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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian on

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Speaker 1: Doctor James Spencer and I am joined today by Reverend

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Speaker 1: doctor Andrew Hale, who has written a new book called

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Speaker 1: Mending the Fracturing Church, How to navigate conflict and build

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Speaker 1: trust for thriving Communities. He's also the host of the

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Speaker 1: CBF podcast Conversation and the Clergy Confessions podcast and so

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Speaker 1: excited to have Andy here today to talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about his book about churches and about what we

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Speaker 1: can do to really strengthen them. So Andy, welcome, James,

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Speaker 1: thanks for having me. I think just starting off, give

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Speaker 1: everybody a little bit of a sense of your background.

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Speaker 1: What you know, what's your experience with churches and maybe

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Speaker 1: why did you feel like this topic was something you've

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Speaker 1: you felt led to write about.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I've been in the church since the womb. You know,

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Speaker 2: my mother taught Sunday school, my dad served as you know, deacon,

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Speaker 2: every possible committee you can think about. So when I

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Speaker 2: I received my calling to ministry at fourteen, the last

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Speaker 2: place I wanted to apply that calling was to the church.

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Speaker 2: And I really ran from that for honestly about seven

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Speaker 2: or eight years, trying every other kind of ministry that

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Speaker 2: was out there and enjoyed a lot of different expressions,

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Speaker 2: but my sense of what the church was was that

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Speaker 2: the church was broken. It was full of broken people,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't want to have to deal with that.

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Speaker 2: And of course that's a very self righteous perspective. And

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Speaker 2: transformation came and I spent three months with a pastor's

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Speaker 2: family in Sri Lanka after the tsunami in four and

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Speaker 2: I just saw what it meant to actually care for

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Speaker 2: people and nurture people, to pastor a church and to

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Speaker 2: be a part of a community. And I came home,

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Speaker 2: sent my resume out, and I've been working in a

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Speaker 2: congregational life since then, served in a lot of different

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Speaker 2: expressions of church and a lot of different roles, you know,

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Speaker 2: both as associate path and senior pastor in several congregations,

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Speaker 2: church starter, serving in several different denominational roles. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm unabashed in saying that I loved the church, and

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Speaker 2: I think the church is at a critical juncture right

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Speaker 2: now in which we need to be thinking critically and

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Speaker 2: equipping ourselves at a different level to navigate the challenges

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Speaker 2: we're facing today. And so really that's why I wrote

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Speaker 2: this was trying to resource the church with a different

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Speaker 2: set of tools.

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Speaker 1: Do you have a sense, I mean, you've been in

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Speaker 1: ministry now for a long time. Do you have a

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Speaker 1: sense of why this has gotten so bad at this point?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I almost hate to go back to COVID

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Speaker 1: because it just seems like it's at some point it

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Speaker 1: becomes the whipping Boy. But I know there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of challenges during that time period. But I also

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Speaker 1: know that even before that we were seeing some fracturing

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Speaker 1: the church. So maybe just give us the lay of

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Speaker 1: the land. When you when you're talking about the fracturing church,

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Speaker 1: what are the major influences that you see causing the

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Speaker 1: church to begin to fracture to a point where this

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Speaker 1: is becoming a real problem.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, first and foremost, the Church has always been in conflict.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you just read the Book of Acts, and

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Speaker 2: it does not take long for humans to be humans.

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Speaker 2: Some really dicey stuff that's in there. You know. My

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Speaker 2: favorite is the whole debate over whether or not, you know,

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Speaker 2: we need to continue to circumcise people in order for

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Speaker 2: them to fully you know, fallow Christ. And let me

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Speaker 2: tell you, there's nothing more hilarious than dropping the word

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Speaker 2: circumcision from the pulpit and just seeing people immediately, you know,

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Speaker 2: you can see their sphincters shrink up just because they

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Speaker 2: don't want to talk about it, you know. So it's yeah,

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Speaker 2: but you fast forward through the decades, through the centuries,

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Speaker 2: the church has always been in a place of flux. Uh.

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Speaker 2: The world has always been advancing and changing, and the

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Speaker 2: world has you know, and the Church have kind of

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Speaker 2: run this this relationship in which we have shifted and

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Speaker 2: adopted with that. Oftentimes the church has been the one

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Speaker 2: advancing culture, and oftentimes the church is being drug by

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Speaker 2: culture forward in positive ways, you know. Kind of fast

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Speaker 2: forwarding to today in which we live in a day

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Speaker 2: and age where there's a greater access to information. Everyone

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Speaker 2: seems to be a resident expert on everything. There is

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Speaker 2: a multiplicity of opportunities that are out there. But you

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Speaker 2: do see a greater vocalization of certain generations that are

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Speaker 2: no longer putting up with what they view to be

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Speaker 2: a disconnect between the ways and teachings of Jesus and

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Speaker 2: what they see in their local church expressions. I mean, overwhelmingly,

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Speaker 2: when you see when people are talking about why they're

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Speaker 2: leaving institutional church, but not leaving their faith. They cite

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Speaker 2: the disconnect of the teachings of Jesus. They cite pulit derision,

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Speaker 2: political idolatry, they cite all kinds of political and social

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Speaker 2: issues that they seek to be detached from what they

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Speaker 2: believe to be what Christ is calling us to in life.

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Speaker 2: And so I think that, among many things, adds to it.

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Speaker 2: The church has, you know, for lack of better terms,

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Speaker 2: we've always been played by politics, right, it's since our

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Speaker 2: since our inception, if you really think about it. But

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Speaker 2: also you look through critical stages in the church's history,

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Speaker 2: politics and what's happening in a government around the church

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Speaker 2: has always given shape to it. This particular time seems

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Speaker 2: to be a little bit different than what we've experienced before,

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Speaker 2: and it's having a critical role in that churches are separating,

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Speaker 2: I mean, families are separating as a result of politics.

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Speaker 2: You imagine that stuff is definitely going to happen in

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Speaker 2: the pews, you know, people not talking to their parents anymore,

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Speaker 2: their children anymore because of their political perspectives.

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Speaker 1: How much of that do you really put I know,

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Speaker 1: I know you did a lot of cogsite and social

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Speaker 1: psychology in this book. Those are areas that I sort

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Speaker 1: of research in as well, especially on the cogsit side.

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Speaker 1: When I look at where we're at right now, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's hard not to highlight the influence of a fragmented

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Speaker 1: media environment. And what I mean by that is when

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Speaker 1: I was growing up, you know, you had four channels. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: if you're you know, you're lucky enough get cable, you

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Speaker 1: could get CNN and watch news all.

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Speaker 3: Day, right, but there was still a.

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Speaker 1: Fairly common narrative that you would see across the major broadcasts.

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Speaker 1: It was hard to find more what you might call

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Speaker 1: now minority reporting. But with the Internet, you basically get

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Speaker 1: a fragmenting of multiple opinions, some of it appropriate and viable,

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Speaker 1: others of it just sort of conspiracy theory and you.

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Speaker 3: Know, out there sort of views.

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Speaker 1: But the point is we don't really have a solid

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Speaker 1: common knowledge base in the same way that we used to.

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Speaker 1: Do You see that as as sort of influencing and

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Speaker 1: creating these fissures between the generations and then ultimately within

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Speaker 1: the church.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean from a historical perspective, though, we have

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Speaker 2: to understand that bias media has always existed, So it's

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Speaker 2: It's funny, as you know, we talk about, you know,

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Speaker 2: the ads and things that happen during the you know,

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Speaker 2: voting cycle and just despicable things, and then you go

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Speaker 2: back to like some of the first uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: presidential races and the things written from either either candidate

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Speaker 2: or just like oh like, oh okay, We've always been

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Speaker 2: nasty in this way. I don't think you can limit

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Speaker 2: to just uh, you know, consumeristic media in the sense

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Speaker 2: of what we watch on our devices. I think it

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Speaker 2: also has to do with the media we consume, both

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Speaker 2: social media, but also the algorithm is not in our favor.

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Speaker 2: That was particular one of my favorite chapters, right just

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Speaker 2: because I've experienced as a local church pastor and seeing

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Speaker 2: the pain of political polarization today in the in the

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Speaker 2: chapter specifically, in referencing I'm talking about that, I used

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Speaker 2: Tom Sawyer as an illustration to what's happening to today.

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Speaker 2: You know that that famous uh you know moment and

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Speaker 2: that that great book where Tom is having to whitewash

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Speaker 2: the fence as punishment for his actions, and he somehow

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Speaker 2: convinces all the boys in the town to give him

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Speaker 2: gifts and to to wash this fence. H you know,

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Speaker 2: to whitewash this fence, or to paint the fence white.

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Speaker 2: And that's what's happening today. We are are are experiencing,

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Speaker 2: we are being tom sawyered by by politicians and by

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Speaker 2: the media today who make money off sowing fear, in derision.

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Speaker 2: I mean, at the end of the day, negativity is

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Speaker 2: the vast majority of news propagating these stories slanted makes

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Speaker 2: them money, but only makes us more angry. It makes

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Speaker 2: us more divided. And and most of these people, you know,

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Speaker 2: their colleagues, their friends, they say nasty things about each other,

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Speaker 2: and then half of them are going to get a

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Speaker 2: drink together after work, you know, in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 2: But you know, the reality is that all of us

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Speaker 2: are simply going to news outlets and social media outlets

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Speaker 2: that we want to reinforce what we already want to believe.

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Speaker 2: And so those those echo chambers are existing, pulling us

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Speaker 2: further and further apart. We're not seeing is that discourse

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Speaker 2: of coming to the middle of saying yeah, that is

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Speaker 2: one way to look at this. Let's look at the

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Speaker 2: basic facts on it, not your opinion on the facts

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Speaker 2: of the matter. And what we are being modeled on TV.

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Speaker 2: We're simply replicating into our lives. You know, I love sports,

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Speaker 2: but I don't watch sports commentator shows because I get

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Speaker 2: enough screaming from the media of people who aren't listening

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Speaker 2: and talking to each other. But you watch and these

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Speaker 2: guys are you know, guys and girls are doing the

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Speaker 2: same thing. They're arguing amongst themselves, and it's like, this

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Speaker 2: is what's being modeled in our We aren't seeing healthy

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Speaker 2: ways to have conversations with each other. And then we

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Speaker 2: wonder why we can't have it in our families, let

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Speaker 2: alone have it with people that we voluntary, voluntarily go

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Speaker 2: to this thing called the church. And so it's no

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Speaker 2: wonder we are what we are today.

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Speaker 3: So you think that has to do I mean that

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Speaker 3: the situation of the church.

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Speaker 1: I guess there's a part of me that wants it

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Speaker 1: to and I really mean this, there's a part of

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Speaker 1: me that wants it to look like I don't know

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Speaker 1: that it does look like this, but I want it

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Speaker 1: to be a body of believers coming together, united in

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Speaker 1: Christ and allowing that sort of Christ mindedness to condition

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Speaker 1: the way we think about all the stuff around us.

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Speaker 1: And so no matter what, we're drawn back into conformity

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Speaker 1: to Jesus, we're drawn back into trying to glorify God

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Speaker 1: together and that these other disagreements they don't fade away.

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Speaker 1: It's not like none of them are consequential. But ultimately

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Speaker 1: we have to be asking ourselves, is it, you know,

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Speaker 1: is disagreeing about this in the way that we are

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Speaker 1: going to be glorifying to God?

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Speaker 3: And so is there.

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Speaker 1: I guess maybe I'm the question I want to ask

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Speaker 1: is is discipleship the real root of the problem here

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Speaker 1: that we just haven't learned sufficient to live under the

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Speaker 1: authority of Christ such that when we're hearing all these

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Speaker 1: different news stories and we're listening to all these different perspectives,

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Speaker 1: that they're more formative of us than.

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Speaker 3: Christ is.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and yeah, I was sitting here like, well, way

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Speaker 2: to actually talk about like a biblical model what it be,

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Speaker 2: you know, it means to be in community with other people,

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Speaker 2: and yet what we have modeled for us outside in

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Speaker 2: church right now is such a tribalistic perspective of what

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Speaker 2: the church. Yeah. I read an article a couple of

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Speaker 2: years ago for our denomination looking at a study that

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Speaker 2: basically said that, you know, what we need to understand

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Speaker 2: is that your congregants, people in the pews are spending

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Speaker 2: more time with Tucker Carlson than they are in their

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Speaker 2: Bible and in church, and that really ticks some people off.

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Speaker 2: But it was actual study that looked at our media consumption,

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Speaker 2: how much time we spend watching these things versus how

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Speaker 2: much time we spend in spiritual formation or discipleship, and

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Speaker 2: that the numbers are mind boggling, right. And it's not that,

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Speaker 2: you know, to be a good Christian means to have

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Speaker 2: your head in a Bible all day long. But in

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Speaker 2: the same sense, it's it's not teetering in our favor,

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Speaker 2: and ministers get frustrated all the time. They'll perfectly pin

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Speaker 2: a great sermon, you know, in our tradition is typically

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Speaker 2: twenty minutes or so, and it's like you're twenty minutes

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Speaker 2: that is literally a drop in the ocean of what

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Speaker 2: somebody is spending elsewhere. And so I do think it's

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Speaker 2: a discipleship model. But it's a discipleship model in which

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Speaker 2: we need to recognize is that the same old methodology

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Speaker 2: by which we go about discipleship might not be the

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Speaker 2: correct way in doing it. And that's really I would say,

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Speaker 2: at the heart of my book. Yes, it's looking at

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Speaker 2: cognitive social psychology through theological length, but at the end

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Speaker 2: of the day, it's actually looking at a different kind

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Speaker 2: of discipleship where we are equipping people to better understand

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Speaker 2: their mental functioning, their emotional functioning, their physiology physic physiology

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Speaker 2: in order to better be more you know, and more

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Speaker 2: to be more faithful to their following of Christ in

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Speaker 2: order to love their neighbor in a more authentic way.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's where the church is today, where

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Speaker 2: you know, we want to preach responding to many of

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Speaker 2: the issues that are happening our day, and that is important,

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Speaker 2: right Jesus even addresses yeah, uh, you know, contemporary events

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Speaker 2: that are happening. But I think what many ministers are

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Speaker 2: missing out on is the root, the foundation that's going

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Speaker 2: to allow somebody who might be politically swayed one way

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Speaker 2: or the other to hear what you have to say

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Speaker 2: or to actually do something about it. They need to

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Speaker 2: understand at the root is what is compassion, what is empathy,

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Speaker 2: is what is fear? You know? What are all these

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Speaker 2: things that cause us to maybe not truly live into

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Speaker 2: the teachings of Jesus in the way of Jesus we

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Speaker 2: see in the Gospels.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think I'm having a sort

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Speaker 1: of a separate We're doing a series on job and

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Speaker 1: trauma as part of the podcast, and so one of

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Speaker 1: the conversations that's come up there is about a book

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Speaker 1: called The Body Keeps Score, I think is what it's called.

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Speaker 1: If you've ever read that, and you just think, basically,

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Speaker 1: the premise of the book is that once you've experienced trauma,

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Speaker 1: your body tends to hold on to that trauma in

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Speaker 1: physiological ways that maybe are less.

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Speaker 3: Noticeable to you. I think that's a fair sort of

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Speaker 3: pithy summary.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean I think that what you're saying

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Speaker 1: rings true because anxiety, loneliness, some of these physiological effects

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Speaker 1: that we're feeling the the mental, and there's no need

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Speaker 1: to really separate those out necessarily, right, We're all one

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Speaker 1: single bodied person, but we do tend to look at

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Speaker 1: them in these categories. And so as you're seeing these

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Speaker 1: church the church fracturing a bit, what we may not

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Speaker 1: be dealing with is, you know, individual brokenness at at

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Speaker 1: a level that institutional structure can't fix. Is that a

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Speaker 1: Is that sort of a fair assessment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, you add on top of that generational trauma

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Speaker 2: and yeah, familiar trauma. We all you know, I'm a

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Speaker 2: big family systems believer, and you know Bowen talks about that.

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Speaker 2: You know, we have the system by which we function

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Speaker 2: in our life, and that system we carry with us

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Speaker 2: into all the different types of communities that we experience

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Speaker 2: in the church. So the church is experiencing all of

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Speaker 2: our individual trauma and collectively what we've experienced as a whole.

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Speaker 2: It's a mess. It's any wonder that the church can

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Speaker 2: ever be healthy considering that we as human beings are

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Speaker 2: as flawed and as broken as we are. And I

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Speaker 2: mean that mainly from a cognitive sense and an emotional sense,

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Speaker 2: not necessarily a theological sense. We all know that to

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Speaker 2: be a true and so, yeah, that that is our

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Speaker 2: challenge today, right, that that we all carry around so

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Speaker 2: much anxiety and trauma. You were you were citing some

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Speaker 2: of the studies earlier and and and they're looking at

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Speaker 2: right now the physiological toll that all of this is

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Speaker 2: taking on our bodies and the direct correlation between why

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Speaker 2: we're seeing such an increase in high blood pressure and

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Speaker 2: stress related illnesses, cancers that are caused by long term

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Speaker 2: cortisol levels in our bodies. It's it's any one that

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Speaker 2: all of us are bringing this into our faith community.

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Speaker 2: And then collectively we have all these experiences. So maybe

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Speaker 2: your church has gone through a split, maybe you had

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Speaker 2: a church bully, maybe you had a minister who just

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Speaker 2: was a you know, autocratic leader, you know who knows,

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Speaker 2: and then people remember those things and they carry those things,

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Speaker 2: and then it makes us suspicious as we have conversation

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Speaker 2: and try to navigate the next conflict together. And so

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Speaker 2: it's really messy. And so you know, what I'm urging

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Speaker 2: congregations to do is we need to better equip ourselves

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Speaker 2: for the time. I think ultimately, as we equip our

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Speaker 2: people to better understand their own soul, their own psychology,

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Speaker 2: their own emotional state, the healthier they will be. And ultimately,

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Speaker 2: if our individual church members are thriving, then our congregations

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Speaker 2: will thrive. Not in the sense of thriving of all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden we're just you know, growing numerically, but

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Speaker 2: the church in its truest sense it if we're really

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Speaker 2: loving our neighbor as ourselves. We have to love ourselves

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Speaker 2: in an authentic way, and we love our neighbor. You know,

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Speaker 2: ultimately the work of crist is going to thrive through that.

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Speaker 2: But it is complex.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's difficult. I mean I wonder. Yeah again, I've

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Speaker 3: done some work on this.

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Speaker 1: We used to run a campaign called the go Dark,

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Speaker 1: Shine Bright campaign where we were trying to help people

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Speaker 1: understand the influence of social media and cell phone use

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Speaker 1: and all that kind of fun stuff just on their

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Speaker 1: everyday attitudes, right, and so we were suggesting that they

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Speaker 1: take a seven day fast from social media, right, just

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Speaker 1: completely step away from it. Trying to give a practical

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Speaker 1: step for how do you remove an obstacle to spiritual formation,

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Speaker 1: you know, faithful spiritual formation and replace it with something

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Speaker 1: that is going to help your formation into you know,

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Speaker 1: your spiritual formation. How do you see that sort of

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Speaker 1: thing playing out in church is today? You know, there

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Speaker 1: the problem seems relatively clear. What do churches need to

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Speaker 1: pivot to? How do they how do they begin addressing

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Speaker 1: some of these Like we just talked about physiological issues.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I can't really think of the last time

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Speaker 1: I've been at a church that talked about, you know,

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Speaker 1: physiological issues in relation to spiritual formation and how these

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Speaker 1: things may be holding us back. You know the role

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Speaker 1: of sleep in one's life and the necessity of you know,

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Speaker 1: getting a sufficient amount of rest to hold attention in

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Speaker 1: the right areas. You know what I'm saying, like, how

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Speaker 1: do you how do you think about the church positioning

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Speaker 1: itself to really speak on those areas?

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Speaker 2: And yet it's all there in the gospels? Right How

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Speaker 2: many times does Jesus come across someone a physical affirmity

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Speaker 2: and and and he actually does something about it? You know,

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Speaker 2: one of my favorite passages is the passage of the

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Speaker 2: Garriscene demoniac. For most of us, all we've ever heard

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Speaker 2: preached on that is the supernatural implications of it. You know,

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Speaker 2: this is a text where Jesus asks, you know, who

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Speaker 2: are you? And this says religion for many, But the

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Speaker 2: root of that story is actual social, religious, and political isolation.

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Speaker 2: Right here is a person who has been excommuned by

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Speaker 2: their community, chained up, naked among the tombs of the community,

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Speaker 2: and just left out there to waste a way. That

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Speaker 2: man is experiencing so much social isolation, religious rejection, physiological pain,

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Speaker 2: and yet Jesus response to him is to to in

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Speaker 2: a sense, cure him of what was ailing him. And

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Speaker 2: even what was ailing him was his community. And I

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Speaker 2: love that passage because the guy wants to leave and

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Speaker 2: go with Jesus. And wouldn't you, I mean, if if

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Speaker 2: the people you lived with and grew up with rejected

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Speaker 2: you and changed you up naked among the tombs of

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Speaker 2: the dead. But instead Jesus commissions him to go back

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Speaker 2: and to share that. And I think that's part of

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Speaker 2: the challenge of a church today is how do we

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Speaker 2: share stories that are healthy about mental health crisis, about

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Speaker 2: physiological crisis that we are experienced, about chronic illness. All

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Speaker 2: the stories are there within the Gospels. It's just an

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Speaker 2: opportunity for us to share them. We see that modeled

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Speaker 2: in Jesus. You know. Here here is you know, the

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Speaker 2: son of Man, both one God, one hundred percent human.

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Speaker 2: And yet, oh, by the way, that story of going

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Speaker 2: to the garrisone demoniac is the Disciples and Jesus crossing

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Speaker 2: the sea, a great storm comes across them. And what

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Speaker 2: is Jesus doing. He's sleeping in the bow of the boat.

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Speaker 2: If that's to serve enough to itself about rest and renewal,

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Speaker 2: you know, And so I think I think it's an

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Speaker 2: opportunity versus a detriment. It's an opportunity for men and

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Speaker 2: congregational leaders to think deeply, to think that the Gospel

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Speaker 2: isn't just for our spiritual health, but it's for our

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Speaker 2: full health, and how do we begin to reread the

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Speaker 2: Gospels through that lens. There's an abundance of discipleship opportunities

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Speaker 2: that I think are there that we can grow with.

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Speaker 3: I've had a.

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Speaker 1: I mean, as I've thought through these issues, and I

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Speaker 1: haven't really looked at the data on.

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Speaker 3: Church.

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Speaker 1: I suppose church not splits, but this sort of tension

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Speaker 1: within the church. I've read some of the work on

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Speaker 1: pastors wanting to leave their congregations. I've read some of

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Speaker 1: the work on pastors being concerned with political disagreements within

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Speaker 1: their congregations. And then I think the Barna Church Thriving

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Speaker 1: stuff is kind of interesting. They do address some of

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Speaker 1: these major issues. What do you think are the obstacles

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Speaker 1: as we see data sort of rolling in, what are

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Speaker 1: the major obstacles to churches making this switch and beginning

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Speaker 1: to start the process which will probably be a fairly

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Speaker 1: long road of capturing that aspect of the Gospels that

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Speaker 1: you're talking about and actually helping people understand that how

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Speaker 1: they treat their bodies in a the rest of the

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Speaker 1: week is actually going to condition their ability to be

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Speaker 1: discipled overall.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd have to look at some research on this,

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Speaker 2: but just kind of speaking, you know, off the cuff,

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Speaker 2: I think it's actually in the favor of the church

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Speaker 2: because you look at the self help industry. You know,

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Speaker 2: the number of self help books that are published a year,

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Speaker 2: the amount of time that people invest into their physical health,

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Speaker 2: you know, the numbers of people investing in therapy personally

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Speaker 2: are on the rise. I think it's in favor of

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Speaker 2: the church, and I think, honestly, if the churches may

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Speaker 2: be honest with itself, people used to go to the

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Speaker 2: church because the church was the place where they found

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Speaker 2: everything they needed in their life. The church was quite

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Speaker 2: literally the center of our communities. And for many, the

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Speaker 2: church isn't relevant anymore. And why isn't relevant Because it's

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Speaker 2: not asking the questions that are relevant to my life.

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Speaker 2: It's not addressing the things that I feel are deeply

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Speaker 2: rooted in who I am, the struggles that I have.

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Speaker 2: And so I think if the church is honest, it

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Speaker 2: would see this as an incredible opportunity to begin to

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Speaker 2: talk about things that really matter to people. And for some,

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Speaker 2: because you're not accustomed to maybe talking about these things,

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Speaker 2: it feels like you're asking about talking setting the Gospel

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Speaker 2: to the side. And I just shared a few examples

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Speaker 2: of how in no way is it it's actually elevating

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Speaker 2: the Gospel in our lives. So I think it's an

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Speaker 2: incredible opportunity. I think the church would find that people

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Speaker 2: actually would feel the churches relevant their life. The church

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Speaker 2: is actually talking about things that matter, that are transforming

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Speaker 2: who I am, the struggles that I have, the struggles

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Speaker 2: that are taking place in my family. For many churches,

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Speaker 2: they want to avoid this because they think these issues

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Speaker 2: are contentious or raise even bigger issues. And if they're

435
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: not coming to the church for the answers, they're going

436
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 2: to go somewhere else, right, And so why not capitalize

437
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 2: on the opportunity of now.

438
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: When you think about that, you know, I mean, I

439
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 1: think about my kids, right. I have a twenty year

440
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: old son. I don't know whether he would say he

441
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 1: ever found a place where he quote unquote belongs in

442
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: the church right where.

443
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 3: He really fit.

444
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: He's kind of a history and theology nerd, which I

445
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: can relate to and you kind of think, well, that

446
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: would make sense in the church, right, But it doesn't always.

447
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: And so I think there's a sense in which I

448
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: guess I'm wondering as as the next generation comes up,

449
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 1: I guess my concern would be that some of the

450
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 1: some of what has become normal in our congregations doesn't

451
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: feel normal to the next generation. It feels odd and

452
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: unstructured and maybe even duplicitous or contradictory. And so how

453
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 1: can elder boards, pastors, however, the church is structured congregations.

454
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: That seems to me to require significant change within a

455
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 1: congregation to be accommodating of a group of individuals who

456
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: maybe are feeling the same sorts of discomforts with the church.

457
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: How do you navigate that our church's identity is X,

458
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: but now we need to switch over to being hy.

459
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: Well, we know how people do it?

460
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 3: And is that even a problem? Like is that?

461
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: You know?

462
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 3: Maybe that's the first but is that Yeah?

463
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 2: I would label that as generational gaps, and they exist

464
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 2: in our churches. You know, depending on your faith expression,

465
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 2: you could have whole generations missing from your congregation altogether.

466
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: I'll give you an example. I'm afforded the opportunity with

467
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 2: my role that I get to visit churches on a

468
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 2: Sunday morning. And in the last four years, I visited

469
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 2: a congregation that no knew that they did not have

470
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 2: any children in their church, right, and yet they still

471
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 2: did a children's sermon every Sunday morning in worship, and

472
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: I thought, who is this for? But at the same time,

473
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,479
Speaker 2: it was it was an honest expression of what that

474
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 2: church was dealing with, which was this was a model

475
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: of how they did children's minister in the past. No

476
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 2: one quite literally connected their children to this congregation, and

477
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: yet they're still doing the same old thing for whatever reason. Right, Yeah,

478
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 2: so generational gaps doing exists within our congregations, and they're

479
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: very real, and the church needs to wake up to

480
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 2: it today. However, you know, the idea of all of

481
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 2: a sudden just doing whatever you think the next generation

482
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 2: wants is also a full hardy path to go on,

483
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: and so I think it begins in the most simplistic

484
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: sense of cultivating inner generational opportunities for connection and conversation

485
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 2: within your church. You know, the most basic thing you

486
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: can do if your church gathers on Sunday morning, if

487
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 2: you have some sort of spiritual formation or discipleship hour.

488
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: Bring everybody together, ask everybody to leave their small groups,

489
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 2: their Sunday school classes, whatever your tradition might be. Bring

490
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 2: them all into a gathering place, you know, intentionally place

491
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: people at different tables to diversify who's at that table,

492
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 2: and cultivate opportunities for people to get to know each other,

493
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: for people to learn each other's stories. That is the

494
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 2: slow work of recognition from a congregation side, from the

495
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: ground up, of helping people understand that we do have differences,

496
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 2: that some generations do have different perspectives, but not completely

497
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 2: different and maybe just just one degree off. I think

498
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: that's one of the most basic things that a congregation

499
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: can do. The next level up, I would say, is

500
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 2: you need to begin to intentionally invite the younger generation

501
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 2: into leadership. Now, we have that mentality in the church

502
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,959
Speaker 2: and it's pervasive in every type of organization of you

503
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: need to waste your time, you need to earn your

504
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 2: key this generation. And I'm saying millennials and younger basically

505
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: saying that's fine, we'll go somewhere else if you don't

506
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: want us to be a part of leadership. Now, if

507
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: you don't want us to be a part of real

508
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 2: transformation in this organization. Now we'll just leave. So cultivating

509
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 2: diverse opportunities with intergenerational expressions within your leadership is ultimately

510
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 2: going to bring about the long term change that's healthy

511
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: for your congregations. So those are just two practical things

512
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 2: I think church is going to do. But generational issues

513
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 2: are real and they are fighting congregations. And I write

514
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 2: about this. You can really point to about five really

515
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,959
Speaker 2: core divisional issues among generations, but there are so so

516
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 2: many more than that that we need to pay attention to.

517
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: What are a couple of those, I mean, just out

518
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: of curiosities. I'm not sure I have them clear in

519
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: my head. I have ideas, but they may be completely wrong.

520
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, no no. So I mean, first of all, politics,

521
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 2: I mean, you look at the division among the generations

522
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: when it comes to their political affiliation, and those things

523
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: alone are going to sift into our church. Technology is

524
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: another tremendous thing, So I write about in the book,

525
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 2: talk about my papa who passed away in twenty eleven,

526
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 2: born in the Great Depression and yet lived at some

527
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 2: point in the same time as you know, at that

528
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: time it would have been kids who were watching Sophia

529
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,239
Speaker 2: the first Today it would be like Bluey right. You know,

530
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 2: if you think about the the technological transformation that that

531
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: man experienced in his life alone, and that technology divides us,

532
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: the usage of technology, the lack of access to technology.

533
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 2: So those are some of the big economics and economic perspectives,

534
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 2: you know, and assumptions about those generations. To give you

535
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: an example, looked at a study that found that basically,

536
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 2: if you were to purchase this particular home in the

537
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 2: nineteen sixties, it would cost you roughly ten thousand dollars.

538
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 2: That same house today would cost over a million dollars.

539
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 2: And those economic challenges that are faced across generation are

540
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 2: very real. So you have, you know, an older generation

541
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: who's been tithing, you know, dedicated to that, and you

542
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: have a younger generation who is limited in their capacity

543
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: to give to the church, and the assumptions that take

544
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 2: place there. So those are just a few of the

545
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: real critical issues that are at heart within our generational gaps.

546
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 3: That's really helpful.

547
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: Question that sort of prompts for me is do you

548
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: think that the younger generations have a different notion of

549
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: the prototypical Jesus in their heads. And so I'm kind

550
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: of drawn on social identity theory here. But the idea

551
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: is that you you know, we tend to have within

552
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: our society sort of you know, we could speak of,

553
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: you know, a true competitor, right, let's say in the

554
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: sport of basketball or football, and we all have sort

555
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: of this prototypical image that comes up a set of

556
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: fuzzy characteristics we could point to and go, yeah, that

557
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: person was a true competitor, right, they were hard, nos.

558
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 3: They did it, you know.

559
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: And it strikes me that we could do something very

560
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: similar with Jesus, and maybe we have. Is that the

561
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: Jesus that we tend to see as prototypical as from

562
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: a more stable generation that had different economic opportunity, that

563
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: had different you know, political stability and instability. That's a

564
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: different sort of prototypical Jesus than we have for a

565
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,959
Speaker 1: generation that is in a you know, a completely different

566
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: economic situation, a completely different technological world, and completely different

567
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: political stability and stability mix.

568
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 3: Does that ring true to you at all?

569
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 2: Oh?

570
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah.

571
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 2: My friend Zach Hunt every year does the March Madness

572
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 2: brackets around the different expressions of Jesus in America, All

573
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 2: of us intergenerationally within our own generation have these different

574
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: expressions of who Jesus is. You know, I straddle Gen

575
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: X and Millennials, and you know, my generation is known

576
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: around this concept of moralistic, therapeutic deism. That often the

577
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: ways that we shave Jesus is around that particular perspective.

578
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 2: And so you know, that's the challenge. But that is

579
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 2: that is the intentionality, and that is the worth of

580
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: cross generational connections that we begin to understand. You know,

581
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 2: you think about the Jesus that would have shaped my

582
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 2: Mema and Papa born in the Great Depression, right, you

583
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 2: understand why, you know, a generation born where they literally

584
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 2: didn't have two pennies to rup together. You know, my

585
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 2: mema talked about that she used to have to stuff

586
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 2: newspapers into the ends of her shoes until her parents

587
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,439
Speaker 2: could afford a new pair of shoes for her years

588
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 2: down the road because of the holes in her shoes. Right, Yeah,

589
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 2: that generation understanding Jesus and looking at the life to

590
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 2: come was such an important critical thing, right because the

591
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 2: life right now really sucked.

592
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 3: Right.

593
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 2: And then imagine the Jesus that people would have experienced

594
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: during the torment of World War two. So yes, every generation,

595
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 2: every context is shaped by the circumstances that have happened.

596
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 2: We can't help that. We're human beings. We see Christ

597
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 2: in that light. But ultimately that's why the Church needs

598
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 2: to be a heterogeneous community and which we have multi generations,

599
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: multi ethnicities, multi expressions that are taking place in it

600
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 2: for us to have a more robust and fuller perspective

601
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: of who Jesus is and understanding that we will never

602
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: truly fully understand, you know, who the Son of God is,

603
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 2: who the God of the universe is. Let alone and

604
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 2: allow that to sit in awe and wonder versus allowing

605
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 2: our conceptualization are acutely defined Jesus that we can put

606
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 2: into a box, shape the way that we do church,

607
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 2: shape the way that we view other people. And really

608
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 2: that's at the heart of kind of what I'm trying

609
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 2: to do here is to help people understand we all

610
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 2: have implicit and explicit bias. We all have things that

611
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 2: shape the way that we see the world, the way

612
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 2: that we see ourselves, and the more that we can

613
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: check that and hear from someone else, it broadens our perspectives.

614
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 2: It makes us better human beings. At the end of

615
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 2: the day.

616
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a posture almost that we have to understand

617
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: that our view of Christ is incomplete, and we have

618
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: to resist the temptation to close off other perspectives simply

619
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: because they disagree with ours. We've got to learn to

620
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: sort of evaluate some of those, take them in and

621
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,399
Speaker 1: recognize that the next generation, the next person next to us,

622
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 1: may very well be able to add something to our

623
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: understanding of Christ and to our faith that is very important,

624
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: very biblical, very theologically sound. It's just that within our experience,

625
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: it was a blind spot for us, and now someone

626
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: else is opening that up to us.

627
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 2: Sounds like you're talking about like humility. I can't remember

628
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 2: that's something we're like call to or like or is

629
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 2: there a moment in the Gospels in which Jesus asked

630
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 2: the disciples, who do you say that I am? And

631
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 2: they keep talking about everybody's different perspectives of who he

632
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 2: might be. It's like, that's what I love about scripture.

633
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 2: That's what I love is that we could always go

634
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 2: back to it understand Oh wait, like this has happened before.

635
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 2: How can we learn from this circumstance and what was

636
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 2: happening in this moment. Uh yeah, I think it's an

637
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 2: incredible moment in the church is history. I think we're

638
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 2: at an existential cross erd is not in the sense

639
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 2: of the church is not going to survive, but the

640
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 2: institution that is the Church of the twentieth and twenty

641
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 2: first century is at a place of radical transformation. And

642
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 2: it's scary. It is scary. But at the end of

643
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 2: the day, what we're talking about is being more faithful

644
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 2: to our calling to follow Christ and to love our

645
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 2: neighbor as ourselves. And it's going to look different, it will,

646
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 2: and it's going to require a different set of skills

647
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 2: and perspectives from us. But that is the invitation of

648
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: Jesus at the end of the day, right, Jesus used

649
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 2: the word that oftentimes has been used to shake the

650
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 2: Bible at people from a judgmental perspective is the word repentance.

651
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 2: But that word, the Greek word, actually means change your

652
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 2: way of thinking and living. And so it's a continual,

653
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 2: ongoing process that Christ is inviting us into to change

654
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 2: our way of thinking and living. And so that's why

655
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 2: I feel like the work that I've invested in, you know,

656
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 2: it's not just about this book. I get to do

657
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 2: this stuff, but you know, throughout the week and work

658
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 2: with congregations around these things that at the end of

659
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 2: the day, I think we have an opportunity to be

660
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 2: more faithful to our calling to follow Christ and to

661
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 2: transform our minds so that they might be renewed, so

662
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 2: that we might have a better understanding of who God

663
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 2: is and what God is calling us to in this world.

664
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 1: You mentioned humility, and I agree. I think humility is

665
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: a necessity. I think sometimes our humility, or our lack thereof,

666
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: manifests itself in different ways. And I'm wondering if you

667
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 1: see this in congregations where there is a spirit of

668
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: humility there that's being blocked a bit by defensiveness, this

669
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: sort of desire not to change, or concern that changing

670
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 1: is somehow going to create a distorted gospel or a

671
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 1: you know, limit our faithfulness in some way. How big

672
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: of an issue is that actually when you work with congregations.

673
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've had opportunity to talk about this a

674
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 2: couple of times with some folks. But you know, cognitive

675
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,919
Speaker 2: psychologists are looking at why rightness is such a big

676
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 2: issue right now, and what they believe is that our

677
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 2: desire to be right is triggering a survival mechanism in

678
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 2: our brain. So quite literally, it feels like to take

679
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 2: a stance on something to express what you need. If

680
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 2: you don't, it means the difference between life and death.

681
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: That the very breath from your lungs could be taken

682
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 2: from you if if you are not heard or if

683
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: you change your mind on something. Yeah, that's scary because

684
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 2: you know, we live in a world where right now,

685
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 2: I can't tell you the last time I heard somebody

686
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 2: actually publicly say I was wrong and not give an

687
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 2: excuse of why they were wrong. Like, take more example,

688
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 2: I'll go off the cuff here. Kanye West like bought

689
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 2: an ad and wrote in the Wall Street Journal to

690
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 2: apologize for his anti Semitic remarks that he made in

691
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 2: the last couple of years, but then followed it up

692
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 2: with an excuse that he credited to a brain injury

693
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 2: he had ever twenty five years ago. And it's like,

694
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 2: just say I'm sorry, I was wrong. I should have

695
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 2: done this stop like full stop right. But this is

696
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 2: what's being modeled to us in our world today is

697
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 2: we we always have to be right, and so if

698
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 2: we're always desired to be right, and that happens across

699
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 2: the spectrum from from conservative all the way to progressive.

700
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 3: Right, you know.

701
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: What's going to happen in our congregations. So humility of

702
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 2: saying maybe I don't know it all, or maybe this

703
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 2: thing that I hold tightly that I believe to be

704
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: an essential thing of my faith is maybe a non

705
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: essential thing that I have conflated. And people ask, well,

706
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 2: then what is the essentials? Actually you have some essentials, right,

707
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 2: you can go to the apostle Nicene Creed that has

708
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 2: stood the test of time, and these are the critical

709
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: essential things about our faith. Everything else is left up

710
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 2: to interpretation. Right. You look at the levitical laws you have,

711
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 2: you know, dozens and dozens of laws, but then the

712
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 2: time you get to Jesus, you have hundreds upon hundreds

713
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 2: of commentaries on these laws. It's all everybody's perspectives and opinions.

714
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 2: And so humility is hard because we want to be

715
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 2: right about God. But I think God is more gray

716
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 2: than we give God credit for.

717
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's always interesting to me. I agree on the

718
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: Nicying Creed. It's like you have these sort of broader

719
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 1: God guardrails and it is relatively broad I mean, you

720
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:24,839
Speaker 1: don't get into you know, I mean, the Nicing Creed

721
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: could fit on one page. It's not like it's a

722
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: you know, an extremely long document. Obviously there's a lot

723
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 1: of history behind it. But you also have things like

724
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,479
Speaker 1: Romans twelve ten, which seems pretty straightforward to me, right

725
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: out do one another in showing honor. It's it's unqualified,

726
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: it sits right there.

727
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 3: You know.

728
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 1: It's obviously needs to be situated under a love for

729
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: God and an understanding of how to honor another.

730
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 3: But at the same time, it's still pretty clear.

731
00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: It seems like a non essent, you know, a pretty

732
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: essential element of what it is that we do. And

733
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 1: so often it feels like what we're trying to do

734
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: is be right as opposed to really try to honor another.

735
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: And that gives us, in my estimation, you know, sort

736
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 1: of now I realized it's a little simple story. But

737
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: it shortens the amount of time we're willing to give

738
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: people to come around. It limits our patience of how

739
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: we're going to bear one another's burdens. It just gives

740
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: us a shortened time span before we were willing to

741
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: write someone off. And I think there's there's some sort

742
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 1: of dynamic there that I'd be interested just to get

743
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 1: your take on how does time sort of play into this,

744
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: Like let me frame it one more way than all

745
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 1: the answer. But like I've talked to some people who

746
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: are deconstructing, like that whole fad that went through the deconstruction,

747
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: questioning the faith, all that kind of good stuff, And

748
00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: part of their complaints were people would listen for a

749
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: time and then they expected me just to correct and

750
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 1: and it's like maybe it just takes more time.

751
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 3: So I don't know.

752
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: I'm interested to hear your thoughts on time and patience

753
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 1: and honoring one how does that all work together?

754
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 2: I mean, faith is a lifelong journey. We're consting the

755
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 2: process of renewal and transformation, and I think we one

756
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 2: of the challenges we have is many of us were

757
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 2: handed a gospel that focused on a finite moment of

758
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 2: coming to faith, right, and then we forgot that everything

759
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 2: after that. You know, the same generation who believes that

760
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 2: the invitation of Jesus is to ask Jesus into your

761
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 2: heart right, which is not in scripture. So you know,

762
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 2: Jesus says, come follow me in this ongoing process, right,

763
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 2: And so you know that you talk about a generational divibe,

764
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 2: but also the logical divide in which we when we

765
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 2: understand salvation to be a moment and time, that might

766
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 2: limit your perspective of the ongoing process of being transformed

767
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 2: in our life.

768
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 3: Right.

769
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 2: And I think we can look to the example of

770
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: the disciples. You know, Jesus had, you know, dozens of

771
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 2: dozens of disciples, but he had these twelve, right, that

772
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: he invested more time into. These are the people that

773
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 2: eight meals with him, that slept in the same place

774
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 2: as him, that washington perform miracles for three years. They

775
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 2: journeyed with him, and yet when given the opportunity to

776
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 2: faithfully live into his ways, most of them fell flat

777
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,919
Speaker 2: on their face. Right. How many times did Jesus talk

778
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 2: about being a peacemaker, How many times did Jesus talk

779
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 2: about responding to hatred with love? And yet who is

780
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 2: it Peter that pulls out a sword when Jesus is

781
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 2: being arrested and it cuts a dude's a year off? Right,

782
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 2: So we see that even the very people who walked

783
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 2: with Jesus still didn't get it right, even though they

784
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 2: witnessed it. And so I think we go back to

785
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 2: humility and understanding that spiritual formation discipleship had a lifelong process,

786
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: and we want people to come to a place that

787
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 2: helps us understand. I think sometimes that we don't want

788
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,399
Speaker 2: to truly invest in people's lives because we only want

789
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 2: to hear them for a limited amount of time before

790
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 2: we move on to our next thing, and so I

791
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 2: think our availability is a challenge to that. But ultimately,

792
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 2: I think it's a theological shift that has to take

793
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 2: place of understanding. This stuff just takes time. You know,

794
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 2: Deconstruction has always existed there, it's just the terminology we've

795
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 2: been using for it as of late, right, that people

796
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: have shed themselves of a limited theological perspective and transformed

797
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 2: themselves into something different. I mean, we wouldn't have the

798
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 2: Free Church today if if Martin Luther didn't say, among

799
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 2: many many other reformers, say hold on a second, I've

800
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,919
Speaker 2: got I've got some issues with what we're doing here, right,

801
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 2: But that's the danger, right, when do we become the

802
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 2: religious you know, zelots and the Sadducees, who are who

803
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 2: are you know putting their stakes in the ground to

804
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 2: say this is who God is, this is how things work,

805
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 2: and how things function. Yeah, is Jesus not knocking you know,

806
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 2: down those things, turning over the tables to say this

807
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 2: is not what you think it is. This is an

808
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 2: ongoing process.

809
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: Well, man, I appreciate this work. Maybe we just leave

810
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: the audience with one sort of tip, you know, if

811
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 1: your church is struggling with this, aside from buying your

812
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: book right and kind of understanding what's going on here.

813
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: And I mean, I really mean that. It's not just

814
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: a you know, product endorsement. It's like, we have to

815
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: be informed about what the dynamics are they're influencing this

816
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: so that we can start pressing into them. If we

817
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: just say there's a problem here, we don't really have

818
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 1: a solution for it.

819
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 3: So we have to understand some of the dynamics that

820
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 3: are going on here. But what would.

821
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 1: You you know, we talked a little bit about the

822
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: sort of intergenerational dialogues. If a church really wanted to

823
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: get that started, what sort of what would you suggest?

824
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: Just knowing how churches sort of think my experience with churches,

825
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 1: it's like, well, do I schedule this on a Saturday?

826
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: Do I put together a planning committee?

827
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

828
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: Like you can You've probably experienced that spiral way more

829
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: than I have. So how would you recommend churches sort

830
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: of move toward this sort of intergenerational dialogue as a

831
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: practical stuff.

832
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of my favorite authors, Henry now and just incredible.

833
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 2: He talks about that very thing that it's quote say forbadim,

834
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 2: but he talks about that more and more. The desire

835
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:49,280
Speaker 2: grows within him to walk with people, to share meals

836
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 2: with people, to sit down and to hear people's stories.

837
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 2: And he talks about then the challenges that we then

838
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 2: have to put a committee together in a meeting together,

839
00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 2: and that happen right, you know, but ultimately it is

840
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 2: you know, he wonders if not the first thing to

841
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 2: do is to just be with people and to simply

842
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 2: truly love them. And so I would say that is

843
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 2: the most simple and complex thing that churches can do.

844
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 2: And I go to Acts chapter two. I'm say start

845
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 2: with the Bible, which is you see Acts chapter two

846
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 2: forty two through forty seven where you see this early

847
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 2: expression of the church. Yes they are worshiping together, Yes

848
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 2: they are doing Bible study, their former Bible study discipleship together,

849
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 2: but also says they're breaking bread in each other's homes.

850
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 2: They're supporting each other's businesses. People are selling land and

851
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 2: possessions in order to get to the needs of those

852
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 2: that are happening around them. So, you know what I

853
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 2: would say to the church today is the answer is

854
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: not more worship and more Bible study. But it's not

855
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,919
Speaker 2: to not do those things. It's to cultivate simple opportunities

856
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 2: to just be present with each other. If you need

857
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 2: to pray at the beginning, pray at the beginning to

858
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,479
Speaker 2: ask the Lord to bless the time. But then don't

859
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 2: be obsessed with thinking that we need to crack open

860
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 2: scripture in that like doing that. You know, if we

861
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 2: all see things differently, we're all going to argue over

862
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 2: whe the scripture says to start with some simple questions.

863
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: What's your favorite ice cream? Tell me about what your

864
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 2: favorite toy was when you were, you know, eight years old.

865
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,399
Speaker 2: I do this work with congregations where we invite them

866
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 2: together to come together with the agenda of just only

867
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 2: spending time together and cultivating some conversations that really begin

868
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 2: to build a mutual sense of trust and respect for

869
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 2: each other, which is the bedrock foundation of us navigating

870
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 2: anything difficult together. My favorite chapter in the book to

871
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 2: write was that churches that play together stay together. And

872
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 2: it's looking at the study that found that families that

873
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 2: often incorporate more play into their lives together are the

874
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 2: healthiest families that are out there, and I've found the

875
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 2: same to be true for congregations. I think we have

876
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 2: lost a sense of what joy and amusement is in

877
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 2: together and community. I think we need to find that again,

878
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 2: and finding that together again, we can then have the

879
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 2: energy and that synergy to begin to navigate some of

880
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:07,800
Speaker 2: these challenges.

881
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: Great advice. Andy, really appreciate that the book is going

882
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: to be out. By the time this episode airs, your

883
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: book will have released, So i'd encourage listeners to go

884
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: check out Mending the Fracturing Church by Andrew R.

885
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 3: Hale. You can find it on Amazon, I'm sure, and

886
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 3: I'll put a link to the pages that I have

887
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 3: in the show notes so you all can go get this.

888
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 3: I think it's just crucial for the church. We need

889
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 3: the church. The church is sort of the hope of

890
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 3: the world.

891
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: It's not going to go anywhere, but I think it

892
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: can have healthier or sicker versions of itself, sort of

893
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: manifesting the witness of Christ and.

894
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:46,879
Speaker 3: We really want to be.

895
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: Giving a healthy, robust testimony for Jesus, and so just

896
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: encourage you to.

897
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 3: Check this out.

898
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 1: Check out Andrew's website as well Andrew Hale dot com

899
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: for other resources there, and check out the podcast CBF Conversations.

900
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 3: It's on Apple as well.

901
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: So Andy, thanks a lot for being here man, and

902
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,439
Speaker 1: really appreciate the work you're doing. Appreciate your thoughts here

903
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 1: and hope it does really well.

904
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 2: Thank you, James, I enjoyed talk with you.

905
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:17,760
Speaker 1: All Right, everybody, we'll catch you on the next episode

906
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: of Thinking Christian.

907
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 3: Take care,