1 00:00:00,310 --> 00:00:03,990 Speaker 1: Dr. Gavin Orlin, you're one of the leading Protestant apologists today, 2 00:00:04,130 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: and you're also a professor at Talbot's new campus in Phoenix, 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:08,940 Speaker 1: which is super cool. I want to know why you 4 00:00:08,970 --> 00:00:11,979 Speaker 1: are Protestant and why you're not Catholic. I'm going to 5 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: ask you about eight issues, kind of the key dividing 6 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,620 Speaker 1: issues that typically separate Catholics and Protestants, and we'll explain 7 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,220 Speaker 1: where you think we differ and why you're Protestants. 8 00:00:22,300 --> 00:00:25,340 Speaker 2: And some of the differences between Roman Catholics and Protestants 9 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:27,750 Speaker 2: have to do with terminology, and they go back to 10 00:00:27,890 --> 00:00:30,470 Speaker 2: tensions that are even within the New Testament. And so 11 00:00:30,610 --> 00:00:33,370 Speaker 2: it's good to try to be charitable here to say, 12 00:00:33,590 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 2: where can misunderstanding exacerbate the disagreements? 13 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:39,659 Speaker 1: You ready to rock and roll? 14 00:00:39,700 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 3: Sounds good. All right. 15 00:00:40,740 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: So two questions before we jump in, just to frame this, 16 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,730 Speaker 1: the goal of this is not like we win, you're wrong. 17 00:00:46,150 --> 00:00:48,350 Speaker 1: I get asked about this a ton and I've wanted 18 00:00:48,370 --> 00:00:51,050 Speaker 1: to have a video that just clarifies, and this is 19 00:00:51,270 --> 00:00:53,410 Speaker 1: not as much my lane as it is yours. So 20 00:00:53,450 --> 00:00:56,029 Speaker 1: you're here on campus. I thought this is perfect, but 21 00:00:56,090 --> 00:00:59,030 Speaker 1: what's at stake with this question? 22 00:00:59,050 --> 00:01:03,010 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it is a, a, a lot that 23 00:01:03,130 --> 00:01:06,030 Speaker 2: is at stake and, and, The way I often will 24 00:01:06,230 --> 00:01:08,670 Speaker 2: frame it for people, especially people who've maybe grown up 25 00:01:08,690 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: their whole lives in a Protestant context, and so they're 26 00:01:11,730 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 2: used to the, you know, maybe they go to a 27 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,580 Speaker 2: Methodist church and there's a Presbyterian church across town, and 28 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,060 Speaker 2: they have great fellowship, but they have some disagreements. The 29 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,330 Speaker 2: difference between Catholics, Roman Catholics and Protestants is more significant 30 00:01:26,410 --> 00:01:30,809 Speaker 2: than that, than these intra-Protestant differences. Because the Presbyterian and 31 00:01:30,830 --> 00:01:34,270 Speaker 2: the Methodist both see each other as valid churches with 32 00:01:34,310 --> 00:01:35,709 Speaker 2: potentially valid sacraments. 33 00:01:36,830 --> 00:01:40,670 Speaker 3: They see each as a part of the broader church. 34 00:01:41,450 --> 00:01:44,590 Speaker 2: But in the Roman Catholic to Protestant divide, there is 35 00:01:44,630 --> 00:01:47,330 Speaker 2: the claim from our Roman Catholic friends that they are 36 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,980 Speaker 2: the one true church. And that therefore Protestants typically don't 37 00:01:51,020 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: have a valid Eucharist or Lord's Supper. And so that's 38 00:01:54,660 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: just one example of where the stakes are higher in this. 39 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,450 Speaker 2: And I think that's fair to just recognize that. I 40 00:01:59,470 --> 00:02:02,590 Speaker 2: think we can all admit when we're working through these issues, 41 00:02:02,770 --> 00:02:07,740 Speaker 2: they do matter. They affect profoundly what you even believe. 42 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,540 Speaker 2: I'm pretty ecumenical in my heart. I have a lot 43 00:02:10,580 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 2: of great friendships outside of Protestantism. I think I've shared 44 00:02:14,660 --> 00:02:16,540 Speaker 2: with you, I never really got into these things just 45 00:02:16,580 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 2: because I felt like it. I was just trying to 46 00:02:18,700 --> 00:02:21,730 Speaker 2: answer questions. Just like you get questions, I'm trying to 47 00:02:21,770 --> 00:02:24,910 Speaker 2: help pastor people. But at the same time, I think 48 00:02:24,930 --> 00:02:27,870 Speaker 2: it's also okay to just recognize that we have a 49 00:02:27,950 --> 00:02:33,889 Speaker 2: different body of doctrines that we ultimately think comprise what 50 00:02:33,950 --> 00:02:38,510 Speaker 2: Christianity is. So our Roman Catholic friends have certain beliefs 51 00:02:38,570 --> 00:02:41,510 Speaker 2: that they think are obligatory. Some of them we'll talk about, 52 00:02:41,570 --> 00:02:44,590 Speaker 2: like about Mary, for example, that as a Protestant, I 53 00:02:44,630 --> 00:02:47,130 Speaker 2: just don't think those things are true. And yet they, 54 00:02:47,330 --> 00:02:49,309 Speaker 2: for the other side, it is a part of what 55 00:02:49,370 --> 00:02:53,010 Speaker 2: they see as obligatory Christian belief. And so that's a 56 00:02:53,060 --> 00:02:56,260 Speaker 2: way of saying we've got profound overlap and agreement on 57 00:02:56,300 --> 00:02:59,230 Speaker 2: some issues. But I think it's important not to downplay 58 00:02:59,550 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 2: the real disagreements that do come up and that affect 59 00:03:02,340 --> 00:03:04,180 Speaker 2: what it even means to be a Christian, what is 60 00:03:04,220 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 2: it that you believe, and so forth. 61 00:03:05,900 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: Love that. We're going to get into Mary, purgatory, praying 62 00:03:08,500 --> 00:03:12,300 Speaker 1: to the saints, authority, justification, Lord's Supper. All of them, 63 00:03:12,340 --> 00:03:14,460 Speaker 1: we're going to get into that. But one more question 64 00:03:14,500 --> 00:03:17,060 Speaker 1: before we get to the eight reasons why you're Protestant. 65 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,750 Speaker 1: I'd love to know what issues you think Catholics uniquely 66 00:03:20,810 --> 00:03:24,190 Speaker 1: get right. And Protestants should learn from. Because for me, 67 00:03:24,230 --> 00:03:28,110 Speaker 1: and we've talked about this, I think the Catholic theology 68 00:03:28,190 --> 00:03:32,049 Speaker 1: of the body is far more consistent and robust. And 69 00:03:32,090 --> 00:03:34,389 Speaker 1: some of the particulars we can debate, that's not the point. 70 00:03:34,930 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: But as a whole, I think many Protestants and Evangelicals 71 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,540 Speaker 1: are very Gnostic in their approach to sexuality. And it's 72 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,900 Speaker 1: left us open to certain kinds of critiques in our 73 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: cultural moment. And I'm like, the Catholics are doing this right. 74 00:03:48,580 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: We need to learn from them. That's one example for me. Yeah. 75 00:03:51,100 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: For you, what's one or two examples you're like, I 76 00:03:53,060 --> 00:03:53,980 Speaker 1: think they're getting this right? 77 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:55,260 Speaker 3: There's a lot. 78 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:56,420 Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much. 79 00:03:56,460 --> 00:03:58,779 Speaker 2: And the way I approach these conversations is I try 80 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,020 Speaker 2: to be really candid about where my convictions are and 81 00:04:02,060 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: why I think these things matter so much. But I 82 00:04:04,980 --> 00:04:08,310 Speaker 2: also try to learn from the other side wherever we can, 83 00:04:08,650 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: and we definitely can. The issue you just mentioned is 84 00:04:13,580 --> 00:04:15,530 Speaker 2: usually the first one I mention as well. 85 00:04:15,690 --> 00:04:17,260 Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. 86 00:04:17,290 --> 00:04:18,010 Speaker 3: So this would be an. 87 00:04:17,970 --> 00:04:20,930 Speaker 2: Area where the way we could put it is most 88 00:04:21,350 --> 00:04:26,150 Speaker 2: conservative evangelicals are going to be against transgenderism, but they 89 00:04:26,210 --> 00:04:29,110 Speaker 2: may not be able to give you a coherent reason why. 90 00:04:30,110 --> 00:04:33,589 Speaker 2: And I think learning from some top Catholic theologians is 91 00:04:33,650 --> 00:04:35,870 Speaker 2: a way you're going to develop a. 92 00:04:35,970 --> 00:04:38,730 Speaker 3: Lot in your thinking about that. And there's other examples. 93 00:04:38,790 --> 00:04:43,310 Speaker 2: I mean, Certainly the sense of reverence in worship, love 94 00:04:43,350 --> 00:04:46,180 Speaker 2: for church history, a sense of continuity with the past, 95 00:04:46,540 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 2: I completely understand why people who sometimes grow up in 96 00:04:49,740 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: an evangelical context that doesn't have the reverence in the 97 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,500 Speaker 2: contemporary worship experience, doesn't have a sense of connection to 98 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:02,130 Speaker 2: the past or respect for church history, and they look 99 00:05:02,230 --> 00:05:05,390 Speaker 2: over to how those things are present in a Roman 100 00:05:05,410 --> 00:05:09,690 Speaker 2: Catholic setting, I completely understand the draw toward that. 101 00:05:10,180 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 3: Part of my message, too, is let's look at all 102 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 3: of Protestantism. 103 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,679 Speaker 2: And within Protestantism, you do find those things instantiated as well. 104 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:20,779 Speaker 3: It's just not as, I would say we're more patchy 105 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 3: on those things. 106 00:05:21,660 --> 00:05:23,860 Speaker 1: Fair enough. That makes sense. Okay, so let's get into 107 00:05:23,900 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: these eight issues. And again, the goal is just maybe 108 00:05:25,860 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: clarify where the differences are and then just tell us 109 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,500 Speaker 1: why you're Protestant. Now, each one of these, obviously, we're 110 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,659 Speaker 1: not doing a deep dive. I'm sure you have videos 111 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: we can point towards where you discuss each of these 112 00:05:36,020 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: in depth. But let's start, since we're Protestants, let's start 113 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: with Scripture. 114 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,180 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, and there's, like you say, I mean, we 115 00:05:46,220 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 2: could do hours on each of these, right? But maybe 116 00:05:48,500 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: to canvas some of the things that come up. One 117 00:05:51,100 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 2: of the things that will come up will be just 118 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,410 Speaker 2: what is Scripture? And by that I mean which books 119 00:05:56,510 --> 00:06:00,230 Speaker 2: are in the canon. And just to lay this out, 120 00:06:00,270 --> 00:06:04,050 Speaker 2: if someone's not familiar, Protestants have a shorter Old Testament canon. 121 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,419 Speaker 2: And we thankfully agree on the New Testament, but the 122 00:06:09,620 --> 00:06:12,700 Speaker 2: Old Testament of our Roman Catholic friends is longer, and 123 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,620 Speaker 2: it includes what are sometimes called the Deuterocanonical books. 124 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 3: And this is a complicated issue. 125 00:06:18,940 --> 00:06:22,540 Speaker 2: I mean, it gets so nuanced going down to each 126 00:06:22,620 --> 00:06:27,060 Speaker 2: particular book. You get into this and you realize, okay, 127 00:06:27,180 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 2: so in the early church, a lot of these Eastern 128 00:06:31,020 --> 00:06:35,730 Speaker 2: canon lists among great... Christian leaders in the East like 129 00:06:35,970 --> 00:06:42,610 Speaker 2: Cyril of Jerusalem and Athanasius and Gregory of Nyssa and 130 00:06:42,630 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: all the way up to John of Damascus they also 131 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,740 Speaker 2: have a shorter canon but they include the book Baruch 132 00:06:49,060 --> 00:06:52,340 Speaker 2: within Jeremiah and then Letter of Jeremiah and there's a 133 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 2: few other minor differences as well so it's not identical 134 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 2: to a Protestant canon but it's pretty similar because all 135 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,930 Speaker 2: the other Deuterocanonicals are excluded and then you get little 136 00:07:00,970 --> 00:07:05,580 Speaker 2: wrinkles like Athanasius doesn't include Esther Esther has kind of 137 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: an interesting reception history. So leaving room for all of 138 00:07:09,820 --> 00:07:13,900 Speaker 2: those wrinkles, the big picture I would say is there's 139 00:07:13,940 --> 00:07:16,870 Speaker 2: a good case that can be made that Jesus and 140 00:07:16,910 --> 00:07:20,290 Speaker 2: the apostles used the shorter Old Testament. 141 00:07:19,850 --> 00:07:23,830 Speaker 3: Canon, as we call it. It is not, you know, 142 00:07:23,910 --> 00:07:27,650 Speaker 3: just this slam dunk, ironclad, obvious thing. But I think 143 00:07:27,690 --> 00:07:28,630 Speaker 3: a good case can be made. 144 00:07:28,770 --> 00:07:32,700 Speaker 2: Part of that will be the early historical testimonies in 145 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,540 Speaker 2: the history of the church. So I did a whole 146 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,170 Speaker 2: video just on Melito of Sardis. He's probably late 2nd century. 147 00:07:38,590 --> 00:07:40,510 Speaker 2: And he gives us a canon list. And it's a 148 00:07:40,590 --> 00:07:44,730 Speaker 2: shorter canon list. Again, there are some little wrinkles. But 149 00:07:44,850 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 2: it's much closer to the Protestant one. And you look 150 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 2: at enough examples like that early on. And then you 151 00:07:51,660 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 2: get to who may be the most authoritative figure on this. 152 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,369 Speaker 3: And that's Jerome. And Jerome, of course, is the great 153 00:07:58,590 --> 00:08:00,350 Speaker 3: force that leads. 154 00:08:00,350 --> 00:08:02,930 Speaker 2: Many of us to think the shorter canon is more 155 00:08:03,010 --> 00:08:06,980 Speaker 2: plausibly apostolic. And then the last point I'll make on 156 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: this is it is absolutely not the case that that 157 00:08:10,980 --> 00:08:15,100 Speaker 2: was finalized and settled before the Reformation and the Protestants 158 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: took these books out. It was continuing to be disputed 159 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: throughout the medieval era. And there's a lot of examples 160 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 2: of that from heavy-hitting Roman Catholic theologians in those decades 161 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,540 Speaker 2: leading up to the Council of Trent who are still 162 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,119 Speaker 2: advocating for the shorter canon. 163 00:08:32,630 --> 00:08:34,890 Speaker 3: Oh man, I could go longer, but maybe that's... Yeah, 164 00:08:35,530 --> 00:08:37,730 Speaker 3: make one more point. One last thing that. 165 00:08:37,610 --> 00:08:41,270 Speaker 2: Is a wrinkle is even with the canon lists, you'll 166 00:08:41,290 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 2: then find the same church father citing the deuterocanonical books 167 00:08:45,660 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 2: as scripture. So the key point here, I just say 168 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 2: this because it comes up, it confuses people over and over. 169 00:08:52,490 --> 00:08:54,910 Speaker 3: There's different meanings of the word scripture. 170 00:08:55,250 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 2: And some of these church fathers thought of the Deuterocanonicals 171 00:08:59,380 --> 00:09:01,660 Speaker 2: as kind of second tier scripture. 172 00:09:02,020 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 3: So they use the term scripture for it, but they don't. 173 00:09:05,340 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 2: Include it in their canon list. And that's just a 174 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,060 Speaker 2: point that creates so much confusion. I'm just alerting people 175 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 2: to that. I've talked about that more too. 176 00:09:11,900 --> 00:09:17,109 Speaker 1: Eastern Orthodox Catholic lists include all of the Protestant books, 177 00:09:17,750 --> 00:09:20,130 Speaker 1: but they have books that we don't include. Is that 178 00:09:20,190 --> 00:09:20,790 Speaker 1: fair as a whole? 179 00:09:21,260 --> 00:09:23,860 Speaker 3: Yes, that is fair. And then they'll be a little different. 180 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 2: And some of the other churches, like the Oriental Orthodox Church, 181 00:09:26,780 --> 00:09:29,500 Speaker 2: has different canon lists and so forth. The biggest one, 182 00:09:29,540 --> 00:09:32,740 Speaker 2: I think, is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church has 81 books 183 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:40,410 Speaker 2: in the whole canon. But yes, the Protestant canon is 184 00:09:40,470 --> 00:09:42,770 Speaker 2: the one that basically all those books are pretty much 185 00:09:42,809 --> 00:09:43,310 Speaker 2: agreed upon. 186 00:09:43,610 --> 00:09:43,890 Speaker 3: Got it. 187 00:09:43,929 --> 00:09:47,050 Speaker 1: Fair enough. Okay, so let's shift to the topic of authority. 188 00:09:47,150 --> 00:09:51,060 Speaker 1: And in some ways, that takes Scripture... as Protestants, we 189 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: would believe in soul scripture. And I had a wonderful 190 00:09:53,380 --> 00:09:56,020 Speaker 1: interview with Michael Kruger and made his case for this. 191 00:09:56,610 --> 00:09:58,350 Speaker 1: We don't have to go into that, but maybe talk 192 00:09:58,370 --> 00:10:02,020 Speaker 1: about how we differ on authority, whether that's the role 193 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: of the Pope, church history, scripture itself, and then why 194 00:10:06,059 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: you would take a Protestant view. 195 00:10:07,780 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 196 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,300 Speaker 2: One point I always try to make out of the 197 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,260 Speaker 2: gate here is that it's not the case that Protestants 198 00:10:16,010 --> 00:10:18,890 Speaker 2: have to think the Bible is the only authority in 199 00:10:18,950 --> 00:10:19,310 Speaker 2: any sense. 200 00:10:19,570 --> 00:10:19,710 Speaker 3: Good. 201 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 2: And over and over, this just comes up. And we 202 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 2: hear this caricature. And we Protestants have probably fueled that 203 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:26,939 Speaker 2: sometimes in how we've acted. 204 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:27,420 Speaker 3: That's fair. 205 00:10:27,980 --> 00:10:31,819 Speaker 2: But to give myself as an example, if I were 206 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,750 Speaker 2: to deny the doctrine of the Trinity, I would be 207 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 2: barred from the Lord's Supper at my church because that's 208 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:39,670 Speaker 2: in our statement of faith that we have to adhere to. 209 00:10:40,250 --> 00:10:43,910 Speaker 2: And I would also lose my ministerial credentials. My ordination 210 00:10:43,970 --> 00:10:46,750 Speaker 2: vows included the doctrine of the Trinity. That's just an 211 00:10:46,809 --> 00:10:51,370 Speaker 2: example of where And that's very common historic Protestant practice 212 00:10:51,429 --> 00:10:53,870 Speaker 2: to have confessional standards that. 213 00:10:53,770 --> 00:10:54,630 Speaker 3: You must adhere to. 214 00:10:55,710 --> 00:10:58,189 Speaker 2: Even a lot of non-denominational churches have a statement of 215 00:10:58,270 --> 00:11:00,890 Speaker 2: faith that must be adhered to and it functions as 216 00:11:00,950 --> 00:11:04,569 Speaker 2: a doctrinal boundary. The difference is we don't think that 217 00:11:04,610 --> 00:11:07,689 Speaker 2: is at the same level as Scripture. We think that 218 00:11:07,790 --> 00:11:12,460 Speaker 2: is fallible, meaning capable of error, and therefore it is reformable, 219 00:11:12,929 --> 00:11:14,860 Speaker 2: meaning revisable in light of Scripture. 220 00:11:15,460 --> 00:11:18,340 Speaker 3: And so our doctrinal standards... Basically. 221 00:11:18,540 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 2: We could say everything that comes after the apostolic age, 222 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,650 Speaker 2: Protestants want to keep that subordinate under scripture. And the 223 00:11:26,690 --> 00:11:31,270 Speaker 2: rationale for that is very simple. Scripture is God's word. 224 00:11:32,250 --> 00:11:35,330 Speaker 2: And our friends in other traditions agree with this, that 225 00:11:35,670 --> 00:11:38,530 Speaker 2: an ecumenical council is not divine speech in. 226 00:11:38,490 --> 00:11:39,630 Speaker 3: The way that scripture is. 227 00:11:40,490 --> 00:11:43,870 Speaker 2: An ex-cathedra statement from a pope is not divine speech 228 00:11:44,350 --> 00:11:46,870 Speaker 2: in the way that scripture is. And so what we 229 00:11:46,929 --> 00:11:52,130 Speaker 2: are saying is, let's keep infallibility with the divine speech. 230 00:11:52,890 --> 00:11:57,270 Speaker 2: Let's allow only that which is actually the words of 231 00:11:57,370 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 2: God to have that supreme status of irreformable and infallible. 232 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: Meaning it's not going to be changed and it is 233 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:10,339 Speaker 2: incapable of error. I just think that's such a reasonable view. 234 00:12:10,740 --> 00:12:13,270 Speaker 1: That's the point that Kruger really argued. He goes, sola 235 00:12:13,309 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: doesn't mean only. It means the primary authority. So church 236 00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: history matters deeply. Tradition matters deeply. Creeds matter deeply. But 237 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,420 Speaker 1: when it's all said and done, they're all subordinate to Scripture. 238 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 3: Why? 239 00:12:28,740 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: Because Scripture teaches, and we would say it goes back 240 00:12:31,210 --> 00:12:34,630 Speaker 1: to the Apostle Paul and Jesus. Scripture can't be broken, 241 00:12:34,750 --> 00:12:40,710 Speaker 1: Jesus talked about. Scripture is God-breathed. It's prophetic, Peter talks about. 242 00:12:40,790 --> 00:12:43,550 Speaker 1: So it's the primary authority when it's all said and done. 243 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,870 Speaker 1: as opposed to anything else. What would a Protestant position 244 00:12:48,910 --> 00:12:51,830 Speaker 1: be on the Pope in terms of authority? Why would 245 00:12:51,870 --> 00:12:54,690 Speaker 1: you differ with that position? 246 00:12:55,470 --> 00:12:57,450 Speaker 2: My basic view, and this would be pretty similar to 247 00:12:57,490 --> 00:13:00,250 Speaker 2: most Protestants, I think, is that this is an office 248 00:13:00,290 --> 00:13:04,110 Speaker 2: that develops throughout church history. And so I look back 249 00:13:04,170 --> 00:13:07,420 Speaker 2: at some of the early popes, like Leo or Pope 250 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 2: Gregory the Great, and think a lot of these are 251 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:12,180 Speaker 2: incredible Christian leaders. 252 00:13:13,250 --> 00:13:16,150 Speaker 3: Gregory's book, The Book of Pastoral Rule, is a favorite 253 00:13:16,170 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 3: of mine that I've often benefited from. 254 00:13:18,460 --> 00:13:22,420 Speaker 2: But it's an office that is developing in a particular 255 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 2: historical context. And we would argue it doesn't actually go 256 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 2: back to Peter. So in the New Testament, Peter has 257 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,059 Speaker 2: a kind of leadership role among the apostles. But I 258 00:13:33,100 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 2: don't think that there is a Petrine office in the 259 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:37,179 Speaker 2: New Testament. 260 00:13:37,550 --> 00:13:38,890 Speaker 3: I just don't see any evidence for that. 261 00:13:39,950 --> 00:13:43,850 Speaker 2: And in the early centuries of church history, I think 262 00:13:43,890 --> 00:13:46,430 Speaker 2: a good case can be made that it actually takes 263 00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:48,410 Speaker 2: a little bit of time before you even have a 264 00:13:48,550 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 2: singular bishop in the city of Rome, let alone a 265 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,220 Speaker 2: singular bishop who's the pastor over the whole church. And 266 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 2: then the qualities that we associate with the papacy, like 267 00:13:58,580 --> 00:14:02,700 Speaker 2: the ability to speak infallibly under certain conditions, and then 268 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,350 Speaker 2: having a supremacy over the entire church, these are discussed 269 00:14:06,390 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 2: at Vatican I. I would make the case that those 270 00:14:09,620 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 2: slowly develop. They're not there right out of the gate. 271 00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 2: It's not something that Jesus actually instituted, but it's something 272 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,710 Speaker 2: that slowly evolved. And I think the historical evidence for 273 00:14:20,750 --> 00:14:24,740 Speaker 2: that supports that. And so I often use this word 274 00:14:24,820 --> 00:14:29,190 Speaker 2: accretion to refer to a gradual development, a slow buildup. 275 00:14:29,570 --> 00:14:34,730 Speaker 2: And I think full papal supremacy and infallibility is the 276 00:14:34,770 --> 00:14:38,850 Speaker 2: result of an accreted process that is building and building 277 00:14:38,910 --> 00:14:41,870 Speaker 2: and building throughout church history, but doesn't go back to 278 00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:45,270 Speaker 2: divine revelation. That's basically how I think most Protestants would 279 00:14:45,290 --> 00:14:45,830 Speaker 2: think about this. 280 00:14:45,950 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: That's a great summary. Super, super helpful. Okay, so let's 281 00:14:48,620 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: go to the third one. which is justification. What's the 282 00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: difference when it comes to justification, and why would you 283 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:56,100 Speaker 1: take Protestant view? 284 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 3: So there is, again, it's like we're doing a three-minute overview. 285 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: We are. 286 00:15:02,980 --> 00:15:05,500 Speaker 2: You could tap on this and just unload a maze 287 00:15:05,710 --> 00:15:08,130 Speaker 2: of stuff to talk through here. But I think it's 288 00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:11,030 Speaker 2: helpful to give just a brief snapshot. So, I mean, 289 00:15:11,530 --> 00:15:13,770 Speaker 2: there's multiple differences, but one of the big ones will 290 00:15:13,790 --> 00:15:17,190 Speaker 2: just be this idea of sola fide, which means by 291 00:15:17,330 --> 00:15:21,050 Speaker 2: faith alone. And that word sola means alone, but it's 292 00:15:21,150 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 2: in a context here. Just as with sola scriptura, where 293 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 2: it's coming in a context. It doesn't mean by scripture 294 00:15:28,060 --> 00:15:32,180 Speaker 2: alone in every sense. And here, the idea is, the 295 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,780 Speaker 2: key is, we are trying to define the word justification 296 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,470 Speaker 2: as we see it in the Apostle Paul. And some 297 00:15:40,490 --> 00:15:43,650 Speaker 2: of the differences between Roman Catholics and Protestants have to 298 00:15:43,690 --> 00:15:47,010 Speaker 2: do with terminology. And they go back to tensions that 299 00:15:47,050 --> 00:15:49,580 Speaker 2: are even within the New Testament context. where we find 300 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: the word justification used in James and. 301 00:15:52,060 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 3: In Paul a little differently. 302 00:15:54,380 --> 00:15:57,380 Speaker 2: And so it's good to try to be charitable here 303 00:15:57,460 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 2: to say, where can misunderstanding exacerbate the disagreement? 304 00:16:02,500 --> 00:16:03,780 Speaker 3: Now, I don't think that totally. 305 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 2: Takes away the disagreement, but it can prolong things more 306 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 2: than they need. And so we are thinking of justification 307 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,540 Speaker 2: as a legal declaration from God, a forensic reality having 308 00:16:16,590 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 2: to do with our status. So it means God is 309 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,860 Speaker 2: declaring us righteous in his sight. And that is our 310 00:16:22,940 --> 00:16:26,610 Speaker 2: status legally before God. And we come into that status 311 00:16:26,850 --> 00:16:31,390 Speaker 2: just by faith. Where Protestants and Catholics have more overlap 312 00:16:31,410 --> 00:16:34,620 Speaker 2: than is sometimes recognized is we both believe in the 313 00:16:34,670 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 2: necessity of transformation and change and growth after that initial translation. 314 00:16:42,930 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 2: So we're coming into right relationship with God legally. But 315 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:51,340 Speaker 2: then what we call sanctification is not an option. That's 316 00:16:51,380 --> 00:16:55,290 Speaker 2: something that is definitional of being a Christian. And the 317 00:16:55,370 --> 00:16:58,570 Speaker 2: complexity here is our Roman Catholic friends use the word 318 00:16:58,630 --> 00:17:03,020 Speaker 2: justification for both justification and sanctification. 319 00:17:02,540 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 3: In our terms. 320 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,850 Speaker 2: So they refer to that to also include this process 321 00:17:07,930 --> 00:17:12,450 Speaker 2: of transformation. As Augustine, for example, used that term. So 322 00:17:13,690 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 2: the terminology matters there. But there are differences that are 323 00:17:17,780 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 2: pretty foundational here. And one of them will come up 324 00:17:21,060 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 2: with penance, the idea of confession. 325 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 3: How do you get forgiven? 326 00:17:25,060 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 2: How do you basically get back into a state of 327 00:17:27,820 --> 00:17:29,850 Speaker 2: reconciliation with God after you've. 328 00:17:29,740 --> 00:17:30,590 Speaker 3: Committed a mortal sin? 329 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,990 Speaker 2: And is it necessary to confess that to a human 330 00:17:36,130 --> 00:17:39,290 Speaker 2: priest to receive absolution in that circumstance? 331 00:17:39,330 --> 00:17:40,890 Speaker 3: And that would just be one of those questions. 332 00:17:40,609 --> 00:17:45,449 Speaker 2: Where I love my Roman Catholic friends. I learn so 333 00:17:45,470 --> 00:17:47,970 Speaker 2: much from them. And I think many of them are 334 00:17:48,130 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 2: wonderful Christians. But I also think that their theology does 335 00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:55,740 Speaker 2: affect the very gospel message itself. Because the way you 336 00:17:55,820 --> 00:18:00,060 Speaker 2: experience ongoing forgiveness from Christ... is going to be affected 337 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,659 Speaker 2: if you have this idea that certain classes of sin 338 00:18:03,730 --> 00:18:10,610 Speaker 2: require confession to a human priest. To me, it just 339 00:18:10,670 --> 00:18:14,420 Speaker 2: completely pulls away the assurance of salvation that God wants 340 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:14,940 Speaker 2: us to have. 341 00:18:15,740 --> 00:18:19,340 Speaker 1: Fair enough. That's super helpful. Would the difference on this 342 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,479 Speaker 1: one also be scriptural? Would they make their case from scripture? 343 00:18:23,940 --> 00:18:27,030 Speaker 1: Would they point towards church tradition and authority in a 344 00:18:27,070 --> 00:18:30,350 Speaker 1: different way, or is this one more of a scriptural debate? 345 00:18:30,869 --> 00:18:33,070 Speaker 2: I think they appeal to both, and there is a 346 00:18:33,210 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: scriptural debate about John 20, 23, the passage about binding 347 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,340 Speaker 2: and loosing, and the apostles are given this authority for 348 00:18:41,380 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 2: conferring forgiveness, and that is the text that they base 349 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 2: their theology of confession on. And, you know, I have 350 00:18:51,260 --> 00:18:53,869 Speaker 2: a long video about this explaining why I'm not persuaded 351 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:55,910 Speaker 2: of their interpretation. 352 00:18:55,330 --> 00:18:56,130 Speaker 3: Of that passage. 353 00:18:56,210 --> 00:18:58,430 Speaker 1: Fair enough. We can link and encourage people to check 354 00:18:58,450 --> 00:18:58,649 Speaker 1: it out. 355 00:18:58,670 --> 00:18:58,929 Speaker 3: All right. 356 00:18:59,010 --> 00:19:01,470 Speaker 1: Another big kind of dividing line, so to speak, is 357 00:19:01,510 --> 00:19:02,129 Speaker 1: the Lord's Supper. 358 00:19:03,290 --> 00:19:03,850 Speaker 3: Oh, man, huge. 359 00:19:03,910 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 2: And here is where we can be pretty critical of 360 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,700 Speaker 2: Protestants in that we've had so much division from right 361 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:15,340 Speaker 2: out of the gate, 1529, Luther versus Zwingli, two leading reformers, 362 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:21,060 Speaker 2: and the Reformation splits. And today you find a kaleidoscope 363 00:19:21,140 --> 00:19:25,220 Speaker 2: of different views among Protestants. So there isn't the Protestant 364 00:19:25,260 --> 00:19:29,379 Speaker 2: view and the Roman Catholic view. You might think of 365 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:34,369 Speaker 2: a spectrum of the Roman Catholic view and then on 366 00:19:34,410 --> 00:19:39,070 Speaker 2: the specific issue of how are we experiencing Christ. So 367 00:19:39,170 --> 00:19:43,149 Speaker 2: is Christ present in some sense in the bread and 368 00:19:43,170 --> 00:19:47,970 Speaker 2: the wine? Lutheran views are distinct from Reformed views, and 369 00:19:48,030 --> 00:19:49,070 Speaker 2: Reformed views are. 370 00:19:49,010 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 3: Distinct from what are sometimes called Memorialist views. 371 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: So you've got at least four major buckets, three of 372 00:19:56,340 --> 00:20:00,530 Speaker 2: which within Protestantism. But a lot of the concerns about 373 00:20:01,050 --> 00:20:04,030 Speaker 2: the Lord's Supper from Protestants aren't just about how is 374 00:20:04,050 --> 00:20:07,750 Speaker 2: Christ present. They also have to do with the necessity 375 00:20:07,869 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 2: of both bread and wine. So in the 16th century, 376 00:20:11,859 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 2: this was one of their disputes, is the Protestants were saying, 377 00:20:15,420 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: it's not enough to just have the bread. 378 00:20:17,980 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 3: We need bread and wine. 379 00:20:20,820 --> 00:20:24,139 Speaker 2: The necessity of eating and drinking, and not just spectating 380 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,090 Speaker 2: and watching and adoring the consecrated host. 381 00:20:29,070 --> 00:20:31,770 Speaker 3: Oh boy, so many things. 382 00:20:32,750 --> 00:20:35,830 Speaker 2: This is not official theology, but the street-level practice was 383 00:20:35,930 --> 00:20:39,470 Speaker 2: often Very superstitious in the medieval era. You'll get a 384 00:20:39,510 --> 00:20:41,090 Speaker 2: lot of people thinking if you get a little bit 385 00:20:41,109 --> 00:20:43,450 Speaker 2: of the consecrated host and plant it in your garden, you. 386 00:20:43,380 --> 00:20:44,300 Speaker 3: Get better crops this year. 387 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:44,700 Speaker 1: Wow. 388 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:45,940 Speaker 3: This kind of stuff. 389 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: That is interesting. 390 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,100 Speaker 2: That was street level, not official theology, but just one 391 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:51,940 Speaker 2: of the things that is coming up in these disputes. 392 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,010 Speaker 3: In what sense is the Eucharist a sacrifice? 393 00:20:56,710 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 2: Protestants and Catholics can both affirm that, but we mean 394 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,020 Speaker 2: something very different in that. And I have a whole 395 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 2: video just on that issue for people. So there's like 396 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,050 Speaker 2: eight or nine different topics that come up here. But 397 00:21:08,070 --> 00:21:10,230 Speaker 2: I think maybe the deepest one would simply be the 398 00:21:10,250 --> 00:21:13,770 Speaker 2: question of where is a valid Eucharist? Because our Roman 399 00:21:13,790 --> 00:21:16,220 Speaker 2: Catholic friends would say, you and I have never had 400 00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: the Eucharist. And you need apostolic succession for a valid Eucharist. 401 00:21:20,180 --> 00:21:22,179 Speaker 2: And that would be one of the biggest differences and 402 00:21:22,660 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: one of the issues that, again, highlights why these differences 403 00:21:25,140 --> 00:21:27,780 Speaker 2: really do matter. Because it's a big deal if you 404 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 2: think someone doesn't even have the Lord's Supper at all, 405 00:21:31,660 --> 00:21:33,859 Speaker 2: you know, as opposed to differences about what it means. 406 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,500 Speaker 1: So, I don't know, maybe 20 or 25 years ago 407 00:21:36,540 --> 00:21:39,700 Speaker 1: with my wife, her grandma was Catholic. I went to, 408 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,060 Speaker 1: I think it was a midnight mass and took the 409 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,970 Speaker 1: bread and the wine there. And would they say I've 410 00:21:47,050 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: had the Eucharist or because I'm not Catholic, I still 411 00:21:50,650 --> 00:21:52,700 Speaker 1: haven't had it, even though it was in a Catholic church? 412 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 2: That might depend on who you ask. And I suspect 413 00:21:57,300 --> 00:21:58,260 Speaker 2: I'm surprised they let you. 414 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: You know what? I don't even remember what I said. 415 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,580 Speaker 1: This is years ago, and I hadn't really thought through 416 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,060 Speaker 1: some of these issues, but it just occurred to me. 417 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,500 Speaker 1: All right, we can move on. We don't have to 418 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,609 Speaker 1: settle that right now. The fifth one would be baptism. 419 00:22:09,660 --> 00:22:10,710 Speaker 1: Where's the difference there? 420 00:22:11,780 --> 00:22:13,580 Speaker 2: Okay, so this is similar to the Lord's Supper in 421 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 2: that there's a spectrum of different views among Protestants. So 422 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,660 Speaker 2: a Lutheran versus a Baptist. 423 00:22:20,140 --> 00:22:21,660 Speaker 3: Are going to be very different on this. 424 00:22:22,420 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 2: The general difference for most Protestants today will be Roman 425 00:22:27,140 --> 00:22:31,629 Speaker 2: Catholics have a much higher view of baptismal efficacy, meaning 426 00:22:32,030 --> 00:22:35,129 Speaker 2: what does it actually do? And they'll be similar to 427 00:22:35,170 --> 00:22:39,050 Speaker 2: the Lutherans and some Protestants in thinking that baptism is 428 00:22:39,710 --> 00:22:44,370 Speaker 2: actually saves, it actually confers the blessings of salvation upon 429 00:22:44,390 --> 00:22:47,689 Speaker 2: a person. And a lot of Protestants have believed that 430 00:22:47,730 --> 00:22:50,429 Speaker 2: as well. And I've discovered as I've studied this, that 431 00:22:50,470 --> 00:22:53,459 Speaker 2: is actually very complicated. Because when you ask, what does 432 00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:56,300 Speaker 2: that mean? And how does that play out in particular cases? 433 00:22:56,740 --> 00:22:59,500 Speaker 2: You realize there's a couple different shades of nuance for 434 00:22:59,580 --> 00:23:02,620 Speaker 2: what that can mean. And we can all recognize there's 435 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:07,190 Speaker 2: certainly people, it seems like, are saved in some sense 436 00:23:07,290 --> 00:23:12,550 Speaker 2: before they get baptized. Cornelius in the New Testament, for example. 437 00:23:12,570 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 2: And so I've used him as an example for what 438 00:23:14,900 --> 00:23:17,570 Speaker 2: my position is, which is that we can absolutely say 439 00:23:17,950 --> 00:23:22,889 Speaker 2: baptism saves, but it is not baptism as distinct from 440 00:23:22,910 --> 00:23:29,310 Speaker 2: the conversion process that it expresses and summarizes. And the 441 00:23:29,350 --> 00:23:32,790 Speaker 2: metaphor I give is like a coronation service for a monarch, 442 00:23:33,330 --> 00:23:36,730 Speaker 2: where we might say that they became queen or became 443 00:23:36,850 --> 00:23:40,110 Speaker 2: king on such and such a day. But technically, they 444 00:23:40,170 --> 00:23:43,619 Speaker 2: had their royal powers before that moment. But that was 445 00:23:43,650 --> 00:23:48,980 Speaker 2: the official enacting of it. So that's one way some 446 00:23:49,020 --> 00:23:52,540 Speaker 2: Reformed Christians think about this and some others. But basically, 447 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 2: this is going to be very complicated to chart out 448 00:23:54,940 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 2: because it's going to depend on which Protestant view you hold. 449 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,220 Speaker 2: And I would just encourage Protestants to be humble on 450 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,690 Speaker 2: this point, to really listen to our Roman Catholic friends. 451 00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 2: I think we can sometimes... just assume that a really 452 00:24:07,780 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 2: high view of baptismal efficacy is wrong, and we need 453 00:24:11,740 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 2: to wrestle with the fact that that is pretty dominant 454 00:24:14,820 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: throughout church history. 455 00:24:16,140 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 3: Oh, interesting. 456 00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:19,420 Speaker 2: I mean, all the church fathers are speaking like this, 457 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,739 Speaker 2: and the question in my mind is, what does that 458 00:24:21,790 --> 00:24:25,430 Speaker 2: really mean? When we say baptism saves, what does that 459 00:24:25,470 --> 00:24:27,950 Speaker 2: mean for the Corneliuses of the world? And that's where 460 00:24:28,010 --> 00:24:32,629 Speaker 2: I think there's some space to wrestle through that. But 461 00:24:32,670 --> 00:24:36,070 Speaker 2: a high view of baptism is pretty much... it's, it's 462 00:24:36,150 --> 00:24:38,570 Speaker 2: everywhere all throughout church history. And then you see in 463 00:24:38,609 --> 00:24:42,610 Speaker 2: the new Testament, baptism is spoken of with very high language. 464 00:24:43,190 --> 00:24:46,410 Speaker 2: Baptism now saves you in first Peter three 15 or 465 00:24:46,450 --> 00:24:49,650 Speaker 2: not three, three something there, for example. So this, this 466 00:24:49,710 --> 00:24:51,670 Speaker 2: is an area where Protestants need to really make sure 467 00:24:51,710 --> 00:24:57,780 Speaker 2: they're hearing with humility, the forcefulness of this case against us. 468 00:24:57,980 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 2: If we don't hold to like a high Lutheran view 469 00:25:00,700 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 2: or Anglicans, um, Even while I actually think it is 470 00:25:05,140 --> 00:25:08,500 Speaker 2: complicated and sometimes just what I always say is define 471 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 2: what you mean by baptismal regeneration. 472 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,500 Speaker 3: That is not self-explanatory. 473 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,060 Speaker 2: And as soon as you start thinking about particular people 474 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,219 Speaker 2: who they become a Christian on Friday and they get 475 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 2: baptized on Sunday and you say what's their spiritual status 476 00:25:22,820 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 2: on Saturday and that's where I think it makes sense 477 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 2: to see the Cornelius situation as I would say kind 478 00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 2: of paradigmatic. 479 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,580 Speaker 1: Very fair. And of course for Protestants that goes back 480 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,340 Speaker 1: to sola fide, by faith. How does baptism as a 481 00:25:37,380 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: work fit into that? Which would take us down another road. 482 00:25:40,830 --> 00:25:43,550 Speaker 1: Three more of kind of the most interesting questions I 483 00:25:43,590 --> 00:25:46,910 Speaker 1: get asked. And sixth would be purgatory. 484 00:25:48,410 --> 00:25:54,630 Speaker 3: So purgatory is, it's not hell. That's a common misunderstanding. 485 00:25:54,830 --> 00:26:01,750 Speaker 3: Purgatory is a place of punishment and cleansing for imperfectly 486 00:26:01,830 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 3: purified Christians so that in Roman Catholic theology, if you die, 487 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 3: very rarely will you go straight to heaven. 488 00:26:10,460 --> 00:26:13,830 Speaker 2: Usually there will be, and it's changed over time, I think, 489 00:26:14,230 --> 00:26:17,310 Speaker 2: how much emphasis is put on purgatory and the time 490 00:26:17,369 --> 00:26:19,470 Speaker 2: frame that is sort of assumed. 491 00:26:19,150 --> 00:26:20,910 Speaker 3: And typical in the medieval era. 492 00:26:22,450 --> 00:26:24,970 Speaker 2: There was a lot of dread fear of purgatory, I 493 00:26:25,010 --> 00:26:28,899 Speaker 2: think more so than perhaps today. The concern from a 494 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 2: Protestant perspective on this would be, and I have a 495 00:26:31,580 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: long video series charting out the different views among early Christians. 496 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,860 Speaker 3: About what happens. And I make the case that there's 497 00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 3: different views. 498 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:46,239 Speaker 2: Some seem to think, Cyprian is one example, that when 499 00:26:46,260 --> 00:26:48,070 Speaker 2: a Christian dies, they go straight to be with the Lord. 500 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:49,850 Speaker 3: And that's just a general expectation. 501 00:26:50,650 --> 00:26:54,650 Speaker 2: And then others have some kind of process of purification, 502 00:26:55,130 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 2: but it's often very different from purgatory proper. which has 503 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,900 Speaker 2: this punitive element where the temporal debt of sin is 504 00:27:03,940 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: being paid off. And so it is punishment in a sense. 505 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,719 Speaker 2: And that is one area where some concerns will come 506 00:27:11,770 --> 00:27:14,379 Speaker 2: up from Protestants in terms of what is that saying 507 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,250 Speaker 2: about the sufficiency of the work of Christ? And is 508 00:27:17,310 --> 00:27:22,810 Speaker 2: this distinction between temporal punishment and eternal punishment really a 509 00:27:22,910 --> 00:27:28,250 Speaker 2: necessary or natural way to think from the scriptures? Ultimately, 510 00:27:28,310 --> 00:27:30,590 Speaker 2: this one goes back to Scripture because we want to 511 00:27:30,630 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 2: base our beliefs not just on what kind of evolved 512 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 2: throughout church history, but on what God has said. And 513 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,139 Speaker 2: I don't believe that the idea of purgatory is something 514 00:27:41,180 --> 00:27:44,619 Speaker 2: God revealed in Scripture. And my concern with it is, 515 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 2: if that is true, then to some extent this is 516 00:27:48,859 --> 00:27:53,490 Speaker 2: going to reduce our hope and our excitement about going 517 00:27:53,550 --> 00:27:56,790 Speaker 2: to be with the Lord consequent upon our death. And 518 00:27:56,830 --> 00:27:58,750 Speaker 2: the hope I would want to give to Christians is 519 00:27:58,790 --> 00:28:01,369 Speaker 2: what I believe the New Testament offers to us. And 520 00:28:01,390 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 2: that is to die as a Christian, to die in Christ, 521 00:28:07,180 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: is to go and be with Christ. And that what 522 00:28:10,340 --> 00:28:13,609 Speaker 2: the thief on the cross could trust in and could 523 00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:19,230 Speaker 2: look forward to, today, paradise, is what every Christian can 524 00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:21,629 Speaker 2: also look forward to. That's the hope I would want 525 00:28:21,650 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 2: to offer to people that I think is what the 526 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:24,190 Speaker 2: Bible offers. 527 00:28:24,580 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 3: Love it. 528 00:28:24,970 --> 00:28:28,020 Speaker 1: Good stuff. Alright, two more that are important, and I 529 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: get asked both of these a lot. Praying to the saints. 530 00:28:31,740 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've done a longer video on this and 531 00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 2: then a shorter one recently as well. And the argument 532 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,020 Speaker 2: that I make is that this isn't something that we 533 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:46,140 Speaker 2: see modeled in Scripture or taught in Scripture. That insofar 534 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:51,020 Speaker 2: as We have discussion of prayer. It's always unto God. 535 00:28:51,490 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 2: And we just don't see the righteous ancestors of the 536 00:28:56,140 --> 00:29:00,380 Speaker 2: faith being appealed to by the living in Scripture. We 537 00:29:00,420 --> 00:29:04,180 Speaker 2: don't see David praying to Abraham in the New Testament. 538 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 2: And I've also made this case that for 200 years, roughly, 539 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 2: after the apostolic age, so roughly, I believe the date's 540 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,270 Speaker 2: a little flexible, but somewhere in that late 3rd century 541 00:29:16,330 --> 00:29:21,660 Speaker 2: time period, is where you first see unambiguous evidence of 542 00:29:21,820 --> 00:29:24,780 Speaker 2: Christians praying to deceased Christians. 543 00:29:24,980 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 3: Prayers written out in Rome to Peter and Paul, for example. 544 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: Interesting. 545 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,110 Speaker 2: And they start very modestly, and then it grows a lot. 546 00:29:32,190 --> 00:29:34,190 Speaker 2: So by the time you get to the medieval era, 547 00:29:34,670 --> 00:29:37,980 Speaker 2: praying to Mary is is this much more exalted practice 548 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 2: and so my encouragement for Christians on this is that 549 00:29:41,020 --> 00:29:45,060 Speaker 2: again we need to model our spiritual life after what 550 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,110 Speaker 2: God has said because his instruction to us is what's 551 00:29:48,270 --> 00:29:52,990 Speaker 2: ultimately authoritative and what we can have confidence in the 552 00:29:53,030 --> 00:29:57,310 Speaker 2: fact that something comes into being during church history does 553 00:29:57,410 --> 00:30:00,070 Speaker 2: not mean it is correct and even if it comes 554 00:30:00,130 --> 00:30:06,100 Speaker 2: into being and has widespread appreciation. And the history of 555 00:30:06,140 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: the Old Testament people of God should encourage us toward that. 556 00:30:09,460 --> 00:30:11,860 Speaker 2: We are constantly falling off the path and needing to 557 00:30:11,940 --> 00:30:17,850 Speaker 2: go back to the Lord. So I've gotten lots of 558 00:30:17,900 --> 00:30:19,450 Speaker 2: response videos on these things. 559 00:30:20,110 --> 00:30:23,210 Speaker 3: I appreciate them. I watch as much as I can 560 00:30:23,310 --> 00:30:24,930 Speaker 3: of those. I understand. 561 00:30:25,110 --> 00:30:28,450 Speaker 2: Some of them, people do less of the three-hour live 562 00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:30,860 Speaker 2: stream And more of like a one-hour overview would be 563 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:31,340 Speaker 2: a little easier. 564 00:30:31,820 --> 00:30:34,540 Speaker 3: But I'm just not persuaded by the responses. 565 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,380 Speaker 2: It feels like people are trying to go back and 566 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 2: jam it into extra-biblical texts that are very oblique or 567 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 2: biblical passages that don't really constitute any sort of divine 568 00:30:47,460 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 2: authorization for this. So, for example, people will say, when 569 00:30:52,770 --> 00:30:55,969 Speaker 2: someone says, oh, he's calling on Elijah, they'll say, oh, see, 570 00:30:55,990 --> 00:30:58,990 Speaker 2: so people believed in this. I say the fact that 571 00:30:59,130 --> 00:31:03,210 Speaker 2: someone said that doesn't mean God approves of that. What 572 00:31:03,270 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 2: is lacking, in my view, for this practice is any 573 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 2: sort of divine authorization that God actually wants us to 574 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 2: do this, or that we can be confident that persons 575 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:17,250 Speaker 2: in heaven, whether human beings, glorified, or angels, can actually 576 00:31:17,370 --> 00:31:19,690 Speaker 2: hear our particular prayers. 577 00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:20,470 Speaker 3: To them particularly. 578 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,770 Speaker 2: That, you know, for example, a mental address given to 579 00:31:24,810 --> 00:31:27,890 Speaker 2: a particular saint or angel, that they in heaven can 580 00:31:28,010 --> 00:31:30,910 Speaker 2: hear that and hear what I'm saying. In a lot 581 00:31:30,930 --> 00:31:34,130 Speaker 2: of these other traditions, that's the belief. That the saints 582 00:31:34,170 --> 00:31:37,390 Speaker 2: and angels can even hear our mental address to them. 583 00:31:37,850 --> 00:31:41,430 Speaker 2: And I don't think we have divine warrant for knowing 584 00:31:41,470 --> 00:31:42,630 Speaker 2: that that is actually the case. 585 00:31:43,270 --> 00:31:45,990 Speaker 1: It's fascinating for me to hear, as a Protestant, from 586 00:31:46,010 --> 00:31:49,330 Speaker 1: a Protestant, your case is a combination of does Scripture 587 00:31:49,370 --> 00:31:52,330 Speaker 1: teach this? And how and when does it appear in 588 00:31:52,370 --> 00:31:55,310 Speaker 1: church history? Of course, you said just because something appears 589 00:31:55,370 --> 00:31:58,310 Speaker 1: in church history doesn't mean it's true. It also does 590 00:31:58,350 --> 00:32:01,370 Speaker 1: mean that it's false. So we see certain doctrines like 591 00:32:01,570 --> 00:32:05,450 Speaker 1: the Trinity in terms of the clarified doctrine maybe fully 592 00:32:05,490 --> 00:32:08,130 Speaker 1: be codified in the 4th century. But our question is, 593 00:32:08,670 --> 00:32:12,060 Speaker 1: does Scripture teach that? And in the case of the Trinity, 594 00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:14,820 Speaker 1: we'd say that it does. That's really the key, and 595 00:32:14,860 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: that seems to be the argument you're making. 596 00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:19,980 Speaker 2: Yeah, because there's a difference between something being sort of 597 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 2: concluded in the 4th century versus beginning in the 4th century. 598 00:32:23,980 --> 00:32:26,060 Speaker 1: Agreed. Good way to state it. All right, last one, 599 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: and perhaps maybe most divisive, I have no idea, would 600 00:32:29,060 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: be the question of Mary. 601 00:32:31,980 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, so as Protestants, I think we can and should 602 00:32:35,220 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 2: always speak with appreciation for Mary as such a great 603 00:32:38,820 --> 00:32:43,110 Speaker 2: model of faith and such a woman of God. I'll 604 00:32:43,170 --> 00:32:48,810 Speaker 2: always speak respectfully and appreciatively of Mary So a lot 605 00:32:48,830 --> 00:32:53,820 Speaker 2: of Protestants have overreacted, perhaps. So, for example, many Protestants 606 00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 2: get uncomfortable with language of Mary as the mother of 607 00:32:57,420 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 2: God or as the God-bearer, the Theotokos. But historically, Protestants 608 00:33:04,180 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 2: have been totally fine with that. That goes back to 609 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,180 Speaker 2: the Third Ecumenical Council, Council of Ephesus. And it's basically 610 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 2: just a way of speaking about the Incarnation, that Jesus 611 00:33:13,180 --> 00:33:17,959 Speaker 2: is God and Mary bore Jesus, who is God. But 612 00:33:18,860 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 2: for our Roman Catholic friends, in addition to Marian devotion, 613 00:33:23,380 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 2: we have these dogmas, three others, perpetual virginity, immaculate conception, 614 00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:32,220 Speaker 2: meaning she is born free from all sin and from 615 00:33:32,260 --> 00:33:35,740 Speaker 2: the stain of original sin, and then her bodily assumption 616 00:33:35,780 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 2: to heaven. And those would be doctrines I've studied a 617 00:33:39,110 --> 00:33:42,270 Speaker 2: good amount, and I'm just really persuaded that they don't 618 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 2: go back to the first century. In fact, the evidence, 619 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 2: I would say, especially in the second two of those three, 620 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,770 Speaker 2: so the Immaculate Conception and the Bodily Assumption, I'm persuaded 621 00:33:54,850 --> 00:33:59,190 Speaker 2: the evidence strongly suggests that they were not general Christian 622 00:33:59,230 --> 00:34:03,650 Speaker 2: beliefs in the second century, third century, and to some 623 00:34:03,710 --> 00:34:07,270 Speaker 2: extent even going into the fourth. and then they're still 624 00:34:07,310 --> 00:34:09,989 Speaker 2: scattershot for a long time too in terms of opposition 625 00:34:10,250 --> 00:34:11,290 Speaker 2: and different views. 626 00:34:12,090 --> 00:34:13,730 Speaker 3: I've made the case in videos for this. 627 00:34:13,750 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 2: I just think the worry here is these are obligatory 628 00:34:18,380 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 2: doctrines for Roman Catholics. What do you do if you 629 00:34:22,020 --> 00:34:24,580 Speaker 2: don't believe those things are true? And I don't believe 630 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,380 Speaker 2: that they are true. I don't think Mary. 631 00:34:26,219 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 3: Was assumed to heaven. The evidence for that comes hundreds 632 00:34:30,620 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 3: of years later. 633 00:34:31,980 --> 00:34:36,290 Speaker 2: And so without wanting to be, you know, disrespectful in 634 00:34:36,350 --> 00:34:38,250 Speaker 2: any way, I also want to be clear that I 635 00:34:38,310 --> 00:34:41,650 Speaker 2: think this is a concern. If your church is requiring 636 00:34:41,750 --> 00:34:46,810 Speaker 2: adherence to this belief, which was dogmatized in 1950, relatively recently, 637 00:34:47,590 --> 00:34:51,430 Speaker 2: and yet the historical evidence doesn't suggest it actually happened. 638 00:34:52,110 --> 00:34:54,950 Speaker 2: And that would be one of the dilemmas a Protestant 639 00:34:54,969 --> 00:34:58,740 Speaker 2: will feel here is we want our beliefs to be 640 00:34:59,010 --> 00:35:00,379 Speaker 2: rooted in what is actually true. 641 00:35:01,430 --> 00:35:04,710 Speaker 1: Well said. So which of these are Which of these 642 00:35:04,750 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 1: are most consequential? Is there a way to kind of... 643 00:35:07,469 --> 00:35:12,629 Speaker 1: So we talked about Scripture, authority, justification, Lord's Supper, baptism, purgatory, 644 00:35:12,770 --> 00:35:15,430 Speaker 1: praying to the saints, Mary. Are there some that are 645 00:35:15,630 --> 00:35:19,810 Speaker 1: more important than consequential? Sometimes I've had people contact me, 646 00:35:19,850 --> 00:35:22,670 Speaker 1: friends and others, and say, I'm trying to figure out 647 00:35:22,690 --> 00:35:25,569 Speaker 1: if I'm Catholic or Protestant. And I say, narrow it 648 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: down to the big issues first, not the secondary ones. 649 00:35:30,660 --> 00:35:33,580 Speaker 1: And it seems to me big issues would be like justification. 650 00:35:34,310 --> 00:35:36,969 Speaker 1: and authority. Would you agree with that? And do you 651 00:35:36,989 --> 00:35:38,390 Speaker 1: give the same advice? And by the way, if you 652 00:35:38,430 --> 00:35:40,990 Speaker 1: differ with me, completely tell us that you differ. 653 00:35:41,790 --> 00:35:42,670 Speaker 3: No, I think it's good. 654 00:35:42,850 --> 00:35:48,379 Speaker 2: And justification and authority are maybe the two big ones. Justification, 655 00:35:48,430 --> 00:35:50,879 Speaker 2: it's like we can try to come together as much 656 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 2: as we can. And I think there has been progress 657 00:35:53,180 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 2: in the ecumenical dialogues and understanding these differences and making progress. 658 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,660 Speaker 2: But there are differences in that remain, like the formal 659 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:06,100 Speaker 2: cause of justification, that's still on the table. And actually 660 00:36:06,140 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 2: at the street level, the question I always want to 661 00:36:07,940 --> 00:36:10,380 Speaker 2: come back to is, what is a person's understanding of 662 00:36:10,420 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 2: the gospel? And there are many people in all our 663 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,770 Speaker 2: traditions who just never understood or even maybe heard the 664 00:36:17,850 --> 00:36:21,750 Speaker 2: gospel message of who Jesus is and what he did 665 00:36:21,870 --> 00:36:25,469 Speaker 2: and how we appropriate his saving work through faith and 666 00:36:25,510 --> 00:36:28,290 Speaker 2: repentance in our lives. They don't understand that this is 667 00:36:28,390 --> 00:36:31,270 Speaker 2: truly a free gift of God's grace that we simply 668 00:36:31,330 --> 00:36:34,529 Speaker 2: receive by faith, the empty hands of faith. And so 669 00:36:35,310 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 2: in any particular conversation, that is the number one issue 670 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 2: that I'm just asking about. 671 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 3: I don't know what the answer will be, but I 672 00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:43,140 Speaker 3: want to ask the person. 673 00:36:43,540 --> 00:36:45,899 Speaker 2: The other issue that I think is so foundational would 674 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,420 Speaker 2: be authority. It's kind of like the rudder on the 675 00:36:48,460 --> 00:36:53,790 Speaker 2: ship because any of these other things, purgatory, Mary, anything else, 676 00:36:53,870 --> 00:36:56,049 Speaker 2: it's going to come down to, well, How do you 677 00:36:56,090 --> 00:36:59,350 Speaker 2: make the decision about that? And that's where the Protestant 678 00:36:59,410 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 2: emphasis upon Scripture, I think, is going to be determinative 679 00:37:04,340 --> 00:37:06,380 Speaker 2: for how we think about all these other issues. And 680 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,420 Speaker 2: so in some respects, it almost makes more sense to 681 00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 2: start with that issue of authority because everything's going to 682 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 2: flow out of that. 683 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: That makes total sense. Any other issues I should have 684 00:37:15,460 --> 00:37:17,390 Speaker 1: asked you about or any other advice you want to 685 00:37:17,430 --> 00:37:20,090 Speaker 1: give about how we can carry these conversations moving forward, 686 00:37:20,570 --> 00:37:23,029 Speaker 1: young people trying to figure this out, anything I missed? 687 00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:24,290 Speaker 1: that you want to weigh in on? 688 00:37:24,590 --> 00:37:27,410 Speaker 2: I think it's, of course, great to remember our other 689 00:37:27,450 --> 00:37:33,300 Speaker 2: traditions outside of Roman Catholic and Protestant so that people 690 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:38,180 Speaker 2: are aware there are more Christian churches out there. The 691 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,419 Speaker 2: Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East. 692 00:37:42,420 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 2: And then I just love to encourage people to approach 693 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,140 Speaker 2: these conversations with patience, love, and humility, open to learn 694 00:37:49,890 --> 00:37:53,180 Speaker 2: from their friend in a different perspective. but also not 695 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 2: shying away from leaning into one particular identity as God 696 00:37:59,180 --> 00:38:03,049 Speaker 2: shapes your convictions. I think sometimes, sometimes it's almost like 697 00:38:03,090 --> 00:38:05,750 Speaker 2: people have the feeling that being a mere Christian is 698 00:38:05,810 --> 00:38:07,270 Speaker 2: more spiritual or something like that. 699 00:38:07,550 --> 00:38:08,250 Speaker 1: Oh, interesting. 700 00:38:08,330 --> 00:38:09,670 Speaker 3: You know, and I want to encourage people. 701 00:38:09,870 --> 00:38:10,390 Speaker 1: No, no, no. 702 00:38:10,710 --> 00:38:14,469 Speaker 3: You should lean into a particular identity. When C.S. 703 00:38:14,510 --> 00:38:17,790 Speaker 2: Lewis talked about mere Christianity as the hallway, he also 704 00:38:17,830 --> 00:38:20,489 Speaker 2: understood you need to find a room to live in, right? 705 00:38:20,530 --> 00:38:23,670 Speaker 3: And you got to, Go to a local church. 706 00:38:23,469 --> 00:38:26,299 Speaker 2: And submit to that church and receive the sacraments there 707 00:38:26,340 --> 00:38:26,879 Speaker 2: and so forth. 708 00:38:27,260 --> 00:38:28,899 Speaker 1: Good word. And that's in some ways what you do 709 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,500 Speaker 1: in your book, Why Christianity Makes Sense, which is you 710 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: don't get into some of these particulars here. As I 711 00:38:35,060 --> 00:38:37,259 Speaker 1: look at the beginning here, clearly you lay out, talk 712 00:38:37,300 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: about life without God is absurd. Evidence Jesus rose from 713 00:38:41,460 --> 00:38:43,540 Speaker 1: the grave. You start there. I love that. Evidence for 714 00:38:43,580 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: intelligent design. Claims that Jesus is God. Fulfilled prophecy. It's 715 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,650 Speaker 1: a wonderful... mere Christianity book that I think would find 716 00:38:50,750 --> 00:38:54,830 Speaker 1: common ground and value across these differences. So I encourage 717 00:38:54,890 --> 00:38:56,690 Speaker 1: folks to pick it up. We'd love to have you 718 00:38:56,710 --> 00:38:59,010 Speaker 1: come study with us here at Talbot School of Theology. 719 00:38:59,469 --> 00:39:02,060 Speaker 1: I teach here in Southern California. You are on staff 720 00:39:02,100 --> 00:39:05,540 Speaker 1: in our new Phoenix Talbot campus. A lot of people 721 00:39:05,580 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: don't know. So thrilled you're a part of the team. 722 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:09,700 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining my office. What a lot of people 723 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,460 Speaker 1: don't know is the reason we're in my office is 724 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,660 Speaker 1: a skunk got into the studio. It's been so hot 725 00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:17,110 Speaker 1: here that we just threw this together at the last minute. 726 00:39:17,140 --> 00:39:20,070 Speaker 1: But you did a great job. Super helpful. Thanks, Gavin. 727 00:39:20,210 --> 00:39:20,790 Speaker 3: Great to be with you.