be the academic and the artist and the achiever

1645
01:34:07,680 --> 01:34:11,320
Speaker 2: and sometimes the lazy, tired, conflict averse person, and I

1646
01:34:11,439 --> 01:34:15,200
Speaker 2: needed God's grace and sanctification with all of it. And

1647
01:34:15,240 --> 01:34:18,479
Speaker 2: I also could embody the beauty of who I am

1648
01:34:18,520 --> 01:34:21,360
Speaker 2: as a creation of God in all these different dynamic ways.

1649
01:34:21,840 --> 01:34:24,519
Speaker 2: And like some Indeagram coaches will say, yeah, you should

1650
01:34:24,560 --> 01:34:26,840
Speaker 2: be praying for being like all of the nine types,

1651
01:34:27,040 --> 01:34:29,479
Speaker 2: and that's good. But if that's the case, then you

1652
01:34:29,520 --> 01:34:31,840
Speaker 2: should reach a point where you graduate from meeting the

1653
01:34:31,920 --> 01:34:35,080
Speaker 2: enneagram at all. But the thing is, we never graduate

1654
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:39,559
Speaker 2: from being a whole person unless we are consistently looking

1655
01:34:39,600 --> 01:34:42,720
Speaker 2: to Christ for our sanctification. And the sacraments are a

1656
01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:46,280
Speaker 2: tool that we've been given to do that. Like, there's

1657
01:34:46,400 --> 01:34:49,200
Speaker 2: so many things that God's already given us as gifts

1658
01:34:49,880 --> 01:34:53,559
Speaker 2: to repent of our sins and find wholeness and patience

1659
01:34:53,560 --> 01:34:56,439
Speaker 2: with others and self awareness and self understanding. And it's

1660
01:34:56,479 --> 01:34:57,880
Speaker 2: like we're like, no, I don't want those gifts. I

1661
01:34:57,920 --> 01:35:00,840
Speaker 2: want this cool trendy thing over here on my Instagram.

1662
01:35:01,560 --> 01:35:04,840
Speaker 2: And so for me, when I repented of the Enneagram,

1663
01:35:05,400 --> 01:35:09,320
Speaker 2: and then I started like just learning more about like

1664
01:35:09,479 --> 01:35:12,480
Speaker 2: the gifts that God's given us through sacramental worship, liturgical

1665
01:35:12,479 --> 01:35:15,880
Speaker 2: prayer that has given me all the things that the

1666
01:35:15,920 --> 01:35:19,360
Speaker 2: aneagram promised, but never over the eight years that I

1667
01:35:19,479 --> 01:35:24,160
Speaker 2: used it never gave me. And I am I'm going

1668
01:35:24,200 --> 01:35:28,280
Speaker 2: to Oxford fully embodying myself as someone who enjoys being

1669
01:35:28,360 --> 01:35:31,880
Speaker 2: academic and cerebral, while not neglecting that I'm also like

1670
01:35:32,439 --> 01:35:37,680
Speaker 2: a very like feely emotional poet, and also recognizing that

1671
01:35:37,760 --> 01:35:40,600
Speaker 2: sometimes I'm really prideful and dominant in my marriage in

1672
01:35:40,640 --> 01:35:42,920
Speaker 2: a way that apparently only the enneagram mates really do.

1673
01:35:43,479 --> 01:35:46,759
Speaker 2: Like I am sinful in always, and I am also

1674
01:35:47,360 --> 01:35:51,200
Speaker 2: able to be sanctified and grow in always, And a

1675
01:35:51,240 --> 01:35:53,439
Speaker 2: tool that tells me that I am only one dominant

1676
01:35:53,439 --> 01:35:57,000
Speaker 2: type is not offering me the fullness and freedom of Christ.

1677
01:36:00,320 --> 01:36:03,200
Speaker 1: Wow. I was like taking notes, like, there are some

1678
01:36:03,280 --> 01:36:06,519
Speaker 1: great great stuff you said there, and I think again,

1679
01:36:06,640 --> 01:36:10,559
Speaker 1: some parallels to AA and sobriety culture. What I will say,

1680
01:36:10,840 --> 01:36:14,080
Speaker 1: I'll call it that right where we end up worshiping Sobriety,

1681
01:36:14,160 --> 01:36:19,120
Speaker 1: we end up worshiping programs over the provider if you will.

1682
01:36:21,160 --> 01:36:22,840
Speaker 1: I know, we've we've talked a lot, We've given a

1683
01:36:22,880 --> 01:36:25,200
Speaker 1: lot of caveats, and you know, if you're listening to

1684
01:36:25,240 --> 01:36:27,400
Speaker 1: this and you still love the But what if someone

1685
01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:33,320
Speaker 1: is listening to this and they say, dang, I'm feeling convicted.

1686
01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:37,840
Speaker 1: I'm actually I think, Christine, I'm where you are. You've

1687
01:36:37,960 --> 01:36:41,320
Speaker 1: used the term renounced and repent. But what does it

1688
01:36:41,400 --> 01:36:43,200
Speaker 1: look like?

1689
01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:43,280
Speaker 2: Like?

1690
01:36:43,360 --> 01:36:46,200
Speaker 1: What's your advice to someone who's listening to this and

1691
01:36:46,360 --> 01:36:49,800
Speaker 1: is like, I think I need to do whatever you did.

1692
01:36:49,920 --> 01:36:54,160
Speaker 1: I think I need to whatever? Like, what would you

1693
01:36:54,160 --> 01:36:56,120
Speaker 1: say to that person? We'll be right back after.

1694
01:36:55,920 --> 01:37:03,640
Speaker 2: This, so I'll tell you. For however many comments I

1695
01:37:03,640 --> 01:37:08,240
Speaker 2: got on my essay of angry people, I got twice

1696
01:37:08,280 --> 01:37:11,200
Speaker 2: the amount of people in my inbox saying I've just

1697
01:37:11,360 --> 01:37:13,920
Speaker 2: repented and renounced of this. Thank you so much, Like

1698
01:37:14,280 --> 01:37:17,840
Speaker 2: I feel so free, Like I would have never really

1699
01:37:17,880 --> 01:37:20,080
Speaker 2: considered doing this, but the way you explained it from

1700
01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:22,439
Speaker 2: the perspective of someone who also loved it helped me

1701
01:37:22,520 --> 01:37:25,559
Speaker 2: see that I needed to repent and turn away from this.

1702
01:37:25,920 --> 01:37:28,040
Speaker 2: I even had one friend of mine who had just

1703
01:37:28,160 --> 01:37:31,040
Speaker 2: recently been confirmed into the Catholic Church and she was

1704
01:37:31,080 --> 01:37:33,559
Speaker 2: going to her first confession, and she said, I read

1705
01:37:33,600 --> 01:37:35,800
Speaker 2: your essay right before going into the confessional, and I

1706
01:37:35,800 --> 01:37:38,360
Speaker 2: confessed to my priests, and it felt like such a relief.

1707
01:37:38,720 --> 01:37:40,720
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for giving me something to bring

1708
01:37:40,760 --> 01:37:43,599
Speaker 2: to my first confession. That was super cool. That felt

1709
01:37:43,640 --> 01:37:48,960
Speaker 2: like such a gift. In whatever tradition you practice repentance,

1710
01:37:51,280 --> 01:37:55,320
Speaker 2: what I will say is, firstly, just sit in the

1711
01:37:55,400 --> 01:37:58,800
Speaker 2: knowledge that you are safe with God, right because the

1712
01:37:58,840 --> 01:38:01,920
Speaker 2: first thing that I felt was like not only shame,

1713
01:38:02,000 --> 01:38:05,559
Speaker 2: but embarrassment that I had been this deceived for so long.

1714
01:38:05,800 --> 01:38:08,160
Speaker 2: I felt so embarrassed. I remember going to my best

1715
01:38:08,160 --> 01:38:11,840
Speaker 2: friend Dusty and being like, I care so much about

1716
01:38:11,960 --> 01:38:15,640
Speaker 2: not doing demonic things. How have I like engaged in

1717
01:38:15,680 --> 01:38:19,240
Speaker 2: this tool for this long? And she reminded me, She's like, Christina,

1718
01:38:19,280 --> 01:38:22,000
Speaker 2: even your discernment is a gift from God. Like, you

1719
01:38:22,040 --> 01:38:24,559
Speaker 2: don't get to be prideful about your discernment. It's not

1720
01:38:24,640 --> 01:38:28,599
Speaker 2: yours is Everything is by grace through faith, and it's

1721
01:38:28,640 --> 01:38:32,360
Speaker 2: a gift. And so that was actually such a humbling

1722
01:38:32,400 --> 01:38:35,639
Speaker 2: but beautiful reminder that like, if God is the source

1723
01:38:35,680 --> 01:38:40,040
Speaker 2: of my discernment, I am safe with God, and he's

1724
01:38:40,120 --> 01:38:44,360
Speaker 2: not He's not ashamed of me. You know, he's just

1725
01:38:44,400 --> 01:38:46,200
Speaker 2: so glad that I want to get closer to him,

1726
01:38:46,560 --> 01:38:48,599
Speaker 2: and he wants to continue to lead me further up

1727
01:38:48,640 --> 01:38:51,120
Speaker 2: and further into the truth of his goodness. And I

1728
01:38:51,120 --> 01:38:53,720
Speaker 2: can just sit in that for a second and be like,

1729
01:38:53,960 --> 01:38:55,559
Speaker 2: I don't I don't need to sit in my shame

1730
01:38:55,640 --> 01:38:59,080
Speaker 2: and my embarrassment, because this whole life is just like

1731
01:38:59,120 --> 01:39:02,479
Speaker 2: a journey of sayingification and being cleansed and receiving the

1732
01:39:02,520 --> 01:39:05,920
Speaker 2: beauty of grace over and over again. Repentance itself as

1733
01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:08,759
Speaker 2: a gift. It doesn't need to be something filled with shame.

1734
01:39:10,160 --> 01:39:14,000
Speaker 2: So if you're feeling any like sense of like shame

1735
01:39:14,120 --> 01:39:16,080
Speaker 2: or guilt or embarrassment, I just want to be like,

1736
01:39:16,120 --> 01:39:18,960
Speaker 2: you're safe with God and know that your discernment continues

1737
01:39:19,000 --> 01:39:20,439
Speaker 2: to be a gift from Him, and you can trust

1738
01:39:20,479 --> 01:39:22,760
Speaker 2: that your Father is good. The other thing I would

1739
01:39:22,800 --> 01:39:28,000
Speaker 2: say is, through an examination of conscience, ask God to

1740
01:39:28,040 --> 01:39:30,960
Speaker 2: show you how the enneagram has infiltrated the way that

1741
01:39:31,040 --> 01:39:33,800
Speaker 2: you think about people and about yourself in even the

1742
01:39:33,840 --> 01:39:36,200
Speaker 2: finite ways. Like one of the things that I became

1743
01:39:36,320 --> 01:39:38,880
Speaker 2: very aware of after I repented was that I will

1744
01:39:38,880 --> 01:39:41,000
Speaker 2: try to type a person within a few minutes of

1745
01:39:41,040 --> 01:39:43,240
Speaker 2: meeting them. When I was working in an office, I

1746
01:39:43,280 --> 01:39:46,600
Speaker 2: was trying to type every person, not in like a

1747
01:39:46,680 --> 01:39:49,439
Speaker 2: you know, psychic oracle kind of way, but just in like, Oh,

1748
01:39:49,439 --> 01:39:51,200
Speaker 2: that'll help me to understand them better. I'll help me

1749
01:39:51,200 --> 01:39:53,040
Speaker 2: to work with them better. And also it was just

1750
01:39:53,120 --> 01:39:55,479
Speaker 2: kind of fun, like a game, you know. But then

1751
01:39:55,520 --> 01:39:59,879
Speaker 2: when I repented after a couple of days, I realized, oh,

1752
01:40:00,360 --> 01:40:02,720
Speaker 2: I do this as a default a lot more than

1753
01:40:02,760 --> 01:40:06,920
Speaker 2: I realized. There's actually some like rewiring of my brain

1754
01:40:06,960 --> 01:40:10,120
Speaker 2: that I'm gonna need to happen here now, because I

1755
01:40:10,200 --> 01:40:13,040
Speaker 2: actually can't just stop thinking about the enneagram like that,

1756
01:40:13,280 --> 01:40:15,960
Speaker 2: you know, and especially if someone with obsessive compulsive disorder

1757
01:40:16,040 --> 01:40:17,760
Speaker 2: like you know how hard it is sometimes to get

1758
01:40:17,800 --> 01:40:20,439
Speaker 2: your thoughts to stop doing things, especially when you tell

1759
01:40:20,439 --> 01:40:24,720
Speaker 2: them to stop. So I asked God, just very sincerely,

1760
01:40:24,760 --> 01:40:27,080
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm at the end of my tether. I

1761
01:40:27,160 --> 01:40:30,120
Speaker 2: can't white knuckle any of this. I can't discern my

1762
01:40:30,160 --> 01:40:32,160
Speaker 2: way out of thinking about the world this way, thinking

1763
01:40:32,160 --> 01:40:34,920
Speaker 2: about my relationships this way. God, I need you to

1764
01:40:35,040 --> 01:40:37,120
Speaker 2: just help me stop thinking about people through the lens

1765
01:40:37,120 --> 01:40:39,439
Speaker 2: of their types. And I need you to help me

1766
01:40:39,479 --> 01:40:41,599
Speaker 2: stop thinking about myself through the lens of my types

1767
01:40:41,960 --> 01:40:44,240
Speaker 2: because it's ingrained, it's a default to me. Now I've

1768
01:40:44,240 --> 01:40:47,360
Speaker 2: been doing it for like eight ten years. You're gonna

1769
01:40:47,400 --> 01:40:52,000
Speaker 2: have to help me because I got nothing. And that

1770
01:40:52,160 --> 01:40:54,920
Speaker 2: was actually part of where the freedom really started to develop,

1771
01:40:55,000 --> 01:40:58,240
Speaker 2: because it was just such a sweet moment as well

1772
01:40:58,280 --> 01:41:01,120
Speaker 2: to be reminded of how which God wants to answer

1773
01:41:01,120 --> 01:41:03,200
Speaker 2: our prayers, especially when our prayers are to be closer

1774
01:41:03,240 --> 01:41:07,599
Speaker 2: to Him. Because within a month I wasn't thinking about

1775
01:41:07,600 --> 01:41:10,040
Speaker 2: people through the lens of their types anymore. And this

1776
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:12,000
Speaker 2: was something that I had been doing for eight years

1777
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:16,160
Speaker 2: straight and it just stopped because I asked. I asked

1778
01:41:16,200 --> 01:41:18,479
Speaker 2: God to help me, and he did, and I was

1779
01:41:18,560 --> 01:41:20,840
Speaker 2: like taking thoughts captive for a while. But then after

1780
01:41:20,920 --> 01:41:23,320
Speaker 2: a while I just realized. I was like, oh, I

1781
01:41:23,439 --> 01:41:26,640
Speaker 2: just don't I just don't think about this anymore. Like

1782
01:41:27,040 --> 01:41:30,519
Speaker 2: so being aware of how and it might not be

1783
01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:33,560
Speaker 2: that you've thought about the enneagram in that way, it

1784
01:41:33,640 --> 01:41:35,280
Speaker 2: might not be that it's infiltrated the way you think

1785
01:41:35,280 --> 01:41:37,200
Speaker 2: in that particular way. But I would just say, ask

1786
01:41:37,280 --> 01:41:39,880
Speaker 2: God to help you examine your conscience so that you're

1787
01:41:39,880 --> 01:41:43,800
Speaker 2: actually aware of what you're repenting of what you're turning from,

1788
01:41:43,920 --> 01:41:46,640
Speaker 2: so that you know how big of a gift it

1789
01:41:46,680 --> 01:41:50,160
Speaker 2: is that you're turning towards something else. Like and this

1790
01:41:50,240 --> 01:41:52,519
Speaker 2: is sorry, John, I know I'm like off on one now,

1791
01:41:52,560 --> 01:41:53,920
Speaker 2: but the last thing I want to say is like,

1792
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:57,439
Speaker 2: please know that repentance is a gift to towards turn

1793
01:41:57,520 --> 01:41:58,519
Speaker 2: towards something better.

1794
01:41:59,200 --> 01:42:03,320
Speaker 1: Yes, right, it's turning. It's turning. It's not just being sorry,

1795
01:42:03,439 --> 01:42:04,480
Speaker 1: it's turning.

1796
01:42:05,400 --> 01:42:09,000
Speaker 2: Towards something better. This is like, I cannot overemphasize this.

1797
01:42:09,160 --> 01:42:13,080
Speaker 2: If you thought the inneagram was good, boy, do you

1798
01:42:13,400 --> 01:42:16,840
Speaker 2: like not know how much better what God has in

1799
01:42:16,840 --> 01:42:21,120
Speaker 2: store for you? Next is like there's never gonna be

1800
01:42:21,120 --> 01:42:28,920
Speaker 2: a circumstance in which God doesn't Job lost everything and

1801
01:42:29,040 --> 01:42:33,400
Speaker 2: God doubled what he returned to Job at the end

1802
01:42:33,400 --> 01:42:37,200
Speaker 2: of that Book of suffering, Like, yes, giving things up.

1803
01:42:37,360 --> 01:42:41,720
Speaker 2: Sacrificing is hard. Sacrifice is part of worship, right Biblically

1804
01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:46,360
Speaker 2: old testaments like worship required a sacrifice, and I think

1805
01:42:46,360 --> 01:42:51,040
Speaker 2: we forget that sometimes sacrifice is hard. Men, But the

1806
01:42:51,080 --> 01:42:56,400
Speaker 2: gift of the gift of worship because of the object

1807
01:42:56,400 --> 01:42:59,720
Speaker 2: of our worship and what He returns to us by

1808
01:42:59,800 --> 01:43:03,080
Speaker 2: no like merit of our own, but through His grace

1809
01:43:04,400 --> 01:43:08,080
Speaker 2: I further up and further. In one of my favorite CS.

1810
01:43:08,160 --> 01:43:11,960
Speaker 2: Lewis quotes, I'm telling you, if you're feeling convicted to repent,

1811
01:43:13,160 --> 01:43:16,439
Speaker 2: there is nothing that you were repenting from. There is

1812
01:43:16,600 --> 01:43:18,800
Speaker 2: nothing in that thing that you were laying down on

1813
01:43:18,840 --> 01:43:21,920
Speaker 2: the altar as a sacrifice that is going to be

1814
01:43:22,360 --> 01:43:26,360
Speaker 2: richer than the gift of whatever God's handing you next.

1815
01:43:26,560 --> 01:43:30,719
Speaker 2: Like we turn to him because there is nothing better

1816
01:43:30,760 --> 01:43:36,160
Speaker 2: in this world. Like, and I feel like sometimes especially

1817
01:43:36,240 --> 01:43:38,880
Speaker 2: in conversations like this, where it can get really fundamentalist

1818
01:43:38,960 --> 01:43:42,120
Speaker 2: and it can seem really dogmatic and really black and white, Like,

1819
01:43:42,320 --> 01:43:45,479
Speaker 2: all I want people to know is that I'm not

1820
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:48,360
Speaker 2: encouraging you to turn from this tool so that you

1821
01:43:48,400 --> 01:43:50,360
Speaker 2: can tick a box of being like, well, didn't use

1822
01:43:50,360 --> 01:43:53,840
Speaker 2: anything demonic today. No, I'm telling you this because, like

1823
01:43:54,560 --> 01:43:58,840
Speaker 2: I believe in a true Narnia, and I want people

1824
01:43:58,880 --> 01:44:01,040
Speaker 2: to be able to walk in to that Narnia like

1825
01:44:01,479 --> 01:44:02,280
Speaker 2: with no chains.

1826
01:44:03,200 --> 01:44:07,280
Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm. You know two things I would say is

1827
01:44:09,920 --> 01:44:11,679
Speaker 1: I'm the sacrifice part. You know, I've told the story

1828
01:44:11,680 --> 01:44:13,160
Speaker 1: in the podcast before, but when God told me to

1829
01:44:13,160 --> 01:44:15,360
Speaker 1: write the book and I said no, I said, hell, no.

1830
01:44:17,080 --> 01:44:19,160
Speaker 1: But he reminded me of the story of David and

1831
01:44:19,160 --> 01:44:21,559
Speaker 1: and David goes to make a sacrifice, and you know,

1832
01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:24,519
Speaker 1: someone offers like, hey, here's the here's the animals, here's

1833
01:44:24,560 --> 01:44:26,800
Speaker 1: the land, here's the everything, and David says, no, I

1834
01:44:26,800 --> 01:44:29,960
Speaker 1: will not sacrifice that which cost me nothing, right, And

1835
01:44:30,000 --> 01:44:33,919
Speaker 1: that's become a refrain in my life since then, because

1836
01:44:34,760 --> 01:44:38,599
Speaker 1: the lore like, if it doesn't cost you something, it's

1837
01:44:38,640 --> 01:44:42,920
Speaker 1: not a sacrifice. Friends, Like the definition of a sacrifice

1838
01:44:43,320 --> 01:44:45,880
Speaker 1: is it costs you. You have to lay something down, right,

1839
01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:48,400
Speaker 1: And so I think it's that's a beautiful it's a

1840
01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:52,439
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful thing. The second thing is you and

1841
01:44:52,439 --> 01:44:54,519
Speaker 1: I have talked about this, and I'm not like, I

1842
01:44:54,560 --> 01:44:57,280
Speaker 1: haven't done all the academic research and and and so

1843
01:44:57,439 --> 01:45:00,400
Speaker 1: maybe it's not fully true, but I think that there's

1844
01:45:00,400 --> 01:45:03,479
Speaker 1: a possibility. And that is that that quote that you

1845
01:45:03,680 --> 01:45:06,960
Speaker 1: that you use from C. S. Lewis further up and

1846
01:45:07,000 --> 01:45:13,160
Speaker 1: further in is you know. C. S. Lewis was a brilliance.

1847
01:45:13,680 --> 01:45:18,160
Speaker 1: Uh Man studied words new words really well. And if

1848
01:45:18,200 --> 01:45:20,160
Speaker 1: you if you're listening to this, I'm gonna nerd out

1849
01:45:20,160 --> 01:45:23,240
Speaker 1: for a second because the difference between further and Farther

1850
01:45:23,880 --> 01:45:28,439
Speaker 1: is important, right. Farther is when you're talking about a

1851
01:45:28,479 --> 01:45:34,320
Speaker 1: physical distance. Further is when you're not right. So so

1852
01:45:34,439 --> 01:45:36,200
Speaker 1: what do you use further? When do you use farther?

1853
01:45:36,320 --> 01:45:40,240
Speaker 1: If you're saying I walked farther than you, right, then

1854
01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:42,400
Speaker 1: that's in relation to a distance.

1855
01:45:42,560 --> 01:45:42,720
Speaker 2: Right.

1856
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:48,840
Speaker 1: But an example of further is I I would go

1857
01:45:49,360 --> 01:45:54,240
Speaker 1: further than anyone to show my love for you, right whatever, Right?

1858
01:45:56,160 --> 01:45:58,400
Speaker 1: When C. S. Lewis talks about that term, he uses further.

1859
01:45:58,520 --> 01:46:00,640
Speaker 1: When he uses that phrase, he uses and I think

1860
01:46:00,680 --> 01:46:03,519
Speaker 1: that's really important because what Cus lewis is not what

1861
01:46:03,640 --> 01:46:07,599
Speaker 1: is doing there, I believe, is he's not talking about

1862
01:46:07,600 --> 01:46:12,640
Speaker 1: a physical distance. He's talking about a spiritual reality, a

1863
01:46:12,800 --> 01:46:16,960
Speaker 1: spiritual distance. It's not something that can be measured physically.

1864
01:46:17,000 --> 01:46:21,360
Speaker 1: He's not talking about walking. He's talking about getting going

1865
01:46:21,560 --> 01:46:26,240
Speaker 1: further up and further in. And I think that's beautiful,

1866
01:46:26,640 --> 01:46:29,400
Speaker 1: right that in the discussion on AA that we had

1867
01:46:29,479 --> 01:46:33,599
Speaker 1: last week, in this discussion, in all that I do

1868
01:46:33,800 --> 01:46:36,320
Speaker 1: in my work now that I've turned into a ministry,

1869
01:46:36,840 --> 01:46:40,799
Speaker 1: is I want you to have Jesus, right, I want

1870
01:46:41,040 --> 01:46:44,080
Speaker 1: more of Jesus for you, right, I want you to

1871
01:46:44,120 --> 01:46:48,920
Speaker 1: go further up and further in and so often what

1872
01:46:49,040 --> 01:46:53,200
Speaker 1: I see, especially in sobriety culture, is that people stop

1873
01:46:53,320 --> 01:46:57,719
Speaker 1: at sobriety, they settle for AA, they settle for daily meetings,

1874
01:46:57,880 --> 01:47:01,360
Speaker 1: they settle for those I like, they've just switched their idols.

1875
01:47:01,560 --> 01:47:03,679
Speaker 1: And I don't want you to switch your idols, right,

1876
01:47:03,960 --> 01:47:05,960
Speaker 1: And I think what Christina is calling us to the

1877
01:47:06,080 --> 01:47:11,120
Speaker 1: heart of what she's calling to us to today is

1878
01:47:11,120 --> 01:47:14,800
Speaker 1: is to lay down our idols, right, And that when

1879
01:47:14,880 --> 01:47:19,720
Speaker 1: you look at the origins of the enneagram, it has

1880
01:47:19,800 --> 01:47:24,479
Speaker 1: been baked into it to be an idol, and she

1881
01:47:24,840 --> 01:47:28,600
Speaker 1: and that's what is being called out here, right, is

1882
01:47:28,640 --> 01:47:33,320
Speaker 1: that these origins have have Is it any wonder that

1883
01:47:33,400 --> 01:47:37,040
Speaker 1: when you look at the origins of this tool that

1884
01:47:37,360 --> 01:47:43,200
Speaker 1: so many have become just so it's become almost like

1885
01:47:43,240 --> 01:47:45,840
Speaker 1: a religion in itself. We use that term flippently. Oh

1886
01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:49,599
Speaker 1: you know, it's turned into a religious And yet maybe

1887
01:47:49,960 --> 01:47:54,479
Speaker 1: that's not a bug. But that's a feature, right, That's

1888
01:47:54,520 --> 01:47:57,520
Speaker 1: a feature of the tool, not a bug, right, Christina.

1889
01:47:57,640 --> 01:48:02,759
Speaker 1: If people you know, I have the the articles linked

1890
01:48:02,760 --> 01:48:04,920
Speaker 1: in the show notes, but if people want to follow you,

1891
01:48:05,000 --> 01:48:07,200
Speaker 1: follow your journey, follow more of your writing, which I

1892
01:48:07,200 --> 01:48:10,680
Speaker 1: would highly highly encourage them to do where can they go?

1893
01:48:12,160 --> 01:48:15,640
Speaker 2: So you can find me on substack at Christina Lynwallace

1894
01:48:15,720 --> 01:48:18,280
Speaker 2: dot substack dot com. That's where my writing hangs out.

1895
01:48:18,320 --> 01:48:21,839
Speaker 2: And I also I host a monthly creative writing workshop

1896
01:48:21,960 --> 01:48:24,799
Speaker 2: for my paid subscribers on there where we do Celtic

1897
01:48:24,880 --> 01:48:27,519
Speaker 2: liturgical prayer at the beginning and end of the hour

1898
01:48:27,640 --> 01:48:29,719
Speaker 2: and in the middle we do a creative writing exercise

1899
01:48:29,760 --> 01:48:31,800
Speaker 2: every month. So I teach creative writing rooted as a

1900
01:48:31,800 --> 01:48:34,720
Speaker 2: spiritual practice of prayer. And then you can find me

1901
01:48:34,760 --> 01:48:37,599
Speaker 2: on my website at Christinalnwallace dot com. And that's where

1902
01:48:37,640 --> 01:48:40,400
Speaker 2: you can find like the devotionals that I've written, the

1903
01:48:40,439 --> 01:48:43,479
Speaker 2: writing course that I teach, which you can sign up

1904
01:48:43,479 --> 01:48:45,720
Speaker 2: for at any time, Like enrollment's always open to join

1905
01:48:45,760 --> 01:48:47,960
Speaker 2: my writing course if you're thinking about wanting to write

1906
01:48:47,960 --> 01:48:50,559
Speaker 2: a book or book, a one on one session with

1907
01:48:50,600 --> 01:48:53,360
Speaker 2: me for some writing mentorship, any of that is on

1908
01:48:53,439 --> 01:48:56,799
Speaker 2: my website Christina Lanwallace dot com and it's Christina Lanwallas

1909
01:48:56,840 --> 01:48:59,080
Speaker 2: dot substack dot com over on substack. Those are the

1910
01:48:59,080 --> 01:49:00,000
Speaker 2: two places I hang out.

1911
01:49:01,560 --> 01:49:03,760
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you so much for spending the time.

1912
01:49:03,760 --> 01:49:06,439
Speaker 1: If you've if you've endured till the end, and listened

1913
01:49:06,479 --> 01:49:09,599
Speaker 1: to this podcast. Thank you. It will take the cake

1914
01:49:09,640 --> 01:49:11,880
Speaker 1: for the longest podcast up until this point that we've

1915
01:49:11,920 --> 01:49:15,640
Speaker 1: ever done. And important. I think that's important because we

1916
01:49:15,720 --> 01:49:18,120
Speaker 1: want to treat it with care.

1917
01:49:18,240 --> 01:49:21,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, can I make it one like minute longer? By

1918
01:49:21,720 --> 01:49:25,120
Speaker 2: finishing with a C. S. Lewis quote please, Well duh,

1919
01:49:26,000 --> 01:49:27,880
Speaker 2: I knew you were going to say yes, so, but

1920
01:49:27,960 --> 01:49:29,719
Speaker 2: I just want to be polite because it's your podcast,

1921
01:49:29,760 --> 01:49:33,760
Speaker 2: you know, just on the on the note of that

1922
01:49:33,880 --> 01:49:36,519
Speaker 2: further up and further in and there being something more.

1923
01:49:37,320 --> 01:49:39,640
Speaker 2: Just that quote from the Weight of Glory came to

1924
01:49:39,680 --> 01:49:41,320
Speaker 2: mind that I would love to read.

1925
01:49:42,240 --> 01:49:45,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, please, Okay, I've got it up here.

1926
01:49:46,439 --> 01:49:48,400
Speaker 2: So this is cs Lewis from the Weight of Glory.

1927
01:49:48,439 --> 01:49:51,720
Speaker 2: He says, it would seem that our Lord finds our

1928
01:49:51,800 --> 01:49:56,800
Speaker 2: desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half

1929
01:49:56,800 --> 01:50:01,400
Speaker 2: hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition.

1930
01:50:02,160 --> 01:50:06,519
Speaker 2: When infinite joy is offered us like an ignorant child

1931
01:50:06,560 --> 01:50:08,720
Speaker 2: who wants to go on making mud pies and a

1932
01:50:08,760 --> 01:50:11,800
Speaker 2: slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the

1933
01:50:11,840 --> 01:50:15,040
Speaker 2: offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far

1934
01:50:15,200 --> 01:50:16,320
Speaker 2: too easily pleased.

1935
01:50:19,600 --> 01:50:24,080
Speaker 1: So good, so good, Like I have a I use

1936
01:50:24,120 --> 01:50:26,559
Speaker 1: every note and I have an entire ever note that's

1937
01:50:26,680 --> 01:50:29,519
Speaker 1: just dedicated to like quotes and ideas for like, oh

1938
01:50:29,560 --> 01:50:33,960
Speaker 1: maybe this would make a great little note on substack

1939
01:50:34,200 --> 01:50:38,960
Speaker 1: or as a you know, Instagram whatever. And it's funny.

1940
01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:43,080
Speaker 1: I was reviewing that this morning and I had written

1941
01:50:43,080 --> 01:50:47,360
Speaker 1: in that that little notebook desires quote from C. S. Lewis,

1942
01:50:48,680 --> 01:50:53,080
Speaker 1: And at some point we were talking and I looked

1943
01:50:53,120 --> 01:50:54,880
Speaker 1: down and I was like, desires quote from CS Luis,

1944
01:50:54,880 --> 01:50:57,360
Speaker 1: And I was like, what is that quote again? And

1945
01:50:57,439 --> 01:51:01,120
Speaker 1: is it any wonder that you literally just the podcast

1946
01:51:01,200 --> 01:51:03,880
Speaker 1: with the desires quote from Ceseuis, which I think is

1947
01:51:03,960 --> 01:51:05,240
Speaker 1: one of his best.

1948
01:51:05,720 --> 01:51:08,640
Speaker 2: So it's one of my favorites. John, thank you for

1949
01:51:08,680 --> 01:51:11,280
Speaker 2: having me on, Thanks for letting me waffle for as

1950
01:51:11,320 --> 01:51:14,320
Speaker 2: the brit say, waffle for an hour and forty five minutes.

1951
01:51:14,320 --> 01:51:15,040
Speaker 2: Really appreciate it.

1952
01:51:15,360 --> 01:51:18,080
Speaker 1: Well, thanks to not treating me like a cow. You

1953
01:51:18,120 --> 01:51:22,080
Speaker 1: know now that we're using brit terms, So thank you. Christina. Well,

1954
01:51:22,280 --> 01:51:24,960
Speaker 1: well we're gonna have to have you back on. I

1955
01:51:24,960 --> 01:51:26,720
Speaker 1: would love to hear for some other stuff and find

1956
01:51:26,720 --> 01:51:28,680
Speaker 1: excuses because I love it. We'll talk soon.

1957
01:51:29,640 --> 01:51:33,799
Speaker 2: Take care, Oh.

1958
01:51:35,200 --> 01:51:38,080
Speaker 1: Take a breath. I know that was a lot. There

1959
01:51:38,160 --> 01:51:40,240
Speaker 1: was a lot there. There was a lot of ground

1960
01:51:40,479 --> 01:51:43,720
Speaker 1: we've covered. You know, I could say so many things

1961
01:51:43,760 --> 01:51:46,240
Speaker 1: about what I took away from there personally, but I

1962
01:51:46,240 --> 01:51:48,840
Speaker 1: think I do think one of the biggest things, one

1963
01:51:48,840 --> 01:51:54,160
Speaker 1: of my biggest takeaways from that conversation is really it's

1964
01:51:54,160 --> 01:51:56,719
Speaker 1: not just about the enneagram, it's not just about the origins,

1965
01:51:56,760 --> 01:52:03,320
Speaker 1: but it's it's regarding the deeper question of what are

1966
01:52:03,320 --> 01:52:08,240
Speaker 1: we allowing to shape our identity? And I think it

1967
01:52:08,320 --> 01:52:14,360
Speaker 1: is interesting that that part of why Christina, I think

1968
01:52:14,360 --> 01:52:18,599
Speaker 1: has gotten so much pushedback is that so many people

1969
01:52:18,840 --> 01:52:23,360
Speaker 1: have used the enneagram to shape their identity and whether

1970
01:52:23,520 --> 01:52:29,320
Speaker 1: or not the origins that we're talking about are are

1971
01:52:29,439 --> 01:52:33,200
Speaker 1: there like anything that we use to shape our identity,

1972
01:52:33,200 --> 01:52:38,280
Speaker 1: Anything that we latch onto that isn't rooted in the Gospel,

1973
01:52:38,320 --> 01:52:42,280
Speaker 1: that isn't rooted in Jesus is something that I think

1974
01:52:42,320 --> 01:52:45,840
Speaker 1: we should rethink. And so that's that's just one of

1975
01:52:45,840 --> 01:52:48,719
Speaker 1: the many reasons why I think that this conversation matters

1976
01:52:48,720 --> 01:52:52,080
Speaker 1: so much. Again, not because the goal is to shame

1977
01:52:52,280 --> 01:52:59,240
Speaker 1: or create panic or or whatnot, but because the goal

1978
01:52:59,760 --> 01:53:05,519
Speaker 1: is to is to make sure that anything in our

1979
01:53:05,640 --> 01:53:10,519
Speaker 1: lives that we are using to form the basis. Anything

1980
01:53:10,560 --> 01:53:14,600
Speaker 1: we're using to describe ourselves is rooted in Scripture and

1981
01:53:14,680 --> 01:53:16,639
Speaker 1: is rooted in Jesus. And so you know, for example,

1982
01:53:16,680 --> 01:53:21,640
Speaker 1: I've talked about why I use the term alcoholic, and

1983
01:53:21,680 --> 01:53:24,679
Speaker 1: I say, because I'm not using it as an identity statement.

1984
01:53:24,720 --> 01:53:28,519
Speaker 1: I'm using it as a descriptor. I'm using it in

1985
01:53:28,560 --> 01:53:32,920
Speaker 1: the way that that Paul talks about. Listen, I was this,

1986
01:53:33,360 --> 01:53:36,240
Speaker 1: I did this thing, wretched man that I even am right,

1987
01:53:36,880 --> 01:53:41,479
Speaker 1: And that makes Jesus known more because his power is

1988
01:53:41,479 --> 01:53:47,720
Speaker 1: made perfect in my weakness. And so I appreciated Christina's humility.

1989
01:53:48,960 --> 01:53:51,720
Speaker 1: I appreciated the fact that she was, you know, wasn't

1990
01:53:51,760 --> 01:53:54,519
Speaker 1: speaking to someone looking down on others, but was really

1991
01:53:54,520 --> 01:53:58,639
Speaker 1: looking was speaking as someone who has been right where

1992
01:53:59,360 --> 01:54:03,920
Speaker 1: many of us have been or are, and really just

1993
01:54:04,000 --> 01:54:06,720
Speaker 1: trying to say, hey, I just want to raise the

1994
01:54:06,800 --> 01:54:11,880
Speaker 1: alarm here and present to you my research and see

1995
01:54:11,920 --> 01:54:14,479
Speaker 1: what you think. So my encouragement to you is simple.

1996
01:54:14,840 --> 01:54:18,200
Speaker 1: You know, don't just react emotionally, take some time think

1997
01:54:18,240 --> 01:54:22,599
Speaker 1: about this, don't immediately dismiss it, but also don't blindly

1998
01:54:22,640 --> 01:54:26,960
Speaker 1: accept it. Write, read research, pray, think, deeply, invite Jesus

1999
01:54:26,960 --> 01:54:31,479
Speaker 1: into this aspect of your life. And so again I've

2000
01:54:31,560 --> 01:54:36,920
Speaker 1: linked the articles that Christina has was talking about in

2001
01:54:37,000 --> 01:54:39,280
Speaker 1: that episode. I've linked them in the show notes. Read

2002
01:54:39,280 --> 01:54:43,080
Speaker 1: them for yourselves. Read that source material yourself. Want to

2003
01:54:43,120 --> 01:54:48,480
Speaker 1: thank Life Audio as someone who as an organization, who

2004
01:54:48,520 --> 01:54:51,280
Speaker 1: has been there with us since the beginning of this

2005
01:54:51,360 --> 01:54:53,640
Speaker 1: podcast and who makes it possible. You can go to

2006
01:54:53,720 --> 01:54:58,560
Speaker 1: lifeaudio dot com and listen to other great podcasts and

2007
01:54:58,920 --> 01:55:03,160
Speaker 1: be encourag again. Go to Veritasrecovery dot org. You can

2008
01:55:03,320 --> 01:55:07,320
Speaker 1: make a non excuse me a text deductible donation to

2009
01:55:08,320 --> 01:55:12,720
Speaker 1: the nonprofit there if you want to see this podcast

2010
01:55:12,880 --> 01:55:17,120
Speaker 1: continue on and cover more, hopefully what you think are

2011
01:55:17,200 --> 01:55:21,960
Speaker 1: great topics like this, with care and concern, but always

2012
01:55:22,080 --> 01:55:26,320
Speaker 1: pointing you to Jesus. Love you all, We'll see you

2013
01:55:26,400 --> 01:55:28,440
Speaker 1: back here next week.