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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking

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Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world

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Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that

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Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer and I'm

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Speaker 1: joined again by Dr. Ashish Varma. For those of you

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Speaker 1: who aren't watching, I'm not in the studio today and

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Speaker 1: so if my audio sounds a little bit strange, it's

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Speaker 1: because I don't have my regular nice little mic set up.

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Speaker 1: I am using a wonderful pair of wireless headphones to

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Speaker 1: do this episode. So hopefully everything will come out okay.

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Speaker 1: But today we are going to be talking a little

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Speaker 1: bit about another aspect of the diagnosis that Ashish and

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Speaker 1: I have talked about previously in a previous episode. And

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Speaker 1: this one is called fragmentation. And what we mean by

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Speaker 1: fragmentation is really when Christians begin to pull apart, not

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Speaker 1: because one group has become heretical or not because one

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Speaker 1: group has done something that's inappropriate. there are appropriate times

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Speaker 1: for such divisions. But in this case, what we're really

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Speaker 1: looking at is the way that legitimate doctrinal positions or

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Speaker 1: institutions or traditions or practices or people may end up

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Speaker 1: driving us apart. And so we're really thinking about fragmentation

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Speaker 1: of faithful believers from one another simply on the basis

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Speaker 1: of something like a different idiom of expression as opposed

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Speaker 1: to a theological error. And so that's what we're going

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Speaker 1: to be diving into today. Biblically, you know, she's not

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Speaker 1: talked about a number of different things. Bible passages where

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Speaker 1: we might go to find something like this. Um, first

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Speaker 1: Corinthians one came to mind, you know, I follow Paul,

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Speaker 1: I follow Apollos. Um, she brought up, uh, Colossians, the

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Speaker 1: book of Colossians and some of the doctrinal controversies there. Um,

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Speaker 1: we could obviously go to Romans 14 and 15, but

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Speaker 1: it almost feels like, um, part of what we're going

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Speaker 1: to end up doing is we're going to end up

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Speaker 1: thinking through church history an awful lot more today than

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Speaker 1: maybe going to specific biblical passages and really rooting this

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Speaker 1: principle in a specific biblical example, because sociologically, this seems

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Speaker 1: to have happened to the church over time, whereas biblically,

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Speaker 1: the divisions aren't necessarily exactly what we're talking about today.

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Speaker 1: That be fair in your mind, Ashish?

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Speaker 2: I think so, yeah. I think church history is a

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Speaker 2: right place to begin to understand some of the pressures

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Speaker 2: we feel today to divide on very neat lines, but

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Speaker 2: then also understand how the fragmentation doesn't just happen between

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Speaker 2: larger movements, such as the Roman Catholics and the Baptists,

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Speaker 2: but also then within Roman Catholics and Baptists and Lutherans

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Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. And I think along

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Speaker 2: with that, you have Maybe just a simple human reality.

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Speaker 2: Probably not a human reality that we'd say exists in

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Speaker 2: its best sense pre-fall. But certainly in humanity as we

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Speaker 2: know it, there has been a long tendency, whether Christian

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Speaker 2: or not, to begin to see very precise lines of

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Speaker 2: exclusion based upon some set of circumstances. It could be

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Speaker 2: something as simple as, we are the people of here,

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Speaker 2: and you are not. I think about many of the

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Speaker 2: groups of First Nations peoples, their names for themselves, such

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Speaker 2: as the people that we call the Apaches today, their

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Speaker 2: names for themselves were the people, hard stop. That's the

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Speaker 2: rough translation. And their neighboring people who, by the way,

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Speaker 2: looked more or less like them. So they're not thinking

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Speaker 2: in racial terms the way that we do today of

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Speaker 2: looks like me, doesn't look like me. But their neighbors

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Speaker 2: also saw themselves as the people. But when looking at

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Speaker 2: each other, they were both not the people. And that's

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Speaker 2: not a First Nations thing alone. You can go anywhere

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Speaker 2: in the world. You have this tendency to begin to

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Speaker 2: group to the exclusion of other people. And the Christian

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Speaker 2: phenomena starts to do that around ideas, which is something

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Speaker 2: I think we want to talk about that's interesting and

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Speaker 2: in some ways unique.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll share this story just to kind of illustrate

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Speaker 1: that I think the point we're getting to. But I

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Speaker 1: had applied for a job with the Southern Denomination Association

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Speaker 1: probably in 2005 now. So, I mean, it's been forever ago.

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Speaker 1: And it happened to be in my hometown, my home county.

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Speaker 1: And I was not Southern Baptist at the time. I

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Speaker 1: knew one of the pastors of the church down there.

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Speaker 1: He knew what I was doing as far as theological school.

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Speaker 1: We talked. He felt really comfortable with me. And so

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Speaker 1: I applied for this position. I was going through the

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Speaker 1: interview process, but I was not Southern Baptist. I'd made

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Speaker 1: the decision not to go to a Southern Baptist church

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Speaker 1: where I was living and join that church for a

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Speaker 1: month so that I could just have the denominational label

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Speaker 1: and then go apply for this position. I just kind

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Speaker 1: of figured, well, If there's doctrinal agreement, if there's an

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Speaker 1: understanding that I align with the denomination, then obviously when

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Speaker 1: I come down and I'm working for the Southern Baptist Church,

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Speaker 1: I would be a member of the Southern Baptist Church.

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Speaker 1: And at the time, I thought that seemed reasonable. But

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Speaker 1: when I got to this bigger association meeting where all

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Speaker 1: these different pastors and delegates from the various congregations were there,

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Speaker 1: one of the pastors stood up and said something to

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Speaker 1: the effect of, I don't want anyone in this position

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Speaker 1: who would not bleed for the Southern Baptist faith. And

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Speaker 1: he said it just like that, that last part, bleed

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Speaker 1: for the Southern Baptist faith was the quote. And I

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Speaker 1: remember sort of thinking and processing in that moment, number one,

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Speaker 1: I'm probably not going to get this job because his

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Speaker 1: statement was followed by a number of amens. But the

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Speaker 1: second part was, I was really That was the first

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Speaker 1: time I'd ever really been confronted with someone who is

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Speaker 1: dividing the body of Christ in this way. That there

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Speaker 1: was something so distinct, not culturally about Southern Baptists, but

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Speaker 1: about the Southern Baptist faith that would create a separation

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Speaker 1: where I was an outsider as a Christian, as someone

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Speaker 1: who'd gone to conservative schools. I'd gone to Moody and

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Speaker 1: Wheaton at that time, was pursuing, getting ready to pursue

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Speaker 1: my PhD at Trinity. These are squarely evangelical institutions. These

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Speaker 1: are not, you know, liberal in any sense. You know,

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Speaker 1: I was not liberal in any sense. And yet I

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Speaker 1: was excluded in that moment. And so I would say

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Speaker 1: it wasn't about me not getting the job. Right. Plenty

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Speaker 1: of reasons to say, hey, this guy doesn't understand the

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Speaker 1: Southern Baptist culture. He doesn't you know, he doesn't go

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Speaker 1: to a Southern Baptist church. We'd really like somebody who

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Speaker 1: understands these things. So, you know, because I was going

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Speaker 1: to be working across the different churches. That would have

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Speaker 1: made sense to me. But the believing for Southern Baptist

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Speaker 1: faith made no sense to me. I still don't fully

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Speaker 1: grasp what the Southern Baptist faith is in distinction to,

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Speaker 1: let's say, the Missouri Synod Lutheran faith or the Presbyterian

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Speaker 1: Church USA faith or the non-denominational Bible Church faith. Those

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Speaker 1: are all the same faith to me. There is only

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Speaker 1: one faith. I understand there's doctrinal distinctions, but to me,

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Speaker 1: those doctrinal distinctions aren't in, shouldn't be divisive in the

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Speaker 1: way that it ended up being in that case. And

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Speaker 1: so hopefully that illustrates a little bit of what we're

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Speaker 1: trying to get at and how these things can sort

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Speaker 1: of create identities on their own, where you have an

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Speaker 1: in-group and an out-group. And so what ends up happening

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Speaker 1: is that you're not just, um, judged less fit than

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Speaker 1: someone else for a job, you're actually recognized as an

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Speaker 1: alien and stranger who does not belong within this community,

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Speaker 1: this body of believers. You're now excluded and outside of that.

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Speaker 1: So like I said, hopefully that gives people a little

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Speaker 1: bit of an illustration of what we're talking about here,

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Speaker 1: that sort of fragmentation of the body of Christ where

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Speaker 1: regardless of doctrinal agreement, my lack of affiliation with the

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Speaker 1: Southern Baptist Church was really the problem. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And to be clear, I think you and I would

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Speaker 2: agree that there is a value to having certain lines.

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Speaker 1: Sure, sure.

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Speaker 2: And there might even be a value to having certain

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Speaker 2: positions that are holding up those lines on a very

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Speaker 2: narrow basis. I think of a friend of mine who

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Speaker 2: taught at a specifically denominational school for many years. And

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Speaker 2: we had a conversation that I think we came at

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Speaker 2: it from different angles. My frustration with another school was

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Speaker 2: an overly narrowing of boundaries such that we were treating

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Speaker 2: those super narrow boundaries as if this is the only

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Speaker 2: way in which we can properly articulate belonging to the

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Speaker 2: body of Christ.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: And I would to this day say, if that's the

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Speaker 2: way that we're articulating boundaries, I think there's a problem

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Speaker 2: in that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: His counterpoint to me was you know accepting that that

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Speaker 2: could be a problem there's a value to being able

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Speaker 2: to say we have a community so he was part

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Speaker 2: of the crc tradition and he wanted to say if

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Speaker 2: we have a particular program or school that's committed to

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Speaker 2: the historic values of the christian reformed church then we

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Speaker 2: need to have people who enter into it that have

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Speaker 2: a certain level of buy-in, not because what we're saying

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Speaker 2: is those outside the CRC are inherently problematic in their faith,

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Speaker 2: but because we're trying to uphold that. And I thought

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Speaker 2: that's a fair way of articulating it, right? So what

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Speaker 2: we're trying to get at here is that when, and

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Speaker 2: I'm not making a comment on the CRC, I don't

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Speaker 2: know the ins and outs of this particular tradition as

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Speaker 2: it relates to cooperation with others, but generally speaking, what

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Speaker 2: particularly intrigues us, and I think what gets to the

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Speaker 2: heart of your story that you just gave, is when

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Speaker 2: there becomes levels of suspicion entering in. So that what

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Speaker 2: we have now is an overly narrowing level for what

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Speaker 2: counts to be a follower of Christ. Where we begin

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Speaker 2: to think, oh, you're a Lutheran. Or even within Lutheran circles, oh,

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Speaker 2: you're a Missouri Synod. Such that we begin to wonder,

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Speaker 2: does that mean you're even a follower of Jesus? I

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Speaker 2: hear this when my kids ask questions, we're not Roman Catholic,

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Speaker 2: but they begin to ask questions of, so are Catholics Christians?

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Speaker 2: I said, yeah, insofar as they profess Christ, of course

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Speaker 2: they're Christians, right? So we think about early in the church,

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Speaker 2: there's a reason that we have the genealogies of traditions

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Speaker 2: to this day, right? I'll tell my kids, there's a

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Speaker 2: reason we're not Roman Catholic, and we can go into

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Speaker 2: those various reasons. But that's very different than saying they

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Speaker 2: are not followers of Jesus, the Son of God, the

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Speaker 2: second person of the triune God, right, who came to

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Speaker 2: save us from our sins, to bring about the process

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Speaker 2: of reconciliation for all of creation, right? These are core issues. So,

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Speaker 2: when we think about the early church where Of course,

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Speaker 2: there were these important councils. We tend to know of

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Speaker 2: seven of them as the ecumenical councils. And by ecumenical,

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Speaker 2: we just mean that the known part of the church

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Speaker 2: within the larger influence of the Roman Empire was joined

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Speaker 2: together in a commitment to expressing what are those core

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Speaker 2: elements of their unity, right? What made them the church

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Speaker 2: that followed Jesus. There were certainly other councils and what

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Speaker 2: prevented them from rising to the level of ecumenical is

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Speaker 2: that the church realized they represented the interests of a

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Speaker 2: local group and only a local group and couldn't rightfully

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Speaker 2: be said to represent the entirety of the body of

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Speaker 2: Christ versus those seven, at least again in that known

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Speaker 2: Roman Empire world, represent whether you were in the Spanish

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Speaker 2: regions in the far west of the empire or you

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Speaker 2: were in the southernmost reaches of the African reach of

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Speaker 2: the empire, or you're in the easternmost reaches in the

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Speaker 2: Middle East of the empire, or as far north as Germany,

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Speaker 2: or what we think of as Germany today, in the

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Speaker 2: northern reaches of the empire, these claims were supposed to

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Speaker 2: be something that said you could recognize the church that

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Speaker 2: follows Jesus in all of these places. Now, that doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean they were perfect in their proclamations and what they

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Speaker 2: were doing, right? There's certainly been traditions that follow that

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Speaker 2: have concerns with some of those ecumenical claims, one of

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Speaker 2: them being, of course, icons. One of the ecumenical agreements

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Speaker 2: was that icons were acceptable. Not all Christians today want.

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Speaker 1: To affirm that.

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Speaker 2: But the point was that these were boundaries that were

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Speaker 2: being erected not as a fine division between followers of Christ,

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Speaker 2: but in order to demarcate what does it mean to

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Speaker 2: profess Jesus as the Son of God God in the flesh,

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Speaker 2: God's self, right? And reconciler of creation to God's self.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think there's value in having

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Speaker 1: some of the distinctions. I don't have any problem with that.

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Speaker 1: I think the other part of this that I would

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Speaker 1: say is a problem with the distinctions. I'll use this analogy.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like inbreeding. like you only date within your

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Speaker 1: own family, right? We don't do that. We like to have,

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Speaker 1: you know, a broader perspective on who our kids should

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Speaker 1: date or who we should marry. And like that practice

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Speaker 1: went out a long, long time ago. As we form

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Speaker 1: these units, it does create a dynamic in which we

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Speaker 1: tend to stay within those units. We tend to stay

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Speaker 1: within those boundaries. And even though we say, well, we're

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Speaker 1: trying to preserve a heritage here, There's a subtle fragmentation

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Speaker 1: that takes place because we're only ever really interacting within

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Speaker 1: that tradition. And I think that can be also problematic.

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Speaker 1: So I'm for the distinctions. I have no issue with,

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Speaker 1: for instance, I know the Lutherans have a different perspective

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Speaker 1: on baptism, let's say, than Baptists might. the various forms

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Speaker 1: of Baptist we could throw out there. I know they

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Speaker 1: have a different understanding of that. Now, is it possible

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Speaker 1: that you could have a church that's practicing both forms? Sure,

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Speaker 1: you probably could. But it's also not necessary that you would.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that there is an appropriateness to

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Speaker 1: a community of practice rooted in different doctrinal beliefs. I

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Speaker 1: just happen to think that we have to put in

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Speaker 1: a little bit more effort to bridge the gaps between

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Speaker 1: those traditions so that the traditions don't become so insular

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Speaker 1: that it ultimately develops into, even though confessionally people might

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Speaker 1: not say it, like, hey, this other group isn't Christian.

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Speaker 1: I think in practice it feels that way. And so

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Speaker 1: there is a subtle sort of fragmentation that happens even

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Speaker 1: when we form these groups. I think it's not essentially evil.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a consequence of the particular structure that

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Speaker 1: we've adopted. And it's something that we need to be

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Speaker 1: thinking through and aware of so that we can counteract

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Speaker 1: the tendency, if that makes sense. It does.

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Speaker 2: Can you say a little bit more about what you

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Speaker 2: think that structure is that you see it as a

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Speaker 2: consequence of?

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think, I mean, we both worked

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Speaker 1: at denominational, not denominational schools. We both worked in non-denominational schools.

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Speaker 1: we both attended non-denominational schools. Wheaton College is a non-denominational school,

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Speaker 1: as far as I know. You know, Moody Bible Institute,

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Speaker 1: where I did my MDiv, was a non-denominational school. Trinity

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Speaker 1: was associated with E3, right? But within those institutions, and

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Speaker 1: they didn't, yeah, right. It was much broader. And so

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Speaker 1: I would say, though, that Wheaton was, uh, more strongly

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Speaker 1: academic and thus I think a bit more ecumenical. Um,

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Speaker 1: Moody was, um, more closed off. And there was a

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Speaker 1: sense I can remember sitting when I was doing my

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Speaker 1: MDiv at Moody, sitting in the lunchroom and listening to

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Speaker 1: some of my fellow MDiv students sitting there talking with

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Speaker 1: the professor and basically, um, asking the question of whether

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Speaker 1: Reformed theology is heretical. Moody's a dispensational school. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what conclusion they ever came to, but you can

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Speaker 1: see how these sort of things would raise up de facto.

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Speaker 1: Because we're segmenting ourselves and because we're deciding on our

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Speaker 1: own doctrinal statements, we begin to develop a vested interest

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Speaker 1: in those doctrinal distinctives, as opposed to recognizing them for

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Speaker 1: what they are. Plausible if not plausible, legitimate readings of

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Speaker 1: the biblical text, constructed back over into doctrine, and the

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Speaker 1: biblical text isn't infinitely plausible, and so it's not infinitely pliable, rather.

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Speaker 1: So there are going to be boundaries, there are going

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Speaker 1: to be limits to what can be developed, but I

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Speaker 1: think it starts to become too insular, and you start

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Speaker 1: to forget that your doctrinal formulation isn't simply plausible and legitimate,

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Speaker 1: you start to think of it as authoritative and bracketing.

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Speaker 1: And so you get these sort of statements that, you know,

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Speaker 1: certain other positions may or may not be heretical. I

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Speaker 1: would say like at one point, you know, complementarian and

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Speaker 1: egalitarian issues when we talked about them during my MDiv,

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Speaker 1: very similar feel. You began to think of egalitarians as heretics,

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Speaker 1: not as people who held a separate position than yours,

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Speaker 1: but were still Christians. You began to think of these

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Speaker 1: kind of folks as the wrong kind of folks. I

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Speaker 1: think it's very difficult, in other words, to construct these

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Speaker 1: social relationships without creating black sheep within the social matrix.

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Speaker 1: And that creates a certain level of fragmentation. It also

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Speaker 1: creates a certain level of what we might call a

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Speaker 1: social hierarchy, right? Where some people are more dead center

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Speaker 1: and other people are more deviant. Um, I was always

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Speaker 1: more deviant, honestly. I think part of it was the tattoos. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's just like, I did, I did things differently. I

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Speaker 1: thought differently. I acted differently. Part of it was that

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Speaker 1: I didn't grow up in Christian culture. I came to

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Speaker 1: it much later. So I didn't really understand what the

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Speaker 1: finer points were. And so I was always a little

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Speaker 1: bit more deviant, but you could, you could feel as

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Speaker 1: being pushed even, you know, partly to the margins as

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Speaker 1: I was, you could see how, you know, a legacy

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Speaker 1: pastor's kid was going to have way different opportunities than

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Speaker 1: somebody like me who's coming to this completely fresh and

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Speaker 1: is a little strange is ever going to have within

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Speaker 1: that community. And you could tell that I was going

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Speaker 1: to get away with far less than the pastor's kid

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Speaker 1: was going to get by with. Right. And so you

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Speaker 1: have these sort of I think that's the dynamic that

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about. And hopefully that gives a sense of

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Speaker 1: the structure that I'm talking about. Whenever we divide ourselves,

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Speaker 1: have a denomination, have a doctrinally distinct college of some sort, whatever. Again,

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Speaker 1: those structures aren't evil. They're not bad necessarily, but we

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Speaker 1: have to be aware of the dynamics that are created

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Speaker 1: within them and actively work to counteract those dynamics.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's helpful. It brings up a lot of, side

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Speaker 2: questions that I think are related, um, that I didn't

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Speaker 2: actually expect us to go there, but I'm going to,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do it anyway. Pull me back if

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Speaker 2: I go too far out. Um, I think about the

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Speaker 2: work of, uh, the great 20th century theologian, George Lindbeck. Um,

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Speaker 2: so his, his main work, the nature of doctrine or

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Speaker 2: his most popular work, um, Which, incidentally, for those out

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Speaker 2: there who know of Kevin Van Hooser, his work, The

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Speaker 2: Drama of Doctrine, which is probably his most significant work,

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Speaker 2: is a deliberate play off of that. In some ways,

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Speaker 2: he's following in the line of what George Limbeck did,

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Speaker 2: in some ways pivoting and trying to draw lines a

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Speaker 2: little bit differently. But similar sorts of projects. And what

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Speaker 2: is that project? Well, the project is, how do we

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Speaker 2: begin to understand, in some ways, we could say the

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Speaker 2: democratization of faith. Yeah. You think about the early church,

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Speaker 2: which was heavily elder-driven, and elder transcended the boundaries of

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Speaker 2: one particular local congregation. I think a lot of times,

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Speaker 2: especially in lower church evangelical settings, we tend to think

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Speaker 2: of the elders as a people in one church. And

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Speaker 2: that's sort of the boundary of their influence and what

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Speaker 2: they're doing. But in, in the early church, there was

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Speaker 2: a much more deeply intertwined reality to the life of elders.

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Speaker 2: And it's formalized in the form of thing, you know,

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Speaker 2: the formal structure of bishops that eventually gives way to

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Speaker 2: things like archbishops and then eventually in the Western church cardinals.

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Speaker 2: And then of course the head of that ends up

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Speaker 2: being in the Western church, the Pope, um, within that structure,

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Speaker 2: let me say this, that structure is meant to be

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Speaker 2: in some ways a protector of authority, right? Someone outside

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Speaker 2: of that structure could say anything they wanted to when

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Speaker 2: they pick up the Bible. Why do we count that

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Speaker 2: or not count that as good teaching? And the answer

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Speaker 2: can't just simply be because well, we are the people

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Speaker 2: in this church with this group of elders. So that

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Speaker 2: structure was meant to protect that, right? But of course,

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Speaker 2: as we know, the fragmentation was already present prior to

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Speaker 2: the Protestant Reformation. You have the fragmentation creeping up in

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Speaker 2: the early church such that the culmination of that is

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Speaker 2: a division in the East and the West between right,

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Speaker 2: between those churches that began to follow the leadership of Constantinople,

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Speaker 2: which became Byzantium, which becomes Istanbul. And even that set

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Speaker 2: of churches has a looser sense of centralized authority, right?

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Speaker 2: So you think about the churches that come out of that.

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Speaker 2: The Greek Orthodox and the Ukrainian Orthodox and the Russian

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Speaker 2: Orthodox and the Syrian Orthodox, among others, aren't quite so

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Speaker 2: centrally unified and the way that we think of what

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Speaker 2: happens in the Western church under the papacy.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So there are real divisions between the Ukrainian and the

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Speaker 2: Russian Orthodox church that has resulted in real political issues that,

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Speaker 2: that animate the lives of Ukrainian and Russian, uh, governments

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Speaker 2: and citizens.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Nevermind the other Eastern Orthodox churches and the West you

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Speaker 2: have ultimately, I mean, you have, you have a lot of, uh,

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Speaker 2: back and forth. I think yesterday or maybe today was

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Speaker 2: the anniversary of the death, I believe, of the last

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Speaker 2: alternate pope in the Western world. So you have this

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Speaker 2: period known as the Babylonian captivity of the church where

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Speaker 2: there's multiple people claiming to be pope. So the history

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Speaker 2: pre-reformation of the papacy isn't even quite as unified as

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Speaker 2: we might be led to believe. And that different set

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Speaker 2: of popes also brings about Different sets of cardinals that

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Speaker 2: support that pope, which means a different set of structure

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Speaker 2: as to what bishops have to and priests have to

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Speaker 2: report to, right? But ultimately, you get the Protestant Reformation,

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Speaker 2: and the Reformation brings in that deepest sense of fragmentation,

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Speaker 2: particularly in the Western Church, that just starts to explode, right?

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Speaker 2: Especially in the Americas, and especially in the United States,

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Speaker 2: and especially in upstate New York in the early 1800s.

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Speaker 2: something was in the water in upstate New York, but

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Speaker 2: you get this explosion of denominational differences that to this

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Speaker 2: day has continued to run amok, right? Our denominations aren't

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Speaker 2: done dividing. They continue to divide and the issues are

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Speaker 2: newer and newer. And what George Limbeck wanted to say

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Speaker 2: is how do we begin to understand how this doctrine

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Speaker 2: functions in this increasingly fragmented reality? How does someone who's

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Speaker 2: nevermind two different groups of Lutherans. How does someone who's

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Speaker 2: a Lutheran begin to communicate with someone who's a Baptist?

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Speaker 2: They have very different starting points. They have very different

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Speaker 2: understandings of political reality. And I don't mean Democrat or Republican,

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Speaker 2: but I mean, how does the church relate to the

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Speaker 2: ongoing civil life of its practitioners?

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: They have very different understandings of centralized authority. And those

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Speaker 2: are precursors to the more obvious things, the very different

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Speaker 2: understandings of things like how does baptism work? How does

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Speaker 2: the Lord's Supper work? What precisely is the thing going

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Speaker 2: on when we say that someone is justified by faith?

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Speaker 2: Even as we talk about Baptists and Lutherans, for instance,

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Speaker 2: being members of the Protestant larger umbrella, they still don't

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Speaker 2: actually quite precisely agree right so you have these things

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Speaker 2: that some people would say is overly academic discourse called

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Speaker 2: the ordo salutis the order of salvation you have all

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Speaker 2: these different ways of formulating that's really trying to get

431
00:27:48,390 --> 00:27:52,470
Speaker 2: at what's going on when we say grace touches someone

432
00:27:53,810 --> 00:27:58,050
Speaker 2: how significant is faith and what exactly is going on

433
00:27:58,090 --> 00:28:00,869
Speaker 2: in faith right luther was and the lutheran tradition in

434
00:28:00,910 --> 00:28:06,629
Speaker 2: some parts are very concerned for intellect intellectualizing works Is

435
00:28:06,690 --> 00:28:10,730
Speaker 2: faith just an intellectual work in ways that I think

436
00:28:10,780 --> 00:28:14,060
Speaker 2: many evangelicals and neo-evangelicals and neo-Calvinists don't seem to have

437
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: the same level of concern about that? This is all

438
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,899
Speaker 2: to put a very fine point on what George Lindbeck's

439
00:28:20,940 --> 00:28:24,660
Speaker 2: problem was. And what he's trying to work through with

440
00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:29,050
Speaker 2: his ecumenical mindedness is how can we begin to honor

441
00:28:29,090 --> 00:28:33,790
Speaker 2: that these traditions form in specific ways, in specific places,

442
00:28:33,869 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: with specific vocabularies? That aren't precisely the same as the

443
00:28:38,220 --> 00:28:41,870
Speaker 2: use of maybe the same terms in other traditions, right?

444
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:49,250
Speaker 2: While allowing for the possibility of learning from each other,

445
00:28:50,030 --> 00:28:55,290
Speaker 2: talking to each other, recognizing that we're all speaking of

446
00:28:55,350 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: the same Jesus in the same historic ways as the

447
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,580
Speaker 2: Son of God, second person of the Trinity, incarnate in

448
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:08,940
Speaker 2: the flesh as fully God, fully man, right? And so

449
00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: his nature of doctrine is trying to work through those.

450
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,380
Speaker 2: And Kevin Van Hooser's follow-up, The Drama of Doctrine, is

451
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,900
Speaker 2: really trying to do the same thing with his own

452
00:29:17,940 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: emphases of saying, what does this mean when we get

453
00:29:19,900 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: to scripture? If the papacy has the structure of ultimately

454
00:29:24,620 --> 00:29:28,380
Speaker 2: saying what the College of Cardinals and the papacy decide

455
00:29:28,420 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 2: is ultimately what's canonized as the teaching of the church.

456
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:37,620
Speaker 2: These are the non-negotiables. Protestants don't have that. So we

457
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,930
Speaker 2: continue to say, well, what the scriptures say, but.

458
00:29:30,590 --> 00:29:30,730
Speaker 1: Yeah.

459
00:29:30,750 --> 00:29:30,890
Speaker 2: Yeah.

460
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:07,990
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah when I think that when we think about

461
00:30:08,030 --> 00:30:11,450
Speaker 1: some of this we're part of what I'd like to

462
00:30:11,490 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: guard against is kind of what we've ultimately called conditions

463
00:30:16,220 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: and I think inversion is a condition here so there's

464
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:27,290
Speaker 1: the fragmentation that happens because we are disagreeing we decide

465
00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:31,820
Speaker 1: to part amicably and And as we part amicably, we

466
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:37,900
Speaker 1: create communities around these doctrinal distinctions that now don't communicate across.

467
00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:43,780
Speaker 1: And there's an insularity that happens and a language, for

468
00:30:43,820 --> 00:30:48,460
Speaker 1: lack of a better term, that develops. Because what was it?

469
00:30:48,610 --> 00:30:52,510
Speaker 1: A cultural linguistic approach that Lindbeck did, right? I think

470
00:30:52,530 --> 00:30:59,100
Speaker 1: I'm remembering that correctly. This basically... A Lutheran is going

471
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,780
Speaker 1: to talk through these things and mean something different by

472
00:31:01,820 --> 00:31:05,150
Speaker 1: the terms that are used than a Baptist or a

473
00:31:05,310 --> 00:31:10,710
Speaker 1: non-denominational person or whomever. They just have a slightly different language.

474
00:31:10,750 --> 00:31:12,990
Speaker 1: The words are often the same, but the concepts underneath

475
00:31:13,030 --> 00:31:17,310
Speaker 1: those words are slightly different. And so as we sort

476
00:31:17,350 --> 00:31:21,300
Speaker 1: of faction off, what we begin to lose is the

477
00:31:21,380 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: willingness and or ability to wrestle with those terms. and

478
00:31:26,900 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: to really deeply understand what the other person is saying.

479
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: So there's either sort of this sort of anemic acceptance

480
00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: that what they're saying is what we're saying, or there's

481
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: just an unwillingness to engage it because they're obviously wrong.

482
00:31:41,860 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: So I think that part sort of develops. But then

483
00:31:44,220 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: I think there's this other sort of problematic condition or

484
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: dynamic that comes into this, which is inversion. All of

485
00:31:52,510 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: a sudden, the doctrines, is no longer conversant with other

486
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: communities or with the biblical text itself. And so there's

487
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: a sense in which what's inverted is if the Bible

488
00:32:06,220 --> 00:32:08,450
Speaker 1: is supposed to be a top, it's supposed to be

489
00:32:08,470 --> 00:32:11,430
Speaker 1: the final authority for life and faith governing the way

490
00:32:11,450 --> 00:32:15,210
Speaker 1: that we think and believe, the doctrine is sort of

491
00:32:15,270 --> 00:32:18,390
Speaker 1: slipped on top of it so that now the Bible

492
00:32:18,470 --> 00:32:22,990
Speaker 1: is read solely through this grid. And when there's a

493
00:32:23,250 --> 00:32:30,740
Speaker 1: text that creates problems for a doctrine, it is, uh, domesticated,

494
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: let's say, right. To the doctrinal stance that's put on

495
00:32:36,740 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: top of it. Um, there's probably a number of different

496
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: instances we could go to for this. Um, I'll go

497
00:32:44,340 --> 00:32:49,300
Speaker 1: for a, a quasi controversial one, I guess, but, um,

498
00:32:51,380 --> 00:32:55,590
Speaker 1: you know, when we think about something like, um, We've

499
00:32:55,620 --> 00:32:59,130
Speaker 1: talked about this, how she's God in time. One of

500
00:32:59,170 --> 00:33:02,650
Speaker 1: the passages I almost always go to is Genesis 22.

501
00:33:02,650 --> 00:33:05,690
Speaker 1: And so there's a hermeneutic approach. I'll explain this for

502
00:33:06,250 --> 00:33:10,430
Speaker 1: people on the podcast. There's a hermeneutical approach that would say, hey,

503
00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:17,140
Speaker 1: we value grammar and genre and historical understandings of the test.

504
00:33:17,180 --> 00:33:20,780
Speaker 1: And so it's the historical grammatical hermeneutic. Even if you

505
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: haven't heard that phrase, you've probably seen this done. And

506
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:31,180
Speaker 1: so the question becomes is then how do you balance genre, grammar,

507
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,590
Speaker 1: historical context, cultural milieu in which, you know, a given thing,

508
00:33:36,610 --> 00:33:38,670
Speaker 1: you know, when do you bring in for your Old

509
00:33:38,710 --> 00:33:41,630
Speaker 1: Testament interpretations, when do you bring in ancient Near Eastern cognates,

510
00:33:41,690 --> 00:33:45,970
Speaker 1: those kind of things. And students, usually when I'm teaching

511
00:33:46,050 --> 00:33:49,490
Speaker 1: early hermeneutics classes, they think they have a general idea

512
00:33:49,510 --> 00:33:52,290
Speaker 1: of this and they think that the grammar, the smallest

513
00:33:52,630 --> 00:33:56,790
Speaker 1: sentence structure, should always be privileged, right? What the text

514
00:33:56,810 --> 00:34:01,030
Speaker 1: says should always be the first thing. And so I

515
00:34:01,070 --> 00:34:04,370
Speaker 1: take him to Genesis 22, and Abraham is about to

516
00:34:04,430 --> 00:34:06,670
Speaker 1: plunge the knife into Isaac's chest, and the angel of

517
00:34:06,690 --> 00:34:09,740
Speaker 1: the Lord comes down, speaking for God and says, now

518
00:34:09,890 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: I know that you are one who fears God. And

519
00:34:14,540 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: you just sit back and you're like, grammatically what this

520
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: means is that now, not before, now, God knows. He

521
00:34:22,540 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: didn't know before. It creates all of these huge problems.

522
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,060
Speaker 1: It's a real tension. Like the biblical text creates a

523
00:34:30,180 --> 00:34:33,890
Speaker 1: real tension. Now there's various ways to resolve that tension

524
00:34:33,950 --> 00:34:37,390
Speaker 1: or to lessen that tension. But the reality is that

525
00:34:37,630 --> 00:34:42,350
Speaker 1: if we're, when the text does something like that to us, right,

526
00:34:42,650 --> 00:34:46,270
Speaker 1: we shouldn't just ignore it. We can't just domesticate it

527
00:34:46,290 --> 00:34:49,509
Speaker 1: and say, well, obviously it just means this. Like there's

528
00:34:49,530 --> 00:34:52,930
Speaker 1: a wrestling that should be taking place. And my concern

529
00:34:53,010 --> 00:34:55,690
Speaker 1: is that when we start to do the inversions and

530
00:34:55,730 --> 00:34:58,190
Speaker 1: when we start to say, well, here's our doctrinal statement,

531
00:34:58,290 --> 00:35:03,219
Speaker 1: here's our theological system, here's our broad-based hermeneutic, that now

532
00:35:03,300 --> 00:35:09,899
Speaker 1: we're making the biblical text to fit our hermeneutic, which

533
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,060
Speaker 1: inverts the authority structure. All of a sudden, our hermeneutic,

534
00:35:14,100 --> 00:35:18,380
Speaker 1: our doctrine, our system is governing the biblical text and

535
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: the way that it's to be read. There's some appropriateness

536
00:35:21,860 --> 00:35:24,590
Speaker 1: to that, but I think we have to be very

537
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:30,150
Speaker 1: cautious to negotiate the boundaries between appropriate use of frameworks

538
00:35:30,190 --> 00:35:34,250
Speaker 1: and grids and understandings coming in and informing the biblical

539
00:35:34,290 --> 00:35:39,620
Speaker 1: text versus inappropriate ways of not allowing the biblical text

540
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: to correct, revise, and force us to rethink some of

541
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,549
Speaker 1: our belief systems or hermeneutics or understandings. Because it is

542
00:35:50,620 --> 00:35:55,609
Speaker 1: really the authority. And so I realize that is part

543
00:35:55,650 --> 00:35:57,890
Speaker 1: of what Lindbeck is trying to solve. But I think

544
00:35:57,930 --> 00:36:01,570
Speaker 1: it's worth sort of throwing out there, just naming this problem,

545
00:36:01,610 --> 00:36:06,569
Speaker 1: because oftentimes what I see when I see or when

546
00:36:06,610 --> 00:36:09,770
Speaker 1: I've experienced groups that are that tend to be a

547
00:36:09,790 --> 00:36:13,350
Speaker 1: little bit more insular and isolated, fragmented off from the

548
00:36:13,390 --> 00:36:15,890
Speaker 1: body of Christ. where it's like, yeah, you can hang

549
00:36:15,930 --> 00:36:18,069
Speaker 1: around with us, but if you really wanted to be

550
00:36:18,110 --> 00:36:22,469
Speaker 1: part of us, you'd believe in young earth creationism, and

551
00:36:22,489 --> 00:36:28,550
Speaker 1: you'd believe in a strictly dispensational hermeneutic, or you'd believe

552
00:36:28,590 --> 00:36:32,410
Speaker 1: that Babylon is Babylon, not some sort of symbol for

553
00:36:32,450 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: Rome in Revelation. All these different components start to come in,

554
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, I don't understand why those things

555
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: are even important to believe as a test of faith.

556
00:36:44,989 --> 00:36:47,489
Speaker 1: But for them, it isn't necessarily, they would say it's

557
00:36:47,530 --> 00:36:49,390
Speaker 1: not a test of faith, but they would say is no,

558
00:36:49,450 --> 00:36:52,750
Speaker 1: it's just, it's just, you know, sort of buy-in, right.

559
00:36:52,870 --> 00:36:56,469
Speaker 1: To participate in our community. But the problem is that

560
00:36:56,510 --> 00:36:59,540
Speaker 1: when that community becomes so insular, it really does feel

561
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,739
Speaker 1: like you're just leaving people out in the cold. Like

562
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,340
Speaker 1: this is the real Christian community and everybody else is

563
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:06,700
Speaker 1: sort of like second-class citizens.

564
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:08,140
Speaker 3: Yeah.

565
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,380
Speaker 2: That's, I'm, I like your use of Genesis as a

566
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,590
Speaker 2: concrete way to think about this because it, there's a

567
00:37:15,610 --> 00:37:17,650
Speaker 2: few things that come to my mind, both with your

568
00:37:18,050 --> 00:37:23,009
Speaker 2: conclusion and with your use of that passage. When we

569
00:37:23,030 --> 00:37:25,270
Speaker 2: look at that Genesis 22, I believe you said, right?

570
00:37:26,750 --> 00:37:33,370
Speaker 2: Now I know. It creates a tension, but I wonder,

571
00:37:33,469 --> 00:37:36,110
Speaker 2: I guess, does it create a, is that tension within

572
00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:40,470
Speaker 2: the text? Does the text feel that tension? And I, yeah, right.

573
00:37:40,489 --> 00:37:43,390
Speaker 2: So my, My inclination is to say I don't feel

574
00:37:43,410 --> 00:37:45,390
Speaker 2: that tension in the text. That's something in front of

575
00:37:45,430 --> 00:38:14,299
Speaker 2: the text. Understanding the Hebraic mind will help us understand

576
00:38:14,510 --> 00:38:18,930
Speaker 2: why that tension or why that passage speaks the way

577
00:38:18,969 --> 00:38:23,589
Speaker 2: that it does. And maybe learning within that of what

578
00:38:23,630 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 2: that tension is. But there's this other part of me,

579
00:38:27,030 --> 00:38:29,730
Speaker 2: I'm also the contrarian, right? Like you, where I want

580
00:38:29,750 --> 00:38:32,590
Speaker 2: to say, how in the world? I have enough trouble

581
00:38:32,650 --> 00:38:36,469
Speaker 2: understanding the people that live around me. You know, when

582
00:38:36,969 --> 00:38:39,470
Speaker 2: my son has a certain kind of emotional reaction that

583
00:38:39,489 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 2: he does, I have a hard time understanding him, and

584
00:38:44,540 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 2: I'd venture to say that I'm probably among the people

585
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,379
Speaker 2: that know my son the best in the whole world, right?

586
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:51,980
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

587
00:38:53,540 --> 00:38:55,989
Speaker 2: How in the world am I going to understand, several

588
00:38:56,030 --> 00:39:03,710
Speaker 2: thousand years ago, Hebraic mindset? Yeah, yeah. So there's problem

589
00:39:03,750 --> 00:39:06,070
Speaker 2: number one within that. But then two within that of

590
00:39:06,810 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 2: having to understand that in front of the text dynamic

591
00:39:09,540 --> 00:39:13,900
Speaker 2: doesn't change. Regardless of my understanding of the Hebraic mindset,

592
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,859
Speaker 2: this is a reality in front of the text. It's

593
00:39:17,020 --> 00:39:20,980
Speaker 2: me reading the text. It's you reading the text. And

594
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,910
Speaker 2: especially when we have this tradition and this understanding of

595
00:39:23,989 --> 00:39:29,290
Speaker 2: the living text that God continues to speak into, you

596
00:39:29,330 --> 00:39:32,339
Speaker 2: can't just bracket. out in front of the text, right?

597
00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:35,739
Speaker 2: We are really trying to say, the Danish philosopher Soren

598
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:44,299
Speaker 2: Kierkegaard spoke of the problem of trying to seek objectivity

599
00:39:44,380 --> 00:39:47,140
Speaker 2: is that we're trying to seek something outside of my place.

600
00:39:49,390 --> 00:39:51,790
Speaker 2: And it's a problem because I ultimately want to know

601
00:39:51,850 --> 00:39:54,150
Speaker 2: something from my place because it's from my place that

602
00:39:54,190 --> 00:39:56,509
Speaker 2: I live and move and breathe and have to live

603
00:39:56,550 --> 00:40:00,210
Speaker 2: my life. So if I understand a text from outside

604
00:40:00,230 --> 00:40:03,299
Speaker 2: of my place, what good is that to me who's

605
00:40:03,340 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 2: trying to live that text in my place, right? That's

606
00:40:06,620 --> 00:40:08,020
Speaker 2: the short of what Kierkegaard's looking at. And I think

607
00:40:08,060 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 2: he's right about that problem that he's publicizing by saying

608
00:40:13,380 --> 00:40:17,049
Speaker 2: our aim is wrong. But it is worth analyzing to

609
00:40:17,090 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 2: say Why is that a tension here and now? And

610
00:40:21,460 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 2: a lot of work has been done to show that

611
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,380
Speaker 2: maybe that says more about us. Maybe it says more

612
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,629
Speaker 2: about our traditions. Maybe it says more about this thing

613
00:40:27,650 --> 00:40:30,450
Speaker 2: that we call classical theism and where it came from.

614
00:40:31,050 --> 00:40:33,589
Speaker 2: Where do these assumptions about God come from? Do they

615
00:40:33,610 --> 00:40:36,290
Speaker 2: come from the text or do they come from Greek philosophy?

616
00:40:36,410 --> 00:40:38,700
Speaker 2: And increasingly, I think it's fair to say a lot

617
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,100
Speaker 2: of these assumptions come from Greek philosophy. Okay, well, what

618
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,419
Speaker 2: do we do with that? You have people working within

619
00:40:43,460 --> 00:40:45,900
Speaker 2: that tradition, like the open theists, who'd say, well, then

620
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 2: God just doesn't know. end of problem. Or you have

621
00:40:48,980 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 2: people like the open or the process theologians, you might say, well,

622
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:56,299
Speaker 2: we're God is God. God self is already also on

623
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:01,370
Speaker 2: this journey of self-discovery and creation and history become mechanisms

624
00:41:01,430 --> 00:41:05,149
Speaker 2: of self-discovery, right? That's a step significantly beyond what open

625
00:41:05,190 --> 00:41:10,150
Speaker 2: theos say. But I wonder, And I don't have an

626
00:41:10,180 --> 00:41:13,190
Speaker 2: answer to this, but I wonder how that Hebraic person

627
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:16,850
Speaker 2: hearing Genesis 22 wandering in the desert or on their

628
00:41:16,870 --> 00:41:20,110
Speaker 2: way into wandering into the desert after having coming out

629
00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:23,700
Speaker 2: of Egypt, hears that. Do they hear that and they think, oh,

630
00:41:23,860 --> 00:41:29,140
Speaker 2: wait a minute. So you didn't know before? And my

631
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 2: guess is they didn't stop and ask that question. Doesn't

632
00:41:32,540 --> 00:41:34,890
Speaker 2: mean we shouldn't, but it just says more about them, right?

633
00:41:35,150 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 2: So what Lindbeck's trying to get at is, Part of

634
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:45,330
Speaker 2: this conversation is recognizing– I'll use the language of Dan Block.

635
00:41:45,770 --> 00:41:46,890
Speaker 2: Many years ago, I said this when I was in

636
00:41:46,910 --> 00:41:52,730
Speaker 2: grad school. That often the things that we write down

637
00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:56,220
Speaker 2: as the biggest questions that animate the intensity within which

638
00:41:56,300 --> 00:42:00,339
Speaker 2: we create this fragmentation are themselves already things that were

639
00:42:00,420 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 2: written down with pencil. And if we don't recognize they're

640
00:42:04,219 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 2: written down with pencil, we fail to recognize the provisionality.

641
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

642
00:42:09,140 --> 00:42:44,069
Speaker 2: Yeah. defines the discourse. And this question gets at what's

643
00:42:44,250 --> 00:42:47,390
Speaker 2: really at stake. And this question is what I have

644
00:42:47,430 --> 00:42:51,870
Speaker 2: to enculturate people into. And if I can't enculturate them

645
00:42:51,930 --> 00:42:53,450
Speaker 2: into this, then they're on the outside.

646
00:42:54,150 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 1: Right?

647
00:42:55,030 --> 00:42:56,060
Speaker 2: When at the end of the day, we'd say, wait,

648
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,860
Speaker 2: so regardless of what I think of the open theist,

649
00:42:59,900 --> 00:43:05,060
Speaker 2: I don't tend to buy open theism, but what is

650
00:43:05,100 --> 00:43:09,190
Speaker 2: the open theist saying about Jesus? Still sounds like what,

651
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 2: the early church set up as the big questions of,

652
00:43:13,900 --> 00:43:16,700
Speaker 2: are you really following the Jesus? Are you saying of Jesus,

653
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:22,150
Speaker 2: what ultimately matters for the larger declaration of who Jesus is,

654
00:43:22,670 --> 00:43:22,930
Speaker 2: you know?

655
00:43:23,630 --> 00:43:28,650
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I, here's what I find interesting is, you know,

656
00:43:28,670 --> 00:43:31,049
Speaker 1: just as you're talking there, you know, we, we talk

657
00:43:31,070 --> 00:43:35,259
Speaker 1: about these, there's a fundamental sort of starting point that

658
00:43:35,380 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: most of us come or that many people come to

659
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,180
Speaker 1: a text with. Now I, I, Like I said, I

660
00:43:42,219 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: hadn't grown up really in a Christian context before I

661
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,500
Speaker 1: went to seminary. And so I went in and had

662
00:43:48,540 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: no real clue what any of these things were. Like

663
00:43:50,940 --> 00:43:55,020
Speaker 1: I didn't know what dispensational or covenant theology was. I

664
00:43:55,040 --> 00:44:00,500
Speaker 1: didn't know what complementarian versus egalitarian theology was. I didn't

665
00:44:00,930 --> 00:44:04,250
Speaker 1: like these bigger categories of doctrinal kind of things. I

666
00:44:04,270 --> 00:44:07,069
Speaker 1: didn't fully grasp. I didn't understand what was going on.

667
00:44:07,130 --> 00:44:10,089
Speaker 1: I had some catching up to do. And so while

668
00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:12,150
Speaker 1: I have a working knowledge of some of that now,

669
00:44:12,390 --> 00:44:16,850
Speaker 1: even like Calvinism and Arminianism, I also had the benefit

670
00:44:16,890 --> 00:44:19,489
Speaker 1: of walking in cold. I had no idea what I

671
00:44:19,530 --> 00:44:24,049
Speaker 1: was looking at. And so instead of sitting down and saying, well,

672
00:44:24,070 --> 00:44:26,180
Speaker 1: let me get out of systematic theology and read all

673
00:44:26,219 --> 00:44:30,959
Speaker 1: about this, I started my MDiv, which is a very

674
00:44:31,020 --> 00:44:33,320
Speaker 1: moody kind of thing. You just start reading your Bible.

675
00:44:34,660 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 1: And so I got used to just letting the text

676
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,250
Speaker 1: sort of do whatever it was going to do. Right.

677
00:44:41,550 --> 00:44:43,690
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I read the Bible better than everybody else,

678
00:44:43,770 --> 00:44:48,390
Speaker 1: but by not having those systematic categories, there's a part

679
00:44:48,430 --> 00:44:50,730
Speaker 1: of me that when I hit Genesis 22, that it

680
00:44:50,770 --> 00:44:54,350
Speaker 1: really didn't bother me. Right. Like I'm just reading this

681
00:44:54,410 --> 00:44:58,410
Speaker 1: story of Abraham's test of faith and like sort of

682
00:44:58,469 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 1: being immersed within it and just allowing that story to

683
00:45:02,940 --> 00:45:05,910
Speaker 1: do whatever it's going to do to me. And I

684
00:45:05,950 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: think that there is a part of this where if

685
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:14,540
Speaker 1: we start to recognize that the word of God was

686
00:45:14,580 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: given to us in a non-systematized fashion. And so there's

687
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,970
Speaker 1: value to systemization. There's value to constructing theology and doctrine.

688
00:45:25,610 --> 00:45:28,790
Speaker 1: But the reality is that the Bible doesn't do that.

689
00:45:29,310 --> 00:45:32,830
Speaker 1: We do that. And so the Bible is doing something

690
00:45:32,950 --> 00:45:36,850
Speaker 1: else to us. It's being presented to us in a

691
00:45:36,910 --> 00:45:40,150
Speaker 1: different fashion. And so just allowing it to be read

692
00:45:40,450 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: on its own, on its own terms, in the way

693
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: that it's conveyed, I think is an important aspect of this.

694
00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that I would ever say, hey, never

695
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,420
Speaker 1: construct doctrine, never do systematics. This is all ridiculous. I

696
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,219
Speaker 1: think there have to be ways in which we put

697
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,780
Speaker 1: this thing together. So that we can give people handles

698
00:45:59,860 --> 00:46:01,299
Speaker 1: so that when they go and read it, they can

699
00:46:01,340 --> 00:46:04,650
Speaker 1: understand it intelligibly. But at the same time, I think

700
00:46:04,670 --> 00:46:07,690
Speaker 1: you want to hold on fairly loosely to those handles.

701
00:46:08,489 --> 00:46:11,270
Speaker 1: To your point, like it's written in pencil. And so

702
00:46:11,730 --> 00:46:14,690
Speaker 1: when you hit these texts, you're not just so consumed with,

703
00:46:14,739 --> 00:46:16,660
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, what does this do to my system?

704
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: It's a question of what is God's word saying? And

705
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 1: what are the implications of what it's saying at this point?

706
00:46:26,070 --> 00:46:31,650
Speaker 1: And so we have to start thinking through that lens,

707
00:46:31,730 --> 00:46:36,610
Speaker 1: I think. You know, it sounds like I'm sort of

708
00:46:36,660 --> 00:46:39,620
Speaker 1: being wishy-washy, I think, on, oh, let's just all read

709
00:46:39,660 --> 00:46:44,100
Speaker 1: our Bibles, right? I think there are guardrails that are necessary.

710
00:46:44,260 --> 00:46:46,180
Speaker 1: I sort of lament the loss of some sort of

711
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:51,689
Speaker 1: teaching office or some way of sort of entering into

712
00:46:51,710 --> 00:46:54,980
Speaker 1: the text. But I also think that any way we

713
00:46:55,060 --> 00:46:57,660
Speaker 1: enter into the text is ultimately going to skew the

714
00:46:57,700 --> 00:47:00,660
Speaker 1: way that we read the text itself. And this is

715
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 1: why we have a plurality of voices reading the text

716
00:47:03,860 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 1: in a variety of different ways that we can learn

717
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,800
Speaker 1: from one another, disagree with one another, argue with one another,

718
00:47:10,260 --> 00:47:14,590
Speaker 1: but ultimately remain united with one another. And I think

719
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,050
Speaker 1: that's part of the art that we're losing. We're losing

720
00:47:17,090 --> 00:47:20,910
Speaker 1: this art of negotiation. Where we sit back and say, no,

721
00:47:20,930 --> 00:47:24,490
Speaker 1: that's clearly something that the Bible stands against. And there

722
00:47:24,550 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 1: are those things versus there's a there's a space here

723
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,339
Speaker 1: where multiple views can be really plausible. And we have

724
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:37,620
Speaker 1: no idea which one is like actually the way it

725
00:47:37,660 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: should be practiced or if any of them are the

726
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: way they should be practiced. Right. Any one of them

727
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,250
Speaker 1: is the way it should be practiced. And I just

728
00:47:47,270 --> 00:47:51,890
Speaker 1: think there's that art of negotiation, that willingness to have

729
00:47:51,989 --> 00:47:57,690
Speaker 1: discourse around these matters is something that would begin to

730
00:47:57,750 --> 00:48:01,990
Speaker 1: combat the sort of fragmentation that I'm concerned that we're

731
00:48:02,030 --> 00:48:03,430
Speaker 1: developing more and more in the church.

732
00:48:03,989 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple thoughts. One, to clarify, and I know

733
00:48:09,140 --> 00:48:11,819
Speaker 2: you know this, but just I think it bears worth

734
00:48:11,900 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 2: mentioning that So you came to the text without sort

735
00:48:15,900 --> 00:48:18,830
Speaker 2: of these systematic categories that are often given. It doesn't

736
00:48:18,850 --> 00:48:23,430
Speaker 2: mean you were coming from some placeless existence, right? You

737
00:48:23,469 --> 00:48:26,370
Speaker 2: still came with questions. You still came with who you are, right?

738
00:48:26,450 --> 00:48:29,710
Speaker 2: So it's not as if it's some sort of non-located,

739
00:48:29,790 --> 00:48:33,580
Speaker 2: non-specific reading. And I know you know that, but it's

740
00:48:33,620 --> 00:48:35,940
Speaker 2: worth saying that the answer here isn't just simply to say, well,

741
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: you know, spend a few years and divest yourselves of

742
00:48:39,739 --> 00:48:42,420
Speaker 2: all doctrinal content and now go back and read it

743
00:48:42,460 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 2: because now you read it yeah like that's not necessarily

744
00:48:44,660 --> 00:48:46,660
Speaker 2: not at all there's a lot to be brought from

745
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:51,609
Speaker 2: traditions but the key point here that you're making is

746
00:48:51,650 --> 00:48:55,350
Speaker 2: again i think this has become the lindbeck episode um

747
00:48:55,810 --> 00:48:57,350
Speaker 2: is i think the point that lindbeck's trying to make

748
00:48:57,390 --> 00:48:59,750
Speaker 2: too right so then when he sets up what doctrine

749
00:48:59,930 --> 00:49:02,029
Speaker 2: is while trying to give you that sort of um.

750
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:10,690
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. traditions.

751
00:49:10,730 --> 00:49:13,629
Speaker 2: His goal is to say, understand what this doctrine is.

752
00:49:13,870 --> 00:49:16,169
Speaker 2: And so he calls it, his language is its second order.

753
00:49:16,210 --> 00:49:18,670
Speaker 2: And we've talked about this before, but his basic idea

754
00:49:18,690 --> 00:49:21,859
Speaker 2: of saying its second order is to say, it's not

755
00:49:21,890 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 2: the thing itself. And this is where the trouble comes in,

756
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: as you're saying, where we begin to forget that doctrine

757
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 2: is something derived from the text by local readings, codified

758
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 2: in traditions and communities.

759
00:49:38,620 --> 00:49:38,700
Speaker 1: Yeah.

760
00:49:39,860 --> 00:49:40,900
Speaker 2: And it is the thing itself.

761
00:49:42,820 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

762
00:49:44,940 --> 00:49:48,380
Speaker 2: As an example, as a totally, well, I shouldn't say non-theological,

763
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:52,100
Speaker 2: but seemingly way off topic reading. I remember a few

764
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:58,219
Speaker 2: years ago, I don't know this woman. She lives apparently

765
00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:03,980
Speaker 2: on my block, but around the corner. I couldn't, if

766
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,009
Speaker 2: you put her in a lineup, I wouldn't recognize her.

767
00:50:06,050 --> 00:50:09,379
Speaker 2: I just like that. That side of the block I've

768
00:50:09,420 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 2: never had really interactions with. One of my neighbors was

769
00:50:12,540 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 2: talking about this woman who evidently was divorced some years before.

770
00:50:16,860 --> 00:50:22,230
Speaker 2: And her ex-husband was a longtime friend of this neighbor

771
00:50:22,250 --> 00:50:25,370
Speaker 2: of mine. And this neighbor kept referring to this lady

772
00:50:25,450 --> 00:50:34,029
Speaker 2: as crazy, as mean, as horrible. And as this neighbor

773
00:50:34,050 --> 00:50:36,810
Speaker 2: described it, it became very clear to me, like, Oh,

774
00:50:36,850 --> 00:50:40,939
Speaker 2: so you got all this information from your friend, who

775
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 2: is the one who's divorced from this woman. And now

776
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 2: when you look at this woman, there's no texture, there's

777
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:56,710
Speaker 2: no gradients. She bad, he good. She crazy, he sane.

778
00:50:57,670 --> 00:51:01,150
Speaker 2: Now we can all slip into this tendency, right? But

779
00:51:01,210 --> 00:51:04,790
Speaker 2: for me, as someone who had just had no meat

780
00:51:04,830 --> 00:51:11,620
Speaker 2: in this fight... what this neighbor of mine was saying

781
00:51:11,940 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 2: started to sound suspicious. I was like, I see. So

782
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,460
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to treat this woman as a pariah, as

783
00:51:19,500 --> 00:51:24,410
Speaker 2: this crazy person, because your friend, who is her ex-husband,

784
00:51:26,750 --> 00:51:32,050
Speaker 2: said all this stuff to you that undoubtedly is heavily

785
00:51:32,110 --> 00:51:34,129
Speaker 2: emotionally weighted, right?

786
00:51:34,150 --> 00:51:34,470
Speaker 3: Yeah.

787
00:51:35,219 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 2: And you've just accepted it because you were his friend, right?

788
00:51:37,820 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 2: So as a result, I become a member of the cloud. Okay,

789
00:51:42,739 --> 00:51:44,790
Speaker 2: you have the emotional reason to be tied to this

790
00:51:44,870 --> 00:51:47,090
Speaker 2: narrative as the friend of the person who's giving you

791
00:51:47,130 --> 00:51:50,830
Speaker 2: the narrative. I now, who have no emotional connection to it,

792
00:51:50,910 --> 00:51:54,300
Speaker 2: am supposed to begin to develop that emotional baggage because

793
00:51:54,430 --> 00:51:56,779
Speaker 2: you told me this story based on no knowledge except

794
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,660
Speaker 2: for what this one person said to you, right? And

795
00:51:59,700 --> 00:52:02,100
Speaker 2: for me, that was a quick bow out. Like, okay,

796
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,660
Speaker 2: take it with a grain of salt. And even to

797
00:52:04,700 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 2: this day, I've had no interactions with any of these,

798
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 2: either of these people in this former couples dispute, I guess.

799
00:52:12,989 --> 00:52:13,819
Speaker 2: So it means nothing to me.

800
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:14,470
Speaker 1: Right.

801
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:17,250
Speaker 2: But now you can imagine the other side, right? You

802
00:52:17,290 --> 00:52:19,890
Speaker 2: can imagine her doing the same thing and the cloud

803
00:52:19,930 --> 00:52:22,569
Speaker 2: that exists because of what she said. And it just

804
00:52:22,610 --> 00:52:24,310
Speaker 2: goes bigger and bigger. I think this, I mean, this

805
00:52:24,370 --> 00:52:26,670
Speaker 2: is really how the algorithm works in social media, right?

806
00:52:26,710 --> 00:52:30,450
Speaker 2: It creates a cloud of people who are increasingly distanced

807
00:52:30,489 --> 00:52:34,890
Speaker 2: from the source material. And now you've got, if it works, right?

808
00:52:34,950 --> 00:52:36,660
Speaker 2: Like if I were to buy into it, now I

809
00:52:36,700 --> 00:52:41,060
Speaker 2: begin to have the emotional baggage tied into it so

810
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:45,339
Speaker 2: that I have this strong inclination to say, oh, that

811
00:52:45,420 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 2: person's evil or that thought process is evil, right? In

812
00:52:48,860 --> 00:52:50,930
Speaker 2: some ways, again, this is what Lindbeck is talking about

813
00:52:51,050 --> 00:52:56,750
Speaker 2: that I hear you saying as well, right? Doctrine loses

814
00:52:56,810 --> 00:53:00,390
Speaker 2: its place. The people formulating the doctrine are trying to say,

815
00:53:01,090 --> 00:53:04,170
Speaker 2: we're trying to wrestle with this narrative of the text

816
00:53:04,250 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 2: and all these things that go around the narrative. It's

817
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 2: not strictly narrative, but the overarching thing is a narrative,

818
00:53:10,820 --> 00:53:12,420
Speaker 2: and we're trying to wrestle with it, and the doctrine

819
00:53:12,460 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 2: is a second-order thing that says something about it. But

820
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,299
Speaker 2: the deeper you get into that cloud, what you're left

821
00:53:19,340 --> 00:53:25,569
Speaker 2: with is the second-order doctrine becomes the thing. And that's

822
00:53:25,610 --> 00:53:27,450
Speaker 2: the thing that Limbeck's trying to knock down and say,

823
00:53:27,510 --> 00:53:29,529
Speaker 2: I'm not saying do away with the doctrine. I want

824
00:53:29,550 --> 00:53:32,489
Speaker 2: you to understand what the nature of doctrine is, as

825
00:53:32,530 --> 00:53:35,420
Speaker 2: the title says. And if we begin to understand what

826
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,700
Speaker 2: the nature of the doctrine is, maybe now we can

827
00:53:37,739 --> 00:53:42,219
Speaker 2: actually get back to the first order reality, the narrative itself.

828
00:53:42,700 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 2: Maybe if it's an interpersonal thing, if I really had

829
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 2: a stake in this, I go to that woman who

830
00:53:47,700 --> 00:53:50,230
Speaker 2: is now apparently the crazy person, I say, hey, I

831
00:53:50,270 --> 00:53:52,049
Speaker 2: want you to know that I've heard these things about you.

832
00:53:52,110 --> 00:53:54,009
Speaker 2: I have no reason to think anything one way or

833
00:53:54,050 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 2: the other, but I want you to know that I'm

834
00:53:55,940 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 2: your neighbor. Maybe I should have done that, but honestly,

835
00:53:58,180 --> 00:54:02,610
Speaker 2: our lives never crossed. I'm just not a part of

836
00:54:02,650 --> 00:54:05,870
Speaker 2: that conversation. It's neither here nor there to me. And

837
00:54:05,890 --> 00:54:07,650
Speaker 2: if I saw her in the grocery store or if

838
00:54:07,690 --> 00:54:09,150
Speaker 2: I saw her on a walk, I wouldn't even know

839
00:54:09,170 --> 00:54:12,609
Speaker 2: that that's who we're talking about here. So the doctrine

840
00:54:14,210 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 2: bears nothing on her from my perspective in a way

841
00:54:17,380 --> 00:54:20,879
Speaker 2: that it does for those within that cloud. But that's

842
00:54:20,940 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 2: not to say the doctrine doesn't matter. Maybe she is crazy, right?

843
00:54:24,250 --> 00:54:27,290
Speaker 2: But maybe there's more texture to that than just simply,

844
00:54:27,310 --> 00:54:30,509
Speaker 2: I belong to this cloud that has made the thing

845
00:54:30,570 --> 00:54:35,330
Speaker 2: itself obscured by the doctrine that's been constructed around it.

846
00:54:37,670 --> 00:54:40,750
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's really helpful. I saw a study

847
00:54:40,790 --> 00:54:45,370
Speaker 1: here not too long ago about people who sign petitions online.

848
00:54:46,650 --> 00:54:49,030
Speaker 1: And it's sort of fascinating the way it works. People

849
00:54:49,050 --> 00:54:52,580
Speaker 1: who sign petitions online tend to have these shared characteristics,

850
00:54:52,620 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to remember all of them, but

851
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 1: they Let's say they tend to watch the news every day.

852
00:54:58,260 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 1: They tend to be on Twitter. And I think there

853
00:55:01,260 --> 00:55:03,620
Speaker 1: are a couple of other characteristics. And so the general

854
00:55:03,700 --> 00:55:07,339
Speaker 1: idea of the article was that these people who sign petitions,

855
00:55:07,460 --> 00:55:13,009
Speaker 1: they're part of this sort of cycle, reinforcing cycle. So

856
00:55:13,030 --> 00:55:16,310
Speaker 1: the news will start reporting on something that'll make this

857
00:55:16,370 --> 00:55:20,050
Speaker 1: something seem more important. They see it again on Twitter.

858
00:55:21,180 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 1: They get the petition out. They sign the petition. As

859
00:55:24,500 --> 00:55:29,090
Speaker 1: the petition gains signatures, the news reports on the petition, right?

860
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,509
Speaker 1: And it just sort of cycles around like this. And

861
00:55:32,550 --> 00:55:34,330
Speaker 1: I think in some ways that's what we end up

862
00:55:34,350 --> 00:55:38,069
Speaker 1: doing with doctrine. That's sort of that insular loop, right,

863
00:55:38,110 --> 00:55:42,739
Speaker 1: that we end up getting into within the church. And

864
00:55:42,820 --> 00:55:45,020
Speaker 1: that is part of what we've got to sort of

865
00:55:45,060 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: resist against. I'm with you. I don't want to get

866
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,580
Speaker 1: rid of doctrine. But I do take Lindbeck's point really seriously.

867
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 1: We need to understand what it is. You know, there's

868
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:58,980
Speaker 1: a difference between, and I think, you know, I had

869
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,860
Speaker 1: to learn this really early on as a theological student,

870
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 1: especially in the area I was in, like biblical scholarship. Yes,

871
00:56:08,620 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 1: there's a way to be, I always wanted to be right. Like,

872
00:56:13,380 --> 00:56:16,089
Speaker 1: let me get this right. Because it's important. So you

873
00:56:16,110 --> 00:56:19,049
Speaker 1: kind of want to get it right. In my older age,

874
00:56:19,130 --> 00:56:24,290
Speaker 1: I've moved to, let me get this plausible. Let me

875
00:56:24,330 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 1: do an appropriate reading of the text. That's a shift

876
00:56:27,620 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 1: in language that's a serious shift in attitude and posture.

877
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:37,270
Speaker 1: Because getting it right assumes an awful lot. And I

878
00:56:37,310 --> 00:56:40,010
Speaker 1: think part of what it assumes is that you've narrowed

879
00:56:40,050 --> 00:56:42,450
Speaker 1: down the question so far that you can get it right.

880
00:56:43,390 --> 00:56:45,140
Speaker 1: Because as we've talked about, I think we've used this

881
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 1: analogy on the show before. The Bible is like glitter. Right?

882
00:56:53,660 --> 00:56:55,620
Speaker 1: My daughters used to play with glitter when they were kids.

883
00:56:56,060 --> 00:56:59,100
Speaker 1: And you'd never get that stuff up off the floor.

884
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:00,989
Speaker 1: You'd think you'd have it, and then you'd go back

885
00:57:01,050 --> 00:57:04,109
Speaker 1: and you'd find glitter all over the place. It just

886
00:57:04,150 --> 00:57:08,030
Speaker 1: keeps popping up. It spontaneously combusts as glitter or something.

887
00:57:09,370 --> 00:57:12,819
Speaker 1: Here it is. But I think I think that way

888
00:57:12,860 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 1: about the biblical text an awful lot. I can read

889
00:57:15,620 --> 00:57:20,090
Speaker 1: a text that I've read a hundred times and understand

890
00:57:20,130 --> 00:57:22,420
Speaker 1: it differently this time when I come back to it.

891
00:57:22,810 --> 00:57:26,870
Speaker 1: That's the glitter. And so getting it right, I think

892
00:57:26,930 --> 00:57:30,550
Speaker 1: sometimes we assume that we can close off this interpretation

893
00:57:30,610 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 1: of the text. We can say, now we have this

894
00:57:33,020 --> 00:57:37,620
Speaker 1: text mastered. We understand it perfectly. There's no remainder in

895
00:57:37,660 --> 00:57:40,780
Speaker 1: that text for us to learn anything new from. And

896
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,500
Speaker 1: I think that that's a little bit dangerous. And so

897
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 1: I've sort of tried to shift my language and my posture.

898
00:57:45,740 --> 00:57:48,420
Speaker 1: And I think that the whole church would do well

899
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:52,070
Speaker 1: to sort of shift in that direction to understand that. Yeah.

900
00:57:52,110 --> 00:57:56,710
Speaker 1: I think our understandings are very plausible. I think they provide, um,

901
00:57:57,250 --> 00:58:01,710
Speaker 1: boundaries that will, um, you know, like something like the

902
00:58:01,770 --> 00:58:07,470
Speaker 1: Nicene Creed, um, Nicene Creed might even be a great example, right? Um,

903
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 1: this was my understanding of it. And you correct me

904
00:58:10,980 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong. This is why the Eastern Orthodox church

905
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,900
Speaker 1: sort of, um, steps away from the other arms of

906
00:58:17,940 --> 00:58:23,420
Speaker 1: Christendom is because you have the spirit proceeding, uh, proceeding

907
00:58:23,460 --> 00:58:27,420
Speaker 1: from the sun, um, you know, the, the Philly. Okay.

908
00:58:28,340 --> 00:58:39,230
Speaker 1: And that was a later addition, right? And that addition, Right.

909
00:58:39,310 --> 00:58:42,910
Speaker 1: And that addition, right, the Eastern Orthodox Church very much

910
00:58:43,010 --> 00:58:46,290
Speaker 1: disagreed with. But if you think about the Nicene Creed

911
00:58:46,310 --> 00:58:51,590
Speaker 1: without that, right, prior to that addition, it provides the

912
00:58:51,730 --> 00:58:55,770
Speaker 1: really broad boundaries for what it means to be Christian.

913
00:58:55,810 --> 00:58:58,310
Speaker 1: It's hard to believe that you could not believe some

914
00:58:58,350 --> 00:59:01,270
Speaker 1: of what's in the Nicene Creed and still believe in

915
00:59:01,290 --> 00:59:04,550
Speaker 1: the authority of Scripture. I think in its broadest sense,

916
00:59:04,610 --> 00:59:08,340
Speaker 1: doctrine can help with that. Where it just gets strange

917
00:59:08,380 --> 00:59:09,150
Speaker 1: is when we get it.

918
00:59:09,410 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 3: Whittled down and whittled down and whittled down and whittled

919
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:13,340
Speaker 3: down and whittled down and it's like it has to

920
00:59:13,380 --> 00:59:17,970
Speaker 3: be this um you know it um i keep going

921
00:59:17,990 --> 00:59:20,070
Speaker 3: back to the young earth creation stuff because i just

922
00:59:20,470 --> 00:59:23,130
Speaker 3: i've always found that to be frustrating when i as

923
00:59:23,150 --> 00:59:25,310
Speaker 3: an old testament guy but it's like if you don't

924
00:59:25,330 --> 00:59:28,470
Speaker 3: believe in young earth creationism in these specific ways, if

925
00:59:28,510 --> 00:59:31,230
Speaker 3: you don't interpret these texts in exactly this way, you're

926
00:59:31,250 --> 00:59:34,450
Speaker 3: denying inerrancy, you're outside the authority of scripture.

927
00:59:34,860 --> 00:59:40,060
Speaker 1: Those have been real conversations. And I think those are

928
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 1: the kind of conversations that create this sort of fragmentation

929
00:59:44,740 --> 00:59:47,460
Speaker 1: within the body of Christ and that are truly problematic.

930
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:52,220
Speaker 2: Well said. And I think what that, the thing that

931
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:55,660
Speaker 2: I feel like we have to keep reemphasizing is there

932
00:59:55,700 --> 00:59:58,670
Speaker 2: is a purpose in the doctrines. The reality is to

933
00:59:58,790 --> 01:00:04,030
Speaker 2: recognize it as an attempt from the outside to make

934
01:00:04,130 --> 01:00:06,830
Speaker 2: sense of what's the actual primary, and that's the work

935
01:00:06,870 --> 01:00:11,510
Speaker 2: of God and the narrative and the way in which

936
01:00:12,130 --> 01:00:15,140
Speaker 2: God is drawing us into that narrative as we exist

937
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 2: now in that particular space and time. And the goal

938
01:00:20,300 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 2: of doctrine is to try to make sense of it

939
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 2: in a time and a place for a people. The

940
01:00:25,180 --> 01:00:27,380
Speaker 2: trouble with it is that that doctrine ends up being

941
01:00:27,810 --> 01:00:31,790
Speaker 2: codified in our minds and hearts as something universal right

942
01:00:33,830 --> 01:00:36,310
Speaker 2: and then it's bequeathed to the next generation or to

943
01:00:36,330 --> 01:00:39,230
Speaker 2: the larger community to the cloud who has no understanding

944
01:00:39,250 --> 01:00:41,570
Speaker 2: of that larger dynamic because they have other things to

945
01:00:41,590 --> 01:00:42,970
Speaker 2: worry about right I think about when I was in

946
01:00:43,010 --> 01:00:46,490
Speaker 2: college I was in a history class and our professor

947
01:00:46,530 --> 01:00:51,270
Speaker 2: had us read a modern philosopher who I'll leave unnamed

948
01:00:51,350 --> 01:00:53,510
Speaker 2: because if I name it then we now have an

949
01:00:53,530 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 2: emotional response that's inevitably going to come up and I

950
01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 2: was you know I was I think third year of

951
01:00:58,420 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 2: college something like that I have by no means an

952
01:01:01,580 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 2: expert but I'd been I'd been enculturated into that dynamic

953
01:01:06,580 --> 01:01:12,710
Speaker 2: yeah of this philosopher equals evil and the truth is

954
01:01:12,730 --> 01:01:16,230
Speaker 2: is that there was nothing in this reading that I

955
01:01:16,270 --> 01:01:20,790
Speaker 2: had any good reasons to think of as evil but

956
01:01:20,830 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 2: I was already inclined because of the implicit doctrine at

957
01:01:25,420 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 2: play culturally socially that to think that this was evil.

958
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 2: And I remember a friend of mine and an acquaintance

959
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 2: of mine, we didn't really hang out, but an acquaintance

960
01:01:32,900 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 2: of mine who was in the class came up to

961
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:39,250
Speaker 2: me outside of class after reading it and was actually

962
01:01:39,290 --> 01:01:42,870
Speaker 2: really compelled by that selection we read. And I got

963
01:01:42,990 --> 01:01:45,930
Speaker 2: so mad at him. And that's where the emotional reaction

964
01:01:46,050 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 2: clicked in. And it stuck with me to this day

965
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:53,660
Speaker 2: as an embarrassing episode in my life to learn from,

966
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:58,939
Speaker 2: realizing that I got mad at my acquaintance Yeah.

967
01:01:58,960 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.

968
01:02:28,220 --> 01:02:32,110
Speaker 2: That cause the deeper fragmentation within our faith where we're

969
01:02:32,130 --> 01:02:35,730
Speaker 2: not even inclined to even pay attention to what someone

970
01:02:36,410 --> 01:02:39,650
Speaker 2: in another aisle in ultimately the same larger cathedral of

971
01:02:39,670 --> 01:02:43,419
Speaker 2: the faith is sitting, right? Because of the boundary lines

972
01:02:43,500 --> 01:02:44,140
Speaker 2: of the aisles.

973
01:02:47,660 --> 01:02:54,350
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. No, very good. Well, I think that covers

974
01:02:54,410 --> 01:02:58,250
Speaker 1: it sufficiently. I think nailing down that we actually don't

975
01:02:58,310 --> 01:03:01,510
Speaker 1: disagree with doctrine and that we believe that there's a

976
01:03:01,550 --> 01:03:04,010
Speaker 1: value and function to it. At the end of the day,

977
01:03:04,050 --> 01:03:07,190
Speaker 1: I think what both of us are saying to some

978
01:03:07,210 --> 01:03:11,450
Speaker 1: degree is that the Bible should be the final authority

979
01:03:11,490 --> 01:03:15,410
Speaker 1: for life and faith. And we shouldn't fool ourselves into

980
01:03:15,450 --> 01:03:17,470
Speaker 1: thinking that doctrine never gets in the way of that.

981
01:03:18,610 --> 01:03:21,900
Speaker 1: And so we've got to be diligent about making sure

982
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 1: that the doctrines don't start dividing us in ways that, uh,

983
01:03:27,140 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 1: are inappropriate, that they don't create an animosity and, uh, uh, distrust, uh, across, um,

984
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 1: Christian lines, um, that we are all part of one body.

985
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 1: And so, um, I think that that gets to the

986
01:03:42,820 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 1: root of what we're concerned with, with fragmentation. So we'll,

987
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:50,300
Speaker 1: we'll close it off there and, um, Yeah, appreciate the conversation, man.

988
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:53,430
Speaker 1: This is helpful. Hopefully everybody else enjoyed it, and we

989
01:03:53,450 --> 01:03:55,570
Speaker 1: will catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian.

990
01:03:55,830 --> 01:03:58,150
Speaker 1: Take care, everybody. Just want to take a second to

991
01:03:58,170 --> 01:04:00,610
Speaker 1: thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with

992
01:04:00,690 --> 01:04:04,350
Speaker 1: us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com,

993
01:04:04,370 --> 01:04:07,510
Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network.

994
01:04:07,890 --> 01:04:11,070
Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.