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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm Dr. James Spencer.

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Speaker 1: Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways

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Speaker 1: God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural,

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Speaker 1: and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now,

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Speaker 1: on to today's episode of Thinking Christian.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everybody.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Will Acuff. Will

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Speaker 1: is the author of a new book, No Elevator to Everest.

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Speaker 1: Excuse me, that's my Old Testament coming out. No Elevator

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Speaker 1: to Everest, Shift from Survive to Thrive.

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Speaker 2: Through Spirit-Led Self-Awareness.

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Speaker 1: He's also the co-founder of a ministry called Corner to Corner.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm happy to be here with Will, and

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Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to having this conversation.

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Speaker 2: So Will, welcome to the program.

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Speaker 3: James, thank you so much for having me. I'm a

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Speaker 3: fan of the podcast. So to get to be dialoguing

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Speaker 3: with you today is a lot of fun.

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Speaker 2: No, that's sweet, man. I appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, we were talking before you, you've listened to

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Speaker 1: the episode with Zach and so Zach Lambert. And so

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Speaker 1: I really enjoyed talking with him and I'm sure we'll

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Speaker 1: have a great conversation too.

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Speaker 2: So absolutely.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I thought maybe we'd start out. What is Corner to Corner?

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Speaker 1: I know it's a ministry in Nashville, but kind of

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Speaker 1: explain maybe how that came about and what you're doing

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Speaker 1: in that ministry.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. So Corner to Corner, we are a

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Speaker 3: faith-based nonprofit that helps people from historically low-income neighborhoods plan, start,

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Speaker 3: and grow their own small business with the core belief

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Speaker 3: that ownership ends poverty. But how we got started was...

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Speaker 3: 18 years ago, my wife and I, we were just

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Speaker 3: really convicted that we did not have a theology of neighbor.

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Speaker 3: I'm a pastor's kid, grew up in the church, had

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Speaker 3: all this great framework. But if you said to me,

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Speaker 3: how do you show up and love neighbor as self,

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Speaker 3: as a lifestyle? I couldn't have answered that. I knew

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Speaker 3: mission trip. I knew one-off Christian adventure, but I didn't

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Speaker 3: know lifestyle. And we realized that we needed to move

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Speaker 3: in to that kind of neighborhood, a neighborhood, you know,

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Speaker 3: under resourced with all the normal stats that you see

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Speaker 3: in order to learn how to do that. And so

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Speaker 3: 18 years ago, we moved in and my wife, she's incredible.

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Speaker 3: She's way tougher than me as well. And she immediately

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Speaker 3: got a job at the men's prison. And she became

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Speaker 3: a former offender job training specialist, which is a fancy

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Speaker 3: phrase that just means she helped folks moving from prison

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Speaker 3: back into the community, get stable employment.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: And they were coming back to the neighborhood that we

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Speaker 3: had moved into. So day in, day out, we started

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Speaker 3: doing life with these neighbors. And what we consistently saw

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Speaker 3: was that you had all these image bearers, with God-given passion, creativity,

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Speaker 3: and drive, but who often didn't have a bridge to

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Speaker 3: express that in the marketplace. And so back in 2011,

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Speaker 3: we launched Corner to Corner with this vision of how

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Speaker 3: do you do economic development where neighbors get to thrive

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Speaker 3: on their own terms? And I think so much of

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Speaker 3: the nonprofit space, we see, hey, let me do good

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Speaker 3: to you like this. Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: And the neighbor's like, well, that's not kind of what

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Speaker 3: I want, right? Or, hey, I'm going to help you

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Speaker 3: get an extra dollar or two more of earnings per hour.

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Speaker 3: And the neighbor's like, cool, I'm still going to be

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Speaker 3: broke at the end of the year. That's not going

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Speaker 3: to move the needle. And so we saw entrepreneurship as

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Speaker 3: a way to help image bearers grow something that they

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Speaker 3: really owned. And so fast forward, started in the neighborhood,

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Speaker 3: just one neighborhood, And now we've launched over 1600 of

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Speaker 3: these entrepreneurs. Last year, we put 37 million back into

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Speaker 3: the neighborhood economy. And we are on track this year

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Speaker 3: to clear, you know, the mid forties for like $ 45 million.

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Speaker 3: That's fantastic. And it's, yeah, it's good. And it's neighbors like,

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Speaker 3: you know, we had one graduate came through the other year,

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Speaker 3: last year. And she's a school teacher in Nashville. Right.

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Speaker 3: And if anybody knows anything about Nashville, it's gotten crazy

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Speaker 3: expensive lately. Right. So if you're a school teacher living

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Speaker 3: off of those wages and you're looking ahead at how

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Speaker 3: you're going to send your own kid to college, right.

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Speaker 3: Cause you value education, man, you're looking at a massive

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Speaker 3: gap in earnings. Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So she came to us and she was like, Hey,

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Speaker 3: I want to launch my own catering business, like as

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Speaker 3: a solopreneur kind of side hustle, right? And her goal

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Speaker 3: was $ 10, 000 in year one, $ 3, 000 of overhead, $ 7, 000 to

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Speaker 3: get that college savings fund going. Well, fast forward the

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Speaker 3: end of the year, I hear from our team that

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Speaker 3: she did over $ 36, 000. And so I called and I

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Speaker 3: was like, what happened here, right? Like, what was your secret?

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Speaker 3: And she's like, well, you know, Will... there's two types

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Speaker 3: of marketing. And I was like, okay, go on, you know,

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Speaker 3: tell me about these two types of marketing. She goes,

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Speaker 3: you can take pictures of your food and put it

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Speaker 3: on Instagram and hope that people order, or you can

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Speaker 3: cater for free and close deals because your food's that good.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, so how did you do it?

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Speaker 3: And she goes, well, I found out that TSU, which

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Speaker 3: is a college here in Nashville, needed a new caterer

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Speaker 3: for their marching band. And this is, you know, the

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Speaker 3: kind of marching band that has like 9,000 different types

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Speaker 3: of drums. This is a lot of people. Grammy award winning. Well,

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Speaker 3: she caters for free and she goes down there and

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Speaker 3: she takes her grandma's caramel crumble cake, right? A recipe

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Speaker 3: that she learned as a six-year-old girl. And if you

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Speaker 3: hear her tell the rest of that, like the story

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Speaker 3: of learning this while, you know, sitting in her grandma's kitchen, Right.

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Speaker 3: You're like tearing up at this story. And you're also hungry. Right.

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Speaker 3: Like you want to taste that cake. And she walks

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Speaker 3: a slice of it over to the band director and says,

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Speaker 3: you know, hey, I made this for you. And he

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Speaker 3: takes a bite. And when his eyes are wide is

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Speaker 3: how good this thing is. Then she says, hey, and

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Speaker 3: I hear you're looking for a new caterer for this season.

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Speaker 3: And she closes the deal. Right. And I was like,

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Speaker 3: that's you're an entrepreneur.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: And now there's this huge investment into that college savings fund.

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Speaker 3: And so, you know, we have one thousand six hundred

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Speaker 3: and thirty two of those stories. Yeah. Because at the

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Speaker 3: end of the day, ownership ends poverty for a family

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Speaker 3: and for a community.

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Speaker 2: That's really fantastic.

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Speaker 1: It seems like, so having read Elevator to Everest, it

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Speaker 1: seems like some of the things that you talk about

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Speaker 1: in Elevator to Everest, well, would apply really well into

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Speaker 1: this sort of entrepreneurial space as you're working with people.

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Speaker 1: Because entrepreneurship isn't, I mean, the successes are awesome, but

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Speaker 1: it's often, you know, a series of failures before you

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Speaker 1: hit that success button.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: And so getting people to be that sort of self-aware

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Speaker 1: and spirit-led, it would.

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Speaker 2: Seem like those two would really merge well together. Do

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Speaker 2: you find that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. I think, I mean, the reality is if

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Speaker 3: you ask any entrepreneur if fear plays a role in

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Speaker 3: their work, they're going to be like, oh, heck yeah, right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But so often we then move subconsciously from that fear, right?

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Speaker 3: And it makes us increase kind of frantic action, right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And all the studies show that it increases our cortisol,

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Speaker 3: our stress hormones, right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Which decreases our creativity and makes us make worse decisions, right?

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Speaker 3: And so self-awareness to go, oh, I am really afraid

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Speaker 3: of this. Okay, what's the story I'm telling myself, right?

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Speaker 3: And for people of faith, often we are telling a

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Speaker 3: story that is not shaped by God, not shaped by

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Speaker 3: His Word, and not shaped by His living Holy Spirit, right?

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Speaker 3: And instead, we're telling ourselves a narrative of fear that

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Speaker 3: then drives our actions. So, yeah, great, great connection point there.

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Speaker 2: And for you, it didn't really emerge out of that.

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Speaker 1: Like this book doesn't come out of a place where

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Speaker 1: you had, you know, some sort of big entrepreneurial failure

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden discovered something. Yours was more

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Speaker 1: familial and, you know, just your everyday life.

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Speaker 2: I've heard you talk about it. I watched a couple

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Speaker 2: of the other interviews you did.

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Speaker 1: And to me, it's like life was just sort of

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Speaker 1: running ahead of you and you're just trying to keep up.

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Speaker 1: And so talk a little bit about, you know, what

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Speaker 1: prompted you to write this book?

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Speaker 2: What prompted you to find these practices? You know, how

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Speaker 2: did all that come about? Yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 3: So, um, corner to corner had this kind of trajectory of,

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Speaker 3: you know, roughly up into the right. So if you're

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Speaker 3: watching from the outside, you go, Oh man, these guys

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Speaker 3: are killing it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Meanwhile, at home, what was happening was both my kids

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Speaker 3: are through domestic adoption. Both my kids out of Memphis,

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Speaker 3: my wife and I really felt called to grow our

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Speaker 3: family that way. And our son was, At a rate

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Speaker 3: around age two and a half. And we were with

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Speaker 3: both kids from birth. He stopped sleeping through the night,

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Speaker 3: not just like once or every so often, you know,

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Speaker 3: but like, I mean, months and months and then years. Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Um and that started us down all the specialist doctors

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Speaker 3: all the diagnoses you know um which we we started

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Speaker 3: living a life that was very different from our peers

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Speaker 3: right yeah um And the stress and the pressure and

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Speaker 3: the lack of sleep and the intensity, right. That was building.

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Speaker 3: And then simultaneously, you know, I had come from a

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Speaker 3: background where if you find a problem, you just work

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Speaker 3: your butt off until you solve it.

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Speaker 2: Right. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Um, and if it hasn't been solved yet, just work harder.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Rinse and repeat until it's solved. Well, this ability

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Speaker 3: doesn't respond to that. Right. Um, And so I was

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Speaker 3: in a recipe for just emotional burnout. And I remember,

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Speaker 3: I remember feeling like battery acid, right? Just like, oh,

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Speaker 3: like I'm just hollowed out and kind of toxic. And

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Speaker 3: my wife was like, hey, she had gone to this

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Speaker 3: great trauma therapy place. And she was like, hey, you

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Speaker 3: need to go. And I was like, do I? You know,

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Speaker 3: aren't we kind of therapized enough as a family? Right.

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Speaker 3: which side note, like marital advice here, don't invent words

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Speaker 3: to debate your spouse. Like that's not a, that's not

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Speaker 3: going to work out for you. But, but she, my

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Speaker 3: wife is an Enneagram eight. If you know that world, right?

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Speaker 3: Like she's, yeah, yeah. And I am as well. Right.

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Speaker 3: We're both eight. And, but she drew a line in

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Speaker 3: the sand and I listened and I went and And

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Speaker 3: I went to this trauma place and like, it's a

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Speaker 3: retreat center. Day one, I'm there with a chip on

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Speaker 3: my shoulder. You know, I'm here to fix my wife,

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Speaker 3: that kind of approach, right? Just, oh, just the arrogance

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Speaker 3: of it. Again, I only have one model, fix, right?

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Speaker 3: And by the end of day two, I was cracked open.

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Speaker 3: Like it's hard to describe, but I was connected to

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Speaker 3: God's infinite love for me. And just such a profoundly

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Speaker 3: healing way that I had this transformative experience, but I

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Speaker 3: knew I was going back to a really hard context,

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Speaker 3: you know? And so I, I was like, okay, God,

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Speaker 3: I don't want this to be this one mountaintop experience

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Speaker 3: I had.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, how many of us have gone to a

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Speaker 3: retreat or a church thing? And then like three weeks later,

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Speaker 3: it feels like nothing changed. And so I took my

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Speaker 3: whole life and I said, God, here's everything. Let's turn

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Speaker 3: it into a joy lab. Let's figure out what does

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Speaker 3: it look like to live more joyfully in the Lord

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Speaker 3: every day. And so I just started coming up with

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Speaker 3: all these different ways and practices and rhythms. A lot

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Speaker 3: of them grounded in kind of the tradition of contemplative

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Speaker 3: prayer and faiths. Um, and, and that's what gave rise

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Speaker 3: to the book. The book is really, I took that

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Speaker 3: journal and turned it into a book. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So when you're, um, just kind of returning to a

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Speaker 1: little bit of this, I mean, I went through, I've

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Speaker 1: been in counseling as well. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: I did is knowing myself as an eight, I was like, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I can't go. And I, so, um, I'm a theologian, right?

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Speaker 1: I did the whole PhD theological studies thing. So I'm like, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I probably shouldn't go to a Christian counselor. That was

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Speaker 1: my first thought. I'm like, like, it doesn't need to

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Speaker 1: turn into a debate. And so what I found was

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Speaker 1: my choice of counselor was really crucial. to getting anything through, right?

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Speaker 1: I just needed someone to help guide and I didn't

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Speaker 1: need to have a fight with anybody in the room, right?

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Speaker 1: Not a physical fight, but just like, I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be, you know, sort of in that competitive mode

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Speaker 1: that eights tend to get into. How did that, so

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Speaker 1: when you're in this sort of trauma counseling sort of

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Speaker 1: setting and you're having this big breakthrough, Can you identify

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Speaker 1: some of the elements that really helped you get there?

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Speaker 2: Like, how did you open yourself up to it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, great question. I mean, so I should say

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Speaker 3: this place that I went to is not faith-based, right?

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Speaker 3: And so it just so happened that in my small group,

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Speaker 3: like my therapy small group, we were all believers. And

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Speaker 3: there was, you know, I laugh at God's, you know.

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Speaker 3: his love for me in that, you know? But I,

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Speaker 3: one of the things they did was they can, they

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Speaker 3: helped me see that so much of my life had

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Speaker 3: been driven by performance. And it made receiving love very

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Speaker 3: hard for me because I linked performance to love. And

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Speaker 3: so I always needed to get better in order to

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Speaker 3: be okay enough.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: Almost like you think about the older brother and the

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Speaker 3: prodigal son story. Right. You get this sense when, when

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Speaker 3: the father and his mercy goes out to the darkness and,

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Speaker 3: and to check on his older son who won't come

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Speaker 3: into the party, you know, he, he hears him out

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Speaker 3: and the son's like, you know, you won't even give

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Speaker 3: me a goat. Like, right. Like you're fatted calf for

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Speaker 3: the younger son. Who's an idiot. But me, I don't

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Speaker 3: even get a goat for me and my friends. Right.

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Speaker 3: And the father says to him, wait a minute. All

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Speaker 3: that I have is yours. In other words, this sense

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Speaker 3: of like, you thought this was about like you achieving

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Speaker 3: or you get into a level where then you could

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Speaker 3: have the party. And the father's like, you could have

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Speaker 3: been having a party every single night, right? Like you

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Speaker 3: have all of my love, you know? And so that

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Speaker 3: was a big thing that happened there was unwinding that.

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Speaker 3: And then another big shift for me was I was

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Speaker 3: in a massive victim mindset. um, without realizing it, you know? Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And kind of that, I won't be better unless this

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Speaker 3: thing gets better. That person does this. Sure. Fill in

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Speaker 3: the blank. And they introduced me to the idea of

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Speaker 3: radical responsibility. Um, and that I was a hundred percent

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Speaker 3: responsible for my own physical, emotional, and spiritual wellbeing. Um, and,

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Speaker 3: and I don't mean in a salvific sense, right?

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Speaker 2: Understood. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Uh, They helped me to see, oh, wait a minute.

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Speaker 3: If I'm staying in that victim mindset, then I'm always

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Speaker 3: waiting for context to change versus grabbing a hold of

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Speaker 3: the change myself. And I was ready for it, man.

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Speaker 3: Once I saw that, I was like, oh my gosh.

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Speaker 3: And that gave me a ton of freedom.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think I went through that experience as well.

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Speaker 1: I kept saying, well, if I just get past this

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Speaker 1: season at work or, you know, once.

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Speaker 2: This thing gets done, then.

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Speaker 1: I can be normal again. Now I can slow down.

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Speaker 1: And it never happened. Around every corner was just another sprint,

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Speaker 1: you know? And so it didn't matter what I turned,

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Speaker 1: whatever happened, it was like, I'm sprinting again.

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Speaker 2: And all of a sudden I'm back in the exact

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Speaker 2: same patterns.

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Speaker 1: And so, you know, I had to figure out how

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Speaker 1: to sort of put the brakes on and actually break

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Speaker 1: the pattern without, and, and I'd be interested to hear

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Speaker 1: your thoughts on this. You, you had a little, you know,

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Speaker 1: your context is a little different than mine in, in

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Speaker 1: dealing with some of this. But one of the things

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Speaker 1: I found was that I became, I had to wrestle

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Speaker 1: with going from overly ambitious James, right. To no ambition, James, right.

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Speaker 2: Because when you start putting the brakes on, you know,

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Speaker 2: my tendency is always the extremes, right.

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Speaker 1: And so finding that sort of sweet spot where I

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Speaker 1: can say, no, I'm ambitious, but I also recognize that

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Speaker 1: a lot of the things people are asking me to

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Speaker 1: do aren't going to have the effect that even they.

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Speaker 2: Think they're going to have.

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Speaker 1: And so how do I start sifting and sorting and

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Speaker 1: actually doing the things that are going to, in your.

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Speaker 2: Words, produce joy, right? What's going to add to that joy?

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Speaker 1: And sort of in my context, what's going to have

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Speaker 1: an impact on the work or an impact on the

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Speaker 1: family or what have you? Like, what are those things

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Speaker 1: that I need to be thinking through? What's going to

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Speaker 1: have the most impact? And then doing those and sort

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Speaker 1: of just being okay, not having control over most of

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Speaker 1: my life, right?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Confronting the illusion of control.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so maybe talk a little bit about that. Maybe

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Speaker 1: if this connects, that whole designing your day concept, I

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Speaker 1: think in your book really resonated with me. I thought

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Speaker 1: that was fantastic the way you described it. So maybe

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Speaker 1: if it connects.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, so I'd say like, I kind

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Speaker 3: of went on this progressive journey, right? Where the first

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Speaker 3: thing I was doing was developing a daily practice that

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Speaker 3: connected me with enough self-awareness to start shifting my day, right?

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Speaker 3: And when I say self-awareness, what I really mean is,

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Speaker 3: you know, kind of the language of Paul, take every

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Speaker 3: thought captive, right? That assumes that you're developing awareness to

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Speaker 3: actually know what's happening in the landscape of your heart

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Speaker 3: and mind, right? And so I started getting still every

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Speaker 3: morning so I could go, oh, here's the big thing

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Speaker 3: that's making me afraid today. Or here's the big thing

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Speaker 3: that's driving this anger, right? How do I name it,

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Speaker 3: release it to the Lord, right? Like cast all your

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Speaker 3: anxieties on God because he cares for.

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Speaker 1: You, right?

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Speaker 3: Like how do you actually do that? And once I

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Speaker 3: did that, kind of a big second phase was what

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Speaker 3: you mentioned, this design your day, which was around, okay,

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Speaker 3: if it's true that I'm an image bearer who has

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Speaker 3: the abiding Holy Spirit, then on some level, I have

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Speaker 3: everything I need to grow in the fruit of the

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Speaker 3: Spirit right now, right? Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, et cetera, right?

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Speaker 3: And so what I started to realize was, In my day,

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Speaker 3: my normal day to day, I would have work activities

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Speaker 3: and things like that that made me feel incredibly alive, right?

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Speaker 3: Some have called them like a full body yes. And

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Speaker 3: I think all of us can relate. We might have

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Speaker 3: that one work thing where we come away and we're like, yes,

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Speaker 3: I could flip over a car with my bare hands, right?

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Speaker 3: And then later we have a meeting with a couple

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Speaker 3: of people and we walk out feeling like we were

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Speaker 3: hit by a bus, right? And so I started a

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Speaker 3: journal every night at the end of the day. just

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Speaker 3: going through the list of things that I did, not

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Speaker 3: in great detail. And then I noticed, did they give

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Speaker 3: me energy? Did they keep me neutral or did they

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Speaker 3: drain me? And my belief was, and still is, that

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Speaker 3: the things that gave me energy were almost like Holy

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Speaker 3: Spirit breadcrumbs going, hey, this is what you were made for.

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Speaker 3: The reason it feels so good is because that's you

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Speaker 3: being played in tune, right? By the Most High. Gotcha.

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Speaker 3: So then, then it's the belief that I can actually

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Speaker 3: move towards more.

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Speaker 2: Of those and.

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Speaker 3: Design my day around that versus, I mean, usually when

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Speaker 3: you talk to somebody, they're like, oh, you know, most

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Speaker 3: of my day kind of sucks. I get to do

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Speaker 3: one thing a lot, you know, like there's just this

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Speaker 3: acceptance of so much awfulness. It's like, I actually think

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Speaker 3: he gained that you may have life and have it

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Speaker 3: to the full. Right. Yeah. Like not maybe someday when

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Speaker 3: you die, but actually right now you were meant to

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Speaker 3: be an ambassador of the good news. What would it

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Speaker 3: look like for you to live like that's true? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So what do you do with the aspects of your

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Speaker 1: life that are inevitably there that aren't life giving? So

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Speaker 1: designing around those experiences, I can get my head around that.

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Speaker 1: but you're not encouraging people to go on sort of

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Speaker 1: a permanent vacation and just do whatever makes them happy.

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Speaker 2: Right. So, so yeah, that.

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Speaker 3: Will quickly make you miserable by the way. Yeah. If

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Speaker 3: you just check out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Uh, work by the way was in the garden

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Speaker 3: right before the fall. So like we are meant to

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Speaker 3: create and build. Right. Um, yeah. So the way I

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Speaker 3: look at it is, um, those things that are draining, right. Um,

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Speaker 3: you run those through, if you, if you keep this

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Speaker 3: kind of journal, right. Say like even just two weeks,

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Speaker 3: you'll notice some patterns. Um, and you take the ones

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Speaker 3: that are draining you and then you delete them, you

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Speaker 3: delegate them or you do them differently. Right. Delete, delegate,

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Speaker 3: do differently. Yep. Delete. You'll often find there's a couple

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Speaker 3: of things you're doing that you started years ago and

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Speaker 3: you're like, why do I even still do it that way? Right. Uh, delegate,

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Speaker 3: especially if you're working in a team or even in

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Speaker 3: your family, right? Like for example, at home, I don't

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Speaker 3: mind cooking. Like I kind of enjoy that process. I'm

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Speaker 3: not good, but I don't mind it. And I don't

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Speaker 3: want to do the dishes after. My wife doesn't want

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Speaker 3: to cook, but she'll do the dishes, right? So that

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Speaker 3: kind of delegation. Now I've, you know, handed something off

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Speaker 3: that I didn't enjoy. She's got it, right? And there's

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Speaker 3: plenty of ways we can do that at work. But

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Speaker 3: then the trickiest one, to your point, is do differently, right?

433
00:23:29,130 --> 00:23:32,450
Speaker 3: Because that requires you to actually seek the wisdom of

434
00:23:32,490 --> 00:23:37,950
Speaker 3: the Lord, right? And really get still enough and invite creativity.

435
00:23:38,810 --> 00:23:42,250
Speaker 3: And often I'll pray prayers like, hey, God, this thing

436
00:23:42,290 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 3: is on my plate and it's not going anywhere. What

437
00:23:44,980 --> 00:23:46,659
Speaker 3: do you want me to know about it? How do

438
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,140
Speaker 3: you want me to engage in it differently?

439
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:49,260
Speaker 2: Right?

440
00:23:49,890 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 3: And sometimes that's small wins. I tell anybody, don't start

441
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,260
Speaker 3: your day with email. Way to start a miserable reactive

442
00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:03,380
Speaker 3: pattern for the rest of your day. Instead, take that

443
00:24:03,500 --> 00:24:07,139
Speaker 3: first hour to really think through what the big priorities are.

444
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,830
Speaker 3: What's really going to have that big driving impact that

445
00:24:10,850 --> 00:24:14,890
Speaker 3: you're excited about? And then time box your email later

446
00:24:14,970 --> 00:24:17,689
Speaker 3: in the morning. But don't do it all day. Do

447
00:24:17,730 --> 00:24:20,380
Speaker 3: it for 15 minutes. You know, there's things like that

448
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,219
Speaker 3: that create different patterns for us that by the end

449
00:24:24,260 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 3: of the day, we're energized rather than drained.

450
00:24:28,060 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 2: It's really interesting.

451
00:24:28,940 --> 00:24:30,869
Speaker 1: Like when I read through that chapter, some of the

452
00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:34,330
Speaker 1: things I've been thinking through lately are the difference between

453
00:24:35,310 --> 00:24:39,650
Speaker 1: work prior to the fall and work after the fall. Yeah.

454
00:24:40,109 --> 00:24:42,590
Speaker 1: You know, prior to the fall, we have this vision

455
00:24:42,630 --> 00:24:47,610
Speaker 1: of work that is, um, cooperative with creation we might

456
00:24:47,650 --> 00:24:50,150
Speaker 1: say creation is moving in the same direction that we're

457
00:24:50,190 --> 00:24:52,649
Speaker 1: working so tilling and keeping the garden is not a

458
00:24:52,730 --> 00:24:55,929
Speaker 1: chore it's it's the job that we're doing but the

459
00:24:55,990 --> 00:25:00,500
Speaker 1: whole creation is actually doing it with us in harmony

460
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,860
Speaker 1: yeah yeah versus after the fall we've got all this

461
00:25:03,940 --> 00:25:08,340
Speaker 1: toil and struggle and difficulty and so now inevitably we're

462
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,580
Speaker 1: working against creation in a lot of ways like the

463
00:25:11,619 --> 00:25:14,169
Speaker 1: things are working against us and It just strikes me

464
00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:17,310
Speaker 1: when you're talking about these challenges that we face in

465
00:25:17,350 --> 00:25:20,129
Speaker 1: the day, part of it is that we're working against creation.

466
00:25:21,369 --> 00:25:23,690
Speaker 1: That's not to say that we're going in the wrong direction.

467
00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:25,709
Speaker 1: It's just to say that we live in a fallen world,

468
00:25:26,090 --> 00:25:28,669
Speaker 1: and now the world doesn't respond to us in the

469
00:25:28,730 --> 00:25:30,910
Speaker 1: way that it used to respond pre-fall.

470
00:25:31,260 --> 00:25:32,100
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

471
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,179
Speaker 1: And so we're trying to figure out how do we

472
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,740
Speaker 1: repattern ourselves so that we're aligned with what God wants

473
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,100
Speaker 1: us to do with the Holy Spirit, that we're sort

474
00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:48,250
Speaker 1: of participating fittingly yeah we're co-laborers yeah.

475
00:25:48,070 --> 00:25:51,230
Speaker 3: Yeah i mean on on that point i've been i'd

476
00:25:51,270 --> 00:25:54,530
Speaker 3: be curious you know with your your phd like i

477
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,460
Speaker 3: you know i went to reform theological seminary i come

478
00:25:57,540 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 3: out of you know that uh a less uh studious

479
00:26:01,940 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 3: version right um but one of the things that i've

480
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,770
Speaker 3: been thinking about is in some ways what we have

481
00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:12,990
Speaker 3: now is better than the garden and here's what i

482
00:26:13,030 --> 00:26:17,010
Speaker 3: mean In the garden, we have we're with God, right?

483
00:26:17,050 --> 00:26:19,050
Speaker 3: Kind of side by side, that image of like we're

484
00:26:19,070 --> 00:26:20,770
Speaker 3: walking in the cool of the garden, right?

485
00:26:20,910 --> 00:26:21,130
Speaker 2: Yep.

486
00:26:21,690 --> 00:26:24,460
Speaker 3: And then we have post-fall, you might describe it as

487
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 3: like man flees, God pursues in love, right? Like there's

488
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,100
Speaker 3: this tension. And then we get God with us again

489
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,340
Speaker 3: in Jesus, right? Emmanuel, right?

490
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:36,219
Speaker 2: Yeah.

491
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,730
Speaker 3: And then Jesus in John 14, he's like, y'all, I'm leaving.

492
00:26:41,050 --> 00:26:43,959
Speaker 3: And something better is about to happen. I'm sending you

493
00:26:44,020 --> 00:26:47,780
Speaker 3: the spirit, right? And he says, we'll dwell with you

494
00:26:47,820 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 3: forever and we'll be in you, right? Gives us that

495
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,859
Speaker 3: really comforting location, right? Because if the spirit's in us,

496
00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,940
Speaker 3: then he's always close enough to help, right? And that

497
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,129
Speaker 3: in us feels to me like, oh my gosh, we

498
00:27:05,150 --> 00:27:09,430
Speaker 3: were either with or in, you know, being chased by,

499
00:27:09,950 --> 00:27:13,949
Speaker 3: but now we have in right that idea of union

500
00:27:14,530 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 3: is ours so even if the world is still a

501
00:27:17,670 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 3: hard place to till right we are in a new

502
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 3: and dynamic way um connected into the life of the

503
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 3: trinity right like and and i think where it gets

504
00:27:30,270 --> 00:27:33,210
Speaker 3: really complicated is if i try to move from my

505
00:27:33,310 --> 00:27:37,130
Speaker 3: own energy right It's like I'm a hundred watt light

506
00:27:37,170 --> 00:27:41,010
Speaker 3: bulb versus I'm plugged into the nuclear reactor of the

507
00:27:41,070 --> 00:27:45,330
Speaker 3: Holy Spirit's life-giving energy. Do you know what I mean?

508
00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 3: And so that's an idea I've been thinking a lot

509
00:27:47,390 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 3: about that having the Holy Spirit indwelling us is just

510
00:27:53,940 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 3: such an interesting and dynamic shift into what we have

511
00:27:57,180 --> 00:27:57,660
Speaker 3: access to.

512
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 2: Well, and I think also it speaks to.

513
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: In the Old Testament, we have, I think it's Exodus 32, maybe,

514
00:28:06,340 --> 00:28:09,490
Speaker 1: the Spirit of God is given to Bezalel to create

515
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:13,790
Speaker 1: the apparatus of the tabernacle. And all of that is

516
00:28:13,810 --> 00:28:16,230
Speaker 1: done according to a pattern. And so a lot of

517
00:28:16,270 --> 00:28:18,429
Speaker 1: times when we think of creativity, what we think of

518
00:28:18,609 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: is what's coming out of my human imagination that I

519
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: want to create today that would be different and new.

520
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:30,300
Speaker 1: But in that context, his creativity, his skill, his artisanship, Right.

521
00:28:30,580 --> 00:28:33,450
Speaker 1: It's all used to conform to a pattern that God's

522
00:28:33,470 --> 00:28:34,030
Speaker 1: already given.

523
00:28:34,830 --> 00:28:36,370
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. Yeah.

524
00:28:36,450 --> 00:28:38,310
Speaker 1: And so when we fast forward in the New Testament,

525
00:28:38,330 --> 00:28:40,510
Speaker 1: we're looking at we're filled with the Holy Spirit.

526
00:28:40,650 --> 00:28:41,650
Speaker 2: And what are we to produce?

527
00:28:41,690 --> 00:28:44,210
Speaker 1: Well, we're to produce things in keeping with the pattern

528
00:28:44,270 --> 00:28:47,010
Speaker 1: that God desires us to establish. So you've got this

529
00:28:47,030 --> 00:28:49,380
Speaker 1: sort of patterning that the Spirit helps us sort of

530
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,890
Speaker 1: figure out. It empowers us to live according to that pattern.

531
00:28:54,390 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: And as we live according to that pattern, now we're

532
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: open to these new possibilities. We're open to these new

533
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: opportunities that God wants to give us. And I think

534
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: that really does, again, as I was reading through your book,

535
00:29:05,900 --> 00:29:08,140
Speaker 1: I'm like, that really does relate to what you're talking

536
00:29:08,180 --> 00:29:12,710
Speaker 1: about with this idea of, you know, designing your life,

537
00:29:13,250 --> 00:29:17,550
Speaker 1: doing the things that aren't life-giving differently.

538
00:29:17,570 --> 00:29:19,310
Speaker 3: Yes, yes. Right.

539
00:29:19,530 --> 00:29:21,860
Speaker 1: Like that slides right in there. And it's like, this

540
00:29:21,910 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: is how we do that. We're led by.

541
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:24,420
Speaker 2: The spirit into this.

542
00:29:24,460 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: We're constantly looking to provide, you know, peace, joy, you know,

543
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,110
Speaker 1: you know, all the different fruits of the spirit. And

544
00:29:31,110 --> 00:29:34,410
Speaker 1: that's how we approach these things differently.

545
00:29:34,410 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 2: That's how we do them differently.

546
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,890
Speaker 3: Yeah, 100 and i think that directly pertains like you

547
00:29:41,910 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 3: know you're not gonna get creativity in you know from

548
00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 3: god in a way that harms humanity right like that's

549
00:29:50,940 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 3: not you know no you're actually gonna get uh you're

550
00:29:54,340 --> 00:29:59,270
Speaker 3: gonna build things that create flourishing yeah right And not

551
00:29:59,310 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 3: just for you and your family, but also for your neighbors. Right.

552
00:30:02,910 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 3: Like that, that sense of the spirit will empower you

553
00:30:08,140 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 3: to do the pattern that is good for the people

554
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,260
Speaker 3: that God loves. Right. So I love that connection point.

555
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 3: That's really good insight.

556
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

557
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: It's, it's just such a fascinating, I think, like I said,

558
00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:24,630
Speaker 1: when I was reading through your, your book, I was like, wow, yeah,

559
00:30:24,710 --> 00:30:27,690
Speaker 1: this is all kind of coming together. And these practices

560
00:30:27,710 --> 00:30:30,350
Speaker 1: that you're referencing, I think they do really fit that

561
00:30:30,510 --> 00:30:33,050
Speaker 1: understanding of how the spirit works in our lives, the

562
00:30:33,090 --> 00:30:35,570
Speaker 1: patterns that you're creating. And then I think some of

563
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:40,250
Speaker 1: the other intentional practices really do underscore that. If I

564
00:30:40,290 --> 00:30:43,090
Speaker 1: can pivot just a little bit, because I'm interested also,

565
00:30:43,130 --> 00:30:46,770
Speaker 1: you mentioned cortisol earlier. And I think this is one

566
00:30:46,810 --> 00:30:49,690
Speaker 1: of those areas that's sort of beginning to emerge within

567
00:30:49,730 --> 00:30:53,790
Speaker 1: Christian circles. It's not like we didn't know it. that

568
00:30:54,430 --> 00:30:58,190
Speaker 1: the spirit, the mind, and the body are all connected, right?

569
00:30:58,750 --> 00:31:00,030
Speaker 3: Yes, 100%.

570
00:31:00,030 --> 00:31:02,709
Speaker 1: We don't think our brain sits in a vat or something.

571
00:31:02,730 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: So we've known they're all connected. But I think when

572
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,820
Speaker 1: I say I think it's emerging within Christian circles, I

573
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,620
Speaker 1: hear a lot more conversation about the.

574
00:31:10,620 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: Connection between these things.

575
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,620
Speaker 1: And so I know in the breathing chapter, at the

576
00:31:15,660 --> 00:31:19,300
Speaker 1: very least, what you had was this research that shows.

577
00:31:18,980 --> 00:31:24,610
Speaker 2: This technique, just breathing. Yep. does different things to our

578
00:31:24,770 --> 00:31:26,130
Speaker 2: hormone levels in the body.

579
00:31:26,250 --> 00:31:27,030
Speaker 3: Yep. Yeah.

580
00:31:27,070 --> 00:31:32,540
Speaker 2: Right. And so we're having these physical changes that are

581
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,060
Speaker 2: prompted by a spiritual practice.

582
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,900
Speaker 3: Yep. Yep. 100%. Yeah. Yeah.

583
00:31:40,460 --> 00:31:42,620
Speaker 2: So I mean, I'm not sure.

584
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,510
Speaker 1: I think it's just such an interesting, I guess I'm wondering,

585
00:31:46,810 --> 00:31:48,750
Speaker 1: you know, I definitely caught it with the breathing chapter.

586
00:31:48,770 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: I guess I'm wondering, How do you experience that across

587
00:31:53,580 --> 00:31:56,700
Speaker 1: these other practices, even if there aren't research studies or

588
00:31:56,740 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 1: anything like that? Like, how does that mind body connection,

589
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: an actual feeling of calm?

590
00:32:03,100 --> 00:32:04,100
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

591
00:32:04,180 --> 00:32:07,710
Speaker 2: Isn't just a feeling. It's a it's a whole set of.

592
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,090
Speaker 1: Things that are happening in your body that produce calm.

593
00:32:11,970 --> 00:32:16,430
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so to me. One, and I'm

594
00:32:16,510 --> 00:32:18,209
Speaker 3: sure you know way more about this than I do, but,

595
00:32:18,350 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 3: you know, I think historically we got into some sort

596
00:32:21,660 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 3: of platonic dualism in our thinking in Christianity, right? That

597
00:32:27,540 --> 00:32:31,390
Speaker 3: is not biblical, right? Like we're, we are a whole thing, right?

598
00:32:32,190 --> 00:32:34,430
Speaker 3: And so, like, one example of this would be, like,

599
00:32:34,630 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 3: growing up, I was taught that emotions were bad, right?

600
00:32:40,260 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 3: And just don't even use those as a reference point, right?

601
00:32:43,140 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 2: Yep, yep.

602
00:32:44,460 --> 00:32:48,700
Speaker 3: But, you know, as I've grown up and as I've learned, like, oh, no, no, actually,

603
00:32:48,780 --> 00:32:51,870
Speaker 3: emotions are things I'm meant to learn from. Like, God

604
00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:54,910
Speaker 3: is giving me this great sensor pattern, you know?

605
00:32:55,090 --> 00:32:55,209
Speaker 2: Yeah.

606
00:32:56,210 --> 00:32:59,430
Speaker 3: Like if I'm feeling really sad, well, if I get

607
00:32:59,510 --> 00:33:02,370
Speaker 3: still and get curious, then I realize, oh, there's something

608
00:33:02,390 --> 00:33:05,570
Speaker 3: that I need to mourn and let go of. And

609
00:33:05,610 --> 00:33:08,010
Speaker 3: I need to get curious about what that is because

610
00:33:08,090 --> 00:33:11,630
Speaker 3: God has called us to lament the heartbreak, right? I'm

611
00:33:11,670 --> 00:33:14,900
Speaker 3: not meant to repress that. I'm meant to understand it

612
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,980
Speaker 3: and give it to the Lord, right? And so for me,

613
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,180
Speaker 3: part of it is the physicality of our emotions, right?

614
00:33:22,660 --> 00:33:27,590
Speaker 3: And then also the physicality of our thoughts. So, for example,

615
00:33:28,190 --> 00:33:31,180
Speaker 3: if I get cut off in traffic and I believe

616
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,700
Speaker 3: that person is a selfish punk who's just trying to

617
00:33:35,780 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 3: get to some meeting faster, right? Then I'm going to

618
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 3: drive differently. I'm in turn going to be more aggressive

619
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,670
Speaker 3: and all those things. Whereas if my thought is, oh,

620
00:33:48,990 --> 00:33:51,890
Speaker 3: I actually don't know what's happening there. Maybe they're on

621
00:33:51,910 --> 00:33:52,890
Speaker 3: their way to the hospital.

622
00:33:52,910 --> 00:33:54,310
Speaker 1: Suddenly....

623
00:33:55,390 --> 00:34:00,750
Speaker 3: In my body, I feel different, right? And then I

624
00:34:00,850 --> 00:34:05,710
Speaker 3: drive different. Oh my gosh, right? So, I mean, take

625
00:34:05,750 --> 00:34:10,590
Speaker 3: that to our relationships, right? If I get home and

626
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,180
Speaker 3: I'm hoping my wife says something really kind and encouraging

627
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 3: and she's kind of short-tempered with me, right? And if

628
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 3: I instantly get on the defensive and I make up

629
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,940
Speaker 3: a story that that's because she's being mean, right? Next

630
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:29,589
Speaker 3: thing I know, My behavior, my physical setup, everything is awful, right?

631
00:34:30,170 --> 00:34:32,989
Speaker 3: Whereas if I go, oh, actually, I wonder how her

632
00:34:33,010 --> 00:34:36,540
Speaker 3: day was. Hey, honey, what actually happened for you? And

633
00:34:36,580 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 3: now she shares a tough day. And I go, oh,

634
00:34:40,700 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 3: that's why I'm this short-tempered, right? But to connect it

635
00:34:45,140 --> 00:34:49,299
Speaker 3: all the way to the spirituality piece, our actions, like

636
00:34:49,340 --> 00:34:53,540
Speaker 3: our sins, they don't exist in a vacuum, right? They're

637
00:34:53,620 --> 00:34:58,740
Speaker 3: driven by a physical body, right? And a whole being.

638
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 3: And so I really love when, you know, the theologian

639
00:35:01,260 --> 00:35:06,370
Speaker 3: John Stott, somebody asked him, what's the key to spiritual development?

640
00:35:06,930 --> 00:35:10,910
Speaker 3: And he said, a good night's sleep. You know, there's

641
00:35:10,950 --> 00:35:15,190
Speaker 3: something really true about that, that we have to take

642
00:35:15,230 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 3: ourselves as a whole person.

643
00:35:16,300 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 2: I mean, Paul talks about disciplining his body, right?

644
00:35:21,420 --> 00:35:25,980
Speaker 1: Not just, disciplining his mind or disciplining spirit, but disciplining

645
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: his body.

646
00:35:26,500 --> 00:35:27,940
Speaker 2: And so, yeah, it struck.

647
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: Me as I was reading through this, you know, cause I,

648
00:35:30,180 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: you know, give your example with your wife, you know,

649
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,989
Speaker 1: let's say she has a, you know, sort of a

650
00:35:34,030 --> 00:35:37,150
Speaker 1: short comment and you take it wrongly. You're not advocating

651
00:35:37,210 --> 00:35:40,469
Speaker 1: that you stand there and do four breaths in that moment. Right.

652
00:35:40,790 --> 00:35:45,330
Speaker 3: Which, you know, maybe sometimes, maybe sometimes, but.

653
00:35:45,290 --> 00:35:47,850
Speaker 2: I, I have found personally that I should probably just

654
00:35:47,910 --> 00:35:49,969
Speaker 2: move away. And if I need to do that, but yeah.

655
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,859
Speaker 1: I think what I, at least the tone I got

656
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: from your book is this is all preparatory. This is

657
00:35:55,620 --> 00:35:58,489
Speaker 1: stuff that you should be doing ongoing so that when

658
00:35:58,530 --> 00:36:02,930
Speaker 1: you hit that, that moment, your first response isn't anger

659
00:36:02,989 --> 00:36:07,230
Speaker 1: or frustration or whatever. It's, it is curiosity because you've,

660
00:36:07,820 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: you've sort of prepared yourself for the various challenges that

661
00:36:12,500 --> 00:36:15,500
Speaker 1: you're going to face and your response is just different.

662
00:36:16,370 --> 00:36:20,230
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, again, we can get into the neuroplasticity stuff, right?

663
00:36:20,290 --> 00:36:23,590
Speaker 3: And this idea that you're rewiring your brain, right? Or

664
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,300
Speaker 3: anything that elite athletes know, they envision what's going to happen.

665
00:36:29,180 --> 00:36:33,700
Speaker 3: And so if you have none of that training, right,

666
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 3: then often we're just in reaction mode. And like a

667
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,140
Speaker 3: great example, this is from the book, but part of

668
00:36:40,180 --> 00:36:45,100
Speaker 3: my son's challenge is he's very dysregulated at times, right? Yeah.

669
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 3: And we're driving home from a school event for my daughter.

670
00:36:50,739 --> 00:36:55,460
Speaker 3: And my son's very upset, very dysregulated. He can't control

671
00:36:55,500 --> 00:37:00,980
Speaker 3: his body. I'm driving down the highway and he kicks

672
00:37:01,060 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 3: the windshield so hard that it starts to spider crack,

673
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 3: you know, this loud popping.

674
00:37:07,180 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 2: Yeah.

675
00:37:08,780 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 3: And because I had at that point done so much

676
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 3: meditative work, And knew what anger felt like in my

677
00:37:16,739 --> 00:37:20,330
Speaker 3: body and, you know, all these things. I felt that

678
00:37:20,489 --> 00:37:25,270
Speaker 3: rising flush, you know, where just like that demand that

679
00:37:25,390 --> 00:37:29,250
Speaker 3: I must get control now. Right. I think if we're honest,

680
00:37:29,350 --> 00:37:34,100
Speaker 3: a lot of us know that feeling. Yeah. Right. And

681
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 3: I realized that was happening. And in the car instead,

682
00:37:37,780 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 3: I said, nope, we're going to bring up some of

683
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,290
Speaker 3: the stillness we cultivated this morning. And I got very

684
00:37:43,350 --> 00:37:47,090
Speaker 3: calm and I got very still. And then he responded

685
00:37:47,170 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 3: to my calmness and we got home safely.

686
00:37:50,020 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

687
00:37:51,140 --> 00:37:54,020
Speaker 3: And then I helped get him to his room safely, right?

688
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:59,380
Speaker 3: Where he could kind of not be as in sensory overload, right? Right.

689
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,219
Speaker 2: He can have a space where he can kind of

690
00:38:01,260 --> 00:38:02,090
Speaker 2: calm himself down.

691
00:38:02,090 --> 00:38:05,529
Speaker 3: 100%. And then I came back to the kitchen where

692
00:38:05,550 --> 00:38:09,569
Speaker 3: he couldn't see me, right? And I let myself feel

693
00:38:09,610 --> 00:38:12,529
Speaker 3: that anger fully. I didn't try to pretend that that

694
00:38:12,570 --> 00:38:15,650
Speaker 3: wasn't there. Because I find that if you just try

695
00:38:15,670 --> 00:38:17,590
Speaker 3: to ignore it, then it will recycle itself.

696
00:38:18,130 --> 00:38:20,290
Speaker 2: You can't bury it.

697
00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:23,770
Speaker 3: No, I was like, oh my gosh, he cracked the

698
00:38:23,850 --> 00:38:26,989
Speaker 3: window on the highway? Are you kidding me? Right?

699
00:38:27,550 --> 00:38:27,740
Speaker 2: Right.

700
00:38:29,620 --> 00:38:32,020
Speaker 3: And I think sometimes if you get into some of

701
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:37,890
Speaker 3: the contemplative faith circles, they often act like holier-than-thou introverts

702
00:38:37,930 --> 00:38:41,969
Speaker 3: who are floating above the ground and don't feel feelings anymore. Right, right.

703
00:38:42,370 --> 00:38:45,009
Speaker 3: And that is not at all what I'm saying, right?

704
00:38:45,350 --> 00:38:45,830
Speaker 2: Yeah.

705
00:38:45,950 --> 00:38:49,060
Speaker 3: But I felt it fully and I processed it. And

706
00:38:49,100 --> 00:38:51,540
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, yeah, that sucks. And now I'm

707
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,739
Speaker 3: going to have to get that windshield replaced. Right. You know,

708
00:38:54,900 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 3: not how I wanted to spend $ 400. But I did

709
00:39:01,580 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 3: that in a way that kept my son safe and okay.

710
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,030
Speaker 3: And not me acting in my anger in a sinful

711
00:39:08,070 --> 00:39:09,050
Speaker 3: way towards my son.

712
00:39:09,670 --> 00:39:09,950
Speaker 2: Yeah.

713
00:39:11,010 --> 00:39:13,830
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I mean, I will say I, so yeah,

714
00:39:15,330 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: I don't do a lot of meditative practices. After you're

715
00:39:17,460 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: reading your book, I'm thinking about it. Like maybe I

716
00:39:19,460 --> 00:39:21,299
Speaker 1: should get into some of these. I would say the

717
00:39:21,420 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: one that I do most closely is the journaling aspect.

718
00:39:25,489 --> 00:39:28,470
Speaker 2: I write an awful lot. And there was a time

719
00:39:28,530 --> 00:39:29,970
Speaker 2: where I was coming out of one career.

720
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,060
Speaker 1: And moving into the next. And I really felt angry

721
00:39:33,340 --> 00:39:36,780
Speaker 1: leaving my previous job. And so I started a blog.

722
00:39:37,739 --> 00:39:40,700
Speaker 1: And before I published anything on the blog, I'd run

723
00:39:40,739 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: it past my wife. And she'd go, nope, too angry.

724
00:39:44,860 --> 00:39:47,100
Speaker 1: And I mean, it was like it was like nope,

725
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: too angry for like six months until she finally approved

726
00:39:50,739 --> 00:39:52,100
Speaker 1: a blog post to go out, you know.

727
00:39:52,860 --> 00:39:53,870
Speaker 2: So I just had this.

728
00:39:53,739 --> 00:39:57,730
Speaker 1: Empty blog because she's just like, you know, you're still like.

729
00:39:58,150 --> 00:39:59,950
Speaker 1: But to your point, like I think I buried a

730
00:39:59,969 --> 00:40:02,390
Speaker 1: lot of that because, you know, in a professional setting,

731
00:40:02,430 --> 00:40:05,710
Speaker 1: you you can't just explode like that's not the.

732
00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:06,330
Speaker 2: Right way to go.

733
00:40:06,350 --> 00:40:07,490
Speaker 3: Unless you're the CEO.

734
00:40:08,250 --> 00:40:09,750
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Then you do whatever you want.

735
00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:14,340
Speaker 1: But I think a lot of people probably thought I

736
00:40:14,380 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 1: was working that out in the gym. I do a

737
00:40:16,820 --> 00:40:18,819
Speaker 1: lot of, you know, lifting and working out, but I

738
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:20,980
Speaker 1: really don't enjoy lifting angry.

739
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 2: It's tiring. It's more tiring than you think it is.

740
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,430
Speaker 3: Oh man, you're strumming with the anger. Yeah.

741
00:40:26,950 --> 00:40:29,410
Speaker 2: Right. So the journaling was where I sort of released that.

742
00:40:29,430 --> 00:40:30,170
Speaker 2: And I've kept that up.

743
00:40:31,469 --> 00:40:33,610
Speaker 1: It's actually really, I find it to be really helpful

744
00:40:33,850 --> 00:40:36,509
Speaker 1: and refreshing for me to just sort of work some

745
00:40:36,550 --> 00:40:38,330
Speaker 1: things out. And, you know, you kind of make sure

746
00:40:38,350 --> 00:40:40,890
Speaker 1: the internet's off and you don't write emails and, you know,

747
00:40:41,010 --> 00:40:45,090
Speaker 1: where you can click send and it gets out and

748
00:40:45,130 --> 00:40:45,570
Speaker 1: it gets.

749
00:40:45,469 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: Done and then you can move on with it.

750
00:40:48,969 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: But I think these practices you're hitting on as sort

751
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:54,940
Speaker 1: of like you're describing, I think that's a great example.

752
00:40:55,620 --> 00:40:59,180
Speaker 1: the preparatory nature of them so that you can understand

753
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:04,280
Speaker 1: what's happening to you and decide in the moment, Hey,

754
00:41:04,340 --> 00:41:07,150
Speaker 1: I need something else to go on here and I

755
00:41:07,170 --> 00:41:09,850
Speaker 1: won't bury that forever. But right now this is not

756
00:41:09,890 --> 00:41:11,989
Speaker 1: the right emotion to feel. This is not actually going

757
00:41:12,010 --> 00:41:16,410
Speaker 1: to help the situation. Um, you know, and how do

758
00:41:16,430 --> 00:41:18,230
Speaker 1: you think about that illusion of control?

759
00:41:18,910 --> 00:41:20,930
Speaker 2: Right. Um, you know.

760
00:41:20,950 --> 00:41:22,710
Speaker 1: I mean, you said you're an Enneagram eight, I'm an

761
00:41:22,770 --> 00:41:26,590
Speaker 1: Enneagram eight. Um, control is just sort of the normal,

762
00:41:26,650 --> 00:41:31,940
Speaker 1: that's my default. Like I should control this. Right. So yeah, absolutely. I.

763
00:41:32,980 --> 00:41:36,980
Speaker 3: I think about this all the time and, and where

764
00:41:37,060 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 3: I've gotten to is I think, I know this is

765
00:41:39,460 --> 00:41:41,760
Speaker 3: true for me and I think it's true for most people.

766
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:51,730
Speaker 3: We would rather have control than faith. Like, yeah. Right. Like, um, but,

767
00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:56,250
Speaker 3: But what that does, like to really pursue control makes

768
00:41:56,290 --> 00:41:59,810
Speaker 3: your life smaller and smaller and smaller. Right.

769
00:41:59,830 --> 00:42:00,830
Speaker 2: Yeah.

770
00:42:01,430 --> 00:42:05,280
Speaker 3: Because there's you realize there's oh, my gosh, there's actually

771
00:42:05,340 --> 00:42:07,860
Speaker 3: so much I can't control. So if I'm going to

772
00:42:07,900 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 3: go down that path, I'm going to make my life

773
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 3: really small. Right. That includes my interactions with people, work, whatever. Right. Yeah.

774
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,060
Speaker 3: And so what I've found is the key belief to

775
00:42:20,219 --> 00:42:24,900
Speaker 3: unwind that is, do I actually think I'm safe and

776
00:42:24,940 --> 00:42:27,860
Speaker 3: in the hands of my loving God? Right?

777
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:28,439
Speaker 2: That's good.

778
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 3: If that's true, right? And I don't mean that in

779
00:42:32,430 --> 00:42:36,450
Speaker 3: a doing sense. I mean that in a being sense first. Yeah. Right?

780
00:42:37,010 --> 00:42:40,370
Speaker 3: Then I can move outward with as much hope and

781
00:42:40,430 --> 00:42:45,030
Speaker 3: creativity and expansion as knowing that God's going to literally

782
00:42:45,170 --> 00:42:49,169
Speaker 3: build the best path forward. Like if all things work for,

783
00:42:49,190 --> 00:42:53,469
Speaker 3: you know, my good and his glory, then I can

784
00:42:53,550 --> 00:42:57,989
Speaker 3: trust that he's actually crafting what some would consider like

785
00:42:58,010 --> 00:43:02,100
Speaker 3: a custom learning scenario for me to grow in.

786
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:03,939
Speaker 2: Hope and trust, you know?

787
00:43:05,660 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 3: And, and then it's, it's, you know, the self-awareness practice

788
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:14,410
Speaker 3: becomes like, how in tune am I am, am I

789
00:43:14,489 --> 00:43:14,930
Speaker 3: to that?

790
00:43:15,590 --> 00:43:15,810
Speaker 2: Right.

791
00:43:15,910 --> 00:43:18,509
Speaker 3: And I really think about this, like, like I'm a

792
00:43:18,530 --> 00:43:19,210
Speaker 3: guitar player.

793
00:43:19,390 --> 00:43:19,629
Speaker 2: Right.

794
00:43:20,630 --> 00:43:22,489
Speaker 3: And when you first pick up a guitar, you always

795
00:43:22,550 --> 00:43:25,850
Speaker 3: retune it. Right. But depending on a bunch of different factors,

796
00:43:25,950 --> 00:43:28,770
Speaker 3: it can go out of tune really fast. Right. Um,

797
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,219
Speaker 3: And if you don't take enough time to go, wait

798
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:33,760
Speaker 3: a minute, let's tune it back.

799
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:34,439
Speaker 2: Right.

800
00:43:35,020 --> 00:43:37,550
Speaker 3: You can still be quote playing a song, but man,

801
00:43:37,610 --> 00:43:39,730
Speaker 3: it sounds pretty bad. Right.

802
00:43:40,130 --> 00:43:40,690
Speaker 2: Yeah.

803
00:43:41,170 --> 00:43:44,910
Speaker 3: And so like these practices to me are a way to,

804
00:43:45,070 --> 00:43:48,070
Speaker 3: to tune our hearts to the Lord.

805
00:43:48,090 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. That's a great analogy. I didn't know that about guitars.

806
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,819
Speaker 1: I have no musical ability whatsoever, but I trust you.

807
00:43:58,090 --> 00:44:00,550
Speaker 3: I live in Nashville. It's part of living here. You

808
00:44:00,660 --> 00:44:01,590
Speaker 3: have to play.

809
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,100
Speaker 2: At least one instrument. But I like that idea.

810
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 1: Let's tune it back in because otherwise you're going to

811
00:44:07,900 --> 00:44:09,959
Speaker 1: be doing the right practices in the wrong way.

812
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,740
Speaker 2: And it's just not going to sound quite right. And so, yeah,

813
00:44:14,380 --> 00:44:14,700
Speaker 2: that's helpful.

814
00:44:14,739 --> 00:44:17,950
Speaker 3: And I would also say like, I mean, like there's

815
00:44:18,010 --> 00:44:20,790
Speaker 3: other key indicators, right? You get this sense from, from,

816
00:44:21,340 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 3: I think some old Testament prophetic passages as well as

817
00:44:23,820 --> 00:44:26,770
Speaker 3: the new Testament, like that streams of living water are

818
00:44:26,830 --> 00:44:30,989
Speaker 3: meant to be flowing from us. Right. And I think

819
00:44:31,030 --> 00:44:34,589
Speaker 3: that living phrase is so key. They should feel and

820
00:44:34,690 --> 00:44:38,969
Speaker 3: be life-giving both for you and for those around others.

821
00:44:39,489 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 2: Yeah.

822
00:44:39,780 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 3: Right. I mean, like you, that, that image, I think

823
00:44:43,300 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 3: this is an Ezekiel where like the, the water's moving

824
00:44:46,860 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 3: out from the temple and every whatever, 500 yards, roughly,

825
00:44:51,610 --> 00:44:56,310
Speaker 3: It's getting deeper and deeper and deeper, right? And it's life-giving.

826
00:44:56,530 --> 00:44:59,910
Speaker 3: Like it becomes fresh water. People are fishing and the

827
00:45:00,270 --> 00:45:02,609
Speaker 3: trees on the banks are giving fruit and the leaves

828
00:45:02,650 --> 00:45:04,820
Speaker 3: are good for healing, right? You get this like, oh

829
00:45:05,090 --> 00:45:09,100
Speaker 3: my gosh. And so I think a lot of Christians

830
00:45:09,180 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 3: I know are not at all living in a way

831
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 3: that is leading to more and more of that, right?

832
00:45:18,260 --> 00:45:22,859
Speaker 3: They're living in a way that's much more self-reliant. self-protection, self-promotion,

833
00:45:23,260 --> 00:45:26,779
Speaker 3: and doesn't look too different than their neighbors.

834
00:45:28,460 --> 00:45:29,979
Speaker 1: I think that kind of leads me, because we're going

835
00:45:30,060 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: to close the end of the episode here, but that

836
00:45:32,739 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 1: kind of leads me into the question I usually ask

837
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,370
Speaker 1: for the end. What does the church need to do

838
00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:40,950
Speaker 1: in your mind to be and make disciples more faithfully?

839
00:45:40,969 --> 00:45:44,509
Speaker 2: And I think.

840
00:45:43,430 --> 00:45:46,730
Speaker 1: That your last comment there really points to something that

841
00:45:46,770 --> 00:45:50,290
Speaker 1: maybe we're missing the boat on. You know, I'm not

842
00:45:50,350 --> 00:45:52,549
Speaker 1: sure whether that'd be your answer, but what would you say?

843
00:45:52,570 --> 00:45:55,189
Speaker 1: I mean, what does the church really need to do

844
00:45:55,270 --> 00:45:59,390
Speaker 1: today to be and make more faithful disciples for Jesus Christ?

845
00:46:00,650 --> 00:46:03,489
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think we need to have a revolution

846
00:46:03,530 --> 00:46:07,529
Speaker 3: in discipleship, right? And the way I would describe this is,

847
00:46:08,170 --> 00:46:10,259
Speaker 3: you know, in my background and a lot of the

848
00:46:10,620 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 3: backgrounds of my peers, we grew up learning that the

849
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,930
Speaker 3: journey of faith is knowledge of God. And that the

850
00:46:17,989 --> 00:46:20,730
Speaker 3: knowledge of self just a tiny little bit so that,

851
00:46:20,750 --> 00:46:23,610
Speaker 3: you know, you need Jesus, right? Like be aware of

852
00:46:23,650 --> 00:46:27,430
Speaker 3: your sin. But after that, the whole rest of the

853
00:46:27,489 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 3: journey is knowledge of God. Right. And I think we

854
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,460
Speaker 3: end up in this over intellectualized brain on a stick,

855
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 3: you know, all that kind of stuff. And, you know,

856
00:46:37,340 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 3: going back, I mean, Augustine, even Calvin, several others, you know,

857
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,830
Speaker 3: go to the Greek Orthodox pathway. There's tons of this,

858
00:46:44,370 --> 00:46:47,009
Speaker 3: but it was no, no, no. The, the, The journey

859
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:52,500
Speaker 3: of faith is a combined knowledge of God, knowledge of self, right?

860
00:46:53,420 --> 00:46:57,860
Speaker 3: And so to your question, I think we need discipleship

861
00:46:57,900 --> 00:47:01,549
Speaker 3: that helps people to deeply connect with self so that

862
00:47:01,570 --> 00:47:04,410
Speaker 3: they bring their whole self before the throne room of

863
00:47:04,469 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 3: grace and establish their self there and move from that place. right?

864
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 3: To put it another way, it's crazy to me that

865
00:47:13,980 --> 00:47:18,970
Speaker 3: the secular world has far more guidance, right? On so

866
00:47:19,010 --> 00:47:21,830
Speaker 3: much of this, when we say we know who made us,

867
00:47:22,570 --> 00:47:24,710
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? Like Christians who say they

868
00:47:24,750 --> 00:47:31,029
Speaker 3: know the maker, we should be the experts on all things, physical, emotional, spiritual, like,

869
00:47:31,050 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 3: because we say we know the guy who did it all,

870
00:47:33,940 --> 00:47:37,100
Speaker 3: you know? So that would be my answer is like,

871
00:47:37,690 --> 00:47:43,450
Speaker 3: I think we need self-awareness discipleship that helps somebody have

872
00:47:43,510 --> 00:47:45,980
Speaker 3: knowledge of God and knowledge of self that creates a

873
00:47:46,460 --> 00:47:47,100
Speaker 3: whole journey.

874
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:48,780
Speaker 2: That's great.

875
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,500
Speaker 1: I think it resonates with something that I think has

876
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,900
Speaker 1: been reinforced to me over my many years now of

877
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: studying the Bible, which is there's a totalizing effect of

878
00:48:00,300 --> 00:48:00,740
Speaker 1: the Bible.

879
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:01,879
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

880
00:48:02,890 --> 00:48:06,009
Speaker 1: Like, you know, God doesn't ask us for 99.9% of

881
00:48:06,090 --> 00:48:09,709
Speaker 1: our lives and we can keep that 0.1% to ourselves, right?

882
00:48:09,750 --> 00:48:14,090
Speaker 1: There's no way to really prioritize him if we intend

883
00:48:14,130 --> 00:48:16,410
Speaker 1: to get to anything else on our list. Like, that's

884
00:48:16,430 --> 00:48:18,110
Speaker 1: just the wrong way to think about it because he

885
00:48:18,150 --> 00:48:19,810
Speaker 1: wants all we are and have.

886
00:48:20,530 --> 00:48:22,860
Speaker 2: And so as we think of it that way, now

887
00:48:22,950 --> 00:48:25,060
Speaker 2: what we are is we're immersed in him.

888
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: And that has to influence us.

889
00:48:29,250 --> 00:48:30,469
Speaker 2: Everything else about it.

890
00:48:30,770 --> 00:48:33,609
Speaker 1: We not only know him, we're not only immersed in him,

891
00:48:33,630 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 1: we know ourselves in relation to him. We know ourselves

892
00:48:37,340 --> 00:48:42,460
Speaker 1: in relation to others. It's the leavening effect.

893
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

894
00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 2: And you mentioned Augustine.

895
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,459
Speaker 1: He talks about, you know, all of our other love

896
00:48:48,500 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: should be caught up in the current of our love

897
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:54,950
Speaker 1: for God. I love that picture. It's like, you know,

898
00:48:54,989 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 1: little floaties out there just going along with the current.

899
00:48:57,410 --> 00:49:01,150
Speaker 1: And it's like, that's what it is. So I think

900
00:49:01,190 --> 00:49:04,390
Speaker 1: that answer is fantastic. It just feels like we have

901
00:49:04,430 --> 00:49:08,190
Speaker 1: maybe gotten a little too compartmentalized. We've kept certain areas

902
00:49:08,250 --> 00:49:10,890
Speaker 1: away from God and haven't explored those.

903
00:49:10,670 --> 00:49:11,790
Speaker 2: To a sufficient extent.

904
00:49:12,350 --> 00:49:14,509
Speaker 1: And we really need to get back to, I think

905
00:49:14,550 --> 00:49:16,089
Speaker 1: a lot of the practices you talk about in your

906
00:49:16,130 --> 00:49:19,410
Speaker 1: book would be helpful to people to really get them

907
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 1: moving in this direction of how do I understand myself

908
00:49:24,420 --> 00:49:26,509
Speaker 1: how do I understand myself in relation to God how

909
00:49:26,530 --> 00:49:28,009
Speaker 1: do I understand myself in relation to.

910
00:49:28,010 --> 00:49:32,140
Speaker 3: Others yeah I think At the end of the day,

911
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,399
Speaker 3: I believe that Christians are meant to be the most

912
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:39,980
Speaker 3: joyful people in all contexts because we're flowing in that love.

913
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,620
Speaker 3: And it doesn't mean that things are less hard, right?

914
00:49:42,660 --> 00:49:47,700
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to minimize or Pollyanna-ish. But when you

915
00:49:47,780 --> 00:49:51,620
Speaker 3: move like that and you move in alignment with self,

916
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,420
Speaker 3: with God, and with others, life can't help but get

917
00:49:55,460 --> 00:49:58,830
Speaker 3: more joyful. Like, people are like, oh, man, being around

918
00:49:58,870 --> 00:50:02,250
Speaker 3: you is life-giving. Oh, you know, like, in the same

919
00:50:02,270 --> 00:50:05,770
Speaker 3: way that, you know, if we're supposed to be little Christs, right? Like,

920
00:50:05,830 --> 00:50:09,500
Speaker 3: we're meant to be followers. Like, hurting people couldn't wait

921
00:50:09,580 --> 00:50:14,580
Speaker 3: to get around Jesus, right? Like, a great question to

922
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 3: ask is, if your discipleship is working, do hurting people

923
00:50:17,460 --> 00:50:20,510
Speaker 3: want to be around you or not? If the answer

924
00:50:20,550 --> 00:50:22,609
Speaker 3: is no, maybe it's time to do a little more

925
00:50:22,969 --> 00:50:23,630
Speaker 3: of this work. Hang on.

926
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 1: Well, Will, this has been a great conversation, man. I

927
00:50:29,380 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: really appreciate you being on. And No Elevator to Everest,

928
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: I would really recommend it for folks. We'll put the

929
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,259
Speaker 1: link in the show description. But fantastic book, outlined some

930
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,979
Speaker 1: really great practices that I think everybody would benefit from.

931
00:50:43,580 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: And that's not to say that I think it's a

932
00:50:44,940 --> 00:50:49,580
Speaker 1: self-help book. I think this is sort of a prophetic call.

933
00:50:49,900 --> 00:50:51,839
Speaker 2: Hey, once you figure these things out.

934
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,210
Speaker 1: You're going to live more joyfully for Jesus. And so

935
00:50:55,230 --> 00:50:57,170
Speaker 1: the fact that you get to live more joyfully is

936
00:50:57,210 --> 00:50:58,990
Speaker 1: sort of a, you know, an ancillary.

937
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:59,830
Speaker 3: It's a byproduct.

938
00:51:00,050 --> 00:51:01,530
Speaker 2: That's right. That's right.

939
00:51:02,190 --> 00:51:05,580
Speaker 1: And so not totally not a self-help book, but I

940
00:51:05,860 --> 00:51:08,060
Speaker 1: really do think this is sort of a nice prophetic

941
00:51:08,100 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: call to us as Christians. Get to know yourself in

942
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,850
Speaker 1: service of the Lord. And so very much appreciated it.

943
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,770
Speaker 2: Appreciate the conversation. And thank you so much. No elevator

944
00:51:19,850 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 2: ever is. Does a corner to corner have a website

945
00:51:22,460 --> 00:51:23,980
Speaker 2: that folks could, uh, go to?

946
00:51:23,980 --> 00:51:24,660
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

947
00:51:25,140 --> 00:51:26,610
Speaker 2: Let's make sure we get that.

948
00:51:27,110 --> 00:51:30,950
Speaker 3: Um, and then it's corner to corner on Instagram and

949
00:51:31,150 --> 00:51:33,930
Speaker 3: on Instagram, it's will joy a cuff. If you want

950
00:51:33,950 --> 00:51:37,310
Speaker 3: to follow along along there, I do a lot of

951
00:51:37,350 --> 00:51:40,370
Speaker 3: like little spiritual guide kind of updates. Nice.

952
00:51:40,750 --> 00:51:42,990
Speaker 2: Very cool. Uh, we'll get those in the show notes

953
00:51:43,050 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 2: as well, but I just encourage you to check out

954
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 2: will his book and, uh, everything else he's got going

955
00:51:48,260 --> 00:51:51,340
Speaker 2: on corner to corner and, um, Yeah, we'll call it

956
00:51:51,380 --> 00:51:53,530
Speaker 2: a day. Will, again, thanks for being here. This is great.

957
00:51:53,890 --> 00:51:55,150
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me, James.

958
00:51:55,790 --> 00:51:56,890
Speaker 2: All right, everybody, take care.

959
00:51:57,010 --> 00:51:58,970
Speaker 1: And we'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian.

960
00:51:59,130 --> 00:52:00,609
Speaker 1: Just want to take a second to thank the team

961
00:52:00,690 --> 00:52:03,069
Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the

962
00:52:03,110 --> 00:52:06,710
Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find

963
00:52:06,790 --> 00:52:10,150
Speaker 1: dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got

964
00:52:10,190 --> 00:52:13,009
Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.