1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Life audio. 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 2: Most of us were taught to think of leadership only 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 2: as something we do. You know, decisions, we make, direction, 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 2: we set pressure, we carry well or maybe don't. But 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 2: somewhere along the way, many leaders discover a more basic truth. 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 2: The most decisive forces shaping our leadership are often the 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 2: ones working beneath the surface. Our habits of attention, our 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 2: relationship to rest, the way we respond when life leads 9 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: us into wilderness rather than into clarity. What if the 10 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 2: deepest leadership work isn't mostly about strategy but about discernment, 11 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: not so much techniques, but being about our formation. 12 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: Friends. 13 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: Hello, I'm Alan Faddling and you're listening to the Unhurried 14 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 2: Living podcast, where we inspire you to rest deeper, fuller, 15 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 2: and lead better. Today's conversation is an invitation to slow 16 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 2: down long enough to notice who we are becoming as 17 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: leaders and why that may matter more than any strategy 18 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 2: we adopt. After a word from our sponsor, I'll dive 19 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 2: into my conversation with Jason Jensen about his new book 20 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: Formed to Lead. Here at Unharried Livin we care deeply 21 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:42,119 Speaker 2: about the integration of spiritual formation and leadership. We believe 22 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,199 Speaker 2: the way we lead is always an expression of who 23 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 2: we are becoming, and that leadership rooted in communing with 24 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 2: God has a very different feel to it than leadership 25 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: driven by pressure, fear, anxiety, or control. As you're listening 26 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 2: to this podcast, I'd love for you to follow us, 27 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 2: and if you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe. It's free 28 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 2: and it helps Unhurried Living be discovered by more people. 29 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 2: In today's episode, I'm joined by Jason Jensen, vice president 30 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: of Spiritual Foundations for Intervarsity Christian Fellowship and author of 31 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: Formed to Lead. Jason has spent decades walking with leaders, 32 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 2: and in our conversation, we explore why good leadership can 33 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 2: never outpace healthy spiritual formation and how scripture, especially the 34 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: Gospel of Luke, offers us a deeply formative vision or 35 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 2: leading well over a lifetime. Now let's dive into my 36 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: conversation with Jason Jensen. Jason, it's a great joy to 37 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: have you on the Unhurried Living Podcast. Thanks for making 38 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 2: some time for us. 39 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 3: So grateful for the chance that. I'm grateful for what 40 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 3: you and Jim are doing with the podcast. I just 41 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 3: am in agreement with the work you're trying to do 42 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 3: and glad to get the chance to talk. 43 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: It's a great treat. Well. 44 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 2: I really enjoyed your book. I know it's pretty important 45 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 2: to us the integration of personal spiritual formation and leadership engagement. 46 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 2: So you obviously right from a place of having lived 47 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: inside leadership for a long time. And so before we 48 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: talk about the book, maybe could you share us share 49 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 2: with us a little bit about the leader you've been 50 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 2: becoming as you've served for so many years in intervarsity 51 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 2: Christian Fellowship. 52 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 3: Wow, that's a great question, Alan, And stories I don't 53 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 3: tell in the book are I feel like there have 54 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 3: been certain conversions for me over the course of leadership. 55 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 3: My work has been with Innervarsity Christian Fellowship for the 56 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 3: last thirty six thirty seven years something like that. And 57 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 3: I started as a campus missionary at UC Berkeley. What 58 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 3: a privilege to serve students and faculty there, and early 59 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 3: there was a lot of conversion for me to the 60 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:29,239 Speaker 3: depth of cross cultural ministry and the gift of God's 61 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 3: presence in the deeply cross cultural. So it has a 62 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 3: white male who grew up in a pretty monocultural setting. 63 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 3: There was a lot to learn for me and a 64 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 3: lot to gain from the Gospel in that process and 65 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 3: a lot to repent of and change. And so that 66 00:04:55,080 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 3: was kind of a long beginning conversion in leadership for me. 67 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 3: And then starting in my thirties, I had a long 68 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 3: conversion as well, toward a more contemplative approach to spirituality 69 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 3: and to leadership. I tell a little bit of that 70 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 3: story in the book where the Lord seemed to clearly 71 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 3: invite me to become a person of prayer who leads 72 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 3: rather than a leader who happens to pray some and 73 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 3: my goodness, that was a big transformation in my life 74 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,679 Speaker 3: that I suppose is still going on. I still hope 75 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 3: to be that person of prayer and hope to be 76 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 3: faithful to leadership in the midst of it. So those 77 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 3: are two big changes for me over the time. 78 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: Well, I so resonate with those stories and with those 79 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 2: conversions as you described them so early on in the book. 80 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 2: You name what sometimes feels like a bit of a 81 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: fracture in at least some Christian leadership, that separation between 82 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: spiritual formation and leadership, or prayer and ministry, or any 83 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: other number of ways you could describe those two places 84 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: in our experience. What do you think we lose when 85 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:23,679 Speaker 2: those get pulled apart. 86 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 3: Gosha, I think we lose everything in the calling of 87 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:36,679 Speaker 3: a Christian who's called to have influence and make culture 88 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 3: in the world. So I tend toward a broad definition 89 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 3: of leadership, not necessarily people who are executives or have 90 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 3: a lot of power, or necessarily even have a lot 91 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 3: of followers at the moment, but rather people who are 92 00:06:54,240 --> 00:07:00,040 Speaker 3: called by God to make culture and have influence in 93 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 3: the world. And Gosh, if that's leadership, then it's got 94 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 3: to all be about who I am becoming by God's 95 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 3: grace and how God is calling me, and those have 96 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 3: to be connected to one another, right It's it's ridiculous 97 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 3: to think of being a person called by God. God 98 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 3: doesn't call people and just use them up like cheap tools. 99 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 3: God calls us and forms us in the same process. 100 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 3: And so I feel like in the places where I 101 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 3: begin to recognize that fracture in myself where leadership is 102 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 3: doing something to me that's not congruent with what the 103 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 3: Lord is cultivating in my life or the way the 104 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 3: Lord is shaping me, then I'm beginning to begin to 105 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 3: learn to recognize, well, that's something evil that's happening, and 106 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 3: that way of leadership is probably not my calling from God. 107 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 3: Of course, aspects of leadership are painful and troubling, and 108 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 3: Jesus promises suffering to those who are faithful. But if 109 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 3: it's tearing my soul or counteracting what the Lord is 110 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 3: doing in me, then it's not the Lord's calling at 111 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 3: the moment. And maybe I'm becoming something I don't want 112 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 3: to become. So I don't know. Those are some ways 113 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 3: that I'm trying to dry out in the book that 114 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 3: we can begin to recognize our calling, and we can 115 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 3: begin to recognize how the Lord is forming us. And 116 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 3: when we put those together, then actually we can better 117 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 3: recognize both of them. 118 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, And in that vision, as I you unpack it, 119 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 2: you know, then each of them informs the other. My 120 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: formation is enriched, it's fostered in those places of expression, 121 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 2: those places of relationality. But then my places of engagement 122 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 2: have a source to them. There's a heartbeat inside of 123 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 2: them that hopefully is resonating with the heart and mind 124 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 2: of Jesus. Feels more and more like your kingdom come 125 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: or will be done, you know something like that. 126 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 3: It seems absolutely and I do think Luke tries to 127 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 3: draw this out in the beginning of his gospel by 128 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 3: these strange contrasts that come out that I think once 129 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 3: we begin to focus in on them, then we see 130 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 3: Luke showing us something new. So, for example, the contrast 131 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 3: between those who are pretty zoom to be leaders in 132 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 3: the world early in Luke's gospel and those who he's 133 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 3: showing as clearly integrated with what God is doing in 134 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 3: the world. So he names these people early in the 135 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 3: gospel with an awkward number of names and number of 136 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 3: times he starts listing people. So chapter one he starts 137 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 3: listing leaders. Chapter two he starts listing leaders. Chapter three 138 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 3: he makes a long list of leaders that include he's 139 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 3: named two Caesars in there, and he's named Punches Pilot 140 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 3: of course, and Herod of course, but also these prefect 141 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 3: people and tetriarchs whoever they are. And we begin to 142 00:10:53,840 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 3: see he's doing more than just anchoring his narrative in 143 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 3: historical validity, right, Luke's doing that. It's clear. He does 144 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 3: it over and over again. And then he puts the 145 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 3: Pilot and Tiberius crowd up next to the Mary and 146 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 3: Elizabeth and Zachariah crowd, and we begin to see, oh, 147 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 3: he's showing a contrast. These caesars and governors and prefects 148 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 3: are merely a footnote in the story that God is 149 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 3: telling in the world. And yet these humble, responsive disciples 150 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 3: like Mary and Elizabeth and Zachariah turn out to be 151 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 3: deeply involved in the revolutionary thing that God is doing 152 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 3: in the world. And I think Luke's trying to stir 153 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:58,359 Speaker 3: up in us hunger to become like Mary and Elizabeth 154 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:03,359 Speaker 3: and Zachariah and Anna and Simon rather than like Tiberius, 155 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 3: Lord have mercy, Let's try for that. 156 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 2: After a brief pause, we'll return to explore how discernment 157 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 2: and rest reshape the way leaders carry responsibility. And so 158 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 2: there again is how our formation perhaps enables us to 159 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 2: be a bit more Simeon like or Zechariah like or 160 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 2: Mary like, rather than taking on some of the values 161 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: and assumptions and ways of leading that surround us in 162 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 2: our culture. 163 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, and a lot of the messages about leadership that 164 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 3: come at us are about an addiction to success, or 165 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 3: about money, or about platform or about technique. All of 166 00:12:54,559 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: those things are valid and important. Right succeeding if all 167 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 3: things are equal and you're faithful to God succeeding is 168 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 3: probably better than failing at a lot of stuff, although 169 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 3: sure we may learn more from failure than success, and 170 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 3: better technique better than worse technique, sure, if we're faithful, 171 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 3: But we, I think often do come to this fork 172 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 3: in the road where one direction goes toward smart and 173 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 3: fast and all the addictions that a lot of the 174 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 3: leadership literature points to, but the other fork goes to 175 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 3: healthy and holy. I think we need to learn to 176 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 3: look for those forks in the road, and if we're 177 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 3: following Jesus, we always have to bet our whole lives 178 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 3: unhealthy and holy in that place. And if all things 179 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 3: are equal and it's healthy and holy, then smarter and 180 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 3: faster for sure. 181 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: Sure, But. 182 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 3: My goodness, those forks in the road do seem to come, don't. 183 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 2: They They come more often maybe than I notice. 184 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. 185 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 2: Well yeah, And so as we talk about formation, for example, 186 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: I think I love one of the ways you sort 187 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: of I think that you highlight that is that that 188 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 2: sense of who we are. You emphasize, for example, that 189 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 2: Jesus hears the voice of the Father, you know, at 190 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 2: his baptism, expressing his affection and his delight before he 191 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: has a ministry resume, you know, so to speak. That's 192 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: been a very transformative awareness for me as well. I 193 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: wonder if you could say a little more about that, 194 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 2: because I think that's so critical, and it's so lifespan long. 195 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: It seems to me. 196 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 3: I personally just find I need to come back to 197 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 3: that baptism narrative. And in fact, I have an Eastern 198 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 3: Orthodox icon of the Baptism of Jesus that hangs in 199 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 3: my prayer room and I gaze at it every day 200 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 3: because I need renewed in me that sense of the overflowing, 201 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 3: abundant love of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and the 202 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 3: words spoken over the Lord Jesus and then over me, 203 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 3: this is my beloved child, with whom I'm well pleased. 204 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 3: And it's out of the abundance of that sense of 205 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 3: family and affection and the creative pleasure of God. It's 206 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 3: only out of that abundance can I be free to 207 00:15:55,120 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 3: discern and make choices in a given day. Need that 208 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 3: every day. I think most of us probably need a 209 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 3: dose of that every day, and to remember our own baptism, 210 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 3: that we are with Jesus in those waters of baptism, 211 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 3: being renewed, being raised again, being delivered from one side 212 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 3: of the waters to the other. I just I love 213 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 3: all the liturgies that surround that from different traditions as well. 214 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, well for sure. Well, I just find if that 215 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 2: awareness of my belovedness as a gift rather than my 216 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 2: identity as some kind of paycheck, I have to just 217 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 2: keep on earning. When that grows thin, then I go 218 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: to my work to try and get something from it 219 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 2: that my work just can't ever give me. Yes, But 220 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 2: I live in a culture that says it can and 221 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 2: maybe even should. And that's one of the great sort 222 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 2: of countercultural tensions I experience in my own life. From leadership. 223 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 2: I wonder what that's been like for you. 224 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 3: Well, absolutely, and I think it gets to some of 225 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 3: the heart of my temperamental and habitual sin. I am 226 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 3: an enneagram one to the extent that that means anything 227 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 3: to you and your listeners. Sure means I'm perfectionist, and 228 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 3: I judge myself quite harshly on performance, and Jesus wants 229 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 3: to speak into that. I struggle with anxiety regularly about 230 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 3: am I doing enough? Am I doing right? Or aspects 231 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 3: of that that come out of my family of origin 232 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 3: and early wounding, and again, the Lord Jesus needs to 233 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 3: speak to that regularly for me. And is I believe 234 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 3: making me in to a prophetic person of peace by 235 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 3: his own grace? Right? 236 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: Not by yeah, yeah, any of. 237 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 3: The ways that I'm fundamentally flawed, but rather just by 238 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 3: redeeming those parts of me and inviting me into something 239 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 3: better and different. 240 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 241 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Well, maybe going back to that passage in Luke 242 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 2: where we read of the baptism, what comes next in 243 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 2: the story then is wilderness, which I don't think most 244 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 2: of us, if we're writing the story, want that to 245 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 2: be the next moment in our story, and yet it 246 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 2: often is. Yes, that wilderness is a place of formation. 247 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 2: It feels disorienting it, it feels like weakness or isolation, 248 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 2: and yet it becomes the very place, I think where 249 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 2: where something gets tested and maybe gets more deeply established. 250 00:18:58,560 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 2: Can you say more about that? 251 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, And I think it's so important, and I 252 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 3: think Luke is being intentional with wilderness as the whole 253 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 3: of scripture. Wilderness is a sort of character, right. It's 254 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 3: the place that the people of Israel go out to 255 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 3: worship the Lord, and it's the place where they sin 256 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 3: and are really remade over a long time of unfaithfulness. 257 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 3: It's the place where they move from having become slaves 258 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 3: to becoming the people of God who enter the land. 259 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 3: And similarly with us. And I think it's curious to 260 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 3: see Luke's description that Jesus gets anointed as the Messiah 261 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 3: at his baptism and then he follows the lead of 262 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 3: the spirit. The spirit leads him into the wilderness of temptation. 263 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 3: It's curious to me that the Messiah doesn't make power 264 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 3: moves at that point, but follows and goes into this 265 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:15,959 Speaker 3: furnace of testing, where Jesus is faithful in the furnace 266 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 3: of testing. And I think about that in a couple 267 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 3: of different ways. One of the ways is just considering 268 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 3: the wilderness as the place of ourship and suffering and 269 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 3: isolation for us. I do think in the Biblical narrative, 270 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,239 Speaker 3: the wilderness represents that it's the place of danger and 271 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 3: the lonely place and the place where it's hard to survive. 272 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,959 Speaker 3: And for most leaders, I think, who are trying to 273 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 3: grow into faithful followers of Jesus, we do learn more 274 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 3: in the wilderness of suffering and pain than we do 275 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 3: in a lot of other places. We learn to seek 276 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 3: God in the midst of the experience of wilderness, whether 277 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 3: that's isolation or brief or suffering of different kinds. God 278 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 3: uses those to shape us. So I think one way 279 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 3: that I think of the wilderness and spiritual formation and 280 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 3: leadership is that how suffering shapes us and how we 281 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 3: learn to intentionally receive the Lord's formation in the midst 282 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 3: of suffering. But then the other way is that the 283 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 3: ways that we face temptation are the identity that God 284 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 3: gives us and the affection and pleasure he speaks over 285 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 3: us get tested by evil in the world. The evil 286 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 3: comes at us just like the devil comes at Jesus 287 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 3: in the wilderness after his baptism and pushes our buttons, 288 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 3: And in that place we're shaped to the extent that 289 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 3: we depend on the Word, on community, on spiritual disciplines. 290 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 3: So it's no mistake that Jesus goes out in the 291 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 3: wilderness in fasting and prayer. Well, those are not popular 292 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 3: leadership disciplines necessarily, but maybe they should be. Maybe we 293 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 3: ought to hear about fasting as the first thing that 294 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 3: Jesus does when he's anointed by the spirit, and when 295 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 3: he goes into the wilderness and is tempted by Satan. 296 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 3: His responses all come out of Deuteronomy six through eight. Clearly, 297 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 3: he's gone into the wilderness, not just fasting, but meditating 298 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 3: on the word. That was the word to Israel about 299 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 3: faithfulness in the wilderness, and gosh, should we take those 300 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 3: notes from Jesus as well and learn to engage our 301 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 3: temptations by meditating on the word. For us, we also 302 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 3: need community in that place. So it's I think the 303 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 3: wilderness and the temptation represent to me how we metabolize 304 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 3: the suffering that we receive and also how we engage 305 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 3: temptation by intentional spiritual disciplines. 306 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so well well said. So you know, maybe 307 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 2: jumping off from there, one of the insights you shared, 308 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 2: I think is so important is you speak about the 309 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 2: import ordance of discernment. A lot of times leaders their 310 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 2: first question is what are we going to do? How 311 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 2: are we going to do it? Who's going to do 312 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 2: it with me? It's a what question, and discernment is 313 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 2: a step before you get there that we I think 314 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,439 Speaker 2: sometimes rush past. I guess, maybe what have been some 315 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 2: of the ways that you have learned to lead with 316 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 2: lead with discernment, rather than you know, jump in and 317 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 2: do a thing and then then try to discern what's 318 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:30,959 Speaker 2: going on. 319 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:37,479 Speaker 3: Yeah, what a huge and important question. It I've worked 320 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 3: thirteen different Urbana Conferences World Mission Conference that inter Varsity 321 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 3: puts on every three years or so. And if we 322 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 3: ever put on seminars that are about how to discover 323 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 3: God's calling in your life, they get flooded with people, 324 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 3: right because we're looking for a cheap parlor trick that 325 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 3: will just to know exactly what I'm called to and 326 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 3: how to do that. Well, I think it turns out 327 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 3: it's more complicated than that, and it is possible, I think, 328 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 3: to know the Lord's calling in a moment and to 329 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 3: know what's in front of me today, what's most important today, 330 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:30,719 Speaker 3: and to give myself to that. It's harder to figure 331 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 3: out what's the big map and exactly what am I 332 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 3: supposed to do for the next fifty years. So that's 333 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 3: where I think for me, the metaphor of pilgrimage is helpful. 334 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 3: My wife and I walked the Camino Santiago across Spain 335 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 3: a few years ago. Wonderful privilege that was to be 336 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 3: on a long pilgrimage of about four hundred and fifty 337 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 3: miles over the course of a month, and along the Demino, 338 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 3: you're going toward a particular religious site, and you walk 339 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 3: all day every day, and then you're really tired and 340 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 3: you stay at night. But the first thing you got 341 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 3: to figure out when you're taking on another day, is 342 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 3: am I facing in the right direction in this case 343 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 3: towards Santiago de Cos, destination of this pilgrimage. And then 344 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 3: you walk and you look for signs, and you see 345 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 3: these trail signs all along the way. I think it's 346 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 3: a helpful image for discernment to me in that first 347 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 3: I need to orient myself in the right direction. And 348 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 3: the right direction starts with am I repenting and turning 349 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 3: from idolatry in my life? Am I submitting to the 350 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 3: leadership of Jesus. Am I telling the truth with a 351 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 3: group of friends. Am I a part of a local 352 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 3: congregation trying to do this together. And am I seeking 353 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 3: the Lord's will in the large shape of my life today, 354 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 3: trying to be obedient and faithful and deeper than yesterday 355 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:26,120 Speaker 3: by God's mercy. If I'm doing those things, then I'm 356 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 3: facing in the right direction today, and I can walk 357 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 3: forward and expect I'm probably going to see one of 358 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 3: those yellow arrows, which is the sign on the camino 359 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 3: or the picture of a shell that points you in 360 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 3: the right direction to go, And I can expect I'm 361 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 3: going to see one, and I'm going to be able 362 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 3: to recognize, Oh, that was something that the Spirit was 363 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 3: doing in my life today or this month. But if 364 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 3: I don't ask those prior questions, there's a good chance 365 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 3: I'm going in the opposite direction and I'm not going 366 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 3: to see those arrows because they're on the other side 367 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 3: of the fence or the tree or the building. 368 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. 369 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 3: I find that kind of helpful in thinking about discernment, 370 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 3: to think first about my orientation toward the fundamental things 371 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 3: of God. Yeah, and then looking for what's the spirit saying, 372 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 3: I'm not going to get the big calling for my life. 373 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 3: Probably in a short moment of listening prayer, I'm right 374 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 3: exactly what to do for the rest of my life. 375 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 3: Might get something, and that's awesome, but I'm better off 376 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 3: if I face the right direction first. 377 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. I appreciate that. 378 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 2: I've sometimes thought, you know, that what a lot of 379 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 2: leaders want what I have sometimes wanted is a complete, 380 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 2: you know, map of the whole journey. I can just 381 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 2: put it in my pocket, go running off and make 382 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 2: it happen. And maybe to use a slightly different metaphor, 383 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 2: it seems to me that Jesus really is offering himself 384 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 2: to us as guide, which is something relational and ongoing, 385 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 2: and he'll hold the map in his heart and I'll 386 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 2: perhaps find my way forward in that place of communion. 387 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and it just leads us then to surprising places. 388 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: It's surely that's because. 389 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 3: The Lord's leading and we're not making a master plan necessarily, 390 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 3: and leads us to surprising disciplines like practicing the ignation. 391 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 3: Examine each day to me simply just asking questions, what 392 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 3: did I recognize today as the Lord's grace? Was there 393 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 3: something where did I experience just glimmers of grace? And 394 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 3: then where did I miss them or somehow decide against 395 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,479 Speaker 3: and the spirits leading? And what do I most want? 396 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 3: Those three basic questions each day help me to learn 397 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 3: day by day when I see the patterns. Oh, that's 398 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 3: how I pay attention to the Guide in my life, 399 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 3: because it doesn't come naturally for me necessarily. 400 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I hear you well kind of in that. I 401 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 2: guess there's a gracious honesty that I appreciate in the 402 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 2: way you describe leadership pressure and how that can sometimes 403 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 2: deform our souls. I don't know about your experience, but 404 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 2: in my conversations with leaders, maybe especially in the last 405 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 2: five years, just feels like it's been about as hard 406 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 2: a season to be a leader as maybe ever, at 407 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 2: least in my adult life. I'm in my mid sixties, 408 00:30:55,560 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 2: so I've been in ministry forties years, and I really 409 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 2: resonated with that sense of how pressure can deform us. 410 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 2: So maybe talk so about that. Maybe what are some 411 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 2: of the warning signs that you're letting pressure deform you. 412 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 3: I'll tell a brief story here that was instructive to 413 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 3: me in the last couple of years. I began to 414 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 3: recognize in twenty three and twenty four just a decreasing 415 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 3: reservoir of emotional energy. I was fine and relatively healthy, 416 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 3: and I had some joy. It wasn't a terrible period 417 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 3: of desolation, and I wasn't depressed. I just started losing 418 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:56,479 Speaker 3: energy more quickly. Also, I'm getting old, but it seemed 419 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 3: more than that. 420 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, And on. 421 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 3: Examination of that, with prayerful friends who were praying for 422 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 3: me and with me, and accountability partners who have walked 423 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 3: with me for years. We just began to recognize there's something, 424 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 3: there's some trauma in there that is not sufficiently resolved. 425 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 3: And looking more closely at that, I went back to 426 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 3: a number of things that had happened in leadership that 427 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 3: were deeply painful and hard, and began to recognize, Oh, 428 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 3: I think I cut short the healing that God had 429 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 3: for me. I did enough to be able to move 430 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 3: forward and be helpful. I didn't do enough to be well, 431 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 3: and so was able to find there was some deeper 432 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 3: work for me to do in a period of sabbatical 433 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 3: than in the end of twenty four that I think 434 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 3: really restored my soul. I recognized in another period that 435 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,719 Speaker 3: whenever I had a certain kind of conversation that was conflict, 436 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 3: I felt a pressure in my chest in a particular place. 437 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 3: It took me a bunch of those experiences to realize, Hey, wait, 438 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 3: I've read and heard enough about trauma to recognize, Oh, 439 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 3: the body does keep the score. That weird feeling is 440 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 3: because there's some wounds in there. And so man found 441 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 3: a therapist who could help me during that time. So 442 00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 3: to me, I think it's just been paying attention to 443 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 3: my body and my heart to recognize is there something 444 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 3: and be able to ask the question with my friends 445 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 3: is this normal? Or is there something that needs some 446 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:22,399 Speaker 3: deeper help for me? And when I'm able to say, yes, 447 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 3: there's something that needs some deeper help, to be happy 448 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 3: about that rather than embarrassed or ashamed because my goodness, 449 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 3: whenever I've found it's the right time to go get 450 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 3: some therapy, it's been transformational in my life. It's been 451 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 3: super helpful. It is time for healing, prayer or something deeper, 452 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 3: or a change of my patterns. I've found it's a 453 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 3: great liberating thing for me. It's not shameful to recognize 454 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,879 Speaker 3: I'm broken now, I'm broken all the time. Let's look 455 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 3: for those chances. 456 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: To grow well. 457 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: And it seems to me, as I hear thank you 458 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 2: for that story, it seems to me that this is 459 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 2: one of the ways that formation and leadership intersect, that 460 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 2: there's a very real sense. It seems to me that 461 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 2: the grace you're experiencing in those places of personal wound 462 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 2: or need or trauma or whatever inevitably become an expression 463 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 2: of influence and leadership as you then return to the 464 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 2: relationships God's giving you the opportunities that he brings across 465 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 2: your path, that you're growing in grace, and now you 466 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: have lived grace to offer. There's something potent about that. 467 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 3: Yes, agreed. And I think that's where how we think 468 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 3: about spiritual authority is at stake as well. So I 469 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 3: try to address that just a little bit in the books, 470 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 3: not the main topic. But I think we're often mistaken 471 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 3: about spiritual authority because we think it's some kind of 472 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 3: a charisma or fancy trick that happens where then I 473 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 3: can speak demons be gone, and they're gone. I believe 474 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 3: in deliverance and spiritual power and all that kind of stuff, 475 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 3: But I think the Gospel says spiritual authority is mainly 476 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 3: gained by simple faithfulness under temptation, by learning righteousness little 477 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 3: by little and learning humility little by little, and receiving 478 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 3: the grace of God, and that over a long time 479 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 3: makes a person who is absolutely filled with God's power 480 00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:00,919 Speaker 3: to love and see the transformation of others. I think 481 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 3: that's it's certainly a change of mind from thinking about 482 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 3: spiritual authority as some kind of a weird superpower thing that. Yeah, 483 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 3: that's an insulting way to say it, but I think 484 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 3: we often think about it that way, like it's the 485 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 3: fancy people who talk real good who authority, when maybe 486 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 3: it's actually the saints who have lived righteousness under suffering. 487 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:38,479 Speaker 3: They may have more to offer in the end, And boy, 488 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 3: I'd rather become one of those than a fancy person 489 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:42,919 Speaker 3: who talks good. 490 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, it's I've recently been sort 491 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 2: of struck. 492 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: You know. 493 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 2: Jesus describes himself in that Matthew text his humble and 494 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 2: gentle in heart, and then Paul his Corinthian letters appeals 495 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 2: to the humility and gentleness of Christ, and it seems 496 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 2: to me there's something there that that's where authority is rooted. 497 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 2: It's in that quiet, gentle, solid sort of place of humility, 498 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 2: rather than the sparkly, explosive sort of places, glaring sorts 499 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 2: of places that sometimes we assume that's how we that's 500 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 2: how we express authority. And I think that's what you've 501 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 2: said just sounds so in keeping with the spirit of Jesus, 502 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 2: in the spirit of the Kingdom of God. 503 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 3: Agreed. Yeah, yeah. And and of course leaders have to 504 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:46,760 Speaker 3: do hard things and leaders fair pain, and leaders often 505 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:52,799 Speaker 3: have to move forward with something. I just think we 506 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 3: often expect too much of strategically doing the next thing 507 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 3: with the right technique, and too little of how do 508 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,359 Speaker 3: we bear pain faithfully for a lifetime and stay. 509 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 1: In the game. 510 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:14,800 Speaker 3: I've had the privilege of seeing some faithful people really 511 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 3: last a lifetime and continue loving and influencing, and my goodness, 512 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 3: that really bears an abundant harvest over a lifetime. 513 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 2: It really does. Yeah, so well said Well. One of 514 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 2: the things I appreciated about your book, you wrote a 515 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 2: chapter on sabbath, and I've sometimes said, you know that 516 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 2: we're a culture that has a very robust work ethic, 517 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 2: but just nearly no rest ethic. We don't have a 518 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 2: sense of how rest and work intersect. And to me, 519 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 2: that's just another way of talking about a fascet anyway 520 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 2: of how formation and leadership integrate. Can you say a 521 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 2: little bit more about sabbath and rest, you know, not 522 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 2: so much as a productivity hack, but but as a 523 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 2: rhythm or a way of life that Jesus models for 524 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:05,320 Speaker 2: us and invites us to. 525 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And it's one of the things I love 526 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 3: about your writing and your ministry and the work that 527 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 3: you and jem do is there is something to the 528 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 3: unhurried and rested life that is the shape of the Gospel. 529 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 3: And so I do think Sabbath and overall patterns and 530 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 3: rule of life that has a place for rest. It 531 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 3: shows the shape of grace in our lives. Right and 532 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 3: hurry and lack of rest and a lack of Sabbath 533 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 3: patterns shows idolatry that says my work is more important 534 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 3: than who I'm beco and what God is doing in 535 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,760 Speaker 3: the world war shows I don't really trust that God 536 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 3: is the prime actor in history, that God is the 537 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 3: author and protagonist and we're going to end up. I 538 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 3: just love the way the scriptures tell the story that 539 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 3: everyone will be surprised and it will be more beautiful 540 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 3: than we imagined in all of our hunger and thirst 541 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 3: for the beautiful and redemptive and just will be fulfilled 542 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 3: surprisingly in the end. Well, if that's the story, how 543 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 3: do I enter into that story rather than grinding the 544 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 3: gears every day in order to try and write my 545 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 3: own heroic narrative. So in that sense, I just think 546 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 3: God very intentionally tried to shape a people around Sabbath practice. 547 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 3: To be distinctive in all the earth, and my goodness, 548 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 3: Sabbath practice does make the people of God distinctive in 549 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:19,280 Speaker 3: all the earth. People don't stop and worship and enjoy 550 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 3: and believe that it's God who is working in history. 551 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,879 Speaker 3: I am indebtitived. Eugene Peterson, way back in the day, 552 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 3: wrote an article called the Pastor's Sabbath in his magazine 553 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 3: back in the old days of and and he described 554 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 3: for me for the first time the concept of the 555 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:54,439 Speaker 3: Hebrew day starting at sundown, and the reality that if 556 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 3: we believe that, when then we begin with rest, believing 557 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 3: that God is at work, and we wake up and 558 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,360 Speaker 3: we enter into what God is doing in the world, 559 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 3: and then we begin again with rest. Wouldn't that make 560 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,360 Speaker 3: a different kind of people? I hope it shapes my 561 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 3: life in a certain way, to believe more fundamentally in 562 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 3: God's goodness in the midst of my rest than in 563 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 3: my need to make the world into something. 564 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, so well said, Yeah, I really resonate. Well, I 565 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,920 Speaker 2: have really enjoyed the conversation. Maybe as we come to 566 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 2: a close, and as I hope many of our listeners 567 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 2: will get your book and benefit from it, what are 568 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 2: some of the hopes you carry for those who will 569 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 2: read this book, maybe some inner shifts that you're praying 570 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,360 Speaker 2: that might happen in their lives. 571 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,840 Speaker 3: Well, I think I hope and pray or hope most 572 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 3: fundamentally that we could imagine there is a deeper way 573 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,879 Speaker 3: that we could imagine We're not going to be necessarily 574 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 3: relegated to. If I want to be a leader, I'm 575 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,320 Speaker 3: going to become one of these people that maybe doesn't 576 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 3: quite smell like the gospel, or their leadership, the shape 577 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 3: of their influence doesn't tell a story like the Gospel. No, 578 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 3: it's possible. It's possible to integrate you're becoming with your 579 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:36,800 Speaker 3: calling and to follow Jesus for a lifetime. It's possible 580 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:41,239 Speaker 3: to find a sustainable way to be faithful, even though 581 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 3: it costs us our whole life. There are ways to 582 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:53,760 Speaker 3: enter in and become more joyful, become more RESTful over 583 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 3: a life filled with challenge and suffering. It's possible to 584 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 3: become more like Jesus and more full in the end. 585 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 3: So the hope that there's a deeper way would be 586 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 3: my main invitation. 587 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 2: But I sure resonate with that. Thank you so much, 588 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 2: and again today My guest has been Jason Jensen, and 589 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 2: we've been talking about his book, Formed to Lead. Jason, 590 00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 2: it's been such a pleasure to talk with you today. 591 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,400 Speaker 3: Thank you so grateful for the chance and glad to 592 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 3: be partners. 593 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 2: Thanks, thank you for listening to the Unhurry Living podcast. 594 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 2: To learn more about us, visit unhurryliving dot com. In 595 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 2: the show notes, you'll find helpful links and information about 596 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,800 Speaker 2: our partner Life Audio, and all of their other faith 597 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:46,120 Speaker 2: centered podcasts.