1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly propicient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer. I'm joined 10 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: by doctor Ashish Varma, and today we're going to be 11 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: discussing an article from It's a magazine journal First Things, 12 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: and First Thing's been around for a long time and 13 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about this article by James Wood, 14 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: who is an associate professor of religion and theology at 15 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: Redeemer University in Canada, and he wrote an article titled 16 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: in Defense of Cultural Christianity. As some of you may know, 17 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: I've written on my concerns with the use of Christian 18 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 1: to describe things for which Christ is not essential, things 19 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: like Christian nation, Christian nationalism. I find that descriptor to 20 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: be highly problematic for a number of different reasons. And 21 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: so this article really caught my eye and I sent 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: it over to Ashish who also read it. And we've 23 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: got some we've got some problems. So we're going to 24 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: talk about those problems today in the podcast and uh, 25 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: and see what we can do with it. Maybe maybe 26 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: it'd be good if we can kind of start just 27 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: having a dialogue and making sure that we outline appropriately 28 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: his general argument. 29 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 2: Ashish, what do you think like it's a good place 30 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 2: to start. 31 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 3: I think that's a great place to start. 32 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: Okay, go for it. Let's uh what did you think 33 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: he was trying to do? 34 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, at his base, it was something of a 35 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 3: defense for a particular kind of political theology. I was 36 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 3: reading it in which our faith should enter into our 37 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 3: public life. And on that baseline, I would say that's 38 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 3: probably unarguable. Right if we say our faith is what 39 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 3: it is, something that encompasses our very being, postures, our 40 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 3: very ways of engaging with society, our families, with everyone 41 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 3: and everything, then I suppose at that basic level he 42 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 3: ought to make a case to that degree. Now I 43 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 3: think he takes it, takes it further than just simply 44 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 3: making a case for one's faith shaping one's public life 45 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 3: to a particular rendering of public life following a political model. Right, 46 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 3: So what I mean by that is that there's been 47 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 3: I think it's worth putting meat on the bones ear 48 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 3: to say that we live in a society in which 49 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 3: we have a pretty clearly demarketed way of thinking about 50 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 3: Christian political engagement. It doesn't mean everyone thinks the same thing, 51 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 3: but there's a reason that a pretty standard eighty to 52 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 3: eighty five percent of especially the evangelical population, votes in 53 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 3: one particular way. Yeah, has one particular set of issues 54 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 3: that has become the voting block, to the point where 55 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 3: if someone violates those issues, you often hear it said 56 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 3: that this is I'm a single issue voter on this point, 57 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 3: and we know what the issues are. No need of 58 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 3: getting into that just yet. 59 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: But you have. 60 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 3: Also a very vocal group of people who want to 61 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 3: say I'm a Christian. You can't take away from me 62 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 3: that I'm a Christian and I vote very differently and 63 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 3: I don't see things now. It's a vocal group. It's 64 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 3: a consistently minority group. It's a group that you get 65 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 3: the sense wants to be able to make headway and 66 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 3: become a bigger group, but for whatever reasons, consistently remains 67 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 3: in the under fifteen percent part of the Christian population 68 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 3: publicly right, but because of their criticism that's pretty vocal, 69 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 3: and some pretty prominent people, so that the author James 70 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 3: would also among other people he references, Oh, I've suddenly, 71 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 3: it's embarrassing, I've forgotten his name. Suddenly, the theologian with 72 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 3: the Southern Baptist. 73 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: Convention, El Mohler. 74 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 3: No, no, no, the one who was the head of 75 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 3: the Ethics Commission, Russell. 76 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: Mooreus Russell Moore, Russell Moore. Yeah, so he. 77 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 3: References him, and he clearly sets himself in opposition to 78 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 3: someone like Russell Moore. But there's some prominent people like 79 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 3: Russell Moore right where he wants to sort of posture 80 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 3: against what you get the sense of it's a defense 81 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 3: in some sense of that eighty to eighty five percent 82 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 3: voting block, and I think there's a lot of assumptions 83 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 3: that take place within that. But he's trying to draw 84 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 3: in what good and benefit can we get out of 85 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,799 Speaker 3: being that voting block and being that political group who's 86 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 3: tied to a particular political form of being, while at 87 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 3: the same time acknowledging that doesn't mean that all the 88 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 3: people that are represented by the group or that appeal 89 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 3: to the group. And I think that the elephant in 90 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 3: the room is very obviously to him President Trump. Sure, 91 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 3: he mentions those leaders who may not live up to 92 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 3: our moral standards, but still position themselves to be a 93 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 3: defender of those standards. To me, it's pretty clear he's 94 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 3: talking about people like Trump, especially where he's trying to say, 95 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 3: can we continue to vote in this particular way and 96 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 3: have a political identity in this kind of way that 97 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 3: more or less aligns with a eighty to eighty five 98 00:05:54,279 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 3: percent while acknowledging that we can still say, sure, Trump 99 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 3: doesn't morally live. 100 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 2: Up to our expectations. 101 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 3: To me, that's sort of the that's my reading. Does 102 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 3: that seem fair to you or do you think I'm 103 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 3: being overly ungenerous? 104 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: No? I think that's that's about where I land on 105 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: it as well. I think that the only thing I 106 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: would add is his what I see as his underlying 107 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: thesis is this idea that the good, the true, and 108 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,679 Speaker 1: the beautiful are good, true, and beautiful on their own terms. 109 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: They don't need to be justified by, for instance, conversion 110 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: or revivalism or a you know, this sense that they 111 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: should be able to conform people to a particular mode 112 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: of not only behavior, but a being. And so I 113 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: do think that's an undercurrent within the piece that he's writing. 114 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: So for instance, he'll he talks about David French a 115 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: little bit and his position to putting or his concerns 116 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: about putting the Tank Commandments in schools. I would freely 117 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: admit I've written pieces on this. I have concerns about 118 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: putting the Tank Commandments in schools. I have concerns for 119 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: different reasons than either French or would suggest. But ultimately, 120 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: what he's playing with in French is that he's saying 121 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: that French is arguing that when these ten Commandments are 122 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: put up in schools, what they create is hypocrisy, people 123 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: who are performing something that they don't really believe. 124 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: Now, when I looked. 125 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: For the article of French online, what I found was 126 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: he's really arguing that, or at least in this piece, 127 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: he argues that there is a Christian mysticism that he's 128 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: concerned about, and that Christian mysticism involves this notion that 129 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: if we put the Ten Commandments up in school, it 130 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: will have such an aura that you know, conveys itself 131 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: to students that they will automatically somehow become Christians. 132 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: Right. So this sort of magical aspect of the. 133 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: Ten Commandments, like what conjures up in my mind is 134 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: when the dude at the end of Raiders of the 135 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: Loss Art touches the arc of the Covenant and his 136 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: face melts off. 137 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 2: Right. 138 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: So it's that sort of aura and magical aura that 139 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: the tech Commandments put off and French seems to be 140 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: arguing against that. 141 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 2: Would want to say, no. 142 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 1: If you've got the Ten Commandments in the classroom, the 143 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: students are introduced to these things, and that introduction can 144 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: then lead them to recognize that the good of Christianity 145 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: is not simply good but also true. He actually makes 146 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: that point later in the piece, not necessarily about the 147 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: Ten Commandments, but about Christianity in general. And so I 148 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: think he's got a real concern that Christians not decouple 149 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: themselves from the good, the true, and the beautiful, however 150 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: partial and however I would say, non theological in public life, 151 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: that they continue to recognize that. 152 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 2: But ultimately I think. 153 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: He then collapses what is a necessary distinction in my 154 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: mind between the partial understandings of the good, the true, 155 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: and the beautiful that we can gather from creation more generally, 156 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: and the sharpening and further constraint of that that comes 157 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: with the self disclosure of God and allows us to 158 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: see as Christians and recognize that Christ is actually an authority. 159 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: I don't think he does a good job throughout the 160 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: article of really recognizing that there is a true distinction 161 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: there and that collapsing that distinction, even in using something 162 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: like Christian culture, is deeply problematic and doesn't do I 163 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: think he argues that it tends to do. So that'd 164 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: just be my sort of additional two cents to throw 165 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: in there on top of what you noted. 166 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's worth also mentioning the kind of 167 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 3: narrative he's working with here. 168 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are. 169 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 3: A number of authors. It's pretty common narrative that he's 170 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 3: taking for granted, and it goes something like this. You know, 171 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 3: there there was the Roman Empire, and in that Roman Empire, 172 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 3: this thing emerged that we know of now as the 173 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 3: Christian faith, and that Christian faith, though initially was in 174 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 3: some sort of position of opposition right or some sort 175 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 3: of position of minority not in power, and over time 176 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 3: that Roman Empire becomes Christianized and becoming Christianized, this thing 177 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 3: emerges that we can think of as Christen dumb, where 178 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 3: there's this interesting interwoven reality between what's ultimately papacy and throne. 179 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 3: There's a vying back and forth. But what emerges from 180 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 3: that are these collection of Western and Northern European nation 181 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 3: states that owe their identity especially to the working out 182 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 3: of a particular logic of Christian culture. And that sets 183 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 3: forth an idea that becomes the United States of America, 184 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 3: and certain certain Christian principles form not just the moral 185 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 3: fabric of what we think of as the Western world 186 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 3: and the the USA in particular, but also a larger 187 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 3: project that becomes something of a blessing to the world. 188 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 3: He doesn't use the word blessing, but he speaks of 189 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 3: the gains of this kind of civilization that are due 190 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 3: to the effects of Christian moral reality. That's right, and 191 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 3: that sort of thing, whether or not explicitly acknowledged, enables 192 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 3: the Western world and especially the US, to become leaders 193 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 3: in make the world in some sense a better place 194 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 3: for everybody. But over time there's a degradation and you 195 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,599 Speaker 3: start to have a slipping from those moral Christian principles, 196 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 3: and the result is the awakening of he actually uses 197 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 3: the word awoke reality. And because that you have now 198 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 3: a slippage from that better version of civilization where people thrived, 199 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 3: and now you have a group of people, especially through 200 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 3: media and political avenues, are trying to recover through policy, 201 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 3: through political theological ways of being that image of the 202 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 3: Western world and again particularly the US tied to that 203 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 3: Christian moral framework. And sometimes that is meant an alliance 204 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 3: with leaders who don't fit that in their active life, 205 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 3: but they do fit it in terms of ideologically what 206 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: they want to put forth. And he says, of course, 207 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 3: the perfect is if the leaders both ideologically in the 208 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 3: right place and morally. 209 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, but if. 210 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 3: I only have to pick one, well, then we'll pick 211 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 3: the ideological and deal with the fact of the moral. 212 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 3: And that justifies a larger movement to re christianize the 213 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 3: moral framework, because ultimately the good that comes out of 214 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 3: that could be that people become followers of Jesus in 215 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 3: the process. Then he has his anecdotes of people that 216 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 3: have successfully become followers of Christ because of that moral framework, 217 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 3: and that's very explicitly the narrative he's working with. I 218 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 3: flushed it out a little bit more than he does, 219 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 3: but he doesn't make any qualms about making sure you 220 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 3: know that he's working with that kind of narrative. 221 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I agree with that. 222 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: I think part of the rupture of that narrative that 223 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: I would sort of tease out and that I've been 224 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: pretty actively working on but don't have, like. 225 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: I haven't done all the research on it. Right. 226 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: But in the intellectual history of liberalism, I believe it's 227 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 1: MiNet who wrote this. 228 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 2: He talks about the. 229 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: Possibility of liberalism, liberalism principles, the notion of human rights 230 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: being claimed by the church, particularly the Catholic Church, but 231 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: Christianity more generally only really being an option after the 232 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: church's political power has been broken. And so I find 233 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: that to be a really interesting notion because it does 234 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: so disrupt this sort of continuity that you describe in 235 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: this narrative Ashish, right, where it's a linear move all 236 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: the way through to America and now we have these 237 00:14:54,120 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: Christian principles that have been inculcated into the governing system. 238 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 2: What I am sort of. 239 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: Finding as I do more and more research on this, 240 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: is that it's possible that within that what otherwise seems 241 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: like a contiguous narrative, what we've actually had happen is 242 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: a new humanist philosophy has come into play that we 243 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: would generally call liberalism. 244 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 2: Liberalism is the notion that individuals have rights. 245 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: What I mean by it is that liberalism is this 246 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: notion that individuals have rights, that individuals have freedoms, and 247 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: that there is a sovereign individual who sort of owns 248 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: their destiny, let's say at times that has been couched 249 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: as yes, they own that destiny within a certain ought right, 250 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: that they ought to act in these certain ways. That 251 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: there's a sort of either a theological or social obligation 252 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: that constrains what that looks like. But ultimately the underlying 253 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: philosophy of liberalism doesn't claim any of that. Those are 254 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: things that are put on top of liberalism I think 255 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: as restraining devices. But what we really end up with 256 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: is something akin to what we see all the time 257 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: in judges, is that the people are doing what's right 258 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: in their own eyes, and they have to be pulled 259 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: back occasionally to this sort of more yooistic understanding of 260 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: what life is supposed to look like. The point is 261 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: that that disruption in that continuous narrative that you've just 262 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: laid out, I think is really crucial and highlights this 263 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: notion that Christianity and Christian language, theology, biblical versus all 264 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: those kind of things may have been, and I would 265 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: say probably have been co opted into liberalism as not 266 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: necessarily a means of control. 267 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 2: But I like the way Robert Bella. 268 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: Puts it when he talks about American civil religion is 269 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: that he says that American civil religion wasn't necessarily anti 270 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: cleric or militantly secular, but it's using and employing, co 271 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: opting this Christian language and religious language into its articulations 272 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: in order to avoid friction with religious groups and to 273 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: advance national aims. Now, we could frame that as you know, 274 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: in the conspiracy theory sort of approach, as you know, oh, 275 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: we're all being manipulated and this is horrible, or whatever. 276 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: I think the simpler way to put it is there's 277 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: a counter discipleship movement, that is, government that has no 278 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: particular vested interest in conforming people to the image of Christ, 279 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: to the insofar as doing so would undermine its own authority. 280 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: And so there's this weird dynamic that I think would 281 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: really miss it, which is, yes, we can still identify 282 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: the good, the true, and the beautiful in our everyday life. 283 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: That's an appropriate thing for us to do as Christians. 284 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: I think we're part of our calling is to recognize 285 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: reality and goodness, truth and beauty would be part of 286 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: that reality. 287 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 2: But there's also a. 288 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: Way that the narrowing, the partial recognition of the good, 289 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: the true, and the beautiful becomes a counter discipleship movement 290 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: that's forming people away from conformity to Christ and encouraging 291 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 1: them to settle for a partial understanding of goodness, truth 292 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: and beauty that Christians just simply can't embrace. We have 293 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: to point beyond it. And so that's a little bit 294 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: of rambling on this Ashish. I'll let you parse that 295 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: out a little bit. 296 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't see that as rambling. I think that 297 00:18:54,000 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 3: sets up an important contrast. What you're pointing out, whether 298 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 3: you're meaning to or not, sets up a real question 299 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 3: as to whether his narrative, that this implicit narrative that 300 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 3: what is working from yeah, is a correct narrative. Yeah, 301 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 3: Because His version of it is is that we've had 302 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 3: a slippage, right, and having that slippage from this otherwise good, 303 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 3: good program has meant that there's been a need to 304 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 3: have a certain alliance with those who might fail personally 305 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 3: and their moral ability to live up to what is 306 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 3: good and true and beautiful. But the policies that they 307 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 3: have affirm those things. And so we compromise. And we compromise, 308 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 3: not least because the long term is important, but also 309 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 3: because perhaps that compromise for the sake of the ideological 310 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 3: might bring about the come to Jesus moment, the real 311 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 3: come to Jesus mond right, for those who are otherwise 312 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 3: on the right side of the ideological boundary. Yeah, and 313 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 3: I think what you're describing forces us to reckon with 314 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 3: is that story. Is that narrative correct, because we can 315 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 3: narrate this actually in a very different way. I don't 316 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 3: think at the moment that's the time to provide the 317 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 3: full scale alternative narrative. Yeah, but we'd have to ask 318 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 3: why is this narrative or that narrative or some other 319 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 3: narrative the correct one. And what we need to get 320 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 3: into is the nitty gritty of is the story is 321 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 3: the presumption is the optimism of what is the true, 322 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 3: the good, and the beautiful? Really all that good, all 323 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 3: that true, all that beautiful, right, And I think we 324 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 3: can draw that into question YEA. For one, I think 325 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 3: an anecdote that seems completely unrelated might be the way forward. 326 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 3: And I both belong to a generation where our parents 327 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 3: were the Beatles generation, right, Yeah, And I've noticed something 328 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 3: over time. I've never really had an affinity for the Beatles. 329 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 3: Please forgive me anyone listening out there. Yeah, And I 330 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 3: don't know if you and I have ever had this conversation, 331 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 3: but I've I've found that the vast majority of let's 332 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 3: call them my light skinned friends have have this special 333 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 3: place in their heart for the Beatles. A Beatles song 334 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 3: comes on and they get excited. The mention of the 335 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 3: Beatles comes on, they get excited. Or I love to 336 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 3: ask my students this question just sort of as it 337 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 3: get to know, you exercise if you had one song 338 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 3: you could listen to for the rest of your life, 339 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 3: only one song, don't have to listen to it every moment, 340 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 3: but one song? What would it be? The Beatles frequently. 341 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 2: Pop up in that list interesting, and I. 342 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 3: Find myself in the position of I I don't dislike 343 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 3: the Beatles. In truth, right, then, with the exception of 344 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 3: a handful of really popular ones, if a Beatles song 345 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 3: came on, I wouldn't actually know that it was a 346 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 3: Beatles song. Yeah, yeah, now is my Could you interpret 347 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 3: me as disliking the Beatles, Sure you could, yeah, But 348 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 3: what would be more faithful of an interpretation of what's 349 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 3: going on with me is that it just doesn't have 350 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 3: the same sort of emotional existential pull on my heart, 351 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 3: not least because even though I belonged to the same 352 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 3: group who grew up having their parents listen to the Beatles, 353 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 3: I didn't actually grow up listening to the Beatles. If 354 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 3: I heard a Beatles song, it would have been on 355 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 3: accident and I wouldn't have known it was the Beatles, right. 356 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 3: And case in point would be I've known of the 357 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 3: Yellow Submarine since I was very little. It wasn't until honestly, 358 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 3: I was a grad student that I knew that that 359 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 3: was a Beatles Beatles song, right. Conversely, what I grew 360 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 3: up with was really the the popular people of the 361 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 3: same variety in in Indian cultural music, right. 362 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 2: Yeah. 363 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 3: So if you come to my house. You'd, you know, 364 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 3: my sister and I like to joke about this, you'd 365 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 3: be hearing RODJ. Kapoor or Judged It sing. My dad 366 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 3: had all of these albums that were he had just 367 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 3: there were albums he made, especially when CD burners became 368 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 3: a thing, and it was just Judgas Thing one, Judgus 369 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 3: Thing two all the way up to like ten, and 370 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 3: you'd see them randomly sitting around. So our joke ended 371 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 3: up being, look, I found it judg just sing eight 372 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 3: eight right. But truthfully, when I hear and it was 373 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 3: my father's music. But when I hear that music, I 374 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 3: do actually get that nostalgia today, whether it be him 375 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 3: a RODJ. Kapoor or what really gets me ticking is 376 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 3: the beauty of classical Indian music, you know. Now, I 377 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 3: say all this to say that there's a very particular 378 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 3: way of being in the world that all of us 379 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 3: just experience by default. Right, We can't experience life in general. 380 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 3: We always experience life in particular, and whatever is that 381 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 3: goes into the formation of those particular ways of being 382 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 3: in the world are going to have an emotional pull 383 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,959 Speaker 3: on us. Because again, we don't know things in general. 384 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 3: We don't know things intuitively in the abstract, we know 385 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 3: them through the formation in places, in time, with people contexts, right, 386 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 3: and we call those things together cultural ways of being. Now, 387 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 3: I bring all this to say that the way that 388 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 3: what is describing his narrative reflects, I think a very 389 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 3: particular cultural way of being in the world that actually 390 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 3: finds itself quite an opposition to the ways that many 391 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 3: other people have experienced the world. Yeah, I'll be specific 392 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 3: with this one now, right. I remember when nine to 393 00:24:55,280 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 3: eleven happened. Obviously for a majority of Americans, it was 394 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 3: a very emotionally elevated experience, but the way that fallout 395 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 3: came from that was very different from very different people. 396 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 3: The very day of that, I was a student at 397 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 3: the University of Iowa. I had a friend who was 398 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 3: Indian like me, and he had that big thick beard. 399 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 3: And we Indians we can grow big thick beards very young. Right. 400 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 3: I was the guy in my high school basketball team 401 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 3: with the full goateee like I was the envy of 402 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 3: other people because of how I could grow facial are 403 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 3: At this point in time, it was my friend who 404 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 3: had the full thick beard. South Indian, which generally means 405 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 3: a lot darker than me, but there were stereotypes built 406 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 3: around that perception. Dark skinned, big thick beard, and he's 407 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 3: on campus transportation and he's being yelled at by his 408 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 3: fellow students, our fellow students to just go home, and he, 409 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 3: you know, he was He was not one to back 410 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 3: down from sarcastic moments, and so he'd reply in a 411 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 3: way that I just kept telling him, Dude, you can't 412 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 3: say that they're gonna they're gonna kill you. They might 413 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 3: actually kill you. But his response was to Clinton, Iowa, 414 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 3: you want me to go home to Clinton, Iowa? Why, 415 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 3: you know? 416 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? 417 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 3: And while I didn't experience that on the bus, I 418 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 3: was clean shaven, so I didn't have some of those 419 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 3: stereotypes that people were interpreting in certain kinds of ways. 420 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 3: Every single time I would go and still to this day, 421 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 3: I go through the airport by myself, I get randomly selected. 422 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 3: Right now, why is that the case, Well, it's frankly, 423 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 3: because there's a way of being in the world that 424 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 3: is very much tied to our particularity, and it's tied 425 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,239 Speaker 3: to all these metrics for being in the world. And 426 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 3: so I remember in this moment someone getting really rowled 427 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 3: up about how America because lost its way and we 428 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 3: need to go back. And one of my friends said, 429 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 3: I just asked him, I just an honest question. What 430 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 3: is this previous context you're talking about that we've slipped from? 431 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 3: And he said, well, it's pre Obama. I said, okay, 432 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 3: well this was during Obama's the Obama presidency. 433 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 434 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 3: I said, that's strange because pre Obama was still nine 435 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 3: to eleven and ever since nine to eleven, this is 436 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 3: my experience. And then I began to actually go through 437 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,479 Speaker 3: other sorts of things that were pre Obama and pre 438 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 3: nine to eleven, which were not particularly good experiences, that 439 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 3: were largely based upon people would look at me and 440 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 3: have certain presumptions. Yeah, I was being refused service in 441 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 3: businesses where was the person who's refusing service made no 442 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 3: qualms about making it clear it's because she looked at me, 443 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 3: and the way I look right. This is these are 444 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 3: to get at Wood's thesis, or at least the undercurrents 445 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 3: of a thesis that actually trouble me. That I want 446 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 3: to say, for all of the things that he wants 447 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,120 Speaker 3: to point to, he wants to point to these particular 448 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 3: moral values that come from particular ways of embodying Christian morality, 449 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 3: Christian tradition, Christendom that represent a way of being in 450 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 3: the world for him, that actually quite truncate reality. Right. 451 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 3: What about those of us who, from that same supposed 452 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 3: reality actually experience the exact opposite of what we want 453 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 3: to claim the person a message of Christ is all about, right, 454 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 3: whether that be racism, whether that be the malformation of 455 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 3: gender politics, whether that be colonialism. Right, maybe the idea 456 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 3: of Christendom is actually not what he makes it to be. 457 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 3: In other words, the good is what I want to 458 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 3: draw into question here that he represents in a particular 459 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 3: kind of triumphalistic way that I'm not so quite sure 460 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 3: is in fact the way we should be identifying the 461 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 3: person of Christ. 462 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good, and I think I see that in 463 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: a couple of ways in this essay. The first one 464 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: is his citation of Kuiper, where he talks about Christianity 465 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: being a Christian culture, being one in which Christian ideas 466 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: have had a significant influence. 467 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: I really hate that definition. 468 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: It makes no real sense to me because it gets 469 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: at the way you've described it. That understanding of christian 470 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: opens up all of these sort of deformations of christian 471 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: It has no in other words, it's decoupled from any 472 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: sort of governance that would preclude some of the negative 473 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: practices that you're kind of gesturing to and talking about 474 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: in your life. I think that what happens is when 475 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: we talk about that Christian Christianity or Christian culture as 476 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: a culture influenced by Christianity, what we're really saying is 477 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: a culture that has decided that they're incomplete understanding of 478 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: the good, true, and the beautiful is going to serve 479 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: as if it's complete. In other words, there's an early 480 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: closure of the question of what is good, and I 481 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: think that in that early closure, what you end up 482 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: with is you end up with something that This is 483 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: a guy to my dissertation on Jeffrey Olic. He talks 484 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: about this in terms of collective remembering, and part of 485 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: what he's reacting to is an earlier collector remembering scholarship. 486 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: They would refer to it as the collective memory, and 487 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: he argues that this is a reification or freezing of memory. 488 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: When memory is really something that's organic, it moves, we 489 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: never quite capture it the whole way, and so he 490 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: develops these sort of counter theses to help people understand 491 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: cultural or collective memory in more of a process relational 492 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: sort of a way. And I think that we need 493 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: probably something very similar to that. When we're looking at 494 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: the good, the true, and the beautiful, it is not 495 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: that the true, the good, and the beautiful are changing. 496 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: We don't determine the good, the true, and the beautiful. 497 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: We recognize them. And so the process relational method that 498 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: we use to sort of move through this, the particularities 499 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: that we need to identify. The moment to moment realization 500 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: that we don't have as strong a conception of the good, true, 501 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: and the beautiful as. 502 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 2: We thought we did. 503 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: Is why we need the process relational method. It is 504 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: not that the true, the good, and the beautiful are 505 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: just up for grabs. It's that they're so expansive and 506 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: complex that we can't grasp them in one bite. These 507 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: are not in a moose boosh, they're you know, sort 508 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: of a seven course meal, and so we're eating them 509 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: across time. And I think again, to sort of push 510 00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: back up to that bigger claim, what does it mean 511 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: for Christ to have authority over all things, including the 512 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: determination of the good, the true, and the beautiful. This 513 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: is even a prior question that would never quite I 514 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: think gives due credit to in his conception is that, yes, 515 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: these partial views of the good, the true, and the 516 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: beautiful can produce good things. I think it's impossible for 517 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: something that God has defined as good, true, and beautiful 518 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: not to produce something that is that we could identify 519 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: as a positive benefit. The difficulty is that as those 520 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: partial understandings are coded back into a culture, what ends 521 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: up happening is there's a negative influx or a negative 522 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: pressure that's also created that deforms the way we understand 523 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: the world simply because we're dealing with partial information. And 524 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: so there's this ten that I feel and would that 525 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: I think he's creating this sort of inappropriate closure, which 526 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,959 Speaker 1: I think is what you're pointing to to some degree. 527 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 2: That's my summary, at least of an aspect of what 528 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: you're pointing to. 529 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: It's this inappropriate closure that then is used as a 530 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: basis for everything else that comes after. And to my reading, 531 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: what we're really left with here is we're left with 532 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: a cultural construction. And this will draw on some of 533 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: like Kevin Flat's work or Philip Rife's work, where culture 534 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: is transliterating the sacred order into the social order. If 535 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: that sacred order is not fully understood or understood in. 536 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 2: A robust fashion. 537 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: And recognized as being more than any culture could actually 538 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: contain or transliterate, I think culture would work better. There's 539 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: a humility in that sort of admission that we're not 540 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: capable of understanding fully the sacred order, and so we 541 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: have to keep adjusting ourselves to it. 542 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 2: There's a fine tuning that happens across time. 543 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: I think what I see and would is a tendency 544 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: to say we understand the sacred order, our culture just 545 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,359 Speaker 1: needs to transliterate that, and then our social order would 546 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: reflect it. And that's the part of it that I 547 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: think is very problematic and why I have a lot 548 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: of trouble. My entry pointed to this is a lot 549 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: different than yours. My entry point is I have a 550 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: lot of trouble calling that Christian. I do not understand 551 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: how we can sit back and call any culture Christian 552 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: or people cultural Christians right in the sense that they 553 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: are have an affinity toward what he calls I think 554 00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 1: the the civilizational benefits of Christianity. I think I can 555 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: enjoy the benefits of a lot of different things, I 556 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily attribute that description to myself, right, I enjoy 557 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 1: the benefits of capitalism, What I really call myself a capitalist, 558 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,399 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's the designation. 559 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 2: That I want, even if other people would give it 560 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 2: to me. 561 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: Right, and so in that as a tension, it may 562 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: describe certain aspects of how I operate, but it's certainly 563 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 1: not my aspiration to be the greatest capitalist on the planet. 564 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: At the same time, I do enjoy certain of the 565 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: civilizational benefits of that system, same way I would say 566 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,479 Speaker 1: about liberalism. And so how can we apply that same 567 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: logic to Christianity When to me, what Christianity is is 568 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: a wholesale giving over of oneself to Christ. And so 569 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: definitionally it doesn't make sense. And I think substantively it's 570 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: not just a word game in my estimation, it's actually 571 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: a substance problem that these that term in and of 572 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 1: itself reflex of reality that gets lost in what Wood 573 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: is saying here. 574 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 2: So I absolutely agree with you. 575 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:23,240 Speaker 1: I think that the way I'm articulating at that inappropriate closure, 576 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: that that closing off the good too soon, and assuming 577 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: we understand what it is, is a big part of 578 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: the problem that I have with woods Essa here. 579 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I might use the word foreclosure to describe what 580 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 3: you're talking about. 581 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 2: Fair. Yeah, that's good. 582 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 3: And just to be specific, let's use the example you 583 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 3: just gave of capitalism. 584 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:47,919 Speaker 2: Yeah. 585 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 3: I think the sort of move that what is making 586 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 3: would be to say that capitalism is one of the 587 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 3: cultural goods that come out of a particular, particularly Christian 588 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 3: way of organizing society. Right. And the criticism that at 589 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,240 Speaker 3: least I'm wanting to make is that way of constring 590 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 3: things already elevates capitalism to the good, and that would 591 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 3: be the foreclosure, right, Yes, And so now any critique 592 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 3: of that, and I think you have as well. But 593 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 3: I've certainly seen where any attempt to criticize the sorts 594 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 3: of programs that capitalism has created, the sorts of emphasies 595 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 3: and loves that it has created, results in people saying, oh, well, 596 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 3: you're filling in the blank, and that's just heretical, that's 597 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 3: not Christian. But I want to say alternatively, and I 598 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 3: think this goes in line with what you're saying, capitalism 599 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,799 Speaker 3: as a particular good, and I mean that in the 600 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 3: sense of a thing that comes out of a program 601 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 3: is not necessarily a good. Now, I'm not going to 602 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 3: foreclose and assume that it's not good, but just to start, 603 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 3: it's not inherently good, not least because the thing that 604 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 3: it comes out of is not Christian. It comes out 605 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 3: of a particular program that, actually, I would argue contra 606 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 3: to the way that Wood is thinking. It comes out 607 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 3: out of a cultural program of civility that actually undermines 608 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 3: some of the key tenets of what the Gospel calls good. 609 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 610 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,720 Speaker 3: Right, It foists itself upon another, it creates hierarchical versions 611 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 3: of society. Now, does that mean I'm advocating being done 612 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:29,240 Speaker 3: with capitalism. 613 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 2: No. 614 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 3: I think there's a conversation to be had there. Sure, 615 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 3: But I'm not going to assume that capitalism just is 616 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 3: the good and that's what he's doing. That's the foreclosure. 617 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 3: And I'm not going to assume anything that opposes capitalism therefore, 618 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 3: which he would have to do, is therefore an attack. 619 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:46,839 Speaker 2: On the good. 620 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 3: No, there might be real critiques to be made there, 621 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 3: and that's where we have the beginning of a conversation 622 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 3: that can now understand the good and plurality. And I 623 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 3: think it's important to have the good and plurality, not 624 00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 3: because we're advocating this sort of thing in which we 625 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 3: see say, well, now anything has the possibility to be good. No, 626 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 3: absolutely not. There are things that are absolutely not good. 627 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 2: Right. 628 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 3: But what we can begin to recognize, and I think 629 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 3: this is actually more biblical of a principle than what 630 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 3: he's laying forward, is that the Book of Acts begins 631 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 3: with this notion that the Gospel is something that is 632 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 3: not a bounded set reality. The question that governs the 633 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 3: Book of Acts is does Jesus as the Messiah that 634 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 3: whether or not it was ready for it, whether or 635 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 3: not it was recognizing of it belongs to the fulfillment 636 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:41,280 Speaker 3: of the covenant with biblical Israel yep as a blessing 637 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 3: to the nations. Does it require people therefore to enter 638 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 3: into the covenant specifically with Israel or is there a 639 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 3: gentile aspect of fulfillment that's at play here? And if 640 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 3: there is a gentile aspect of fulfillment, dear, does it 641 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 3: create second class citizen right, which which gets you to 642 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 3: temple imagery in the Old Testament, where you have courts 643 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 3: that are available to different people, and that creates a 644 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 3: far and a near dynamic. 645 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 2: And the book. 646 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 3: The message of the Book of Acts is first and foremost, No, 647 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 3: it does not create a linguistic singular. That's really important, 648 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 3: right chapter two, the miracle at players that everyone within 649 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 3: their own tongue. Here's the message that the disciples are 650 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 3: preaching in the power of the Spirit, which I take 651 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 3: to be a really powerful message to begin to break 652 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 3: down the sense that even Jewishness would be one singular thing, right, 653 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,800 Speaker 3: because all the people present in that moment are Jewish 654 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:42,839 Speaker 3: people in diaspora. 655 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 2: Yep. 656 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 3: But that leads the way into recognizing in the Book 657 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 3: of Acts, the opening up of that covenant is actually 658 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 3: meant also for the gentiles, not as second class citizens, 659 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,320 Speaker 3: but as people who can come on their own terms, 660 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 3: which inherently then if I can use that musical imagery 661 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 3: I had before, it makes it possible as a metaphor 662 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 3: anyway to begin to say, people who grew up with 663 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 3: music like the Beatles can recognize in the Beatles good music. Yeah, 664 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 3: while people who grow up with judget thing right might 665 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,240 Speaker 3: think of Doublin music as good music. And it's okay 666 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 3: that I don't really care one way or the other 667 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,879 Speaker 3: about the Beatles. I don't dislike them I just don't care. 668 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 3: And it makes it okay that someone who grew up 669 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 3: loving the Beatles couldn't care one less about Judge thing 670 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 3: or Dublin music or Sitthoud music. Right that there's the 671 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:38,359 Speaker 3: possibility of good now to be realized in each as 672 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 3: a particular way of being in the world, and neither 673 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 3: can foreclose upon the other. Now, the very trajectory that 674 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 3: what gives us actually does do just that that foreclosure 675 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,240 Speaker 3: not just in the present but historically. The very idea 676 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 3: of Christendom is a magisterial, overpowering way of thinking that 677 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 3: goes to the nations and says the role of uh, 678 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 3: the role of Christendom is to colonize the nations to 679 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 3: make them more like us. And the justification of it 680 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 3: right down to Papal bull is to say that this 681 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 3: is what enables us to be able to bring the 682 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 3: grace of Christ wherever we go. Yeah, but that forecloses 683 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 3: now even on the good in a way that contradicts 684 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 3: the Book of Acts, and so at its heart, I 685 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 3: think the very starting point that what is working from 686 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 3: there presumes a certain kind of thing about the good 687 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:38,279 Speaker 3: that's foreclosed that causes him to miss why someone might 688 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 3: actually say the cultural goods that he's referring to, that 689 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 3: he wants to recover, that he's willing to compromise on 690 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 3: the particular morals for the sake of the larger ideology, 691 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:54,399 Speaker 3: might itself actually not be a good Yeah. 692 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: And I think the there's a couple of things I 693 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,439 Speaker 1: want to I want to throw in here. Number one, 694 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: your point about acts, I think is absolutely right. I 695 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: think is Stephen's speech in the way that he tries 696 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 1: to you know, he's accused of speaking against the law 697 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,280 Speaker 1: of Moses in the temple, and then he narrates throughout 698 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 1: Israelite history all these ways that God acts outside of 699 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: the land, outside of the Temple, outside you know, with 700 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,799 Speaker 1: non Jews, you know, all these different areas. I think 701 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: that's really crucial to understand what he's doing there. He's 702 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,240 Speaker 1: creating this sense that the Jews have closed off God 703 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: to the Temple, They've trapped him there, as if he's 704 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: a genie in a bottle and the temple they go 705 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 1: and rub it and then ask God for wishes and 706 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,839 Speaker 1: he grants them. And Stephen's like, no, this is never 707 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: how God has worked. You're missing it. You've narrowed it 708 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,919 Speaker 1: down too far, and in narrowing down too far, now 709 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,799 Speaker 1: you've lost the ability to discern these other things that 710 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: God is doing. And that's why you're really missing Messiah, 711 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 1: That's why you're missing the movement of the Spirit. And 712 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 1: so that narrowing is really crucial. That foreclosure where is 713 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:57,560 Speaker 1: what we're calling it, we could also think of it 714 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 1: in terms of narrowing. So I think that's a really 715 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 1: crucial aspect here. I think the other side of this 716 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:06,840 Speaker 1: that I would say, and this is where I think 717 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,359 Speaker 1: would is maybe getting caught up in his polemic a 718 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: little bit too much. I think what he's really genuinely 719 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 1: trying to say is that. 720 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 2: Christians need to recognize reality. 721 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: Right, if I had to just summarize what I think 722 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,399 Speaker 1: is most basic underlying thesis is is that Christians need 723 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 1: to recognize reality that's getting caught up in all of 724 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: these other things that you're talking about, that's getting caught 725 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,000 Speaker 1: up in this idea that and when we recognize the reality, 726 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 1: then we're going to see that liberalism is correct, or 727 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 1: that you know, capitalism is correct, or that you know, 728 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,279 Speaker 1: we could really call this legitimately a Christian culture. And 729 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,439 Speaker 1: I think where I see that coming out is in 730 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: his discussion of two things. One and I'll start with 731 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: this one first because I think I want you to 732 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:06,239 Speaker 1: comment on the second one. But number one, there's this 733 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:11,239 Speaker 1: notion that the governing body should be opening space for 734 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,840 Speaker 1: the church to be the church, and that this like 735 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: we would call this religious liberty in the United States, right, 736 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 1: But this, this willingness for the governing body to in 737 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,359 Speaker 1: some way, shape or form protect the church is one 738 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,759 Speaker 1: of the functions of the governing body that it performs 739 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 1: when it's performing well, and this is sort of a 740 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,880 Speaker 1: minimum standard for a governing body, right, you know, if 741 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: you're going to have a quote unquote good governing body, 742 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:41,480 Speaker 1: this is just one of the things they have to do. 743 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,279 Speaker 1: My concern with that is obviously not that I hate 744 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,319 Speaker 1: religious liberty and I think we should get rid of it. 745 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:49,919 Speaker 2: But that. 746 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 1: We're The way this tends to get framed is we're 747 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: fighting awful hard for something that is evident is not 748 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,600 Speaker 1: going to hold. And so that notion of a government 749 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,279 Speaker 1: that is going to cede authority to the Kingdom of 750 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 1: God and without ever acknowledging Christ is sort of it's 751 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 1: very brittle, and I think we see this in something 752 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: like the Book of Revelation, where you know the economic 753 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,920 Speaker 1: and political forces as well as the false religion combine 754 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 1: in order to sway people away from. 755 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 2: These are the peoples who live on. 756 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: The earth, right, who dwell on the earth. These are 757 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,680 Speaker 1: the folks who are going to vehemently oppose and reject 758 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,760 Speaker 1: the Gospel. And this is that sort of negative formation 759 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,759 Speaker 1: that I think would doesn't give enough credibility to So 760 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,839 Speaker 1: can God use a Nebekinezer and a Cyrus in order 761 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,360 Speaker 1: to produce good things in the empire? Is it possible 762 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:54,239 Speaker 1: for God to intend something different than Joseph's brothers who 763 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,000 Speaker 1: sell him into slavery in Egypt? 764 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,919 Speaker 2: Of course it is, Of course it is right. 765 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:01,920 Speaker 1: God can do all of those things, and he can 766 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,640 Speaker 1: do all of those things simultaneously. I'm not sure how 767 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:10,480 Speaker 1: that's a defense of a cultural Christianity. So what I 768 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:12,600 Speaker 1: want to be careful to say is that I'm not 769 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,600 Speaker 1: saying that God can't use the cultural Christianity. I'm simply 770 00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:20,200 Speaker 1: suggesting that assuming that we have a cultural Christianity does 771 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,280 Speaker 1: not mean that God is going to use it positively 772 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,920 Speaker 1: in every case, nor does it mean that there is 773 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,600 Speaker 1: not a negative feedback loop that we should be very 774 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:34,400 Speaker 1: wary of, because cultural Christianity has, in my estimation, a 775 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 1: diminishing a way of diminishing the Church's witness. 776 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:40,680 Speaker 2: So I throw that in there sort. 777 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,759 Speaker 1: Of as a, I think, an extension of what your 778 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: argument is. But the one that I really like to 779 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:46,040 Speaker 1: get to, and i'd like to hear your comments on, 780 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: is he speaks of the idea of I'll say, faking 781 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:56,279 Speaker 1: it till you make it habituation with regard to virtue, right, 782 00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:00,200 Speaker 1: And so the idea is that this is the way 783 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:04,160 Speaker 1: he argues it. I think I'm being fair that as 784 00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:09,840 Speaker 1: people behave along the moral as people behave in moral ways, 785 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,480 Speaker 1: even if they don't believe that behanding in a moral 786 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,800 Speaker 1: way matters, or even that the moral that they're behaving 787 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:21,319 Speaker 1: toward is real, there's the potential for them to cultivate 788 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:26,279 Speaker 1: that virtue within them. So I can pretend to be courageous, 789 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 1: and at some point down the road, the more I 790 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:32,560 Speaker 1: pretend to be courageous, I'll just become courageous. I don't 791 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:38,400 Speaker 1: necessarily disagree with that, right, but I also think, again, 792 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,879 Speaker 1: when I think of that notion of habituation, it's hard 793 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,120 Speaker 1: for me to get Pierre boards out of my head. Right, 794 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,520 Speaker 1: the habitist that is structured into a society that chases 795 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 1: after a capital, and so the habituation to which we 796 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,640 Speaker 1: ultimately conform. It seems to me that we're very seldom 797 00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:03,360 Speaker 1: conforming to a theological virtue, let's say, a full and 798 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:07,359 Speaker 1: complete understanding of that virtue, right, And I don't mean 799 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,000 Speaker 1: that in an absolute sense, but a full and complete 800 00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,560 Speaker 1: understanding of that virtue that sits above our social structures and. 801 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,719 Speaker 2: That we can aim for. Right. 802 00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,520 Speaker 1: What we're generally conforming to is some sort of a 803 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,800 Speaker 1: selected or nuanced understanding of a given virtue that still 804 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,120 Speaker 1: allows us to interact within the social constructs in which 805 00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:27,680 Speaker 1: we're apart. 806 00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 2: Right. 807 00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,520 Speaker 1: So there's a level of aggressiveness, for instance, that an 808 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,680 Speaker 1: NFL alignment has to exercise, and they can do that 809 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:38,680 Speaker 1: to a certain level. But if they were to take 810 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,680 Speaker 1: their helmet off and hit someone with it, that goes 811 00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,680 Speaker 1: beyond the level of aggression that is habituated to the realm. 812 00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,080 Speaker 1: And so that's what I mean by saying that there 813 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,880 Speaker 1: are these levels to what we see, and there's a 814 00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,879 Speaker 1: structure within which we exercise these. To me, that's where 815 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:55,920 Speaker 1: we're habituated to. 816 00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:58,560 Speaker 2: And to think. 817 00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:04,280 Speaker 1: That that habituation will ultimately lead to something like acceptance 818 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:09,239 Speaker 1: of Christ isn't impossible, but it's certainly not something that 819 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:15,360 Speaker 1: I would argue in defense of a Christian culture. I 820 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:19,160 Speaker 1: think that's a leap for me. So really interested here 821 00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,360 Speaker 1: in your comments on any and all that, But I 822 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,080 Speaker 1: know the virtue side of things, I'd really be interested 823 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:25,160 Speaker 1: in hear your comments on that. 824 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, So what is drawing upon Jennifer Hurt with his 825 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:34,160 Speaker 3: claims theological ethicist at Yale and particularly her book Putting 826 00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:39,440 Speaker 3: on Virtue, where basically her argument really truncated. So not 827 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:41,680 Speaker 3: that Jennifer's listening to this, but in the case she is, 828 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:47,319 Speaker 3: I understand that I'm truncating, Please forgive me. Basically, her 829 00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,680 Speaker 3: argument is that there's a continuity and that same sort 830 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,480 Speaker 3: of habitist Bordeo kind of way that you're talking about, 831 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:58,799 Speaker 3: there's a continuity that leads us from what historically one 832 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,600 Speaker 3: might call not that she's using precisely these distinctions, but 833 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,880 Speaker 3: the cardinal virtues, which are natural virtues, the formation of 834 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:12,080 Speaker 3: the habits onto proper motives and character into theological virtues, 835 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,160 Speaker 3: which traditionally are often seen as the work specifically of 836 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:19,360 Speaker 3: the Spirit through by work, through the Church and administering 837 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:23,040 Speaker 3: the Word and body of Christ and blood of Christ. Right, 838 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,040 Speaker 3: and that one then leads into the others. So why 839 00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:30,960 Speaker 3: do we have traditions and cultural ways of doing things, 840 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,680 Speaker 3: for instance, for children in the church. We do them 841 00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:40,480 Speaker 3: because we trust that polay acting of sorts gets us 842 00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,239 Speaker 3: somewhere into beginning to habituate the right ways of being 843 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,920 Speaker 3: in the world that hopefully but doesn't necessarily lead to 844 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,359 Speaker 3: actually virtue for virtue sake, doing good for the sake 845 00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:57,479 Speaker 3: of good. Right. I think that there's some basic things 846 00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,640 Speaker 3: about what she's saying that are helpful in a right right. 847 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,080 Speaker 3: They speak to the ways in which we think about 848 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,120 Speaker 3: raising children that we can't guarantee certain results. They think 849 00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,400 Speaker 3: about ways in which we'd like to see cultural values 850 00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:14,359 Speaker 3: at play, right, even as there's something not automatic about them, 851 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:16,520 Speaker 3: and I don't think she sees them as automatic either. 852 00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,040 Speaker 3: I do think there are levels of discontinuity also at 853 00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,880 Speaker 3: play that she doesn't spend enough time affirming. If I'm 854 00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,400 Speaker 3: reading her correctly, I think some of the discontinuities that 855 00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,720 Speaker 3: the work of the Spirit does bring about an element 856 00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:33,120 Speaker 3: of grace that can't be reduced to the formation of 857 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:38,600 Speaker 3: habitasts culturally, personally, socially, familiarly, or anything like that. But 858 00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:40,880 Speaker 3: what he does is what does is he takes what 859 00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,160 Speaker 3: she's doing and he wants to import that into rationale 860 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:49,719 Speaker 3: for creating a certain politically governed cultural Christian set of ideals. 861 00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:55,480 Speaker 3: And I'm not sure that that move is one that 862 00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,200 Speaker 3: Jennifer Hurt would be comfortable with. It's at the very 863 00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,880 Speaker 3: least something I'm not comfortable with, and not least because 864 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,759 Speaker 3: of so sociologists who I believe is still at the 865 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:10,120 Speaker 3: University of Virginia. James Davison Hunter, for instance, wrote a 866 00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,719 Speaker 3: book called To Change the World, and in that book 867 00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:17,640 Speaker 3: he argues that one of the things that Christians actually 868 00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:21,120 Speaker 3: in this country, especially those in the more evangelical vein, 869 00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:23,719 Speaker 3: have tried to do, is to take upon themselves the 870 00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:28,399 Speaker 3: notion if we change people's ideals, if we set up 871 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,799 Speaker 3: their right way of thinking ethically and doctrinally, we will 872 00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:34,719 Speaker 3: begin to change who they are. The thinking there is 873 00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:39,680 Speaker 3: very much what is arguing the habit forming reality of it. 874 00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:41,520 Speaker 3: And his point that he tries to make, and he 875 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,840 Speaker 3: shows it with quite detail, is it's not clear that 876 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:50,480 Speaker 3: we can ever really point to whole scale to this happening, Right, 877 00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:52,759 Speaker 3: So what has a couple of anecdotes, but they're just 878 00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:58,239 Speaker 3: that they're anecdotes. Whole scale, it just doesn't work that way. 879 00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:01,759 Speaker 3: Quite to the contrary, actually, right, think about the decades 880 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:06,400 Speaker 3: within which evangelicals, the conservative Christian movement, including Catholics, have 881 00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:10,760 Speaker 3: worked to overturn Roe v. Wade, and when that finally happened, 882 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:14,839 Speaker 3: far from people saying, you know what, you were right 883 00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:16,759 Speaker 3: after all, the policy is now what it is, and 884 00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,919 Speaker 3: you were right and let's work with them. No, right, 885 00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:24,279 Speaker 3: If anything, other movements were actually that were far less 886 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,120 Speaker 3: politically motivated, were far more successful. So, for instance, for 887 00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:29,200 Speaker 3: all of the touting of Trump as the guy who 888 00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:35,120 Speaker 3: was protecting the social ideas of Christianity, his first term 889 00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 3: as president saw more abortions per year than the Obama 890 00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,520 Speaker 3: presidency does as the one who was a pro choice president, 891 00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:47,840 Speaker 3: which is frankly begged to differ on the question of 892 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,840 Speaker 3: whether dictating policy was the way to begin to form 893 00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:53,720 Speaker 3: habits within particular people. 894 00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:56,520 Speaker 2: Right, right now, what was it. 895 00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,000 Speaker 3: That caused fewer abortions in the Obama administration. I'm not 896 00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:00,920 Speaker 3: sure about that, but I just know that the numbers 897 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:05,640 Speaker 3: say that apparently policy is not the actual way into it. 898 00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:09,879 Speaker 3: So I think the Hunter idea is that policy has 899 00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,720 Speaker 3: never been the way to change people's minds or hearts. 900 00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:16,839 Speaker 3: If anything, it sets up reaction, right, It sets up 901 00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:21,800 Speaker 3: election cycles, sets up political maneuvering, It sets up different 902 00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:26,960 Speaker 3: ways of strategizing how to flip the script. So I'm 903 00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,080 Speaker 3: not even sure, just on the practical level, that the 904 00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:31,480 Speaker 3: sort of thing that Davison or sorry that Wood is 905 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:37,680 Speaker 3: arguing here is in fact correct. And I think that's 906 00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:39,600 Speaker 3: for good reason. And I think that part of that 907 00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:43,320 Speaker 3: good reason is that the sort of thing he's advocating 908 00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:45,799 Speaker 3: as a cultural Christianity, I would actually argue is not 909 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,440 Speaker 3: very Christian if what we mean by that is the 910 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:53,160 Speaker 3: life and way of thinking of Christ. But in addition 911 00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:57,319 Speaker 3: to that, I don't think the ways of Christianity and 912 00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:02,160 Speaker 3: the ways that Jennifer heard is arguing can be grafted 913 00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:06,920 Speaker 3: on to a social discourse, not least because and the 914 00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:08,640 Speaker 3: words of Augustine, the loves are different. 915 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:09,520 Speaker 1: Right. 916 00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,560 Speaker 3: The early Church recognizes us very quickly that the love 917 00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:17,879 Speaker 3: of those who came to Christ was a love dictated 918 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:21,360 Speaker 3: by a person in a way of being, namely Jesus 919 00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:23,680 Speaker 3: in his way of being in a kingdom that was 920 00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:28,800 Speaker 3: so radically unlike the political motivations of empire building. 921 00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:30,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 922 00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:33,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, that you had to recognize that being in that 923 00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:39,240 Speaker 3: society meant living in some sense in distinction from its goals. 924 00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:40,839 Speaker 2: Yeah. 925 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,960 Speaker 1: And I think Veronica Ogol actually captures us pretty well. 926 00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,000 Speaker 1: In her book on Augustine, City of God. She talks 927 00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:52,080 Speaker 1: about Augustine's conception as being there are political orders that 928 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:57,759 Speaker 1: can make a society sicker or healthier. Now I would 929 00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,200 Speaker 1: amend that, I think that's the word she used, but 930 00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:03,400 Speaker 1: I would amend that in just say, there are political 931 00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:07,239 Speaker 1: orders that make society sick in certain ways that others don't, 932 00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:11,400 Speaker 1: and healthy in ways that certain others don't. I tend 933 00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:16,600 Speaker 1: to shy away from the healthier, sicker, better, worse kind 934 00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:17,800 Speaker 1: of categories because I. 935 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:19,200 Speaker 2: Think they assume a little too much. 936 00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:22,680 Speaker 1: But I think your point is still the same, and 937 00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:28,000 Speaker 1: it's this idea that because the orders are different, And 938 00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,520 Speaker 1: this is to me the crux of the problem with 939 00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,680 Speaker 1: Wood's defense of Christian culture or even cultural Christians. Here, 940 00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:39,760 Speaker 1: there is no such thing as a Christian that is 941 00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,400 Speaker 1: not at the very least seeking to live under the 942 00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,280 Speaker 1: full authority of Jesus Christ, under the full authority of 943 00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:47,040 Speaker 1: the trying God. 944 00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:49,160 Speaker 2: This is the shamah. 945 00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,560 Speaker 1: This is you know, the greatest and the greatest commandment 946 00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,120 Speaker 1: in the second which is like it. This is a 947 00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:01,640 Speaker 1: a willingness to devote oneself fully without reserve to God. 948 00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:05,800 Speaker 2: Now are there? I always like to bring this up. 949 00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,480 Speaker 1: It's like old Testament guy, Right, You've got the law 950 00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:11,560 Speaker 1: and it's like, Okay, you're supposed to obey the law perfectly. 951 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:15,920 Speaker 1: This is what it means to, you know, be fully 952 00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:19,360 Speaker 1: devoted to God. And I would say, well, yes and no, right, 953 00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,920 Speaker 1: like the Jews are not trying to obey the law perfectly. 954 00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:28,120 Speaker 1: If that were the case, right, if you had to 955 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,200 Speaker 1: obey the law perfectly in order to be in covenant 956 00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:33,320 Speaker 1: with God. This sacrificial system, now all of a sudden 957 00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:38,320 Speaker 1: becomes unintelligible. Embedded within the laws the mechanism to fix 958 00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,440 Speaker 1: the problems and mistakes that humans make over and over 959 00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:44,960 Speaker 1: and over again. And this is why the human high 960 00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,200 Speaker 1: priest must make This is Hebrews. This is why he 961 00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,320 Speaker 1: must make restitution for his own sins, a toment for 962 00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,040 Speaker 1: his own sins along with those of the people, and 963 00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,360 Speaker 1: so what we see in this and I think this 964 00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,720 Speaker 1: is more the framework that I wish would head you. 965 00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:04,520 Speaker 1: What we do see in Hebrews is I think an 966 00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:09,800 Speaker 1: interesting conception of something good gesturing towards something better. 967 00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:12,640 Speaker 2: To use the Hebrews language. 968 00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:16,919 Speaker 1: Right, But that goodness is not something that we sit 969 00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:19,200 Speaker 1: back and say, Oh, I'm so grateful that we have 970 00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:22,360 Speaker 1: a high priest who has to also offer sacrifices for 971 00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:25,320 Speaker 1: his own sins, and I'm so happy that I get 972 00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:26,640 Speaker 1: to be in the outer Court, not in. 973 00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:27,480 Speaker 2: The Holy of Holies. 974 00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,880 Speaker 1: No, these things were intended to push us beyond where 975 00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:36,280 Speaker 1: we were. They were symbols given shadows and copies given 976 00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,320 Speaker 1: to help us understand that there's a better reality that 977 00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:41,880 Speaker 1: we're pushing for, and that this trajectory that we're on 978 00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:45,760 Speaker 1: is leading us to something greater and better, more transcendent. However, 979 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:50,919 Speaker 1: we want to say that woods argument doesn't quite get 980 00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:55,240 Speaker 1: there for me, in part because he collapses the distinction 981 00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:58,160 Speaker 1: between Christian and non Christian and in so many ways 982 00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:01,479 Speaker 1: throughout the throughout the piece. And so do I think 983 01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:05,600 Speaker 1: that there is a sense in which any culture can 984 01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:13,520 Speaker 1: exhibit or allow the good to come forth in ways 985 01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:18,720 Speaker 1: that it would eventually lead people to Christ. Sure, I 986 01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:23,040 Speaker 1: don't think that's unique to a Christian culture. I think 987 01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:26,479 Speaker 1: that is embedded in every culture. That you can see goodness, truth, 988 01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:31,160 Speaker 1: and beauty in every culture. And so I don't see 989 01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:36,320 Speaker 1: that the idea of defending a Christian culture is necessarily 990 01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:41,120 Speaker 1: different than defending the idea of any other culture. And 991 01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:43,200 Speaker 1: that's why I want to try to get down to 992 01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:46,240 Speaker 1: this other basis that I think would is really sort 993 01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:48,520 Speaker 1: of trying to get to but doesn't quite make it 994 01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:53,280 Speaker 1: in this article, which is that any time Christians can 995 01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:56,480 Speaker 1: recognize the good, the true, and the beautiful within the world, 996 01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:02,760 Speaker 1: that's a right and salutary thing to do, right, because 997 01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:08,280 Speaker 1: we are supposed to recognize reality God's the self disclosure 998 01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:11,120 Speaker 1: gives us a different perspective on what reality actually is. 999 01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:16,200 Speaker 1: It does not mean that we are satisfied with that reality. 1000 01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,120 Speaker 1: It often means that as we recognize that good, true, 1001 01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:22,440 Speaker 1: and beautiful, we're supposed to point beyond that to its source, 1002 01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:25,120 Speaker 1: which is the Triyan God. And so I think we 1003 01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:28,440 Speaker 1: can't get caught up in these cultural patterns. I usually 1004 01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:30,400 Speaker 1: liken it not she used to. If you've ever played 1005 01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:32,400 Speaker 1: with a light right, you use the beetles, I'll use 1006 01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:36,120 Speaker 1: the light right, light right, Okay. Light Bright was the 1007 01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:40,120 Speaker 1: children's toy. It had a light box. You'd put a 1008 01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:44,600 Speaker 1: like a cloth sheet over it that would block the light, 1009 01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:47,600 Speaker 1: and then you'd have this peg board that you'd poke 1010 01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:51,000 Speaker 1: these colored pegs into and you could create different patterns 1011 01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:52,600 Speaker 1: and so like on the commercials when I was a kid, 1012 01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:54,680 Speaker 1: I remember, you know, they made these like cool dragons 1013 01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:58,200 Speaker 1: or a puppy or whatever, and wherever the wherever the 1014 01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:02,960 Speaker 1: colored pegs went in, the would shine through those pigs. Well, 1015 01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:05,960 Speaker 1: the pegs aren't the source of the light. They're just 1016 01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:10,680 Speaker 1: creating the patterns through which that light behind it is shining. 1017 01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:14,520 Speaker 1: And so I think of culture in the way that 1018 01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:19,000 Speaker 1: I think of a light bright. God is the source 1019 01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:21,280 Speaker 1: of the goodness, truth and beauty. That's the light shining 1020 01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:26,800 Speaker 1: through the back. Culture is creating the patterns through which 1021 01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:30,480 Speaker 1: aspects of that light come through. And so you can 1022 01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:32,080 Speaker 1: have all these different patterns. 1023 01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:32,280 Speaker 2: That you can make. 1024 01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:33,920 Speaker 1: You can make a rooster, you can make a windmill, 1025 01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:35,560 Speaker 1: you can make a dragon, you could pick a dog, 1026 01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:37,600 Speaker 1: you make whatever pattern you wanted to make, just a 1027 01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:42,080 Speaker 1: zig zig zag kind of thing. Once you start making 1028 01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:45,440 Speaker 1: that pattern. Some of God's goodness, truth and beauty is 1029 01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:49,080 Speaker 1: going to shine through, and it's going to be different 1030 01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:53,720 Speaker 1: than other cultural patterns. But the culture is not the 1031 01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:58,080 Speaker 1: source of those things. The culture is just opening up 1032 01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:01,240 Speaker 1: spaces for that to shine through. What we need to 1033 01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:03,880 Speaker 1: do as Christians is recognize, hey, this is a portion 1034 01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:05,640 Speaker 1: where God's truth is shining through. 1035 01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:07,440 Speaker 2: We need to now amplify that. 1036 01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,480 Speaker 1: Point people behind the colored peg to the light box 1037 01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:14,080 Speaker 1: that's actually making that light. Hopefully that makes sense to 1038 01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,000 Speaker 1: people if they've ever seen a light bright before, but 1039 01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:18,520 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to describe a light bight. 1040 01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:21,640 Speaker 2: On a podcast. That's what I'm realizing. 1041 01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:24,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll have to look that up see if I 1042 01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:25,680 Speaker 3: have an image now of it in my mind. But 1043 01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:28,760 Speaker 3: I think what I'm understanding, it's fitting to me that 1044 01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:33,920 Speaker 3: this as its basic operating mechanism light. Yeah, because I 1045 01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:37,680 Speaker 3: think the sort of reality you're describing is about the 1046 01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:38,960 Speaker 3: transfiguring reality. 1047 01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:39,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 1048 01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:42,720 Speaker 3: Right, when we think about the transfiguration of Christ, we 1049 01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,440 Speaker 3: can't lose the particularity of Christ that Jesus was the Messiah, 1050 01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:50,200 Speaker 3: meaning he was a Jewish man who walked on Jewish soil, 1051 01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:53,800 Speaker 3: eating the food that belonged to that area, inhabiting the 1052 01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:56,360 Speaker 3: customs and the ways of being of that area. It's 1053 01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,800 Speaker 3: non negotiable and irreducible to see Jesus in any other ways, 1054 01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:02,840 Speaker 3: and as the Jewish Man who was the Messiah who 1055 01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:08,240 Speaker 3: opens up his very flesh to the nations. But the 1056 01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:13,320 Speaker 3: process of opening himself up was itself a transfiguring of Jewishness. 1057 01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:18,240 Speaker 3: Yeah right, So it wasn't just simply I received Jewishness. 1058 01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:21,160 Speaker 3: I accept that Jewishness, and I now affirm it for 1059 01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:25,120 Speaker 3: everyone in the world. It's a transfiguring it to raise 1060 01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:28,720 Speaker 3: it above itself and to create the possibility of every 1061 01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,760 Speaker 3: place being able to be transfigured in light of the 1062 01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:34,320 Speaker 3: light that is Christ. In light of course, it is 1063 01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:37,080 Speaker 3: a prominent metaphor then, not just in that event, but 1064 01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:39,240 Speaker 3: in for instance, the way the Gospel of John talks 1065 01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:40,000 Speaker 3: about Jesus. 1066 01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:45,360 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, well, this is good stuff. 1067 01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:48,400 Speaker 1: Where We've gone a long time on this and I 1068 01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,040 Speaker 1: feel like we've beaten James Wood up sufficiently. 1069 01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:53,280 Speaker 2: I will just say this. 1070 01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:56,520 Speaker 1: I came across this article and was excited to read 1071 01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,200 Speaker 1: it because I listened to the Civatas podcast and I 1072 01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:01,520 Speaker 1: think they do really great work on there. I've heard 1073 01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:04,280 Speaker 1: James would talk a good bit and I would say 1074 01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:05,080 Speaker 1: this article. 1075 01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:07,840 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have pinned this as his work. 1076 01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:10,320 Speaker 1: It doesn't seem reflective of a lot of what he 1077 01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:13,280 Speaker 1: talks about on the podcast, and so i'd encourage people 1078 01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:18,000 Speaker 1: This is not hey never read James wood stuff or 1079 01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:20,600 Speaker 1: anything like that. This is just one of those moments 1080 01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:23,880 Speaker 1: where we both really happen to disagree with him and 1081 01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:27,400 Speaker 1: feel like he needed to build more nuance and put 1082 01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:31,480 Speaker 1: more thought into certain areas, and so we're offering critique. 1083 01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:33,400 Speaker 1: But I really do appreciate a lot of what he 1084 01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:35,400 Speaker 1: does on the podcast, and I would encourage people to 1085 01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:38,760 Speaker 1: check out the Sypathos podcasts. They're interested in things like, 1086 01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:41,760 Speaker 1: you know, post liberalism in the role of the church, 1087 01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:43,680 Speaker 1: which I'm sure so many of you are. 1088 01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:45,560 Speaker 2: Right. 1089 01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:48,960 Speaker 1: Again, I'm showing that sort of level of geekness that 1090 01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:51,800 Speaker 1: only seems to come out on the podcast. But I 1091 01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:54,680 Speaker 1: do want to say that because I think that oftentimes, 1092 01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:57,880 Speaker 1: whenever we're critiquing the content, it can feel like we're 1093 01:05:57,920 --> 01:05:59,880 Speaker 1: critiquing the person and we're really not doing that. 1094 01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:02,480 Speaker 2: We're just interacting with. 1095 01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:07,760 Speaker 1: The ideas and hopefully being as collegial as possible. So 1096 01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:09,600 Speaker 1: that if James would wherever to listen to this, he 1097 01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:12,200 Speaker 1: could sit back and say I understand their arguments and 1098 01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:15,040 Speaker 1: could see how I can improve my thinking on these matters. 1099 01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:20,240 Speaker 1: So we'll leave it there, but encourage you to check 1100 01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:23,800 Speaker 1: out first things, I encourage you to check out the 1101 01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:24,880 Speaker 1: Civitas podcast. 1102 01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:27,800 Speaker 2: Obviously subscribe to Thinking Christians. 1103 01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,640 Speaker 1: Why will be having more of these conversations coming up, 1104 01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:34,520 Speaker 1: But ultimately this has been I think, a good conversation 1105 01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:37,240 Speaker 1: and an encouragement and so thanks Ashiesh for that, and 1106 01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:39,520 Speaker 1: thanks everybody for listening. We'll catch you on the next 1107 01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:42,280 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I just want to take a 1108 01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:44,440 Speaker 1: second to thank the team at Life Audio for their 1109 01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:47,640 Speaker 1: partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you 1110 01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:50,040 Speaker 1: go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other 1111 01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:53,560 Speaker 1: faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, 1112 01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:55,680 Speaker 1: Bible study, parenting, and more.