1 00:00:01,820 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,020 --> 00:00:11,350 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,490 --> 00:00:15,590 Speaker 1: I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking 5 00:00:15,630 --> 00:00:17,930 Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world 6 00:00:18,450 --> 00:00:22,430 Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that 7 00:00:22,470 --> 00:00:25,810 Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, on to 8 00:00:25,829 --> 00:00:29,570 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everybody, welcome to this 9 00:00:29,650 --> 00:00:32,460 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. Today, Nate and I are gonna 10 00:00:32,500 --> 00:00:36,060 Speaker 1: be discussing a Gallup poll that came out recently. It 11 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: actually shows, it's on perceptions of capitalism and how many 12 00:00:40,900 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: Americans actually view capitalism as favorable. And essentially what the 13 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: study showed is that the needle moved from 60% of 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: people who view capitalism as favorable in 2021 to 54%. 15 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,900 Speaker 1: viewing it as favorable in 2025. So it's still a majority. 16 00:01:00,620 --> 00:01:03,460 Speaker 1: But within that data, there's a lot of interesting sort 17 00:01:03,540 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: of differences between various groups. And there's a range of 18 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: differences between things like race and gender and age, political stance, 19 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: all of those normal factors that a survey like this 20 00:01:17,540 --> 00:01:22,069 Speaker 1: would look at. And It's just an interesting study. And 21 00:01:22,130 --> 00:01:24,670 Speaker 1: so I thought we might talk about it today and 22 00:01:24,970 --> 00:01:29,190 Speaker 1: not to defend capitalism, not to advance socialism, which was 23 00:01:29,230 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: the other ism that they sort of address in the study. 24 00:01:33,420 --> 00:01:36,300 Speaker 1: But just to talk a little bit about where are 25 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,250 Speaker 1: we placing our hope? And I think that what we 26 00:01:40,300 --> 00:01:42,340 Speaker 1: want to try to do is, since the podcast is 27 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: called Thinking Christian, we should probably try to think Christian 28 00:01:44,740 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: about this. So that's what we're going to be talking 29 00:01:47,140 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: about today. Nate, thanks for joining the show again, and 30 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: glad we can have this conversation. Yeah, absolutely. 31 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 2: I'm excited to learn and to dive into it with 32 00:01:56,220 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 2: you and kind of just think about that, because I 33 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: feel like growing up, even just 10, 15 years ago, 34 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,810 Speaker 2: all these isms that you're talking about weren't as dominantly 35 00:02:05,850 --> 00:02:09,690 Speaker 2: in our conversation. But it's, it's like all around now. 36 00:02:10,010 --> 00:02:12,609 Speaker 1: So. Well, and it's really interesting because, you know, you 37 00:02:12,650 --> 00:02:14,870 Speaker 1: say that like we would have grown up in the, 38 00:02:15,330 --> 00:02:17,190 Speaker 1: like I would have grown up in the eighties and nineties, 39 00:02:17,230 --> 00:02:20,110 Speaker 1: you would have too. And if you look at the 40 00:02:20,190 --> 00:02:23,930 Speaker 1: data in the, in the study, like 62% of people 41 00:02:24,270 --> 00:02:29,230 Speaker 1: above 55 and over, right. So getting to be my age, 42 00:02:29,310 --> 00:02:32,170 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm going to turn 48 pretty soon, but 43 00:02:32,210 --> 00:02:35,870 Speaker 1: definitely my parents' age, the 62% of them have a 44 00:02:35,950 --> 00:02:40,660 Speaker 1: favorable view. capitalism. And so it seems like maybe what's 45 00:02:40,700 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: happening is that as we're growing up, this isn't an 46 00:02:43,500 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: issue because there's a broad consensus among this age group. Now, 47 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,630 Speaker 1: I think the statistics remain pretty clear. I did look 48 00:02:52,669 --> 00:02:54,790 Speaker 1: back at some of the previous studies Gallup had done 49 00:02:54,850 --> 00:02:59,049 Speaker 1: on this. And so you do see a fairly even 50 00:02:59,190 --> 00:03:03,010 Speaker 1: shift kind of coming across with capitalism. But if you 51 00:03:03,030 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: compare that to 18 to 34 year olds, You know, 62% 52 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: of 55 and over, only 43% of those between the 53 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,299 Speaker 1: ages of 18 and 34 have a favorable view of capitalism. 54 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,540 Speaker 1: And so the age group right in between us, right, 55 00:03:19,820 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: our age group didn't fare quite as well. I don't 56 00:03:21,620 --> 00:03:23,810 Speaker 1: have that statistic right in front of me. But the 57 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,390 Speaker 1: disparity between the 55-year-olds and the 18 to 34-year-olds was 58 00:03:27,490 --> 00:03:33,020 Speaker 1: actually pretty drastic on capitalism. Wow. Yeah, it's really interesting, though, 59 00:03:33,060 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: when you look at the numbers. So you had two categories, 60 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,150 Speaker 1: free enterprise, which I honestly, I had to kind of 61 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,670 Speaker 1: look up, right? What's the difference between capitalism and free enterprise? 62 00:03:44,190 --> 00:03:45,830 Speaker 1: And it turns out free enterprise is sort of a 63 00:03:45,850 --> 00:03:50,310 Speaker 1: component of capitalism is usually contained within it. Free enterprise 64 00:03:50,330 --> 00:03:53,030 Speaker 1: scored really well with almost everybody. It's a 92% favorability. 65 00:03:55,450 --> 00:03:59,670 Speaker 1: And even the variations within the data, like, you know, between, 66 00:03:59,710 --> 00:04:04,810 Speaker 1: let's say, whites versus non-whites, whites saw it as 84% favorable, 67 00:04:05,150 --> 00:04:08,900 Speaker 1: non-whites saw it as 76% favorable. And so while that's 68 00:04:08,910 --> 00:04:13,980 Speaker 1: a pretty significant difference percentage-wise, it's still a vast majority. 69 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you're talking a little bit more than three 70 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: quarters of non-whites viewing free enterprise as favorable. And then 71 00:04:20,460 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: small business was even better. I mean, it was 92% favorable. Yeah. 72 00:04:25,310 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: So you see these different components, right, within that are 73 00:04:29,779 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: sort of associated with or adjacent to capitalism that people 74 00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:41,270 Speaker 1: still view as very favorable. And you don't see increases 75 00:04:42,050 --> 00:04:46,310 Speaker 1: in favorability for something like socialism, which is usually sort 76 00:04:46,330 --> 00:04:51,260 Speaker 1: of pitted right against capitalism, right? So aside from the 77 00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: Democratic folks who go up one percentage point from 65 78 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:00,690 Speaker 1: to 66 percent. Everybody else was I mean, Republicans were 79 00:05:00,690 --> 00:05:03,770 Speaker 1: 14 percent, I think, and independents were somewhere in the 80 00:05:03,790 --> 00:05:10,690 Speaker 1: 40s for favorability. And so you just like you're not 81 00:05:10,750 --> 00:05:14,940 Speaker 1: seeing a clear picture. Yes, there's an erosion of favorability. 82 00:05:16,420 --> 00:05:19,620 Speaker 1: You know, maybe the shine is off the off the pot. 83 00:05:19,710 --> 00:05:19,969 Speaker 2: Right. 84 00:05:20,190 --> 00:05:23,490 Speaker 1: Like capitalism isn't quite the shiny new toy that we 85 00:05:23,570 --> 00:05:27,370 Speaker 1: used to think it was. But we're also not drifting 86 00:05:28,070 --> 00:05:33,980 Speaker 1: necessarily straight toward a different sort of ism. There's this 87 00:05:34,100 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 1: weird variability within it where it seems to me after 88 00:05:37,779 --> 00:05:40,180 Speaker 1: reading the study and looking at all the data, what 89 00:05:40,220 --> 00:05:42,940 Speaker 1: people are really searching for is we need to we 90 00:05:42,980 --> 00:05:46,310 Speaker 1: need to reform, not necessarily replacement. 91 00:05:49,779 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 2: I'm wondering about those people that were just don't really, 92 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 2: you said there was a percentage of people there that 93 00:05:55,700 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 2: just don't know. Do you think people are less likely 94 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: to be informed themselves into research or do you think 95 00:06:02,540 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 2: they kind of just fall into peer pressure for the 96 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: people around their communities, their family, people they work with, 97 00:06:07,990 --> 00:06:11,330 Speaker 2: or maybe just what they constantly get seen, get fed 98 00:06:11,350 --> 00:06:13,470 Speaker 2: to them from the media? Do you think that that's 99 00:06:13,790 --> 00:06:14,190 Speaker 2: a factor? 100 00:06:14,710 --> 00:06:15,990 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think this is one of the 101 00:06:16,070 --> 00:06:19,660 Speaker 1: real interesting parts of what I'm seeing in the data. 102 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: And obviously, when Gallup does this, they talk about the 103 00:06:23,370 --> 00:06:27,410 Speaker 1: question is something like, just give your first impression of, 104 00:06:28,589 --> 00:06:32,830 Speaker 1: you know, capitalism, socialism, free enterprise, small business, big business, 105 00:06:32,850 --> 00:06:35,290 Speaker 1: and they have those categories sort of laid out, but it's, 106 00:06:35,589 --> 00:06:36,860 Speaker 1: it's meant to be first impression. 107 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:38,020 Speaker 2: Right. 108 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: And so it's almost like a word association game. You're 109 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,620 Speaker 1: not necessarily asking people if they fully grasp what they're 110 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: talking about, when you say capitalism, right? And I think 111 00:06:50,980 --> 00:06:53,140 Speaker 1: that's why you see the differences in, you know, with 112 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: free enterprise and small business, right? And so what we 113 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: tended to see was that capitalism was viewed a little 114 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,870 Speaker 1: less favorably. Big business has never been viewed favorably, oddly. 115 00:07:05,890 --> 00:07:09,370 Speaker 1: And what I found fascinating was big business wasn't even 116 00:07:09,390 --> 00:07:12,830 Speaker 1: viewed favorably by people who made $ 100, 000 a year or 117 00:07:12,890 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: more household income. Really? It's just never really been a 118 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,590 Speaker 1: favorable thing, which I found fascinating. 119 00:07:20,550 --> 00:07:21,590 Speaker 2: Right. 120 00:07:21,670 --> 00:07:25,390 Speaker 1: And so, but it is part of capitalism, at least 121 00:07:25,430 --> 00:07:28,650 Speaker 1: the way we've construed capitalism in the United States. And 122 00:07:28,690 --> 00:07:30,610 Speaker 1: that's what sort of leads me to believe that we're 123 00:07:30,630 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: not seeing a move toward socialism necessarily, right? The data 124 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,340 Speaker 1: in this particular study wouldn't bear that out, but we 125 00:07:38,420 --> 00:07:41,140 Speaker 1: are seeing a movement to say, look, we want free enterprise. 126 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,850 Speaker 1: We want more small business. We want big business and, 127 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,500 Speaker 1: Big business is far less favorable to us. Maybe we 128 00:07:47,540 --> 00:07:50,540 Speaker 1: want to tolerate that, but we see it as, at best, 129 00:07:50,580 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: maybe a necessary evil, something around that. I'm trying to 130 00:07:53,420 --> 00:07:56,660 Speaker 1: put a narrative to the data that I'm seeing, which 131 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: is always a little dangerous. But I would just say 132 00:08:00,660 --> 00:08:05,470 Speaker 1: it is really a reform movement, is what it seems 133 00:08:05,530 --> 00:08:10,940 Speaker 1: like is needed. The differences in gender were fascinating. You know, 134 00:08:11,370 --> 00:08:14,710 Speaker 1: women tended to be less favorable of capitalism than males. 135 00:08:15,170 --> 00:08:20,490 Speaker 1: You're talking 45 percent versus 63 percent. Wow. Yeah. So big, 136 00:08:20,890 --> 00:08:23,950 Speaker 1: big differences and big disparities. And when you just look 137 00:08:23,970 --> 00:08:27,770 Speaker 1: at those stats, you're kind of sitting there going. Yeah, 138 00:08:28,370 --> 00:08:30,750 Speaker 1: no matter what you what the causes are, whether it's 139 00:08:30,890 --> 00:08:35,470 Speaker 1: media bias or whether it's just, you know, people's lived experience, 140 00:08:35,570 --> 00:08:38,210 Speaker 1: I don't think we should discount that. Some people are 141 00:08:38,230 --> 00:08:41,870 Speaker 1: going to have a different relationship to the economic systems 142 00:08:41,910 --> 00:08:48,059 Speaker 1: that we exist in than others. And so while I 143 00:08:48,100 --> 00:08:50,780 Speaker 1: think it's absolutely right for us to sort of push 144 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 1: back on some of the more generalizations of that we 145 00:08:56,100 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: sometimes see on the news or what have you there, 146 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,810 Speaker 1: we probably shouldn't dismiss it altogether. I think people have 147 00:09:05,890 --> 00:09:10,689 Speaker 1: different experiences within our economy, and that's an important thing 148 00:09:10,730 --> 00:09:11,070 Speaker 1: to note. 149 00:09:12,429 --> 00:09:14,650 Speaker 2: And some people, I think, more and more, at least 150 00:09:14,809 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 2: what I'm seeing in my circles, are afraid to even 151 00:09:17,100 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 2: speak their mind on some of these topics because nobody 152 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:24,540 Speaker 2: wants to offend, nobody wants to be labeled or put 153 00:09:24,580 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: in a category. I feel that pressure, especially on social media. 154 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:30,610 Speaker 2: Like I've told you many times before, and I think 155 00:09:30,650 --> 00:09:34,229 Speaker 2: you're the same way, I will never engage in like, arguments, 156 00:09:34,370 --> 00:09:36,730 Speaker 2: even if it seems constructive, even if it seems like 157 00:09:37,270 --> 00:09:39,790 Speaker 2: it's going to be beneficial. It never has been for 158 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,020 Speaker 2: me and I've never really seen it be beneficial. So 159 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,500 Speaker 2: I just stay out of that. I still certainly read 160 00:09:44,540 --> 00:09:47,820 Speaker 2: it and check in and read comments sometimes, but I 161 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,059 Speaker 2: won't personally ever do that because I've never seen anyone 162 00:09:50,660 --> 00:09:53,660 Speaker 2: change somebody's mind over social media. But it astounds me 163 00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 2: every single day how many people think they can. 164 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,490 Speaker 1: I think part of the reason I don't do it is, 165 00:10:01,730 --> 00:10:04,100 Speaker 1: is the reason you're expressing. I do think it's going 166 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,460 Speaker 1: to have a limited effectiveness, but I also think, and 167 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,780 Speaker 1: I'm writing a piece up for christianity.com on this, but 168 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,780 Speaker 1: I'm increasingly thinking that we're just asking the wrong question. 169 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:22,890 Speaker 1: And so if the question is framed, um, is capitalism 170 00:10:22,950 --> 00:10:27,309 Speaker 1: a good system or, you know, should we be capitalist 171 00:10:27,370 --> 00:10:31,189 Speaker 1: or socialist or what, you know, whatever, which given the 172 00:10:32,550 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: differences between Republicans and Democrats on this issue, it seems 173 00:10:36,500 --> 00:10:40,420 Speaker 1: like that's a really high potential framing for this sort 174 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,860 Speaker 1: of question is capitalism or socialism better. You're talking about 175 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,940 Speaker 1: a pretty strong majority of Democrats seeing socialism favorably. And, 176 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,510 Speaker 1: This year was the first year that the that a 177 00:10:55,570 --> 00:10:58,670 Speaker 1: majority of Democrats or at least 50 percent of Democrats 178 00:10:58,850 --> 00:11:05,390 Speaker 1: didn't view capitalism favorably. It 42 percent only viewed capitalism favorably. 179 00:11:06,429 --> 00:11:08,449 Speaker 1: And so what you're seeing is probably what's going to 180 00:11:08,850 --> 00:11:11,470 Speaker 1: be what could play out on a on a Republican 181 00:11:11,530 --> 00:11:15,869 Speaker 1: Democrat sort of debate stage is Republicans being strongly in 182 00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:21,300 Speaker 1: favor of capitalism. Democrats being strongly in favor of socialism 183 00:11:21,780 --> 00:11:26,470 Speaker 1: and sort of everybody else who's not involved there, right? Uh, 184 00:11:26,570 --> 00:11:28,689 Speaker 1: all of us who have this sort of other opinion 185 00:11:28,770 --> 00:11:32,290 Speaker 1: on the matter getting kind of lost in the, in 186 00:11:32,309 --> 00:11:36,630 Speaker 1: the political polarization. And so when I sort of look 187 00:11:36,650 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: at this data and read this study, my thinking ultimately 188 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: goes to, we are just asking the wrong question. It 189 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: seems to me like the right questions maybe are, um, 190 00:11:50,540 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: if we were to switch or reform a system, could 191 00:11:53,220 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: we make our lives better? Yes, I think we could. 192 00:11:55,580 --> 00:11:59,930 Speaker 1: I think reform is probably the right conversation to be having, 193 00:12:00,850 --> 00:12:03,190 Speaker 1: but I would even say beyond that, I would just say, 194 00:12:03,630 --> 00:12:07,590 Speaker 1: where are we putting our hope? You know, if we 195 00:12:07,690 --> 00:12:14,859 Speaker 1: look at these systems, the systems themselves are probably, uh, philosophically, um, 196 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,540 Speaker 1: you know, abstracted from any sort of concrete reality is 197 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: what I mean when I say philosophically, they're probably okay. 198 00:12:25,660 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know that I hate the idea 199 00:12:28,980 --> 00:12:33,900 Speaker 1: of socialism, right? I think in its concrete instantiations, we've 200 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,900 Speaker 1: seen a lot of abuses and problems and issues that 201 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:39,820 Speaker 1: are all out there. And I think we could say 202 00:12:39,860 --> 00:12:44,130 Speaker 1: the same about capitalism, right? As a theory, I don't know, 203 00:12:44,210 --> 00:12:46,670 Speaker 1: maybe it makes a good bit of sense. But when 204 00:12:46,740 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: it's implemented in a concrete world, we now have to 205 00:12:51,179 --> 00:12:57,780 Speaker 1: deal with distortions and deviations from an ideal. And so 206 00:12:58,420 --> 00:13:01,860 Speaker 1: any structure, any system that we put in place, in 207 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:06,110 Speaker 1: my estimation, we shouldn't be looking for utopia. We should 208 00:13:06,150 --> 00:13:08,950 Speaker 1: be doing it because we want to improve one area 209 00:13:09,070 --> 00:13:11,110 Speaker 1: and are willing to improve that area. 210 00:13:12,910 --> 00:13:13,150 Speaker 2: Right. 211 00:13:13,690 --> 00:13:17,490 Speaker 1: While probably. causing other areas to decline. 212 00:13:19,090 --> 00:13:20,950 Speaker 2: There's always a health effect for sure. 213 00:13:21,530 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. It's almost like touching a baby's mobile, right? You 214 00:13:25,860 --> 00:13:28,579 Speaker 1: pull one side down, it's a guarantee the other sides move. 215 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: And sometimes in ways that you can't quite predict, right. But, 216 00:13:33,179 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: but you know, it's going to move. And I think 217 00:13:35,620 --> 00:13:38,820 Speaker 1: the same thing with these systems, if we're thinking that 218 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:43,390 Speaker 1: changing these systems will automatically, you know, make our lives better, 219 00:13:46,170 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's really the case. I think it 220 00:13:49,460 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: makes them differently good and differently bad. 221 00:13:53,260 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 2: I think about like a conveyor belt. If you focus 222 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,980 Speaker 2: on one because it needs attention, then the other areas 223 00:13:58,020 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 2: are going to start to be dropping plates. 224 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: I think that's fair. Yeah, that's a good analogy. It's 225 00:14:03,179 --> 00:14:05,660 Speaker 1: just that's what I think is going to end up happening. 226 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: And so to me, the compelling issue here is what 227 00:14:10,980 --> 00:14:13,620 Speaker 1: kind of questions should we be asking? And I would 228 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,110 Speaker 1: have really loved, and they don't show this in the data, 229 00:14:16,230 --> 00:14:18,209 Speaker 1: but I would have really loved to see some sort 230 00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:23,710 Speaker 1: of religious affiliation question in there. Like, so you can understand, 231 00:14:23,790 --> 00:14:27,910 Speaker 1: is there a generalized Christian view of these things? But 232 00:14:27,970 --> 00:14:32,070 Speaker 1: all I would say is, do I have a positive 233 00:14:32,110 --> 00:14:34,710 Speaker 1: view of capitalism? Do I have a positive view of socialism? 234 00:14:34,770 --> 00:14:38,310 Speaker 1: Not necessarily. Like I said, as abstract systems, I don't 235 00:14:38,350 --> 00:14:43,210 Speaker 1: really even know that I'm, Qualified to say yes on 236 00:14:43,250 --> 00:14:46,250 Speaker 1: this one and no to this one. But what I 237 00:14:46,290 --> 00:14:49,770 Speaker 1: can say is that every time we implement any sort 238 00:14:49,790 --> 00:14:54,770 Speaker 1: of rigid system, we decide we're going to be this 239 00:14:54,830 --> 00:15:03,180 Speaker 1: sort of people. It tends to obscure, for Christians at least, 240 00:15:03,940 --> 00:15:07,300 Speaker 1: it has a tendency to obscure our identity in Christ. Mm-hmm. 241 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:13,420 Speaker 1: We tend to start molding in capitalism with Christianity, socialism 242 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,860 Speaker 1: with Christianity, or you name any other ism. And that's 243 00:15:17,220 --> 00:15:20,580 Speaker 1: where it tends. Republicanism, you know, being a Democrat, whatever 244 00:15:20,620 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: it is. Right. It tends to get molded into what 245 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: it means to be a Christian. And I think this 246 00:15:25,780 --> 00:15:27,620 Speaker 1: is where we see, you know, we've talked a lot 247 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,070 Speaker 1: about Christian nationalism on the show. I would say that 248 00:15:30,090 --> 00:15:34,210 Speaker 1: that's an instantiation of merging these questions too closely and 249 00:15:35,260 --> 00:15:37,619 Speaker 1: Same with evangelicals for Harris. It doesn't just happen on 250 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,380 Speaker 1: the conservative side, right? It also happens on the liberal side. 251 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,619 Speaker 1: And so I would just advocate as we're looking at 252 00:15:45,980 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: research like this that the questions we ought to be 253 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:55,500 Speaker 1: asking is maybe something like what really gives our lives meaning? Purpose. Yeah. 254 00:15:55,740 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: How do we think about how the world works with 255 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,170 Speaker 1: the understanding that God is active and present in it? 256 00:16:02,180 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. 257 00:16:03,870 --> 00:16:06,630 Speaker 1: And if God is active and present with us in it, 258 00:16:07,910 --> 00:16:14,250 Speaker 1: and we're sort of co-creating along with him what our 259 00:16:14,310 --> 00:16:19,370 Speaker 1: lives look like, trusting him, obeying him, recognizing that our 260 00:16:19,450 --> 00:16:21,910 Speaker 1: obedience is going to open up new ways of seeing 261 00:16:21,950 --> 00:16:25,010 Speaker 1: the world, open up new ways of understanding how God 262 00:16:25,210 --> 00:16:28,810 Speaker 1: acts in tandem with us and helps us, gives us 263 00:16:28,930 --> 00:16:34,100 Speaker 1: true provision. I think that's what Christians need to be 264 00:16:34,180 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: focusing on. And as they focus on that, I think 265 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,290 Speaker 1: that we'll have better insights into how to reform some 266 00:16:42,350 --> 00:16:46,690 Speaker 1: of these systems. We're only going to gain wisdom if, 267 00:16:47,510 --> 00:16:49,010 Speaker 1: you know, the fear of the Lord is the beginning 268 00:16:49,030 --> 00:16:52,700 Speaker 1: of wisdom. It seems to me that we should be 269 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,340 Speaker 1: focusing on the fear of the Lord if we want 270 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: to wisely reform. you know, sort of structure a broken 271 00:17:01,420 --> 00:17:08,670 Speaker 1: world in a way that is quasi-just, right? You know, 272 00:17:10,090 --> 00:17:11,830 Speaker 1: in other words, what I mean by I say quasi, 273 00:17:11,970 --> 00:17:15,810 Speaker 1: it's gesturing toward the justice of God, but it's never 274 00:17:15,890 --> 00:17:21,070 Speaker 1: actually achieving it. And so, that's sort of my take 275 00:17:21,230 --> 00:17:24,139 Speaker 1: on all of this is that When we're framing the 276 00:17:24,180 --> 00:17:29,620 Speaker 1: question about which economic, which political, which whatever system we're 277 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:35,050 Speaker 1: going to ascribe to, we've missed a step probably. Right. 278 00:17:36,090 --> 00:17:39,750 Speaker 1: And we need to go back and realize that humanity 279 00:17:39,790 --> 00:17:44,190 Speaker 1: has fallen. These systems, structures, laws, all those kind of things, 280 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: to some degree, just restrain the evil that human beings 281 00:17:50,060 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: are going to do. It doesn't stop that. It doesn't 282 00:17:54,859 --> 00:17:59,980 Speaker 1: eliminate poverty or, or, you know, bad actors or whatever. 283 00:18:00,619 --> 00:18:03,620 Speaker 1: None of it does. Right. And so the only thing 284 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,060 Speaker 1: that's going to do that is regeneration through Jesus Christ, 285 00:18:07,940 --> 00:18:11,020 Speaker 1: preaching the gospel, building at the kingdom of God. And 286 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: so Christians just, it's not that we never address these issues. 287 00:18:14,859 --> 00:18:18,460 Speaker 1: It's that I think we have to address them as a, um, 288 00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:28,670 Speaker 1: downstream from discipleship, right? These are opinions, our thoughts, our, 289 00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:32,070 Speaker 1: our actions need to emerge from a life of discipleship 290 00:18:32,350 --> 00:18:36,750 Speaker 1: in these areas so that, you know, the church is 291 00:18:36,810 --> 00:18:42,170 Speaker 1: being built for the sake of the world. Right. Yeah. 292 00:18:42,290 --> 00:18:44,470 Speaker 2: And I think it's important to mention, man, like we've 293 00:18:44,510 --> 00:18:47,830 Speaker 2: talked a great deal about this, but like where you 294 00:18:47,869 --> 00:18:50,429 Speaker 2: said many times already today, where is your hope in? 295 00:18:50,550 --> 00:18:53,350 Speaker 2: Like what, We're asking the wrong questions. We're putting hope 296 00:18:53,410 --> 00:18:55,969 Speaker 2: and faith in the wrong thing. I know so many Christians, 297 00:18:56,050 --> 00:18:58,710 Speaker 2: as probably you do too, if Trump wouldn't have gotten 298 00:18:58,730 --> 00:19:01,510 Speaker 2: in this last election, they let that kind of be 299 00:19:01,530 --> 00:19:04,830 Speaker 2: the barometer of if they feel like God's in control 300 00:19:04,869 --> 00:19:07,139 Speaker 2: or not. Do you think God needs the left or 301 00:19:07,180 --> 00:19:10,340 Speaker 2: the right? He doesn't need one certain purpose. Our hope 302 00:19:10,380 --> 00:19:13,260 Speaker 2: and faith should be in Him, not if our guy's in, 303 00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 2: not if our party or our agendas or what we 304 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,970 Speaker 2: want is happening or taking place. I think our hope 305 00:19:20,010 --> 00:19:21,970 Speaker 2: and faith needs to be in Jesus. Otherwise, you're putting 306 00:19:22,010 --> 00:19:23,730 Speaker 2: him in a box and you're like, well, we didn't 307 00:19:23,750 --> 00:19:26,060 Speaker 2: get in this time. So we'll just wait and hopefully 308 00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 2: we'll do a better job in four years. 309 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:29,660 Speaker 1: Like, what does that say? 310 00:19:29,940 --> 00:19:33,139 Speaker 2: How much you put your hope and faith in God 311 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:34,340 Speaker 2: or if you put it in a system? 312 00:19:35,180 --> 00:19:37,530 Speaker 1: That's right. And I think when we look biblically, there's 313 00:19:37,570 --> 00:19:40,390 Speaker 1: only a few places that really address what I would 314 00:19:40,430 --> 00:19:44,890 Speaker 1: call structure. Right. And so when we look at something 315 00:19:44,910 --> 00:19:47,689 Speaker 1: with a liquid governing structure, as Israel is coming out 316 00:19:47,710 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: of the period of the judges, they're dealing with Samuel, 317 00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:53,190 Speaker 1: who was the main judge in Israel at the time. 318 00:19:53,260 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: This is the book of first Samuel. Samuel's kids are no, 319 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,260 Speaker 1: you know, they're not great. They're, they're manipulating things. They're 320 00:20:02,300 --> 00:20:05,500 Speaker 1: doing things for their own in, you know, pursuing their 321 00:20:05,540 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: own interests as part of their vocation. And so Israel 322 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: comes to Samuel and they say, we'd really like to 323 00:20:12,220 --> 00:20:14,699 Speaker 1: have a king. We're sort of done with this whole 324 00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:18,230 Speaker 1: who's going to be the next judge thing. We'd like 325 00:20:18,369 --> 00:20:22,190 Speaker 1: more stability. We'd like a clearer understanding of who's responsible, 326 00:20:22,250 --> 00:20:25,130 Speaker 1: when they're going to be responsible. Like, that's what they're 327 00:20:25,170 --> 00:20:27,930 Speaker 1: asking for when they're asking for a king. Right. They're 328 00:20:27,950 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: looking at the earthly structure that's been set up and 329 00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: they're saying, this doesn't work for us. 330 00:20:34,859 --> 00:20:35,859 Speaker 2: Right. 331 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: Samuel initially pushes back. Ultimately, God says, hey, look, they're 332 00:20:40,180 --> 00:20:42,909 Speaker 1: not rejecting you. They're rejecting me. They're rejecting me as 333 00:20:42,950 --> 00:20:45,490 Speaker 1: king over them. So give them their king. It's fine. 334 00:20:46,350 --> 00:20:50,550 Speaker 1: But when Samuel announces that to the people, he describes 335 00:20:51,250 --> 00:20:54,659 Speaker 1: what's going to end up happening. And basically what he 336 00:20:54,700 --> 00:20:58,220 Speaker 1: says is, look, your problem was never the judges. Your 337 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,619 Speaker 1: problem has always been obedience. You had to fear the 338 00:21:02,660 --> 00:21:06,369 Speaker 1: Lord then and keep his laws and his statutes. And 339 00:21:06,390 --> 00:21:09,590 Speaker 1: guess what? Now that you have a king, king has 340 00:21:09,609 --> 00:21:11,830 Speaker 1: to fear the Lord and you have to fear the Lord. 341 00:21:13,170 --> 00:21:19,260 Speaker 1: The structure changes, the underlying dynamic doesn't. And I think 342 00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:21,820 Speaker 1: that's something that we really need to capture as Christians. 343 00:21:22,780 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: We need to understand that God's going to move the 344 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: pieces around on the world stage. You know, I'm sure 345 00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:35,230 Speaker 1: the Israelites were not going to you know, democratically elect 346 00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:39,770 Speaker 1: in Nebuchadnezzar to come in and take over Israel during 347 00:21:39,810 --> 00:21:44,590 Speaker 1: the exile. But God saw that as a necessary correction 348 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,379 Speaker 1: and a discipline for where Israel had been going. He 349 00:21:48,420 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: actually calls Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar his servant. And then when 350 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: Persia comes in, Cyrus is actually called his anointed or Messiah. 351 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,940 Speaker 1: Shiach is the Hebrew term. And so you see that 352 00:22:02,350 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: in the book of Isaiah. And so he's using these 353 00:22:05,380 --> 00:22:08,699 Speaker 1: pagan rulers to sort of move things around. But the 354 00:22:08,859 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 1: underlying dynamics of Israel never changes. If you want to 355 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: be in, you know, if you want to be an 356 00:22:16,420 --> 00:22:19,780 Speaker 1: Israelite and you're following covenant, your first priority is always 357 00:22:20,300 --> 00:22:24,050 Speaker 1: fear the Lord, obey his laws, keep his commandments, remain faithful, 358 00:22:24,140 --> 00:22:27,670 Speaker 1: remain faithful even unto death. We see that all across 359 00:22:27,690 --> 00:22:30,700 Speaker 1: the book of Daniel. And so as we think about 360 00:22:30,740 --> 00:22:33,790 Speaker 1: some of these things, that's what I guess I mean. 361 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,889 Speaker 1: Maybe it's more when we're asking these questions about our structures, 362 00:22:39,410 --> 00:22:43,230 Speaker 1: which is totally appropriate, what we need to remember as 363 00:22:43,290 --> 00:22:47,149 Speaker 1: God's people is that the governing dynamics never really change. 364 00:22:48,670 --> 00:22:52,260 Speaker 1: Whether we shift to socialism or stay with capitalism and 365 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: make some tweaks, our job is always fear the Lord, 366 00:22:56,940 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: walk in His ways, imitate Christ, conform to his image. 367 00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:06,940 Speaker 1: That's what we do. And that sort of movement in scripture, 368 00:23:07,380 --> 00:23:12,179 Speaker 1: that there isn't a biblically authorized form of government, as 369 00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:16,550 Speaker 1: far as I can tell, right? The biblically authorized form 370 00:23:16,570 --> 00:23:20,190 Speaker 1: of government is a theocracy, but not in the sense 371 00:23:20,210 --> 00:23:24,489 Speaker 1: that that's often used in Christian nationalism. The theocracy is 372 00:23:24,609 --> 00:23:27,570 Speaker 1: God's people, who have come under the authority of the 373 00:23:27,609 --> 00:23:32,250 Speaker 1: King Jesus Christ, serving the Lord in the kingdom of God, 374 00:23:32,790 --> 00:23:36,060 Speaker 1: regardless of the consequences that had that has when they 375 00:23:36,130 --> 00:23:40,460 Speaker 1: rub up against the other empires of the earth. And so, 376 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,459 Speaker 1: you know, those are the sword. That's the framework we 377 00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: need to come with when we're looking at these different systems. 378 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: And I, I'm just convinced that as we do that, 379 00:23:52,150 --> 00:23:54,490 Speaker 1: we are going to come with a different set of eyes, 380 00:23:54,510 --> 00:23:57,129 Speaker 1: a different set of ears, uh, and a higher degree 381 00:23:57,150 --> 00:24:00,690 Speaker 1: of wisdom and trying to sort of sort through some 382 00:24:00,730 --> 00:24:01,290 Speaker 1: of these things. 383 00:24:01,830 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 2: Yeah. Cause you're focusing on the right thing and, and, 384 00:24:04,060 --> 00:24:05,859 Speaker 2: and kind of removing emotion from it. 385 00:24:05,859 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: That's right. 386 00:24:06,780 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 2: Cause you have a central, uh, point that everything's, you know, 387 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,100 Speaker 2: coming back to and coming out of. And I think that's, 388 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,610 Speaker 2: what's missing here. People are putting their hope and faith 389 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:17,670 Speaker 2: in the wrong thing as well. 390 00:24:18,670 --> 00:24:21,469 Speaker 1: When I think there's just a, a realistic expectation that 391 00:24:21,510 --> 00:24:25,189 Speaker 1: this brings spent it, and only for Christians, I won't 392 00:24:25,210 --> 00:24:29,210 Speaker 1: even say especially for Christians, it's only for Christians. It 393 00:24:29,290 --> 00:24:37,300 Speaker 1: puts this in perspective that changing our economic systems isn't trivial. 394 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: It can be very important, right? It can be something 395 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:50,370 Speaker 1: worthy of doing. And yet it's very provisional. And so 396 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,150 Speaker 1: the church doesn't do it because it's seeking to establish 397 00:24:54,820 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: The church does it in response to the word of God. 398 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: It does it because it's the right thing to do, 399 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: regardless of whether it's effective or not. And I think sometimes, 400 00:25:08,619 --> 00:25:10,010 Speaker 1: you know, when I read it, when I look at 401 00:25:10,050 --> 00:25:12,850 Speaker 1: the study, like what Gallup put out, there are aspects 402 00:25:12,890 --> 00:25:15,250 Speaker 1: of this where I suppose maybe cynically, and I know 403 00:25:15,290 --> 00:25:17,130 Speaker 1: I'm kind of reading into the data a little bit, 404 00:25:17,210 --> 00:25:20,070 Speaker 1: but what it makes me think is we're all sort 405 00:25:20,109 --> 00:25:25,780 Speaker 1: of voting from our own experience and And voicing our 406 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,300 Speaker 1: opinion based on what we think will make our lives 407 00:25:30,340 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: a little more comfortable. And I would just argue that 408 00:25:35,820 --> 00:25:42,530 Speaker 1: that perspective, that approach is way wrongheaded. Especially when we 409 00:25:42,609 --> 00:25:46,330 Speaker 1: think about the governing dynamics that the Bible shows us, 410 00:25:47,350 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: that Christians are to be obedient, even obedient unto death, 411 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:58,460 Speaker 1: even obedient unto inconvenience. And if we adopted that posture 412 00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: and just said, we're going to do what's right, we're 413 00:26:00,740 --> 00:26:02,210 Speaker 1: going to do what God is calling us to do, 414 00:26:02,270 --> 00:26:07,330 Speaker 1: we're going to do what seems appropriate and fitting theologically, 415 00:26:09,130 --> 00:26:12,530 Speaker 1: regardless of how uncomfortable it makes us, we're living in 416 00:26:12,570 --> 00:26:14,150 Speaker 1: a very different world at that point. 417 00:26:15,340 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, I agree. That's a great point. 418 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: So it's an interesting article. Like I said, I'll have 419 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,489 Speaker 1: the write-up in Christianity.com. I encourage people to go over 420 00:26:26,510 --> 00:26:29,850 Speaker 1: and read it. And I don't know, we don't need 421 00:26:29,890 --> 00:26:32,260 Speaker 1: to beat a dead horse. I think we can probably 422 00:26:32,619 --> 00:26:35,659 Speaker 1: stop it there. But we'll have the link to the 423 00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:38,020 Speaker 1: Gallup poll article and all that kind of good stuff 424 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,740 Speaker 1: in the show notes. If you wanted to look through 425 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,500 Speaker 1: the data, you can actually download the PDF and get 426 00:26:42,540 --> 00:26:44,540 Speaker 1: more granular in some of the data that they presented, 427 00:26:44,580 --> 00:26:47,510 Speaker 1: which is kind of nice. But just an interesting study 428 00:26:47,550 --> 00:26:52,070 Speaker 1: that kind of came across the old interwebs and it 429 00:26:52,090 --> 00:26:54,859 Speaker 1: caught my eye. And I thought it was just kind 430 00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:59,130 Speaker 1: of interesting. So, yeah, I appreciate your interaction with it, Nate. 431 00:26:59,350 --> 00:27:01,950 Speaker 1: And we'll leave it there unless you have any other thoughts. 432 00:27:02,530 --> 00:27:04,889 Speaker 2: No, I think that's good, man. It definitely was an 433 00:27:05,350 --> 00:27:07,570 Speaker 2: interesting topic. I certainly want to go and look at 434 00:27:07,590 --> 00:27:08,709 Speaker 2: the data myself. 435 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. All right, everybody. Well, we'll call it a day there. 436 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,270 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Thinking Christian. 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