1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 2: Build Different is a production of the American Association of 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 2: Christian Counselors. To support this podcast and learn how you 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 2: can help us to promote all our biblical content, spread 5 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 2: the Gospel, and provide mental health resources and training to 6 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 2: people everywhere, just go to aaccfoundation dot org. Again, that's 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: Aaccfoundation dot org. Welcome to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton, 8 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 2: your host, and each week I come to you exclusively 9 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: on the Life Audio podcast network. I'm proud to partner 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: with Life Audio and bring you entertaining, life changing, family 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 2: friendly podcasts for a new generation. I Built Different. Our 12 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 2: mission is to provide encouragement, hope, and challenge to help 13 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 2: push you past your limits and reach goals you never 14 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 2: thought possible. Colossians two, verse six says, So, then, just 15 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 2: as you received Christ Jesus's Lord, continue to live your 16 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 2: lives in him, rooted and built up in him. Amen. 17 00:00:54,280 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 2: Now let's roll on today's show. I'm joined by someone 18 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 2: whose work lives at the intersection of faith, mental health, 19 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: and resilience in the church, doctor Mark Mayfield. Doctor Mayfield 20 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 2: is a licensed professional counselor, a trusted voice in Christian 21 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: mental health circles and the author of multiple books, including 22 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 2: his latest that releases today as of this recording, the 23 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 2: Mental Health Handbook for Ministry. He's passionate about helping the 24 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:28,919 Speaker 2: church better support those who are struggling with anxiety, depression, trauma, addiction, loneliness, 25 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 2: and so much more, and he equips the church to 26 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 2: help people grow through their pain. No matter who you are, 27 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 2: this conversation will certainly bless you, doctor Mayfield, my friend, 28 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 2: thank you for joining me. 29 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 30 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 2: Hey, as we begin, we're here seeded just kind of 31 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 2: backstage at the AACC twenty twenty five United World Conference. 32 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 2: Seven thousand people sold out, crowd packing this place out, 33 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: the energy's rise and representing all fifty states, thirty countries. 34 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 2: We did the research this last night. I man, just 35 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 2: fascinating what God is doing. I just wanted to ask up. Clearly, 36 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: we'll dive into some of the research you've done on 37 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: loneliness and more. But community is necessary. Fellowship is necessary, 38 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 2: especially in the times that we find ourselves in culturally. 39 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 2: Speak to just the excitement that you have coming too 40 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: event like this. 41 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 3: Oh man, it's we market on our calendars. My family's 42 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 3: all here with me, so my three kids, my wife, 43 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 3: and it becomes this marked. You know, we after every 44 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 3: world conference, we put it on the calendar and we 45 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 3: just you know, tick down every week every month waiting 46 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 3: for it. And it's just so much fun. On the 47 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 3: way over here, got stopped by like ten people and 48 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 3: I remembered one name, so you know, I was doing 49 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 3: I was doing better than usual, but just that kind 50 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 3: of excitement. People are just glad to be here. I 51 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 3: was meeting with somebody that's part of a big treatment 52 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 3: center that's a Christian and she was saying today, she goes, 53 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 3: I'm finally with my people, and that just hit going, like, 54 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 3: we are in the front lines of this mental health crisis, 55 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,399 Speaker 3: but we're also in a lot of ways fighting the 56 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 3: field of secular counseling to be heard as quality, clinically 57 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 3: sound Christian mental health professionals. And so when she said that, 58 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 3: like okay, that kind of hit home for me, like 59 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 3: we're with our people, which is kind of cool. 60 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I love these gatherings because it reminds us that 61 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,399 Speaker 2: we're not alone. Sometimes, you know, ministry mental health care 62 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 2: can feel kind of in those silos. But to gather 63 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: together to worship God, to honestly lock arm in arm 64 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: with one another. It's a comforting feeling. And I'll say this, 65 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: we need comfort because the last several years, especially as 66 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: if this recording, the last several weeks have been really 67 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: chaotic and it's been heartbreaking. And we've seen obviously mental 68 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 2: health disaster strike and run rampant across this country, across 69 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: this globe. But I mean we're seeing probably things skyrocketing, 70 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: especially fear. 71 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 3: I think fear is at the core of it, all right, 72 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 3: and everybody asks me, why aren't we getting better? You know, 73 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 3: we talk about this a lot at ACC, and really 74 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 3: it comes down to this, the hope of Christ is 75 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 3: not interwoven into what we do like it should be, 76 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 3: which is why we're so passionate about what we do 77 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 3: here at AACC and what I like to do, you know, 78 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 3: and the writing piece and the counseling pieces and that 79 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 3: kind of stuff. But it's yeah, I mean, if you 80 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 3: look at the stats since two thousand and seven, it's 81 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 3: anxiety and depression is almost doubling on itself, and we 82 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 3: have more mental health professionals than ever before. So statistically 83 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 3: we should be getting better, yes, and we're not. 84 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 2: Right, And I think that's what prompted you. I would 85 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,679 Speaker 2: assume in your spirit to write a really special piece 86 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: of work to really help educate and equip the church 87 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 2: with the necessary language. Because I mean, let's begin here. 88 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 2: I guess a lot of pastors will come to us 89 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: and they'll say this, I want to address mental health 90 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: from a bullpit. I want to talk about it. I 91 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: just don't know how to Mark, I don't know how 92 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: to Zach. It's like every time I bring it up, 93 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: it almost sounds taboo. It sounds like this new age stuff, 94 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 2: and people I just don't want to say the wrong thing, 95 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 2: so we don't say anything, so they don't say anything. 96 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 2: Indecisions a decision after all, speak to obviously have a 97 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 2: heart again, we just mentioned release of the book was 98 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 2: two day as of this recording. The Mental Health Handbook 99 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 2: for Ministry for the Church, speak to just the heart 100 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 2: behind it all. 101 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,239 Speaker 3: Well, it's funny I had this desire. I'm a former pastor, 102 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 3: you know, I guess, once a pastor, always a pastor. 103 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: But I've had this desire for a long time. 104 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 3: And I've had this idea for a very long time 105 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 3: and published, you know, and presented it to six publishers 106 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 3: and they all said no. And so the seventh one 107 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 3: was Baker Publishing and they said yes, and so they 108 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 3: took a risk on it. But the heart behind it 109 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 3: is that very thing. It's I think we get a 110 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 3: lot of pastors that are just paralyzed by the need 111 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 3: and they think they have to be the end. I'll 112 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 3: be all fix all, and it's like, no, just be 113 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 3: a stopgap, be a presence. And so this book is 114 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 3: essentially a desk reference guide. It's not a read through. 115 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 3: I tell pastors right now, like, you can read through 116 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 3: it if you want to be pretty boring. But if 117 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 3: you want to read through it, read through it, but 118 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 3: grab the tab grab tabs like you tab your Bible 119 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 3: or you tab your r DSM five right, tab right, 120 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,239 Speaker 3: and then label it depression chapter, anxiety chapter, LGBTQ plus chapter, 121 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 3: eating disorder chapter, you know the one you you know 122 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 3: working with you know, a high achieving families chapter. Yes, 123 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 3: And when you've got people coming into your church, just 124 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 3: pick it up and tab over to that chapter and 125 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 3: prepare yourself. What does the Bible say about it? What 126 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 3: is it clinically? What should you do? And then when 127 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 3: you're above your pay grade, like what's the next steps? 128 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 3: So that's basically the gist of the book, so that 129 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 3: instead of crippling pastors, it equip them. 130 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 2: I've heard you say in the pastes, even in personal 131 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 2: conversations that I think a lot of churches and even 132 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 2: pastors and ministry leaders they're well meaning, but they're under equipped. Yes, 133 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: And so you know, we talk a lot about how 134 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 2: science and scripture they really do go hand in hand, 135 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 2: especially when it's truth based, right effective science. It's going 136 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 2: to backscripture and vice versa. But being able to recognize 137 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: then why do the fields of psychology and theology clash 138 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: so much? And why have we separated them within the 139 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: church so much? What would you say to them? 140 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 3: I think we don't have an informed understanding. And so 141 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 3: I have this conversation all the time, you know, teaching 142 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 3: at Colorado Christian and the Master's program, students come, you know, 143 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 3: I think bright eyed and like, we're going to do this, 144 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 3: and then they're like, but it's going to go against 145 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 3: my faith. It's going to go against this, And I'm like, 146 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 3: so it take a step back. And what I always 147 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 3: tell them is if we go back to Genesis one 148 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 3: and Genesis two, and justis three the fall of man, right, 149 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 3: that separation from God has disrupted our identity. Our identity, 150 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 3: the idea of identity is to bond to something. We're 151 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 3: not bonding to Christ. We're going to find something else 152 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 3: to bond to. But that yearning of bonding to Christ 153 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 3: is still there. And I said, so, every theorist is 154 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 3: a part of this broken world created the image of God. 155 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 3: Every theorist is trying to make sense of this world 156 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 3: that's broken. So don't you think if we have that 157 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 3: pull towards bonding to Christ and we don't know it, 158 00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 3: and we see the brokenness around us, there's going to 159 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 3: be shreds and threads of truth in every single theory 160 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 3: because that's the human condition. We are wanting to find 161 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 3: our purpose and our belonging and our creator, whether we 162 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 3: realize it or not. So I challenge students. I'm teaching 163 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 3: theories of personality right now, and I just challenge my 164 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 3: go find the thread of truth in every theory and 165 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 3: then write it down, bring it back to me, and 166 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 3: let's talk about it, and then how do we integrate that? 167 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 3: Or my new favorite term right now, David Anentwissel uses 168 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 3: this term of reintegration. Yes, right, not integration, because it's 169 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 3: not the first time. It's getting back to the way 170 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 3: that it was meant to be. So how do we 171 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 3: reintegrate these things into our Christian and biblical worldview so 172 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 3: that we can be the best help for that person 173 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 3: in front of us. And so clinical side what we 174 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,479 Speaker 3: do pastoral side can be done very effectively. 175 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: Absolutely, obviously this book is packed with clinical wisdom, but 176 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,599 Speaker 2: also from a biblical worldview. And what I want to 177 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 2: chat about here for a moment is mental health at large. 178 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 2: I think sometimes people don't really understand what it all encompasses. 179 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 2: We know this every time the Bible or Scripture references 180 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: the soul. It's very holistic in nature, similar to the 181 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 2: root of the word psychology su k r, which is body, 182 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 2: mind and spirit. It's holistic and so recognizing it's not 183 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 2: just about anxious thoughts or stinking thinking right, or these 184 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 2: cognitive distortions. Yes, that's a part of it, but man, 185 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 2: it is relational at large. Speak to just as you 186 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 2: teach as a professor and as you continue to build 187 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: out resources for the church. What is mental health? 188 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 3: YEA, well, I think you spoke to it just there. 189 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 3: It's the it's the integration or reintegration of those three things. 190 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 3: I think we've as a society have separated it. And 191 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 3: if your body is sick, go to the doctor. If 192 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 3: you're you know, if your mind is go to the 193 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 3: counselor if your soul is stick go to the pastor Well, 194 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 3: what if we were all equipped to handle those things? 195 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 3: And how much of our physical sickness is actually due 196 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 3: to our soul in our mind? You know? 197 00:09:58,200 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: And so. 198 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 3: Of those things, and I think really equipping the pastoral 199 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 3: community to go, like if we have a true theology 200 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 3: of suffering and a truth understanding of what you just said. 201 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 3: You know this the mind, body, spirit, it's it's almost 202 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 3: like you can't unwind or unweave them. They're so interconnected. 203 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 3: And so how do we find ways to engage and 204 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 3: partner with each other instead of fighting each other? 205 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: You know? 206 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 3: We I have conversations a lot, and I'm sure you 207 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 3: do too. With euthetic biblical counselors that the Bible only 208 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 3: And I'm like, I don't disagree, but we're missing a 209 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 3: large swath of wisdom in that. So how do we 210 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 3: work together instead of fighting against each other? 211 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: You know? 212 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 3: And so the same thing with physical doctors. I mean, 213 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 3: I can't tell the times I've fought with physical doctors 214 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 3: to get a sleep deprive DG or you know, something 215 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 3: to go at. Their physical symptoms are a result of 216 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 3: something going on in the brain and their mind. And 217 00:10:57,960 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 3: let's let's get to the root of it. What do 218 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 3: you talking about? You don't know what you're talking about. 219 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 3: I'm like, maybe I do, yes, absolutely, And let's have 220 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 3: those conversations instead of be fighting. 221 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 2: And that's why I think I respect and appreciate about 222 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: you so much, Mark, is that you have a love 223 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: for the difficult conversations. You're willing to lean in, You're 224 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 2: willing to show up. In this book alone. You cover 225 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 2: some hard topics depression, trauma, grief, self harm, personality disorders, 226 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 2: so much more things that again the church maybe doesn't 227 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 2: feel equipped or maybe doesn't feel efficient in their messaging. Yeah, 228 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 2: and for you know, you have a background and even 229 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 2: stepping up to the plate and working with families who 230 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 2: have been deeply impacted and burdened by suicide. Like you're 231 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: somebody that knows language, and so I'm thinking about just 232 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 2: like the church, what might be is some practical advice 233 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 2: in the middle of this conversation today, rather than saying 234 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 2: nothing because they're so afraid. What are some things that 235 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 2: they can begin to do to create that non judgmental 236 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,599 Speaker 2: atmosphere to come as they are, but to leave a 237 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: little bit different. 238 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 3: Sure, I love that question. So two things I would say, 239 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 3: And I use this with my kids. So it's a 240 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 3: parenting technique too, right, So don't come up to your 241 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 3: kid if you notice that they're going well. First of all, 242 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 3: we've got to be a student of your congregation. You 243 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 3: got to be a student of the people you're working with. 244 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 3: How many times have you worked with pastors and leaders 245 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 3: and they look three feet past you and you're like, 246 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 3: you're not even I'm not even. 247 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: Here, and I've been here. I know you feel seen. 248 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 3: So I really work with parents and pastors, know your kids, 249 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 3: know your congregation, and be not afraid to go, hey, 250 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,599 Speaker 3: good to see is Zach how you doing? And you 251 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 3: can go I'm fine, but I look at your eyes. 252 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 3: I know you well enough to go nah, I don't 253 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 3: think you're doing fine. And then not pushing, but noticing, 254 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 3: and then I'll say say this, I'm ready to listen 255 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 3: when you want to talk. And I deal with my kids. 256 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 3: I encourage people to do that all the time. Why 257 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 3: because that opens the door to go. Okay, Mark just 258 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 3: asked me to he wants to listen to me. I'm 259 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 3: going to get a lecture. I'm not going to be fixed. 260 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 3: I'm not going to be you know whatever. I just 261 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 3: need to be listened to. And so then the invitation 262 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 3: comes in. And then when you show up, step up. 263 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 3: I don't care if my you know, if my phone's 264 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 3: ringing it to you, I'm gonna drop it because I asked, 265 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 3: you know, pick up the phone and talk to listen. 266 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 3: So I think that's one big one. The second piece 267 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 3: of that is, don't ask somebody how they're doing unless 268 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 3: you've got fifteen minutes. I get so frustrated with this culture, 269 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 3: especially down in the South where I'm at. You know, 270 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 3: you got the South in Virginia too, of like oh 271 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 3: I'm blessed better than I deserve, you know, all that 272 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 3: kind of stuff, And I'm like, just stop it. Like 273 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 3: we're perpetuating a culture of loneliness and isolation when we 274 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 3: do that. And so I guarantee you if you try this, 275 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 3: it is. It's interesting. I did that once with somebody 276 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 3: at the grocery store that we picked the same we 277 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 3: always picked the same checkout line with the same cash here, 278 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 3: just to build relationships. And I did that with them 279 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 3: and they're like, oh, like you really want to know. 280 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, Like I wouldn't ask if I didn't, 281 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 3: you know. So it just creates that invitation for community. 282 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 2: I'm going to stop this right there and jump into 283 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 2: say you're listening to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton. We 284 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: need to break for a brief message from our sponsors. 285 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 2: I'll be back with our guests to keep the conversation flowing. 286 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 2: Right after this, you're listening to Life Audio doctor Mayfield 287 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: to pick up our conversation. We've talked a lot about 288 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 2: what mental health is. We've talked a little bit about 289 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 2: some of the challenges that we're seeing across culture. But 290 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: one that I want to specifically dive deep into that 291 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: you've done a lot of research and you actually have 292 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 2: a clinical workbook for us here and our Hope and 293 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 2: Healing series is on loneliness. 294 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: Yep. 295 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 2: Loneliness is something that I think is infiltrating all across 296 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 2: the country. Why because Hell would love to get you alone. 297 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 2: Isolation is the enemy right to faith into progress in life. 298 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: Speak to some of the research that you found on 299 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: just the detriment that it can be well. 300 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: It is the mental health crisis. 301 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 3: I challenge people to go that we are in a 302 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 3: mental health crisis without loneliness. And I think loneliness is 303 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 3: kind of the impetus for the mental health crisis. I 304 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 3: think that's the only reason that we're seeing an increase 305 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 3: in anxiety depression amongst our teens, amongst our young adults, 306 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 3: increase in suicide overdoses. 307 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: It's because we've curated. 308 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 3: Our life has been curated for them without physical face 309 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 3: to face contact, and so there's no reciprocity, there's no 310 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 3: give and take, there's no feeling of the energy in 311 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 3: the room, there's no ability to ask that question like 312 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 3: we talked about before the break of just hey, I'm 313 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 3: ready to listen when you want to talk. I know 314 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 3: that you're not doing okay type of thing, but I'm 315 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 3: just gonna be like, I'm going to be very bold 316 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 3: in this statement. Is there is no healing apart from 317 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 3: Christ period. And I remember when I first started out 318 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 3: in this field almost twenty years ago, I'm like, yeah, 319 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 3: I'm going to step into the secular counseling world because 320 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 3: I like, you know, I learned from Larry Krab. I 321 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 3: liked him, but I think he's a little bit too. 322 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 3: I'm sitting here now twenty years later. 323 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: Goo. 324 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: Nope, Larry Krab had it figured out, and this is 325 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: the way where we need to be. 326 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 3: Like like, you know, obviously I'm not going to sit 327 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 3: in my sessions and proselytize, but like the hope of 328 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 3: Christ is where it's at, and I think that's where 329 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 3: the church is poised. Thirty six So SIGNA did a 330 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 3: study twenty twenty two, twenty thousand participants. Right, you just 331 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 3: finished your doctorate. You know, that's a big example. Of 332 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 3: twenty thousand participants, fifty four percent felt like no one 333 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 3: knew them well. And this is the one that gets 334 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 3: me all the time is thirty six percent felt like 335 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 3: they had nobody to turn to when life got tough. 336 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 3: So if you think of a room of one thousand, 337 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 3: you're gonna have multiple thousands here at the conference, But 338 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 3: a room of a thousand, that's five hundred and forty 339 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 3: people didn't fel like they had anybody that knew them well, 340 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 3: and three hundred and sixty had no one to turn 341 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 3: to when life got tough. Y'all the Church is primed 342 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 3: and ready to be the receiving arms of this movement. 343 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 3: Loneliness is a state of being, not a state of fear. 344 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 3: And I think a lot of times we think we 345 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 3: can jolt somebody back into feeling better. Well, no, it's consistency, 346 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 3: it's intentionality, it's reciprocity, it's commitment to get them back 347 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 3: to a feeling of being seen and known and loved 348 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 3: and valued. 349 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you attribute mark some of those loneliness 350 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 2: statistics too, because those are eye opening, those are staggering, 351 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 2: those heartbreak and I'm thinking about the next generation. Obviously, 352 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 2: we could talk about technology Jonathan Hight's book right, the 353 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 2: Anxious Generation, just like raising our kids on Mars by 354 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 2: giving them no limits as it relates to their devices. 355 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 2: I mean, it's crazy because we do live in a 356 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 2: comparison culture that's built on perceived perfection. We do live 357 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 2: in a world where there is cyber bullying and so 358 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 2: much is happening. There's so much going on. What are 359 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 2: some of the contributing factors that you're seeing that are 360 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: really beginning to almost like push this loneliness thing over. 361 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 3: The edge complace in Christianity, I think is one of them. 362 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 3: I hope then in these last couple of weeks that's 363 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 3: gotten shaken loose a little bit. Uh. You know, love 364 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 3: the quote let's make Heaven crowded. I mean that this 365 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 3: is the right place to do that, right. Yes, So 366 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 3: I think complacing Christianity is a big one. I think 367 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 3: crippling parents not to know what to do and what 368 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 3: to say, I think a rampant I think the Christian 369 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 3: Church is afraid to speak up to the gender ideology 370 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 3: crap that's going on because they're afraid they're going to 371 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 3: be handled. Right, and we've got a dear friend that 372 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 3: works with us that was canceled out of California and 373 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 3: like that. She's she's bold and she's stood her ground. 374 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 3: Like I think there's a lot of fear in that, 375 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 3: and I hope that's changing. I think there's that in 376 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 3: the indoctrination culture. I think parents don't understand that when 377 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 3: their kids play games online, that there's open doors to 378 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 3: things that they have no idea on. I think the 379 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 3: device piece is it. I mean it's not the only thing, 380 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 3: but it's a it's a big contributor. I just think 381 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 3: it's a it's a lack of just to simplify it, 382 00:18:54,880 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 3: it's a lack of understanding Deuteronomy six right, first of all, 383 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 3: the shamah right, love Lord, you got with all your heart, mind, soul, 384 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 3: on strength. But then it talks about this idea of 385 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 3: how do we do discipleship with our kids when we 386 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 3: wake up and when we lie down, when we walk 387 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 3: along the way, bind them to our hearts, bind them 388 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 3: you know, sitting at the you know, all these things, 389 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 3: and so really working hard to equip the family and 390 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 3: to be back. I mean doctor Dobson again, another great 391 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 3: man that was lost this year, had I think a 392 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 3: corner on the market, understanding that the family was the 393 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 3: culture shift of a generation and we have to get 394 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 3: back to equipping moms and dads to be the chief 395 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 3: disciplers of their homes and to stand up and go, 396 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 3: you know what, We're not going to be like that family. 397 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 3: Like for us, devices are a tool, not a luxury, 398 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 3: you know, So there's a lot that we can do. 399 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 3: Like our household, we play video games on Friday nights 400 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 3: as a family, not carte blanc whenever they want to. 401 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 3: My seventeen year old has a dumb phone, and we 402 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,719 Speaker 3: told her at seventeen she can get a smartphone, She's like, oh, 403 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 3: what one love it like? So that creating that culture 404 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 3: that gets back to faith, family foundation. I do think 405 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,959 Speaker 3: if that happened, we would see a decline in the statistics, 406 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 3: not an increase. 407 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 2: I love what you're saying. We need a courageous level 408 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 2: of Christianity. CS Lewis said this, The only thing the 409 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 2: church cannot be is moderately important. We have to step 410 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 2: up and stand in the gap. Really just continue to 411 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: move forward in this particular moment in time, because it's 412 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 2: necessary more now than ever. You're talking about. Recently, I 413 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 2: saw a pastor had asked AI, if you were the devil, 414 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 2: what would you do? And it went through this entire 415 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 2: spiel and it was fascinating how accurate it was, almost 416 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: to the point of being scary. But there was a 417 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 2: statement in there that said, I would fracture the family, 418 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 2: because if I can fracture the family, I can fracture 419 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 2: the future. And it's exactly what you're getting at right, 420 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 2: this idea of my goodness. I want to make sure 421 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 2: that we're investing into families, into relationships, because that is 422 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: where help and hope and healing is ultimately found. Healing 423 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 2: cannot be found in hiding. And what I love about 424 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 2: what you've done, and you've really made it a mission 425 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 2: throughout your life. You've written a lot of books on this, 426 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: and you've talked a lot of I'm sure talks and 427 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 2: sermons on this very thing is giving people language to 428 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 2: begin to verbalize their emotions, to experience them, to explore them, 429 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 2: but then to express them right speak to the importance 430 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: of that. 431 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 3: Well, I think we have to understand that emotions and 432 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 3: feelings are two different things. And I love doing a 433 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 3: talk when I have families. So when I do a 434 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 3: family talk, I'm like, so, how is how are emotions 435 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 3: defined in your home? 436 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: And they're like, I don't know. 437 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 3: And then I said, then I'll say the next question is, so, 438 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,959 Speaker 3: how would you define feelings? And there's like deer in headlights, 439 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 3: I'm like, how many of you recognize that that feelings 440 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 3: and emotions are two different things? Like everybody raises their hands, 441 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 3: and I said, emotions are God given physiological responses to 442 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 3: something outside of us or inside of us. So it's 443 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 3: kind of that trigger, you know, when I get angry, 444 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 3: the hair in the back of my head stands up, 445 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 3: or my fiskit that's an emotion. Emotions are not sinful. 446 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 3: Feelings are sinful or can be sinful. So when we 447 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 3: look at something like you know, and I think it's 448 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 3: Joshua where it talks about the heartest, deceitful above all 449 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 3: use who can know it? 450 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 2: You know? 451 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 3: It goes on and talk in context that God's the 452 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 3: one that searches it and knows it. Well, it's the feelings. 453 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 3: So the feelings, then are the meanings we make from 454 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 3: those emotional experiences based off of our observations and experiences 455 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 3: of life or our childhood primarily foundations. 456 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: Right, So I always tell people. 457 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,719 Speaker 3: I tell pastors like y'all have been telling people that 458 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 3: their emotions are bad, Like, how about we start teaching 459 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 3: people how to engage those emotions and rewrite their feelings 460 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 3: for positive. There's no batter, you know, there's no good 461 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 3: or bad emotions. There might be some good or bad feelings, 462 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 3: but what we do with it? So I think it's 463 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 3: again and this is where I get really frustrated with 464 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 3: our counseling profession and with the pastoral We finished seminary. 465 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 3: We go out into the world. We're the best pastor. 466 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 3: We're going to be the first two or three years 467 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 3: outside of seminary. But if we don't lean into continue 468 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 3: education and to growth into community and to iron and 469 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 3: chreprene iron, then we're gonna just do what we know 470 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 3: and not be challenged. Same thing with counselors. Right where 471 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 3: the best counselors two or three years after graduation. If 472 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 3: we don't continue to push ourselves and so I always 473 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 3: challenge pastors, maybe you're wrong, and that's okay if you are. 474 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 3: What does it look like to lean into something with 475 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 3: humility and vulnerability and then. 476 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 2: Adjust continue, like you said, to have that awareness, to 477 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 2: have that atonement, and then to also have the humility 478 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 2: or the accurate understanding right of who we are because 479 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 2: we don't have all the answers, we need help. And 480 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 2: I think that bridges the gap to another question that 481 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: I would have. You talk a lot in the book 482 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 2: about being able to recognize when to help and when 483 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: to refer. Yes, pastors, you know, just like us. I 484 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 2: think we talked a lot about that our mental health 485 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 2: coaching program, of like, hey, we can do it so much, 486 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: we can help recognize specific things, we can respond more effectively, 487 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: we can relate in times of need. But then we 488 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 2: have to learn when to we read for help us 489 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 2: understand that if a pastor's listening today and they're like, 490 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 2: you know what, I feel like I've been walking alongside 491 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 2: of somebody for a while, but it just doesn't seem 492 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 2: like they're getting better. Maybe they need some additional help. 493 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 2: What would you say to that referral process? 494 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, first of all, we know that twenty four 495 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,160 Speaker 3: to forty percent of people go to the church. First, Yeah, right, 496 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 3: I mean back in twenty eighteen, your dad now are 497 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 3: part of the HHS Partnership for Faith in Mental Health. Ye, 498 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 3: putting this guide together, and the first step, one of 499 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 3: the first or second steps of that is this question 500 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 3: and this idea of I think for a pastor stepping 501 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 3: back and going is this person using you. 502 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: Solely for their support? 503 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 3: If they are, maybe you need to figure out a 504 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 3: way to get them to expand their network and their 505 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 3: their their support network, because being the sole provider of 506 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 3: their support is codependent. Then there's enmeshment, and there's a 507 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 3: whole other issue of the issues that go with that. 508 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 3: But two, if they are coming to you and they're 509 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 3: not making any movement, how many times have we worked 510 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 3: with people that just kind of enjoy being in the 511 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 3: victim mindset. They don't know any better their their their 512 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 3: identity is, and their disorder or their struggle. As counselors 513 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 3: were equipped and trained on how to get the train 514 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 3: moving and that kind of stuff. Pastors aren't, you know, 515 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 3: And so like I've been meeting with this person, I've 516 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 3: been bent over backwards. It's what about Bob, you know 517 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 3: type of scenario. And I can't get them to change. 518 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 3: I can't even to move. That's number one. I think 519 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 3: Number two is I always ask pastors look inward when 520 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 3: you're sitting with somebody, if you're starting to feel a 521 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,719 Speaker 3: little bit crazy or disregulated, maybe it's a time for 522 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 3: you to get some extra support too, because that's pulling 523 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 3: on maybe some of your own triggers, maybe your own story, 524 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 3: your own history, and you're going to need that extra support. 525 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 3: And then the third pieces, well, I'm afraid that if 526 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 3: I do that, they're going to leave my church. Like well, 527 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 3: I'm not telling you to drop them off at the 528 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 3: corner and put a sign around their neck and say, 529 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 3: you know, you find me a need a therapist, Like 530 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 3: get them connected with a therapist, maybe even go to 531 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 3: their first session with them. 532 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: Yes, sit with. 533 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 3: Them, help hand them off, and say, hey, I'm going 534 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 3: to be here to be your spiritual support. I want 535 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 3: this person to be your clinical support, and we're not 536 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 3: going to let you go. We're going to do this together. 537 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 3: That could revolutionize how we care for our people. Now, 538 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 3: if you're bigger than a three hundred member church, then 539 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 3: you should have volunteers or support people in your church 540 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 3: that you can bring alongside you know as well, and 541 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 3: go we're doing this together. Maybe get mental health coach 542 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 3: trained and have a bunch of that going. I mean, 543 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 3: I don't there's a lot of different options in that. 544 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 3: I think it's an ego trip for a pastor to 545 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 3: say I've got this without any support or needed referrals. 546 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 2: I y's the most dangerous three words that anyone could say. 547 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 2: I got this. Yeah, right, because man, we are better 548 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 2: and we're stronger together. We need people, We need the 549 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 2: help that we also desperately long for. Doctor Mark. I 550 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 2: want to ask you this because I'm thinking about an 551 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 2: audience member out there's maybe struggling with their mental health 552 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 2: and they've appreciated some of the things that you've shared, 553 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 2: some of the wisdom that they've gleaned from this conversation already, 554 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 2: but I know that you're somebody that has a backstory 555 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 2: when it comes to just mental health and struggles and challenges, 556 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: just like all of us. Are you a stranger to suffering? 557 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 2: And I want to ask this for you know, the 558 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 2: person out there who feels like they're in a moment 559 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 2: of need or powerlessness. I remember my dad always saying 560 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 2: that it's our moments of powerlessness that actually draw us 561 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 2: closer to right and can reveal the character of God's 562 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 2: heart the most. In the midst of your struggles, in 563 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 2: the midst of your challenge growing up with those you know, 564 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 2: horrific anxiety and different things like that loneliness at the 565 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 2: end of the day, speak to us about what you've 566 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 2: found about the heart of God and the character of 567 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 2: his heart. 568 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 3: You know, I think it was in my I don't 569 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 3: remember what EMDR session it was because I've done my 570 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 3: own MDR work, But one of the things we do 571 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 3: in MDR, so those that don't know EMDR is eye 572 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 3: movement to sensitization reprocessing, and it's a tool to help 573 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 3: separate the trauma trigger and the emotional reliving. So when 574 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 3: you do it, you actually can make it a memory 575 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 3: and not it can you know, and we get triggered. 576 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 3: It's our trauma that's being triggered. So I was getting 577 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 3: triggered a lot, and I'm like, I need to go. 578 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 3: I want to get trained in MDR. But I was 579 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 3: probably need to do my own. And it was a 580 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 3: moment of a memory that I had after I had 581 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 3: Part of my story was the I was doing a 582 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 3: class presentation. 583 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: The bullies. 584 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 3: Teacher stepped out. Bullies pulled my pants down in front 585 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 3: of the class and got my underwear and I was 586 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 3: exposed in front of the whole class and everybody's laughing 587 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 3: and pointing, and I did know Jesus didn't feel anywhere near, 588 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 3: you know. And I held that for a long time, 589 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 3: like I'm twenty six now twenty seven of them going 590 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 3: through my my EMDR stuff that's fifteen years, you know, 591 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 3: and held onto kind of this view of God, of 592 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 3: being a distant, uninvolved God because of my experience, still 593 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 3: loved him, still went to church, still you know, felt 594 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 3: called the ministry was you know, pastoring and that kind 595 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 3: of stuff. Remember in my are processing. So the way 596 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 3: it is, they bring up the memory and then we 597 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 3: do you know, bioltal stimulation, so light bar pulsters or 598 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 3: something just to help the brain kind of digest the process. 599 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,479 Speaker 3: And the therapist goes, what's coming up for you now? 600 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 3: And I'm in this moment in this classroom and I'm 601 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,239 Speaker 3: sitting there on the couch just balling my eyes out 602 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 3: as I'm processing this, and she goes, what's coming up 603 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 3: for you? And I said, I'm seeing Jesus standing in 604 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 3: front of me, blocking me between the classroom and my humanity. 605 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 3: And I never I never expected to see him there. 606 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 3: And so just in that moment, just reoriented that, like God, 607 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 3: you know, Jesus is so uniquely familiar with our struggles 608 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 3: and with our suffering that he's not distant. And so 609 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 3: to have that again it's it's my mind trying to 610 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 3: make sense of stuff, but just that reworked my whole 611 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 3: relationship with Jesus, that he is so intimately involved in 612 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 3: our our joy and our rejoicing but also in our sorrows. 613 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 3: We just have to kind of get that's gonna sound bad, 614 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 3: but like get over ourselves in some ways and look 615 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 3: up and go like, oh, you are here, and you 616 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 3: do care. You're not this mean grandfather God that's shining 617 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 3: a magnifying glass on me and hoping that you know, 618 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 3: or whatever our viewpoints are. 619 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: So I'll to answer your question. 620 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 3: But that was just, you know, kind of a eye 621 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 3: opening moment for me, you know, many many years ago, 622 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 3: and it's stuck with me. And that's kind of how 623 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 3: I try to create our counseling sessions absolutely, you know, 624 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 3: for our clients. 625 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 2: Like you said, though, that God isn't just this authoritarian 626 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 2: up in the sky that allows bad things to happen 627 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 2: to his children. He's actually a God who walks alongside 628 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 2: of us and experiences those very things with us as well. 629 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 2: Hebrews Ford talks about that we serve a high priest 630 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 2: that is being able to empathize with every one of 631 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 2: the struggles that we face, right because he has been 632 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 2: tempted and tried in every single way, so being able 633 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 2: to recognize God for who he really is. But then 634 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 2: I'm going to kind of wrap up today's conversation with 635 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 2: two different questions, one directly to our audience listening and 636 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 2: maybe one to the church overall. So the audience listening 637 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 2: that maybe feels bullied by life and they felt like, man, 638 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 2: they've just been bruised and beaten and battered. What's a 639 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 2: word of hope and just some practical next steps that 640 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 2: they can begin taking so that way they can too 641 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 2: receive the help, the hope and the healing of Jesus. 642 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 3: So I think one big one, to borrow from actually 643 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 3: watching some of Charlie's stuff the other day to his 644 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 3: favorite quote, this too shall pass, I think is a 645 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 3: huge one. I think we get so stuck in the 646 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 3: moment that this is the way it's going to be always. 647 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 3: I think that's one one big thing. But what I 648 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 3: would challenge, and I challenge my girls with this all 649 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 3: the time, what is the golden thread of God's faithfulness 650 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 3: in the trial. So when something's going bad, we'll sit 651 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 3: and listen and let them complain and you know, struggle, 652 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 3: and then I'll say, okay, I need you to close 653 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 3: your eyes for a minute and let me know where 654 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 3: it's the golden thread, the ray of light of God's 655 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 3: faithfulness through this tribulation and trial. 656 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,719 Speaker 1: And I deal with my clients too, But that shakes us. 657 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: It makes us look at the minute. 658 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 3: It might be very very small, but it gives us 659 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 3: a chance to go you know what, Oh, I'm not 660 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 3: doing this alone. Oh, this is this is growth producing 661 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 3: character producing this two shall pat like there's an end 662 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 3: to it. I think it's one big one. And I 663 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 3: think with that, having my clients recognize they actually have 664 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 3: agency in choosing how they respond. I think a lot 665 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 3: of times we think we're tossed to and fro by life, 666 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 3: but it's like, no. 667 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: We actually have agency. 668 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 3: We are not. We are free to choose. We're not 669 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 3: free from the consequences of our choices, but we're free 670 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 3: to choose. And if we choose not to do something 671 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 3: and to let us be battered in rus by the world, 672 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 3: then that's the consequence. But if we go you know what, 673 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 3: this sucks and it does and that's okay. 674 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: This is hard. 675 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 3: I don't like it, sure, and I'm gonna choose joy. 676 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 3: I'm gonna choose hope. I'm gonna choose community. I'm gonna 677 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 3: choose to look for the golden thread of God's faithfulness. 678 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 3: It actually does something. We know, this right to the 679 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 3: physiology of our brain and helps it heal. 680 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 2: This too shall pass. Yeah, like you said, every storm 681 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 2: runs out of rain. But at the same time, it 682 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 2: is your choice and how you will respond. I'm thinking 683 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 2: of James Chapter one, two to four. Consider a pure joy, 684 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 2: my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 685 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 2: or you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance, 686 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 2: So let perseverance finish its work so that you may 687 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 2: be mature, complete, lacking nothing. We don't consider a joy 688 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 2: because of the trial. Consider a joy because of what 689 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 2: that trial might produce in and through us, if we 690 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 2: allow God to let it. Yep, keep on going. The 691 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 2: last question. I'll follow up with this to the church, 692 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 2: specifically clarion call right from this book, the Mental Health 693 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 2: Handbook for the Church, for ministry and overall, what is 694 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 2: one or two things that the church, maybe a pastor 695 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,720 Speaker 2: out there today, maybe a ministry leader can be doing 696 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 2: to create an atmosphere of healing, to create an atmosphere 697 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: that is non judgmental. So that way, maybe just maybe 698 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 2: somebody that walks into the door, somebody that's sitting in 699 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 2: a congregation, somebody that you're sitting across from in a 700 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 2: conversation might be able to experience the very thing that 701 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 2: God is hoping for their life as well. 702 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: Well. 703 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 3: Not necessarily think they're going to like this answer much, 704 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 3: but it's a challenge. 705 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: Reflect on your own stuff first. 706 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 3: Is there anything in you that needs to be healed 707 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 3: to be able to be that, because an incongruent, inauthentic 708 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 3: individual is never going to be able to create that 709 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 3: for their church and their congregation. 710 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: Start with yourself first. 711 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 3: And if you need to raise your hand and say 712 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 3: I need to go to counseling, I need to go 713 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,560 Speaker 3: to marriage counsel, I need some coaching, I need a 714 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 3: spiritual advisor. There's stuff in me that needs to be healed. 715 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 3: Do that first, because the outpouring of that is going 716 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 3: to create what you need in your congregation, not the 717 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 3: other way around. And so if you need a stopgap, 718 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 3: I mean a shameless plug by the book, buy one 719 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 3: for a friend, by the church down the street, whatever, like, 720 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 3: get this in the hands of everybody. 721 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 1: It's again, it's just it's a tool. 722 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 3: If the person using the tool is not certified in 723 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 3: it or healed in it, it's not going to do anything. 724 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 3: So start with yourself, Start with your family, start with 725 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 3: your wife, husband, Take care of your own soul and 726 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 3: your own mind first before you do anything ministry wise 727 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 3: that looks like counseling. 728 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: Doctor mayfield work in our audience go to pick up 729 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 2: a copy of your new book, The Mental Health Handbook 730 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 2: for the church and for ministry. But also where can 731 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 2: they go to find out more about you? 732 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 3: The book Amazon where books are sold. Baker Publishing has 733 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 3: got it on their website. My new website, mental health 734 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 3: made Simple. Dot life is where you can come find 735 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 3: about me. Also a ACC dot net. There's you know, 736 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 3: Google my name, I don't know I can find find 737 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 3: There's a lot of different places you can find stuff. 738 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 2: So mentalhealthmadsimple, dot life, AACC dot net, Amazon wherever books 739 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 2: are sold. I hope and pray that you guys would 740 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 2: lean into the opportunity and this resource that doctor Mark 741 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 2: Mayfield has provided us. I'll close you with this final thought. 742 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 2: It's a clarion call to each and every one of 743 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 2: us listening. Recently, an e F downs was that an 744 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 2: Ewoman conference for us in Hershey, Pennsylvania, and she gave 745 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 2: us this charge as we left. She said, when the 746 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 2: temptation is to give up, the invitation is to show up. 747 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 2: Just keep showing up. Doctor Mark Mayfield, my friend, thank 748 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 2: you so much for joining us, say