1 00:00:03,810 --> 00:00:07,370 Speaker 1: Sometimes I think as we're waiting for God to take 2 00:00:07,470 --> 00:00:09,969 Speaker 1: us on the other side of that door, we have 3 00:00:10,010 --> 00:00:13,430 Speaker 1: to realize that there's work that he's doing on this 4 00:00:13,510 --> 00:00:17,090 Speaker 1: side of the door to prepare us for that side 5 00:00:17,130 --> 00:00:17,550 Speaker 1: of the door. 6 00:00:21,650 --> 00:00:24,220 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Faith Over Fear podcast, where we discuss 7 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 2: powerful truths to quiet anxiety and fear, big and small. 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,700 Speaker 2: I'm your host, Jennifer Slattery, and today we're continuing our 9 00:00:31,820 --> 00:00:34,860 Speaker 2: Hearing God series to dive into a question that has 10 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,850 Speaker 2: caused me personally a lot of angst, particularly when I 11 00:00:37,890 --> 00:00:40,410 Speaker 2: need to make an important decision, and that is, what 12 00:00:40,450 --> 00:00:44,370 Speaker 2: if I mishear God? When I'm stuck in that ambiguity, 13 00:00:44,430 --> 00:00:47,830 Speaker 2: I'm prone to wrestle with a destabilizing lie. If I 14 00:00:47,909 --> 00:00:50,950 Speaker 2: mishear God, I'll veer from the path he planned for 15 00:00:50,990 --> 00:00:54,140 Speaker 2: me and will not only upset or disappoint him, but 16 00:00:54,220 --> 00:00:57,740 Speaker 2: I'll potentially either land in a mess or miss out 17 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: on something really beautiful. Because as today's guest, Bible teacher 18 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: Erica Wiggenhorn reminded me prior to our recording, sometimes we 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 2: must not only decide between the good and the bad, 20 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,100 Speaker 2: the godly and the immoral, but sometimes we're just staring 21 00:01:10,180 --> 00:01:12,580 Speaker 2: at a bunch of really good choices and we want 22 00:01:12,620 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 2: to know, Lord, which one is the best? And that 23 00:01:15,660 --> 00:01:19,260 Speaker 2: can get us stuck in an anxious spiral. Erica, thank 24 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,970 Speaker 2: you so much for joining us again on Faith Over Fear. 25 00:01:22,990 --> 00:01:24,850 Speaker 1: It's good to be back. 26 00:01:25,450 --> 00:01:30,980 Speaker 2: Erica is a multi-published Bible teacher, a national speaker who 27 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,750 Speaker 2: has a close relationship with the Lord and a passion 28 00:01:34,890 --> 00:01:38,350 Speaker 2: for seeing people walk in his truth, his grace, and 29 00:01:38,390 --> 00:01:41,789 Speaker 2: the freedom that he offers. And I know this is 30 00:01:41,830 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 2: a topic that you have personally wrestled with in your life. 31 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,340 Speaker 2: So tell us about a time when you were facing 32 00:01:50,380 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 2: a major decision and you were seeking God's will, but 33 00:01:53,060 --> 00:01:55,220 Speaker 2: you're like, ah, I got to move, but I'm not 34 00:01:55,260 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: really sure if this is him. Yeah. 35 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,980 Speaker 1: You know what, Jennifer? I'm so glad that we're talking 36 00:02:01,020 --> 00:02:04,340 Speaker 1: about this today because you brought something up about sometimes 37 00:02:04,420 --> 00:02:08,220 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, well, It's not always a right or 38 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,740 Speaker 1: wrong decision. But I have had times in my life 39 00:02:12,180 --> 00:02:14,870 Speaker 1: where I knew God was speaking and I just chose 40 00:02:14,910 --> 00:02:15,489 Speaker 1: to ignore him. 41 00:02:15,950 --> 00:02:16,190 Speaker 2: Right. 42 00:02:16,910 --> 00:02:20,730 Speaker 1: And then I get stuck in the in the sense of, well, 43 00:02:20,770 --> 00:02:24,500 Speaker 1: now is God angry with me, disappointed in me. So 44 00:02:24,530 --> 00:02:27,700 Speaker 1: when I try to seek him in the future. he's 45 00:02:27,740 --> 00:02:29,459 Speaker 1: not going to answer me, right? Because he's going to 46 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: be like, well, you know what? Last time you sought me, 47 00:02:31,860 --> 00:02:33,700 Speaker 1: I gave you an answer and you just ignored me. 48 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: And so I love that we're talking about this today 49 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,930 Speaker 1: because I think there's so much grace and comfort in 50 00:02:40,950 --> 00:02:44,489 Speaker 1: the scriptures that we serve a God who does a 51 00:02:44,650 --> 00:02:48,350 Speaker 1: lot of do-overs with his daughters, with his people, his 52 00:02:48,389 --> 00:02:51,230 Speaker 1: sons and daughters. But I remember there was a season 53 00:02:51,490 --> 00:02:54,330 Speaker 1: in my life, my husband and I were living on 54 00:02:54,350 --> 00:02:56,450 Speaker 1: the East Coast and My parents were still living on 55 00:02:56,470 --> 00:02:58,410 Speaker 1: the West coast. I grew up, I'm a West coast girl. 56 00:02:58,430 --> 00:03:00,590 Speaker 1: I grew up in the West coast, but my father 57 00:03:00,710 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: had a horrible diagnosis and we knew that time, his 58 00:03:06,620 --> 00:03:09,460 Speaker 1: time on earth was going to be short. And I 59 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,780 Speaker 1: desperately wanted to move back to the West coast to 60 00:03:12,820 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: be close to my father, like immediately, like I was 61 00:03:16,460 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: ready to, you know, pack some suitcases and get on 62 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,250 Speaker 1: the plane and go home and be with my dad. 63 00:03:22,770 --> 00:03:26,510 Speaker 1: And I, My husband started looking for jobs on the 64 00:03:26,550 --> 00:03:30,670 Speaker 1: West Coast. He got a job offer pretty quickly. And 65 00:03:31,490 --> 00:03:34,830 Speaker 1: he was kind of like, you know, I get that 66 00:03:34,870 --> 00:03:37,610 Speaker 1: you want to be with your dad. I get that 67 00:03:37,650 --> 00:03:40,090 Speaker 1: you want to be back on the West Coast. But 68 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,140 Speaker 1: this job offer, it's just not feeling right. And I 69 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,140 Speaker 1: just don't think this is it. And I think we 70 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:47,660 Speaker 1: just need to wait a little bit more. I think 71 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,260 Speaker 1: we need to trust God that there's something else out there. 72 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,950 Speaker 1: I'm just not feeling like this is right. And I 73 00:03:54,010 --> 00:03:56,790 Speaker 1: was so bent on, I just have to get home. 74 00:03:56,830 --> 00:03:59,350 Speaker 1: I just have to get home that I really struggled 75 00:04:00,190 --> 00:04:03,250 Speaker 1: with that. And it wasn't common for my husband and 76 00:04:03,350 --> 00:04:05,570 Speaker 1: I to not like be so on the same page 77 00:04:05,590 --> 00:04:08,730 Speaker 1: all the time. And as soon as he turned that 78 00:04:08,770 --> 00:04:12,530 Speaker 1: job down, then it was literally like two or three 79 00:04:12,570 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: months of just crickets, like nothing, like nothing was happening. 80 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,810 Speaker 1: And I remember thinking, oh, Did we just like lean 81 00:04:20,910 --> 00:04:25,650 Speaker 1: too much on practicality and our own decision-making powers? Were 82 00:04:25,670 --> 00:04:28,620 Speaker 1: we not following God and radical faith, even though the 83 00:04:28,650 --> 00:04:33,020 Speaker 1: job didn't totally make sense? Was God just asking us 84 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:38,339 Speaker 1: to do it anyway? And I really started beating myself up. 85 00:04:38,420 --> 00:04:41,220 Speaker 1: Like we, we were supposed to take that job and 86 00:04:41,460 --> 00:04:43,780 Speaker 1: we didn't do it. And now I don't know if 87 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,580 Speaker 1: I'm going to get home before my dad passes and 88 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,089 Speaker 1: I'm And it really sent me into a spiral, Jennifer. 89 00:04:52,790 --> 00:04:55,849 Speaker 1: And by God's grace, because I know someone out there 90 00:04:55,890 --> 00:04:59,070 Speaker 1: listening is like, oh my gosh, what happened? By God's grace, 91 00:04:59,710 --> 00:05:03,330 Speaker 1: God did give us a do-over. And he ended up 92 00:05:03,470 --> 00:05:06,589 Speaker 1: opening up a job and we got home and I 93 00:05:06,650 --> 00:05:11,350 Speaker 1: was able to spend some really great time with my 94 00:05:11,390 --> 00:05:14,550 Speaker 1: dad before he passed. But it was a bumpy road. 95 00:05:15,180 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: to get there. And what I want people listening, I 96 00:05:19,339 --> 00:05:21,820 Speaker 1: really want them to hear this because this is what 97 00:05:21,900 --> 00:05:25,730 Speaker 1: God taught me through that very hard season and coming 98 00:05:25,810 --> 00:05:28,890 Speaker 1: out on the other side of it is when we 99 00:05:28,910 --> 00:05:34,750 Speaker 1: are seeking God for his direction, it's not about perfection. 100 00:05:34,950 --> 00:05:37,970 Speaker 1: It's not about getting it right every time. It's not 101 00:05:38,010 --> 00:05:45,220 Speaker 1: about full-fledged, all-in, hardcore, radical faith, obedience every time. It's 102 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: not about perfection. It's about pursuit. And God knows our 103 00:05:51,620 --> 00:05:55,300 Speaker 1: hearts and he hears our hearts and he hears the 104 00:05:55,400 --> 00:06:01,250 Speaker 1: cries of our hearts. And his desire is to direct us. 105 00:06:02,730 --> 00:06:07,270 Speaker 1: He wants to show us what he wants for us. 106 00:06:07,850 --> 00:06:10,450 Speaker 1: And I think this is so important to understand because 107 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,340 Speaker 1: When you look at the whole of scripture, Jennifer, and 108 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: you look at all the times the prophets are like 109 00:06:15,820 --> 00:06:18,420 Speaker 1: going to God's people and they're like, hear the word 110 00:06:18,460 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: of the Lord. This is what the Lord says, right? 111 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: They have a human standing in front of them, making 112 00:06:24,140 --> 00:06:27,290 Speaker 1: it abundantly clear what God is telling them to do, 113 00:06:27,850 --> 00:06:31,070 Speaker 1: which how many times have I prayed that? Like, you 114 00:06:31,089 --> 00:06:33,510 Speaker 1: know what, God? It's like Isaiah could just show up 115 00:06:33,610 --> 00:06:35,710 Speaker 1: and stand in front of me and go, here's what 116 00:06:35,750 --> 00:06:38,830 Speaker 1: you need to do in this situation, Erica, right? And 117 00:06:38,850 --> 00:06:40,930 Speaker 1: we don't have that. We have the Holy Spirit as 118 00:06:41,710 --> 00:06:44,410 Speaker 1: as believers. If we're followers of Jesus, we have that 119 00:06:44,450 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: guarantee the Holy Spirit. We'll talk about more of that later. 120 00:06:47,460 --> 00:06:51,740 Speaker 1: But the point is, is that God's people, even though 121 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: they had the direct words of God, there was no 122 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: question what God was telling them to do. It wasn't 123 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,630 Speaker 1: that they weren't hearing. It was that they weren't pursuing. 124 00:07:02,130 --> 00:07:05,539 Speaker 1: They didn't really want what God wanted. And so there's 125 00:07:05,580 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: so much comfort in that because what I see in 126 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:12,110 Speaker 1: the scripture is this. When we're truly seeking God's direction, 127 00:07:12,730 --> 00:07:16,690 Speaker 1: he's going to be faithful to deliver. The prophets were 128 00:07:16,710 --> 00:07:19,310 Speaker 1: the ones who were truly seeking God. And as they 129 00:07:19,350 --> 00:07:22,850 Speaker 1: were seeking God, like going, the world is a mess. 130 00:07:22,950 --> 00:07:25,670 Speaker 1: This is a mess. God, where are you? God, what 131 00:07:25,710 --> 00:07:26,270 Speaker 1: are you doing? 132 00:07:26,590 --> 00:07:26,850 Speaker 2: Right? 133 00:07:26,950 --> 00:07:30,100 Speaker 1: The prophets were crying out to God, asking that. And 134 00:07:30,180 --> 00:07:35,500 Speaker 1: God was delivering direction there. to them. It's all about, 135 00:07:35,740 --> 00:07:39,260 Speaker 1: do you really want to know what God wants and 136 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:40,100 Speaker 1: he'll be faithful? 137 00:07:40,900 --> 00:07:44,100 Speaker 2: I love that. And so I've read your Bible study 138 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:50,740 Speaker 2: on unexplained, I think it's called, and we'll have to 139 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:51,940 Speaker 2: link to that in the show notes because you were 140 00:07:52,020 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: on here to talk about it. So I know you've 141 00:07:53,610 --> 00:07:57,150 Speaker 2: spent a chunk of time in the book of Acts 142 00:07:57,550 --> 00:08:01,140 Speaker 2: and There's one character in Acts that I think is 143 00:08:01,230 --> 00:08:06,450 Speaker 2: actually his entire life is a great example of what 144 00:08:06,470 --> 00:08:09,300 Speaker 2: you're describing. So I'd love if you could, for our listeners, 145 00:08:09,580 --> 00:08:11,700 Speaker 2: lay out a little of the background. I'm talking about 146 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 2: the Apostle Paul. To those who don't know him, he 147 00:08:14,620 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 2: was a Pharisee turned Christ follower, and he wrote much 148 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,620 Speaker 2: of the New Testament. Can you give us a little, 149 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,220 Speaker 2: I'm thinking of Acts 16, where he had something in 150 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 2: his heart that he's like, I want to do this. 151 00:08:27,380 --> 00:08:31,140 Speaker 2: And the Lord's like, let me shift you another direction. 152 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,710 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love Paul. Sometimes I don't like Paul, Jennifer, 153 00:08:36,730 --> 00:08:39,849 Speaker 1: because he's such a beast for Jesus. I mean, this 154 00:08:39,990 --> 00:08:42,949 Speaker 1: guy is so all in. But here's the thing about Paul. 155 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: Right. 156 00:08:43,580 --> 00:08:46,620 Speaker 1: He grew up a Pharisee. You mentioned being a Pharisee. 157 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,580 Speaker 1: And what that person is, is someone who's just like 158 00:08:50,059 --> 00:08:55,500 Speaker 1: he was a hyper religious Jew. And he felt like 159 00:08:55,620 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: if he ticked all the boxes and did all the 160 00:08:58,420 --> 00:09:02,290 Speaker 1: right things, God would be pleased with him. He would 161 00:09:02,390 --> 00:09:07,490 Speaker 1: have God's favor. So he was a professional religious performer, 162 00:09:07,870 --> 00:09:09,650 Speaker 1: if I could put it that way. Right. 163 00:09:10,490 --> 00:09:10,630 Speaker 2: And. 164 00:09:11,380 --> 00:09:15,290 Speaker 1: He was so against Jesus because the message of the 165 00:09:15,330 --> 00:09:19,530 Speaker 1: gospel is you can quit striving. You can quit performing. 166 00:09:19,950 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: Jesus has done it for you. Come and rest in grace. 167 00:09:24,980 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: And Paul did not understand grace. And Jesus got a 168 00:09:28,100 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: hold of his life. We read about it in Acts 7, 169 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: I believe, Acts 7, 8. I'm not a very good 170 00:09:33,660 --> 00:09:36,510 Speaker 1: numbers girl. I'm a word girl. But Jesus shows up 171 00:09:36,550 --> 00:09:39,490 Speaker 1: to Paul and radically changes his life and says, what 172 00:09:39,530 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: are you doing? You're persecuting my people and I am 173 00:09:43,460 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: calling you to follow me, Paul. And he does. He 174 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,979 Speaker 1: begins to follow Jesus. And once Paul begins to follow Jesus, 175 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:57,449 Speaker 1: he follows Jesus with the same intensity and energy that 176 00:09:57,510 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: he did chasing the works. of the law. He is 177 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: sold out for Jesus. Now, part of that I think 178 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,100 Speaker 1: is because we read in Acts 8, Paul made some 179 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 1: very big mistakes in his life before he became a 180 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,330 Speaker 1: follower of Jesus. But what happens is, is he... is 181 00:10:17,510 --> 00:10:22,790 Speaker 1: so certain, he has this deep, deep desire that he 182 00:10:22,890 --> 00:10:25,950 Speaker 1: wants to go and spread the gospel. He wants to 183 00:10:26,070 --> 00:10:30,620 Speaker 1: do a work for God in a specific place. And 184 00:10:30,660 --> 00:10:32,820 Speaker 1: I think this is so important because it wasn't like 185 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,740 Speaker 1: Paul's like, please let me go sin, God, turn a 186 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,020 Speaker 1: blind eye to my bad choice, right? He wanted to 187 00:10:39,100 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: do what was right. He wanted to go preach the gospel. 188 00:10:42,260 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: So how could that be wrong, right? But he was 189 00:10:44,700 --> 00:10:48,580 Speaker 1: so certain where he wanted to go. And in that, 190 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,500 Speaker 1: Jesus was so faithful to show up and just keep 191 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,890 Speaker 1: shutting the door and shutting the door on all the 192 00:10:56,990 --> 00:11:00,010 Speaker 1: places that Paul thought he was supposed to go. And 193 00:11:00,650 --> 00:11:05,150 Speaker 1: then finally revealing to Paul, no, I am calling you 194 00:11:05,730 --> 00:11:10,339 Speaker 1: to go to Macedonia, Paul, which wasn't even on his radar. 195 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: And so this just kind of circles back to what 196 00:11:13,100 --> 00:11:19,890 Speaker 1: we just said. It's not about perfection. It's about pursuit. 197 00:11:24,620 --> 00:11:28,140 Speaker 1: When we're not entirely sure what God wants us to do, 198 00:11:28,220 --> 00:11:31,580 Speaker 1: but we're seeking him and wanting what he wants, we 199 00:11:31,620 --> 00:11:34,619 Speaker 1: can keep moving forward and trust that he's going to 200 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,260 Speaker 1: stop and redirect us when we're going the wrong way. 201 00:11:38,420 --> 00:11:41,089 Speaker 1: We don't have to just sit here anxiously like, I 202 00:11:41,130 --> 00:11:43,449 Speaker 1: can't do anything until I have a burning bush in 203 00:11:43,470 --> 00:11:45,050 Speaker 1: my backyard, like Moses, right? 204 00:11:45,210 --> 00:11:47,470 Speaker 2: I think too, when we land in that place, often 205 00:11:47,490 --> 00:11:50,250 Speaker 2: like before, we can get tempted to keep pushing on 206 00:11:50,290 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 2: that closed door. And I think when that happens, maybe 207 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,740 Speaker 2: evaluating why is it, is God calling us to persevere? 208 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,580 Speaker 2: And there are times when I think that that happened 209 00:12:01,620 --> 00:12:04,859 Speaker 2: with my writing journey. But I will say during that, 210 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,989 Speaker 2: I would routinely pray like, Lord, if this isn't of you, 211 00:12:08,900 --> 00:12:11,980 Speaker 2: remove my desire, redirect my desire. So I think that's 212 00:12:12,020 --> 00:12:15,020 Speaker 2: a really good practice. But also I think sometimes we 213 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,750 Speaker 2: can look at that closed door and we think that 214 00:12:17,929 --> 00:12:20,730 Speaker 2: the life we want is behind it, that that's going 215 00:12:20,750 --> 00:12:23,850 Speaker 2: to bring us fulfillment. That's going to elevate our ministry. 216 00:12:23,890 --> 00:12:26,410 Speaker 2: That's going to make us the most fruitful. And so 217 00:12:26,630 --> 00:12:31,030 Speaker 2: there's an element of trust when God does redirect. And 218 00:12:31,110 --> 00:12:33,370 Speaker 2: this is, I love that you bring up just God's 219 00:12:33,450 --> 00:12:37,250 Speaker 2: grace to lead us. So he wanted to go to Asia. 220 00:12:38,260 --> 00:12:40,500 Speaker 2: And we actually see that he later did go there. 221 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,870 Speaker 2: So that tells me that maybe he got the Holy 222 00:12:42,929 --> 00:12:47,030 Speaker 2: Spirit igniting in his soul. Just the timing was a 223 00:12:47,070 --> 00:12:50,620 Speaker 2: little off. But there was a very important detour when 224 00:12:50,660 --> 00:12:52,620 Speaker 2: he went to Macedonia. He went to Philippi that day. 225 00:12:53,150 --> 00:12:55,070 Speaker 2: If you read the book of Philippians, that was the 226 00:12:55,330 --> 00:12:59,020 Speaker 2: only church, I believe, that he let financially support him. 227 00:12:59,059 --> 00:13:00,980 Speaker 2: So that's a big element of trust. And they became 228 00:13:01,020 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: an emotional support to him. And it's almost like God 229 00:13:04,420 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 2: is saying, maybe in our day, yeah, you are going 230 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: to finish that degree. Or yes, you are going to 231 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,849 Speaker 2: have this career that's going to be stable. But first, 232 00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:13,910 Speaker 2: I need to do this work in your soul or 233 00:13:13,950 --> 00:13:17,750 Speaker 2: work in your experiences so that when you reach that place, 234 00:13:17,850 --> 00:13:21,010 Speaker 2: like later when... Paul really relied on the Philippians. It 235 00:13:21,030 --> 00:13:25,380 Speaker 2: was during a very difficult, painful time in his ministry. 236 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,660 Speaker 2: So I think it's an opportunity. I often on this 237 00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:32,990 Speaker 2: show encourage listeners to go back to John 10, 10. 238 00:13:32,990 --> 00:13:38,390 Speaker 2: And when we're struggling to follow God's leading, To recognize 239 00:13:38,450 --> 00:13:43,699 Speaker 2: we have two options. We can either go towards increased anxiety, fear, dysfunction, despair, 240 00:13:43,750 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 2: and ultimately death or increased life. And I like what 241 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,900 Speaker 2: you said, again, just relaying as long as we're pursuing Jesus, 242 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 2: he said, come to me and learn from me. So 243 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:55,140 Speaker 2: I think that's comforting. 244 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,250 Speaker 1: I do want to respond a little bit like you 245 00:13:57,260 --> 00:14:00,050 Speaker 1: brought up your writing journey. And I think that this 246 00:14:00,210 --> 00:14:02,709 Speaker 1: parallels sort of the work that God was doing in Paul. 247 00:14:02,929 --> 00:14:04,650 Speaker 1: You want to get to the other side of, you 248 00:14:04,690 --> 00:14:06,110 Speaker 1: want to get on the other side of that door. 249 00:14:06,740 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 1: But the reality is, is that even in this waiting 250 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:14,220 Speaker 1: and working and editing and redoing and sitting with God 251 00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:18,260 Speaker 1: as you are working out this manuscript and such, there's 252 00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:23,479 Speaker 1: something that's happening within you. And so sometimes the waiting 253 00:14:23,660 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: isn't about the circumstance as much as it is about 254 00:14:26,380 --> 00:14:28,780 Speaker 1: our own heart. I mean, I can share in my 255 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:34,230 Speaker 1: own life, pretty transparently, we have... broken relationship with our 256 00:14:34,310 --> 00:14:38,110 Speaker 1: young adult son. And I have prayed over and over like, Lord, 257 00:14:38,170 --> 00:14:40,989 Speaker 1: how long? Like, bring him home to you so he'll 258 00:14:41,030 --> 00:14:43,550 Speaker 1: come home to us. And when I have prayed that 259 00:14:43,710 --> 00:14:46,810 Speaker 1: over and over and over, and it's like the waiting 260 00:14:47,130 --> 00:14:51,530 Speaker 1: is excruciating. And I sensed the Lord saying to me, 261 00:14:51,670 --> 00:14:56,100 Speaker 1: you cannot keep him from his testimony. You have to 262 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,020 Speaker 1: trust that I'm working and in ways you can't see yet. 263 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: And so sometimes I think as we're waiting for God 264 00:15:03,740 --> 00:15:06,060 Speaker 1: to take us on the other side of that door, 265 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,620 Speaker 1: we have to realize that there's work that he's doing 266 00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:13,250 Speaker 1: on this side of the door to prepare us for 267 00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:16,630 Speaker 1: that side of the door. And so sometimes it's not 268 00:15:16,810 --> 00:15:21,870 Speaker 1: always seeking God to open a door or to bang 269 00:15:21,950 --> 00:15:24,850 Speaker 1: our head against the door or try to pound down 270 00:15:24,910 --> 00:15:28,260 Speaker 1: the door. As much as it is to say, I'm 271 00:15:28,300 --> 00:15:32,420 Speaker 1: going to work on abiding with you, which just means 272 00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:36,810 Speaker 1: spending time with you in prayer and in your word 273 00:15:37,250 --> 00:15:42,710 Speaker 1: right here, trusting the timing, trusting the timing. 274 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and I'm thinking of what you say too, 275 00:15:45,980 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: maybe a shift in prayer, at least that's been helpful 276 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,780 Speaker 2: to me is what is my very next step? I 277 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 2: think humanly speaking, we want to know five years down 278 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,540 Speaker 2: the road and that can keep us stuck in that 279 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,110 Speaker 2: anxious spiral. And I know listeners are going to like, 280 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,850 Speaker 2: this is on their mind. What if, what if I'm 281 00:16:02,870 --> 00:16:06,030 Speaker 2: being deceived? I know that's been a huge fear of mine. 282 00:16:06,350 --> 00:16:09,790 Speaker 2: And when you're talking, one thing I've found the devil 283 00:16:09,830 --> 00:16:14,530 Speaker 2: makes everything seem urgent. And especially when we're dealing with 284 00:16:14,650 --> 00:16:16,630 Speaker 2: situations like yours are complex. It's not like you're going 285 00:16:16,650 --> 00:16:18,350 Speaker 2: to have one conversation, one prayer, and it's going to 286 00:16:18,370 --> 00:16:21,370 Speaker 2: be fixed. And that's when I think we really wrestle 287 00:16:21,410 --> 00:16:26,860 Speaker 2: for guidance. And because there's so much pain, deep, deep 288 00:16:26,910 --> 00:16:30,500 Speaker 2: pain involved, and we don't like hurting and God doesn't 289 00:16:30,540 --> 00:16:32,140 Speaker 2: want us to hurt. And we want to get out 290 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: of it really quickly, but we, I think we can 291 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 2: pause and say, even if we don't fully have the 292 00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:41,850 Speaker 2: clear direction, and even if we find ourselves stuck in 293 00:16:41,890 --> 00:16:44,530 Speaker 2: fear for a bit as a parent or maybe at 294 00:16:44,570 --> 00:16:47,750 Speaker 2: your job or wherever it is, God is still faithful. 295 00:16:47,910 --> 00:16:50,370 Speaker 2: So as long as we're not like, Lord, I don't 296 00:16:50,430 --> 00:16:52,470 Speaker 2: want you. I don't want what you have to say. 297 00:16:52,750 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 2: He will still work in that situation in our anxious spiral. 298 00:16:58,140 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 2: But the devil will tell us we have to fix 299 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:02,100 Speaker 2: it and we have to fix it right now. So 300 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,300 Speaker 2: maybe that's another good filter. litmus test. Am I feeling 301 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,780 Speaker 2: like I'm carrying the weight in this situation? Because I 302 00:17:09,940 --> 00:17:13,900 Speaker 2: think when we begin to carry the weight and feel 303 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,689 Speaker 2: like it's up to us, then our self-reliance begins to 304 00:17:17,730 --> 00:17:21,590 Speaker 2: war against God's spirit and it becomes more confusing. So 305 00:17:21,650 --> 00:17:23,929 Speaker 2: what do you do to keep your heart? Because we 306 00:17:23,970 --> 00:17:26,470 Speaker 2: have natural desires and that's not a bad desire to 307 00:17:26,510 --> 00:17:32,060 Speaker 2: reconcile with your son. That is a godly, holy, beautiful desire. 308 00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: It's also a very deep desire where your humanity is 309 00:17:34,820 --> 00:17:39,459 Speaker 2: going to come in place. So how can you, when 310 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,990 Speaker 2: you've got those really intense emotions, how can you begin 311 00:17:43,010 --> 00:17:46,189 Speaker 2: to differentiate? I'm trying to carry something that God's not 312 00:17:46,210 --> 00:17:48,830 Speaker 2: trying to carry. And that's part of my confusion. 313 00:17:49,070 --> 00:17:53,100 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question. For me, it's, you know, 314 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,859 Speaker 1: it's going back to the word of God. There are 315 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,100 Speaker 1: so many patterns in God's word. And one of the 316 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,140 Speaker 1: patterns that we see over and over is that he 317 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: does his best work in the waiting. I mean, if 318 00:18:06,180 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: you want to pick just hardly anybody in scripture that 319 00:18:11,300 --> 00:18:16,550 Speaker 1: was called by God has sort of this instantaneous showing 320 00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:19,990 Speaker 1: up and And God speaks and they're called and they're 321 00:18:20,090 --> 00:18:23,430 Speaker 1: off on their way and everything is just smooth sailing 322 00:18:23,490 --> 00:18:25,830 Speaker 1: and there's no doubts and there's no questions. But one 323 00:18:25,869 --> 00:18:29,790 Speaker 1: thing I want to say, Jennifer, it's so easy to say, well, 324 00:18:29,810 --> 00:18:32,410 Speaker 1: you've got to seek God and his word. That's no 325 00:18:32,450 --> 00:18:35,669 Speaker 1: big aha moment for anyone. We all know that. And 326 00:18:35,730 --> 00:18:38,300 Speaker 1: most of us, if we're honest. live in the guilt 327 00:18:38,340 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: and shame of, I know I should really be reading 328 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: my Bible more. It's just so hard for me. I 329 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: don't understand it, which I completely get because for so 330 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,419 Speaker 1: many years of my life, I felt like I needed 331 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: a secret decoder ring to read the Bible. I wanted 332 00:18:53,820 --> 00:18:56,619 Speaker 1: to know Jesus, but when I would open up my Bible, 333 00:18:56,770 --> 00:18:59,950 Speaker 1: I was lost. I was confused. And so there's two 334 00:19:00,010 --> 00:19:02,470 Speaker 1: things about reading the Bible that I think are really 335 00:19:02,530 --> 00:19:05,490 Speaker 1: important for us to understand. And the first one is 336 00:19:05,590 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: that The Bible is God's word, but it was not 337 00:19:09,660 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: written to us. It was written to the people at 338 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,929 Speaker 1: that time. It was written for us. It's meant for us, 339 00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:22,909 Speaker 1: but we live in a different time and culture than 340 00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:27,350 Speaker 1: the original audience. And as such, there are times when 341 00:19:27,410 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: it's very confusing, just like King David could not fathom 342 00:19:31,859 --> 00:19:37,379 Speaker 1: growing up in Los Angeles in 1980. I can't fathom 343 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: living in Jerusalem in 1100 BC. So there's things about 344 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,070 Speaker 1: the Bible that are always going to be a little 345 00:19:45,090 --> 00:19:49,790 Speaker 1: bit confusing to us. And that's normal. So don't beat 346 00:19:49,830 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: your up over it. One of the things that I've learned, 347 00:19:52,859 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: and this is really that whole struggle was really my 348 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,340 Speaker 1: catalyst to start writing Bible studies so I could help 349 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: people kind of make sense of scripture because I understood 350 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,810 Speaker 1: that frustration of I don't What does that mean? If 351 00:20:06,869 --> 00:20:10,510 Speaker 1: that's you, I really want to encourage you. The story 352 00:20:10,530 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: of the Bible is a story. And when you understand 353 00:20:14,020 --> 00:20:16,780 Speaker 1: a part of the plot and the biggest part of 354 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,939 Speaker 1: the plot is Jesus. And when you understand Jesus, the 355 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,100 Speaker 1: rest of the story is going to make so much 356 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,700 Speaker 1: more sense to you. The second thing about the Bible 357 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,290 Speaker 1: is this. tended us to take these words of his 358 00:20:29,410 --> 00:20:32,570 Speaker 1: that he has left us to be studied in community, 359 00:20:32,730 --> 00:20:37,129 Speaker 1: in a circle of others, because that is how God 360 00:20:37,340 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: guards us from taking the words of scripture and becoming 361 00:20:42,180 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: more confused by them. He has given us each other 362 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,410 Speaker 1: to help us understand it more deeply. But his word 363 00:20:50,430 --> 00:20:55,100 Speaker 1: is is his words. And the more time you spend 364 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,830 Speaker 1: in it, the more time you're going to be able 365 00:20:57,910 --> 00:20:59,629 Speaker 1: to discern his voice. 366 00:21:07,490 --> 00:21:09,050 Speaker 2: Yeah. A couple of things I thought of as you 367 00:21:09,070 --> 00:21:13,419 Speaker 2: were talking, some practices that I do to just as 368 00:21:13,460 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 2: a preemptive, I want to approach my scripture reading, my 369 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,180 Speaker 2: silent times with God, my hearing from the spirit with 370 00:21:21,380 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 2: a pure heart. So I will one passage. I love 371 00:21:23,619 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 2: Romans 12, one and two. It says offer your body 372 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:27,820 Speaker 2: and view of God's mercy, offer your body as a 373 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 2: living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to the Lord. So I'll 374 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 2: go through this thing like, Lord, I give you my time, 375 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,660 Speaker 2: my agenda, like my whole self is how I interpret that. 376 00:21:37,470 --> 00:21:38,830 Speaker 2: And then it says, do not be conformed to the 377 00:21:38,850 --> 00:21:41,010 Speaker 2: ways of the world, but be transformed by the renewing 378 00:21:41,050 --> 00:21:44,290 Speaker 2: of your mind. And then you will know God's will, 379 00:21:44,330 --> 00:21:46,830 Speaker 2: which is good and pleasing and perfect. And then another 380 00:21:46,990 --> 00:21:51,270 Speaker 2: one is Psalm 139 verses 23 to 24, which I'll 381 00:21:51,290 --> 00:21:53,050 Speaker 2: put these in the show notes, but basically it's an 382 00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:58,419 Speaker 2: invitation to to, Lord, search me, know me, purify my soul. 383 00:21:58,540 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 2: And then when I'm fearing deception, I like to pray 384 00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:05,300 Speaker 2: Psalm 139.5, which tells me the Lord basically surrounds me 385 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,210 Speaker 2: is how I'm going to say it. And so I 386 00:22:08,270 --> 00:22:11,810 Speaker 2: think if we are, and I will ask him specifically, 387 00:22:12,030 --> 00:22:15,250 Speaker 2: pretty frequently, Lord, lead me from deception, lead me towards 388 00:22:15,369 --> 00:22:18,230 Speaker 2: increased truth. One more thing too, that for me has 389 00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:22,859 Speaker 2: been a major shift in how I approach scripture. is, 390 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,740 Speaker 2: I am just looking at, this is my time to 391 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 2: connect with God. And when I approach it with that way, 392 00:22:28,940 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 2: I mean, yes, obviously I come like, Lord, I need 393 00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 2: an answer for this. But actually, as I get older 394 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: and walk with him more and more, I'm very much 395 00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:39,739 Speaker 2: less apt to say, Lord, give me that word. Give 396 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,660 Speaker 2: me that truth. And I'm more just apt, Lord, you're 397 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,180 Speaker 2: going to lead me. I'm showing up to encounter you today. 398 00:22:47,030 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 2: And I know you've talked in the past about recognizing 399 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:56,210 Speaker 2: God's character and his heart. in order to recognize his voice. 400 00:22:56,510 --> 00:22:59,690 Speaker 2: I feel like when we come to scripture with the priority, 401 00:22:59,730 --> 00:23:02,050 Speaker 2: let me give it actually a little story. We used 402 00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:05,090 Speaker 2: to do foster care. That's rough. I mean, we did 403 00:23:05,130 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 2: teenagers who were raised in the system, raised from abuse, 404 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 2: no trust, no relational understanding. I could tell them things 405 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,100 Speaker 2: that were very true. They did not believe it. It 406 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 2: did not land because nothing in their history provided the 407 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:25,540 Speaker 2: trust that where my words actually took root. And so 408 00:23:25,820 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 2: my priority always, even before like giving them, I wanted 409 00:23:31,180 --> 00:23:32,869 Speaker 2: them to, I didn't want them to drop out of school. 410 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,189 Speaker 2: I didn't want them to do drugs. They were doing 411 00:23:34,210 --> 00:23:36,550 Speaker 2: all these things. My heart was to step in and 412 00:23:36,570 --> 00:23:38,629 Speaker 2: just tell them what to do and make sure they 413 00:23:38,670 --> 00:23:41,330 Speaker 2: had to do it. But that's not going to build 414 00:23:41,910 --> 00:23:44,570 Speaker 2: what the foundation I was trying to build in their soul. 415 00:23:44,830 --> 00:23:51,619 Speaker 2: So I had to prioritize relationship before I revealed rules. 416 00:23:51,660 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 2: Now that doesn't mean I never, God is truthful. So 417 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,859 Speaker 2: I'm making an analogy, right? He will let us know, Hey, 418 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 2: that's not healthy for you. That's not going to go 419 00:24:00,270 --> 00:24:02,730 Speaker 2: the way you think. But if we can shift and 420 00:24:02,830 --> 00:24:08,770 Speaker 2: really prioritize relationship with the Lord, I feel like so 421 00:24:08,830 --> 00:24:11,490 Speaker 2: much else that takes care of so much else because 422 00:24:11,550 --> 00:24:13,170 Speaker 2: he is so, so faithful. 423 00:24:13,190 --> 00:24:17,670 Speaker 1: I love that. And you know, we've already talked about 424 00:24:17,710 --> 00:24:20,570 Speaker 1: patterns in scripture, but that's, That's one of the things 425 00:24:21,230 --> 00:24:24,870 Speaker 1: that God does in his word is he outlines for 426 00:24:24,950 --> 00:24:31,750 Speaker 1: us literally thousands of years of his faithfulness, of his trustworthiness. 427 00:24:31,869 --> 00:24:34,689 Speaker 1: He's like, get in this book of my words and 428 00:24:34,790 --> 00:24:40,169 Speaker 1: see how I have been faithful forever. I thought about 429 00:24:40,530 --> 00:24:44,170 Speaker 1: when Jesus says to his disciples, like right before he's 430 00:24:44,190 --> 00:24:45,750 Speaker 1: going to go to the cross and they're going to 431 00:24:45,790 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: go into this time of of great confusion and wrestling 432 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: over what is happening. And he says something so profound 433 00:24:54,180 --> 00:24:56,859 Speaker 1: to them. He says, I have many things to say 434 00:24:56,940 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when 435 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: the spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into 436 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,810 Speaker 1: all truth. This is in the gospel of John, if 437 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,070 Speaker 1: anyone wants to go read it later. But God's pacing 438 00:25:10,810 --> 00:25:15,669 Speaker 1: of his communication with us is so intentional. Jesus knew 439 00:25:15,690 --> 00:25:21,070 Speaker 1: his disciples were already, they were confused. They were overwhelmed. 440 00:25:21,550 --> 00:25:26,100 Speaker 1: They were just trying to process the circumstances happening in 441 00:25:26,220 --> 00:25:27,140 Speaker 1: real time in. 442 00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:30,260 Speaker 2: Front of them. Like he, a human rose from, human 443 00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 2: God rose from the dead. Like that's what happened. Right. 444 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:39,419 Speaker 1: And so, you know, they're, Jesus knows they're already confused 445 00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:42,550 Speaker 1: and they're about to step into a time of even 446 00:25:42,710 --> 00:25:46,590 Speaker 1: greater confusion. And maybe somebody out there is like, yes, 447 00:25:46,730 --> 00:25:50,969 Speaker 1: that is my life right now. Like I'm already confused. 448 00:25:51,070 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: I'm already feel like it's taking every last ounce of 449 00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:02,179 Speaker 1: my bandwidth to just process the circumstances I'm currently standing in. 450 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:07,300 Speaker 1: I can't even think about the future other than to say, God, 451 00:26:07,900 --> 00:26:13,260 Speaker 1: change something. And Jesus' heart was like, look, I'm going 452 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: to give you everything you need for right now in 453 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,580 Speaker 1: this moment today. And he says it earlier. He says, 454 00:26:20,660 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: don't worry about tomorrow. Tomorrow, each day has enough trouble 455 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,030 Speaker 1: of its own. But he says, when I send the 456 00:26:27,090 --> 00:26:29,609 Speaker 1: Holy Spirit, he's going to guide you into all truth. 457 00:26:29,690 --> 00:26:33,770 Speaker 1: And so he's letting the disciples know he's preparing them 458 00:26:34,010 --> 00:26:37,270 Speaker 1: because he knows he's about to go away. And Jesus 459 00:26:37,330 --> 00:26:40,450 Speaker 1: is like, but remember this, these questions that you have, 460 00:26:40,490 --> 00:26:44,449 Speaker 1: they're going to get answered at the right time and 461 00:26:44,510 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: when you are ready. And so sometimes we think we 462 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,619 Speaker 1: want to know certain things and we think we want 463 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: definitive answers. And what Jesus is saying, whatever you face, 464 00:26:58,619 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 1: you will have more than enough power to get through it, 465 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,020 Speaker 1: to endure it, and to have your faith in me 466 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:13,260 Speaker 1: hold fast. You will never, ever walk through anything alone 467 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: or unaided by me. I am with you always till 468 00:27:19,700 --> 00:27:21,500 Speaker 1: the very end of the age till I come back 469 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: and take you to be where I am. And that 470 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,370 Speaker 1: is a beautiful, beautiful promise. When we feel like the 471 00:27:29,450 --> 00:27:33,330 Speaker 1: world is just spinning and utter chaos around us and 472 00:27:33,410 --> 00:27:36,109 Speaker 1: our hearts are broken and we are afraid and we 473 00:27:36,170 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: are worried. In those moments, Jennifer, I just cry out 474 00:27:39,710 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 1: and I just say, Jesus, keep your promise. Jesus, keep 475 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,980 Speaker 1: your promise. I am on my face before you in desperation. 476 00:27:49,740 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: Show me today, right now, not tomorrow, not a week 477 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,270 Speaker 1: from now, not a year from now, right now, what 478 00:27:57,290 --> 00:28:00,990 Speaker 1: you're asking me to do in this very moment. 479 00:28:01,730 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 2: Yes. And also, so we were chatting a little before 480 00:28:05,619 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 2: the episode, and in our discussion, you had referenced... When 481 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,419 Speaker 2: Jesus led the disciples into a very terrifying situation. And 482 00:28:15,460 --> 00:28:16,780 Speaker 2: I would love for you to talk about that. And 483 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 2: the reason I feel that is so important. It is 484 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 2: so easy. I can look in my life. There was 485 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,740 Speaker 2: a season when God was doing a major, major work. 486 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 2: He had moved us across the country. We moved all 487 00:28:26,980 --> 00:28:30,619 Speaker 2: the way to Louisiana. My husband took a new job 488 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,340 Speaker 2: and then he quit. So we were without work for 489 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,219 Speaker 2: six months. And I felt back to my fears of 490 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,870 Speaker 2: being homeless and food. insecure and all the things, but 491 00:28:41,890 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 2: that was part of the plan. That was part of 492 00:28:44,150 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 2: the work of God. And so if you'd asked me 493 00:28:47,060 --> 00:28:50,420 Speaker 2: in that moment, I might've said my husband misheard him 494 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 2: and I was wrong to follow him into this situation. 495 00:28:53,380 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 2: This turned out horrific. And yet, if you asked me 496 00:28:58,740 --> 00:29:02,220 Speaker 2: three years after that, I would say that saved my marriage, 497 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 2: that brought dramatic healing, that brought our family together to 498 00:29:06,700 --> 00:29:09,570 Speaker 2: closer to God. I say all that to say we 499 00:29:09,590 --> 00:29:12,500 Speaker 2: can't get stuck in the snapshot. So talk about when 500 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,959 Speaker 2: the disciples, Jesus is like, you go do this. And 501 00:29:14,980 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 2: then they land in a mess, not out of disobedience, 502 00:29:20,030 --> 00:29:21,650 Speaker 2: but out of following the Lord's voice. 503 00:29:22,030 --> 00:29:24,290 Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm glad you bring that up because I hear 504 00:29:24,540 --> 00:29:27,380 Speaker 1: so many people often say like, well, you know, if 505 00:29:27,420 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: you're following God and you're doing what God wants you 506 00:29:29,620 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: to do, like, you're just going to have this peace. And, 507 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,770 Speaker 1: and it's almost like this promise, like everything, you know, 508 00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: rainbows and unicorns and everything's going to be great, right? 509 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: And I don't see that in scripture. I see God's 510 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,380 Speaker 1: presence with people, but they have to go through some 511 00:29:46,420 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: hard stuff. And I think about the disciples. It's been 512 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:55,990 Speaker 1: a long, exhausting day of ministry. And they're just like, ugh. 513 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:56,860 Speaker 2: Right? 514 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,540 Speaker 1: And Jesus is like, why don't you guys go get 515 00:29:59,580 --> 00:30:01,700 Speaker 1: in this boat, go on the other side of the 516 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:07,310 Speaker 1: lake and get some rest. And I'm sure they were like, hallelujah, amen, right? Like, 517 00:30:07,830 --> 00:30:10,290 Speaker 1: that's the best thing you've said to us all day, Jesus. 518 00:30:10,470 --> 00:30:12,490 Speaker 1: And so they get in the boat, but then this 519 00:30:12,550 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: storm kicks up and they're thinking, we're going to die. 520 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,660 Speaker 1: And then Jesus shows up and he's walking on the water. 521 00:30:19,580 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: And that doesn't like, bring them peace immediately just because 522 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: Jesus's presence is there. They're still pretty sure they're going 523 00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: to die. They're saying to Jesus, like, we're going to die. 524 00:30:31,820 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: And it's not until Jesus calms the storm that the 525 00:30:35,940 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: disciples calm down. And I think that's important to note 526 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,620 Speaker 1: because I think sometimes we put undue pressure on ourselves 527 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,020 Speaker 1: to say like, well, if Jesus is with me, then 528 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,220 Speaker 1: I'm just, I'm going to immediately have this unexplainable peace 529 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: and this irrepressible joy. And I'm just going to walk 530 00:30:54,340 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: in this place of euphoric victory every moment of every day. 531 00:30:59,460 --> 00:31:02,390 Speaker 1: And I don't think that that's what the scriptures tell us. 532 00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:07,530 Speaker 1: Even though Jesus is with us, we are still embodied 533 00:31:07,940 --> 00:31:13,010 Speaker 1: in this flesh that battles against our new identity in Christ. 534 00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:16,860 Speaker 1: So I think we need to just take some of 535 00:31:16,900 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: that pressure off of ourselves, like when we are afraid 536 00:31:20,180 --> 00:31:22,740 Speaker 1: and we're anxious and we're wrestling with doubt. And I 537 00:31:23,290 --> 00:31:25,910 Speaker 1: think the deeper question is, and this goes back to 538 00:31:25,990 --> 00:31:28,390 Speaker 1: what we talked about at the very beginning, do we 539 00:31:28,550 --> 00:31:31,790 Speaker 1: want to believe? It's not about whether or not we're 540 00:31:31,850 --> 00:31:36,479 Speaker 1: wrestling with the doubt. It's do we want to move 541 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,500 Speaker 1: beyond the doubt? It's all about our heart. It's about 542 00:31:39,540 --> 00:31:43,140 Speaker 1: our heart posture of what we are truly seeking. I'm 543 00:31:43,180 --> 00:31:46,180 Speaker 1: gonna give a little example because here's what I would say, 544 00:31:46,340 --> 00:31:49,460 Speaker 1: sort of a litmus test of our heart posture, okay? 545 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,740 Speaker 1: If I'm walking through the woods, I wake up in 546 00:31:51,780 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: the morning and I say, I wanna go walking over 547 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,370 Speaker 1: here on this trail. This is the path I wanna 548 00:31:56,380 --> 00:32:00,610 Speaker 1: go on. This is where I'm going today, God, and 549 00:32:00,870 --> 00:32:04,670 Speaker 1: please bless it. And I go out on that path 550 00:32:04,890 --> 00:32:09,300 Speaker 1: and I am standing before God a bear suddenly. In 551 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,420 Speaker 1: that moment, I am crying out to God and I'm saying, 552 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: rescue me from the bear, right? I'm not crying out 553 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: to God in that moment and saying, God, could you 554 00:32:19,340 --> 00:32:22,540 Speaker 1: give me five ways to get away from a bear 555 00:32:22,660 --> 00:32:25,740 Speaker 1: in the woods? Or could you instruct me on the 556 00:32:25,780 --> 00:32:29,110 Speaker 1: best hiking trails here in Arizona to go on and 557 00:32:29,140 --> 00:32:35,090 Speaker 1: to avoid? I am merely looking for immediate rescue. One 558 00:32:35,130 --> 00:32:39,750 Speaker 1: of the litmus tests of our heart can be this. 559 00:32:39,990 --> 00:32:44,970 Speaker 1: Are we heading out doing our own thing and demanding 560 00:32:45,090 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: God's protection? Or are we stopping and pausing and inviting 561 00:32:52,380 --> 00:32:56,500 Speaker 1: the Lord's direction? What I'm saying is, is the litmus 562 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,740 Speaker 1: test of our heart is, are we creating space for 563 00:32:59,780 --> 00:33:05,220 Speaker 1: God to direct before we head out? And if we are, 564 00:33:05,810 --> 00:33:09,670 Speaker 1: we can trust God to direct us on the right path. 565 00:33:10,290 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: If we're running ahead and just doing everything our own 566 00:33:13,620 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: way and demanding God what we want, the way we 567 00:33:18,380 --> 00:33:21,300 Speaker 1: want it and in the timeline we want it, we 568 00:33:21,340 --> 00:33:28,220 Speaker 1: might encounter some bears because we didn't pause and sit 569 00:33:28,260 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: with the ranger for some time. God is good. He's 570 00:33:34,420 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: at work. He's working in me He's working through me 571 00:33:40,260 --> 00:33:43,980 Speaker 1: and his works are good. And I can rest in that. 572 00:33:44,460 --> 00:33:47,020 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. No, that's great. And as we close, I 573 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 2: want to just emphasize a few things to the listeners 574 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,110 Speaker 2: to maybe... summarize our conversation a little today. The one 575 00:33:54,150 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 2: good thing, God, if we are seeking him, he will 576 00:33:57,390 --> 00:34:00,180 Speaker 2: lead us whether we recognize he's leading us or not, 577 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,459 Speaker 2: just like he did with the Apostle Paul. He repeats 578 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: himself when it came to like my writing career. It 579 00:34:07,460 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 2: was constantly a repetition, a reminder of a verse that 580 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 2: he had given me really early on. In relational aspects, 581 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,410 Speaker 2: he will repeat himself and And doing the work within ourself, 582 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,710 Speaker 2: that's what God always is. His first priority is always 583 00:34:21,950 --> 00:34:28,150 Speaker 2: our wholeness and our holiness. And sometimes, we didn't talk 584 00:34:28,190 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 2: about it, but we don't have time to talk about it. 585 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 2: But sometimes he does say, yeah, you can do A 586 00:34:33,739 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 2: or B. I'm in both. I bless both. And sometimes 587 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,439 Speaker 2: he gives us the blessing. to just move forward. But 588 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,740 Speaker 2: the closer as walking with him as best as we're 589 00:34:45,870 --> 00:34:48,549 Speaker 2: able day by day is going to make it so 590 00:34:48,590 --> 00:34:52,850 Speaker 2: that we are most pliable to him when he does lead. 591 00:34:53,230 --> 00:34:57,210 Speaker 2: So Erica, this has been such a great conversation. Before 592 00:34:57,270 --> 00:34:58,609 Speaker 2: we go, first of all, I want to thank you 593 00:34:58,820 --> 00:34:59,860 Speaker 2: for joining us. 594 00:35:00,660 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. I feel like we could talk 595 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: for five more hours. 596 00:35:04,580 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 2: I know, I know. If listeners saw our notes and 597 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 2: like the multiple notes and like, this isn't an important 598 00:35:10,860 --> 00:35:14,959 Speaker 2: topic to us at all, sarcasm, but yeah. Now, before 599 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,219 Speaker 2: we go, I want to make listeners aware of your book, 600 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,100 Speaker 2: which is a great resource for so many parents who 601 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,140 Speaker 2: are right now on their knees. longing for their children 602 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,370 Speaker 2: to come home, to come back to relationship and to 603 00:35:28,410 --> 00:35:31,830 Speaker 2: come back to Christ, any of those areas. And it's 604 00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:35,630 Speaker 2: titled Loving Your Wayward Child, a Christian guide to stand 605 00:35:35,690 --> 00:35:41,090 Speaker 2: in faith and build connection when their choices break your heart. 606 00:35:41,130 --> 00:35:43,410 Speaker 2: So here's a little from the back cover. How do 607 00:35:43,430 --> 00:35:46,439 Speaker 2: you maintain connection with a child whose choices break your heart? 608 00:35:46,500 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 2: How do you stand strong in your faith when your 609 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,219 Speaker 2: child abandons everything you've instilled in them? Bible teacher and 610 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,500 Speaker 2: author Erica Wiggenhorn asked these questions while walking the lonely 611 00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:00,060 Speaker 2: road of chasing after her prodigal child. Through hard-won lessons 612 00:36:00,140 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 2: learned in scripture and life, she emerged with some answers 613 00:36:03,140 --> 00:36:06,740 Speaker 2: in her book. You'll discover how common it is for 614 00:36:06,860 --> 00:36:09,780 Speaker 2: teens and children to walk away from their parents' values. 615 00:36:09,820 --> 00:36:11,940 Speaker 2: And I would also add to that, to go through 616 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 2: a period, of tension with their parents. That's really common 617 00:36:15,940 --> 00:36:19,299 Speaker 2: as well. And it also provides answers on how to 618 00:36:19,340 --> 00:36:22,490 Speaker 2: foster connection with your child, even when they're pulling away. 619 00:36:23,170 --> 00:36:27,730 Speaker 2: Some default reactions we have that we can have to 620 00:36:27,750 --> 00:36:30,710 Speaker 2: our children's choices and maybe their behavior and new ways 621 00:36:30,930 --> 00:36:33,629 Speaker 2: to respond. And I love this part because it's so, 622 00:36:33,690 --> 00:36:38,710 Speaker 2: so important. Practical tips for taming your emotions in the 623 00:36:38,790 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 2: heated moments. and so much more. So we will put 624 00:36:44,660 --> 00:36:47,420 Speaker 2: a link to that in the show notes. That is 625 00:36:47,460 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 2: an area anytime there's fractured relationships, that is an area 626 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,980 Speaker 2: we desperately want God's leading. And the good news is 627 00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:01,410 Speaker 2: he wants restoration and healing even more than we do. 628 00:37:01,989 --> 00:37:04,910 Speaker 2: His timeline just might be a little different and his 629 00:37:04,950 --> 00:37:07,190 Speaker 2: road to get there might be different than we expect. 630 00:37:07,950 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 2: As we close, I want to leave you with this encouragement. First, 631 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:17,430 Speaker 2: relax and trust that God is teaching you to accurately 632 00:37:17,710 --> 00:37:20,250 Speaker 2: hear his voice. And he is so, so gracious and 633 00:37:20,450 --> 00:37:23,310 Speaker 2: so patient with our mess ups. And I would say, 634 00:37:23,330 --> 00:37:25,850 Speaker 2: just keep showing up. Do your part to pursue God 635 00:37:26,310 --> 00:37:29,029 Speaker 2: and trust him to do his part to meet with 636 00:37:29,070 --> 00:37:32,029 Speaker 2: you and deepen your relationship with him. I encourage you 637 00:37:32,070 --> 00:37:34,899 Speaker 2: to share this episode with your family, with your faith community, 638 00:37:34,940 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 2: with some friends. Talk it through. This is an area where... 639 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:40,950 Speaker 2: The more you grow in this area, the more you're 640 00:37:40,969 --> 00:37:43,609 Speaker 2: going to come alive. And if you haven't already done so, 641 00:37:43,630 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 2: I encourage you to subscribe to this podcast. Coming up, 642 00:37:46,210 --> 00:37:49,589 Speaker 2: we're going to be addressing what Erica mentioned a bit 643 00:37:49,670 --> 00:37:52,720 Speaker 2: is what do you do in times of divine silence? 644 00:37:52,739 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 2: So you're going to want to catch that episode. Until 645 00:37:55,620 --> 00:37:58,140 Speaker 2: next time, may you live as one who truly has 646 00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:58,859 Speaker 2: been set free.