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Speaker 1: Welcome to Christian Parent Crazy World, the podcast that tackles

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Speaker 1: tough topics to help you be a godly parent in

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Speaker 1: an ungodly world. I am your host, Catherine Seekers, and

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Speaker 1: in today's episode, we will tackle this mightily important question.

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Speaker 1: What do you do when your spiritual heroes fall? When

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Speaker 1: the people who once inspired your faith are exposed hiding

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Speaker 1: devastating secrets revealed as Charlatan's chasing fame, money, or power

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Speaker 1: within the church. These moments don't just disappoint us, they

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Speaker 1: can deeply wound us.

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Speaker 2: Today I'm joined by a man who left the faith.

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Speaker 1: And spent fourteen years immersed in the New Age movement,

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Speaker 1: and it all began with a pastor who tried to

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Speaker 1: manipulate his sick grandmother for money. That kind of betrayal

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Speaker 1: leaves scars, and as parents, we have to wrestle with

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Speaker 1: what those scars can mean, not only for us, but

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Speaker 1: for our kids. We've all wondered if the church is

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Speaker 1: really living up to the gospel it proclaims, and if

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Speaker 1: we're forward looking parents, we realize that those wounds can

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Speaker 1: shake not only our faith, but the faith of our

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Speaker 1: kids as well, who are watching closely to see how

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Speaker 1: we respond, that's the ground we will cover in this

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Speaker 1: episode of Christian Parent Crazy World. So let's get started.

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Speaker 1: Nothing wounds our faith more deeply than discovering that someone

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Speaker 1: you once trusted in the church was abusing their position.

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Speaker 1: That's why my guest today is Clifton Payne Junior. Cliff

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Speaker 1: is a pastor, a writer, and a Bible teacher who

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Speaker 1: studied at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, and he's the

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Speaker 1: author of What the Bible Really Says about Tithing and Giving.

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Speaker 2: It's different than you think. Love that title.

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Speaker 1: Cliff is uniquely qualified for this conversation not only because

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Speaker 1: of his biblical scholarship, but because financial abuse by a

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Speaker 1: minister once drove him out of the faith for many years.

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Speaker 1: Cliff is going to help us separate manipulation from scripture

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Speaker 1: and set the record straight on what the Bible really

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Speaker 1: says about our money, about generosity, and about trust. But

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Speaker 1: before we jump in, I want to take just a

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Speaker 1: few minutes to address what might feel like the elephant

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Speaker 1: in the room, especially if you've been paying attention to

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Speaker 1: Christian news over the past few weeks. A very prominent

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Speaker 1: podcaster recently released a six hour exposed a yes six

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Speaker 1: hours on a very well known Charlatan in the charismatic

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Speaker 1: corner of Christianity. That video has already surpassed a million

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Speaker 1: views on YouTube. Last I checked, I think it was

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Speaker 1: around one point three million. It is Mike Winger's investigation

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Speaker 1: into Sean Bulls.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: While credible reports of Bulls, false prophecies and abusive tactics

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Speaker 1: have circulated for more than six years, Winger goes further.

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Speaker 1: He carefully documents evidence and indicts Bethel Church and other

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Speaker 1: charismatic leaders for failing to warn Christians and in some

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Speaker 1: cases continuing to platform Bulls even after they knew he

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Speaker 1: was a fraud. Now, Cliff and I recorded this episode

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Speaker 1: last year, and it just happens to be releasing right now,

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Speaker 1: so we don't address this specific more recent investigation. But

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Speaker 1: given how current this is, and because today's episode deals

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Speaker 1: directly with abuse of money tactics in the church carried

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Speaker 1: out by Charlatan's, I felt like it was important to

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Speaker 1: say something.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: I have listened to all six hours of Winger's investigation,

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Speaker 1: along with both of Bethel's official responses. Bethel's senior leadership

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Speaker 1: has now confessed to their errors.

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Speaker 2: And they stated that they are in a.

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Speaker 1: Process of repentance. If you're interested in the story, I

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Speaker 1: highly recommend that you check out their second response, not

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Speaker 1: the first one.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot better.

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Speaker 1: But Steve Moore, he's the online lead pastor and he

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Speaker 1: has been newly appointed as a member of Bethel's leadership team.

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Speaker 1: He's someone that Bethel is leaning on to help and

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Speaker 1: act this correction and this change within within the church

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Speaker 1: itself and their ministry. I think this is very significant.

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Speaker 1: Steve Moore thanked Mike Winger for exposing this issue for

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Speaker 1: protecting victims, and he expressed his love for Mike as

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Speaker 1: a brother in Christ. Why is that significant? Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: some are really criticizing Winger for taking this story public.

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Speaker 1: They argue that correction should come from within Bethel itself,

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Speaker 1: and on that point, I wholeheartedly.

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Speaker 2: Agree it should have.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, Mike Winger agrees with that. He

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Speaker 1: collected this evidence for over a year and he personally

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Speaker 1: implored Bethel's leaders to address it within their organization. He

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Speaker 1: did not want to be a whistleblower. He even demonetized

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Speaker 1: the videos. He isn't making a dime from it, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are impugning his motives here, and

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Speaker 1: I think if you listen to the videos, I think

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Speaker 1: you'll see that he is very humbly bringing this to them.

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Speaker 1: He didn't want to do this. It should have been

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Speaker 1: handled in the house, and we all agree it would

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Speaker 1: have been far better for Bethel and for the victims

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Speaker 1: and for the Body of Christ if it had been.

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Speaker 2: But it wasn't. And there's a lesson for.

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Speaker 1: All of us in that, a very sober lesson that is.

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Speaker 2: This God always allows.

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Speaker 1: Time for self correction. But when we refuse to act,

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Speaker 1: and when leaders refuse to act, he will intervene. And

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Speaker 1: when he does, it will be far more public and

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Speaker 1: far more painful. A ministry like Bethel has international reach.

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Speaker 1: When leaders fail to rebuke someone they helped to introduce

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Speaker 1: to the world, the harm isn't just local, it is global,

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Speaker 1: and in this case, that has been a global harm

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Speaker 1: to so many people. Now in today's episode, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: hear real audio clips of financial abuse and manipulation, largely

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Speaker 1: from prosperity ministers with international platforms. Cliff and I also

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Speaker 1: touch on several well known international sexual scandals that have

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Speaker 1: impacted us personally, and just to be clear, hypocrisy and

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Speaker 1: Charlatan's are not confined to one theological stream. Sadly, this

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Speaker 1: is a problem that exists across the entire church. But

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Speaker 1: some of you may ask, why talk about it? Why

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Speaker 1: expose it? Are you not doing more damage than good?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 1: I love what Tim Barnett of Stand to Reason says

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Speaker 1: about this. He puts it very succinctly. He says, public

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Speaker 1: harm requires public correction, and Scripture agrees with that. First Timothy,

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Speaker 1: Chapter five, verses nineteen through twenty says, quote, do not

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Speaker 1: entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought

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Speaker 1: by two or three witnesses. But those elders who are sinning,

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Speaker 1: you are to reprove before everyone so that others may

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Speaker 1: take warning. End quote. In many parts of the church

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Speaker 1: we've become very good at practicing the first half of

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Speaker 1: that passage of not accusing, but we've ignored the second

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Speaker 1: half where it tells us to reprove those who sin

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Speaker 1: before everyone. Now, if it's a local issue in your

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Speaker 1: local body, it has to be dealt with locally, But

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Speaker 1: these international ministries have to be dealt with internationally, because biblically,

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Speaker 1: we are required to publicly confront those who harm the

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Speaker 1: body of Christ. And the larger the platform, the greater

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Speaker 1: the damage, and therefore the greater and more public the

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Speaker 1: correction my heart here is not to impugne, it is

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Speaker 1: to cleanse, and it is to protect parents. We have

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Speaker 1: got to realize what's at stake here. These Charlatans don't

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Speaker 1: just damage the church's credibility. They impugne the name of

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Speaker 1: Christ himself, and they wound the faith of our children

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Speaker 1: who are watching closely. We know that hypocrisy is one

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Speaker 1: of the biggest reasons that young people are leaving the

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Speaker 1: church now. Wolves in sheep's clothing have always existed, and

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Speaker 1: sadly they always will. But it is our responsibility as parents,

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Speaker 1: as the shepherds of our homes, to name them, to

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Speaker 1: expose them, and to protect our children, to protect the flock.

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Speaker 2: So with that said, let's jump.

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Speaker 1: Right in, Cliff, welcome back to Christian Parent Crazy World.

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Speaker 2: It's so wonderful to have you back.

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Speaker 3: It's great to be here. I appreciate being on the show.

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Speaker 1: So listeners, we have just wrapped up what I think

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Speaker 1: it's going on and hour and fifteen minutes of freak conversation.

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Speaker 2: We had to cut off.

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Speaker 1: We were covering like so many things, and your testimony

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Speaker 1: is just fascinating, Cliff, fascinating, and I love all the

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Speaker 1: things we talked about. I think I don't know if

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Speaker 1: God's just pushing me in a certain direction. We've been

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Speaker 1: talking a lot about charismatic church giftings that the Lord

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Speaker 1: has for the church, our views on that, but our

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Speaker 1: pre conversation went into eschatology, replacement theology, the place of.

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Speaker 2: Israel and it all.

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Speaker 1: We can talk about any number of topics, but what

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Speaker 1: we're here to talk about today is a book that

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Speaker 1: you gave me. You get the award, Cliff for the

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Speaker 1: longest wait time to have you on the show. But

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Speaker 1: I think you gave me this book last year, did you.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember exactly what it was a.

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Speaker 3: Lot very earlier in this year. The book. The book

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Speaker 3: came out in January. I gave you a copy right

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Speaker 3: after it came out.

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Speaker 1: Yet, and I told you, honestly, I said, it's going

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Speaker 1: to take me a little while because I do like

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Speaker 1: when I have a guest on the show, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to just skim it.

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Speaker 2: Really want to spend some time in the book and.

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Speaker 1: Really investigate and be able to formulate a lot of

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Speaker 1: thoughts on it and give you a good solid interview.

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Speaker 1: So here we are what we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: right now. There were a couple of instances in your

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Speaker 1: life that really led to an exodus.

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Speaker 2: You left the.

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Speaker 1: Faith for what was it, fourteen years? And they these

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Speaker 1: were financial in nature. And I want to hone in

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Speaker 1: on this because I think a lot of people get

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Speaker 1: wounded in the church in this area, because there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of Charlatans out there, and there are people

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Speaker 1: that have abusive money tactics within the church that happened

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Speaker 1: to you and it led you away from the faith.

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Speaker 1: So let's just briefly recount those and I have some

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Speaker 1: examples here of situations in my own life where this

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Speaker 1: has happened and things that I've encountered. But first, it

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Speaker 1: started with your grandmother, didn't it.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's a bit ironic that this book is about

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Speaker 3: the subject of titheing in giving, because when I was

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Speaker 3: fifteen years old, my grandmother lived with us. My grandmother

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Speaker 3: had had multiple strokes and she wasn't able to, I

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Speaker 3: mean barely walk. My mother would have to hold her

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Speaker 3: to get her to walk from the bedroom to the

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Speaker 3: living room, and she hadn't been in church in years

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Speaker 3: because she wouldn't physically able to actually even go. And

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Speaker 3: we had a new pastor show up to our church,

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Speaker 3: and because my grandmother was the oldest member of the church,

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Speaker 3: he paid her a visit and presented her with a

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Speaker 3: bill for back tithes. Now, my grandmother didn't understand what

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Speaker 3: was going on. Only thing she understood was that she

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Speaker 3: had done something wrong and she owed the church a

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Speaker 3: lot of money. She got very, very upset, to the

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Speaker 3: point that later in that day we had to take

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Speaker 3: her to the hospital. They had to give her a

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Speaker 3: sedative to calm her down because she was so distraught.

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Speaker 3: My father came in while this was going on, discovered

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Speaker 3: what was going on, escorted the pastor out, and basically

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Speaker 3: told him if he ever came back again, he chewed him.

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Speaker 3: And the pastor told my dad said, well, the church

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Speaker 3: is a big business and I'm going to run it

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Speaker 3: like one now. One of the reviewers of my book

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Speaker 3: made the comment that I addressed the elephant in the

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Speaker 3: room that so many people feel like all the church

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Speaker 3: wants is your money. All these ministries wants your money.

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Speaker 3: This is all just a scheme to build people out,

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Speaker 3: you know, emotionally starved people or weak people come out

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Speaker 3: of their money. And that's how a lot of people

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Speaker 3: just view the church ministries, Christian ministries, that all these things,

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Speaker 3: it's just a it's a money laundering scheme to draw

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Speaker 3: on the emotions, the heart strengths of people. You get

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Speaker 3: them to give money for a few individuals on personal wealth, okay,

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Speaker 3: And there probably are some people who do that, and

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Speaker 3: this kind of stuff it wounds people. Many years later,

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Speaker 3: when I was a student at Hebrew University in Jerusalem,

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Speaker 3: I had to return because when it was time to

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Speaker 3: renew my student visa that the Jim Baker scandal had happened,

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Speaker 3: that we'd talked about, and you mentioned your family's family

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Speaker 3: been and members of PTO. But people quit giving to churches,

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Speaker 3: they quit giving to support ministries, they quit giving the students.

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Speaker 3: I was. I had nothing to do with PTO, not

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Speaker 3: at all. But people just quit giving because here's somebody

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Speaker 3: they see where somebody misused or abused. This is not

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Speaker 3: anything new, This goes back. Jesus had a lot of

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Speaker 3: criticism for the Temple authorities. The Temple authorities required that

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Speaker 3: the temple tax, which was required of all Jews from

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Speaker 3: all over the world. They required it to be paid

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Speaker 3: in the Tyrian shekel, which the coins that are on

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Speaker 3: my book. Here just in the middle of here, this

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Speaker 3: is the Jerusalem Tyrian shekel. Now why did they require

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Speaker 3: that coin? The Roman dinaris, which is this other coin

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Speaker 3: up here at the time of Jesus, was anywhere between

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Speaker 3: eighty eight to maybe ninety two percent silver. The Tyrian

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Speaker 3: shuckle was ninety nine percent pure silver. It was all

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Speaker 3: about the money. Yes, here's an amazing thing about it.

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Speaker 3: There is an image on this coinage. And when I

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Speaker 3: ask people who that is, they think, well, it's a

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Speaker 3: Caesar or somebody like that. No, his name's Malquat. Malquat

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Speaker 3: was the name of the Phoenician god Bail. High priest

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Speaker 3: requires the temple tax to be paid in coinage, burying

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Speaker 3: the image of Bail. Oh wow, because it was all

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Speaker 3: about the money. Yes, okay, that's not a new concept. No, no,

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Speaker 3: Paul and Philippian says, you know, some preach Christ in pretense,

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Speaker 3: some in sincerity. I rejoiced, nonetheless, of Christ has preached.

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Speaker 3: And for example, I given an example if someone came

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Speaker 3: knocked on your door, the Little Western Union messenger and said, hey,

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Speaker 3: I've got good news. You've got a relative you didn't

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Speaker 3: know about died and left you twenty million dollars. That

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Speaker 3: evening on five o'clock news, you see this Western Union

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Speaker 3: messenger arrested for child pornography. He's arrested for that. He's

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Speaker 3: arrested for murder, kidnapping, all kinds of horrible things. So

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Speaker 3: you would you wouldn't take the twenty million And people,

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Speaker 3: what do you mean, Well, the messenger just brought you

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Speaker 3: a message. The messenger can be a total scoundrel, messenger

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Speaker 3: can be totally corrupt, but the message he brought you

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Speaker 3: was good news. So a complete charlatan can preach the gospel.

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Speaker 3: There was an actor by the name of mar Joe Goinner.

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Speaker 3: He was a child evangelist, famous all over the world.

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Speaker 3: He preached Phillips stadiums and had people people walked out

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Speaker 3: of wheelchairs and stuff like that. It was all an act.

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Speaker 3: His parents should put him up to it. They made

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Speaker 3: millions of dollars, and at age sixteen, they took the

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Speaker 3: money and left him. He wanted to be an actor,

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Speaker 3: so he went back out as a young evangelist again,

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Speaker 3: started preaching for himself, but he filmed the whole thing.

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Speaker 3: He filmed them backstage laughing and counting the money and

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Speaker 3: going on and on. So he eventually released that as

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Speaker 3: a documentary movie. Wow show people that it was all

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Speaker 3: It was just a charlatan, that it was a show.

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Speaker 3: But the thing he could never account for was how

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Speaker 3: did the people walk out of wheelchairs? People could have

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Speaker 3: given their life though he was a total charlatan. People

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Speaker 3: could have given their life to the Lord which changed

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Speaker 3: their life because the true message came from God, even

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Speaker 3: though the messenger was a charlatan.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's a hard It's a hard thing to

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Speaker 1: understand how God can actually use unholy vessels for his purpose, says,

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Speaker 1: but it is deeply wounding. Like you said, it was

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Speaker 1: a large part of your exodus from the faith, and

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Speaker 1: you spent you said, how many years apart from God

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Speaker 1: after that?

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Speaker 3: Because fourteen years I wandered into the New Age because

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Speaker 3: I was looking for answers and I was looking for

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Speaker 3: I was looking for true spirituality. I was looking aside

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Speaker 3: and I didn't see God into church. I just saw

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Speaker 3: it was all about money, which so many people that's

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Speaker 3: all they think the church is about, is about money.

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Speaker 3: That thought, all they think, all that ministries are about

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Speaker 3: is money. And whenever these events happened. Because human beings

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Speaker 3: are fallible, and very oftentimes somebody that can be a

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Speaker 3: sincere ministry, he can be a sincere believer, but he

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Speaker 3: gets himself into trouble because he doesn't guard his heart

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Speaker 3: and his mind. One of the things I really appreciate

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Speaker 3: about Billy Graham. Billy Graham had a hard and fast rule.

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Speaker 3: He would never be in a room, or in a car,

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Speaker 3: or in the elevator by himself with another one other

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Speaker 3: than his wife, so there could never be there was

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Speaker 3: always had to be other people around to be a

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Speaker 3: witness that he lived with impeccable integrity, that he never

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Speaker 3: did anything inappropriate, nothing to mar the gospel, because he

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Speaker 3: knew how easily that that could happen, and how people

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Speaker 3: can fall into temptation. And you know, like the jim

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Speaker 3: Baker scandal, when all that happened, Jimmy when his when

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Speaker 3: his fall happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we lived in Louisiana when that happened. Of course, Jimmy,

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Swaggert was down there. I remember all of that,

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Speaker 1: And just for a frame of reference, PTL was an

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Speaker 1: acronym for Praise the Lord. It was a ministry by

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Speaker 1: Jim and Tammy fay Baker back in I guess it

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Speaker 1: did it short in the seventies, was it in the seventies,

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Speaker 1: and then it went into the eighties.

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Speaker 3: Jim and Tammy were on the Pat Robertson Okay, they

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Speaker 3: worked with Pat Robertson and his network, and then they

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Speaker 3: went out on their own and formed the Praise.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was Jerry.

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Speaker 1: Wasn't Jerry Fallwell though I know they were, they were

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Speaker 1: associated with him as I I didn't know the association

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Speaker 1: with Pat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Jim and Tammy were on the Christian Broadcasting Network

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Speaker 3: with Pat Robertson. They were on his show, on his program.

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Speaker 1: I thought that was later we were over at CBN two.

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Speaker 1: I went to Regent University, which came out of CBN,

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Speaker 1: which there's issues there. So it's this was a big

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Speaker 1: money making scheme where they were selling lifetime memberships to

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Speaker 1: this Christian paradise in Charlotte, North Carolina, where they had

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Speaker 1: campgrounds and then they had this hotel in this whole

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Speaker 1: shopping area and they built a water park and you

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Speaker 1: could you know, it was kind of like a timeshare

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Speaker 1: thing where you could book your time every year to

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Speaker 1: come up.

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Speaker 2: And we went several years.

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Speaker 3: And they over sold it.

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Speaker 2: They way over sold it, and so it all ended

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Speaker 2: up caving.

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Speaker 1: And of course then there was the sexual indiscretion of

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Speaker 1: Jim Baker, and he went to prison for that.

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Speaker 2: He went to prison. He ended up getting divorced.

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Speaker 1: And many people would say that he has been restored, rehabilitated,

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Speaker 1: although I saw him on TV the other day saying

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Speaker 1: there was going to be like a million He needed

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Speaker 1: a million dollars to keep his ministry afloat. So I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but I mean, all of this stuff does

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Speaker 1: a lot to discredit the gospel.

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Speaker 3: Just personal personal opinion. I think they started out as

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Speaker 3: genuine sincere believers.

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Speaker 2: I think so.

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Speaker 3: But when they became so successful in ministry, everything became

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Speaker 3: about the ministry. It became priving that, and so they

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Speaker 3: wound up spending less and less time with the Lord.

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Speaker 3: Then Charlatan's came in. There was a man made named

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Speaker 3: John Wesley Fletcher who was the one who came in

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Speaker 3: and introduced Jessica Han to Jim Baker. John Wesley Fletcher

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Speaker 3: came to Birmingham Alabama too. I went to a church

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Speaker 3: service there and when he was ministering, I had this

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Speaker 3: sick feeling in my stomach, and I finally realized that it

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Speaker 3: was Holy Spirit telling me the man was a Charlatan.

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Speaker 3: This was grieving the Holy Spirit. But people were buying

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Speaker 3: it because he said the right things. He knew, he

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Speaker 3: knew how to present the message, he knew how to

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Speaker 3: say the right things, but his heart was not there.

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Speaker 3: His heart was in it for the money, for the

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Speaker 3: fame and people that can be sincere with the Lord.

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Speaker 3: But when you get far, you don't stay close to

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Speaker 3: the Lord, and everything becomes about the ministry. Well, we've

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Speaker 3: got to do this because we've got to keep the

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Speaker 3: ministry going, and so we've got to generate all this money.

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Speaker 3: And so then it's one step here, it's one step here,

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Speaker 3: and the next thing you.

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Speaker 2: Know, you're so far away.

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Speaker 3: You're you're so far away, and now you're actually out

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Speaker 3: here into heresy. And it's a sad thing, but it's

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Speaker 3: it's a warning to all of us. Paul wrote, examine

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Speaker 3: yourself to.

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Speaker 4: See if you're walking into faith. Yes, don't don't take

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Speaker 4: things for granted. Just make sure you're walking with the Lord.

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Speaker 4: That's why we need the scriptures. The scriptures are are

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Speaker 4: it's what we judge by is how we judge ourselves.

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Speaker 4: The scripture promises if we judge ourselves, will not be judged.

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Speaker 3: So we have to make sure that we're keeping in

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Speaker 3: line and being that just because yes, from biblical times

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Speaker 3: until now when you had Ahab and Jezebel and all

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Speaker 3: of the various priests and king's Eli's sons, yes, Eli

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Speaker 3: sons that were in it for the money, right, Samuel's

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Speaker 3: sons that also misbehave. You have people that get into

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Speaker 3: ministry and then the next thing you know, they're having

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Speaker 3: all these sexual liaisons and stuff, and then and then

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Speaker 3: they'll write it off as well, you know, yeah, but

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Speaker 3: you know everybody sins and you know, right, and and

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Speaker 3: that's the way people write this stuff off instead of

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Speaker 3: having sincere like, Look, the thing is, we need to

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Speaker 3: be living for the Lord. We need to be seeking

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Speaker 3: purity because without purity, no one will see the Lord.

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Speaker 1: And people stop being able to see it. It becomes

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Speaker 1: this good old boy network where they're propping one another up.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned who was at Fletcher.

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Speaker 1: You said that you were at so I was not

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Speaker 1: many years ago, sitting in a service. You and I

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Speaker 1: go to the same church. Now, I went to a

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Speaker 1: different church years ago. Robert Morris came and preached there.

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Speaker 1: Who I can remember, he got up in the pulpit.

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Speaker 2: He was an overseer of the church.

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Speaker 1: It was a huge megachurch, overseer of the church. And

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Speaker 1: he first thing out of his mouth. You know a

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Speaker 1: lot of pastors like to do jokes to start off

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Speaker 1: their sermons. He told a joke. I can't remember what

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Speaker 1: it was. I'm sure it's been scrubbed from their website now,

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Speaker 1: but he told a joke about his wife that was

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Speaker 1: really it was just degrading. It was degrading. I remember

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Speaker 1: looking at my husband going what in the world, and

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Speaker 1: I just he visited there a number of times while

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Speaker 1: we were there, and of course I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it's been it's been.

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Speaker 2: Over a year now.

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Speaker 1: He was outed as as early in his ministry, in

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Speaker 1: his early twenties, had been a pedophile. He sexually molested

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Speaker 1: a twelve year old girl and continued to do so

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Speaker 1: for four years, and the church found out about it. Well,

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Speaker 1: when the father of the young girl, I want to say,

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Speaker 1: it's Cindy clemensher. I'm very bad with recalling names, but

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Speaker 1: she finally it came.

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Speaker 2: Out to her father, and he reported it to the church,

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Speaker 2: and the church put.

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Speaker 1: Him through a and I will use air quotes here

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Speaker 1: restoration process, and they ended up within a couple of

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Speaker 1: years he was fully restored in an older in the church,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, what is going on? And then of

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Speaker 1: course he went on to be pastor of Gateway Church

435
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: megachurch down in Texas, and finally it came out. Cindy

436
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: came out with the story of what actually happened. And

437
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 1: over the years he had described her as a seductress

438
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: to people. He had said, yes, there was a there

439
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: was a time I was unfaithful to my wife and

440
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: described this little girl and a twelve year old girl

441
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 1: and pink pajamas. Was actually the first instance happened. I

442
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: believe it was Christmas Eve. He was a traveling minister

443
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 1: who was staying in the house of Cindy's father and

444
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,679
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted this young girl and continued to do so

445
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: for four years every time he would come to their house.

446
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: I believe it happened in Oklahoma, whereas Robert Morris was

447
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 1: down in Texas. But you see the church covering it up,

448
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: covering it up, covering it up. And now finally she

449
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: came forward with her story, and their charges.

450
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: Pressed against this.

451
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 1: And let me just say this Toothcliff, I'd never had

452
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: this happen in our show before. Sometimes I do solo episodes.

453
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: I recorded two episodes on that. I was so upset

454
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: because he this happened at a church I used to attend.

455
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: I mean, he was an overseer of that church. But

456
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: all of these pastors were networked together. I don't know

457
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: how much the pastor, I don't want to in any way,

458
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: shape or form, suggests that the pastor of the church

459
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: we went to at that time new I don't know

460
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: he might have, but I can tell you this out

461
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: in Denver, Colorado as a New Life church. Anyways, there

462
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: was a pastor that's already they concluded that he knew

463
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: about this.

464
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: He knew about this because he used to serve under

465
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 2: Robert Morris, and they didn't do anything.

466
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 1: They had a known pedophile in ministry, and you're like,

467
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,959
Speaker 1: how does that happen? And so I recorded two episodes,

468
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 1: well I say two episodes. It was one episode. I

469
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: recorded it last year and I'm like, I can't air this.

470
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: I was livid. I was so hot and angry.

471
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: It was righteous indignation, but I'm like, I can't air this,

472
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: and I just didn't have a piece about it. I

473
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: re recorded the episode. Listen to that one. I'm like,

474
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: I can't air that one either. I was so upset

475
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: and angry because of how it impugned the name of God.

476
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: It does to the church, and still even still, the

477
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,479
Speaker 1: problem is this will happen in church. Is just like

478
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: they lift up a rug, they brush it under there

479
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 1: and they try to, you know, mush it down, and

480
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: we're just not even going to address this.

481
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 3: And it's happened in all denominations. It's happened in the

482
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 3: Catholic Church.

483
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 2: Catholic Church, we're.

484
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 3: Pedophiles of young boys and things of this nature. Yep,

485
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 3: this is not something new. It's gone on, It's gone

486
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 3: on for a long time. But it brings disrepute on

487
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: the name of the Lord. It blasphems the name of

488
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 3: the Lord. Basically, it drives a lot of people away

489
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 3: because people just see these and I don't think it's

490
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 3: a lot of incidents, but people see them and they

491
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 3: equate that with everything in the church. It's all just

492
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 3: a game. It's all made up. It's all just a

493
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 3: scam to get your money.

494
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 2: They're all abusive.

495
00:28:58,040 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: And I mean, well, of course we all know the

496
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: right Zachariah scandal that happened.

497
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: He was one of the wisest, the wise, the most brilliant.

498
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: We used him and our apologetics curriculums, the one that

499
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: I was going to at Colorado Christian University. He was

500
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: throughout their curriculum, our classical Christian curriculum. Robbie Zachariah. I've

501
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: quoted him before in articles that I've written. I know

502
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: he was so wise, and yet it was uncovered after

503
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: his death that he had long standing history of sexual

504
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: abuse of women. And like you said, it's across the

505
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: board from Catholic to Charismatic and everything in between. Steve

506
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: Lawson recently reformed minister so he would be more mainline Christianity.

507
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: In his seventies had an ongoing affair with a woman

508
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: in her twenties. And by the way, I just want

509
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: this to be clearly stated. When someone in ministry, a

510
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: minister in that level, is having a sexual relationship with

511
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: someone who is under them in the faith, that's spiritual abuse,

512
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: not just sexual abuse is but when you are a shepherd,

513
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: you are to guard the sheep jealously. You are not

514
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: to abuse them. And when they're looking up to you

515
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,959
Speaker 1: as a shepherd, as a spiritual authority, that is a

516
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: form of spiritual abuse, and it's egregious. It grieves the

517
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: heart of God, it impugned his name, and it hurts

518
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: people to the point where so many people leave the

519
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: faith because of that, because they see, well, why would

520
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: I want to be part of an organization like that.

521
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: They're operating just like the world.

522
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so important for people to realize we're called

523
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 3: to be followers of Jesus, not the followers of a

524
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 3: certain ministry. If we're only following a man, Paul said,

525
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 3: follow me as I follow Christ. But if someone is

526
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 3: leading a life that's not honoring and following Christ, it's

527
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 3: so detrimental and people don't realize they have to not

528
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 3: look at the fallen minister. They have to look at

529
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 3: the Lord himself and to make sure that our hearts

530
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 3: are focused upon him. That's why it's important to know

531
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 3: God's word, yes, and to follow what his teachings are,

532
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 3: what he has for us and not be misled or

533
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 3: taken off the path because of someone's human failure.

534
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: Yes, that's so true. You gave an example last time

535
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: of someone who was going to give you a word

536
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: from the Lord for ninety nine dollars. But hey, if

537
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: you send one hundred and ninety nine dollars, you're going

538
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: to get a.

539
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: Special word of the Lord.

540
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: And when I was doing some research into this episode,

541
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: this concept of what they call seed money kept coming up.

542
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 2: Seed money. If you plant this seed of money, this gift,

543
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: this donation to us, then we're going to multiply that.

544
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to play some clips here, Cliff that I

545
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: want our listeners to hear, because you may have heard

546
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, and I want to be I

547
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: think we're both going to be very very emphatically on

548
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: the record of saying this is not biblical. But this

549
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: concept of seed money, listen to this. But this concept

550
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: of seed money, listen to this.

551
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 5: The size of your seed will determine the size of

552
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 5: your harvest. I don't understand why, but there's something happens

553
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 5: at a level where people step into faith and give

554
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 5: a thousand dollars that don't happen at other levels.

555
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: I don't even know what to say to that.

556
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,719
Speaker 1: That was a televangelist, by the way, his name is

557
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: James Payne. And for just one thousand dollars, you can

558
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: purchase a seed that will bring a huge harvest into

559
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: your life. That's it's mind boggling. Here's another televangelist. He's

560
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,959
Speaker 1: more of a bargain seed seller. His name is Todd Koons.

561
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: Check him out.

562
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 3: You're going to have a breakthrough through this two hundred

563
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 3: and seventy three dollars seed. Yeah.

564
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

565
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: And here's another one, yet another televangelist by the name.

566
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: Of Henry Fernandez. He has come up the anti again.

567
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: He's going to give you a big ticket price.

568
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 6: All you've got is one thousand dollars.

569
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 7: Listen, that's not enough money anyway to buy the house

570
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 7: you're trying to get in the apartment.

571
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 3: You trying to buy the house. That's not enough money anyway.

572
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 6: You get to that phone and you put that seat

573
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 6: in the ground and watch God work it out.

574
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: What are they using this money for, Cliff, This is

575
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: what is so incredible.

576
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: Here is what they're using the money for.

577
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: Pastor Kreflo Dollar of the World Changers Church International, facing

578
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: harsh criticism after starting a fundraising campaign.

579
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 2: To buy this sixty five million dollar luxury private jet.

580
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 3: If I want to.

581
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: Believe God for sixty five million dollar, frame cannot stop me.

582
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

583
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, And Krufflo Dollar is not alone in doing serious

584
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: fundraising in order to buy a private jet. Here is

585
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: another televangelist by the name of Mike Murdoch doing the

586
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: exact same thing.

587
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 7: I had enough money to buy a beautiful cess of

588
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 7: citation jet cash. And since there's so much jealousy in

589
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 7: this room tonight that I can feel over this, a

590
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,240
Speaker 7: few weeks later, I bought another one worth three times

591
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 7: what that one was cash. Act happy over my blessing, folks.

592
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so we're supposed to act happy over Mike Murdoch's blessing.

593
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: But how is he actually encouraging people to purchase these seeds,

594
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: these thousand dollars seeds, in order for him to be

595
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 1: able to purchase these jets? Cliff, this blew my mind.

596
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 6: I have a feeling that somebody that won't say credit

597
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 6: card that wiped out, that if you'll use your faith

598
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 6: as you sow as you sold the thousand on a

599
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 6: credit card, as you use your faith.

600
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 3: As you use your faith.

601
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 7: God's going to wipe out your credit card and deadness.

602
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: I'm aghast, I'm shocked. Send in one thousand dollars in

603
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 2: God will bless you. And let me tell you, I

604
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: listened to like.

605
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: An hour long episode with Mike Murdoch. There was not

606
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: a word, not one single word about what they were

607
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: doing with the money. I mean, come on, at least

608
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 1: throw up a picture of some hungry kids and claim

609
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 1: that your feednum or throw up need for medical supplies.

610
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: Did a well, show me something that says that you're

611
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: actually going to use this for some sort of good. No,

612
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: it's this concept of seed money, is that somehow you

613
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: just send it to this prosperity teacher and you're gonna

614
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: get blessed. You're going to get your credit card debt

615
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: wiped out. God is going to use it to do

616
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: something powerful in your life. And they're not showing one

617
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: good thing that they're doing with it. This is a

618
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: money making scam, isn't it.

619
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 3: Well let me say something here. Sometimes the reason a

620
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 3: scam or something false is because it can be based

621
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 3: upon something that there is a truth there. Oh that's good, yeah,

622
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 3: but it's a truth that becomes abused.

623
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, good, good, good.

624
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 3: For example, in the Bible, there are times when it

625
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 3: says Abraham sewed seed in a famine and reaped one

626
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 3: hundredfold return. Oh yeah, there are examples in scripture of

627
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:57,959
Speaker 3: someone trusting God that you're placing, you're planning a seed

628
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 3: of some kind, whether it be financial or where it

629
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 3: be an act of service or whatever, that that causes

630
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 3: things to grow and blossom. And see the prosperity message.

631
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 3: John said, but above all things, I pray that you

632
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 3: may prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers.

633
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,760
Speaker 3: The problem is people have equated prosperity with having millions

634
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 3: of dollars. Prosperity is having what you need to have

635
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 3: to fulfill what God's called you to do.

636
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: Thank you good. Yes, that's a great definition.

637
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 3: For example, I know I've got friends that were ministers

638
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 3: in Africa. Doctor Lovick used to teach the Africans to

639
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 3: times and they kind of just like in the Bible,

640
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 3: because that's all they had, chickens, eggs, you know, produced grain, whatever.

641
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 3: And there was a day when the locusts were coming,

642
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 3: and the chief came running to doctor Lovic and says,

643
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 3: come come come. We've got to pray. And doctor Lope says, well,

644
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: the locals are coming. We had to board everything up.

645
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 3: He says, doctor Lovick, you told me that God promised

646
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 3: if I tithed, he would rebuke the devour for my sake.

647
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 3: He said, God is his witness. He said, what could

648
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 3: I do? So that's what I taught him. That's how

649
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 3: the Bible.

650
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 6: Uh.

651
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 2: Oh, well, you got to put it into practice what

652
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:17,760
Speaker 2: you're preaching.

653
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 3: He said. We went to the chiefs fields instead, at

654
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 3: those fields, and we said we rebuked the devour and

655
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 3: the name of the Lord because this chief is a tither.

656
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 3: He said, God is his witness. The locus ate up

657
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 3: to the chief fields, ate around the chief fields and

658
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 3: started eating on the other side of the chief fields

659
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 3: and did not touch one plant in the chief fields. Wow,

660
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 3: but the thing is something that can be true, can

661
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 3: be used to manipulate people.

662
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: Thank you for clarifying that, because I think we get

663
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,760
Speaker 1: so angry when we hear these examples.

664
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 2: I know I do.

665
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: I get so angry to hear people being manipulated, particularly

666
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 1: people who may be shut in, people who may be elderly,

667
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: and they're they're watching these kinds of teleevangelists. They're their friend,

668
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 1: they're to be trusted. And the reason why it's successful

669
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: is because there is, like you said, a concept of

670
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: seed money in scripture, and we see Abraham using that

671
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 1: and God blessing him.

672
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 2: But it's not It was never manipulated.

673
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: By a minister in such a way to fleece people

674
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: out of of what little bit they have. But at

675
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: the same time, these concepts, these biblical concepts, can be

676
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 1: perverted and corrupted in ways that impugne the gospel. And

677
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: that's what's happening with those seed money kind of messages. Yes,

678
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: there is a concept of seed money in scripture, but

679
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: getting on a television show and enticing someone with some

680
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: promise of having all their credit card debt wiped out

681
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,439
Speaker 1: if they only put yet another thousand dollars onto their

682
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: credit card money they don't even have. They're spending money

683
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,919
Speaker 1: they haven't they don't have, haven't earned a high exorbitant

684
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: interest rates in order to have this.

685
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 2: Blessing come down from God. That is Charlatan behavior.

686
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 3: In my opinion, I've seen that, I've seen manipulation used.

687
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 3: One of the things Paul said in speaking to the Corinthians,

688
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,800
Speaker 3: let every man give as he purposes in his heart,

689
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 3: willingly and not under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

690
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 3: Paul also told the Gentile Church that they were debtors,

691
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 3: and to the Jews as he was collecting money for

692
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 3: the poor in Jerusalem, he said, as they have sewed

693
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 3: among you their spiritual things, you should sew among them

694
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 3: their material things. It's just like the priest and levites.

695
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 3: Their job was to work full time for God. They

696
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 3: did not have an inheritance in the land, so the

697
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 3: rest of people were supposed to take of a portion

698
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 3: of their income to support the priest so they could

699
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 3: serve full time in ministry. That's very valid, But then

700
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 3: those who are in ministry can sometimes use these true principles, okay,

701
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 3: to manipulate people and to put pressure upon them to

702
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 3: sometimes give when they don't have it. Now, if it's God,

703
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,439
Speaker 3: if it's the Holy Spirit putting pressure on you to give,

704
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 3: like God says, give to whatever this cause is. And

705
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,800
Speaker 3: it's more, it's like it's all I got left, it's

706
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 3: all I got left. But you're in that moment, you're

707
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 3: trusting God. You're putting him first place, even if I

708
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 3: have nothing I'm going to put God first place. God

709
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 3: can take that and then multiply that in ways that

710
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 3: breaks change, breaks bondage, and can bring even a financial

711
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 3: return that's far greater. So I think there's real true

712
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 3: principles here. But there's also the danger of manipulating people

713
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,399
Speaker 3: just to get them to give beyond their means. Paul says,

714
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 3: I don't mean that you should be impoverished just to

715
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:09,479
Speaker 3: give to someone else, but there can be that point.

716
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 3: There can be that time when if it's the Holy

717
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 3: Spirit prompting you to give, not just a sermon from

718
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 3: or Like I heard a guy one time, I actually

719
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 3: witnessed this was telling, Oh, there's somebody out there that

720
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 3: your child, your child's and such need, and if you

721
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 3: just gave a thousand dollars, you're going to get the

722
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 3: answer to your prayer. Oh well, I watched this lady

723
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 3: that I knew that if she for her to give

724
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 3: a thousand dollars would be virtually everything she had. And

725
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 3: she came up and gave it, and I knew that

726
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 3: guy was manipulating. He was manipulating someone's heartfelt need for money.

727
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: Yes, what parent doesn't have a child in need? Like

728
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: we all have a child in need, and this generic

729
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: speaking out of that kind of instance breeks of manipulation.

730
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: But I love the way you put it when the

731
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit may challenge us, may

732
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: test us, may bring us to a point where he

733
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: is asking for something, and it's a step of faith

734
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 1: to dare I use the same terminology plant that seed

735
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: to seed of faith, and God can use it to

736
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 1: bring blessing into our lives as well.

737
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 3: I'll give you an example of something that happened in

738
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 3: my own life. Once I was in a meeting, a

739
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 3: revival meeting, and they were taking up an offering, and

740
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,240
Speaker 3: I didn't have anything to give, but I really felt

741
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 3: that I needed to give something. And I had a

742
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 3: watch that was worth probably two three hundred dollars, you know,

743
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 3: and I just the only thing I knew to do,

744
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 3: and it just I just felt in my heart. I

745
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 3: took the watch off and I put it and offering

746
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 3: plate when it came by. Several years after that, I

747
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 3: had a client that came up to me and says,

748
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 3: I got something I want to give you. He gave

749
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 3: me a watch worth over thirty five hundred dollars.

750
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 2: Wow, ten times, I.

751
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 3: Mean so yeah, I didn't give the watch just to

752
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 3: get a better watch. I gave the watch because my

753
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 3: heart was to give something. It's the only thing I had.

754
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 3: I had no money, The only thing I had of

755
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 3: value was this watch, and I gave the last thing

756
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 3: I had. But the Lord returned it to me multiplied. Yes,

757
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 3: you know, so I remember that because I didn't seek

758
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 3: that out. It just it just came. So all of

759
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 3: the Word of Faith movement, all of the Prosperity movement,

760
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 3: is not total garbage or Scharlerton, but there's been so

761
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 3: much used. For example, years ago, when I first came

762
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,439
Speaker 3: back to faith, I turned on the TV one morning.

763
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 3: I was listening to Kenneth Copan. He was the first

764
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 3: minister I'd ever heard in my entire life, said you

765
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,240
Speaker 3: could believe the Bible, you can believe God to answer prayer.

766
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 3: Because I grew up in a church that I mean, yeah,

767
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 3: we prayed because that's what you do, but nobody really

768
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 3: expected anything to happen, you know. And I started listening

769
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 3: to Kenneth Copeland and I learned a lot from him.

770
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 3: But as years gone on, you know, Jesus said, the

771
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 3: deceitfulness of riches and the care of other things will

772
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 3: choke the word and make it unfruitful. One day, I

773
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 3: was listening to a video. I could not believe this.

774
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,839
Speaker 3: I absolutely could not believe this, that Kenneth and Jesse

775
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 3: Duplanets were talking about the reason they had to have

776
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 3: private jets is because they couldn't fly commercial because there's

777
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 3: demons on those planes.

778
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 2: I know. I saw that, Yes.

779
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 3: And I went, what the Kenneth I knew forty years

780
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 3: ago would have been casting the demons out of the planes?

781
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, like like.

782
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 3: I mean that that excuse it made No, it was ridiculous.

783
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: It was told me that's I can't be that close

784
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: to the people I'm called to minister to is essentially

785
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: what he was saying.

786
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 2: And I saw him.

787
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 1: He was interviewed about that at one point by I

788
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: think it was on Inside Edition or something like that,

789
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 1: by a reporter. It was unbelievable the way he tried

790
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: to justify that comment, like, you're going to minister to

791
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: these people, the very people that may be on your plane,

792
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: but you can't be that close to him. No, we

793
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: have to have a pulpit between us. I have to

794
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: be on a stage above you, over you, and you

795
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: are blowing beneath me, so I can't. I can't co

796
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: mingle with you on a plane. And in that interview

797
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: that was by that reporter, I'll post a link to

798
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:51,720
Speaker 1: it because he turns to her and something otherworldly appeared

799
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: to be behind his eyes. If you watch the video,

800
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 1: it will disturb you to the core.

801
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 2: It's him trying to justify that comment.

802
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 3: You know, I can understand certain ministries that travel a lot,

803
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 3: that go to a lot of different places, that the

804
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 3: need for a private plane where you can get in

805
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 3: and out quickly, especially people who go to African countries

806
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 3: and other countries. I can understand Smaritans pers for example. Yeah,

807
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 3: I'm sure they have their own planes because they go

808
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,760
Speaker 3: to a lot of places to try to do everything

809
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 3: commercial would just be prohibited. So they're valid reasons for

810
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 3: some of this. But are we genuinely doing the work

811
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 3: of the Lord? Or is this just become building up

812
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 3: my ministry? And the thing is somebody can start off

813
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 3: so real and sincere and then wander off into heresy.

814
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 3: I mean, it's scary when I think of my own life,

815
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 3: I said, God, please please don't let me wonder off.

816
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,240
Speaker 3: You know, one of the things about reading my book,

817
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 3: about writing my book. There is so much controversy, there's

818
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 3: so much poor teaching, there's so much misunderstanding that a

819
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:01,879
Speaker 3: friend of mine that came by one day to ask

820
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 3: me questions and we talked for about an hour and

821
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 3: a half and he said, many of you were written

822
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 3: this stuff down. I said, no, it's more complex, and

823
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 3: people know it's scattered throughout scripture. It's difficult for people

824
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 3: to understand. He said, you need to write this down.

825
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 3: People need to know this. So the heart behind this

826
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 3: is something where people can actually see the scriptures right.

827
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 3: Because there's over seven hundred scriptures in this book. I

828
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 3: had to get special permission because I was over the

829
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 3: limit that you can use for copyright. Because it's about

830
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 3: what the Bible says, not what a minister says.

831
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 2: Hey friends, it's Catherine here.

832
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 1: If you're trying to raise godly kids in this wild

833
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,720
Speaker 1: and wacky world, you need all the help you can get,

834
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 1: and I've got you covered. When you subscribe to my website,

835
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 1: you'll get instant access to tons of free resources made

836
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: just for Christian parents. You'll get my Prodigal Bundle, which

837
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 1: is packed with every podcast and scripture list I've created

838
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 1: for parents walking that tough prodigal road. You'll also get

839
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: my free eat book Beyond the Lies and covering five

840
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: myths the culture spreads to mothers, plus powerful scripture list

841
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: pray over your kids, and even scripture songs to help

842
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: your family hid God's word in your hearts without even trying.

843
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: And of course I'll keep you encouraged with my weekly

844
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 1: newsletter full of faith filled pep talks and outlines of

845
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: what we're tackling each week on the show. So i'll

846
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,479
Speaker 1: miss out, head over to Catherine Scars dot com. That's

847
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 1: Catherine Scres dot com and subscribe today. Because Christian parenting

848
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: may be crazy, but you don't have to do it alone. Yeah,

849
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: so we're going to dig into that, and I think

850
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: that's going to be our next episode. We're going to

851
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 1: dig into exactly what the Bible does say about that,

852
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: those things, those promises that we do have in scripture.

853
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:55,800
Speaker 1: But I wanted to end with a couple of thoughts

854
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 1: here and then I'll give you the final word. One thing,

855
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: I had a dear friend years ago. His name was Frank,

856
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: he was elderly. He played at our wedding reception. This guy,

857
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: he was jazz musician, piano player. You would have loved him.

858
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 2: He was awesome.

859
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: He played at a really beautiful restaurant I worked at

860
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: and we had a reception there and Frank Frank.

861
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 7: Was my guy.

862
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: He was like he was going to like my older boyfriend.

863
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: He was in his eighties, and my husband and I

864
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: we just adored him and we witnessed to him. He

865
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: was not a believer, and there were some other friends

866
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: of ours who were witnessing to him, and we finally

867
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: finally got to this place where one night, and I

868
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: think it was because he feared dying. He knew that

869
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 1: he was coming to the end of his life. He

870
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: was old and becoming less and less able, and he

871
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:49,240
Speaker 1: accepted Christ. And then the next day he came back

872
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: to the restaurant and he said, what do I.

873
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 2: Have to do?

874
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: What do I have to give? How much is it

875
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 1: going to cost me? And we said, it doesn't cost

876
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: you anything, Frank. We tried to explain to him, but

877
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: we also tried to explain to him the concept that

878
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: you can't take it with you and.

879
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,439
Speaker 2: That God loves a cheerful giver.

880
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: And you know, we were trying to explain this dichotomy

881
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 1: here that God does not want us to be married

882
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: to the material things of this world, and true faith

883
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: means that I trust him to take care of me,

884
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: and so if he asks for me to give something,

885
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 1: it's not like I can I can't buy salvation. I

886
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 1: can't purchase it. But true salvation will result in someone

887
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 1: whose faith helps him to become a cheerful giver. And

888
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: I can remember us trying to explain this to him

889
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: and he just like, nope, nope, I don't want this.

890
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 2: This isn't no.

891
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 1: He thought that somebody was going to come after his money,

892
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 1: That's what he thought, and he wanted to hold onto it,

893
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 1: and you know, we ended up moving and so I

894
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 1: don't know. I heard that he passed several years later.

895
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if he ever had an encounter with

896
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:58,240
Speaker 1: God where he was really able to accept Christ and

897
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:00,879
Speaker 1: what he did on the cross to the point where

898
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,919
Speaker 1: he would willingly give whatever the Lord asked. But I'm

899
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: sure over the years he was affected by the type

900
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: of examples that we've had in this episode where I'm

901
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: shown these people who are Charlatan's who are taking truths

902
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: from scripture and using them for personal gain. But one

903
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,399
Speaker 1: last story I want to share is a personal one

904
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: of how the Lord really blessed us financially and a

905
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: time where we really needed it. My husband's in the

906
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: hospitality industry, has been for over thirty years, and we

907
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,800
Speaker 1: live in Birmingham, Alabama, and he was the fooon beverage

908
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: director of the two largest hotels in downtown Birmingham. And

909
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: when COVID hit, he was working for the largest hotel

910
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 1: chain in the world and ninety percent of the staff

911
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: and both of those hotels were laid off ninety percent,

912
00:52:57,239 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: and he was furloughed for a little bit, but they

913
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 1: brought him back on in the summer of twenty twenty.

914
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: And there were people that had been hired well before him,

915
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: that had been at that hotel much longer than he had,

916
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 1: but he had a certain skill set and the GM.

917
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 1: He had just tremendous favor with the general manager there,

918
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: and they brought him back on.

919
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 2: And I'm not going to say it was easy. We

920
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 2: were like eighty percent bay no bonus for.

921
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:27,879
Speaker 1: A while, but we kept our job when literally nine

922
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: out of every ten employees in that hotel did not.

923
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: And I can remember one night just marveling at the

924
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 1: favor of God. You know, here we are five kids.

925
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 1: What are we going to do if he loses his

926
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: job and a city where he can't get another job

927
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,840
Speaker 1: in this field, there were no jobs to be had

928
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: at that time, but there we were, all of these

929
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:54,760
Speaker 1: people let go. And I remember praying one night, I'm like, God,

930
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 1: why why us? There were other people there that were longer,

931
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 1: there were other capable people. Why do we still have

932
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 1: a job right now? And it was inaudible. And I

933
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 1: don't like to speak for the Lord or suggest that

934
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 1: I always hear his voice accurately, but I heard the

935
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 1: Lord and my spirit say very clearly, you were in

936
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 1: the ten percent because you're a tither and you've always

937
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 1: given ten percent.

938
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 2: And it's true.

939
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 1: From the early on in our marriage, we set aside

940
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 1: at least ten percent of our annual income, you know,

941
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 1: in every paycheck, to give to the work of the Lord.

942
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: And we'll talk about in the next episode exactly. It

943
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have to be a ten percent, but that's

944
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 1: just where we felt led to give. But it was

945
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 1: something that we have done for thirty years. At that time,

946
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 1: it would have been twenty five years. And the Lord said,

947
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 1: you're a ten percenter, so you're in the ten percent.

948
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 1: And I was so blown away by that because we

949
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 1: were faithful givers. The Lord just supplied foreignees, and I've

950
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: seen it time and time again. He has always provided

951
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 1: for our needs, and I believe that is because we

952
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 1: have been faithful to give what He has placed on

953
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: our hearts to give where He is placed on our

954
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 1: hearts to give.

955
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 2: And I'm not.

956
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: Responsible for what all of those people do with it.

957
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: I'm sure that there have been some times that my

958
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 1: heart was moved and maybe I gave, and maybe it

959
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 1: wasn't to a place that was on the up and

960
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 1: up or one hundred percent pure in their motives and

961
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: ideals with how they use that money. But I know

962
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 1: that I'm not responsible for that. I'm responsible to give

963
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 1: when my heart is prompted, and we have done that

964
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 1: regularly with every paycheck for now over thirty years, and

965
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 1: we have not been forsaken. God has been faithful every

966
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 1: step of the way. So speak into that and just

967
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 1: our closing moments here, just anything you would like to

968
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:49,479
Speaker 1: add about God's faithfulness when we are faithful to give

969
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 1: what he has laid on our hearts to give.

970
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 3: Yes, Okay, And then book a Melachi, God says something

971
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 3: the only time he ever says, you can test me,

972
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 3: test me in this that if you tithe, if you

973
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 3: put me first, see if I won't bless you. In

974
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 3: my life, I've never met anyone that decided to tithe

975
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 3: that God did not wind up blessing them. The woman

976
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 3: with the two widows mights that Jesus praises her more

977
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 3: than all those that were putting me in thousands of dollars.

978
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 3: She was giving into the temple, and the temple authorities

979
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,760
Speaker 3: were corrupt. Yes, the Lord will deal with them later

980
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 3: for how they used the money. But she was giving

981
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 3: unto God. Because when you give unto God, you give

982
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 3: like when Abraham tithed, does he just throw it up

983
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 3: in the air and say, God, you pick up what

984
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 3: you want and I'll pick up the rest. No, he

985
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 3: gave it to a man in the earth that represented

986
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 3: God in the earth. If that man misuses it or

987
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 3: misapplies that God will deal with them, that's not your concern.

988
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 3: See I make a statement in my book. God wants

989
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 3: your money. He does not need your money. Everything you

990
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:01,359
Speaker 3: have comes from God wants your money. Why does he

991
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 3: want your money? Because he wants your heart, and Jesus says,

992
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 3: where your treasure is there, your heart will be. Also,

993
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 3: people always spend money on what they love. Is it shoes, cars,

994
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 3: fishing equipment, guns, hotel trips, planes, whatever it is, Okay,

995
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 3: people spend their money on what they love. So you

996
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 3: tell me you love God and his kingdom. If you'll

997
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 3: show me your checkbook, I can tell you where you're

998
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 3: do or not.

999
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: That is so true, Cliff. And that's a provocative statement

1000
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: that you said.

1001
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 2: There. God wants your money, He needs your money, You

1002
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 2: need your heart. And what we know.

1003
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:44,919
Speaker 1: Is that our money is attached to our heart. What

1004
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 1: we love we're going to spend money on. And that

1005
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: is so true. I can't thank you enough, Cliff. This

1006
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: is this conversation has been so necessary. We prayed beforehand

1007
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: that it would be very freeing to people who have

1008
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 1: struggled in this area of their finances because it's such

1009
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:03,959
Speaker 1: a hard topic. Because we see the Charlatans out there.

1010
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 1: We see them using biblical concepts in ways that are

1011
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,919
Speaker 1: not biblical, and they're using the money for personal game,

1012
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: just like the money lenders, just like the vendors that

1013
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: were outside of the temple that Jesus overturned those tables, right,

1014
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 1: and so there's reason to be righteously indignant about that

1015
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 1: when we see those kind of activities happening in the

1016
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 1: modern day, and we do. Nevertheless, when we give as

1017
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: unto the Lord, we're not responsible for how they use

1018
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 1: that money.

1019
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 2: We are responsible to.

1020
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 1: Give, and that is one of the chief ways that

1021
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 1: God can break us up materialism. When we are setting

1022
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 1: aside regularly, we give directly from our bank account. We

1023
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 1: just make sure that each and every check that's the

1024
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,360
Speaker 1: first thing that goes out that we're going to give,

1025
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 1: and that helps to break us from that spirit of

1026
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 1: materialism that is so prevalent in our age. So this

1027
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 1: has been so so helpful to address the very legitimate

1028
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 1: and real concerns that we as believers have. But at

1029
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 1: the same time, the biblical principles of giving are so

1030
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 1: necessary because they ensure that we are not like those

1031
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: ministers you mentioned who started off strong. But it was

1032
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 1: just like the seeds, right, the seed the parable of

1033
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 1: the sewer, the cares of the world grew up and

1034
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 1: drowned out, choked out the legitimate, true faith and love

1035
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 1: of the Lord because they became more concerned about material

1036
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 1: possessions than the God who provides for them.

1037
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 2: So you give voice to what so many of us

1038
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 2: have experienced. Here.

1039
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 1: Tell us, though, tell us where our listeners can get

1040
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 1: a copy of your book What the Bible says about

1041
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 1: tithing and giving.

1042
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 2: It's different than you think.

1043
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 3: You can find it an Amazon, Barnes, Noble Books, Million.

1044
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 3: Amazon's probably the most likely place. So you just go

1045
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 3: in the search box and type in Clifton H. Payne Jr.

1046
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 3: It'll pull my book right up. It's available and Kindle.

1047
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 3: It's available in paperback or hardback. People tell me it

1048
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 3: takes a lot longer to get the hardback, so you

1049
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 3: may just want to get the paperback that they tell

1050
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 3: me that comes very quickly. My book was vetted by

1051
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 3: some very famous and very serious scholars, so it's accurate,

1052
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 3: and it's written for the average person to understand, and

1053
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 3: it's written with so many scriptures so that you have

1054
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 3: for yourself a handbook. It shows you what the Bible says,

1055
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 3: not what Cliff says the Bible says, but what the

1056
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 3: Bible actually says. That you can see it for yourself.

1057
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you so much, Mom's and dads.

1058
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 1: Next week we're going to dig into what the Bible

1059
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 1: actually has to say about tithing and giving, because I

1060
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 1: think it's going to surprise some of you, may even

1061
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 1: help you to experience some excitement and freedom in the

1062
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: area of your finances. God wants your heart and that,

1063
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 1: like I said, is a tack to your procket, bug,

1064
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 1: your bank account, your four to oh one gaze, all

1065
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 1: of that. But this conversation is one that we need

1066
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 1: to have with our kids as well, because they're going

1067
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 1: to encounter some counterfeits, some charlatan, some modern day money changers,

1068
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: and when they hear the critics, we need to help

1069
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:21,880
Speaker 1: them discern the difference between manipulative greed and god honoring generosities.

1070
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 1: Next week, Cliff and I are going to dig deeper

1071
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 1: into what the Bible actually says about tithing and giving,

1072
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 1: because so.

1073
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 2: Much of what we have been taught simply isn't biblical.

1074
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 1: But when we align our hearts with God's design for

1075
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 1: our giving, it's freeing, it's empowering, and it can open

1076
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 1: the door to tremendous blessings for you and your family.

1077
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 1: So thanks for joining us for this really important conversation.

1078
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 2: Cliff, thank you for having me and As.

1079
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 1: Always, remember that God gave you your kids, your specific

1080
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 1: kids for a reason. That's because you hold the key

1081
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Speaker 1: to unlocking who God created them to be. They'll see

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Speaker 1: you next time.

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Speaker 8: Christian parent Crazy World is a production of Life Audio

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Speaker 8: and Salem Media. If you liked what you heard today,

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Speaker 8: please take a second to rate and review this podcast

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Speaker 8: in your favorite podcast app so that more listeners like

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Speaker 8: you can find the show. For more faith filled inspirational podcasts,

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Speaker 8: visit us at lifeaudio dot com.