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Speaker 1: If the historicity of the Bible can be validated, even

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Speaker 1: down to its minor details, that actually adds to the

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Speaker 1: credibility of the whole. I'm also happy to report that

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Speaker 1: in 150 years, there is not a single important finding

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Speaker 1: of biblical archaeology that contradicts the Bible.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast as I welcome my

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Speaker 2: friend Dinesh D'Souza. Dinesh, my goodness, Dinesh, you do a

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Speaker 2: little bit of everything. You're a speaker, you're an author,

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Speaker 2: you're a filmmaker, and you have so many gifts and

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Speaker 2: talents and you've been applying those lately. In fact, the

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Speaker 2: last three years of your life, if I'm not mistaken,

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Speaker 2: to a brand new book that is titled The Stones

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Speaker 2: Cry Out. And we're going to be talking about that today.

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Speaker 2: But you're also the author of a lot of other books.

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Speaker 2: And the first book I became aware of that you

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Speaker 2: wrote is titled, What's So Great About America? And I

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Speaker 2: think in this time in which we're living, as we've

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Speaker 2: celebrated 250 years as a nation, and we've reflected on

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Speaker 2: our remarkable history, there's really no country like us. You

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Speaker 2: wrote this book, and it seems like a whole new

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Speaker 2: generation would benefit from reading that book, but maybe just

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Speaker 2: in a nutshell, what is so great about America?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think what's great about America is not merely

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Speaker 1: that it provides a surprisingly abundant life for the ordinary guy.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the first things that struck me when

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Speaker 1: I came as a teenager at the age of 17.

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Speaker 1: I was I realized that the rich guy lives well

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Speaker 1: everywhere in the world, but I was quite startled to

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Speaker 1: see how well the ordinary fellow, the common man, so

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Speaker 1: to speak, lives in America. But then as I went

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Speaker 1: to college in the United States, had a career in

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Speaker 1: politics and journalism, later making documentary films, I realized that

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Speaker 1: the idea of America is bigger than that. I think

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Speaker 1: the core of it is the notion of the self-directed life.

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Speaker 1: In other words, in America, we have a chance to

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Speaker 1: be the architect of our own destiny. It's almost like

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Speaker 1: your life is a work of art, and you are

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Speaker 1: the artist. You're in the driver's seat of your own future.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is really why young people all

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Speaker 1: over the world are magnetically drawn to America.

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Speaker 3: It's this sort of sense of possibility, not just.

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Speaker 1: Of having an American dream, but being able to convert

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Speaker 1: that dream into something real. And I've done that myself

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Speaker 1: in my own life.

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Speaker 2: Yes. You know, and what is amazing right now, especially

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Speaker 2: among our college students and younger people in general, there

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Speaker 2: is a renewed interest in communism, socialism and communism. Why

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Speaker 2: do you think that has become so prominent and popular?

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Speaker 1: I have a perhaps surprising answer to this question. It

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Speaker 1: is that the capitalism that is the rival to communism

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Speaker 1: has become somewhat twisted.

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Speaker 3: And disfigured in America.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Think about it this way.

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Speaker 1: You know, you have congressmen who are making laws about

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Speaker 1: things that they have prior knowledge of because the law

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Speaker 1: is being made by them. And yet they have relative

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Speaker 1: freedom to invest in stocks involving things that they're making

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Speaker 1: decisions about.

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Speaker 3: That's kind of an insider advantage, right?

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Speaker 1: Banks get an insider advantage because they get money from

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Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve, which prints that money out of thin air.

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Speaker 1: You have defense contractors and other types of industries that

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Speaker 1: have lobbyists.

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Speaker 3: So whenever Congress has money to.

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Speaker 1: Appropriate, they're able to get their industry to have a

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Speaker 1: favored status. So I think the problem here is this,

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Speaker 1: that we are dealing with a capitalism that isn't a

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Speaker 1: sort of honest capitalism. Some people call it a crony capitalism,

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Speaker 1: a kleptocratic capitalism.

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Speaker 3: I think all of that.

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Speaker 1: Makes it easier for the socialists to say, well, guess what?

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Speaker 1: The capitalists are practicing favoritism. They are redistributing money their way.

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Speaker 1: So we're offering a different kind of redistribution, and you

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Speaker 1: might at least get something out of it.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's harder to argue.

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Speaker 1: Against communism when you become a defender of a capitalism

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Speaker 1: that is really not capitalism in the true sense.

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Speaker 2: Well, that comes back to the roots of our country,

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Speaker 2: our very distinct Christian roots. I think it was John

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Speaker 2: Adams that said something along the lines of, this Constitution

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Speaker 2: was made for a religious and a moral people. Today

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Speaker 2: we might upgrade that or change the wording and say,

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Speaker 2: It was made for Christian people. I mean, people who

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Speaker 2: believe that the Bible is true. We have an agreement

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Speaker 2: on what is true and what is not true. And

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Speaker 2: we've lost sight of that. So it's capitalism devoid of

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Speaker 2: Christianity or devoid of a moral base. They need to

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Speaker 2: know more about it. Our country isn't just about capitalism,

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Speaker 2: though that is certainly better than communism in general, but

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Speaker 2: not when it's abused, as you've just pointed out. But

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Speaker 2: they need to get the bigger picture, don't you think?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: To give just a small example that I'm plucking out

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Speaker 1: of my memory from history, when the banker J.P. Morgan

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Speaker 1: bought the companies of Andrew Carnegie, the two of them

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Speaker 1: met for lunch.

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Speaker 3: And J.P. Morgan said to Andrew Carnegie, I'd like to

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Speaker 3: buy your companies. What are they worth? Andrew Carnegie pulled

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Speaker 3: out a.

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Speaker 1: Sheet of paper and wrote down the value of his companies,

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Speaker 1: which he estimated from his head, added it up and

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Speaker 1: showed the total to J.P.

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Speaker 2: Morgan.

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Speaker 3: And J.P. Morgan goes, I agree. I agree to pay

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Speaker 3: that sum. Think about this.

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Speaker 1: Think about the level of trust and honesty it takes

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Speaker 1: to make a transaction worth this. Hundreds of millions of dollars,

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Speaker 1: billions of dollars in today's money. And these two men

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Speaker 1: had so much confidence that each other could be completely

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Speaker 1: trusted that J.P. Morgan didn't demand any kind of audit.

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Speaker 1: He's like, Andrew Carnegie, you're a man of your word.

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Speaker 1: If you say your company is worth X, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to pay X.

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Speaker 2: Amazing. Yeah. Your word is your bond. We've certainly drifted

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Speaker 2: from that, among other things. Well, you have a brand

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Speaker 2: new book out. that is titled The Stones Cry Out.

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Speaker 2: So what is this book about, Dinesh?

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Speaker 1: Well, as you know, Pastor Greg, I've written books in

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Speaker 1: the past on Christian apologetics, but I wasn't exposed to

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Speaker 1: biblical archaeology until I went to Israel for the first

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Speaker 1: time the end of 2022. I was very charmed to

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Speaker 1: be kind of in the land of the Bible. These

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Speaker 1: are places I had heard about and sort of dreamed

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Speaker 1: about since I was a kid. But then I was

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Speaker 1: exposed a little bit to the artifacts that had come

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Speaker 1: out of the ground, some of them in the last

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Speaker 1: 50 years or even more, but some of them just

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Speaker 1: in the last 10 years. And they are authenticating or

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Speaker 1: validating the historicity of the Bible, the Old Testament and

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Speaker 1: the New. And I was like, I turned to my

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Speaker 1: wife and I said, wow. why isn't this information being

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Speaker 1: shouted from the rooftops of every synagogue and church? And

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Speaker 1: part of the reason we came up with was that

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Speaker 1: the archaeologists are secular. Most of them have appointments in universities.

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Speaker 1: They don't want to be seen as proving the Bible,

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Speaker 1: even though they're doing so-called Near Eastern Archaeology. So I thought,

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Speaker 1: this is truly fascinating, because if the historicity of the

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Speaker 1: Bible can be validated, even down to its minor details—

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Speaker 1: that actually adds to the credibility of the whole. So

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Speaker 1: I embarked on a kind of three-year project to really

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Speaker 1: learn the field. Biblical archaeology has been around for about

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Speaker 1: 150 years, since the second half of the 19th century.

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Speaker 1: It's made hundreds and hundreds of discoveries in the areas

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Speaker 1: that relate to the Bible.

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Speaker 3: And so this book is a kind of summary of.

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Speaker 1: What we now know from biblical archaeology that corroborates the Bible.

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Speaker 1: I'm also happy to report that in 150 years, there

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Speaker 1: is not a single important finding of biblical archaeology that

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Speaker 1: contradicts the Bible.

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Speaker 2: Wow. So is your next film going to be titled Indiana, D'Souza,

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Speaker 2: and the Lost Ark?

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Speaker 1: I really do like the comparison. I'm sort of missing

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Speaker 1: the Indiana Jones hat, and I haven't yet located the

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Speaker 1: Ark of the Covenant, to be sure.

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Speaker 3: And, you know, I got to tell you, Greg.

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Speaker 1: A lot of archaeology, as I've now experienced it, I've

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Speaker 1: actually been in some of these digs, is very …

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Speaker 1: sort of painstaking work. And not only that, but it

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Speaker 1: doesn't always excavate big things. You know, we think of

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Speaker 1: Agatha Christie's novels, which are set against the spectacular backdrop

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Speaker 1: of the pyramids. Or we think of Indiana Jones and

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Speaker 1: these sort of great cities coming out of the ground.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes what will come out of the.

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Speaker 1: Clay seal. These seals were used to seal correspondence. They're

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Speaker 1: made of clay. The clay impressions and the correspondence is lost,

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Speaker 1: but the seal hardens.

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Speaker 3: The clay hardens and remains. So the clay.

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Speaker 1: Seal will have a guy's name on it. And the

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Speaker 1: archaeologists won't even know who that guy is. They'll stick

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Speaker 1: the clay seal somewhere in a museum or an academic

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Speaker 1: storage facility.

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Speaker 3: And then three years.

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Speaker 1: Later, somebody looks at that seal and they go, whoa,

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Speaker 1: that guy's in the book of Isaiah or that guy's

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Speaker 1: in the book of Jeremiah. And that guy might be

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Speaker 1: a cameo appearance in the Bible, not an important figure.

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Speaker 1: He's mentioned in two lines and never again. And yet,

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Speaker 1: once you're looking at that clay seal, you realize that

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Speaker 1: this guy, you know, Jehukal, son of Shalamiah, has now

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Speaker 1: jumped into the pages of history via the pathway of archaeology.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, I remember when it was said by some, well,

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Speaker 2: the Bible's not true. It talks so much about Pontius Pilate.

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Speaker 2: There's no historical record of a Pontius Pilate. But then,

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Speaker 2: of course, they found the Pilate stone. And it seems,

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Speaker 2: do you know Jeremiah Johnson? Of course. Yes. It seems

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Speaker 2: like he mentioned something about a pilot ring that's been

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Speaker 2: discovered more recently. And you alluded to the fact that

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Speaker 2: some recent discoveries have been really significant. So what are

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Speaker 2: some of those recent discoveries?

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Speaker 1: Well, just in the last several days, archaeologists have confirmed

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Speaker 1: the location of biblical Bethsaida, which is a location where

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Speaker 1: Jesus did miracles. What happens is sometimes these biblical places

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Speaker 1: get lost. I mean, obviously, biblical places don't come with

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Speaker 1: name tags. You know, you've got to correctly identify a location. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'll give an example. Since you mentioned Pontius Pilate, you know,

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Speaker 1: my mind flashes to the great trial scene of Jesus.

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Speaker 3: He's arrested. He's taken to the home of the high priest.

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Speaker 1: And so the major figures here are King Herod, Pontius Pilate,

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Speaker 1: the high priest Caiaphas.

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Speaker 3: And of course, the accused man, Jesus.

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Speaker 1: Now, there's really interesting archaeology on all four of these men,

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Speaker 1: But I want to focus for a moment on Caiaphas,

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Speaker 1: because the Bible just gives one name.

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Speaker 3: He's Caiaphas.

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Speaker 1: But the Jewish historian named Josephus tells us that his

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Speaker 1: first name is Joseph Caiaphas.

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Speaker 3: Now, if we.

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Speaker 1: If we fast forward 2,000 years, they were recently digging

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Speaker 1: in the aristocratic or priestly quarter of Jerusalem. And out

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Speaker 1: of the ground come a bunch of these, they're called ossuaries,

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Speaker 1: they're stone boxes. And in the first century AD, if

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Speaker 1: you died, your bones.

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Speaker 3: Were taken out of the tomb.

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Speaker 1: You were buried in a tomb, but then when your

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Speaker 1: body decayed, they would take your bones out and put

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Speaker 1: in a box and put your name on it.

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Speaker 3: So that's the ossuary.

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Speaker 1: So these archaeologists are looking at about 20 of these ossuaries,

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Speaker 1: and one of them is particularly ornate, and it stands out,

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Speaker 1: and they look more closely, and the name on it

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Speaker 1: is as follows. Yehoshaph Bar-Kayapha. So, Yehoshaph is Joseph, Bar

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Speaker 1: is son of, Caiaphas, Caiaphas. And you look inside the box,

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Speaker 1: and it's the bones of a 60-year-old man. And the

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Speaker 1: bones are then dated, and they date to the first

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Speaker 1: century A.D., So it's Caiaphas.

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Speaker 3: Think about it.

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Speaker 1: You've preached about these great scenes where Caiaphas is stirring

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Speaker 1: up the Sanhedrin, and then they go to Pilate, who is,

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Speaker 1: of course, reluctant to crucify Jesus, but Caiaphas is insistent.

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Speaker 1: This man, this villain of the Bible, we're not just

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Speaker 1: talking about his name popping out on a stone inscription

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Speaker 1: or some sort of a writing on the wall. You're

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Speaker 1: actually looking at his bones. So this is what archaeology

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Speaker 1: gives you, this chilling feeling. These real people and places

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Speaker 1: and events kind of spring to life. And I think

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Speaker 1: it's a great encouragement to the believer and a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a bafflement or it confounds the skeptic.

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Speaker 2: Yes. On my last trip to Israel, they took me

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Speaker 2: to a site that had at that point not been

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Speaker 2: made open to the public yet. the Pool of Bethesda.

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Speaker 2: And what was so exciting to me about that is

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Speaker 2: here's this narrow pathway that they said Jesus would have

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Speaker 2: walked across on his way to the temple. Now, you know,

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Speaker 2: people always want to know where did Jesus walk? And

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Speaker 2: the problem is there's layers of civilization in Jerusalem. You know,

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Speaker 2: the Crusaders built over this, and someone else built over that.

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Speaker 2: And so a lot of what Jesus— the places where Christ

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Speaker 2: actually walked are 30 feet below. But there's a couple

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Speaker 2: of spots of southern steps. We know he would have

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Speaker 2: been on those steps somewhere. But when you walk past

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Speaker 2: the Pool of Bethesda, you are on the actual path

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Speaker 2: that Christ himself would have walked. Have you seen that

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Speaker 2: one in particular? And do you have anything you've discovered

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Speaker 2: about that site?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I want to.

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Speaker 1: There are really two famous pools that have been that

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Speaker 1: were lost to history and have been discovered very recently.

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Speaker 3: The pool of Bethesda and the pool of Siloam.

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Speaker 1: Now, both of these are highly significant because Jesus performed miracles.

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Speaker 2: At each one.

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Speaker 3: The Pool of Siloam is huge.

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Speaker 1: It's the size of an Olympic swimming pool. And for

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Speaker 1: a long time, historians thought that these pools were going

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Speaker 1: to be small places for ritual bats. But it turned

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Speaker 1: out that these pools were huge and out-of-town Jews, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, is including Jesus, right? Jesus lived in

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Speaker 1: the northern part of Israel. He would come to Jerusalem

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Speaker 1: for worship. holy days or holidays. He would bathe in

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Speaker 1: the pool of Siloam or cleanse himself ritually, and then

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Speaker 1: he would walk the pilgrimage road about 500 meters and.

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Speaker 3: To the temple.

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Speaker 1: So, like you said, there are certain places where people

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Speaker 1: don't know exactly where Jesus walked. They'll say, well, the

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Speaker 1: Via Dolorosa is over here, or no, we think it's

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Speaker 1: over there. But it seems beyond a doubt that he

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Speaker 1: would have bathed in this particular pool and walked this

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Speaker 1: pilgrimage road to the temple, because that was standard for

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Speaker 1: out-of-town Jews in Jesus's time.

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Speaker 2: One of your thoughts on the garden tomb? Do you

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Speaker 2: believe that? What do you think? How would you rate that? Like,

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Speaker 2: I think 90% that's a tomb Jesus was buried in, 50%, 40%,

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Speaker 2: or I just don't know.

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Speaker 3: No, I think that.

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Speaker 1: For some time there was a kind of a legitimate

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Speaker 1: dispute about the site of Jesus' crucifixion. Is it at

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Speaker 1: the site of the garden tomb or the site of

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Speaker 1: the Church of the Holy Sepulchre? Now, the best argument

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Speaker 1: for the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is that in

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Speaker 1: the second century, by the way, just a few decades

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Speaker 1: after Jesus' death and after the apostles lived in the

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Speaker 1: Roman emperor Hadrian decided to stamp out all the Christian sites.

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Speaker 1: And he knew what they were because there were Christians

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Speaker 1: at that time alive who had known the apostles. So

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Speaker 1: what does Hadrian do? He goes and he builds pagan

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Speaker 1: monuments on top of those sites.

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Speaker 2: Interesting.

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Speaker 1: And ironically, this kind of despiser of Christianity unwittingly ends

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Speaker 1: up marking some of those sites by doing this. So

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Speaker 1: in the 4th century when Constantine converted... to Christianity. He

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Speaker 1: sent his mother to Jerusalem. She just knew where to look, right?

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Speaker 1: She went and found all those pagan sites. She took

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Speaker 1: them down, and she usually built churches right on top

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Speaker 1: of that. Now, that's the side of the Church of

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Speaker 1: the Holy Sepulchre, which has been for centuries the traditional

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Speaker 1: side of the crucifixion. In the 20th century, some people

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Speaker 1: began to doubt that because They thought that the Church

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Speaker 1: of the Holy Sepulchre was inside the city of Jerusalem.

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Speaker 1: And as you know from the Bible, Jesus was crucified

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Speaker 1: outside the city. So this was the kind of serious

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Speaker 1: objection to that particular site. But subsequent archaeological work, more recent,

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Speaker 1: has confirmed that Jerusalem was obviously much smaller in the

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Speaker 1: old days than it is later. So as it turns out,

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Speaker 1: in Jesus's time, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, that site,

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Speaker 1: was indeed outside the city, just as the Bible says.

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Speaker 1: And for that reason, I think that is the most

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Speaker 1: likely spot for Jesus's crucifixion.

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Speaker 2: Fascinating. You have written, and I quote, there's only one

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Speaker 2: nation in the world whose identity and very existence is

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Speaker 2: based on a book. That nation is Israel, and that

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Speaker 2: book is the Bible. You believe that the modern state

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Speaker 2: of Israel, if I'm not mistaken, is a fulfillment of

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Speaker 2: Bible prophecy. When the Jews returned to their homeland and

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Speaker 2: established a nation in 1948, you believe that was part

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Speaker 2: of God's plan. Am I right?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I think that it is predicted more than once, several

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Speaker 1: times in the Bible, that the Jews will be scattered

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Speaker 1: to the ends of the earth and and they will return. Now,

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Speaker 1: in the past, the Jews have been scattered, but not

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Speaker 1: to the ends of the earth. After the Assyrian invasion,

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Speaker 1: some Jews were relocated into Assyria. After the Babylonian invasion,

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Speaker 1: some Jews were relocated to Babylonia and later Persia. But

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Speaker 1: the notion of Jews being scattered to the ends of

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Speaker 1: the earth, taking that kind of literally and returning, that's

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Speaker 1: only happened once. And not only has it happened once...

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Speaker 1: It's never happened to any other people. So I think

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Speaker 1: it is of great biblical significance. Now, I realize there

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Speaker 1: are some people today who say, well, you know, the

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Speaker 1: Jews went to Europe and they intermarried and so on.

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Speaker 3: And all of that may be true.

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Speaker 1: But nevertheless, I think that for these people who were

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Speaker 1: scattered 2000 years ago to come.

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Speaker 2: Back, Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Extremely unlikely.

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Speaker 1: For most of the centuries, you would have said, there

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Speaker 1: is really no way for this to happen.

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Speaker 3: But it did happen.

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Speaker 1: And so, yes, I do think that not only is

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Speaker 1: it a fulfillment of prophecy, but it surely has to

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Speaker 1: be taken as the single most important indicator of the

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Speaker 1: last age or of the end times. In other words,

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Speaker 1: we've kind of come full circle with the Jews.

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Speaker 2: Yes. And You know, there's no doubt that there's a

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Speaker 2: connection to the Holocaust because after the loss of six

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Speaker 2: million Jewish people, I think they understood that we need

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Speaker 2: our own homeland. And it was as if on cue.

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Speaker 2: And I believe they were on cue because actually, according

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Speaker 2: to Ezekiel 37, 38, 39, it's a sign of the

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Speaker 2: last days. He even says repeatedly that this will happen

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Speaker 2: in the last days. So it seems to me that

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Speaker 2: this is an indication or a fulfillment of Bible prophecy

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Speaker 2: that Christ is coming back.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's an archaeological tie-in to this, which is

365
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Speaker 1: that the greatest discovery of biblical archaeology in the 20th

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Speaker 1: century is the Dead Sea Scrolls. And what does the

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Speaker 1: Dead Sea Scrolls do? Well, they basically confirm the accuracy

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Speaker 1: of the Hebrew Bible. The oldest Hebrew Bible prior to

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Speaker 1: the Dead Sea Scrolls was from about 1000 AD. So

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Speaker 1: think of it, more than a millennium after the events

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Speaker 1: that it's talking about. So a lot of skeptics were like,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, the scribes could have made changes, they

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Speaker 1: could have made additions and subtractions. How do we know

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Speaker 1: that the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament that we're reading now,

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Speaker 1: is like the same one that Jesus read? Well, the

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Speaker 1: Dead Sea Scrolls, which were dated back to somewhere between

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Speaker 1: the 3rd century BC, before Jesus— to about the first

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Speaker 1: century B.C. or even A.D., they confirmed that the Hebrew

379
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Speaker 1: Bible had not been altered, had not been changed in

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Speaker 1: any meaningful way.

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Speaker 3: And guess what? What was the year that the Dead

382
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Speaker 3: Sea Scrolls were discovered? Answer is.

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Speaker 1: 1947, one year before the founding of the state of Israel,

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Speaker 1: the nation of Israel. So it's almost as if the

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Speaker 1: ancestral history, the presence of the Jews in their ancient homeland,

386
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Speaker 1: the kind of great charter of the Jews, namely their

387
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Speaker 1: Hebrew Bible, is validated 12 months before Israel is reconstituted

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Speaker 1: as a nation.

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Speaker 2: Wow, it's incredible. So if you were talking to a nonbeliever, Dinesh,

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Speaker 2: and you were going to argue the reliability of Scripture

391
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Speaker 2: on archaeology alone, what archaeological discovery would you refer to

392
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Speaker 2: that you think is one of the more compelling?

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Speaker 1: Well, if I had to just pick an example, you know,

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Speaker 1: just right off the top of my head, and I

395
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Speaker 1: picked this one because it is one that the skeptics.

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Speaker 3: Were gloating over for a long time.

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Speaker 1: When the Israelites are crossing over from Egypt through the desert,

398
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Speaker 1: they're coming to the Promised Land, they have to go

399
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Speaker 1: through Jordan, which is at that.

400
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Speaker 3: Time Moabite territory.

401
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Speaker 1: The Moabites are the enemies of the Israelites, and the

402
00:23:00,155 --> 00:23:04,894
Speaker 1: king of Moab, Balak, He rounds up a fortune teller

403
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Speaker 1: named Balaam, or Balaam, son of Beor, and he tells

404
00:23:09,905 --> 00:23:11,784
Speaker 1: this guy, you need to curse the Israelites.

405
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Speaker 3: It'll give them all kinds of problems.

406
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Speaker 1: And this Balaam guy is ready to do it, but

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Speaker 1: the Bible says that God stops him. God prevents him

408
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Speaker 1: from cursing the Israelites. Now, In the Bible, this Balaam

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Speaker 1: has a donkey. It's a talking donkey. So you can

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Speaker 1: just imagine the skeptics are like, this is ridiculous. This

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Speaker 1: thing is all made up. It's obviously some kind of

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Speaker 1: preposterous legend. Except, let's come to a few decades ago.

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Speaker 1: They're digging in Jordan, and these are secular archaeologists, and

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Speaker 1: they find an old plaster inscription.

415
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Speaker 3: And it says as follows, the.

416
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Speaker 1: Warnings and sayings of Balaam, son of Beor. So number one,

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Speaker 1: it's Balaam, same name. And you might say, well, there

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Speaker 1: could be two Balaams or three Balaams, but it's Balaam,

419
00:23:59,354 --> 00:24:02,195
Speaker 1: son of Beor, same dad. Not only that, it's in

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00:24:02,215 --> 00:24:05,094
Speaker 1: the right location, which is Jordan, Moabite territory.

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Speaker 3: And finally, what's his job?

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Speaker 1: The warnings and sayings of Balaam, son of Beor, indicates

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Speaker 1: he's some sort of a soothsayer.

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Speaker 3: He's some sort of a fortune teller.

425
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Speaker 1: So this Balaam, again, this preposterous character with the talking donkey,

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Speaker 1: is now historically validated. And so my argument to the

427
00:24:24,185 --> 00:24:27,965
Speaker 1: skeptics goes something like this. Look, You cannot, with archaeology,

428
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Speaker 1: prove the theology of the Bible. I'm not trying to

429
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Speaker 1: prove the miracles. But guess what? If the archaeology is

430
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Speaker 1: true down to its minute detail, stretching over the entire

431
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Speaker 1: 2,100-year history of the Bible, all the way from the

432
00:24:44,834 --> 00:24:47,994
Speaker 1: patriarchs to the book of Acts, if I can show

433
00:24:48,034 --> 00:24:52,515
Speaker 1: you 100 archaeological artifacts that that corroborate the Bible, with

434
00:24:52,574 --> 00:24:56,304
Speaker 1: not a single one going in the opposite direction, doesn't

435
00:24:56,875 --> 00:25:00,404
Speaker 1: that enhance the credibility of the Bible.

436
00:25:00,125 --> 00:25:00,645
Speaker 3: As a whole?

437
00:25:01,625 --> 00:25:05,204
Speaker 2: Yes. Our mutual friend, Frank Turek, you know, who'd go

438
00:25:05,225 --> 00:25:08,674
Speaker 2: out on college campuses and take questions from students, and

439
00:25:08,715 --> 00:25:14,104
Speaker 2: he told me recently that atheism is is not as

440
00:25:14,185 --> 00:25:19,024
Speaker 2: prominent as it once was, that now it's kids asking

441
00:25:19,104 --> 00:25:24,034
Speaker 2: questions more about personal lifestyle choices, and he poses a

442
00:25:24,094 --> 00:25:27,654
Speaker 2: question to them. And Frank will ask the students, if

443
00:25:27,774 --> 00:25:31,594
Speaker 2: I could prove Christianity is true, would you believe it?

444
00:25:31,695 --> 00:25:34,494
Speaker 2: And he said many of them say no. So it's

445
00:25:34,534 --> 00:25:38,044
Speaker 2: not always an intellectual issue. It's not always convince me

446
00:25:38,104 --> 00:25:42,265
Speaker 2: with archaeology or convince me with something else. It's simply

447
00:25:42,324 --> 00:25:45,084
Speaker 2: that They don't want to live by the teachings of

448
00:25:45,125 --> 00:25:48,264
Speaker 2: what the Scriptures say. As Jesus said, people don't come

449
00:25:48,284 --> 00:25:51,254
Speaker 2: to the light because they don't want their evil deeds

450
00:25:51,334 --> 00:25:53,994
Speaker 2: to be exposed. So there comes a point where we

451
00:25:54,014 --> 00:25:56,895
Speaker 2: can make the intellectual arguments, and I recommend people get

452
00:25:56,935 --> 00:25:59,695
Speaker 2: your new book, The Stones Cry Out, to help with

453
00:25:59,734 --> 00:26:03,884
Speaker 2: those intellectual arguments which have their place. But ultimately, it

454
00:26:03,965 --> 00:26:08,204
Speaker 2: comes to the person willing to turn their back on

455
00:26:08,264 --> 00:26:11,865
Speaker 2: sin and put their faith in Christ. I agree.

456
00:26:12,264 --> 00:26:15,595
Speaker 1: The most that archaeology, the most that Christian apologetics can

457
00:26:15,665 --> 00:26:20,254
Speaker 1: do is remove the rational obstacles to belief. Years ago,

458
00:26:20,274 --> 00:26:24,274
Speaker 1: I not only debated Christopher Hitchens about a dozen times,

459
00:26:24,334 --> 00:26:26,034
Speaker 1: but I got to know him quite well. And I

460
00:26:26,054 --> 00:26:29,344
Speaker 1: had known him for years before our debates. And I

461
00:26:29,395 --> 00:26:32,324
Speaker 1: noticed that both during our debates and sometimes when we

462
00:26:32,344 --> 00:26:35,725
Speaker 1: would chat afterward, it wasn't so much that he didn't

463
00:26:35,764 --> 00:26:36,584
Speaker 1: believe in God.

464
00:26:37,084 --> 00:26:38,324
Speaker 3: He sort of hated God.

465
00:26:38,344 --> 00:26:40,965
Speaker 1: And the way he put it was he's like, I

466
00:26:41,044 --> 00:26:44,564
Speaker 1: don't want to live under the tyranny of God, by

467
00:26:44,604 --> 00:26:48,365
Speaker 1: which he meant the moral supervision of God, the accountability

468
00:26:48,425 --> 00:26:51,754
Speaker 1: of God. And so I got the idea that his

469
00:26:51,834 --> 00:26:54,994
Speaker 1: was not even so much atheism in the classic meaning

470
00:26:55,034 --> 00:26:58,494
Speaker 1: of the term as as it was anti-theism, or even

471
00:26:58,554 --> 00:27:02,074
Speaker 1: in some cases, a kind of wounded theism. Someone who

472
00:27:02,094 --> 00:27:04,694
Speaker 1: feels that they've been kind of hurt by God, and

473
00:27:04,734 --> 00:27:06,695
Speaker 1: their atheism is a form of revenge.

474
00:27:07,014 --> 00:27:09,095
Speaker 2: You know, it seems to me that when I've heard

475
00:27:09,155 --> 00:27:12,734
Speaker 2: people speak out and say they're atheists, it's often because

476
00:27:12,834 --> 00:27:16,614
Speaker 2: something happened in their life, a tragedy, the death of

477
00:27:16,675 --> 00:27:21,354
Speaker 2: a loved one, something else. Maybe they, as a younger person,

478
00:27:21,435 --> 00:27:24,215
Speaker 2: prayed and God didn't answer their prayer as they prayed it.

479
00:27:24,675 --> 00:27:27,014
Speaker 2: And so they feel God has failed them. So now

480
00:27:27,435 --> 00:27:33,184
Speaker 2: they develop, you know, a belief system to substantiate that reaction.

481
00:27:33,665 --> 00:27:36,064
Speaker 2: But do you find that that is often the case

482
00:27:36,104 --> 00:27:38,624
Speaker 2: with people who claim to be atheists? Or do you

483
00:27:38,665 --> 00:27:42,234
Speaker 2: find that some people actually arrive at that conclusion because

484
00:27:42,254 --> 00:27:45,475
Speaker 2: they've just studied, you know, and researched it, and this

485
00:27:45,554 --> 00:27:46,894
Speaker 2: is the conclusion they came to?

486
00:27:48,854 --> 00:27:52,155
Speaker 1: I think in 99 out of 100 cases, it's the former.

487
00:27:52,284 --> 00:27:54,324
Speaker 1: You know, it's some experience with God.

488
00:27:54,344 --> 00:27:54,804
Speaker 2: I agree.

489
00:27:54,844 --> 00:27:57,044
Speaker 1: You know, my wife, Debbie, said that when she was younger,

490
00:27:57,104 --> 00:28:01,984
Speaker 1: her dad died at a young age, and she blamed God. Now,

491
00:28:03,044 --> 00:28:05,105
Speaker 1: as you know, Pastor Greg, in the last few weeks,

492
00:28:05,185 --> 00:28:08,575
Speaker 1: I've been doing some swordsmanship and dueling with the Calvinists.

493
00:28:09,594 --> 00:28:11,215
Speaker 1: And what I told my wife as we were thinking

494
00:28:11,274 --> 00:28:13,835
Speaker 1: back about this is I said, you know, you were

495
00:28:13,875 --> 00:28:19,165
Speaker 1: rebelling against the God of Calvinism because you thought— wrongly

496
00:28:19,244 --> 00:28:23,644
Speaker 1: that God did this to you. You thought that God

497
00:28:23,764 --> 00:28:27,764
Speaker 1: decreed it. You think that God wanted the suffering and

498
00:28:27,984 --> 00:28:32,125
Speaker 1: evil in the world. But for God to allow something

499
00:28:32,225 --> 00:28:40,885
Speaker 1: or to permit it is a And I think that's

500
00:28:40,945 --> 00:28:44,815
Speaker 1: a very important distinction. And, you know, my own adult

501
00:28:44,854 --> 00:28:48,935
Speaker 1: Christianity was formed in the Calvary churches of California. And

502
00:28:48,955 --> 00:28:51,535
Speaker 1: I'm very much committed to the idea that God gives

503
00:28:51,615 --> 00:28:54,894
Speaker 1: us freedom to respond to him in the way that

504
00:28:54,955 --> 00:28:55,615
Speaker 1: we choose.

505
00:28:56,635 --> 00:28:59,334
Speaker 3: And also, God is not the author of evil.

506
00:29:00,015 --> 00:29:02,775
Speaker 1: God is, in fact, someone who designed the world in

507
00:29:02,834 --> 00:29:06,295
Speaker 1: a manner that permits evil. And he's sovereign over it

508
00:29:06,505 --> 00:29:11,705
Speaker 1: in that sense. but there is a certain Calvinist understanding

509
00:29:11,745 --> 00:29:17,145
Speaker 1: of Christianity that, in a way, gives ammunition to the atheist,

510
00:29:17,205 --> 00:29:20,905
Speaker 1: because the atheist can then say, God intended that this

511
00:29:21,125 --> 00:29:22,465
Speaker 1: evil thing happen to me.

512
00:29:23,334 --> 00:29:27,875
Speaker 2: Exactly right. You know, here's a little word of advice

513
00:29:27,955 --> 00:29:30,934
Speaker 2: or suggestion to you that'd be a great topic for

514
00:29:30,975 --> 00:29:33,435
Speaker 2: you to tackle in your next book and or film,

515
00:29:34,075 --> 00:29:39,705
Speaker 2: because Calvinism, Reformed theology— It seems to be having a resurgence,

516
00:29:40,645 --> 00:29:43,515
Speaker 2: especially among younger people, and I'm sorry to say among

517
00:29:43,555 --> 00:29:48,525
Speaker 2: younger pastors. And in fact, you made this statement, and

518
00:29:48,584 --> 00:29:52,585
Speaker 2: I followed your comments on this topic, and I so

519
00:29:52,665 --> 00:29:55,364
Speaker 2: appreciate it and agree with what you say, but you

520
00:29:55,385 --> 00:29:59,185
Speaker 2: made this provocative statement, but I cannot argue with it.

521
00:29:59,854 --> 00:30:02,715
Speaker 2: You said, and I quote, if the Calvinist doctrine of

522
00:30:02,795 --> 00:30:07,394
Speaker 2: predestination is right, then atheists are right to reject God,

523
00:30:07,755 --> 00:30:12,285
Speaker 2: because God has rejected them first. They don't believe because

524
00:30:12,344 --> 00:30:15,585
Speaker 2: they can't. God didn't give them the grace to believe,

525
00:30:15,705 --> 00:30:19,225
Speaker 2: so God is to blame for their damnation, not their

526
00:30:19,265 --> 00:30:22,144
Speaker 2: own free will. You want to elaborate on that?

527
00:30:23,505 --> 00:30:28,625
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's bad enough to say that God predetermined all

528
00:30:28,685 --> 00:30:32,295
Speaker 1: the evils in the world today, the evils in the

529
00:30:32,334 --> 00:30:36,405
Speaker 1: world that we experience in the world. It's a whole

530
00:30:36,465 --> 00:30:39,895
Speaker 1: different level to say that God predetermined. at the beginning

531
00:30:39,915 --> 00:30:44,035
Speaker 1: of the world, before creation itself, essentially created two books,

532
00:30:44,935 --> 00:30:47,684
Speaker 1: the book of the chosen or the elect and the

533
00:30:47,725 --> 00:30:50,664
Speaker 1: book of the damned. And he put the names of

534
00:30:50,785 --> 00:30:54,005
Speaker 1: all the elect in one book, and obviously everybody else

535
00:30:54,065 --> 00:30:57,515
Speaker 1: by exclusion falls into the other book. The point being

536
00:30:57,915 --> 00:31:01,654
Speaker 1: that since we need grace for salvation, God has decided

537
00:31:01,955 --> 00:31:04,535
Speaker 1: that I'm not going to give my grace to many

538
00:31:04,594 --> 00:31:07,545
Speaker 1: and maybe most people people in the world. I'm not

539
00:31:07,625 --> 00:31:10,745
Speaker 1: even giving them— Jesus didn't actually die for them. It's such

540
00:31:10,785 --> 00:31:14,145
Speaker 1: a shocking and scandalous thing to say, and of course

541
00:31:14,205 --> 00:31:17,354
Speaker 1: it makes this, I think, a Christianity that you can't

542
00:31:17,475 --> 00:31:20,094
Speaker 1: go out and preach to the world. Imagine standing up

543
00:31:20,155 --> 00:31:24,545
Speaker 1: and telling an audience of unbelievers, guess what? I'm actually

544
00:31:24,635 --> 00:31:28,165
Speaker 1: reaching out to those of you that God has put

545
00:31:28,245 --> 00:31:30,884
Speaker 1: in the book from the beginning of the world, and

546
00:31:30,925 --> 00:31:33,185
Speaker 1: the rest of you don't need to get up, sit

547
00:31:33,225 --> 00:31:37,745
Speaker 1: where you are, because Jesus didn't die for you. I mean,

548
00:31:37,945 --> 00:31:41,775
Speaker 1: what could be a more distasteful, shocking, and abominable message?

549
00:31:41,775 --> 00:31:46,694
Speaker 2: 100% true. Sometimes it's summed up in what is called tulip,

550
00:31:47,455 --> 00:31:51,015
Speaker 2: that breaks it down, T for total depravity, U for

551
00:31:51,075 --> 00:31:56,344
Speaker 2: unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace,

552
00:31:56,745 --> 00:31:59,525
Speaker 2: and P stands for the perseverance of the saints. So

553
00:31:59,565 --> 00:32:02,325
Speaker 2: starting with total depravity, I mean, we would agree that

554
00:32:02,745 --> 00:32:04,725
Speaker 2: all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

555
00:32:04,844 --> 00:32:08,285
Speaker 2: So when someone says, well, we're totally depraved, we wouldn't

556
00:32:08,405 --> 00:32:12,174
Speaker 2: dispute that if we understand what is meant. But if

557
00:32:12,195 --> 00:32:15,654
Speaker 2: you really dive a little deeper into what A Calvinist

558
00:32:15,715 --> 00:32:19,075
Speaker 2: believes when they say we're depraved, they're effectively saying you

559
00:32:19,115 --> 00:32:22,815
Speaker 2: don't even have the ability to believe even if you

560
00:32:22,955 --> 00:32:26,235
Speaker 2: wanted to. In other words, preaching to a totally depraved

561
00:32:26,275 --> 00:32:29,695
Speaker 2: person would be like going to a graveyard and preaching

562
00:32:29,765 --> 00:32:33,644
Speaker 2: to dead people. Well, yes, we're dead in trespass, in sin,

563
00:32:34,205 --> 00:32:37,785
Speaker 2: but God has given us the ability to choose. And

564
00:32:37,805 --> 00:32:41,755
Speaker 2: John 3.16 is so clear. For God so loved the world,

565
00:32:41,795 --> 00:32:45,555
Speaker 2: He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in

566
00:32:45,695 --> 00:32:50,594
Speaker 2: Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. So for starters,

567
00:32:50,834 --> 00:32:54,434
Speaker 2: I don't even really agree with the Reformed definition of

568
00:32:54,495 --> 00:32:56,325
Speaker 2: total depravity. What are your thoughts on that?

569
00:32:57,405 --> 00:32:59,884
Speaker 3: No, I agree entirely with what you said.

570
00:32:59,905 --> 00:33:04,145
Speaker 1: The Calvinists love the example of Lazarus, and they basically

571
00:33:04,265 --> 00:33:08,184
Speaker 1: act as if that is an accurate representation of.

572
00:33:09,145 --> 00:33:12,344
Speaker 3: What it means. You're kind of dead, literally dead.

573
00:33:12,365 --> 00:33:15,625
Speaker 1: And obviously, Lazarus can't believe he's a corpse.

574
00:33:16,245 --> 00:33:17,424
Speaker 3: Jesus has to revive him.

575
00:33:17,465 --> 00:33:22,145
Speaker 1: So that's their model for understanding total depravity. I think

576
00:33:22,205 --> 00:33:25,415
Speaker 1: one of the things that I've discovered in these skirmishes,

577
00:33:25,875 --> 00:33:29,475
Speaker 1: if you will, is that the Calvinist redefines pretty much

578
00:33:29,675 --> 00:33:32,485
Speaker 1: all the key words of the Bible. We don't have

579
00:33:32,545 --> 00:33:35,205
Speaker 1: a problem with these words. We would agree, for example,

580
00:33:35,545 --> 00:33:38,025
Speaker 1: that the people who are saved are God's elect. I

581
00:33:38,045 --> 00:33:40,654
Speaker 1: don't have a problem with the term elect. Elect is

582
00:33:40,695 --> 00:33:43,815
Speaker 1: in the Bible. Even the term predestination is in the Bible.

583
00:33:44,275 --> 00:33:48,375
Speaker 1: But predestination is in the Bible in the so-called golden chain.

584
00:33:49,115 --> 00:33:53,365
Speaker 1: And the first link in the chain is foreknowledge, right?

585
00:33:53,405 --> 00:33:55,445
Speaker 1: So if God at the beginning of the world, and

586
00:33:55,485 --> 00:33:58,145
Speaker 1: God does know everything, and he does know the future,

587
00:33:58,825 --> 00:34:02,205
Speaker 1: God is standing outside of time. So if God knows

588
00:34:02,365 --> 00:34:04,864
Speaker 1: who are those who are going to believe and trust

589
00:34:04,925 --> 00:34:07,334
Speaker 1: in him, Well, those are the guys who go in

590
00:34:07,375 --> 00:34:07,695
Speaker 1: the book.

591
00:34:08,155 --> 00:34:09,955
Speaker 3: Those are the guys who are predestined.

592
00:34:09,975 --> 00:34:13,595
Speaker 1: So if you understand predestination in that sense, that God

593
00:34:13,635 --> 00:34:17,495
Speaker 1: has advanced knowledge of those who will believe, I don't

594
00:34:17,535 --> 00:34:21,065
Speaker 1: have a problem with predestination either. But the way the

595
00:34:21,105 --> 00:34:26,945
Speaker 1: Calvinists understand these terms is alters their normal meaning. And

596
00:34:27,105 --> 00:34:31,975
Speaker 1: it's that interpretation, I think, that creates a lot of problems.

597
00:34:32,295 --> 00:34:35,455
Speaker 2: Well, what I've found from experience is people I've met

598
00:34:35,535 --> 00:34:39,515
Speaker 2: who are Reformed, most cases were not raised in Reformed churches.

599
00:34:39,575 --> 00:34:41,435
Speaker 2: They came to Christ through what we would call an

600
00:34:41,555 --> 00:34:45,415
Speaker 2: evangelical church. And then they were, I'll use the word loosely,

601
00:34:45,575 --> 00:34:50,875
Speaker 2: evangelized by Calvinists. It seems to me that Christians, evangelicals,

602
00:34:50,935 --> 00:34:54,315
Speaker 2: we want to evangelize nonbelievers and bring them to Christ.

603
00:34:54,375 --> 00:34:58,214
Speaker 2: But often Reformed people want to evangelize what they call

604
00:34:58,315 --> 00:35:01,455
Speaker 2: Arminians and and bring them to Calvinism. And I don't

605
00:35:01,495 --> 00:35:05,245
Speaker 2: consider myself an Arminian either. I'm not a Calvinist. I'm

606
00:35:05,285 --> 00:35:09,085
Speaker 2: not an Arminian. I'm a Biblicist. I land where the

607
00:35:09,145 --> 00:35:12,445
Speaker 2: Scripture says, because there are things that the teachings of

608
00:35:12,605 --> 00:35:15,185
Speaker 2: Arminius I would disagree with as well.

609
00:35:16,705 --> 00:35:17,745
Speaker 3: I feel the same way.

610
00:35:17,765 --> 00:35:20,885
Speaker 1: You know, some of the Calvinists are pressing me to disclose, like.

611
00:35:21,345 --> 00:35:24,575
Speaker 3: Am I a Molinist or an Arminian?

612
00:35:24,935 --> 00:35:28,955
Speaker 1: They want me to take sides in various historical, or

613
00:35:29,015 --> 00:35:31,375
Speaker 1: now these days there's a new word, provisionism.

614
00:35:31,875 --> 00:35:34,135
Speaker 3: And again, loosely speaking, the idea.

615
00:35:33,955 --> 00:35:37,875
Speaker 1: That God provides, God in a way gives the grace

616
00:35:37,935 --> 00:35:40,435
Speaker 1: to all to have the power to believe.

617
00:35:40,755 --> 00:35:43,325
Speaker 3: Obviously, I agree with that. I think you would also.

618
00:35:43,375 --> 00:35:43,515
Speaker 2: So....

619
00:35:45,865 --> 00:35:47,765
Speaker 3: I've tried to avoid.

620
00:35:47,705 --> 00:35:51,845
Speaker 1: Dropping myself, parachuting into any particular camp and simply saying, listen,

621
00:35:52,385 --> 00:35:55,925
Speaker 1: you know, maybe you Calvinists are right. And maybe there's

622
00:35:55,965 --> 00:35:58,245
Speaker 1: certain things about you that I don't object to. And

623
00:35:58,265 --> 00:36:00,495
Speaker 1: there's certain good things about you. You want to emphasize

624
00:36:00,515 --> 00:36:04,015
Speaker 1: the sovereignty of God. Nothing wrong with that. You want

625
00:36:04,075 --> 00:36:07,495
Speaker 1: to give God all the credit and put man in

626
00:36:07,515 --> 00:36:10,635
Speaker 1: a position of complete humility in the face of salvation.

627
00:36:10,915 --> 00:36:11,955
Speaker 3: I'm on board with that.

628
00:36:13,125 --> 00:36:16,185
Speaker 1: But there are certain implications of the things you say,

629
00:36:16,765 --> 00:36:20,105
Speaker 1: which I think distort the central teachings of the Christian faith.

630
00:36:20,565 --> 00:36:22,385
Speaker 2: That's right, because the fact of the matter is, as

631
00:36:22,425 --> 00:36:26,565
Speaker 2: you pointed out, predestination and free will are both taught

632
00:36:26,605 --> 00:36:29,295
Speaker 2: in the Bible. I think with Spurgeon, who is approaching

633
00:36:29,335 --> 00:36:33,755
Speaker 2: this topic, how do you reconcile predestination and the free

634
00:36:33,775 --> 00:36:35,655
Speaker 2: will of man? And he said, why do I have

635
00:36:35,695 --> 00:36:39,565
Speaker 2: to reconcile friends? You know, they are taught sometimes side

636
00:36:39,625 --> 00:36:42,905
Speaker 2: by side in Scripture. And, you know, God is the

637
00:36:43,005 --> 00:36:46,225
Speaker 2: one that chooses. God is the one who decides. I'm

638
00:36:46,265 --> 00:36:49,105
Speaker 2: the one who is called to proclaim. And, you know,

639
00:36:49,125 --> 00:36:51,375
Speaker 2: I like that passage in the book of Acts that says,

640
00:36:51,735 --> 00:36:55,175
Speaker 2: as many as were ordained unto eternal life, they believed.

641
00:36:55,255 --> 00:36:58,035
Speaker 2: So I have no way of knowing that. All I

642
00:36:58,095 --> 00:37:00,455
Speaker 2: know is I'm called by Jesus— we all are, as a

643
00:37:00,475 --> 00:37:02,775
Speaker 2: matter of fact— to go into all the world and preach

644
00:37:02,795 --> 00:37:06,205
Speaker 2: the gospel. You know, and we leave the results— in

645
00:37:06,265 --> 00:37:10,895
Speaker 2: the hands of God. I heard this illustration from Harry Ironside.

646
00:37:11,055 --> 00:37:13,355
Speaker 2: He used to be the pastor of Moody Memorial Church.

647
00:37:14,055 --> 00:37:18,305
Speaker 2: This really helped me as a younger Christian to understand it.

648
00:37:18,335 --> 00:37:21,425
Speaker 2: He said, you're walking down a street and there's a door,

649
00:37:21,585 --> 00:37:24,865
Speaker 2: and on the outside of the door it says, whosoever will,

650
00:37:24,925 --> 00:37:27,735
Speaker 2: let him come. You walk by that door every day.

651
00:37:27,795 --> 00:37:30,645
Speaker 2: You don't open the door. Then one day you stop,

652
00:37:30,665 --> 00:37:33,485
Speaker 2: you think about it, and maybe the next day you decide,

653
00:37:33,805 --> 00:37:36,445
Speaker 2: I'm going to go in that door. Whosoever will, let

654
00:37:36,465 --> 00:37:39,145
Speaker 2: him come. You open the door, you walk through, you

655
00:37:39,185 --> 00:37:41,345
Speaker 2: shut it, and on the other side of the door,

656
00:37:41,585 --> 00:37:45,565
Speaker 2: it's written, chosen in Christ from the foundation of the world.

657
00:37:45,905 --> 00:37:48,595
Speaker 2: That works for me. It's a simple way to understand it,

658
00:37:48,625 --> 00:37:51,185
Speaker 2: but both of these things are taught in Scripture.

659
00:37:52,425 --> 00:37:53,685
Speaker 3: I agree completely.

660
00:37:54,385 --> 00:37:56,735
Speaker 1: And I think at some level, if someone were to

661
00:37:56,815 --> 00:38:01,305
Speaker 1: say to you, well, Greg, on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday,

662
00:38:01,345 --> 00:38:04,035
Speaker 1: you stood in front of the door. what is it

663
00:38:04,135 --> 00:38:08,955
Speaker 1: that caused you to enter on Thursday, you'd be hard-pressed

664
00:38:08,975 --> 00:38:10,975
Speaker 1: to say, we all would be. Why did you propose

665
00:38:10,995 --> 00:38:13,135
Speaker 1: to your wife on one day and not the day before?

666
00:38:13,475 --> 00:38:15,705
Speaker 1: In other words, the only point I think I would

667
00:38:15,745 --> 00:38:18,965
Speaker 1: hold on to is that in the end, it is

668
00:38:19,105 --> 00:38:22,785
Speaker 1: your choice to go through that door. Because if you

669
00:38:22,825 --> 00:38:28,005
Speaker 1: remove that, you're essentially removing the relational aspect of Christianity.

670
00:38:28,365 --> 00:38:30,805
Speaker 1: God is relating to us, and we have to be

671
00:38:30,865 --> 00:38:32,605
Speaker 1: able to respond to him individually.

672
00:38:32,825 --> 00:38:33,765
Speaker 3: In some way.

673
00:38:34,425 --> 00:38:38,575
Speaker 1: And I think that's really the central issue here.

674
00:38:38,765 --> 00:38:41,535
Speaker 2: Great thoughts on that. I'm glad you're tackling that subject.

675
00:38:41,975 --> 00:38:46,355
Speaker 2: I hope we continue to speak up publicly on it. Okay,

676
00:38:46,375 --> 00:38:50,715
Speaker 2: now just questions that are a little lighter. So when

677
00:38:50,875 --> 00:38:56,285
Speaker 2: you're hungry, what is your go-to meal? Maybe comfort food

678
00:38:56,345 --> 00:38:57,365
Speaker 2: or guilty pleasure?

679
00:38:59,655 --> 00:39:05,925
Speaker 1: Well, I like fried bananas for a snack. I ate

680
00:39:05,965 --> 00:39:08,265
Speaker 1: those as a child in India, and I still like

681
00:39:08,285 --> 00:39:12,645
Speaker 1: them today. So that's a sort of unusual delicacy.

682
00:39:13,345 --> 00:39:15,965
Speaker 2: I don't think I've heard that one. I asked Marco

683
00:39:16,005 --> 00:39:19,025
Speaker 2: Rubio what his favorite go-to food was. I think he

684
00:39:19,065 --> 00:39:23,355
Speaker 2: said chicken, Parmesan, and pizza. I asked Chuck Swindoll. He

685
00:39:23,415 --> 00:39:26,594
Speaker 2: said his wife's chili. but then he admitted he loved

686
00:39:26,675 --> 00:39:30,325
Speaker 2: In-N-Out Burger too. But no one has said fried bananas,

687
00:39:30,365 --> 00:39:34,535
Speaker 2: so you own that category, Dinesh. Now, you're a filmmaker,

688
00:39:35,115 --> 00:39:40,205
Speaker 2: so I've you've worked behind the scenes crafting films. What

689
00:39:40,425 --> 00:39:43,895
Speaker 2: are maybe three of your favorite films that you love?

690
00:39:45,275 --> 00:39:48,955
Speaker 1: Well, my first one was called Obama's America, and it

691
00:39:49,035 --> 00:39:52,275
Speaker 1: is a sort of journey into the world of Obama

692
00:39:52,335 --> 00:39:54,955
Speaker 1: and It was quite controversial at the time, although I

693
00:39:54,995 --> 00:39:57,195
Speaker 1: think if you watch it today, you'd say it's dead

694
00:39:57,275 --> 00:40:01,185
Speaker 1: on accurate because it revealed things about Obama that were

695
00:40:01,405 --> 00:40:05,645
Speaker 1: not known at the time, but are known today. Subsequently,

696
00:40:05,845 --> 00:40:09,745
Speaker 1: I did Hillary's America, which was also a secret history

697
00:40:09,765 --> 00:40:12,305
Speaker 1: of the Democratic Party. And it went into the history

698
00:40:12,365 --> 00:40:16,785
Speaker 1: of slavery, segregation, Jim Crow, the Ku Klux Klan, a

699
00:40:16,825 --> 00:40:19,685
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that people don't know. They come to

700
00:40:19,765 --> 00:40:22,685
Speaker 1: realize the actual history of the Democratic Party, which is

701
00:40:23,125 --> 00:40:27,135
Speaker 1: somewhat camouflaged in the history books and also in the textbooks.

702
00:40:28,395 --> 00:40:31,355
Speaker 1: And then most recently, my last film was called The

703
00:40:31,395 --> 00:40:35,755
Speaker 1: Dragon's Prophecy. It was based on Jonathan Cahn's book, and

704
00:40:35,795 --> 00:40:40,025
Speaker 1: it talks about Israel, Hamas, radical Islam, and the Bible.

705
00:40:40,545 --> 00:40:43,745
Speaker 1: So it is the first film of mine that veers

706
00:40:43,865 --> 00:40:47,565
Speaker 1: beyond the territory of the political and the historical and

707
00:40:47,585 --> 00:40:50,925
Speaker 1: the cultural issues into the domain of the spiritual. So

708
00:40:50,965 --> 00:40:53,295
Speaker 1: I'm very proud of that film. You can watch it

709
00:40:53,375 --> 00:40:55,995
Speaker 1: on the Angel Studios platform. There are also other ways

710
00:40:56,055 --> 00:40:59,335
Speaker 1: to watch it, Salem Media and so on.

711
00:40:59,375 --> 00:41:01,155
Speaker 3: So those are three films I'm very proud of.

712
00:41:01,395 --> 00:41:03,275
Speaker 2: So are you working on anything right now?

713
00:41:04,895 --> 00:41:05,195
Speaker 3: Yes.

714
00:41:05,855 --> 00:41:09,995
Speaker 1: Prager University is going to release a documentary on biblical

715
00:41:10,115 --> 00:41:13,695
Speaker 1: archaeology that's a kind of companion piece to my book,

716
00:41:13,735 --> 00:41:16,095
Speaker 1: The Stones Cry Out, and it'll have the same title.

717
00:41:16,475 --> 00:41:19,154
Speaker 1: It's going to be released soon. And then for next year,

718
00:41:19,195 --> 00:41:21,575
Speaker 1: I'm working on a film project.

719
00:41:21,295 --> 00:41:23,365
Speaker 3: On Islam in America.

720
00:41:23,475 --> 00:41:24,245
Speaker 2: Wow.

721
00:41:24,515 --> 00:41:26,265
Speaker 3: And I'm very excited about that.

722
00:41:26,435 --> 00:41:30,285
Speaker 2: That's such an important topic right now. Such an important topic.

723
00:41:30,645 --> 00:41:32,745
Speaker 2: It seems so strange to me that there has been

724
00:41:32,785 --> 00:41:36,995
Speaker 2: this strange marriage, or maybe it's a marriage of convenience

725
00:41:37,035 --> 00:41:43,055
Speaker 2: for the moment, of Islam and maybe trans people or

726
00:41:43,175 --> 00:41:46,535
Speaker 2: gay people, when if you're honest, if you were a

727
00:41:46,635 --> 00:41:51,355
Speaker 2: gay person in Gaza, you might get thrown off a rooftop,

728
00:41:51,835 --> 00:41:55,575
Speaker 2: but yet they think there's some alignment. And what do

729
00:41:55,595 --> 00:41:56,915
Speaker 2: you think is going on with all that?

730
00:41:57,935 --> 00:42:02,055
Speaker 1: Well, I think that there is a unity based upon

731
00:42:02,075 --> 00:42:07,285
Speaker 1: a common enemy or a common hatred, right? Think about

732
00:42:07,825 --> 00:42:11,585
Speaker 1: the Iranian parliament where they burned the American flag. Where

733
00:42:11,625 --> 00:42:14,565
Speaker 1: else did they burn the American flag? On the left-wing campus.

734
00:42:14,645 --> 00:42:14,945
Speaker 2: Yes.

735
00:42:15,505 --> 00:42:19,305
Speaker 1: So the Iranian mullahs and the left-wing students have the

736
00:42:19,385 --> 00:42:24,045
Speaker 1: same view of the American founding and what the flag represents.

737
00:42:24,705 --> 00:42:28,005
Speaker 1: And so I think what it is, is that... Islam

738
00:42:28,045 --> 00:42:32,285
Speaker 1: has an argument against Christianity, and the secular left has

739
00:42:32,325 --> 00:42:36,475
Speaker 1: an argument against Christianity. And so, you know, the guy

740
00:42:36,515 --> 00:42:41,315
Speaker 1: who's at Columbia University doesn't worry about what happens in Gaza.

741
00:42:41,375 --> 00:42:43,614
Speaker 1: He doesn't live in Gaza. Nobody's going to throw him

742
00:42:43,715 --> 00:42:47,815
Speaker 1: off a roof. So he's making common cause with the

743
00:42:47,855 --> 00:42:52,765
Speaker 1: Muslims here in America to essentially dismantle the principles of

744
00:42:52,805 --> 00:42:55,165
Speaker 1: Christianity and Western civilization.

745
00:42:55,545 --> 00:42:58,415
Speaker 2: A common enemy. It's like when they When Jesus was

746
00:42:58,455 --> 00:43:03,635
Speaker 2: tried and crucified, the Pharisees and the Sadducees worked together.

747
00:43:03,995 --> 00:43:07,755
Speaker 2: They were normally enemies of one another, but they were

748
00:43:08,235 --> 00:43:13,115
Speaker 2: in agreement in their mutual hatred of Jesus Christ. So

749
00:43:13,155 --> 00:43:16,035
Speaker 2: coming back to movies again, on a personal note, so

750
00:43:16,055 --> 00:43:18,835
Speaker 2: what are movies you like that you've seen in theaters?

751
00:43:19,015 --> 00:43:22,295
Speaker 2: I define one of my favorite movies as If I

752
00:43:22,355 --> 00:43:25,895
Speaker 2: saw it on television, I wouldn't flip the channel till

753
00:43:25,915 --> 00:43:28,145
Speaker 2: the commercial came on, even though maybe I've seen the

754
00:43:28,185 --> 00:43:31,965
Speaker 2: movie 20, 30 times. I just like the movie so much.

755
00:43:32,345 --> 00:43:34,565
Speaker 2: I'll watch that. Do you have movies like that?

756
00:43:36,625 --> 00:43:37,645
Speaker 3: Yes.

757
00:43:38,245 --> 00:43:42,505
Speaker 1: I'm a very tough candidate for humor, but I think

758
00:43:42,565 --> 00:43:44,864
Speaker 1: My Cousin Vinny is one of these movies that makes

759
00:43:44,925 --> 00:43:47,985
Speaker 1: me laugh every single time I watch it. I know

760
00:43:48,165 --> 00:43:50,435
Speaker 1: all the jokes that are coming and I laugh at

761
00:43:50,495 --> 00:43:51,355
Speaker 1: them anyway.

762
00:43:51,435 --> 00:43:54,555
Speaker 2: I would have never thought you'd say that, but that's funny. Yeah. Yeah.

763
00:43:54,635 --> 00:43:57,575
Speaker 1: There's a now there is a film, an Australian film,

764
00:43:57,635 --> 00:43:59,975
Speaker 1: not quite as well known as the ones I might

765
00:44:00,035 --> 00:44:00,775
Speaker 1: normally name.

766
00:44:01,255 --> 00:44:02,515
Speaker 3: It's called Breaker Morant.

767
00:44:02,615 --> 00:44:02,795
Speaker 2: Yes.

768
00:44:02,935 --> 00:44:04,535
Speaker 3: And it's about the Boer War.

769
00:44:04,555 --> 00:44:05,265
Speaker 2: Yeah.

770
00:44:05,625 --> 00:44:10,105
Speaker 1: And it is a beautifully conceived, beautifully shot, deeply moving film.

771
00:44:10,125 --> 00:44:12,844
Speaker 1: I think that's another one that I could watch again

772
00:44:12,885 --> 00:44:15,344
Speaker 1: and again and sort of get a little bit more

773
00:44:15,425 --> 00:44:16,285
Speaker 1: out of it each time.

774
00:44:16,965 --> 00:44:19,375
Speaker 2: Now, those are not the films I would expect you

775
00:44:19,435 --> 00:44:23,555
Speaker 2: to choose, but those are fascinating choices. So music, what

776
00:44:23,595 --> 00:44:25,094
Speaker 2: kind of music do you listen to?

777
00:44:27,225 --> 00:44:31,205
Speaker 1: Well, my wife, Debbie, is a former worship leader and

778
00:44:31,225 --> 00:44:35,265
Speaker 1: a singer. And so I've been introduced to a wider

779
00:44:35,765 --> 00:44:38,625
Speaker 1: scope of music than I would otherwise follow. I'm not

780
00:44:38,685 --> 00:44:43,245
Speaker 1: particularly a music guy, but I've learned to appreciate certain

781
00:44:43,285 --> 00:44:44,725
Speaker 1: types of classical music.

782
00:44:45,515 --> 00:44:46,845
Speaker 3: I like country music.

783
00:44:47,955 --> 00:44:51,035
Speaker 1: And once in a while, I even hear a pop

784
00:44:51,075 --> 00:44:53,275
Speaker 1: song that I can kind of tap my feet to.

785
00:44:54,035 --> 00:44:56,605
Speaker 2: That's good. Okay, so if you could sit down. and

786
00:44:56,645 --> 00:44:59,505
Speaker 2: have a meal with, say, three or four people from history.

787
00:44:59,585 --> 00:45:02,875
Speaker 2: We won't include Jesus because he would be our first guest,

788
00:45:02,895 --> 00:45:06,194
Speaker 2: but you could have dinner with them. Historical figures, maybe

789
00:45:06,215 --> 00:45:09,435
Speaker 2: they're alive, maybe they're from the past. Who would you

790
00:45:09,475 --> 00:45:11,625
Speaker 2: like to sit down and have a conversation with?

791
00:45:12,495 --> 00:45:16,145
Speaker 1: Well, you know, very weirdly, you're describing an actual situation

792
00:45:16,325 --> 00:45:18,945
Speaker 1: in which a group of us, Dartmouth graduates who had

793
00:45:19,065 --> 00:45:22,065
Speaker 1: all come to Washington, D.C., to be part of the

794
00:45:22,105 --> 00:45:25,465
Speaker 1: Reagan administration. We sat down one day and said, who

795
00:45:25,565 --> 00:45:28,745
Speaker 1: is the one person that more than anybody else alive

796
00:45:29,165 --> 00:45:32,625
Speaker 1: we would like to have breakfast with? And on our list,

797
00:45:32,685 --> 00:45:35,765
Speaker 1: we had Reagan, we had Pope John Paul II, we

798
00:45:35,805 --> 00:45:39,125
Speaker 1: had Gorbachev, but the guy who came out ahead was

799
00:45:39,245 --> 00:45:42,155
Speaker 1: Richard Nixon. Right. And so we wrote a letter to

800
00:45:42,215 --> 00:45:46,195
Speaker 1: Nixon and invited him to have lunch with a Dartmouth

801
00:45:46,255 --> 00:45:49,555
Speaker 1: breakfast club that we constituted just for that very purpose.

802
00:45:49,815 --> 00:45:51,135
Speaker 3: He actually agreed.

803
00:45:51,575 --> 00:45:54,945
Speaker 1: And so we had an extremely interesting conversation with this

804
00:45:55,005 --> 00:45:59,665
Speaker 1: very strange and complex man, Richard Nixon, who isn't my

805
00:45:59,765 --> 00:46:05,535
Speaker 1: favorite president, but nevertheless was an extremely mystifying character and

806
00:46:06,075 --> 00:46:08,735
Speaker 1: and very interesting to sit down with for an hour

807
00:46:08,795 --> 00:46:09,094
Speaker 1: or two.

808
00:46:09,355 --> 00:46:12,915
Speaker 2: That's fascinating. You know, I read recently that young people

809
00:46:13,035 --> 00:46:16,355
Speaker 2: are sort of discovering Nixon for the first time, and

810
00:46:16,395 --> 00:46:20,435
Speaker 2: he's sort of grown in popularity. I interviewed Shannon Bream

811
00:46:20,475 --> 00:46:23,825
Speaker 2: recently at the Richard Nixon Library, and as you walk

812
00:46:23,845 --> 00:46:28,385
Speaker 2: through the library, you realize this man has really been misrepresented.

813
00:46:28,445 --> 00:46:32,265
Speaker 2: He's been defined by Watergate, but actually he was a

814
00:46:32,305 --> 00:46:37,245
Speaker 2: very intelligent man, and in and did many good things.

815
00:46:37,345 --> 00:46:40,605
Speaker 2: And yeah, he messed up. But I look at modern

816
00:46:40,925 --> 00:46:44,405
Speaker 2: scandals of today, and I think Watergate would be relatively

817
00:46:44,525 --> 00:46:49,364
Speaker 2: minor comparatively. So, you know, I look upon Nixon with

818
00:46:49,425 --> 00:46:53,165
Speaker 2: a certain degree of favor. But that's so cool that

819
00:46:53,205 --> 00:46:55,045
Speaker 2: you sat down and had a meal with him. Did

820
00:46:55,065 --> 00:46:57,965
Speaker 2: you tell me you actually worked with President Reagan as well?

821
00:46:59,435 --> 00:47:02,555
Speaker 1: In my early 20s, after I graduated from Dartmouth, I

822
00:47:02,595 --> 00:47:05,375
Speaker 1: came to Washington. A bunch of us did. I wasn't alone.

823
00:47:06,015 --> 00:47:08,005
Speaker 1: And all of us ended up in different parts of

824
00:47:08,045 --> 00:47:13,105
Speaker 1: the administration. In fact, my classmate, Peter Robinson, wrote Reagan's Mr. Gorbachev,

825
00:47:13,145 --> 00:47:17,045
Speaker 1: take down that wall speech. And so we have the

826
00:47:17,665 --> 00:47:20,775
Speaker 1: great experience, which we'll never forget, any of us, of

827
00:47:20,815 --> 00:47:23,135
Speaker 1: having just It's not that we were that high up

828
00:47:23,215 --> 00:47:25,315
Speaker 1: on the totem pole. I got to stand in the

829
00:47:25,375 --> 00:47:29,815
Speaker 1: back of the room and watch Reagan with the senior staff.

830
00:47:30,335 --> 00:47:31,915
Speaker 1: It's just something that will never leave me.

831
00:47:32,185 --> 00:47:35,645
Speaker 2: Oh, he was a great president. Have you ever been

832
00:47:35,705 --> 00:47:37,605
Speaker 2: to his ranch in Santa Barbara?

833
00:47:38,945 --> 00:47:42,405
Speaker 1: I have, and it's, again, an indelible impression on me

834
00:47:42,485 --> 00:47:46,055
Speaker 1: because for two reasons. One is the humility of the man,

835
00:47:46,075 --> 00:47:48,655
Speaker 1: you know, having been there in such a simple abode.

836
00:47:49,175 --> 00:47:51,815
Speaker 1: I mean, my wife was pointing out to me that

837
00:47:51,955 --> 00:47:54,995
Speaker 1: Reagan and Nancy had these two single beds that are

838
00:47:55,055 --> 00:47:59,165
Speaker 1: physically tied together. They're too cheap to buy a king bed,

839
00:47:59,535 --> 00:48:03,245
Speaker 1: you know. But for me, it was really interesting to

840
00:48:03,305 --> 00:48:06,665
Speaker 1: thumb through Reagan's books, which are still sitting there on

841
00:48:06,725 --> 00:48:11,465
Speaker 1: the bookshelf. And you can see Reagan's handmade notes, which

842
00:48:11,525 --> 00:48:14,375
Speaker 1: shows you that the guy was a reader. He was

843
00:48:14,435 --> 00:48:18,315
Speaker 1: a man of ideas. And we haven't really had that

844
00:48:18,375 --> 00:48:21,515
Speaker 1: so much since then. So even though Reagan, I wouldn't say,

845
00:48:21,575 --> 00:48:25,515
Speaker 1: was himself an intellectual, he was genuinely interested in ideas.

846
00:48:25,875 --> 00:48:28,095
Speaker 2: Well, one of the fascinating things in that house I

847
00:48:28,175 --> 00:48:32,025
Speaker 2: noticed was the remote control. Maybe there are multiple remote

848
00:48:32,065 --> 00:48:36,505
Speaker 2: controls with handwritten directions from Nancy on how to operate

849
00:48:36,545 --> 00:48:40,465
Speaker 2: the television. So here's the man who had the nuclear football,

850
00:48:40,545 --> 00:48:44,165
Speaker 2: the leader of the free world that still needed help

851
00:48:44,525 --> 00:48:46,415
Speaker 2: operating his television set.

852
00:48:48,165 --> 00:48:49,105
Speaker 3: Isn't that the truth?

853
00:48:49,665 --> 00:48:50,025
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

854
00:48:50,065 --> 00:48:53,505
Speaker 1: No, that venue, that ranch, I mean, the Reagan Library

855
00:48:53,525 --> 00:48:54,785
Speaker 1: is wonderful in its own way.

856
00:48:54,805 --> 00:48:55,155
Speaker 2: It is.

857
00:48:55,185 --> 00:48:59,055
Speaker 1: But the ranch has the stamp of lived existence, right?

858
00:48:59,075 --> 00:49:01,255
Speaker 1: And one of the things that the Young America Foundation,

859
00:49:01,275 --> 00:49:05,094
Speaker 1: which maintains the ranch, they have not altered it, right?

860
00:49:05,115 --> 00:49:07,615
Speaker 1: So if you look in the closet, it's like, there's

861
00:49:07,675 --> 00:49:11,795
Speaker 1: Reagan's shirt. You know, there's his cowboy hat. And so

862
00:49:11,875 --> 00:49:15,185
Speaker 1: there's a kind of authenticity about that that I think

863
00:49:15,225 --> 00:49:19,945
Speaker 1: hits you hard. So it's very meaningful. If anyone ever

864
00:49:19,985 --> 00:49:22,045
Speaker 1: gets to go, it's very well worth doing it.

865
00:49:22,055 --> 00:49:25,015
Speaker 2: It really is. Also, here's the ports that Reagan actually

866
00:49:25,055 --> 00:49:28,965
Speaker 2: built himself. He liked to get out and work and

867
00:49:29,345 --> 00:49:33,384
Speaker 2: chop wood and ride his horses. And he always, of course,

868
00:49:33,445 --> 00:49:37,745
Speaker 2: looked great doing it. He's a movie star. And he

869
00:49:37,785 --> 00:49:42,205
Speaker 2: was a fantastic president. You look at the universities of today,

870
00:49:42,515 --> 00:49:47,985
Speaker 2: there's a rise of anti-Semitism on these university campuses. There's

871
00:49:48,065 --> 00:49:53,015
Speaker 2: just liberal woke ideology being pushed on our young people.

872
00:49:53,695 --> 00:49:58,155
Speaker 2: And you yourself have gone to university. I would consider

873
00:49:58,195 --> 00:50:02,975
Speaker 2: you an intellectual. What would you recommend that Christian parents

874
00:50:03,115 --> 00:50:07,964
Speaker 2: send their children to what we would call secular universities today?

875
00:50:10,045 --> 00:50:14,445
Speaker 1: No, I say that that's not the answer I would

876
00:50:14,485 --> 00:50:18,065
Speaker 1: have given 20 years ago, maybe even 10 years ago.

877
00:50:18,085 --> 00:50:21,305
Speaker 1: I mean, I sent my daughter to Dartmouth, but the

878
00:50:21,325 --> 00:50:24,455
Speaker 1: moment she got there, I realized that the place is

879
00:50:24,515 --> 00:50:27,595
Speaker 1: like a minefield. Now, it was already leaning to the

880
00:50:27,655 --> 00:50:30,515
Speaker 1: left when I was there, but there was about... eight

881
00:50:30,655 --> 00:50:34,215
Speaker 1: or nine prominent conservatives on the campus. So there was

882
00:50:34,255 --> 00:50:37,455
Speaker 1: at least some modicum of a balance. But that was

883
00:50:37,495 --> 00:50:42,655
Speaker 1: starting to disappear even in the years 2014 to 2017

884
00:50:42,655 --> 00:50:45,455
Speaker 1: when Danielle, my daughter, went there. And so I had

885
00:50:45,515 --> 00:50:50,464
Speaker 1: to almost like choreograph her journey through college saying, take

886
00:50:50,525 --> 00:50:53,245
Speaker 1: this professor, avoid this department.

887
00:50:53,805 --> 00:50:55,785
Speaker 3: So these days it's like that.

888
00:50:55,905 --> 00:50:58,884
Speaker 1: It's like walking through a minefield And unless you have

889
00:50:58,945 --> 00:51:02,805
Speaker 1: some navigation tool, I would say, I mean, the least

890
00:51:02,875 --> 00:51:04,995
Speaker 1: I would say is be very, very careful.

891
00:51:05,315 --> 00:51:10,154
Speaker 2: Yeah, good advice. So what would an older Dinesh say

892
00:51:10,195 --> 00:51:13,525
Speaker 2: to a younger Dinesh? You mentioned you came from India.

893
00:51:13,685 --> 00:51:15,925
Speaker 2: How old were you when you came to the United States?

894
00:51:16,435 --> 00:51:17,575
Speaker 3: I was 17.

895
00:51:17,575 --> 00:51:19,035
Speaker 2: So how old are you now, Dinesh?

896
00:51:19,595 --> 00:51:20,575
Speaker 3: I'm 65.

897
00:51:20,575 --> 00:51:22,975
Speaker 2: You know what, Dinesh? You don't age. I've noticed this.

898
00:51:22,995 --> 00:51:25,765
Speaker 2: You literally look the same as you looked when I

899
00:51:25,805 --> 00:51:27,525
Speaker 2: met you maybe, I don't know, was it 15, 20

900
00:51:27,525 --> 00:51:27,945
Speaker 2: years ago?

901
00:51:29,885 --> 00:51:32,225
Speaker 1: That's because, Pastor Greg, you're not really looking at me,

902
00:51:32,245 --> 00:51:34,665
Speaker 1: you're only looking at an AI version of me.

903
00:51:36,525 --> 00:51:38,665
Speaker 2: I need this program then for myself.

904
00:51:41,155 --> 00:51:44,615
Speaker 3: No, thank you. I appreciate that. Look, age catches up

905
00:51:44,675 --> 00:51:45,895
Speaker 3: with us all in the end.

906
00:51:45,915 --> 00:51:50,555
Speaker 1: I think your question is, how am I different, perhaps, than,

907
00:51:50,575 --> 00:51:52,675
Speaker 1: you know, what would I say to younger Dinesh?

908
00:51:52,715 --> 00:51:53,795
Speaker 3: Is that where you were going with this?

909
00:51:53,815 --> 00:51:54,715
Speaker 2: That's it. That's it.

910
00:51:55,415 --> 00:51:59,625
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say that it was a great blessing

911
00:51:59,725 --> 00:52:02,745
Speaker 1: in my life to have a chance to make my

912
00:52:02,805 --> 00:52:03,845
Speaker 1: life in America.

913
00:52:04,565 --> 00:52:05,905
Speaker 3: It needn't have been that way.

914
00:52:06,945 --> 00:52:09,635
Speaker 1: And it has given me the scope to do all

915
00:52:09,735 --> 00:52:12,875
Speaker 1: kinds of things with my life that would be completely

916
00:52:12,915 --> 00:52:16,375
Speaker 1: impossible had I stayed in India. And quite frankly, would

917
00:52:16,395 --> 00:52:19,975
Speaker 1: be impossible pretty much anywhere in the world. So, you know,

918
00:52:20,035 --> 00:52:24,385
Speaker 1: America is... undergoing a lot of serious problems now. There

919
00:52:24,405 --> 00:52:26,445
Speaker 1: are a lot of young people who think that the

920
00:52:26,485 --> 00:52:29,765
Speaker 1: American dream isn't available to them the way it was

921
00:52:29,845 --> 00:52:32,885
Speaker 1: for their parents. But I do think that that spark

922
00:52:32,945 --> 00:52:36,285
Speaker 1: of the old America endures. And so when I hear

923
00:52:36,345 --> 00:52:39,305
Speaker 1: someone like Trump say, make America great, again, what it

924
00:52:39,365 --> 00:52:45,205
Speaker 1: means to me is bringing back the foundational principles of America,

925
00:52:45,265 --> 00:52:48,825
Speaker 1: the spirit that built America in the 19th century, the

926
00:52:48,875 --> 00:52:52,415
Speaker 1: spirit that I experienced in the 20th century, And one

927
00:52:52,435 --> 00:52:56,515
Speaker 1: that I think can still be not only the protection

928
00:52:56,535 --> 00:52:59,715
Speaker 1: of this country, but will continue to be an example

929
00:52:59,775 --> 00:53:00,395
Speaker 1: to the world.

930
00:53:00,975 --> 00:53:05,915
Speaker 2: Well, through your writings and your films and your son-in-law

931
00:53:05,995 --> 00:53:08,255
Speaker 2: now and all the other things that you do, you've

932
00:53:08,515 --> 00:53:13,915
Speaker 2: contributed so much to strengthening our country. You're a real patriot.

933
00:53:14,495 --> 00:53:17,225
Speaker 2: And we're so proud of all that you've done. And

934
00:53:17,445 --> 00:53:19,225
Speaker 2: thank you for giving us some time. And I want

935
00:53:19,245 --> 00:53:21,915
Speaker 2: to encourage everyone. to go out and get a copy

936
00:53:21,995 --> 00:53:26,195
Speaker 2: of Dinesh D'Souza's brand new book, The Stones Cry Out.

937
00:53:27,055 --> 00:53:29,685
Speaker 2: And how would you sum your book up, maybe just

938
00:53:29,745 --> 00:53:32,405
Speaker 2: in a couple of sentences, this book is about?

939
00:53:34,405 --> 00:53:39,215
Speaker 1: The book surveys 150 years of biblical archaeology. you know,

940
00:53:39,235 --> 00:53:42,035
Speaker 1: when I finished it, it's almost like I created a

941
00:53:42,115 --> 00:53:45,355
Speaker 1: tapestry right above the Bible in which I put in

942
00:53:45,395 --> 00:53:48,215
Speaker 1: all the dates and I drop in all the artifacts.

943
00:53:48,715 --> 00:53:52,555
Speaker 1: So the Bible springs to life as an historical document.

944
00:53:52,595 --> 00:53:55,235
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, it's so important that God didn't

945
00:53:55,295 --> 00:53:58,275
Speaker 1: choose to reveal himself just by like stamping his name

946
00:53:58,335 --> 00:54:00,935
Speaker 1: on the moon or putting the 10 commandments in the sky.

947
00:54:01,295 --> 00:54:05,275
Speaker 1: He chose a particular people. He chose particular places and

948
00:54:05,335 --> 00:54:10,205
Speaker 1: times to unfold his story. And this is the archaeological

949
00:54:10,305 --> 00:54:11,705
Speaker 1: footprints of the Bible.

950
00:54:12,025 --> 00:54:14,685
Speaker 2: And don't you have some QR codes embedded in it

951
00:54:14,745 --> 00:54:17,904
Speaker 2: that people can scan and actually see videos of you

952
00:54:17,985 --> 00:54:19,945
Speaker 2: on location? Absolutely.

953
00:54:20,005 --> 00:54:23,645
Speaker 1: I've got maps and timelines and lots of color photographs

954
00:54:23,705 --> 00:54:26,565
Speaker 1: and also these QR codes. You basically get to, you know,

955
00:54:26,605 --> 00:54:29,705
Speaker 1: it's obviously best to go to all these locations yourself.

956
00:54:30,025 --> 00:54:32,645
Speaker 1: But the second best thing is to experience them through

957
00:54:32,685 --> 00:54:35,425
Speaker 1: the book. You don't just learn about them. You actually

958
00:54:35,465 --> 00:54:37,385
Speaker 1: can see them for yourselves.

959
00:54:37,935 --> 00:54:40,935
Speaker 2: Great. Well, thanks for being on the podcast today. God

960
00:54:40,955 --> 00:54:41,755
Speaker 2: bless you, Dinesh.

961
00:54:42,235 --> 00:54:42,595
Speaker 3: Thank you.