1 00:00:00,710 --> 00:00:03,190 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. 2 00:00:03,210 --> 00:00:06,189 Speaker 1: James Spencer. I'm joined by my co-host, Dr. Ashish Varma. 3 00:00:06,370 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 2: And we have a guest today who we're really excited about, 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:11,140 Speaker 2: William T. 5 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: Kavanaugh, who is from DePaul University. 6 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 2: He's a professor of Catholic studies and director for the 7 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: Center of World Catholicism and Intercultural Theology. He's also the 8 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,700 Speaker 2: author of The Uses of Idolatry and a number of 9 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:27,950 Speaker 2: other books. One of my favorites is Torture and Eucharist, 10 00:00:28,250 --> 00:00:32,450 Speaker 2: excellent book about the Pinochet regime in Chile, as well 11 00:00:32,510 --> 00:00:34,669 Speaker 2: as Migrations of the Holy, which I'm sure we'll touch on, 12 00:00:34,970 --> 00:00:40,190 Speaker 2: and Theopolitical Imagination, which was one of his earlier works. 13 00:00:40,229 --> 00:00:42,830 Speaker 2: And so we're excited to welcome William Kavanaugh. 14 00:00:43,250 --> 00:00:44,979 Speaker 1: Bill, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here. 15 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,500 Speaker 3: Oh, thanks very much, James and Ashish. Good to be here. 16 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,059 Speaker 2: Well- We're in the midst of this series on faith 17 00:00:53,180 --> 00:00:57,100 Speaker 2: and politics, and you've written an awful lot on topics 18 00:00:57,140 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: related to faith and politics and ancillary to faith and politics. 19 00:01:00,420 --> 00:01:02,820 Speaker 2: And so I guess my first question, and I'll try 20 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:04,420 Speaker 2: to make this a little bit of a softball just 21 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: to kind of get our conversation going, is how do 22 00:01:07,500 --> 00:01:13,830 Speaker 2: you actually think about politics from a theological perspective? Is 23 00:01:15,430 --> 00:01:21,690 Speaker 2: it for you something that is separate from politics? Christianity, faith, theology, 24 00:01:21,810 --> 00:01:23,710 Speaker 2: or is it something that's a little bit more integrated? 25 00:01:23,730 --> 00:01:27,810 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's integrated. And I think you can see that, 26 00:01:28,430 --> 00:01:31,450 Speaker 3: you know, just in the Bible already, Jesus is using 27 00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 3: political language, talking about the kingdom of God. And Jesus 28 00:01:36,740 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 3: is referred to as the king, you know, king of 29 00:01:40,300 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 3: the Jews and so on. So there's all kinds of 30 00:01:43,660 --> 00:01:50,050 Speaker 3: political language. The word gospel is is originally derived from 31 00:01:50,970 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 3: a Roman political ceremony that the Evangelium that's from the Greek, 32 00:02:01,260 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 3: which is the good news of the return of the 33 00:02:04,460 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 3: emperor and so on. I mean, there's all kinds of 34 00:02:07,580 --> 00:02:12,549 Speaker 3: political language that's there in the Bible already. And I 35 00:02:12,610 --> 00:02:16,230 Speaker 3: think the way that we tend to think about it 36 00:02:16,290 --> 00:02:19,150 Speaker 3: these days has kind of gotten separated. So we tend 37 00:02:19,169 --> 00:02:25,290 Speaker 3: to separate Sunday from Monday through Friday. And a lot 38 00:02:25,310 --> 00:02:26,970 Speaker 3: of that has to do with the way we define 39 00:02:27,389 --> 00:02:29,630 Speaker 3: what we mean by politics and what we tend to 40 00:02:29,669 --> 00:02:33,150 Speaker 3: mean by politics these days is having to do with 41 00:02:33,250 --> 00:02:38,989 Speaker 3: power in the nation state. And that is a relatively 42 00:02:39,110 --> 00:02:43,570 Speaker 3: kind of new narrowing of the term power. politics that's 43 00:02:43,610 --> 00:02:46,870 Speaker 3: associated with Max Weber and others in the 20th century. 44 00:02:47,270 --> 00:02:51,710 Speaker 3: But if you go back to Aristotle's idea of politics, 45 00:02:52,010 --> 00:02:55,460 Speaker 3: it has a much broader sense of just what does 46 00:02:55,510 --> 00:02:58,100 Speaker 3: it mean? How do we organize ourselves to get along? 47 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 3: How do we serve the common good together? How do 48 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 3: we structure our lives together? And so in that sense, 49 00:03:06,700 --> 00:03:09,859 Speaker 3: it's got a much broader sense. It's not just about 50 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 3: who to vote for every four years. or every two years. Um, 51 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,850 Speaker 3: but it's about how do we, you know, how do 52 00:03:15,889 --> 00:03:16,510 Speaker 3: we live together? 53 00:03:17,750 --> 00:03:20,570 Speaker 2: When you think about that sort of integration of theology 54 00:03:20,590 --> 00:03:23,790 Speaker 2: and you, you think about that broader sense. So like when, 55 00:03:24,370 --> 00:03:28,310 Speaker 2: when politics had this notion of public life together, was 56 00:03:28,340 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: there also a Christian or a theological sense about how 57 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,220 Speaker 2: politics worked within society that would have been different from 58 00:03:36,260 --> 00:03:37,380 Speaker 2: that broader public life? 59 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. I mean, you look at, um, 60 00:03:42,110 --> 00:03:47,330 Speaker 3: The way the church thought of itself, the term ecclesia, 61 00:03:48,470 --> 00:03:53,950 Speaker 3: the biblical term, the Greek term for church, has roots 62 00:03:54,230 --> 00:03:59,810 Speaker 3: in the Hebrew sense of assembly, kind of assembly before God. 63 00:03:59,940 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 3: And in ecclesia, in Greek, ecclesia is kind of the 64 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:11,500 Speaker 3: assembly of the citizens of a city-state. And so there's 65 00:04:11,540 --> 00:04:14,690 Speaker 3: a sense in which it's not so much just about 66 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:20,310 Speaker 3: having power over the whole, but it's a sense of 67 00:04:20,470 --> 00:04:27,029 Speaker 3: kind of how we see ourselves as doing something different 68 00:04:27,089 --> 00:04:29,050 Speaker 3: in the world. And I think the church in a 69 00:04:29,089 --> 00:04:32,770 Speaker 3: lot of ways in the early centuries thought of itself 70 00:04:33,060 --> 00:04:38,770 Speaker 3: as kind of being a, a third thing, a tertium quid, 71 00:04:39,110 --> 00:04:43,650 Speaker 3: other than the individual on the one hand or the 72 00:04:43,690 --> 00:04:46,210 Speaker 3: powers that be on the other hand. It was this 73 00:04:46,290 --> 00:04:50,489 Speaker 3: other kind of community that was ushering in the kingdom 74 00:04:50,529 --> 00:04:56,169 Speaker 3: of God. And that made it both public but not 75 00:04:56,490 --> 00:04:59,510 Speaker 3: kind of looking for power. And so the early Christians 76 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,220 Speaker 3: for the first three centuries, for the most part, did 77 00:05:02,260 --> 00:05:07,750 Speaker 3: not participate in the military, for example. They thought that 78 00:05:08,010 --> 00:05:10,770 Speaker 3: a Christian could not kill, but that didn't mean that 79 00:05:10,790 --> 00:05:16,930 Speaker 3: they were just thought of themselves as a private club 80 00:05:17,010 --> 00:05:20,870 Speaker 3: or something like that. It was something more than that, 81 00:05:20,970 --> 00:05:25,570 Speaker 3: this kind of public community that was the herald of 82 00:05:26,230 --> 00:05:28,489 Speaker 3: what God is doing with the world. 83 00:05:30,150 --> 00:05:32,570 Speaker 2: And you sort of pull that through in Migrations of 84 00:05:32,589 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 2: the Holy, so how the state or the nation takes 85 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 2: up some of the sacred terms, let's say, of Christianity 86 00:05:43,380 --> 00:05:46,219 Speaker 2: and becomes in and of itself almost like a religious 87 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:51,549 Speaker 2: organization making quasi theological claims, even though it wouldn't frame 88 00:05:51,589 --> 00:05:54,230 Speaker 2: them that way. I don't know whether I'm representing that well, 89 00:05:54,250 --> 00:05:55,929 Speaker 2: but maybe you can explain it a little differently. 90 00:05:56,510 --> 00:06:00,310 Speaker 3: Sure. Yeah, I think I think that's pretty clear. And 91 00:06:00,330 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 3: that's that's not anything new. you know, the Roman emperors 92 00:06:06,060 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 3: considered themselves gods, and so you have this kind of 93 00:06:11,230 --> 00:06:15,670 Speaker 3: dense intertwining of political power, what we would call political power, 94 00:06:15,810 --> 00:06:21,710 Speaker 3: with divinity, with sacredness. It's worked out in a different 95 00:06:21,750 --> 00:06:27,510 Speaker 3: way in the medieval period where you've got two different forces. 96 00:06:27,570 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 3: You've got the church on the one hand and the 97 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 3: the ecclesiastical authorities, and then you've got the kings and princes, 98 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,100 Speaker 3: on the other hand, who thought of themselves as also 99 00:06:41,180 --> 00:06:45,430 Speaker 3: serving the kingdom, and you have this kind of tension 100 00:06:45,470 --> 00:06:49,230 Speaker 3: between these two parties. But then in the early modern period, 101 00:06:49,290 --> 00:06:52,450 Speaker 3: it tends to be all the sacredness kind of gets 102 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 3: sucked into the state, the kind of new nation state 103 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,420 Speaker 3: that arises in the modern period. And so that's why 104 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,980 Speaker 3: I call that the migration of the holy. It's actually 105 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 3: a term that I borrowed from the historian John Bossie, 106 00:07:08,220 --> 00:07:11,250 Speaker 3: who looks at the way that all of the kind 107 00:07:11,260 --> 00:07:15,470 Speaker 3: of trappings, the kind of liturgical trappings that used to 108 00:07:15,530 --> 00:07:21,110 Speaker 3: be the province of the church now become the... the 109 00:07:21,170 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 3: province of the state. So Queen Elizabeth I, for example, 110 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,420 Speaker 3: borrows all this kind of imagery from Corpus Christi processions 111 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 3: and suppresses Corpus Christi processions at the same time that 112 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,590 Speaker 3: she's kind of putting herself in the place of the 113 00:07:39,710 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 3: Eucharist in all of these kind of ceremonial ways. And 114 00:07:45,340 --> 00:07:49,180 Speaker 3: so that's a very clear kind of movement in the 115 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 3: early modern period. And you can still see it even 116 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 3: in so-called secular nation states like the United States. There's 117 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,900 Speaker 3: all kinds of that sort of symbolism. If you look 118 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,270 Speaker 3: up into the dome of the Capitol building, for example, 119 00:08:04,250 --> 00:08:08,390 Speaker 3: what you see is a painting on the dome called 120 00:08:08,410 --> 00:08:13,450 Speaker 3: The Apotheosis of Washington. the becoming God of Washington. It's 121 00:08:13,490 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 3: George Washington ascending into the heavens surrounded by these mythological figures. 122 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 3: It was painted by Constantino Brumidi, who had previously worked 123 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 3: for the Vatican. And so all of this very much continues. 124 00:08:32,340 --> 00:08:32,979 Speaker 1: Ashish, anything? 125 00:08:36,540 --> 00:08:36,900 Speaker 3: I have a. 126 00:08:43,230 --> 00:08:47,219 Speaker 4: I have a somewhat funny question, but there's a method 127 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,150 Speaker 4: to the madness, so if you can bear with it. 128 00:08:49,380 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 4: So I like sci-fi a lot, and one of the 129 00:08:52,860 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 4: things that actually irritates me about sci-fi is that when 130 00:08:55,400 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 4: you watch, there seems to be this very linear projection 131 00:09:00,740 --> 00:09:04,510 Speaker 4: of the development of societies. So you can go from 132 00:09:04,590 --> 00:09:06,790 Speaker 4: one planet to the next, and as you arrive at 133 00:09:06,809 --> 00:09:08,510 Speaker 4: the next planet, you know where they are, and they 134 00:09:08,530 --> 00:09:12,630 Speaker 4: can map them relative to especially the US, but generally speaking, 135 00:09:12,730 --> 00:09:17,230 Speaker 4: Western nation civility development. And then they project that into 136 00:09:17,250 --> 00:09:19,790 Speaker 4: the future, right? Because in the sci-fi shows, we're living 137 00:09:19,830 --> 00:09:25,239 Speaker 4: in some sense of where we project that going. I 138 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:26,939 Speaker 4: couldn't help but think of this when I think about 139 00:09:27,260 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 4: one of the claims you're working through in your Migrations 140 00:09:30,460 --> 00:09:34,420 Speaker 4: of the Holy, where you talk about what to me 141 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:39,650 Speaker 4: is pretty significant, especially for our conversation, but you say, 142 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,100 Speaker 4: We didn't have to end up in this notion of 143 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,370 Speaker 4: the nation state in the way that we think about it. 144 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,900 Speaker 4: And of course, that is taken for granted. Not only 145 00:09:51,059 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 4: did we have to end up here, it was good 146 00:09:52,660 --> 00:09:54,790 Speaker 4: to end up here. And whatever we project that to 147 00:09:54,850 --> 00:09:57,950 Speaker 4: mean going forward is the best path forward and the 148 00:09:57,990 --> 00:10:03,179 Speaker 4: way that popular consciousness seems to take our development. Why 149 00:10:03,220 --> 00:10:06,780 Speaker 4: is it that you, you would want to push against 150 00:10:06,860 --> 00:10:08,699 Speaker 4: that when, when you make your sort of claim of, 151 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:09,660 Speaker 4: we didn't have to end up here. 152 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:16,189 Speaker 3: It's always a good idea to, to think about different 153 00:10:16,230 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 3: ways that history could have ended up. Um, Because once 154 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 3: we think that the way we do things is inevitable, 155 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 3: then it makes it very hard to change. Then we 156 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,370 Speaker 3: just accept the status quo as if it were our 157 00:10:32,470 --> 00:10:37,630 Speaker 3: fate instead of our destiny. And I think that's always 158 00:10:37,690 --> 00:10:40,330 Speaker 3: a kind of dangerous thing. So it's always good to 159 00:10:40,370 --> 00:10:44,929 Speaker 3: think about alternatives. and to think about different ways that 160 00:10:44,990 --> 00:10:47,699 Speaker 3: we could have gone as a way of thinking about 161 00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 3: different ways that we could do things in the present 162 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:56,140 Speaker 3: and could do things in the future. That's one of 163 00:10:56,179 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 3: the things that is, I think, really embedded in the 164 00:11:01,179 --> 00:11:08,910 Speaker 3: Christian tradition through the Genesis story, right? The fall is 165 00:11:09,010 --> 00:11:15,460 Speaker 3: often misunderstood as pessimistic. Doctrine that it means that things 166 00:11:15,540 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 3: are messed up and there's nothing we can do about 167 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,380 Speaker 3: it But the fall is actually an optimistic doctrine because 168 00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:26,770 Speaker 3: it means that there was an original condition That was 169 00:11:26,890 --> 00:11:30,570 Speaker 3: good that we fell away from And this is as 170 00:11:30,650 --> 00:11:33,050 Speaker 3: opposed to you know, the way the Babylonians told the 171 00:11:33,090 --> 00:11:38,630 Speaker 3: story for example in their creation story they basically say, 172 00:11:38,770 --> 00:11:41,490 Speaker 3: you know things were messed up from the get-go and 173 00:11:42,130 --> 00:11:45,459 Speaker 3: It's the gods are violent, there's a war amongst the gods, 174 00:11:45,580 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 3: and that's how creation happens. And the writers of Genesis 175 00:11:50,620 --> 00:11:52,500 Speaker 3: tell a different kind of story that, no, it was 176 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 3: good to begin with, and then things got messed up. 177 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,099 Speaker 3: And so they're as realistic looking out at the world 178 00:12:00,179 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 3: and seeing the damaged condition that we live in, as 179 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,250 Speaker 3: realistic as the Babylonians. But the way they tell the 180 00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:10,310 Speaker 3: story gives us hope then that because things are not 181 00:12:10,370 --> 00:12:14,250 Speaker 3: just the way they are, always have been, then things 182 00:12:14,330 --> 00:12:17,949 Speaker 3: are not just the way that things have to be either. 183 00:12:18,150 --> 00:12:24,130 Speaker 3: And so all of our eschatology is embedded there in 184 00:12:24,170 --> 00:12:27,790 Speaker 3: the first few chapters of Genesis. The idea that we 185 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:33,100 Speaker 3: have hope that God is good and that creation is good. 186 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,420 Speaker 3: And the final word in the universe is love. And 187 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:42,770 Speaker 3: therefore we can do things differently even though we find 188 00:12:42,830 --> 00:12:45,730 Speaker 3: ourselves in this predicament now. 189 00:12:48,830 --> 00:12:51,370 Speaker 4: So I take one of the significant developments that comes 190 00:12:51,470 --> 00:12:55,030 Speaker 4: out of imagining otherwise, or at least the possibility of otherwise, 191 00:12:55,070 --> 00:12:58,330 Speaker 4: is that it gives us the potential to say maybe 192 00:12:58,370 --> 00:13:02,930 Speaker 4: that there are better choices, especially the church can make 193 00:13:02,990 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 4: when it thinks about engaging publicly. Is that a fair 194 00:13:07,890 --> 00:13:08,410 Speaker 4: takeaway then? 195 00:13:08,429 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 196 00:13:14,770 --> 00:13:18,910 Speaker 4: Do you mind going into some of what, you know, 197 00:13:19,010 --> 00:13:21,689 Speaker 4: in a perfect situation where the church sits down and says, 198 00:13:21,770 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 4: teach us, Dr. Kavanaugh, what are some of those takeaways 199 00:13:25,250 --> 00:13:27,740 Speaker 4: that you'd like to see the church imagine? 200 00:13:30,460 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 2: Well, let me ask it this way, because again, I 201 00:13:34,020 --> 00:13:36,580 Speaker 2: mentioned like Torture and Eucharist is probably my favorite book 202 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:43,340 Speaker 2: you've written. I just, I'm wondering if, the situation described 203 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 2: in that book under the Pinochet regime and the importance 204 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: that the Eucharist takes on that is even beyond the 205 00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:53,070 Speaker 2: importance that it probably should have had in the church 206 00:13:53,110 --> 00:13:56,469 Speaker 2: in the first place. But I'm wondering if part of 207 00:13:56,530 --> 00:14:02,610 Speaker 2: what the church needs to do is recognize forces that 208 00:14:02,670 --> 00:14:10,650 Speaker 2: require our resistance or forces that require a counterpractice At 209 00:14:10,700 --> 00:14:13,780 Speaker 2: a sensitivity level well beyond what we see under the 210 00:14:13,820 --> 00:14:14,660 Speaker 2: Pinochet regime. 211 00:14:15,780 --> 00:14:19,060 Speaker 1: Right. And so that this starts to sort of. 212 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: Guide our our political imagination and our public life in 213 00:14:23,780 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: ways where we say, no, we're going to we're going 214 00:14:26,940 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: to push against this ethos. that the surrounding culture is 215 00:14:33,860 --> 00:14:37,300 Speaker 2: trying to cultivate us into, we're going to actually resist that. 216 00:14:37,620 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 2: And we're going to do that by being a different 217 00:14:39,580 --> 00:14:43,340 Speaker 2: sort of people with different sort of practices, shaping ourselves 218 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,300 Speaker 2: into a different sort of community, similar to what you, 219 00:14:46,580 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 2: you argue in torture and Eucharist, but at a very, um, 220 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:56,350 Speaker 2: at a different level of extreme activity. So maybe, maybe 221 00:14:56,370 --> 00:14:57,540 Speaker 2: that helps frame this a little bit. 222 00:14:57,550 --> 00:15:02,180 Speaker 3: Yeah. The first thing that I would say is that 223 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,980 Speaker 3: the church should not think of itself as an oppositional 224 00:15:07,980 --> 00:15:15,020 Speaker 3: group genetically. It's not as if we should always be 225 00:15:15,220 --> 00:15:19,790 Speaker 3: opposed to the wider culture. We are not meant to 226 00:15:19,870 --> 00:15:24,170 Speaker 3: be a sect. We're not meant to be a minority. 227 00:15:24,230 --> 00:15:28,420 Speaker 3: There's nothing inherently good about being a minority. But we 228 00:15:28,490 --> 00:15:33,430 Speaker 3: find ourselves often in situations where it is important to resist. 229 00:15:35,950 --> 00:15:39,790 Speaker 3: But there's nothing good about resistance in and of itself 230 00:15:40,410 --> 00:15:44,490 Speaker 3: or about being different or anything like that. But we 231 00:15:44,530 --> 00:15:48,710 Speaker 3: do find ourselves in situations where there are times when 232 00:15:48,750 --> 00:15:51,290 Speaker 3: we have to say no and we're not very good 233 00:15:51,330 --> 00:15:55,050 Speaker 3: at saying no. And one of the things that, one 234 00:15:55,070 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 3: of the reasons for that is because we tend to 235 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 3: think of our national belonging as something which is more 236 00:16:02,860 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 3: important than, even if we wouldn't articulate it that way, 237 00:16:06,860 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 3: we tend to think that it's more important and more 238 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:15,300 Speaker 3: basic than our church affiliation. And so the public thing 239 00:16:15,950 --> 00:16:21,790 Speaker 3: is national belonging and the church, our Our church belonging 240 00:16:21,850 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 3: is something that we do on Sundays, and it's a 241 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 3: private sort of thing. It's the people that we hang 242 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 3: around with and go to Bible study and go golfing 243 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,380 Speaker 3: with and that sort of thing. And reversing that is 244 00:16:37,420 --> 00:16:39,950 Speaker 3: very hard. And that's what happened in Chile in a 245 00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 3: lot of ways is that The idea that the church 246 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:50,030 Speaker 3: would be oppositional to the authorities that were running the 247 00:16:50,070 --> 00:16:57,350 Speaker 3: country was not something that was in the habits of 248 00:16:57,410 --> 00:17:01,610 Speaker 3: the church. And they had to learn that after the 249 00:17:01,630 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 3: military coup in which you've got people being tortured and 250 00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:10,939 Speaker 3: killed and this surveillance state that was imposed upon them. 251 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,619 Speaker 3: And the church did respond. And so this is, I'm 252 00:17:14,820 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 3: talking primarily about the Catholic Church, although Lutherans were also, 253 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:25,110 Speaker 3: the Lutheran Bishop Helmut Frenz was also very courageous in 254 00:17:25,290 --> 00:17:31,710 Speaker 3: Chile as well. But they... But they did very quickly 255 00:17:31,770 --> 00:17:35,850 Speaker 3: kind of pivot. And it's a relatively happy story, as 256 00:17:35,890 --> 00:17:40,010 Speaker 3: it was not in Argentina, where the church tended to 257 00:17:40,170 --> 00:17:44,650 Speaker 3: just go along with the military regime. And human rights 258 00:17:44,690 --> 00:17:51,300 Speaker 3: abuses were horrible in Argentina, much worse than in Chile. 259 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 3: So it's these kind of habits of thinking that we have. 260 00:17:55,060 --> 00:17:59,270 Speaker 3: We don't tend to think about our our primary loyalty, 261 00:17:59,290 --> 00:18:05,470 Speaker 3: you know, for Catholics, this is, this comes to fruition 262 00:18:06,670 --> 00:18:11,100 Speaker 3: in a, not necessarily a good way with the first 263 00:18:11,130 --> 00:18:14,060 Speaker 3: Catholic president, which is John F. Kennedy, you know, so 264 00:18:14,380 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 3: Catholics are, they tend to be, you know, most Catholics 265 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,859 Speaker 3: come in large numbers in the 19th century and, And 266 00:18:22,900 --> 00:18:27,550 Speaker 3: they tend to be suspected, as Muslims are today, as 267 00:18:27,630 --> 00:18:33,990 Speaker 3: being anti-American and undemocratic and, you know, suspicious and, you know, 268 00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:37,489 Speaker 3: obedient to a foreign potentate, the Pope and so on. 269 00:18:38,170 --> 00:18:43,850 Speaker 3: And so there's all this kind of suspicion of Catholics. 270 00:18:43,950 --> 00:18:46,930 Speaker 3: And so then finally, in 1960, we get the first 271 00:18:46,970 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 3: Catholic president is elected. And we celebrate this, but the 272 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,370 Speaker 3: way he got elected is by promising that his Catholicism 273 00:18:53,410 --> 00:18:57,030 Speaker 3: will have nothing to do with how he governs the country. 274 00:18:57,910 --> 00:19:00,750 Speaker 3: So what a victory this is that, you know, now 275 00:19:01,130 --> 00:19:03,690 Speaker 3: we've got our first Catholic president and it's, you know, 276 00:19:03,790 --> 00:19:06,990 Speaker 3: on the basis of this complete disavowal that it means 277 00:19:07,070 --> 00:19:11,550 Speaker 3: that Catholicism won't do anything at all in public. And 278 00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:15,830 Speaker 3: that tends to be the kind of Pyrrhic victory that 279 00:19:15,869 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 3: we have. We're so... you know, interested in gaining power 280 00:19:21,180 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 3: in the state. And we think we're going to do 281 00:19:22,820 --> 00:19:25,430 Speaker 3: good with it. But, you know, it's like Stanley Hauerwas 282 00:19:25,510 --> 00:19:28,250 Speaker 3: used to say that the church went to Washington to 283 00:19:28,290 --> 00:19:32,189 Speaker 3: change Washington and Washington changed the church. Yeah. 284 00:19:32,890 --> 00:19:34,619 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that's what I agree with you. I 285 00:19:34,650 --> 00:19:36,420 Speaker 2: don't think we're meant to be a sect. I think, 286 00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 2: you know, when I think about things like the true, 287 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 2: the good and the beautiful, we should affirm the truth, 288 00:19:41,980 --> 00:19:44,689 Speaker 2: the good and the beautiful wherever we find it. But 289 00:19:44,750 --> 00:19:49,210 Speaker 2: we should also recognize the limits of the sorts of goodness, truth, 290 00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: and beauty that the world has. can actually show us. 291 00:19:53,060 --> 00:19:56,700 Speaker 2: And so there is a sense where we're not trying 292 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 2: to be marginal, but we're trying to be part of 293 00:20:00,500 --> 00:20:04,230 Speaker 2: an integral to the public life. And to do that, 294 00:20:04,550 --> 00:20:08,300 Speaker 2: your work spans things like like torture and Eucharist, but 295 00:20:08,340 --> 00:20:11,810 Speaker 2: also being consumed and the economics of that, the way 296 00:20:11,850 --> 00:20:16,930 Speaker 2: the church needs to rethink its economic practices, the uses 297 00:20:16,970 --> 00:20:19,910 Speaker 2: of idolatry deals with that a good bit. And so 298 00:20:20,109 --> 00:20:23,169 Speaker 2: there's all these things that sort of the world is 299 00:20:23,290 --> 00:20:28,989 Speaker 2: trying to understand how to navigate that the church through tradition, 300 00:20:29,030 --> 00:20:34,379 Speaker 2: through revelation, through various other aspects have insight that the 301 00:20:34,420 --> 00:20:39,670 Speaker 2: world simply doesn't accept. And so that's our point of resistance. 302 00:20:40,010 --> 00:20:42,689 Speaker 2: And so maybe the question is then, how do we 303 00:20:42,770 --> 00:20:48,669 Speaker 2: proactively pursue those unique resources? And how do we reinforce 304 00:20:48,970 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 2: ourselves with those unique resources in ways that will allow 305 00:20:53,140 --> 00:20:57,060 Speaker 2: us to point beyond the good, true, and beautiful that 306 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:58,850 Speaker 2: the world is capable of showing us? 307 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:04,020 Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, exactly. So we have all of the resources 308 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 3: that we need. We have Jesus. in the sacrament and 309 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 3: in the word. And we have the Holy Spirit and 310 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 3: we have God the Father. And so it's a matter 311 00:21:15,619 --> 00:21:22,260 Speaker 3: of being obedient to that calling. And there are lots 312 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:27,429 Speaker 3: of different ways of making that happen. I think one 313 00:21:27,470 --> 00:21:34,250 Speaker 3: of the problems oftentimes when we think about having an 314 00:21:34,430 --> 00:21:38,650 Speaker 3: impact on Christians having an impact in the public sphere, 315 00:21:39,770 --> 00:21:44,370 Speaker 3: we think that we need power to do that. And 316 00:21:44,890 --> 00:21:49,830 Speaker 3: there's different ways of defining what power means. But what 317 00:21:49,890 --> 00:21:52,170 Speaker 3: I mean when I say that is that we think 318 00:21:52,250 --> 00:21:57,990 Speaker 3: we need to have elected officials and judges who are 319 00:21:58,230 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 3: on our side. And that then, it can often become 320 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:07,850 Speaker 3: the The end to which all kinds of means are used. Right. 321 00:22:07,930 --> 00:22:09,629 Speaker 3: And I think we're seeing that in a lot of 322 00:22:09,710 --> 00:22:14,310 Speaker 3: the Christian nationalism that we're seeing now. Right. It doesn't 323 00:22:14,410 --> 00:22:19,649 Speaker 3: matter who is, you know, who is in charge as 324 00:22:19,690 --> 00:22:22,129 Speaker 3: long as they're on our side. It doesn't matter how. 325 00:22:22,810 --> 00:22:25,490 Speaker 3: how they behave and what they do, as long as 326 00:22:25,550 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 3: it means power for Christians. And I think, you know, again, 327 00:22:29,630 --> 00:22:33,340 Speaker 3: this is going to be a Pyrrhic victory. It's, you know, 328 00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 3: the more power we seem to gain, the more people 329 00:22:37,940 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 3: seem to be avoiding the church because they're disgusted by 330 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,820 Speaker 3: that kind of, you know, so people will celebrate having 331 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 3: our champion in office by staying away from the church 332 00:22:50,940 --> 00:22:54,980 Speaker 3: in ever greater numbers. And that's probably the fate that 333 00:22:55,020 --> 00:22:55,620 Speaker 3: we deserve. 334 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,220 Speaker 4: One of the words that's come up a few times 335 00:23:01,260 --> 00:23:06,270 Speaker 4: already is idolatry. I think of Alistair McFadden, the Scottish 336 00:23:06,310 --> 00:23:10,830 Speaker 4: theologian who talks about he's interacting with questions of sin 337 00:23:11,090 --> 00:23:19,540 Speaker 4: and interacting with ideas in psychology and in the medical world. 338 00:23:19,930 --> 00:23:24,140 Speaker 4: And one of his contentions is that There's a lot 339 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 4: that we gain from understanding issues in psychology, understanding issues 340 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,340 Speaker 4: of disease, things like that. But we do lose something 341 00:23:31,420 --> 00:23:34,660 Speaker 4: if we don't bring the category of sin into the conversation. 342 00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 4: And that's a case that he makes. What do we 343 00:23:39,350 --> 00:23:44,310 Speaker 4: lose if we are afraid to actually trade on the 344 00:23:44,350 --> 00:23:48,869 Speaker 4: language of idolatry and what that means in this conversation? 345 00:23:48,890 --> 00:23:53,570 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, interesting. I mean, there are good reasons to 346 00:23:53,670 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 3: avoid the language of idolatry, because it is associated with 347 00:24:02,180 --> 00:24:09,570 Speaker 3: a certain kind of chauvinism. It's associated with violence in 348 00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:14,900 Speaker 3: the Bible, in colonial history. And I think what you 349 00:24:14,940 --> 00:24:19,550 Speaker 3: find in the Catholic world and maybe the Christian world 350 00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:25,090 Speaker 3: more generally is, you know, around the era of decolonization 351 00:24:25,210 --> 00:24:31,150 Speaker 3: in the 1960s, you get away from using the terms 352 00:24:31,250 --> 00:24:34,990 Speaker 3: idolatry because that's, you know, I just read through David 353 00:24:35,050 --> 00:24:38,900 Speaker 3: Livingston's account of his travels in Africa in the 19th 354 00:24:38,940 --> 00:24:43,170 Speaker 3: century and he's full of, you know, disparaging the locals 355 00:24:43,250 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 3: and their idolatry and their superstition. And so there's good 356 00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:52,659 Speaker 3: reasons to avoid the language of idolatry. But ultimately, I 357 00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:55,140 Speaker 3: just don't think you can avoid it. And it needs 358 00:24:55,200 --> 00:25:00,470 Speaker 3: to be recovered for very good reasons, because what we're 359 00:25:00,530 --> 00:25:06,810 Speaker 3: really faced with is not just, you know, people doing 360 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 3: bad things, but it's not just sin, but it's a 361 00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:16,409 Speaker 3: false kind of worship. And that sort of language is 362 00:25:16,470 --> 00:25:21,369 Speaker 3: really necessary because we need to realize the stakes and 363 00:25:21,410 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 3: the extent to which we create gods and then fall 364 00:25:25,390 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 3: down before them and obey. And so what you find 365 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,609 Speaker 3: already then in the 1970s, You get this group of 366 00:25:34,740 --> 00:25:38,610 Speaker 3: liberation theologians in Latin America who are recovering the language 367 00:25:38,670 --> 00:25:43,350 Speaker 3: of idolatry and saying, you know, for so long the 368 00:25:43,790 --> 00:25:48,169 Speaker 3: enemy has been Marxism and atheism. But what we find 369 00:25:48,190 --> 00:25:51,610 Speaker 3: in the real enemy in Latin America is not atheists, 370 00:25:51,710 --> 00:25:54,310 Speaker 3: because there's not that many of them, but the real 371 00:25:54,390 --> 00:25:57,460 Speaker 3: enemy is people who worship a false god. And they're 372 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:03,660 Speaker 3: talking about specifically the certain kinds of economic problems practices 373 00:26:03,740 --> 00:26:08,649 Speaker 3: that turn capital into this god to which millions of 374 00:26:09,230 --> 00:26:18,449 Speaker 3: lives are sacrificed. And so in the context of post-colonial context, 375 00:26:18,850 --> 00:26:22,609 Speaker 3: you have them recovering the notion of idolatry precisely because 376 00:26:22,670 --> 00:26:28,470 Speaker 3: it really captures the nature of what we're dealing with, 377 00:26:29,170 --> 00:26:33,470 Speaker 3: the idea that you can't, the current economic arrangements can't 378 00:26:33,550 --> 00:26:37,350 Speaker 3: be questioned. We just need to bow down in front 379 00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:42,270 Speaker 3: of the so-called free market and let things go the 380 00:26:42,310 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 3: way they're going because there's nothing we can do about it. 381 00:26:47,619 --> 00:26:51,020 Speaker 3: The market is sovereign and we just need to obey. 382 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,020 Speaker 3: And I think that's really dangerous. So the language of idolatry, 383 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,449 Speaker 3: I think, is really necessary. Pope Francis really used the 384 00:27:00,490 --> 00:27:04,490 Speaker 3: language of idolatry a lot, especially when talking about economics, 385 00:27:05,570 --> 00:27:07,490 Speaker 3: and I think for very good reasons. 386 00:27:10,470 --> 00:27:15,730 Speaker 2: In evangelical politics, I would say economics is fairly. 387 00:27:16,820 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: Undertreated. 388 00:27:19,180 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 2: If we think about it, we only think about it 389 00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 2: in terms of whether my taxes are going to go 390 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 2: up and whether inflation is going to increase and how 391 00:27:27,540 --> 00:27:29,140 Speaker 2: does this work itself out for me. 392 00:27:30,170 --> 00:27:30,930 Speaker 1: And my family. 393 00:27:31,670 --> 00:27:35,550 Speaker 2: Is that different in Catholic circles where there's a deeper 394 00:27:36,550 --> 00:27:41,180 Speaker 2: sort of consumerist tendency, a notion of the greed, which 395 00:27:41,260 --> 00:27:44,659 Speaker 2: is idolatry, and the economic systems and the way that 396 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 2: they can deform us? Or is that also as anemic 397 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,659 Speaker 2: as it might be within evangelical circles? 398 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,500 Speaker 3: Yeah, we don't have any problems in the Catholic Church. 399 00:27:54,540 --> 00:27:55,370 Speaker 3: We're fine. So.... 400 00:27:57,490 --> 00:27:59,689 Speaker 1: Everybody should convert. 401 00:28:02,850 --> 00:28:04,780 Speaker 3: No, I wish I could say that it was different, 402 00:28:04,910 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 3: but it's not, not much. You know, Catholics are as 403 00:28:09,780 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 3: divided as evangelicals are politically and economically and so on. 404 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 3: We do have this whole tradition of Catholic social thought. 405 00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:25,540 Speaker 3: which is, you know, reflections on kind of bringing the 406 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:30,300 Speaker 3: gospel to bear on economic and political realities. And that's 407 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 3: been a tradition since 1891 is usually considered, you know, 408 00:28:34,980 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 3: Rerum Novarum, Pope Leo XIII's encyclical about, you know, trying 409 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,860 Speaker 3: to counter rampant capitalism on the one hand and rampant 410 00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:47,810 Speaker 3: socialism on the other hand and trying to figure out what, 411 00:28:47,970 --> 00:28:49,890 Speaker 3: what a Christian. So we, we do have that tradition 412 00:28:49,930 --> 00:28:53,870 Speaker 3: and that's, that's, uh, really good. But, um, but I 413 00:28:53,930 --> 00:28:56,970 Speaker 3: don't think that the average Catholic is any better than 414 00:28:57,020 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 3: the average, uh, evangelical and in, uh, in their day-to-day lives. Um, 415 00:29:05,340 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 3: and to me, that's, um, that's a real issue. And 416 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:14,100 Speaker 3: one of the things that I really like, uh, when 417 00:29:14,140 --> 00:29:19,020 Speaker 3: I'm teaching undergraduates, is you can really teach theology through 418 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 3: economics in a lot of ways because it's so hands-on 419 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,390 Speaker 3: and practical, right? So we talk about, you know, ordering 420 00:29:29,510 --> 00:29:35,030 Speaker 3: things from Amazon, for example. You've got this dynamic, look 421 00:29:35,090 --> 00:29:41,550 Speaker 3: at Psalm 115 or Psalm 135, where you've got this 422 00:29:41,790 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 3: notion that you make idols of which are lifeless, but 423 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,330 Speaker 3: you attribute life to them. In the meantime, they're taking 424 00:29:50,420 --> 00:29:54,410 Speaker 3: life away from you. You become as deaf and dumb 425 00:29:54,930 --> 00:29:59,470 Speaker 3: and mute as the idols themselves, according to these Psalms. 426 00:30:00,610 --> 00:30:05,270 Speaker 3: There's a lot of that in the scriptures. And you 427 00:30:05,310 --> 00:30:09,730 Speaker 3: can see the same kind of dynamic in our economy 428 00:30:09,790 --> 00:30:13,990 Speaker 3: where things take on life and life is drained away 429 00:30:14,330 --> 00:30:18,930 Speaker 3: from people. And so you have this kind of thing-centered 430 00:30:19,170 --> 00:30:24,350 Speaker 3: economy where you go online and all you see are things, 431 00:30:25,170 --> 00:30:29,470 Speaker 3: and you click on them, and then they appear magically 432 00:30:29,590 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 3: on your doorstep. And with a smile, right? The Amazon 433 00:30:34,130 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 3: packages with the smile, right? It's this personification, you know, 434 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 3: on the commercials, the little packages, sing and dance and 435 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,980 Speaker 3: so on. and this animation of these things. And the 436 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,460 Speaker 3: people then that are making these things, they might be 437 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:56,950 Speaker 3: 14-year-old Thai girls making 50 cents an hour, the cobalt 438 00:30:57,030 --> 00:31:01,610 Speaker 3: miners in the Democratic Republic of Congo making $ 3 a 439 00:31:01,670 --> 00:31:05,050 Speaker 3: day in these horrible conditions to keep our cell phones 440 00:31:05,590 --> 00:31:09,210 Speaker 3: running and everything. All of that and the environmental degradation 441 00:31:09,970 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 3: and the guy who delivered the product to your door 442 00:31:14,970 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 3: who's got no benefits and is making minimum wage, and 443 00:31:19,420 --> 00:31:22,420 Speaker 3: this is his second job because he's got to try 444 00:31:22,460 --> 00:31:24,740 Speaker 3: to feed his family and all that. All of that 445 00:31:24,940 --> 00:31:30,260 Speaker 3: is just invisible to us by design, right? And so 446 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 3: our whole economy is is based around the centrality of products, 447 00:31:37,460 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 3: what Karl Marx called the commodity fetishism, the making of 448 00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 3: fetishes out of commodities. And at the same time, life 449 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,260 Speaker 3: is drained away from so many people that are caught 450 00:31:50,180 --> 00:31:53,580 Speaker 3: in this kind of economy. And so when you start 451 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:59,990 Speaker 3: really looking at these very concrete day-to-day practices, and really 452 00:32:00,030 --> 00:32:04,180 Speaker 3: start digging into that, then you realize just to what 453 00:32:04,220 --> 00:32:09,420 Speaker 3: an extent there's this idolatrous economy that we're caught in. 454 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,430 Speaker 3: And most of us, and it's designed so that we 455 00:32:12,570 --> 00:32:17,260 Speaker 3: don't think about it, right? And when we do think 456 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 3: about it, then we get these feelings of helplessness. And 457 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,530 Speaker 3: we'd rather just kind of think of this as our fate, right? 458 00:32:26,590 --> 00:32:28,570 Speaker 3: That's just the way it is, and there's nothing to 459 00:32:28,730 --> 00:32:31,150 Speaker 3: do about it, right? You have to order from Amazon 460 00:32:31,310 --> 00:32:34,290 Speaker 3: because it's just there, you know? And it's like, no, 461 00:32:34,310 --> 00:32:36,990 Speaker 3: you don't have to order from Amazon. And there's a 462 00:32:37,010 --> 00:32:40,270 Speaker 3: lot of other different things that you can, economic practices 463 00:32:40,330 --> 00:32:45,790 Speaker 3: that you can undertake that... can contribute to a different kind, 464 00:32:46,010 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 3: different kinds of economies, right? We have a tendency to 465 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 3: think about the economy as if it's just this big 466 00:32:52,420 --> 00:32:56,900 Speaker 3: thing that is, you know, unavoidable. There's nothing we can 467 00:32:56,940 --> 00:33:00,340 Speaker 3: do about it. Nobody's actually running it. Um, but it's 468 00:33:00,420 --> 00:33:03,750 Speaker 3: made up of all of these decisions and there are, there, 469 00:33:03,930 --> 00:33:07,290 Speaker 3: there isn't just one economy. There are economies. There are 470 00:33:07,350 --> 00:33:11,730 Speaker 3: farmers markets that are a different kind of economic space. Um, 471 00:33:12,540 --> 00:33:17,260 Speaker 3: in all kinds of different ways that we can practice. 472 00:33:17,540 --> 00:33:20,290 Speaker 3: What I try to do in my little book, Being Consumed, 473 00:33:22,170 --> 00:33:25,230 Speaker 3: which is just a little 100-page long, but I try 474 00:33:25,250 --> 00:33:28,570 Speaker 3: to kind of point to different sorts of economic practices 475 00:33:28,710 --> 00:33:34,180 Speaker 3: that Christians are undertaking in attempts to kind of make 476 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 3: this kind of economy not inevitable. 477 00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 5: Yeah. 478 00:33:42,100 --> 00:33:46,340 Speaker 4: Some of those examples are pretty powerful in that they 479 00:33:46,380 --> 00:33:53,780 Speaker 4: show how entangled we are in ongoing colonial practices. The 480 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,030 Speaker 4: world being carved up and ordered in the way that 481 00:33:56,050 --> 00:34:01,190 Speaker 4: it is has created a cadence for the world to 482 00:34:02,450 --> 00:34:06,210 Speaker 4: have to play into. That's really how idolatry works. It 483 00:34:06,270 --> 00:34:14,649 Speaker 4: consumes everything around it by forcing all things into this structural, 484 00:34:14,890 --> 00:34:19,739 Speaker 4: as Willie Jennings calls it, enclosure. And yet at the 485 00:34:19,780 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 4: same time, I often feel at a loss, not because 486 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,140 Speaker 4: I could choose to order a book from a publisher 487 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,450 Speaker 4: instead of Amazon, but over the fact that if I 488 00:34:28,610 --> 00:34:33,029 Speaker 4: don't buy the bananas, for instance, how are those underpaid, 489 00:34:33,410 --> 00:34:37,430 Speaker 4: brutalized workers on the Costa Rican banana farms going to 490 00:34:37,489 --> 00:34:39,730 Speaker 4: make money given the way that the order is set up? 491 00:34:39,890 --> 00:34:42,859 Speaker 4: Or if I don't have a cell phone, I might 492 00:34:42,910 --> 00:34:46,730 Speaker 4: be fine, but the people working in the cobalt mines 493 00:34:46,850 --> 00:34:50,950 Speaker 4: in the Congo, um, unfortunately depend upon it where it 494 00:34:50,989 --> 00:34:52,830 Speaker 4: just seems a bit like a, you're damned if you do, 495 00:34:52,850 --> 00:34:56,020 Speaker 4: you're damned if you don't. And we should take these 496 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,859 Speaker 4: things seriously. We should think about them. How do we, 497 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 4: how do we address that sort of rock and a 498 00:35:00,500 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 4: hard place dynamic? 499 00:35:04,260 --> 00:35:07,270 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, the problem is that we've come to 500 00:35:07,330 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 3: think that, um, taking advantage of someone's desperation is a virtue. 501 00:35:13,700 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 3: And that, I think we need to start there, right? 502 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:21,700 Speaker 3: I mean, this is what I talk about in the 503 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 3: first chapter of being consumed, is that a free market 504 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 3: is free, according to Milton Friedman, if a transaction is 505 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:37,700 Speaker 3: voluntary and mutually informed. And so if the Thai girl 506 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,500 Speaker 3: knows that she is getting 50 cents an hour, and 507 00:35:41,540 --> 00:35:47,259 Speaker 3: that's better than starvation, then it's a free transaction. That's 508 00:35:47,300 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 3: the free market, right? And I think the problem is 509 00:35:53,980 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 3: that we've defined freedom in this very narrow way, in 510 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 3: this very self-serving way, rather than a broader sense of 511 00:36:03,700 --> 00:36:07,549 Speaker 3: what freedom means might actually mean, which is a kind 512 00:36:07,810 --> 00:36:10,370 Speaker 3: of more positive sense of freedom. So not just the 513 00:36:10,410 --> 00:36:14,890 Speaker 3: negative lack of interference, but a positive sense of the 514 00:36:15,219 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 3: flourishing of all of the parties involved. And in order 515 00:36:18,860 --> 00:36:20,900 Speaker 3: to do that, you need to start looking at the 516 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:26,739 Speaker 3: power disparities that exist in that kind of economy. And 517 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:33,930 Speaker 3: so the fact that the you know, the Thai girl 518 00:36:33,950 --> 00:36:36,690 Speaker 3: might be happy or the, or the cobalt miner in 519 00:36:37,330 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 3: the democratic Republic of Congo might be, you know, happy 520 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 3: to have a job in $ 3 a day, um, because 521 00:36:46,260 --> 00:36:51,219 Speaker 3: it's better than what the alternative is. Um, that in 522 00:36:51,260 --> 00:36:54,870 Speaker 3: and of itself is, we need to stop thinking that 523 00:36:54,910 --> 00:37:00,310 Speaker 3: that's those parameters that have been set, um, are, uh, 524 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,500 Speaker 3: are inevitable in this way. We need to start asking 525 00:37:05,540 --> 00:37:10,020 Speaker 3: the question of the power dynamics that are involved there. 526 00:37:10,420 --> 00:37:16,739 Speaker 3: Why is the cobalt miner so desperate that he needs 527 00:37:16,780 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 3: to do this horrible work for $ 3 a day? And 528 00:37:21,420 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 3: so that leads you into all of these kind of 529 00:37:24,140 --> 00:37:29,340 Speaker 3: larger questions of how the system got set up in 530 00:37:29,380 --> 00:37:36,450 Speaker 3: the first place. And so it's never simply a matter 531 00:37:36,790 --> 00:37:45,420 Speaker 3: of are they working? Well, therefore, buying something from their 532 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:50,020 Speaker 3: business is good. It's always these much larger questions of 533 00:37:50,180 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 3: how much are they getting paid? How is the environment 534 00:37:53,980 --> 00:37:57,750 Speaker 3: being treated? All these other kind of questions that we 535 00:37:57,770 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 3: would prefer to forget. So, yeah, so I mean, it's, 536 00:38:08,060 --> 00:38:16,310 Speaker 3: I remember something that Desmond Tutu said during the apartheid boycotts, 537 00:38:16,810 --> 00:38:21,569 Speaker 3: when people were boycotting South Africa because of apartheid. And 538 00:38:21,610 --> 00:38:26,509 Speaker 3: the argument was that, well, we can't, you know, the people, 539 00:38:26,660 --> 00:38:29,739 Speaker 3: the South African people will suffer if we don't buy 540 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,660 Speaker 3: their products. And Desmond Tutu said something of the effect of, 541 00:38:34,540 --> 00:38:38,740 Speaker 3: let us decide that, right? I mean, we're already suffering 542 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:47,540 Speaker 3: under this regime. Let us decide what kinds of suffering 543 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 3: we're willing to put up with and what kinds we're not. 544 00:38:51,770 --> 00:38:54,410 Speaker 3: And so he was calling for a boycott, even though 545 00:38:54,530 --> 00:38:57,290 Speaker 3: in the short term, that was going to be bad 546 00:38:57,350 --> 00:39:01,790 Speaker 3: for business and some people might lose their jobs. But 547 00:39:01,830 --> 00:39:05,970 Speaker 3: he was after something much larger than just the perpetuation 548 00:39:06,050 --> 00:39:08,330 Speaker 3: of an unjust status quo. 549 00:39:10,450 --> 00:39:13,450 Speaker 2: It does point us to something, I think, that we 550 00:39:13,489 --> 00:39:16,950 Speaker 2: don't often address in what I'll say our public life 551 00:39:17,070 --> 00:39:19,270 Speaker 2: is or our political life. And what I mean by 552 00:39:19,330 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 2: political life in the United States is You know, sort 553 00:39:22,140 --> 00:39:25,510 Speaker 2: of the Republican and Democratic machinery that is going to 554 00:39:25,620 --> 00:39:32,100 Speaker 2: own offices and, represent us in government. Public life, just 555 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,720 Speaker 2: sort of the way we live, I think that we 556 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:41,339 Speaker 2: don't often think through how stuck we actually are. Or 557 00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:43,779 Speaker 2: if we do think about how stuck we actually are, 558 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,150 Speaker 2: it feels a little bit hopeless to get out of it. 559 00:39:47,300 --> 00:39:49,259 Speaker 2: I can think of ways when I'm just sitting around 560 00:39:49,300 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 2: and go, I don't actually need some of these things 561 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 2: that I buy. 562 00:39:53,980 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 1: And so I can stop buying them. 563 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 2: But then there's a whole other apparatus where it's like, well, 564 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,390 Speaker 2: where else am I supposed to get that if I 565 00:40:01,510 --> 00:40:07,250 Speaker 2: actually need it? It creates sort of this interesting tension 566 00:40:07,290 --> 00:40:10,890 Speaker 2: because we can't escape it totally. And that may just 567 00:40:10,910 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 2: be life in the world. But then we could also 568 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 2: think through ways of working against it, even as we're 569 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 2: using it. I think that's probably the way I have 570 00:40:23,300 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 2: tended to approach some of this. It's like, I can't 571 00:40:26,460 --> 00:40:28,940 Speaker 2: really escape this. You know, I'm not, I'm not going 572 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 2: to be great living in a tent, um, out in 573 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,930 Speaker 2: the woods somewhere. Like I have to buy a house. 574 00:40:34,030 --> 00:40:36,630 Speaker 2: I have to buy into, you know, centralized banking. I 575 00:40:36,670 --> 00:40:39,070 Speaker 2: have to buy into mortgages. Like, you know, some of 576 00:40:39,110 --> 00:40:43,529 Speaker 2: that just feels like I have to, um, But at 577 00:40:43,550 --> 00:40:45,509 Speaker 2: the same time, you can sit back and say, but 578 00:40:45,550 --> 00:40:48,090 Speaker 2: I don't know that these policies need to continue. I 579 00:40:48,469 --> 00:40:50,730 Speaker 2: don't know that the next generation really needs to do 580 00:40:50,780 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 2: it in the exact same way we've done it. And 581 00:40:53,140 --> 00:40:56,340 Speaker 2: there might be reform here. What do you think of 582 00:40:56,380 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 2: that kind of an approach to these things that feel, 583 00:40:58,940 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 2: as I think Ashish is. 584 00:41:01,900 --> 00:41:05,230 Speaker 1: Saying, like they just feel like you get structured into it? 585 00:41:06,489 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 3: Right, and you do. I mean, I am not, I 586 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,700 Speaker 3: can't claim any kind of, you know, purity on these 587 00:41:14,739 --> 00:41:18,140 Speaker 3: kinds of matters. But I do think that we need 588 00:41:18,260 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 3: to stop thinking that the alternatives are either the status 589 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:27,009 Speaker 3: quo or living in a treehouse. All kinds of stuff. 590 00:41:28,090 --> 00:41:33,950 Speaker 3: you know, that can, can happen. Right. And so I've 591 00:41:33,989 --> 00:41:37,890 Speaker 3: got a house and I've got a mortgage and I've 592 00:41:37,910 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 3: got a car. Right. And so, so what can you 593 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 3: do with that? Well, we put solar panels on our house. Right. 594 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 3: And so we produce more electricity than we use. We've 595 00:41:50,540 --> 00:41:54,820 Speaker 3: got one car and I get to work on public transportation, 596 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,850 Speaker 3: you know, and so we, bought a house in a 597 00:41:57,870 --> 00:42:02,460 Speaker 3: place where that's accessible to public, uh, transportation. Who do 598 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 3: we get our mortgage from? We got our mortgage from 599 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:12,819 Speaker 3: the local community bank rather than one of the, the big, uh, conglomerates, right. Um, uh, 600 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,739 Speaker 3: where's your, uh, retirement funds? Well, some of it is 601 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,509 Speaker 3: with the self-help credit union, you. 602 00:42:20,430 --> 00:42:24,590 Speaker 1: Know, um, all the different really helpful that. 603 00:42:24,469 --> 00:42:29,930 Speaker 3: You can do. Um, And and so I really want 604 00:42:29,950 --> 00:42:33,930 Speaker 3: to push back against the idea that there's nothing, you know, 605 00:42:33,989 --> 00:42:36,620 Speaker 3: that we're trapped and there's nothing we can do because 606 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:41,060 Speaker 3: there's all kinds of things that we can do. And 607 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 3: there's more that that needs to to be done. And 608 00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 3: it needs to be done at all sorts of levels, 609 00:42:46,700 --> 00:42:52,320 Speaker 3: not just the the. personal levels of trying to shop 610 00:42:52,390 --> 00:42:55,569 Speaker 3: local and go into the farmer's market and that sort 611 00:42:55,610 --> 00:43:00,990 Speaker 3: of thing. But all the way up to the political level, 612 00:43:01,030 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 3: there's so much more. I mean, there's so much more 613 00:43:05,140 --> 00:43:07,760 Speaker 3: that could at least be done to stop making it worse. 614 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,319 Speaker 1: I mean, the. 615 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:15,689 Speaker 3: Current policies are you know, climate change is great. Let's 616 00:43:16,010 --> 00:43:19,310 Speaker 3: burn more fossil fuels, you know, and I mean, at 617 00:43:19,350 --> 00:43:22,850 Speaker 3: the very least, you could, you know, dial back on 618 00:43:22,910 --> 00:43:26,980 Speaker 3: that rather than, you know, putting, you know, as in 619 00:43:27,020 --> 00:43:30,700 Speaker 3: the first Trump administration, when the head of the Environmental 620 00:43:30,739 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 3: Protection Agency was a coal industry lobbyist, for God's sake, 621 00:43:36,030 --> 00:43:38,350 Speaker 3: can we just get back to a little bit of sanity, 622 00:43:38,410 --> 00:43:40,610 Speaker 3: you know, so there's, there's all kinds of things. But 623 00:43:40,650 --> 00:43:46,840 Speaker 3: then there's also kind of You know, businesses that if 624 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,339 Speaker 3: people could think creatively about the kinds of businesses that 625 00:43:50,380 --> 00:43:54,239 Speaker 3: we need and start them. You know, there's a corporation 626 00:43:54,510 --> 00:43:59,050 Speaker 3: in Spain, the Mondragon Corporation, that was founded by a 627 00:43:59,130 --> 00:44:03,109 Speaker 3: Basque priest in the 1950s. And they have over $ 3 628 00:44:03,010 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 3: billion of sales every year. But it's all worker-owned and worker-run. 629 00:44:11,410 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 3: And so the highest paid person can only make eight 630 00:44:15,219 --> 00:44:19,260 Speaker 3: times more than the lowest paid person in the corporation. 631 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 3: The typical CEO to worker ratio in most large Forbes 632 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:32,010 Speaker 3: 500 companies is like 400 to 1%. Instead of eight 633 00:44:32,030 --> 00:44:35,569 Speaker 3: to one, but it's a cooperative in the sense that 634 00:44:35,989 --> 00:44:40,779 Speaker 3: the workers have an input into any decisions that the 635 00:44:41,300 --> 00:44:46,239 Speaker 3: management makes and the workers own the corporation, you know, 636 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:52,660 Speaker 3: so it's eliminated the tension between shareholders and workers. That's 637 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,219 Speaker 3: the basic tension at the root of so much of 638 00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:01,090 Speaker 3: this is the difference between capital and labor, right? People 639 00:45:01,130 --> 00:45:04,250 Speaker 3: with money want other people to work for them and 640 00:45:04,290 --> 00:45:08,910 Speaker 3: make them more money. And so there's this antagonism between 641 00:45:08,989 --> 00:45:11,790 Speaker 3: the owners of capital and people who have nothing but 642 00:45:11,830 --> 00:45:16,339 Speaker 3: their labor to sell. And if the workers were also 643 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,259 Speaker 3: the owners, then the world would be a very different place. 644 00:45:21,219 --> 00:45:24,480 Speaker 3: And so it's thinking in these, I mean, this is 645 00:45:24,540 --> 00:45:30,969 Speaker 3: a multi-billion dollar company and It can be replicated elsewhere, 646 00:45:31,030 --> 00:45:34,930 Speaker 3: I'm sure, and it has been replicated elsewhere. But if 647 00:45:34,969 --> 00:45:42,320 Speaker 3: we start thinking in terms of worker ownership, the idea 648 00:45:42,380 --> 00:45:46,319 Speaker 3: that the main purpose of a corporation is not just 649 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,339 Speaker 3: to make money for the shareholders, but it's to make 650 00:45:49,410 --> 00:45:51,930 Speaker 3: the world a better place, then there's so many different 651 00:45:51,969 --> 00:45:53,109 Speaker 3: ways that that can be done. 652 00:45:53,130 --> 00:45:55,810 Speaker 1: Yeah, very helpful. 653 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 654 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:00,980 Speaker 4: Is there a way you think that we can be 655 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:06,350 Speaker 4: actively exercising our agency to put pressure on corporations to 656 00:46:06,390 --> 00:46:09,770 Speaker 4: think that way, local governments to think that way, rather 657 00:46:09,810 --> 00:46:13,790 Speaker 4: than to be thinking, you know, the lobbyist wants this 658 00:46:13,830 --> 00:46:15,240 Speaker 4: and they give me the money. Go for it. 659 00:46:16,390 --> 00:46:16,589 Speaker 5: Yeah. 660 00:46:17,110 --> 00:46:20,190 Speaker 3: Yeah. There's lots of different ways. I mean, you can boycott. 661 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,900 Speaker 3: I don't buy anything from Amazon, for example. You don't 662 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:33,299 Speaker 3: have to, right? There's other ways of getting things. You 663 00:46:33,340 --> 00:46:45,270 Speaker 3: can support labor unions. You can put your retirement accounts 664 00:46:45,630 --> 00:46:50,430 Speaker 3: in sustainable funds as opposed to unsustainable funds. I mean, 665 00:46:50,469 --> 00:46:55,040 Speaker 3: I Those things have their limits too, but it's better 666 00:46:55,140 --> 00:46:58,880 Speaker 3: than nothing. You can put your money in credit unions 667 00:46:58,980 --> 00:47:04,990 Speaker 3: instead of the large banks. You can do shareholder activism. 668 00:47:06,510 --> 00:47:10,630 Speaker 3: You can write letters. You can organize at the local level. 669 00:47:10,690 --> 00:47:14,710 Speaker 3: You can organize at the national level, get involved in politics. 670 00:47:15,170 --> 00:47:17,670 Speaker 3: You can get involved in business. There's all kinds of 671 00:47:18,270 --> 00:47:20,650 Speaker 3: different ways of going about it. You can give your 672 00:47:20,690 --> 00:47:26,370 Speaker 3: money away. Some of it. Because there's all kinds of 673 00:47:27,469 --> 00:47:35,220 Speaker 3: great people doing great things with charitable works. My church 674 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 3: here in Oak Park through the hard work of some 675 00:47:42,620 --> 00:47:48,580 Speaker 3: great lay people When in 2022, the governor of Texas 676 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,540 Speaker 3: just started busing migrants up to Chicago and dumping them 677 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,540 Speaker 3: on the streets. Some people got together and said, well, 678 00:47:55,580 --> 00:47:57,799 Speaker 3: what are we going to do? And so we now 679 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,799 Speaker 3: have a flourishing migrant ministry. We've taken over an old 680 00:48:01,890 --> 00:48:10,130 Speaker 3: school building. We provide clothing and food and legal help, 681 00:48:10,310 --> 00:48:15,140 Speaker 3: sometimes medical help. uh, accompaniment, spiritual accompaniment, all, all kinds 682 00:48:15,180 --> 00:48:19,589 Speaker 3: of things that, you know, over 500 volunteers have been involved, uh, 683 00:48:19,850 --> 00:48:24,549 Speaker 3: at one point or another. Um, there's, there's all kinds of, uh, 684 00:48:24,890 --> 00:48:26,969 Speaker 3: things that can be done. And those are the things 685 00:48:27,010 --> 00:48:29,200 Speaker 3: that give you hope. Yeah. 686 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:32,220 Speaker 1: Yeah. It's almost like. 687 00:48:33,620 --> 00:48:36,160 Speaker 2: When you think about just even that, that piece with 688 00:48:36,180 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 2: the church at the end, you know, caring for the 689 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,970 Speaker 2: immigrants that are being dropped off, um, There is something 690 00:48:42,050 --> 00:48:48,890 Speaker 2: about the church's theology, about the church's commitments and convictions 691 00:48:49,450 --> 00:48:52,489 Speaker 2: that allow us to do this or should allow us 692 00:48:52,550 --> 00:48:54,430 Speaker 2: maybe to do this, should lead us to do this 693 00:48:54,890 --> 00:48:58,930 Speaker 2: better than other groups. It's not that other groups don't 694 00:48:58,989 --> 00:49:01,840 Speaker 2: do good things. They can't be involved in humanitarian action. 695 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,580 Speaker 2: But it just feels like as Christians, we should be 696 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,480 Speaker 2: almost proactively looking for these kind of opportunities. and trying 697 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,880 Speaker 2: to understand how to plug into these various aspects. 698 00:49:15,790 --> 00:49:18,350 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of people who are 699 00:49:18,410 --> 00:49:21,420 Speaker 3: not Christians that have have come and helped out at 700 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:26,620 Speaker 3: this ministry, but I do think there is something that 701 00:49:27,020 --> 00:49:30,460 Speaker 3: motivates it and animates it and was there from the beginning. 702 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,140 Speaker 3: And that's Matthew 25. This is the idea that if 703 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,270 Speaker 3: you're looking for Jesus now, where do you find them? Well, you, 704 00:49:38,700 --> 00:49:41,700 Speaker 3: according to Jesus, you find them in those who are 705 00:49:42,620 --> 00:49:47,830 Speaker 3: hungry and thirsty and strangers and in prison and sick 706 00:49:47,930 --> 00:49:53,009 Speaker 3: and so on. Yeah. That's, you know, that's what Jesus said. 707 00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:55,969 Speaker 3: You know, if you're looking for me, here's where to 708 00:49:56,010 --> 00:50:00,049 Speaker 3: find me. Yeah. And so, so you go out and 709 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,440 Speaker 3: do that. And if you treat people as if they 710 00:50:02,460 --> 00:50:04,500 Speaker 3: were Jesus, it makes a difference. 711 00:50:05,910 --> 00:50:08,270 Speaker 2: And you mentioned Stanley Hauerwas earlier, I think in his 712 00:50:08,469 --> 00:50:12,239 Speaker 2: Brazos commentary on Matthew, when he talks about the poor, 713 00:50:12,469 --> 00:50:16,040 Speaker 2: he makes the statement, Jesus is the poor. And so 714 00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,439 Speaker 2: you have this notion where when you're interacting with the poor, 715 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:21,759 Speaker 2: when you're interacting with the marginal and the downtrodden, you 716 00:50:21,940 --> 00:50:23,900 Speaker 2: are in some sense interacting with Jesus. 717 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,650 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's not Stanley Hauerwas. That's Jesus. 718 00:50:32,790 --> 00:50:36,260 Speaker 1: It's slightly different levels, but yes, I get, Good. 719 00:50:36,140 --> 00:50:38,270 Speaker 4: For Howard Walsh to notice, but yeah, Jesus said it. 720 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:43,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. 721 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 2: Well, we're kind of closing in on the end here. 722 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,180 Speaker 2: I guess sort of my final question is, you know, 723 00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,799 Speaker 2: as Christians approach this sort of midterm election that we're 724 00:50:53,820 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 2: coming up on, what sort of framing would you encourage 725 00:50:57,140 --> 00:50:59,990 Speaker 2: them to take as they're evaluating candidates, as they're thinking 726 00:51:00,050 --> 00:51:05,390 Speaker 2: about this as one relatively small, though not unimportant act? 727 00:51:06,780 --> 00:51:07,820 Speaker 1: Right. 728 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,950 Speaker 2: In sort of moving toward the type of community that 729 00:51:10,969 --> 00:51:11,670 Speaker 2: you've described. 730 00:51:13,830 --> 00:51:18,350 Speaker 3: Yeah, Lord. I mean, I'm not sure I can answer 731 00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:20,750 Speaker 3: that question without sounding partisan. 732 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:23,540 Speaker 4: Go for it. 733 00:51:24,620 --> 00:51:29,140 Speaker 3: It just seems like things have gotten so crazy that 734 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,700 Speaker 3: just looking for a little bit of sanity and a 735 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:38,919 Speaker 3: little bit of decency, a little bit of honesty. that's 736 00:51:38,980 --> 00:51:42,779 Speaker 3: a really important thing. I mean, I think Christians need 737 00:51:42,820 --> 00:51:45,420 Speaker 3: to stop thinking in terms of who's. 738 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:55,049 Speaker 5: Going to benefit us, who's going to make sure that 739 00:51:55,090 --> 00:52:00,910 Speaker 5: Christians have power, and they need to start thinking the 740 00:52:00,989 --> 00:52:02,790 Speaker 5: opposite way. 741 00:52:02,850 --> 00:52:07,190 Speaker 3: That wasn't what Jesus was talking about. Jesus was saying, no, 742 00:52:07,910 --> 00:52:11,010 Speaker 3: don't go looking for the people in power. Go looking 743 00:52:11,070 --> 00:52:13,489 Speaker 3: for the hungry and the thirsty and those who are 744 00:52:13,730 --> 00:52:19,210 Speaker 3: strangers and welcome them. Who's welcoming the strangers and who's 745 00:52:20,030 --> 00:52:23,130 Speaker 3: killing them and putting them in cages and so on? 746 00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:32,549 Speaker 3: Who's demonizing them and scapegoating them? Yeah, those are the 747 00:52:32,590 --> 00:52:34,950 Speaker 3: kind of questions that I think we ought to be asking. 748 00:52:35,790 --> 00:52:40,950 Speaker 2: Yeah, so reframing toward not how can government serve us 749 00:52:41,930 --> 00:52:45,989 Speaker 2: as Christians, but how can government serve those who are 750 00:52:46,510 --> 00:52:50,300 Speaker 2: currently marginal in our society, who are currently downtrodden, who 751 00:52:50,340 --> 00:52:54,140 Speaker 2: are currently, you know, very Lucan themes here, right? So 752 00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,520 Speaker 2: to those people who are on the sides of society 753 00:52:56,540 --> 00:53:00,020 Speaker 2: who are very vulnerable, how can our government help them 754 00:53:00,580 --> 00:53:02,899 Speaker 2: and who in our government is going to help them 755 00:53:03,540 --> 00:53:03,960 Speaker 2: would be okay. 756 00:53:05,950 --> 00:53:07,730 Speaker 4: Sounds a bit like JFK Redux. 757 00:53:10,890 --> 00:53:14,030 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, it is, right? It's different. The parties 758 00:53:14,050 --> 00:53:18,980 Speaker 3: have changed, but it's this idea that the really important 759 00:53:19,060 --> 00:53:23,980 Speaker 3: thing is we've got to get recognized by the people 760 00:53:24,060 --> 00:53:28,430 Speaker 3: in power, and what we need is political power, and 761 00:53:28,469 --> 00:53:31,330 Speaker 3: then we're going to change things for the better. And 762 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:39,200 Speaker 3: it almost inevitably backfires, right? I mean, the more, you know, 763 00:53:39,219 --> 00:53:42,960 Speaker 3: the people that are studying secularization over the last few 764 00:53:43,020 --> 00:53:46,910 Speaker 3: decades since the 1990s, one of the big factors is 765 00:53:48,850 --> 00:53:53,270 Speaker 3: people have gotten turned off by the church being politicized 766 00:53:53,350 --> 00:53:57,170 Speaker 3: in that narrow sense, right? Of the church trying to 767 00:53:57,330 --> 00:53:59,910 Speaker 3: gain political power. And so the more we try to 768 00:53:59,950 --> 00:54:04,860 Speaker 3: gain political power, the more people stay away from the church. 769 00:54:04,940 --> 00:54:07,859 Speaker 3: So I think there's a sense of panic amongst some 770 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:14,770 Speaker 3: Christians that we've lost social status, and the country is becoming, 771 00:54:14,790 --> 00:54:16,629 Speaker 3: it used to be a Christian country, and now it's 772 00:54:16,650 --> 00:54:19,930 Speaker 3: becoming dechristianized, and so we have to do something about this. 773 00:54:20,530 --> 00:54:23,210 Speaker 3: And that means getting the right judges and the right 774 00:54:23,930 --> 00:54:30,310 Speaker 3: people in government to And it almost inevitably backfires. I 775 00:54:30,850 --> 00:54:35,739 Speaker 3: was in Hungary a couple of years ago, and this 776 00:54:35,820 --> 00:54:40,700 Speaker 3: is after, I think, I can't remember how long was 777 00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,600 Speaker 3: Orban in power. He had been in power at the 778 00:54:43,660 --> 00:54:47,419 Speaker 3: time for more than a decade and had really put 779 00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:52,690 Speaker 3: all of the resources of the government behind reviving the 780 00:54:52,730 --> 00:54:58,850 Speaker 3: Christian church's and had written Christianity into the constitution. And 781 00:54:58,890 --> 00:55:02,640 Speaker 3: he was the champion of Christians. And I got there 782 00:55:02,700 --> 00:55:07,400 Speaker 3: the week after the first survey revealed that for the 783 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:14,430 Speaker 3: first time in a millennium, fewer than 50% of Hungarians 784 00:55:14,530 --> 00:55:17,690 Speaker 3: identified as Christians. You know, I think one of them 785 00:55:17,730 --> 00:55:23,819 Speaker 3: had just gotten disgusted with, with Orban and that, kind 786 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,779 Speaker 3: of attempt to gain power and decided they just weren't 787 00:55:26,820 --> 00:55:33,120 Speaker 3: Christians anymore. And that, I think, is almost inevitable. I mean, 788 00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,200 Speaker 3: if people look at the church and see, you know, 789 00:55:37,219 --> 00:55:43,040 Speaker 3: the kind of dishonesty and mendacity and power and cruelty 790 00:55:44,380 --> 00:55:48,390 Speaker 3: that we're seeing now, they're going to stay away from 791 00:55:48,410 --> 00:55:51,090 Speaker 3: the churches and for good reason. But if they saw 792 00:55:51,670 --> 00:55:55,200 Speaker 3: that we were taking care of the marginalized and reaching 793 00:55:55,260 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 3: out beyond ourselves and doing what Jesus told us to do, 794 00:55:59,340 --> 00:56:04,890 Speaker 3: then I think there might be hope to be attractive 795 00:56:05,489 --> 00:56:08,630 Speaker 3: rather than repulsive, for the church to be something attractive 796 00:56:08,750 --> 00:56:09,870 Speaker 3: rather than repulsive. 797 00:56:11,890 --> 00:56:14,260 Speaker 1: I know I said last question last time, but I lied. 798 00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:14,420 Speaker 3: So.... 799 00:56:16,710 --> 00:56:20,509 Speaker 2: Do you see that as rooting back into the theopolitical imagination? 800 00:56:20,810 --> 00:56:22,890 Speaker 2: It seems to me that part of what's happening is 801 00:56:23,310 --> 00:56:25,850 Speaker 2: when the church joins with the political party, we're really 802 00:56:25,910 --> 00:56:30,520 Speaker 2: surrendering a theopolitical imagination that is uniquely Christian. And we're 803 00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:35,560 Speaker 2: adopting one that is idolatrous, that is worshiping something else. 804 00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:40,560 Speaker 2: And so now we're giving other people reason to reject 805 00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:44,700 Speaker 2: Christ on criteria other than the gospel. And we're giving 806 00:56:44,739 --> 00:56:48,370 Speaker 2: them reason to reject Christ on reason of partisan politics. 807 00:56:49,210 --> 00:56:52,149 Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, that's exactly right. They see the God that 808 00:56:52,190 --> 00:56:56,020 Speaker 3: we worship in reality and they don't like the looks 809 00:56:56,060 --> 00:56:56,700 Speaker 3: of that God. 810 00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:57,780 Speaker 1: Yeah. 811 00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:02,719 Speaker 3: Because they see that we're not worshiping Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. 812 00:57:03,020 --> 00:57:05,640 Speaker 4: I'm going to throw in my last two sentences as well, 813 00:57:05,660 --> 00:57:06,219 Speaker 4: if that's all right. 814 00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:08,000 Speaker 1: I'll go for it. 815 00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,040 Speaker 4: So I've tried to tell students over the years, just 816 00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,810 Speaker 4: try to get them to think through just how many 817 00:57:15,850 --> 00:57:22,400 Speaker 4: of these intense policy-directed political leanings and decisions that they 818 00:57:22,700 --> 00:57:25,200 Speaker 4: have leaned heavily into, or their parents have leaned heavily into, 819 00:57:25,260 --> 00:57:29,780 Speaker 4: or their communities have leaned heavy into, how many of 820 00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:34,010 Speaker 4: these have actually resulted in changing people's minds about what 821 00:57:34,030 --> 00:57:37,010 Speaker 4: they think of the good, the true, the beautiful, never 822 00:57:37,070 --> 00:57:43,700 Speaker 4: mind Jesus himself? And the answer seems inevitably to be zero, right? 823 00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:44,360 Speaker 3: No remainder. 824 00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,260 Speaker 4: But then when you throw in the added irony of 825 00:57:48,540 --> 00:57:52,400 Speaker 4: statistics show that over the last 15 years, even conservative 826 00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:56,800 Speaker 4: churches have bled significantly, right? Because for a long time, 827 00:57:56,860 --> 00:57:59,910 Speaker 4: the narrative was, well, liberal churches are bleeding, conservative churches 828 00:57:59,950 --> 00:58:04,110 Speaker 4: are staying true, and we maintain. But the numbers bled 829 00:58:04,150 --> 00:58:10,940 Speaker 4: are just remarkable. So it really seems that the more rabid, 830 00:58:10,980 --> 00:58:14,000 Speaker 4: more vitriolic stances that have just increased over the last 831 00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:20,460 Speaker 4: decade and change have actually had the counterintuitive effect. And 832 00:58:20,500 --> 00:58:22,500 Speaker 4: at a certain point, I think the church does need 833 00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:26,120 Speaker 4: to wake up and say, let's get back to the 834 00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:31,479 Speaker 4: sorts of things that Jesus himself, say, identify followers of him, right? 835 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:34,360 Speaker 4: Taking care of the poor, taking care of the migrant, 836 00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,840 Speaker 4: taking care of the widow, taking care of those who've 837 00:58:37,860 --> 00:58:43,090 Speaker 4: been socially outcast for racial reasons, for gendered reasons, for 838 00:58:43,110 --> 00:58:43,530 Speaker 4: what have you. 839 00:58:44,340 --> 00:58:49,010 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, amen to that. And it's not just a 840 00:58:49,050 --> 00:58:52,690 Speaker 3: kind of strategy to gain more people in the pews, 841 00:58:52,770 --> 00:58:55,350 Speaker 3: but it's just the right thing to do. It's just 842 00:58:55,390 --> 00:59:00,590 Speaker 3: the truth, and it's what brings us joy, right? The 843 00:59:00,630 --> 00:59:03,730 Speaker 3: Christian life is not some terrible burden that's been put 844 00:59:03,810 --> 00:59:08,390 Speaker 3: upon us. It's a joy to live that to live 845 00:59:08,430 --> 00:59:10,770 Speaker 3: that life, to try to live that life. You know, 846 00:59:10,830 --> 00:59:16,960 Speaker 3: Jesus says that when we encounter people who are hungry 847 00:59:17,020 --> 00:59:19,760 Speaker 3: and thirsty and so on, we encounter Jesus, and that's 848 00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,620 Speaker 3: a joyful thing, right? And so I think rather than 849 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:25,640 Speaker 3: thinking about all of these things as some kind of 850 00:59:27,010 --> 00:59:29,170 Speaker 3: list of tasks that we need to do and some 851 00:59:29,210 --> 00:59:32,730 Speaker 3: kind of burden that's been laid upon us, it's really, 852 00:59:34,030 --> 00:59:37,900 Speaker 3: you know, Jesus says, yoke is easy and his burden 853 00:59:37,980 --> 00:59:42,140 Speaker 3: is light. Yeah. Indeed. 854 00:59:42,380 --> 00:59:42,900 Speaker 1: Very good. 855 00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,240 Speaker 2: Well, It's been a joy having you on. We've been 856 00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,370 Speaker 2: excited since you agreed to be on the episode. So 857 00:59:49,390 --> 00:59:52,210 Speaker 2: thank you for being on. Like I've read a ton 858 00:59:52,230 --> 00:59:56,690 Speaker 2: of your books, really formative during my MDiv and MA years. 859 00:59:56,870 --> 00:59:59,230 Speaker 2: And so very much appreciative of you and your work 860 00:59:59,930 --> 01:00:01,230 Speaker 2: and glad to have you on. 861 01:00:01,270 --> 01:00:01,770 Speaker 1: So thank you. 862 01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,920 Speaker 3: It's been a real pleasure. Thank you, James. And thank you, Ashish. 863 01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:08,020 Speaker 1: All right, everybody. 864 01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:10,100 Speaker 2: Well, we're going to close it up there. Thanks, everybody, 865 01:00:10,140 --> 01:00:11,660 Speaker 2: for being here. And we'll catch you on the next 866 01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:12,780 Speaker 2: episode of Thinking Christian. 867 01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:13,240 Speaker 1: Take care.