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Speaker 1: I'm Josh Hammer, and this is the Josh Shammer Show.

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Speaker 1: Wishing my fellow Jews a continued, very happy Passover, Wishing

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Speaker 1: all of our Christian friends well a blessed good Friday

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Speaker 1: and a blessed Easter Sunday this Sunday as well. This

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Speaker 1: in this most spiritual times of the calendar for both

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Speaker 1: of the two biblical religions, for Judaism and Christianity. This

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Speaker 1: is not an every year occurrence where the holidays of

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Speaker 1: Passover and Easter coincide. I believe it happened actually last

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Speaker 1: year as well, but it is not necessarily a year in,

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Speaker 1: year out development, and it's very serendipitous, it seems to

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Speaker 1: me when it does, I personally like it. When passed

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Speaker 1: Over in Easter or I read same thing, I personally

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Speaker 1: like it. For that matter, when Christmas and Honkah are

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Speaker 1: at the exact same time as well, which just happened

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Speaker 1: to Hankah's ago. But I think that think was the

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Speaker 1: first night of Hanukah two years ago was actually literally

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Speaker 1: on Christmas Eve for Christmas Day. I forgot the exact one.

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Speaker 1: But I love it because I have been passionate about

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Speaker 1: Jewish Christian relations.

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Speaker 2: For literally my entire life.

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Speaker 1: My best friend from childhood came from a religious Christian family.

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Speaker 1: At the time, I was raised in a fairly secular,

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Speaker 1: non observant Jewish setting, and I looked at their household

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Speaker 1: was a strong household of faith, and I had deep respects.

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Speaker 1: I had deep respects even as a very young boy

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Speaker 1: at that time. And many of my best friends at

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Speaker 1: every stage of my life, law school, professional life, you

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Speaker 1: name and have been religious about Christians there and I

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Speaker 1: really do just love it so again, truly earnestly. Happy Passover, blessed,

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Speaker 1: Good Friday blessed, and happy Easter as well. Some of

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Speaker 1: the core themes, by the way, are quite similar among

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Speaker 1: these two holidays. There is a very similar theme of

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Speaker 1: Passover in Easter of redemption. So redemption in the story Passover,

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Speaker 1: pretty so explanatory, is the story of the exodus of

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Speaker 1: the Party of the Red Sea and the redemption of

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Speaker 1: this enslaved nation from the talons of Pharaoh into eventually

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Speaker 1: into freedom, but for now just crossing the Red Sea.

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Speaker 1: And then of course for Easter, the the the entire

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Speaker 1: story of the of the of the Resurrection Jesus dying

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Speaker 1: on the Cross is essentially one grand tale when it

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Speaker 1: when when it comes to redemption, and redemption is a

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Speaker 1: complex topic, but closely entailed with the concept of redemption,

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Speaker 1: I would argue at least is the very similar concept

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Speaker 1: of repentance. And from a Jewish respective, at least this

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Speaker 1: month is on the Hebrew calendar, the month of Nissans,

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Speaker 1: the first month of the year year numerically is because

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Speaker 1: it's the first month after or coinciding with the exodus,

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Speaker 1: and we say, or the stages, I should say say

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Speaker 1: that is a time for a lot of introspects and

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Speaker 1: a time for a lot of repentance. And certainly from

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Speaker 1: a Christian respective, I think the story of the resurrection

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Speaker 1: of Jesus dying on the cross and being resurrected there,

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 2: Certainly has has been in all time historical.

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Speaker 1: Story that has caused countless Christians over the thousands of

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Speaker 1: years of over the millennia to seek to repent for

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Speaker 1: for the for their own sins.

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Speaker 2: There and I just a quick word on.

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Speaker 1: That before we get to to today's forthcoming guest and

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Speaker 1: some some of the news of the day. There, repentance

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Speaker 1: is is such a crucial topic. It is one of

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Speaker 1: the most important topics in all of Biblical religion, and

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Speaker 1: I want to address one increasingly misunderstood. I think aspects

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Speaker 1: of repentance. There are a lot of folks jew and

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Speaker 1: Christian are like who look at themselves sometimes and look

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Speaker 1: in the mirror and say, oh, my God, I have grievously,

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Speaker 1: grievously sent I have done terrible things when it comes

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Speaker 1: to this, or when it comes to that. I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna list examples there. You can make up your own examples,

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Speaker 1: but let's let's assume that that that there are very

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Speaker 1: bad examples, and of course there are there. There are

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Speaker 1: some sins that that that are really really bad. And

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Speaker 1: you Christianity, and there are some sins that are really

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Speaker 1: really bad in both religions, because both religions of course

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Speaker 1: share the biblical inheritance. And it is all too common

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Speaker 1: where a lot of folks look at that experience that

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Speaker 1: and they say that I can never come back, that

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Speaker 1: I am so low, I have reached such a terrible low.

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Speaker 1: Look at me, God, I have failed before you, I

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Speaker 1: have failed. There is nothing redemptive about me, there can

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Speaker 1: be no bettering of me. I am a puny little midget,

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Speaker 1: a moral midget, I am not worthy of your benevolence.

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Speaker 1: I am not worthy of your forgiving, of your compassion,

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Speaker 1: of any of this. And this is related to another

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Speaker 1: story actually from the Book of Exodus, at least in

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Speaker 1: my view of the tale, and that would be the

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Speaker 1: story of the Golden Calf. So in the excess narrative,

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Speaker 1: this way celebrate during Passover is the liberation of the

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Speaker 1: Jewish and Egyptian bondage. They cross the Red Sea and

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Speaker 1: they get into get into the across the Red Seilei's

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Speaker 1: is not quite in the Holy Lands yet, and eventually

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Speaker 1: they settle at the base of Mount Sinai, and there's

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Speaker 1: a revelation with Moses at the top of Mount Sinai.

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Speaker 1: And because Moses takes forty days and forty knights at

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Speaker 1: the top of Mount Sinai, the Israelites at the bottom

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Speaker 1: lost faith that he would return, and they erect the

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Speaker 1: quintessential idol, which is this Golden Calf. And Moses is

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Speaker 1: so distraught when he sees this that he shatters the

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Speaker 1: tablets there.

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Speaker 2: Well, what does God do?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 1: God initially wants to smite the Israeli nation. Moses intercedes

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Speaker 1: to plead for forgiveness and God essentially relents. And the

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Speaker 1: moral of the story is that this sin, this building

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Speaker 1: of this iconic idol, this golden calf, right after, right

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Speaker 1: after the liberation from Egypt and the revelation at Sinai.

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Speaker 1: How could they do this right now after you see

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Speaker 1: God's miracles? How literally, how can you possibly builds this idol?

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Speaker 1: And even then in that juncture, at that moment, God forgives,

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Speaker 1: God forgives the Israeli nation for the grievous collective and

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Speaker 1: national sin that they have committed. So the moral of

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Speaker 1: the story, folks, at this time of the year on

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Speaker 1: the calendar, for both Jews and Christians alike, is that

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Speaker 1: there is no such thing as something that you are

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Speaker 1: so upset yourself for you are so angry yourself. You're

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Speaker 1: not so small in the acts in the eyes of God.

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Speaker 1: We're all made in that divine image, all of us,

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Speaker 1: not just the ones that are quote unquote perfect on

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Speaker 1: some arbitrary metric. Who was perfect, but God Almighty himself,

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Speaker 1: None of us are. We all have that spark of

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Speaker 1: the divine made in His image per Genesis one twenty seven,

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Speaker 1: and we all have the uniquely human capability of genuinely

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Speaker 1: engaging in the repentance process and seeking atonement. And if

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Speaker 1: we do that, then God will be standing there to

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Speaker 1: forgive us. And so too, according to the dictates of

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Speaker 1: our own conscience and the teachings of the revelations of

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Speaker 1: our own respective religions. So too, then when we have

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Speaker 1: the possibility of being deemed now. Our guest coming up

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Speaker 1: on today's show, which would be the bulk of today's show,

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Speaker 1: is Judge Roy Altman, who was a sitting federal judge

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Speaker 1: in the US's record for the Southern digit of Florida,

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Speaker 1: who has a wonderful book coming out later this month.

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Speaker 1: Israel on trial, examining the history of the evidence and

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Speaker 1: the law. He's looking at the post October seven, twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three war, not just in gods, but also involving

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Speaker 1: has blaw this Seventh Front war that Israel was fighting

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Speaker 1: there for a while. He's looking at this from an

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Speaker 1: international law perspective. Look, there have been centuries of folks

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Speaker 1: who have thought on themselves as international lawyers, international law jurorsmae.

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Speaker 1: This goes back to the eighteenth century with with some

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Speaker 1: European thinkers, some dutch Man folks like Emmerdvattel, who wrote

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Speaker 1: to his famous treatise The Law of Nations in seventy

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Speaker 1: fifty eight. There international law that was a very misunderstood concept,

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Speaker 1: and unfortunately, in the modern era, international law is much

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Speaker 1: more often used as an offensive sword, as a cudgel

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Speaker 1: than it is as a shield, and is weaponized. It

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Speaker 1: is weaponized as a sword, it is used erroneously, it

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Speaker 1: is used incorrectly as a sword.

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Speaker 2: At that.

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Speaker 1: Israel tends to be at the crucible, at the epicenter

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Speaker 1: of this international law gang up. When it comes to

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Speaker 1: all these various institutions that are just invariably and verily

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Speaker 1: ganging up on the ones of the world's one tiny

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Speaker 1: Jewish state and accusing it of all sorts of terrible things.

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Speaker 1: We'll get some mess with Judge all when it comes

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Speaker 1: to things like genocide and the reason for this in miasmation,

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Speaker 1: we'll get Judge Alsman's view as well. The reason for

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Speaker 1: this gang up is essentially the reason I believe for

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Speaker 1: the eternal existence of anti Semitism, and it is eternal.

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Speaker 1: It's never going to go away. I am not so

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Speaker 1: complacent to say that it should not be fought. That

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Speaker 1: is certainly not my stance, but it is part seemingly

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Speaker 1: of the cosmological order. It is part certainly of God's plan.

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Speaker 1: And the reason that Israel is so single that when

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Speaker 1: it comes to international law, because the very notion of

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Speaker 1: international law, of a globalist schemes, of globalist utopia's is

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Speaker 1: inherently is inherently an effort to try to impose by will,

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Speaker 1: by force, or some other measure, to impose something unto

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Speaker 1: the broader world. And what is here or there and everywhere?

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Speaker 1: What is the number one foe of universalists, of globalists,

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Speaker 1: of hegimens, of those who seek to impose their will

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Speaker 1: on the masses? The number one thorn the side and

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Speaker 1: the biggest obstacle are the particulars the nationalists. The particulars

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Speaker 1: of the nationalists are here, there, and everywhere. The thorn

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Speaker 1: the side of the utopian globalists. Well, the Jewish people

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Speaker 1: have been the quintessential particularists for thousands and thousands of years,

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Speaker 1: the quintessential example of refusing to fully assimilate into the

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Speaker 1: ways of the world, to fully assimilate maybe into the

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Speaker 1: ways of the nations. To again take us back to

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Speaker 1: this international treatise from Emeraldvatal from two to fifty years

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Speaker 1: ago the law of nations there So, to me, it

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Speaker 1: is nothing less than this, than this conception of the

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Speaker 1: modern nineteen forty eight post state of Israel as the

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Speaker 1: Jew of the world. That really, ultimately is why so

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Speaker 1: much of this fixation, because really there's.

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Speaker 2: I mean, think about this way.

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Speaker 1: Is there any other country where the words international law

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Speaker 1: are deployed as often? You know, priborly to Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: getting a remarkable peace treaty between Armenia and Uzerbaijan last August,

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Speaker 1: there are all sorts of interesting international law arguments about

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Speaker 1: some of the disputed territory there, known as the Nigorno

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Speaker 1: Karobach region. Well, did you ever hear international law using

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Speaker 1: that contest?

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Speaker 3: Point? On?

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Speaker 1: How many times have you heard international law use though

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Speaker 1: in the context of Gaza and today and Samaria aka

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Speaker 1: the West Bank. It's a fixation, and the fixation is

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Speaker 1: coming from a deeply unhealthy place, as I've just explained.

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Speaker 1: But it's a fixation, nonetheless. And when there is a fixation,

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Speaker 1: and a fixation is rooted in faulty premises and ultimately

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Speaker 1: seeks to disseminate bad, wrongheaded, immoral, or perhaps outright evil things.

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Speaker 1: When that happens, that fixation must be confronted, and fortunately

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Speaker 1: there are people like Royleman to do exactly that.

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Speaker 2: So folks do with this.

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Speaker 1: Through a quick commercial break, we're going to bring on

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Speaker 1: right after this break, Judge Royalment, a judge from the

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Speaker 1: US Districport for the Southern District of Florida, to talk

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Speaker 1: about his book out later this month, Israel on Trial

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Speaker 1: Examining the History, the Evidence, and the Law. To stay

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Speaker 1: with us, Judge Alman joints on the other side, welcome back,

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Speaker 1: so as we continue our passover in Eastern themed conversation

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Speaker 1: that we're having here today on the Joshammer Show. Is

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Speaker 1: just a thrilled to bring on a wonderful man, a

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Speaker 1: wonderful fellow Floridian who I'm proud to now call a friend,

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Speaker 1: that is Judge Roy Altman.

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Speaker 2: Judge Altman is a.

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Speaker 1: US judge on the US District Court for the Southern

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Speaker 1: District of Florida. He is also, perhaps even more relevant

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Speaker 1: for present purposes, the author of the soon to be

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Speaker 1: released book Israel on Trial Examining the history, the evidence,

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Speaker 1: and the laws. So Judge Aldman, welcome to the Josh

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Speaker 1: Shammer show. It's truly an honor to have you. I

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Speaker 1: think you might actually be the first sitting, active federal

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Speaker 1: judge that we've possibly ever had here on the show.

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Speaker 1: So we're breaking barriers here on the show today and

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Speaker 1: wishing a very happy passover. And it's wonderful to have

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Speaker 1: you here. So you wrote this book, and this book

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Speaker 1: was written in the context and the aftermath of the

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Speaker 1: horrific Hamas Pagrama of October seventh, twenty and twenty three.

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Speaker 1: Before we get into a little more detail here, and

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Speaker 1: there's a lot that I do want to dive into here,

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Speaker 1: just contextualize the moment a little bit for us here.

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Speaker 1: You are a federal judge. It's not necessarily a common thing.

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Speaker 2: I would know.

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Speaker 1: I clerk for fed judge myself. It's not common for

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Speaker 1: judges to publish books like this. But you are so

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Speaker 1: passionate as I know about these issues here. What ultimately

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Speaker 1: was it that really galvanized you to get this involved

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Speaker 1: ultimately to publish this new book that comes out there

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Speaker 1: this month.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, thank you for having me, Josh.

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Speaker 3: It's nice to break barriers together with you, and I'm

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Speaker 3: honored to be on the show. I think I just

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Speaker 3: go back to the nights after October seventh, my wife

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Speaker 3: and I, like so many people who love freedom and

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Speaker 3: the rule of law around the world, totally confused by

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Speaker 3: the reaction on many Western campuses, people who sided with fascistic,

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Speaker 3: tyrannical Jihadis regime against a pluralistic rule of law democracy,

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Speaker 3: an ally and a friend of the United States, And

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Speaker 3: for nights on end, my wife and I just doom,

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Speaker 3: scrolling on our phones, not able to sleep, looking for

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Speaker 3: some bit of good news and finding very little. One night,

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Speaker 3: maybe three nights in three four in the morning, my

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Speaker 3: wife turned to me, reached out her hand and grabbed mine,

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Speaker 3: and I looked over at her, and she had a

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Speaker 3: tear in her eye, which is unusual because she's very tough,

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Speaker 3: very strong, And she said to me, how is it

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Speaker 3: that eighty years after the Holocaust we are all still alone?

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Speaker 3: And then something amazing happened. Then it turned out we

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Speaker 3: weren't alone. In the days and weeks and months after

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Speaker 3: October seventh, dozens and hundreds, even thousands of people that

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Speaker 3: we've known, friends in the judiciary and outside of the judiciary,

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Speaker 3: would reach out to us, text, call, come to visit

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Speaker 3: to show us that they stood shoulder to shoulder with us,

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Speaker 3: that they stood shoulder to shoulder with the Jewish people

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Speaker 3: and all of Western civilization more broadly, and started inviting

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Speaker 3: me around the country to give speeches about the history

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Speaker 3: of the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, Israel

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Speaker 3: under international law, Israel as an essential ally of the

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Speaker 3: United States in an otherwise very dangerous neighborhood. And one

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Speaker 3: of those speeches, I met a guy who was the publisher,

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Speaker 3: the CEO of a publishing company, and he said, hey,

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Speaker 3: I love your speech. Not a Jewish guy, and he said,

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Speaker 3: I want to publish that in a book. And I said, well,

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Speaker 3: I don't have an agent, I don't have an editor.

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Speaker 3: I'm a federal judge. I don't have time for that.

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Speaker 3: And he said, well, you find the time and I'll

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Speaker 3: publish it. You've skipped all those steps. And so I

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Speaker 3: took four weeks when we were on vacation for the

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Speaker 3: summer out in California. I dropped my kids off at

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Speaker 3: surf camp and then come home and plug away at

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Speaker 3: the book on the laptop and made it happen in

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Speaker 3: about four weeks. And that's how the book came to

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Speaker 3: be you.

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Speaker 2: Wrote the whole manuscript in four weeks, though you just

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Speaker 2: said I.

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Speaker 3: Wrote the whole manuscript in four weeks. You know. I

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Speaker 3: tried to just basically take the speech I was giving

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Speaker 3: from memory and write it down on the page and

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Speaker 3: figured that would be enough for a book. But when

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Speaker 3: it got written, it was like twenty nine pages, and

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh god, I got a lot of

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Speaker 3: I got a long way to go. So that first

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Speaker 3: day was a little bit of a disappointment, and then

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Speaker 3: I worked on it for about four weeks and got

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Speaker 3: the draft done.

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Speaker 1: So just for context here, for those the audience who

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Speaker 1: have I presume most people are watching this are listening,

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Speaker 1: have not written a book. I did write my first

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Speaker 1: book last year. There was a gratuscript. I appreciate that

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Speaker 1: judge very much, but just for the Awnes's context, it

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Speaker 1: took me probably six to six and a half months

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Speaker 1: to write that manuscript, and frankly, I thought that was

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Speaker 1: pretty quick. Actually, I think I think in the publishing

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Speaker 1: industry six months is considered a quick issue time frame.

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Speaker 1: So for four weeks, I mean, my goodness, gracious, that

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Speaker 1: is a lot of work very quickly. But I would

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Speaker 1: expect nothing less from today's guests, which again is Judge

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Speaker 1: Roy Altman, who was a sitting feral judge on the

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Speaker 1: US dis Re Court for the Southern Dish of Florid.

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Speaker 1: You can follow him on X by the way, he's

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Speaker 1: got a great new account on X at Roy k Altman, Judge.

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Speaker 1: As we begin to kind of dive a little more

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Speaker 1: substantively into this book, which again comes out later this month,

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Speaker 1: it's called Israel on Trial, examining the history of the

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Speaker 1: evidence and the law. Before getting into the Middle East

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Speaker 1: or the state of Israel in particular, there, I want

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Speaker 1: to start out a little broader here.

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Speaker 2: International law.

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Speaker 1: There is an enormous amount of confusion about this particular topic.

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Speaker 1: A lot of my fellow conservatives, I think, tend to

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Speaker 1: get a little cheeky on this one. Judge, I hear

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Speaker 1: a lot of folks have international laws fictitious. They say

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Speaker 1: it's fake, it's not a real thing, And there's some

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Speaker 1: truth in that, but they're being a little too cute

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Speaker 1: by half. There is such thing as the law of Nations.

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Speaker 1: Going back hundreds of years, there were these great Dutch

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Speaker 1: theorists like Degrocious who wrote these books on the law

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Speaker 1: of nations in the seventeen hundreds. So I think it's

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Speaker 1: it's a little overstating the case to say that international

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Speaker 1: law does not exist, but it definitely does not have

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Speaker 1: the binding force of nature that I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of global utopians, like those of the Nine Nations might

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Speaker 1: think that it has there. So before we go any further,

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Speaker 1: let's kind of define some terms here. What actually is

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Speaker 1: international law from your perspective.

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Speaker 3: Well, the answer to your question is yes and no, right,

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Speaker 3: because international law can take many forms. There are conventions

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Speaker 3: that are signed by the representatives of different countries in

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Speaker 3: the world who get together and they negotiate and they

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Speaker 3: hammer things out, and they bring their own separate interests

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Speaker 3: in their own separate viewpoints. And then in the end,

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Speaker 3: when the document is set to be ratified, some countries

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Speaker 3: can back out and not sign it, and that that

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Speaker 3: happens from time to time. We the United States, for example,

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Speaker 3: we're not we're not members signatory members to some treaties

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Speaker 3: and we are to others. On the other hand, when

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Speaker 3: a country comes to the negotiating table, gives some but

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Speaker 3: gets what it wants in part, it can choose to

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Speaker 3: be a signatory and to elect to be bound by

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Speaker 3: that legal regime, which means that you're effectively saying this

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Speaker 3: international court, either in one instance, like the ICJ, for example,

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Speaker 3: the International Court of Justice, This international court can adjudicate

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Speaker 3: claims with respect to me if I violate the terms

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Speaker 3: of this agreement that we all negotiated. And that'll become important,

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Speaker 3: I think later in our conversation when we talk about

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Speaker 3: the Genocide Convention, which both Israel and the Geneva Convention,

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Speaker 3: which both Israel and the United States are signatory members of.

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Speaker 3: But of course, where a country chooses not to be

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Speaker 3: a signatory to a particular treaty like, for example, the

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Speaker 3: treaty that created the International Criminal Court what's known as

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Speaker 3: the ICC, a different treaty, Israel and the United States

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Speaker 3: have chosen not to be members of that court, and

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Speaker 3: so technically that court shouldn't have juris diction over countries

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Speaker 3: like Israel and the United States that have elected not

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Speaker 3: to be bound by it. And so then the last

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Speaker 3: part of it is sometimes American law and domestic law,

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Speaker 3: and countries more broadly can choose to domesticate the international

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Speaker 3: legal regimes. So you might say, for example, you might say,

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Speaker 3: if you're the government of Netherlands or Belgium or France.

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Speaker 3: You might say, I'm a member of this treaty. I

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Speaker 3: agree to be bound by these requirements, and so do

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Speaker 3: all the other signatory nations. And if the requirements involve war, genocide,

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Speaker 3: or the laws of war, we might say, okay, we're

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Speaker 3: going to agree to continue to sell a weaponry and

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Speaker 3: weapons components parts to countries so long as they abide

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Speaker 3: by the terms of these treaties. But if a country

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Speaker 3: is found to have violated the terms of this or

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Speaker 3: that treaty, then under our domestic law, we might prohibit

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Speaker 3: our government from selling weapons or weapons components to that

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Speaker 3: particular country. And that's why some of these international courts

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Speaker 3: actually can have some teeth, because many of their rulings

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Speaker 3: effect to the extent to which domestic governments under domestic

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Speaker 3: law can continue to do business with countries like, for example,

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Speaker 3: Russia or Venezuela or Iran.

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Speaker 2: Lots of great stuff in there. For further thought.

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Speaker 1: For sure, look, I totally agree with you, to be sure,

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Speaker 1: I think though, Judge, I know you hear this. Just

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Speaker 1: as I do something, You'll say international law it's totally fake.

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Speaker 1: And like, look, I mean a lot of it is fake.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I mean a lot of what the United

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Speaker 1: Nations rent is called international law does not necessarily have

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Speaker 1: the full binding force of international law as you're defining

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Speaker 1: when it comes to biolateral treaties there. But there is

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Speaker 1: something there and what that's something I think, I think

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Speaker 1: is very irrelevant. Unfortunately, the institutions of international laws, you know,

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Speaker 1: have been weaponized profoundly against the United States, against Israel,

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Speaker 1: against a lot of our like minded country. Has been

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Speaker 1: vesting problem for a very long time. Is one of

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Speaker 1: the many issues that I want to explore further with

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Speaker 1: today's guest, Judge Royelman. After a very short commercial break,

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Speaker 1: stay of this folks. Judge Ollan will join us right

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Speaker 1: after a short break for further discussion of his book

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Speaker 1: coming out this month, Israel on Trial examine the history

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Speaker 1: of the evidence in the law. We'll be right back

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Speaker 1: with Judge Royalman. Welcome back, and Judge Royalman is also back.

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Speaker 1: Judge Alman is a judge on the US District Court

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Speaker 1: for the Southern Dish to Florida, author of the book

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Speaker 1: out later this month, Israel on Trial, examining the history,

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Speaker 1: the evidence and the law. So Judge, I want to

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Speaker 1: now dive a little deeper into the shall we say,

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Speaker 1: peculiar focus of these bias institutions of international law when

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Speaker 1: it comes to the State of Israel, which is a

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Speaker 1: large chunk certainly of your soon to be forthcoming book.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned genocide earlier in our conversation. There were all

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Speaker 1: sorts of legal terms that got bandied about during Israel's

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Speaker 1: response to the horrific m pagram this Nazis slaughter. Folks

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Speaker 1: start accusing Israel of genocide. There was a lot of

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Speaker 1: talk about the international law doctrine of proportionality, which doesn't

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Speaker 1: really mean what a lot of people think it means.

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Speaker 1: They're Can you just talk to us about some of

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Speaker 1: the most common international law misconceptions of this particular October

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Speaker 1: seventh and post October seventh and MILU and try to

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Speaker 1: set the record straight on some of them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So those are actually two sources of law. One

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Speaker 3: is international humanitarian law, or what we know is the

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Speaker 3: laws of war, and that has several elements, the doctrine

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Speaker 3: of mitigation, for example, which says you need to mitigate

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Speaker 3: as much as possible to harm to a civilian population.

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Speaker 3: The doctrine of proportionality which you mentioned, which says that

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Speaker 3: it doesn't mean what people think it means. It doesn't

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Speaker 3: mean that if you kill twenty of my people, I

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Speaker 3: can only kill twenty of your people. If it meant that,

434
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 3: then no one could ever actually win a war. It

435
00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 3: just means that any individual strike that the bets, the

436
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 3: military benefits of any individual strike must be proportionate to

437
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 3: their collateral consequences. And so we want countries to make

438
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 3: assessments both before the war begins and once the war

439
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 3: has begun and strikes are being called in about the

440
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 3: collateral consequences of each given strike, you know, with respect

441
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 3: to personality. I'll say a couple of things. One, there

442
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 3: was a New York Times article during the war which

443
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 3: received all kinds of attention for precisely the wrong reasons.

444
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 3: The New York Times article made clear, using some confidential discussions,

445
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 3: that Israel had increased the ratio that it would allow

446
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 3: its lawyers to authorize strikes for We'll talk more about

447
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 3: that in a second. From I think it was ten

448
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 3: civilians per Hamas target to up to twenty depending on

449
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 3: who the target was. And so they said, well, this

450
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 3: is outrageous, and this is just another evidence, a piece

451
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 3: of evidence in the case against Israel as having committed genocide.

452
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 3: This is precisely the evidence that shows that Israel does

453
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 3: not commit genocide and that Israel is following the laws

454
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 3: of war, because it's it's exactly this kind of complicated

455
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:28,959
Speaker 3: and frankly tragic cost benefit analysis that international law requires

456
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 3: nations to engage in before they undertake these strikes. So

457
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 3: Israel was saying, because of the complicated nation nature of

458
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 3: this war where we've been attacked, there's been this strategic

459
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 3: fragility that took place where Israel was fighting on seven

460
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,719
Speaker 3: fronts at the same time, and because of the fact

461
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 3: that Kamas was embedding its military architecture both within and

462
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 3: underneath the civilian structures and Gaza. We the judges, I

463
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 3: started leading trips of federal judges to Israel after October seventh.

464
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 3: We the judges saw with our own eyes rocket launchers

465
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 3: being launched from little girls' bedrooms, people shooting out of mosques,

466
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 3: Hamas terrorists hiding in hospitals and schools. I myself had

467
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 3: an intern whose first cousin was in the IDF and

468
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 3: was killed stepping on a landmine. Hamas had left inside

469
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 3: of an elementary school, next to pictures and cartoons and

470
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 3: drawings for the children. So, given the complicated nature of

471
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 3: fighting Hamas, in that context, Israel said, we need to

472
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 3: allow for more latitude for our commanders to be able

473
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 3: to win this war. Obviously, Israel would prefer that Camas

474
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 3: just came out of its dungeons and Israel and Caamas

475
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 3: would just hash it out out there in the desert

476
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 3: one on one. But Hamas knows it would be destroyed.

477
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 3: It doesn't want that, so it embeds itself within an

478
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 3: underneath the civilian population in order to increase rather than decrease,

479
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 3: the harm to the civilian popular because it knows the

480
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 3: only way for it to win, which is to say,

481
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 3: to survive to fight another day, is to have lots

482
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 3: of civilian casualties that would then cause Western countries like

483
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 3: ours to force Israel to stop. So the point about

484
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 3: proportionality is that Israel is actually engaging on a daily

485
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 3: basis with its lawyers who are deployed with the commanders

486
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 3: in the field in precisely the kind of cost benefit

487
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 3: analysis the law of proportionality requires. Is that just underscores

488
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 3: the extent to which Israel is not committing genocide and

489
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 3: not violating the laws of war. In fact, they'll tell

490
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 3: you one other thing about these lawyers. They're called mags

491
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 3: in Israel, military advocate generals just like our jags, judge

492
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 3: advocate generals here in the United States, our jags. When

493
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 3: they give instructions to a commander in the field, those

494
00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 3: instructions are precatory their advisory. The commander can override them,

495
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 3: doesn't have to follow them. So if a lawyer in

496
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 3: the United States says, hey, too many civilians there, don't

497
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 3: strike that target, the commander can say, well, I think

498
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 3: the target's very important. I'm going to override you and

499
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 3: strike the target. In Israel, these mags are actually deployed

500
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 3: in the field with the commanders. And if the lawyer

501
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 3: tells the commander not to strike a target because of

502
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 3: the collateral consequences on the civilian population, that is not

503
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 3: a precatory instruction. That is, in order mandatory that must

504
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 3: be followed unless the commander wants to go up the

505
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 3: chain of command, which ultimately can go to a court

506
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 3: of justice that would rule and decide on whether the

507
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 3: strike was appropriate given all the collateral consequences. And we

508
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 3: the judges. On our trips, we saw firsthand video after

509
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 3: video after video of an Israeli plane or drone over

510
00:28:54,800 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 3: a clear Commas target, guys with rifles or bazooka, all

511
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 3: wearing the kafias, by the way, that are now somehow

512
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 3: fashionable on Western campuses, and the pilot says, I'm ready

513
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 3: to strike, and then something amazing happens. A lawyer, a

514
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 3: nerdy lawyer, comes over the airwave and says, hey, what's

515
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 3: that on the top right part of the screen. And

516
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,479
Speaker 3: the pilot will say, oh, that's two kids playing soccer

517
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 3: fifty meters away. What's that on the left part of

518
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 3: the screen. Now, that's two women walking holding a loaf

519
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 3: of bread. Strike canceled, Strike, canceled, over and over and

520
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 3: over again. That is just a tiny piece, but a

521
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 3: critical piece of evidence in the legal case showing that

522
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 3: Israel is not only not committing genocide, the ultimate crime

523
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 3: of crimes, which requires proof of an intent, a specific

524
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 3: intent to eradicate the entire civilian population on the other

525
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 3: side for reasons of race or religion or ethnicity as such,

526
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 3: which means that you're trying to kill them, not because

527
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 3: they have a terrorist population inside of them, or because

528
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 3: they have attacked you and invaded southern Israel, but because

529
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 3: you want to wipe them off from the face of

530
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 3: the earth. That's what we saw with Nazi journey, That's

531
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 3: what we saw in of course Rwanda. That has nothing

532
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 3: to do with what was happening in Gaza. And one

533
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: more point about that. Israel has sent over twenty million

534
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 3: text messages, made over twenty million phone calls, issued millions

535
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 3: of leaflets and social media posts telling the civilian population

536
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 3: of Gaza exactly which homes and neighborhoods would be attacked

537
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 3: the next day and the day after that. When it

538
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 3: does that, it of course alerts not just the civilian

539
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 3: population of Gaza, but the enemy population, the Hamas and

540
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 3: Palestinian Islamic Jahada fighters as well, thereby endangering the lives

541
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 3: of Israel's own sons and daughters. The High Level Military

542
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 3: Group the HLMG, which is an international coalition of high

543
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 3: level officers and generals in almost every western army in

544
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 3: the world, has submitted a brick to the ICC making

545
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 3: clear that Israel's warning system is not only totally and

546
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 3: definitionally inconsistent with any claim of genocide or law of war, violation.

547
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 3: Think for example, would the Nazis have warned Jews not

548
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 3: to go into the gas chambers? Would the genocide the

549
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 3: regime in Rwanda have warned the ethnic population On the

550
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 3: other side, the civilian population to steer away from military

551
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 3: checkpoints and facilities. Of course not. The question is absurd

552
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 3: even to ask it. The HLMG group said, not only

553
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 3: is it definitionally the warning system definitionally not genocide, it

554
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 3: also is the most sophisticated warning system in the world.

555
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 3: And they say our own armies, America's, Japans and other

556
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 3: armies in the West would never be able to implement

557
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 3: such a warning system because our own civilian populations would

558
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 3: never go along with allowing our sons and daughters to

559
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 3: be endangered by warning the enemy about where we would

560
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 3: be attacking.

561
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: The next day, Judge Roylman a man who clearly knows

562
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,479
Speaker 1: what he is talking about. Check out his book that

563
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: comes out later this month, Israel on Trial, examining the

564
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: history of the evidence and the law. Judge Aldman will

565
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: join us yet again after a very short commotion breakstay

566
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: with us, folks. We're going to wrap up our conversation

567
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: with a wonderful man and a wonderful jurist. That's Judge

568
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: Royleman of the U. S. District Court for the District

569
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: Southern District of Florida. We'll be right back with Judge Aleman.

570
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: Welcome back, and Judge Roylmand joins us again as well.

571
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: You can follow Judge Almant on X As a reminder,

572
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: his brand new Twitter account is at Roy k Altman

573
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: brand new book comes out there this month, Israel on Trial,

574
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: examining the history of the evidence and the law. Judge,

575
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: before the break, you were making these these analogies to

576
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: some of the atrocities of World War Two and various

577
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: other atrocities from the past century, aftertalitarianism and so forth.

578
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: There I too often thought about World War Two while

579
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: watching the post October seven, twenty twenty three war unfold.

580
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: I had a specific question for you, actually, when it

581
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: comes to the law of siege and some of the

582
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: humanitarian concerns of that. There was this whole debate at

583
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: various times. It was mostly in the bidministration, but I

584
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: guess it held over a little bit to the early

585
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: days of the Second tri administration as to Israel's obligations

586
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: or purported obligations when it comes to the people in

587
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: Gaza when it comes to electricity and power and food

588
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: and water, and the Bidme minstration was very, very, very tough,

589
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: invariably on primers Natanyahu and the Israelis. But Judge I

590
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: could not thinking about World War Two, I mean, the

591
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: United States was bombed at Pearl Harbor by Imperial Japan.

592
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: The United States not think about how he could give

593
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: food and water to the Japanese civilians prior to the

594
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: Doolittle rate. I don't think we thought about this when

595
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: it came to the Germans, iire prior to the carpet

596
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: bombing of Dresden. And I couldn't help but think this

597
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: is just a total act of historical amnesia and historical

598
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: revisionism to think that a country that has been has

599
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: been attacked as brutally as Israel was. Again, it's equivalent

600
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: of like forty five to fifty nine to elevens on

601
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: a proportional population comparison.

602
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 2: There, I am I just totally off there?

603
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: Or was the commentary broadly speaking of it making it

604
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: seem like Israel had this overriding not just moral but

605
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: actually like a literal legal obligation to provide this sort

606
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: of aid Well.

607
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 3: I won't comment on this or that administration, but the

608
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 3: point is well taken. The law of siege, the law

609
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 3: of war enshrines the right of every army to engage

610
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 3: in siege warfare. It's in the manual of every Western army,

611
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 3: including ours. By the way, In fact, the law of

612
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 3: the siege warfare, the strategy of engaging in siege warfare

613
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 3: is often in these military codebooks seen as the more

614
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,399
Speaker 3: humane option when compared with what you're describing, which is

615
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,439
Speaker 3: what we did in Japan and in Germany in World

616
00:34:54,520 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 3: War Two. Were you carpet bomb or indiscriminately bomb a

617
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 3: an urban center in order to destroy the infrastructure there

618
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 3: and force the population to surrender. So the law of

619
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 3: siege is actually seen as oftentimes the more humane option,

620
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 3: and the laws of war enshrine the right of every

621
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 3: nation to engage in siege warfare. Now you're not allowed

622
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 3: to engage in siege warfare in order to purposefully starve

623
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 3: the civilian population. On the other side, you're allowed to

624
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 3: get engaged in siege warfare in order to starve the

625
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 3: enemy population that's there and to win the war against

626
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 3: the enemy army that's embedded within the civilian population. But

627
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 3: there's also an exception to the rule involving siege warfare,

628
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 3: the rule that says you're not allowed to starve an

629
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 3: enemy population or prevent them from getting fuel or electricity,

630
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 3: where it becomes clear that a significant percentage of the

631
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 3: aid that you're allowing into the enemy's civilian population is

632
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 3: actually being hijacked and taken by the enemy army. And

633
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 3: that's precisely what we have here. It's now clear, beyond

634
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 3: peradventure that Hamas was stealing a huge proportion of the aid.

635
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 3: And by the way, we should say what's now clear,

636
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 3: which is that Israel provided and facilitated into Gaza during

637
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 3: the two and a half or so years of the

638
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 3: war more aid, more food, more fuel, more electricity, more

639
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 3: medicine than any other army has ever allowed into the

640
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 3: enemy civilian population in a time of war. In the

641
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 3: last fifty years period in full, they provided polio vaccines. Again,

642
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 3: we talked about genocide. Do we think the Nazis were

643
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 3: interested in vaccinating the Jews they were pushing into the

644
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 3: gas chamber? The question answers itself the IDF when it

645
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 3: became clear, when there were rumors that there was polio

646
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 3: outbreak among a few children in Gaza. The IDF went

647
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 3: moved the entire civilian population of Rafa out of Rafa,

648
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 3: out of harm's way. People said it couldn't be done.

649
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 3: You remember the whole Eyes on Rafa campaign. We forgot

650
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 3: about that because it was done. In about ten days.

651
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 3: One point one or one point two million people were

652
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,720
Speaker 3: moved out of Rafa into a series of housing units

653
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 3: that the Israeli government had built for them for a

654
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 3: million people, with food purveyors, with makeshift hospitals, with running water.

655
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 3: And they went and they vaccinated two shots, not just

656
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 3: one for polio. They provided two shots for free to

657
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 3: something like ninety eight or ninety nine percent of the

658
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 3: children in that part of Gaza. Completely incompatible with any

659
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 3: claim that Israel was purposefully trying to harm rather than help,

660
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 3: the civilian population of Gaza. And so, to go back

661
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 3: to my point, Israel was not required actually to allow

662
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 3: all of this aid, food, water, and electricity into Gaza

663
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 3: under the laws of war because once it became clear

664
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 3: that the war was actually dragging on longer, creating more

665
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 3: pressure on the civilian population, because the war was not

666
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 3: coming to an end, precisely because Hamas was stealing so

667
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 3: much of the aid in order to fund its war machine.

668
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 3: Hamas was taking the food, and taking the medicine, and

669
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 3: taking the fuel. It was using the fuel to power

670
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 3: up its underground terror network, terror tunnel network. It was

671
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 3: using the food both to feed its fighters and to

672
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 3: hoard food on the black market, charging exorbitant rates of

673
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,439
Speaker 3: the civilian population of Gaza for basic food stuffs which

674
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 3: came from the international community. As soon as that became clear,

675
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 3: which it's now, as I said, clear beyond peradventure. There

676
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 3: are videos of it. There are testimonials from civilians in Gaza.

677
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 3: The hostages who've been released all talked about how much

678
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 3: food un food and international aid, food and medicine Hamas

679
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 3: captors had all the time. Once that became clear, international

680
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 3: law no longer required Israel not to engage in siege

681
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 3: warfare in Gaza.

682
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: Judge Railman is the author of the book that comes

683
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 1: out later this month, Israel on Trial, examining the history

684
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 1: of the evidence and the law.

685
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 2: Has been very gracious with our time. Just a couple

686
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 2: of minutes left here before I let you go. It

687
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 2: has been a wonderful conversation.

688
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: I want to end on a non law related not

689
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: or at least a non legal specific related note, which

690
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: is this. I find that when Israel's various defenders when

691
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: it comes to international law, folks like you Uchi Kontarovich,

692
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: but when folks defend Israel from an an actual legal perspective,

693
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: it's very hard to combat that. To a lot of

694
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: what you've said here, I genuinely fail to understand time,

695
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: is what the actual alternative argument is. I've written some

696
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: of these essays, a lot of it's in my book

697
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: as well, Israel's Civilization so forth there. But I guess, judge,

698
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: my question to you is is why why has so

699
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: much of the propaganda to the contrary act really gone

700
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: out there?

701
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 3: I just think that the enemies of Western civilization have

702
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 3: been at this game for a very long time. We

703
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 3: know that the Holy Land Foundation was planning exactly what

704
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 3: ended up happening on our college campuses way back in

705
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 3: the early nineties. Those wired types taps have been made public.

706
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 3: Those individuals were charged, indicted, and convicted for planning terroristic activity.

707
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 3: But what people forget about it is that the conversation

708
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 3: they were having in that hotel room was all about

709
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 3: how America was too Zionist. How everyone in America recognized

710
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 3: at the time how vital Israel was for America's national security,

711
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 3: and how they meant to change that, and the way

712
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 3: they planned to do it was to create this red

713
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 3: Green alliance. They knew that young people, especially socialists, could

714
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 3: be influenced in this way, and they would go to

715
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 3: the high school campuses, and they would go to the

716
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 3: college campuses, and they would try to convince them with

717
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 3: suppressor oppressed narrative that the Palestinians were the underdog, that

718
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 3: they had some relationship to black history in American. By

719
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 3: the way, Palestinian history has absolutely nothing in common with

720
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 3: black history in America. As I always say, there are

721
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 3: blacks who fight and die in this war in Gaza,

722
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 3: but they are all on only one side of this fight.

723
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 3: They're on the Israeli side. Israel is a country that

724
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 3: spent hundreds of millions of dollars taking hundreds of thousands

725
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,439
Speaker 3: of Africans, Ethiopians and Sudanese, bringing them to Israel, and

726
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 3: then incorporating them into full fledged citizens who are now

727
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 3: at every echelon of Israeli society, in the military, in

728
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 3: the academy, in the political level in the bar as judges,

729
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 3: there's this notion that Blacks and Palestinians have anything in common,

730
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 3: or that they're similar underdogs, just completely misstates history and

731
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 3: mistates reality. So it really was a decades long campaign

732
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 3: that has come to fruition under our noses. And the

733
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 3: last thing I'll say on that is we as Jews,

734
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 3: as defenders of the West, as Americans, we were asleep

735
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 3: at the wheel while our adversaries, the Chinese, the Russians,

736
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 3: the Iranians, and much of the Muslim brotherhood was going

737
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 3: all around our country to our campuses and with our

738
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 3: young people infiltrating our media organizations in order to get

739
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 3: us to the point where we are today.

740
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: What's that about that, Judge? Thanks to folks like you,

741
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are starting to wake ups.

742
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 1: One fun time, folks.

743
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: Judge.

744
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: Roy Oldman is the author of the new book out

745
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: later this month, Israel on Trial, examining the history of

746
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: the evidence of the Wall. Follow him on X as

747
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: well at Roy Kalman. Judge, thank you for spending so

748
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: much time that say really appreciate, Wishing you a very

749
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: happy passover.

750
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 3: Same to you, Josh, Thanks for having me it's.

751
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 2: All you out there.

752
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: Wishing you my fellow Jews, a happy Passover, and so

753
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: all our Chritian friends, which you may very blessed. Good

754
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 1: Friday and blessed Easter Sunday as well, God blessed. We'll

755
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: be right back on

756
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 3: And