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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,

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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the

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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions

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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian.

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Speaker 2: He called to make a difference in mental health.

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Speaker 1: Columbia International University offers graduate counseling degrees that combine professional

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Speaker 1: excellence with Biblical truth from associates. Through doctoral program, CiU

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Speaker 1: prepares you to bring healing and wholeness to others through

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Speaker 1: their k CREP accredited Masters in Clinical Counseling or their

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Speaker 1: PhD in counselor Education and Supervision, You'll learn from experience

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Speaker 1: faculty who integrate faith with real world application to cultivate

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Speaker 1: a Kingdom impact through disciples who counsel, teach, and train.

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Speaker 1: Whether you're starting your journey or advancing your career, CiU's

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Speaker 1: counseling programs equip you to serve others both professionally and spiritually.

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Speaker 2: Visit CiU dot edu.

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Speaker 1: To learn more about making a difference in mental health

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Speaker 1: through Christ centered education.

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Speaker 2: That's CiU dot edu.

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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, welcome back to this episode of Thinking Christian.

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Speaker 1: I'm joined today by doctor Ben Matthew. He is a

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Speaker 1: professor of counselor education. I almost always get that wrong

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Speaker 1: at Columbia International University, And today we're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about the embodied leg of this sort of structure

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Speaker 1: we're pulling together in relation to faith and mental health.

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Speaker 1: And just to remind everybody, we're really sort of playing

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Speaker 1: off this article that dealt with deaths of despair and

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Speaker 1: how when Blue State laws and those laws were related

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Speaker 1: to the closure of retail outlets on Sundays were done

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Speaker 1: away with, there was an increase correlative increase in these

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Speaker 1: deaths of despair. And so as we dive into this

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Speaker 1: embodied leg, what we're really talking about is what is

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Speaker 1: the communal life, the embeddedment in being embedded within a

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Speaker 1: communal life. What does that do for our mental health?

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Speaker 1: How does that help us, how does that ground us,

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Speaker 1: how does it give us sort of symbolic handles to

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Speaker 1: understand the world and to cope with its challenges. And

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Speaker 1: so that's where we're kind of going today. So I'll

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Speaker 1: just I'll kind of kick it off and just say,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of times where we

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Speaker 1: are right now, I do a lot with digital world stuff.

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Speaker 1: I do a lot with social media and all that

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Speaker 1: kind of fun stuff. And I know there are some

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Speaker 1: detrimental aspects to this, but I also don't think that

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Speaker 1: we push back hard enough in certain instances. And part

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Speaker 1: of the reason I was drawn to the Deaths of

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Speaker 1: Despair report was that it unearthed something that wasn't digital.

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Speaker 1: And it's the idea that when given choices and the

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Speaker 1: ability to make those choices easily, we are often going

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Speaker 1: to choose things that aren't that good for us. In

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Speaker 1: other words, if I can drive to the store and

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Speaker 1: shop as opposed to driving to church and worship, I'm

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Speaker 1: making a poor choice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so our mobility, right, our ability to move about

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Speaker 1: as that's expanded, I think we haven't thought through quite

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Speaker 1: well enough where we want.

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Speaker 2: To travel too in a given instance, and.

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Speaker 1: How traveling to something like the church is going to

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Speaker 1: give us a ritual symbolic rooting in the world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was. I think I was talking to

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Speaker 3: you about this and some others early. I still remember

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Speaker 3: as a kid Sundays where everything was closed like that,

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Speaker 3: that was the norm for most Sundays. And when those

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Speaker 3: when those laws started changing, when those stores started opening up,

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Speaker 3: both this sense of like, uh, are we allowed to

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Speaker 3: do this? Like it is this allowed? Is God gonna

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Speaker 3: strike us down from the Holy Mountain? And also some

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Speaker 3: excitement like, oh, I can actually go to the store

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Speaker 3: during this time, I can actually go see a movie

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Speaker 3: on Sundays. And yeah, like the thought of what it

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Speaker 3: opened up was kind of exciting for a young kid

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Speaker 3: like myself because it was formally blocked off, and I

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Speaker 3: saw it as, to be honest, an opportunity like I

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Speaker 3: get to do more of what I want to do,

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Speaker 3: rather than I get to do church and then I

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Speaker 3: get to go home and back in the day. Then

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Speaker 3: we'd go back to church at Sunday night, like we

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Speaker 3: had all kinds of church going on like all day,

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Speaker 3: and it just seems so so plaustrophobic. Whereas when those

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Speaker 3: laws change and I could go to the mall, I

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Speaker 3: could go to the movie theater, I could go to

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Speaker 3: the arcade back in the day when I had to

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Speaker 3: go to a physical place to play video games like

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Speaker 3: it was all it was all very right, and that itself,

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Speaker 3: I remember the excitement, the fear, and the excitement of that.

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Speaker 3: But again, what we always try to do with this,

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Speaker 3: researchers understand the correlational, like you said, reactions of is

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Speaker 3: that this didn't cause necessarily these realities, but they tend

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Speaker 3: to find connection in terms of what it then provides.

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Speaker 3: How we then responded with so many other correlates that

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Speaker 3: were available at that time, one of which is this

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Speaker 3: disconnection from the Body of Christ, if not just relationally

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Speaker 3: and socially and spiritually even physically. Right, even me saying

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Speaker 3: we should have a Sunday night meeting, I don't think

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Speaker 3: that's normative any And I'm not trying to make an

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Speaker 3: argument that Sunday night is, say good or bad. It's

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Speaker 3: just we've lost more sense of that communal rhythm of togetherness,

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Speaker 3: and that's got to play an implication into some of

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Speaker 3: the struggles that we're dealing with as a society.

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Speaker 1: I think so, I mean, I think we're at least

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Speaker 1: in some of the research that I'm doing. I've gotten

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Speaker 1: into cognitive psychology and the notion of embedded or embodied

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Speaker 1: knowing and how it is that our bodies help us

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Speaker 1: to understand the world around us. And I told the

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Speaker 1: story on a previous podcast. You know of the different

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Speaker 1: ways that you know my wife when she's walking in

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Speaker 1: a in a or when she's traveling in a city

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Speaker 1: by herself, she doesn't feel comfortable walking. I don't really

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Speaker 1: think like that. I feel generally safe in most places.

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Speaker 1: I assume that there's going to be somebody who's more

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Speaker 1: of a you know, who's a better target for.

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Speaker 2: Someone than me.

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Speaker 1: Now maybe that's the wrong assumption, and I'm just fooling myself,

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Speaker 1: but either way, you know the way I embody the world,

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Speaker 1: I do feel that way, and then you know, you

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Speaker 1: have the juxtaposition of that I can and this is

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Speaker 1: a totally different story, but I can remember working on

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Speaker 1: the farm when I was over the summers, when I

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Speaker 1: was a kid to work on the farm, and in

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Speaker 1: high school, I was still pretty big. I hated being

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Speaker 1: in small spaces, anything where both shoulders were touching the

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Speaker 1: sides of two things would drive me crazy because it

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Speaker 1: just didn't feel comfortable. That sort of space. So it's

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Speaker 1: not an argument to hey, let's get you know, let's

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Speaker 1: embody the world in a very particular way, but it

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Speaker 1: is the point is that the ways we the physical

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Speaker 1: situations that we put ourselves in, do have implications for

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Speaker 1: how we think and understand the world around us. And

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Speaker 1: that's not trivial. It's actually, I think becoming more and

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Speaker 1: more that people are realizing it's not just that it's

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Speaker 1: not trivial, it's actually pretty crucial.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean in a clinical context, research and

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Speaker 3: psychological studies are appreciating that physicality that is part of

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Speaker 3: the therapeutic process, right, if not how we breathe, you know,

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Speaker 3: structured box breathing. Right, we talk about this idea of

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Speaker 3: control breathing as a measure of regaining some calm and

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Speaker 3: panic attacks, or the utilization of a cold pack on

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Speaker 3: the back of your neck or certain pressure points, the

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Speaker 3: ability to physically One of the things that I'll use

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Speaker 3: with clients that are struggling with severe anxiety is to

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Speaker 3: name five things in the place you're sitting in. Okay,

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Speaker 3: there's a window, there's a chair, there's a speaker, that

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Speaker 3: the engagement with the physicality of your setting research is

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Speaker 3: finding it has an incredible way of what we call grounding, right,

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Speaker 3: I mean it literally helps you calm your heart rate,

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Speaker 3: calm your breathing, calm your response. That generally what we

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Speaker 3: understand about anxiety is this kind of flight or fright

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Speaker 3: or freeze response. Right when we perceive some danger in

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Speaker 3: the physical emotional perception, our body physically respond. So let's

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Speaker 3: do things to the body. Let's not just get to

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Speaker 3: the cognitive. Let's just tell a person you're fine, you're

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Speaker 3: in an office, you're not being chased by a line,

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Speaker 3: and you're okay, Yeah, that doesn't work here. So what

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Speaker 3: can we do physically to actually help clients? And there's

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Speaker 3: something to that I think is just so theologically rich

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Speaker 3: as well as to how many times, if not the

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Speaker 3: nation of Israel or the Church is called to inhabit

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Speaker 3: embody space. Yeah, in sacrifice in temples, in the Lord's Supper,

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Speaker 3: in Baptists, like all these liturgies that we recognize are

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Speaker 3: very physically oriented in order to help us get beyond

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Speaker 3: the physical, but not apart from the physical. And there's

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Speaker 3: something that I think needs to be engaged there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's interesting, Like one of the

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Speaker 1: things I've tried to help people understand when I talk

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Speaker 1: about what John Vervaki calls participatory knowing it's this sort

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Speaker 1: of interaction between the agent and the arena that they're in.

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Speaker 1: I'll talk about how how easy it is for us

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Speaker 1: to tell the difference between a bath and a baptism. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: a baptism, we can distinguish that clearly. You know, you're

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Speaker 1: usually in front of a congregation, there's a pastor involved,

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Speaker 1: there are words spoken, there are maybe there's music playing

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Speaker 1: in the background. Right, there's someone who's physically dunking you

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Speaker 1: under the water. Right, Like, there's all of these elements

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Speaker 1: that you're actually participating in and as an embodied individual

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Speaker 1: that make a baptism a baptism. It's not just immersion

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Speaker 1: in water, Right, You wouldn't mistake it for a bath,

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Speaker 1: which has a completely different setting is usually more individual

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Speaker 1: and right off, soap and towels and those kind of things.

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Speaker 1: But like, some of the elements are the same, but

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Speaker 1: that you can clearly tell the difference. You could do

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Speaker 1: the same thing with You wouldn't mistake a baptism for

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Speaker 1: a cannon ball in a pool. Right There, there's all

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Speaker 1: these things within our environment that cue us to this

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Speaker 1: is special or this is one event and this is

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Speaker 1: another event. In the same way you could say, you know,

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Speaker 1: you go out to an Italian restaurant.

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Speaker 2: You're having a little bread and a little wine. This

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Speaker 2: is not communion.

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Speaker 3: As good as good as that garlic bread maybe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, yeah, thank you alive garden. This is not

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Speaker 1: communion bread and wine. Right, And so you just sit

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Speaker 1: back and you kind of like, Okay, there's a there's

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Speaker 1: a ritualistic element, a set of of elements within the

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Speaker 1: environment that are helping us to understand that we've entered

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Speaker 1: a different space, that we're doing something of different significance,

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Speaker 1: and that this actually has more of a storied or

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Speaker 1: symbolic meaning to it.

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Speaker 2: But that's an embodied understanding. It requires that environment for

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Speaker 2: that to be the case.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and almost to your point. I mean, I love

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Speaker 3: the baptism construct. Part of the other reality of a

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Speaker 3: baptism that helps clarify that it's a baptism is the

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Speaker 3: embodied space with others. Yes, in contrast to a bath

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Speaker 3: that is very individualistic in private, as it should be. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the whole point of a baptism is a communal celebration

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Speaker 3: of this person identifying with death and then being resurrected

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Speaker 3: to life. We just had one last Sunday out at

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Speaker 3: my local church and to see there are these moments

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Speaker 3: where you're kind of waiting for that person to come

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Speaker 3: up out of the water, and you can feel the

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Speaker 3: excitement of people like yes, they start clapping, and you

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Speaker 3: just see the response of the community, which is a

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Speaker 3: right respect the Lord's Supper as well. As much as

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Speaker 3: I take up these physical elements, that is not olive garden,

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Speaker 3: but it is in the construct of her. As often

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Speaker 3: as you eat the bread, drink the cup, you do

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Speaker 3: so in a manner that helps me remember this truth

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Speaker 3: about Jesus. But the whole point is that Paul's writing

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Speaker 3: to a church, a community at Corinth that is expected

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Speaker 3: to gather together, that I take this bread to use

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Speaker 3: your point sometimes touching shoulders with people on either side,

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Speaker 3: that I'm like, dude, give me a little space, like

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Speaker 3: this is a little too close, and that's that's not

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Speaker 3: comfortable all the time. If there's times I could take

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Speaker 3: the Lord's Supper by myself, I'll be honest, I'd like

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Speaker 3: to do that, right. But part of Paul's expectation is

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Speaker 3: that you do this not just this way, but this

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Speaker 3: way with others as well, which I think is pretty amazing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it does sort of feel though in many of

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Speaker 1: at least in the churches that I've gone to, we're

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Speaker 1: losing some of that ritual and you know, it becomes

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Speaker 1: a little more casual. Oh okay, today's communion Sunday. We're

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Speaker 1: just gonna go up and grab some stuff and come

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Speaker 1: back to our seats, and yeah, we'll eat it all together.

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Speaker 1: But it's not you know when I grew up, I

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Speaker 1: grew up Lutheran, and you'd go up and you'd kneel

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Speaker 1: on the thing in.

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Speaker 2: The front, physically kneil.

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Speaker 1: You'd physically kneel, you know, you're facing the front right Like.

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Speaker 1: There's a whole context to it, and I think informs it,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, we can think of it this

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Speaker 1: in a very similar way. It's like if you know,

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Speaker 1: a five year old, you know, gets into the which

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Speaker 1: I have a five year old now, and I could

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Speaker 1: actually see her doing this.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Let's say let's say she, you know, gets into the

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Speaker 1: church room where they're keeping the little bread wafers.

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Speaker 2: And the you know, and the grape juice, and she's

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Speaker 2: just challenged down on that. We're not calling that communion either.

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Speaker 1: You know, you could see you know again, if you

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Speaker 1: if I just use her an analogy, she you know,

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Speaker 1: is running around the baptismal and falls in not a baptism.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So there's all these different aspects to it that make

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Speaker 1: it into something unique and special. And I think what

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Speaker 1: maybe we haven't wrestled to the ground yet, is why

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Speaker 1: is it that those sorts of rituals are ever important?

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Speaker 1: Like why is it that that something like a baptism

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Speaker 1: has such meaning to a congregation? You know, the cynical

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Speaker 1: person might say, well, it's just because you're adding to

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Speaker 1: the roles and now you're getting more gifts.

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Speaker 2: Come in or whatever. Right, Yeah, you know you're you're

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Speaker 2: hitting a number that you're aiming for.

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Speaker 1: That's really not it. It's a celebration of a new life.

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Speaker 1: It's a celebration of someone who is committing to the

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Speaker 1: process of discipleship. It's it's all those other aspects. But

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Speaker 1: I think that as we if we lose these, or

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Speaker 1: to the extent that we have lost these, it feels

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Speaker 1: like life just takes on a.

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Speaker 2: I'll use this analogy. You'll understand this, maybe some people won't.

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Speaker 1: There's an old game called Super Mario Brothers Classic, right,

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Speaker 1: and it always had levels, Right, You'd get to the

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Speaker 1: end of the level and the little guy would jump

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Speaker 1: on the flag and he'd slide down and then you

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Speaker 1: go to the next level. But if you can envision

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Speaker 1: playing Mario Brothers without that, where it's just one really

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Speaker 1: super long level that you're having to run through and

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Speaker 1: there's no there's never a time where you jump on

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Speaker 1: the flag and you end.

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Speaker 2: It's just all one thing.

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Speaker 1: That's sort of what I feel like we've we're producing.

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Speaker 1: Without these tools, there's no punctuation, right, there's no sacred

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Speaker 1: moment in life. It all just starts to bleed together. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: Ben?

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I just had flashbacks of both Super

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Speaker 3: Mario Brothers and dun Hunt all at the same time. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: because you're absolutely right. It was those Yeah, it was

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Speaker 3: those moments when you, I mean, think again on that flag.

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Speaker 3: It helped punctuate both the the reality of the here

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Speaker 3: and now and the anticipation of what's next. But it

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Speaker 3: gave me those that the constant rhythm of that Yeah, Oh,

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Speaker 3: there's something that there the reality of. I think even

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Speaker 3: what the Lord's Supper, for instance, does right the ritual

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Speaker 3: that the rhythm of the Lord's supper. For as often

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Speaker 3: as you eat the bread, drink the cup, you do

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Speaker 3: so you remember what he did until he comes. So

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Speaker 3: like in this present moment, I reached back into the

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Speaker 3: past thousands of years ago about what this man Jesus

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Speaker 3: did on the cross, but also in this present moment,

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Speaker 3: I look forward to the return of the King. Like

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Speaker 3: I engage with all tenses, but I do so in

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Speaker 3: a very time oriented, space oriented weekly And I think

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Speaker 3: you're right. It is a concern of mine that we

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Speaker 3: are missing out in some of that ritual communal living

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Speaker 3: like that, that purposeful day in, day out, week in

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Speaker 3: week out, that builds that remembrance, lived reality and eschatological hope.

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Speaker 3: When my wife and I moved here to Columbia, South Carolina,

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Speaker 3: we started looking for churches, and in itself was kind

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Speaker 3: of a new thing for us. We've been going to

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Speaker 3: a church for twenty plus years, so this was our

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Speaker 3: first chance. And I remember thinking, particularly at some of

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Speaker 3: the churches that were how can I say this, Well,

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Speaker 3: we're constantly like a movie theater. Yeah, and listen, they

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Speaker 3: are great, great musicians, great preachers, but the whole time

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Speaker 3: you go in, lights are dark. Yeah, and all the

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Speaker 3: attention is up on the stage. And my wife was

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Speaker 3: the one who really helped me see this is like

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Speaker 3: it felt like we were at a concert every time.

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Speaker 3: And not that I'm opposed to the style necessarily, but

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Speaker 3: the biggest dilemma is we couldn't see everyone else beside us.

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Speaker 3: It actually wasn't. What was the concern wasn't necessarily up

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Speaker 3: on stage. It was the concern that we couldn't see

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Speaker 3: the people that we were worshiping with. We felt the

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Speaker 3: loss of connection and the weekly rhythm of what the

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Speaker 3: church should be. The church we go to now has

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Speaker 3: great windows and we're like, yes, we get to see

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Speaker 3: people every Sunday because there was something that we felt

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Speaker 3: was so necessary. As much as I want to hear

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Speaker 3: the preaching of God's word and I want to have

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Speaker 3: a community of the saints and I want to have

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Speaker 3: fellowship and prayer and singing, I want to do it

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Speaker 3: with people in a way that helps me recognize why

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Speaker 3: I'm doing this as well and clinically. That's one of

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Speaker 3: the struggles I'm trying to deal with with my clients

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Speaker 3: is as much as I want to work with them individually, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: what often I need to do is actually open up

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Speaker 3: their abilities to engage communally. Yeah, I'm going to work

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Speaker 3: with you individually. But if you think this is actually

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Speaker 3: where health comes just you and me sitting together in

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Speaker 3: a room talking for forty five minutes, you got to

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Speaker 3: put this into practice. And the best place to put

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Speaker 3: this in practice for Christians is within the context search

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Speaker 3: for non Christians and some communal aspect that gives those

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Speaker 3: regular rhythms of ritual and engagement and ultimately for community.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think.

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Speaker 1: There's something to that, to the punctuation we're you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think your point about the communion looking back,

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Speaker 1: looking forward, being in the moment all at the same time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're sort of creatures in time, like part of our

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Speaker 1: embody and is an experience of time, and and so

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Speaker 1: we need to build in this rhythm of some some

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Speaker 1: sort of sacred time, something that disrupts everything else we're doing.

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Speaker 1: And if I had to put a finger on and

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Speaker 1: I don't think this is exactly what you're saying, but

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Speaker 1: like from my perspective, if I had to put a

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Speaker 1: finger on why sometimes that sort of rock concert sort

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Speaker 1: of church and I mean I've been to churches where

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Speaker 1: they actually played like nickelback.

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Speaker 2: From the front, and you're just like, right, like what

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Speaker 2: is happening? But you know, to put my finger on.

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Speaker 1: It's like there's no interruption in the week, right, especially.

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Speaker 2: Right it's all screen, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: It's like I can watch I can, you know, watch

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Speaker 1: Netflix all week and then go to church and basically

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Speaker 1: get a Netflix type performance.

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Speaker 2: I can, you know, I can.

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Speaker 1: I go to work and I do my thing at

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Speaker 1: work and it's these sort of superficial conversations or whatever

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Speaker 1: it is, you know, and then I go to church

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Speaker 1: and it's kind of the same thing. Right, I'm constantly

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Speaker 1: being entertained. My attention is always what people want. And

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Speaker 1: so now here's what it is.

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Speaker 2: And there's no you know, to use the sports and alley,

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Speaker 2: there's no change up. It's all fastballs.

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Speaker 1: You just kind of get used to it and you're

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Speaker 1: just like, okay, whatever, I guess this is all there is.

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Speaker 1: But we do need that change up, like it's got

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Speaker 1: to be in the mix because I think as creatures

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Speaker 1: in time, time just starts to grind on us. If

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Speaker 1: we don't punctuate it with something sacred, it all becomes

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Speaker 1: sort of good banal.

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Speaker 3: And I imagine, I imagine that's part of what even

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Speaker 3: the preacher was saying in Ecclesiastes, right, like there's a

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Speaker 3: time for dancing, there's a time for morning, there's a

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Speaker 3: time for picking up stones and late, like he talks

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Speaker 3: about time in so many constructs, and that he has

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Speaker 3: also put eternity in your hearts. So like in the

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Speaker 3: very same I think, is chapter three right where he

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Speaker 3: talks about both realities there's times for and he's put

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Speaker 3: this other thing called eternity into both and reality that

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Speaker 3: were meant to have sacred punctuated realities that help us

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Speaker 3: realize it's not supposed to be. This is linear engagement,

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Speaker 3: like he said, and I will say coming out of COVID,

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Speaker 3: this is probably one of the biggest, one of the

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Speaker 3: biggest issues I continue to deal with with a lot

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Speaker 3: of my clients. COVID gave understandably people of the ability

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Speaker 3: just to turn on my TV Sunday morning and watch

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Speaker 3: the message. Now, for whatever your response or politics may

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Speaker 3: be as to whether that was right or wrong, it

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Speaker 3: was the reality for the vast majority of the world

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Speaker 3: during that time. What that then opened up was the

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Speaker 3: reality that even when I don't have to do it

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Speaker 3: because of social distancing, whatever is, I can do it.

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Speaker 3: And if I can do it on Sunday morning for

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Speaker 3: my couch, what prevents me from having that same mindset

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Speaker 3: even there as well? Where like you said, I can

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Speaker 3: watch Netflix at one channel, I can turn on ESPN

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Speaker 3: with the other channel and look, there's my church on

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Speaker 3: the other channel, and it's all on the same level.

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Speaker 3: But we trick ourselves into thinking, yeah, but I got church.

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Speaker 3: Like I heard the preacher, I saw him saying, I

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Speaker 3: actually even pray. I put my head down when they prayed,

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Speaker 3: And so I did church. And there's something about that

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Speaker 3: that continues to falsely advertise as good enough. And what

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Speaker 3: it's doing is it's missing out on the actual embodiment

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Speaker 3: of space and time with others that is such an

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Speaker 3: important aspect of human flourishing, not just Christianity, but just

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Speaker 3: human flourishing in general.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because I mean, I think I can think we

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Speaker 1: even if we took this out of a church context,

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Speaker 1: which maybe this isn't the best analogy, but I mean,

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Speaker 1: I can remember my parents being in a bowling league.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like back in the day, and they turned me

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Speaker 2: out to the bowling alley.

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Speaker 1: Whenever we go to the bowling alley, they had this

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Speaker 1: like horrible little diner out there, and so I'd get

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Speaker 1: you know, what I thought was a great burger and

435
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 1: fries and then a Shirley Temple.

436
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 3: Oh man.

437
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, this is this is great. And it

438
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 2: was weekly.

439
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 1: Every week we're doing this, like and I never got

440
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: tired of the burger and fries. I'd actually look forward

441
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 1: to it and I'm like, no way, it's bowling league night,

442
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,719
Speaker 1: Like this is awesome, right, And you know this was

443
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: this was an era before even game boys or anything like.

444
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 2: That came out.

445
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 1: So I'm literally sitting there watching bowling and enjoying myself

446
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: because this is just the cadence of life. It's every week,

447
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: this is where I am, this is what I'm doing.

448
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: It was a ritual and I got to spend time.

449
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 1: Like there were other kids there that I never got

450
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 1: to see or whatever, you know, and so like it

451
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: had this sort of meaning to it because it was

452
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 1: regular and it was different.

453
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I think.

454
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 1: That that's sort of part of what we need the

455
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 1: church to sort of rethink because it does give this

456
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: sort of of if the church could do it, It

457
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: provides that sort of meaningful, different experience that comes along every.

458
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 2: Week and gives us a true departure.

459
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: I don't want to say break because I don't feel

460
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: like it's yeah, I don't want to frame.

461
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 2: Church is like a break from my normal life.

462
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: It breaks into my normal life and it reminds me

463
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: that there's more here than sometimes I realize that the

464
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: week can kind of grind this out of me. But

465
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: the reality is that life is sacred, and this is

466
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: where we remember that. This is where we get re

467
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: energized that life is sacred. This is where we start

468
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 1: to understand why life is sacred. And if it's just

469
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 1: a continuation of the same that gets really old, really

470
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: fast and kind of go back to some of our

471
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 1: previous conversations. It creates an existential anxiety because if I'm

472
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: already frustrated with the way the world is going and

473
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: this place sounds exactly actly the same as everything else

474
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: I'm encountering, what hope do I really have?

475
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 3: Ye?

476
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 2: Right?

477
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, And and that's such a good thought. The we

478
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 3: need to remember the framing of the church is not

479
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 3: this yeah, break from normality. In fact, it helps it

480
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 3: helps clarify, focus, uh re engage with what is normality

481
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 3: between the rest of the week in a way that

482
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 3: the rhythms that the habits of my heart, you know,

483
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 3: to kind of put some of the kind of like

484
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 3: what uh James K. A. Smith kind of talks about

485
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 3: those We we develop our affections through those rituals, right,

486
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 3: The rituals actually help clarify and focus some of what

487
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 3: we what we need. And it's done in the context

488
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 3: of others. That's the hard part because I've met some

489
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 3: of those others and they've met me, and we we

490
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 3: we know too well, right, But those others are not

491
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 3: the easiest. And so it's so much easier if I

492
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 3: could just retreat to myself, retreat to my space, my time,

493
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 3: and you know, have meted out engagement in very if

494
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 3: possible digital formats as much as possible, rather than actual,

495
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 3: real lived practices together. And yet the the hardship is

496
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 3: worth the effort because it actually forms better affections for

497
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 3: better tasting meals beyond Shirley temples and burgers.

498
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, when I.

499
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: Do think it creates you know, we mentioned in a

500
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: previous episodes like the church is this non anxious presence, right,

501
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: And I think part of at least what I mean

502
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: by that is is saying the church has an.

503
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 2: Ownership of itself.

504
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: Right, then it's now responding to God's claim on it,

505
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: as opposed to trying to be something.

506
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: It's not. You come to church, it's it is what

507
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 2: it is, right.

508
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: And I don't care about the worship style and all

509
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff like that's not what I'm talking about.

510
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: But but it's also not a performance to you. It's

511
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: not a moment where you should be entertained. If you're entertained,

512
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: that can be a byproduct, I suppose, but it should

513
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: have some different substance. It should have some different cadence.

514
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 1: It should have some real meat to it, right, that

515
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: embeds you back into the symbolic world that you're always

516
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: a part of anyway, yep, but that the outside.

517
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: World tends to drive out of us through the week,

518
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: you know.

519
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that again why it refocuses When my family

520
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 3: and I lived in Iowa for about twenty years, yeah,

521
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 3: and one of our neighbors behind us was a huge

522
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 3: Iowa Hawkeye fan, so University of Iowa, and he we

523
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: started getting into it. But he's like, no, no, you don't

524
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 3: really understand Hawkeye football until you go until you go

525
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 3: to the stadium. And we went with it. He had

526
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 3: season tickets, so he said, listen, I gotta let you know,

527
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 3: we do the whole nine yards when we go to

528
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 3: these things. He got up at like four thirty with

529
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 3: his get there. First thing he does is he makes

530
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 3: steaks and drinks. And then as we get to the game,

531
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 3: we have to touch this left foot of this statue

532
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 3: and the right hand goes on a helmet and you

533
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 3: got to get your you know, vestments on, I mean

534
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 3: your jersey, and like it was religious. It was a

535
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 3: religious experience, right, and every home game he does this.

536
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 3: He said for him though, this is this is his engagement,

537
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 3: this is his this is his church of sorts, right,

538
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 3: because it gave him a sense of refocusing. But it

539
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 3: wasn't enough just to turn on his TV at home,

540
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 3: which he can do. He has you know, big twelve

541
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 3: football he can turned on. For him. It was the

542
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 3: engagement of the food, the liturgy, the clothing. There's even

543
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 3: one point. Iowa is famous for what's called the Iowa

544
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 3: wave where the university hospital is overlooking the stadium and

545
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 3: they bring all the sick kids out to the windows,

546
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 3: and at halftime, everyone in the stadium turns around and

547
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 3: waves at the kids. It's one of the most beautiful things.

548
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 3: And my friend says, I know it's not much, but

549
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 3: I get to give back a little. Yeah, that little

550
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 3: physical movement to him to do that with all those

551
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: forty fifty thousand people. He's not under no delusion that

552
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 3: he's solving cancer for those kids or anything like that,

553
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 3: but he knows it's something that he can both be

554
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 3: part of, find joy in and give good too. I'm thinking,

555
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 3: if they can do that at a football game, my goodness,

556
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 3: how much more can the local church be that place?

557
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 3: And to your point, take the responsibility of providing a

558
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 3: place to do that, not just as a spectator, but

559
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 3: as an actual member that is contributing to that reality.

560
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you were in Chicago, I'm sure

561
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: they have it in other talents, but it was the

562
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: fourth phase, you know, offense, defense, special teams.

563
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: And the fans and the fourth phase. Right, and as

564
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: corny and cheesy as that is, you got it too.

565
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: You get into it, right, you go to the game.

566
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: You're freezing, you know.

567
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: I mean I remember the first Chicago Bearts game I

568
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: went to and somebody told me, no, you got to

569
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: take a piece of cardboard to put your feet on.

570
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: It helps your feet not be cold. I'm like, no,

571
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: it doesn't, it doesn't at all. But I mean, you're

572
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 2: the fourth phase. You got to be there.

573
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 3: Yep.

574
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that's a really good analogy. And

575
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: I think that as we think about sort of faith

576
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: and mental health, this just needs to be a component

577
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: of what happens.

578
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: There has to be this.

579
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: Moment where you're not just playing Mario all the way

580
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: through without being able to jump on the flag. You're

581
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 1: not just you know, watching football on television while you

582
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: you know, do your laundry or whatever. Right, these are

583
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: those sort of it keeps everything mundane. Yeah, And I

584
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: think what we need is a moment uh in every

585
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: week where the world is reframed as symbolic and meaningful

586
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: and theological for us.

587
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 3: Yea.

588
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: And and that can set the stage then for us

589
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: to move out into Monday through Saturday in a different

590
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: way with a different perspective.

591
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 2: Not that it'll solve all of our problems, but it.

592
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: Does give us that thing that is going to provide

593
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: us with a different depth of meaning.

594
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that that resilience that I need to then

595
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 3: confront the other realities of the day. That this is

596
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 3: not get rid of those dilemmas, those issues, those problems, Right,

597
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 3: but it gives me in the true sense of the

598
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 3: word encouragement. It gives me courage. And I need that

599
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 3: re encouragement. I need I need that that communal context

600
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 3: that says, Okay, yeah, I'm in this, but I'm not

601
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 3: in this alone. That to me is such a powerful message.

602
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 3: This does not diminish the problems, but it does share

603
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 3: the burden kind of like what Paul says in Galatians, right,

604
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 3: that there are some burdens that are pretty big, but

605
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 3: that's why we have this thing called the church. Are

606
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 3: we providing a facilitation where we can be encouraged to

607
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 3: bear the burdens of each other in the ways that

608
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 3: actually help.

609
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and definitely in that embodied fashion. Yeah, any problem,

610
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: I mean, you and I are barely in the same place.

611
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: I mean, we've been in the same place at the

612
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: same time, we've actually met, but we're very seldom in

613
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: the same place at the same time. And so it's

614
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: great to be able to have these kind of conversations.

615
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: But if this is all we ever did, yeah, and

616
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: you're just completely isolated from anyone else, it's not going

617
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: to work now. And so there has to be this

618
00:33:55,560 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: embodied piece where there is there is just something about

619
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: out that being in the presence of others that is

620
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: really gonna help. I think with the way that we feel,

621
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: with the way that we act, the way that we think,

622
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: that that embodiment is crucial.

623
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 3: And I know that's your heart with I've talked to

624
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 3: you about why you're doing these podcasts. I know whenever

625
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 3: I take these invitations, I love doing it because I'm

626
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 3: hopeful for more. Yeah, whoever's hearing this, whoever's watching this,

627
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 3: my hope is be encouraged by this. But what will

628
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 3: this activate in you in ways that'll actually push you

629
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 3: to what's better?

630
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: Right?

631
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 3: Great is listening to a podcast at one point five

632
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 3: speed is because let's be honest, that's what we're doing

633
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 3: most of the time. I gotta get through it. My hope,

634
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 3: Like my clients, I want counseling to be helpful, but

635
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 3: I want it to be moving you towards something better.

636
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that is my conviction is the

637
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: local church has to become more of the centerpiece of

638
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,959
Speaker 1: our lives and less of a marginal and voluntary piece

639
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: of it. And it's awesome that sort of embodiment aspect

640
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: that we're talking about here and we'll talk about in

641
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: the next episode is just it's crucial to that because

642
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: the local church is the closest thing you that's the

643
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: that is the physical manifestation of the Body of Christ

644
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: in your area. Yeah, it's the one you engage with,

645
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: and so we've got to attend to it. But this

646
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: has been Great's uh, let's close it off there and

647
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: we'll come back and we'll talk a little bit more

648
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: about embody.

649
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 2: This embodied the leg of the.

650
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: Stool and maybe address some issues of loneliness and how

651
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 1: embodiment can actually oddly solve loneliness issue.

652
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, so very good.

653
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: Well, thanks Ben, thanks everybody for listening, and we'll catch

654
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: on the next episode of Thinking Christian.

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Speaker 2: Take care.

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Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the

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Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on

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Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,

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Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.

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Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and yeah,