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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking

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Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world

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Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that

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Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Everyone you call them make

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Speaker 1: a difference. In mental health. Columbia International University offers graduate

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Speaker 1: counseling degrees that combine professional excellence with Biblical truth from associates.

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Speaker 1: Through doctoral program, CiU prepares you to bring healing and

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Speaker 1: wholeness to others through a biblically based framework of compassion

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Speaker 1: and care. Whether it's their carep accredited Masters in Clinical

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Speaker 1: Counseling or their PhD in counsel or Education and supervision.

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Speaker 1: You'll learn from experienced faculty who integrate faith with real

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Speaker 1: world application to cultivate a Kingdom impact through disciples who counsel, teach,

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Speaker 1: and train. Whether you're starting your journey or advancing your career,

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Speaker 1: CiU's counseling programs equip you to serve others both professionally

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Speaker 1: and spiritually. You can visit CiU dot edu to learn

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Speaker 1: more about making a difference in mental health through christ

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Speaker 1: centered education. That's CiU dot edu. Hey, everybody, welcome to

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Speaker 1: this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and

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Speaker 1: I'm joined today by doctor Steve Stolereyer. He is a

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Speaker 1: professor of counselor education at Columbia International University, and we're

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Speaker 1: going to be talking a little bit of today about

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Speaker 1: counseling and the church, specifically what counseling looks like with

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Speaker 1: pastors and how congregations integrate counseling sort of into their

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Speaker 1: overarching ministries.

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Speaker 2: So welcome Steve to the podcast. Thanks for reading on

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Speaker 2: the show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, James, thank you for having me. I appreciate

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Speaker 3: the opportunity.

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Speaker 1: Give me, give me and I guess everybody listening a

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Speaker 1: little bit of your background. I know you've done a

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Speaker 1: lot of work obviously in counseling, but you've had a

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Speaker 1: lot of experience with the local church as well, so

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Speaker 1: I kind of filled us in on where you're at.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so about thirty two years ago, I came to

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Speaker 3: Christ and immediately fell a called to ministry, and in

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Speaker 3: that call I assumed and rightly so, that it was

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Speaker 3: kngre Uastel ministry to be a pastor. So I went

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Speaker 3: and trained for pastoral ministry. I went to Bible College,

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Speaker 3: did all those things that were necessary, and came back

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Speaker 3: to the city here in Cincinnati and was part of

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Speaker 3: a church planning team and then also became after about

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Speaker 3: five years of serving at that church in various capacities

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Speaker 3: on the pastoral staff, became a lead pastors and was

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Speaker 3: a lead pastor for about three years. When I knew

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Speaker 3: that the Lord is calling me back into the melial

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Speaker 3: health field, I say back into that. That's the work

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Speaker 3: I was doing before I came to Christ, and so

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Speaker 3: I got called back into that and pursued education master's

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Speaker 3: degree PhD eventually in the counselor and councilor education fields.

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Speaker 3: It's currently very involved with my local church, not on

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Speaker 3: staff as a pastor, but very much involved in leading

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Speaker 3: the men's ministry, helping with the team of people leading

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Speaker 3: a discipleship ministry within the church. I also get involved

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Speaker 3: with a more kind of regional Midwestern men's ministry, so

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Speaker 3: I'm on the leadership team there and try to help

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Speaker 3: guys who come to Christ are experiencing some healing to

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Speaker 3: get plugged into a church and to get disciple to

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Speaker 3: maybe have some lad counseling and try to get them

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Speaker 3: integrated into the church. So that's kind of in a

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Speaker 3: nutshell my experience. I love to teach and I love

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Speaker 3: this disciple people and especially men of the church.

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Speaker 1: How do you see I mean, this is something that

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Speaker 1: the more I've talked to people who are in counseling,

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Speaker 1: so I mean I knew some folks even at when

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Speaker 1: I was at Moody Bible Institute, they had a counseling program,

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Speaker 1: and I talk with the folks who were involved there,

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Speaker 1: and then even having a conversation with like Ben Matthew

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Speaker 1: just yesterday he was he was on the podcast. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I find is there's so

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Speaker 1: much feels like there's so much carryover between counseling and discipleship.

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Speaker 1: And obviously these are distinct fields, but I'm wondering if

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Speaker 1: you can kind of talk through how you see those

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Speaker 1: things sort of overlapping and where the counseling skills and

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Speaker 1: maybe even the orientation, uh you know some of the

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Speaker 1: tools and tricks that you've used in counseling, would you

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Speaker 1: know you see carrying over into discipleship.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what a great question then. And I know Ben

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Speaker 3: as you know. I know Ben as well, where colleagues

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Speaker 3: at Plumbia International University and a great guy. And he

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Speaker 3: and I and said Scott, who I believe you've had

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Speaker 3: on the podcast, have had conversations around what is the

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Speaker 3: what's what's the difference if there is any between discipleship

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Speaker 3: and counseling. And I say that if there is any,

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Speaker 3: because there may be an incredible amount of overlap. I do.

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Speaker 3: I do think that we in the church, and myself included,

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Speaker 3: have maybe unintentionally created this divide between discipleship and counseling

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Speaker 3: like it's one or the other, and I think it's both.

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Speaker 3: I think I think there's great overlap. I think the

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Speaker 3: way that we think about it, as I've talked to

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Speaker 3: Ben and Seth and hopefully not put any words in

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Speaker 3: the routh, but I think kind of where we come

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Speaker 3: to is we say, you know, really, counseling is about,

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Speaker 3: in a very simplistic way, it's about repairing hurts from

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Speaker 3: the past or current maybe addictions or or sexual trauma

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Speaker 3: or whatever is going on in a person's life, kind

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Speaker 3: of repairing some of that, helping heal emotional wounds it,

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Speaker 3: you know, helping people get connected into say a medical

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Speaker 3: professional of medication is needed whatnot. And discipleship really takes

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Speaker 3: a person from current status going forward. Okay, that's an

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Speaker 3: easy way to create a dichotomy in our head about

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Speaker 3: discipleship and counseling. But I'm not sure that it's not

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Speaker 3: a false dichotomy that really, you know, a lot of

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Speaker 3: what discipleship can be is to kind of reach back

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Speaker 3: and help men and women and kids and teenagers kind

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Speaker 3: of repairs some through God's grace and the power of

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Speaker 3: His word and prayer and all those things really heal

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Speaker 3: up their own emotional wounds for wonder reason or another.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's kind of hard to pinpoint a specific

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Speaker 3: way to do it because there's so many needs out there. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, so what we find toned discipleship, and I'll

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Speaker 3: talk about counseling in a minute. Really the most effective

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Speaker 3: counsel discipleship rather process is one to one disciple ship.

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Speaker 3: It's relationships, right, you know, one of the and I

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Speaker 3: don't know if if we want to get down this

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Speaker 3: rabbit hole or not. But you know, in a right now,

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Speaker 3: we're experiencing a development of AI in the counseling field,

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Speaker 3: and some people are creating there I don't even know

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Speaker 3: what they call it chat boxes or something like that.

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Speaker 3: Alert so it creates like a virtual gene spencer. And

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Speaker 3: now now you're my counselor. But it's AI doing it

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Speaker 3: right right, And what that misses, what that whole process misses,

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Speaker 3: is the real human touch that we need for healing,

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Speaker 3: you know, one on one, looking in your face, looking

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Speaker 3: at your eyes, knowing that I could disappoint you if

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Speaker 3: you're my counselor, let's say, or if I'm your discipleer

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Speaker 3: or vice versa. We can't disappoint each other. But AI,

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Speaker 3: you can't do that. The AI is always going to

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Speaker 3: affirm it. So so I'd say to kind of bring

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Speaker 3: this back around the one of the most powerful things

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Speaker 3: with discipleship is the one on one in relationship, and

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Speaker 3: that in and of itself, and a lot of psychological

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Speaker 3: research points us out that in and of itself brings

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Speaker 3: healing in disciples well, counseling is not frankly not significantly different.

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Speaker 3: It's a I'm kind of a key friend. Right, So

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Speaker 3: you're my client, right, you're my client. You come into

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Speaker 3: my office and we're talking, You're looking at my face,

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Speaker 3: you know, you see my body language, and vice versa,

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Speaker 3: and it's one to one, face to face, hard to heart.

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Speaker 3: A counselor is one who is going to show compassion

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Speaker 3: and empathy and all those things to a client that

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Speaker 3: a discipler should show, or a good discipler is going

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Speaker 3: to show to their person, to their disciple, leave if

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Speaker 3: you will. So there certainly is a big distinction here

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Speaker 3: that there is a two psychologists and I'm gonna I

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Speaker 3: can't recall their names. To psychologists in the nineteen sixties

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Speaker 3: kind of blew up the field, the psychology field by

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Speaker 3: concluding in research that really a compassionate friend, that a

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Speaker 3: person may have compassionate friend and relationship is just as

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Speaker 3: effective as a psychologist is for therapy reasons. So what

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Speaker 3: does that tell you? That tells you that the relationship,

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Speaker 3: in a discipleship relationship or a counseling relationship, that is

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Speaker 3: the key to helping people, you know, receive healing to

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Speaker 3: grow closer to Christ or whatever. That person particularly need,

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Speaker 3: particularly needs. I will say this kind as a caveat.

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Speaker 3: There are some people, probably twenty to thirty percent of

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Speaker 3: people whose mental health issues are severe enough that they

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Speaker 3: really do need you know, the situation may be incredibly

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Speaker 3: complicated if they really do need to come to see

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Speaker 3: a counselor who has some significant training in this area

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Speaker 3: and maybe you know, maybe get some medication that if appropriate.

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Speaker 3: But outside that twenty to thirty percent or people, most

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Speaker 3: people will will actually improve their mental well being simply

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Speaker 3: by being in a relationship. Yeah, and so the counseling,

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Speaker 3: in my view, the counseling discipleship continuum. Perhaps there's a

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Speaker 3: huge overlap there. And sometimes I think the church, and

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Speaker 3: I've been a pastor, I've been on both ends. I've

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Speaker 3: been a church, I've been a pastor, and I'm a

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Speaker 3: counselor and counselor educator. What we've done in the church sometimes,

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Speaker 3: and again I think inadvertently unintentionally, is we made this

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Speaker 3: division where there really shouldn't be oneted disciples and counseling

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Speaker 3: division of dichotomy which really doesn't need to be there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's helpful because what I think I

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Speaker 1: hear you saying is you know, there's this huge area

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Speaker 1: of overlap between the two, but then there isn't the

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Speaker 1: sort of outlying areas where you might say, yeah, sort

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Speaker 1: of an everyday discipler may not really be equipped to

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Speaker 1: deal with some of the pathologies that people walk in with,

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Speaker 1: and so if you're trying to disciple those out, yes,

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Speaker 1: there's always room for the grace of God, but there's

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Speaker 1: also a space for human expertise in these matters and

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Speaker 1: really intervening in ways that would remove some of the

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Speaker 1: hurdles that people might have that are otherwise just going

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Speaker 1: to stay there that would help them advance in their discipleship.

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Speaker 2: But for the by and large, it makes intuitive sense

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Speaker 2: to me.

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Speaker 1: Just everyone else I've talked to, you know, even just

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Speaker 1: some folks I've had on in the past, talk about

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Speaker 1: the increase in people who are coming to them for

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Speaker 1: help that don't really have those major problems that they're

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Speaker 1: dealing with.

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Speaker 2: How do I handle the stressors in my life.

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Speaker 1: I'm a little anxious, I'm feeling depressed, I'm struggling with aging.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these are things that all of us go through,

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Speaker 1: and you know, without a solid relationship to sit down

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Speaker 1: and talk with somebody, they can become pretty burdensome. And

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Speaker 1: so this guest was telling me, and I can't remember

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Speaker 1: exactly which conversation it was, but they were basically saying, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of a paid friend. I'm sitting and I'm

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Speaker 1: talking to this person. They're offloading some of this stuff

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Speaker 1: to me. But they don't have any particular problem pathology

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Speaker 1: that you would pinpoint and say you need X, Y

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Speaker 1: or Z. They really just need to process some things.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and that's been my experience. I would say, well,

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Speaker 3: currently I have a small private practice. I see about

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Speaker 3: ten people a week or so because most of my

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Speaker 3: focus is at the university. But historically I had a

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Speaker 3: pretty large practice that I was seeing thirty to thirty

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Speaker 3: five people a week or so. In a mystery of

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Speaker 3: the practice, et cetera, et cetera, and I would say,

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Speaker 3: I try to askimate this one time I'm and I

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Speaker 3: think I came up with with the number of about

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Speaker 3: seventy five of my case load is what I would

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Speaker 3: call the worried. Well, these are people who don't have

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Speaker 3: a diagnosable condition, or they do. They have something pretty mild.

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Speaker 3: We might in the Council of the world, we call

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Speaker 3: it an adjustment disorder. Okay, Well, one of my former

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Speaker 3: clients's father with whom he was close passed away. So

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Speaker 3: he's experiencing grief. Hey, that's expected. So he could be diagnosed,

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Speaker 3: and I did diagnose them with an adjustment disorder, and

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Speaker 3: then we could build insurance and then we have a

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Speaker 3: treatment plan. And he did meet that criteria. But he

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Speaker 3: might be what is considered a worried well. Somebody who's

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Speaker 3: in the worried well category. That would probably take up

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Speaker 3: two thirds of three quarters of most therapist caseloads. And

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Speaker 3: so what what a great idea to be able to

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Speaker 3: see in two churches and pastors, could we include within

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Speaker 3: your discipleship program, in small group ministry, whatever you have

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Speaker 3: set up in your church, could we train train listeners

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Speaker 3: people who can disciple and to listen and discipleship, by

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Speaker 3: the way, it's much more than just intellectual, and that's

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Speaker 3: certainly part of it. Is, Hey, let me teach you

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Speaker 3: about the New Testament. The book romans what Christ has

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Speaker 3: done for you, but it's also hey, let's walk together

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Speaker 3: on this journey where you might your father passed away.

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Speaker 3: I know what that's like. My father's passed away. Can

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Speaker 3: we just walk this journey together and just have people

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Speaker 3: trained to listen if that were to happen. And I

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Speaker 3: think and there's a movement for that to happen to

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Speaker 3: to themselves out of Regent University and other people are

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Speaker 3: really working on creating a helping churches create a culture

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Speaker 3: in which the church can minister to the mental people

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Speaker 3: with mental health issues and most health issues. So that's

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Speaker 3: kind of happening. As church has become more and more

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Speaker 3: successful at that, then that opens up my caseload if

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Speaker 3: I was carrying a full caseload, opens up my caseload

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Speaker 3: now for the complicated cases. Right so, right right now,

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Speaker 3: if you are a pastor James and I'm have a

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Speaker 3: full caseload, and you'd say, Hay, Steve, I have so

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Speaker 3: and so who's sexual abuse survivor and they just got

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Speaker 3: out of a domestic violent situation. Can you see her

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Speaker 3: for him? I would say sure in about three months,

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Speaker 3: because my caseload is so full, and every counselor I

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Speaker 3: know is as full as they want to be, like

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Speaker 3: they can't take anybody else. And what a wonderful thing

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Speaker 3: for the church to really be able to develop some

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Speaker 3: kind of counseling ministry counseling slash and deciples ministry so

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Speaker 3: that they the church can really be what it's intended

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Speaker 3: to be, which I think is a, among other things,

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Speaker 3: a hospital and sanctuary for people to bring healing and

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Speaker 3: draw closer to Christ. And the more complicated severe case

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Speaker 3: has come to people who are highly dreamed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

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Speaker 1: It kind of leads me into another question I wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk with you about. You know, I've read some

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Speaker 1: of the State of the Pastor's Report, and you know,

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Speaker 1: what are pastors concerned with? How does And then there's

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Speaker 1: been some theological reflection around loneliness and pastoral ministry, the

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Speaker 1: lack of friendship for lead pastors particularly, And I've kind

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Speaker 1: of experienced that in I grew up in more rural churches,

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Speaker 1: and so, you know, even though the pastor is sort

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Speaker 1: of part of the community, he's the one that everybody

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Speaker 1: leans on, there isn't a lot of necessarily reciprocation all

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Speaker 1: the time of hey, he's got needs too, who's.

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Speaker 2: Of meeting them? He asked.

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Speaker 1: Almost at least some of the people that I dealt with,

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Speaker 1: it felt like they had the sense that they needed

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Speaker 1: to sort of stand apart right and be a pillar

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Speaker 1: as opposed to being down in the mess all the time.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm wondering, you know, when you think about

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Speaker 1: the sort of worried well, where would you put pastors

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Speaker 1: in this mix?

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Speaker 2: Our pastor is a big part of the worried well.

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Speaker 1: And they're just not getting the help that they need

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Speaker 1: because they're so busy trying to sort of shepherd the

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Speaker 1: flock that they never take time to take care of themselves.

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Speaker 2: Like, what's that dynamic from their perspective?

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Speaker 3: I would say the answer is yes with an asterix

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Speaker 3: and exclamation points, and you know, yes, yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 3: they're part of the worried well. They're feeling lonely. What's

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Speaker 3: interesting is I just this morning the timing of this conversation.

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Speaker 3: This morning, I just finished reading a dissertation, or at

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Speaker 3: least review of the literature for one of more students

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Speaker 3: who's who is doing a dissertation around the effect of

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Speaker 3: well in summary mental health with pastor's wife. She's a

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Speaker 3: pastor's wife herself, and so I just reading through all

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Speaker 3: the review of the literature, and as she commented and

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Speaker 3: talking about the pastors themselves feeling lonely, feeling burned out, discouraged,

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Speaker 3: having no real friends, meaning meaning, hey, I can disclose,

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Speaker 3: I can just be open with you as possible if

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Speaker 3: I'm struggling with lust issues. I mean, what pastor is

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Speaker 3: going to go to their congregation and say, oh, man,

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Speaker 3: there's some really attractive women in my church and I'm

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Speaker 3: lusting after them. Of course they're not going to do that.

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Speaker 3: And my experience as a pastor and knowing a lot

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Speaker 3: of pastors and loving a lot of pastors, knowing them

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Speaker 3: well still to this day I'm ha been in pastoral

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Speaker 3: ministry for twenty years. They will tell me privately, I

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Speaker 3: would never go to my denomination to tell them, hey,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm dealing with burnout or I'm depressed, or

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Speaker 3: my my relations my marriage is really rocky at this point,

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Speaker 3: my kids are acting the full or whatever may be

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Speaker 3: going on. And so the as a consequence, pastors really

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Speaker 3: do really are lonely. They are really lonely, They're hurt.

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Speaker 3: They they'll know who to go to. Most counselors haven't

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Speaker 3: been pastors. I play a unique role that I have been.

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Speaker 3: And Ben Matthew uh And And says Scott had been

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Speaker 3: in elder boards and things of that nature. So they

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Speaker 3: have some you know, the three of us, and there's

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Speaker 3: others to play a pretty unique role in that we've

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Speaker 3: had our feet in both worlds. Yeah, but most pastors

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Speaker 3: won't go to counselors because they don't understand what the

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Speaker 3: counselor doesn't have an understanding and what does be a pastor.

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Speaker 3: A lot of pastors will tell me, and this, this

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Speaker 3: is a phrase that you've heard before. I'm sure that

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Speaker 3: they feel like they live in a fishbowl. They're always

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Speaker 3: there's all. They were always expected to be available. Either

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Speaker 3: kids misbehave, then it's catastrophic, you know. And there I

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Speaker 3: had an instant when I was a lead pastor. My

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Speaker 3: oldest daughter was about three or four years old, and

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Speaker 3: we had we had an outreach to the community and

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Speaker 3: then it basically involved a meal, big meal. We had

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Speaker 3: about one hundred people from the community in this church,

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Speaker 3: about fifty so we had about hundred people from the

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Speaker 3: community come in that and and I was loving it.

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Speaker 3: I'll I just it was amazing to have all these

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Speaker 3: people here and building relationships. My kid, my oldest was

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Speaker 3: three or so, she was was walking around and we

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Speaker 3: had an infant son, and I wasn't really paying attention

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Speaker 3: to my daughter. And then she she walked outside the

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Speaker 3: building like she had opened the door and walked out,

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Speaker 3: and I went and looked and saw those shoes going out.

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Speaker 3: And before I could get to her, when the board

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Speaker 3: members went out and got her and like ripped her

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Speaker 3: in the building and pointed at her and said, if

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Speaker 3: you ever do this again, I'm going to spank you.

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Speaker 3: I said, no, you're not. You're not touching my daughter, right.

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Speaker 3: But but but that's the the pastors a lot, and

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Speaker 3: and who do I go to unburden myself too at

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Speaker 3: that point? You know? So so we a lot of pastors,

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Speaker 3: in my experience with work with pastors as a counselor,

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Speaker 3: a lot of pastors are angry because they don't have

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Speaker 3: relationships with people primarily or when and if they had,

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Speaker 3: they'd gotten hurt by these people. There are exceptions, of course,

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Speaker 3: there are people who pastors who are doing really well,

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Speaker 3: they have good friendships. But a lot of pastors I

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Speaker 3: find really do fall in the word well category because

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Speaker 3: of these issues. But also also know a lot of

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Speaker 3: pastors who really meet the diagnosis, the diagnostic criteria for

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Speaker 3: post tramatic stress disorder, bring generalized anxiety disorder for depression,

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Speaker 3: you know, so they maybe have more complicated presentations if

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Speaker 3: you will and need to come see accounsetor so. So

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Speaker 3: of course, the consequence of this, Jeames, I don't say

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Speaker 3: this and not the consequence of this is that unhealthy

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Speaker 3: pastors don't lead church as well. Yeah you can't. We're limited.

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Speaker 3: That's not knock on pastors. And there's just some limitations

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Speaker 3: to an unhealthy pastor.

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Speaker 1: No, I mean the blocking, the blocking and tackling, the

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Speaker 1: basic blocking and tackling could probably get done right. You know,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna deliver your sermon every Sunday, You're gonna you know,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna make their appearances where you need to. But

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Speaker 1: there's there's definitely a longevity problem, yes, and there.

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Speaker 3: Is a.

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Speaker 2: You could basically say, just a basic heart problem.

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Speaker 1: Right without that connection within a congregation, and I would

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Speaker 1: I would say it's the same with a lot of

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Speaker 1: different leadership as it. Right, when you lose those relationships,

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Speaker 1: you yourself aren't sort of feeling energized by what you're doing,

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Speaker 1: you know, those kind of things when you're just sort

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Speaker 1: of feel like you're behind the eight ball all the time.

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Speaker 1: You're never in a great place to be thinking forward

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Speaker 1: and transformatively. You're almost always in sort of this reactive

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Speaker 1: defensive mode, which just doesn't do good things for creative

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Speaker 1: thought or critical thinking or compassion or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: You know, So it makes intuitive sense. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: kind of dig in. You said something about, you know,

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Speaker 1: pastors having this PTSD and depression and those kind of things.

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Speaker 1: Do you find that how do you link those two?

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Speaker 1: So you've got the worried well who are just sort

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Speaker 1: of like under the pressure, maybe even the normal pressures

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Speaker 1: of ministry and this is going to be maybe something

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Speaker 1: that's short term for them. They need a little something

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Speaker 1: to get by and they're going to be better and it's.

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Speaker 2: Okay, But are there some.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you when you think about that PTSD,

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Speaker 1: the depression, all those kind of things, is that an

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Speaker 1: evolution from the worried well into that? So in other words,

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Speaker 1: the context of the ministry is sort of pressuring so

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Speaker 1: much that you're just holding on to hurts, you're holding

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Speaker 1: on to, you know, whatever trauma you may have experienced,

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Speaker 1: and they're probably you know, I can envision some ministries

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Speaker 1: where there is a lot of trauma, not like the

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Speaker 1: sort of he was mean to me and now I'm

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Speaker 1: frustrated kind of trauma. But you deal with death and

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Speaker 1: life issues. An awful lot of ministry like this is trauma.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And at the risk of being provocative, let

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Speaker 3: me say this, Yeah, certainly there's this would be I

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Speaker 3: would have to say the minority of pastors. But I

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Speaker 3: know pastors personally that I've been encouraged to wear bulletproof

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Speaker 3: vests when they leave their house and come to church,

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Speaker 3: and the wiser kids are, you know, threatened. So certainly

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Speaker 3: that's not true of all pastors. And but there's enough

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Speaker 3: of that that's happening to where that that in and

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Speaker 3: of itself could be a triggering event for a PTSD diagnosis,

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Speaker 3: that my life is threatened, life of my wife, my

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Speaker 3: children are threatened, That in and of itself could be

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Speaker 3: a triggering event towards PTSD. The vast majority of it

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Speaker 3: of what what I see in pastors, and I again

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Speaker 3: know just knowing pastors and counseling quite a few of them,

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Speaker 3: is it's it's very much a trauma response. When you're

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Speaker 3: dealing with life and death issues all the time, or

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Speaker 3: you post something online that seems pretty innocuous. You know,

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Speaker 3: it was pray for this thing that this big cultural

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Speaker 3: event that happened over here. And then you get you

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Speaker 3: get people from the culture or from the community rather

429
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Speaker 3: or within the church saying you know, you are and

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Speaker 3: fill in the blank, you are this, you're that, and

431
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 3: there's there's very little relief in some cases for pastors.

432
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 3: So it's not a common then for pastors just kind

433
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 3: of like reel it in and say, I'm not gonna

434
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 3: say anything potentially controversial. So I'm just i mean understandably,

435
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 3: so if you're getting beat up by Mike, type in

436
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 3: every round at some point and say, okay, I'm stepping

437
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 3: out of the ring. I'm just gonna I'm not gonna

438
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 3: do this anymore. So, so people do experience. Pastors certainly

439
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 3: experience like a trauma response frequently or depression, our anxiety,

440
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 3: and it can to go to your question, does it

441
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 3: evolve from the worried, Well, it certainly can. Of course,

442
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 3: as we find this with counselors as we train them

443
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 3: at Colembian International University and certainly it's other universities are

444
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 3: training master's level clinical counselors. That the reason why some

445
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 3: people come into counseling and the reason why some people

446
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 3: come to pastoral ministri is because they themselves have experienced

447
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 3: mental health issues or trauma or difficulty and they have found,

448
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 3: in the case of counseling, maybe they've been through a

449
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 3: counselor themselves. I've seen a counselor themselves and have overcome.

450
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 3: I've worked through whatever the issue might be. In they sense, wow,

451
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 3: this is amazing. I'm going to be I want to

452
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 3: do this for other people, so I'm going to be

453
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 3: a counselor. And I also think that's probably true for pastors.

454
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 3: People who go into the pastoral ministry is they've experienced

455
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 3: the cred of life, the pain, the suffering of life,

456
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,719
Speaker 3: and a pastor, a church ministry really impacted them. So

457
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 3: then they say, well, I think God's called me into that,

458
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 3: and they go training become a good minister. But then

459
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 3: they carry into pastoral ministry a lot of those past

460
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 3: traumas pastor depression, anxiety and whatnot, which, by the way,

461
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 3: can be very beneficial. When my father died in twenty twelve,

462
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 3: I was counseling a guy whose father or his mother

463
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, was dying of cancer and died. She died

464
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 3: a couple of months after my father did, and I

465
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 3: was close with my dad, he was close with his mom.

466
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 3: So just the fact that I had that experience gave

467
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 3: me a level of understanding that I wouldn't have had

468
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 3: prior to that. Some people come to counseling and they're

469
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 3: great counselors because they they not only know it in

470
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 3: their head, but they know it in their parts, if

471
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 3: you will, and say what the pastoral pastors and so

472
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 3: then you combine all this stuff together. Maybe they come

473
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 3: in with some hurts and trauma anyway in the pastoral

474
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 3: ministry and had the experience of living in a fish bowl,

475
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 3: having your life threatened, or having just the pressure of

476
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 3: day to day pastoral ministry kindra useul ministry. And then

477
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 3: it's probably not a surprise then that they that they

478
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 3: might experience meal health issues and many of the function

479
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 3: Like you said, hey, maybe they can just block and tackle. Yeah,

480
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 3: they can do their stuff, but what about Monday through

481
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 3: Friday where they're struggling and so so I do see

482
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 3: I do my experience as a pastor myself who probably

483
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 3: really struggled to burn out and some level of mild

484
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 3: depression and anxiety and insecurity. Really, I go back to

485
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 3: the friend issue. I really didn't have any real deep

486
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 3: friends who understood. The good friends I had were not

487
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 3: in pastoral ministry, so I would they didn't understand it,

488
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 3: and the other pastors wouldn't talk about it.

489
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: Let me ask, Because i just became an elder at

490
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: my church, so I've known the pastor there for maybe

491
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: five years ish, and so I've been thinking about, you know,

492
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: aside from just some of the administrative skills that I

493
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: can bring and hopefully plug in and help the church,

494
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: how do you how do I, as an elder sort

495
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: of make sure the pastor is okay? Like That's one

496
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: of those kind of questions that I've been sort of

497
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: noodling about in my mind and so wondering if you

498
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: have any advice, Like, elder to pastor. I've not been

499
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: in pastoral ministry, but I've been in ministry circles my

500
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: entire career, Christian nonprofits and then academic you know, Christian academia.

501
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: I've worked in churches, been you know, volunteered those kind

502
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: of things. So it's not like I'm unaware of some

503
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: of these dynamics, right, But this is a different sort

504
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: of relationship than I've ever had with anybody, and it

505
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think there's going to be any

506
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 1: sort of weird relational problem.

507
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: I don't sense there will be.

508
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,719
Speaker 1: But it is different being the guy in the congregation

509
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: who the pastor can call and get a cup of

510
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: coffee with and trust that, you know, anything that's said

511
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: at the table is going to stay at the table, right,

512
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: versus being an elder And so just wondering if you

513
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: have any advice for that particular situation. I'll pick your

514
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: brain as a free counseling session here.

515
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll just give me your credit card number. Yeah,

516
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 3: I'll give So let me ask you questions for clarity's sake.

517
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 3: So I know there's different exclusiologies. So is the elder board?

518
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 3: Does the pastor is report? Can he be fired by

519
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: the elder board? Is there that power dynamic?

520
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: There is? There is?

521
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 3: Uh?

522
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: And so yeah, the elder board can dismiss the pastor.

523
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: The elder board is you know, oversight of the budget

524
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: and generally the direction and mission of the church, those

525
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: kind of things. It's certainly not any deeper than that.

526
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: In the organization. You know, we don't we don't deal

527
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: with other staff or anything like that. And the pastor

528
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: is on the elder board as well, so it is

529
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: much more of a I might call it a team.

530
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 2: Oriented approach, right where we're really there.

531
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: To make sure that the pastor has the supporting needs,

532
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: the ministry is going in the right direction it's supposed

533
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: to be going, and that the the administration of the

534
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: church via the budget is appropriate.

535
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So the question is how can you help

536
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 3: the pastor, your pastor in the role that you're playing. Yeah,

537
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 3: I think it comes down to just have a relationship

538
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 3: with them, as easy as that sounds, having a having

539
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 3: a non professional relationship with them, as easy as that's.

540
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 3: As simplistic as that sounds. It's also true that that

541
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 3: allow and making it clear with a pastor. And I'll

542
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 3: say this, I'll tell the story of my pastor making

543
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 3: it clear of the pastor that a when when you

544
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: want to have a cup of coffee, I'm still that guy,

545
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 3: and I'm going to separate out. You know, my role

546
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 3: is the elder and we're on the elder team with

547
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 3: I just care about you as an individual as a person.

548
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 3: So let's just talk. And so my pastor so our

549
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 3: church government may be slightly different. The pastors the chair

550
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 3: of the board we call it, and the board members

551
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 3: are elected, and so it's a little bit of a

552
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 3: team approach. But he's the guy. He really is the guy,

553
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 3: and so there's that power dynamic. The board can't hire

554
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 3: and fire the pastor. And so my pastor has been

555
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 3: very upfront with the congregation, thankfully, about his own dealings

556
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 3: with anxiety and depression and physical health issues. He's very open,

557
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 3: very appropriately open to the congregation. And I do, as

558
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 3: an asside, I do tell him all the time that

559
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 3: his name is Justin. I'll say, Justin, you've done more

560
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 3: for the mental health of your congregation by being open

561
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 3: about it than anybody else could ever do. If you'd

562
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 3: spend thirty seconds saying, yeah, I'm seeing a counselor for anxiety,

563
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 3: I'm just making that up. He hasn't said that, uh,

564
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 3: that that does more for our congregation than anything else. So,

565
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 3: so what what Justin talks about. He has very close

566
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,879
Speaker 3: relationships with his board. I'm not on the board, he's

567
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 3: very close relationships with the board and with me and

568
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 3: several other people where they will just go out and

569
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 3: not talk about church ministry. He'll talk about family, you know,

570
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 3: his family, he's been on the mission field, et cetera.

571
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 3: You just talk about life. The Bengals. I'm in Cincinnati,

572
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 3: so the Cincinnati Bengals and they're struggling right now. Or Chicago,

573
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 3: Europe and in the Chicago area right.

574
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: I'm near Saint Louis and no football, but okay, we

575
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: kind of all right. The Bears, you know, the Titans

576
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: somewhere in that range.

577
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so the Bengals is lost of the Bears.

578
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 3: Just so you know, you just talk about life and

579
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 3: stuff else God gets the mind going. So I think

580
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 3: that's the biggest thing is relationships without strings attached. Yeah,

581
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 3: and yeah, that takes time to build up too. I

582
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 3: mean I think, and I was this pastor too, that

583
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 3: you get cautious. You get hurt so much by people

584
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 3: that you poured your life into that you remain cautious

585
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 3: about anybody that says, hey, I just want to be

586
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 3: your friend. They've heard that before. Your pastor probably has

587
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 3: heard that before fifty times, and forty eight of those

588
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 3: times the person has hurt them somehow. And so just

589
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 3: know it takes time to say, hey, I'm just gonna

590
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 3: I just want to be your friend. What can I

591
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 3: do for you? Can I take you to the ballgame?

592
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 3: Or can we just hang out no strings attached? And

593
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 3: you know, one of the things that we do from

594
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 3: the past or year, i'd lead the men's ministry here

595
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 3: and so I'm discipling men and we have a twenty

596
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 3: five guys or so that come on every Wednesday night

597
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 3: and we do that. We do our disciplisal. Thing we

598
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 3: commit and that we commit to. We have a let

599
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 3: me back up a little bit with some contexts that

600
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 3: in our men's ministry, we we believe that the men

601
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 3: should be stepping up and not usurping the women's servant

602
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 3: roles and leadership roles necessarily, but men generally don't step

603
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 3: up into any leadership role in the church. I don't

604
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 3: mean like position. I mean I'm going to do this

605
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 3: thing because the church needs it. So so we decided

606
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 3: that that the men of the church needed to pray

607
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 3: for our pastor. That sounds really good, right, and we

608
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 3: all should do that. Except we said to justin we're

609
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 3: going to we would like to come to your office,

610
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,800
Speaker 3: you know, thirty five minutes before service starts, come in

611
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 3: your office, lay hands on and you pray for you.

612
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 3: We're in. We're not getting any pastoral council. We come in,

613
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 3: we pray for you, then we leave. We're there, five minutes,

614
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,720
Speaker 3: we're gone. I never had that as a pastor. Nobody

615
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 3: ever did that. And so I recognize the importance of

616
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 3: not having that. And he recognized the importance of having that.

617
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 3: He's in circle by group, and so that that's just

618
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 3: I say that to say, it's relationships. My pastor knows

619
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 3: he can count on twenty five men who will keep

620
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 3: his hurts secret. Yeah, you know, on or them that way,

621
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 3: and that's a friendship and that's what most pastors need.

622
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 2: That's great.

623
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: Well, we got we got about ten minutes left, and

624
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: I kind of wanted to pick your brain a little

625
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: bit on your work with Men's Ministry.

626
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 2: So you know, there's a lot going on right now.

627
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 2: Scott Gallaway just put out a book.

628
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 1: On you know, men and you know the difficulties young

629
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: men are having nowadays. I don't really you're familiar with that,

630
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: but interesting stuff, and it seems like it's resonating. Like

631
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: this has been around for the last at least five years.

632
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: I've been kind of following it and so my my

633
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 1: concern just so you can kind of understand my perspective

634
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: on it and then you can chime in one way

635
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: or the other. A lot of the things that I

636
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: see happening within Christianity to talk about Christian manhood feel

637
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: more like machiesmo to me than actual manhood. And what

638
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: I mean by that is that what it is to

639
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: be a male disciple of Jesus tends to get lost

640
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: and sort of this cultural matrix of this is what

641
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: it looks like to be manly.

642
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:31,399
Speaker 2: Right.

643
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 1: A lot of times I'll talk about it like if

644
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 1: I can bench more than you, I'm manlier than you are.

645
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: And I just think, like, you know, when I say

646
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 1: it like that, people think it's ludicrous. But so many

647
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: times if you just analyze what's actually being said to

648
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: young men, this is kind of what's being said to

649
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: young men. It's like there's an Instagram reel that I

650
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 1: see occasionally. It says, hey, some of you need to

651
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: hear this. If you don't have big muscles, you're not

652
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: worth anything, you know, like, and it goes it's like

653
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: meant to be sarcastic, but I think there's some truth

654
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,839
Speaker 1: to it. So that's kind of how I feel like

655
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 1: a lot of times when we're dealing with young men,

656
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: what we're trying to do is get them to be,

657
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: you know, sort of a Christianized version of an Andrew

658
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: Tate or something like that, where it's it's very much bravado,

659
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 1: it's very much you know, boldness, but it isn't as

660
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: nested in discipleship as it needs to be. So that's

661
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: from my perspective, and I'm wondering if you'd have correctives

662
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,879
Speaker 1: to that, whether you resonate with it, and what your

663
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: experience has been actually dealing with young men in your

664
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: discipleship too.

665
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question. It's a big thing that

666
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 3: we deal with in the within the men's ministry, from

667
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 3: guys who are twenty five to guys who are seventy

668
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 3: five in the men's mistry and working together with this

669
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 3: white age range and the men at the different end

670
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 3: of the different end ends of the spectrum don't, at

671
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,280
Speaker 3: least the men I interact with don't think very differently.

672
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 3: You know. I think if we think of the like

673
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 3: the normal curve, I think we have two extremes. I

674
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 3: think we have the the the enterteats of the world.

675
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 3: What I would call and I really don't like the

676
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 3: phrase from a couple of years ago, toxic masculinity, right,

677
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 3: But if there is anybody that's toxically mascul it might

678
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 3: be somebody like the ers in the world, you know

679
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 3: where where you know the macheese most stuff like I

680
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 3: got to just dominate. And then the other end of

681
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 3: the spectrum is to be a man is to be

682
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 3: as be weak, need a man, be pambyan's fine lists,

683
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 3: and just not stir any trouble at all. And I

684
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 3: think when we when we look at our model, at

685
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 3: who's Jesus Christ, who's a man? Of course, Jesus was

686
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 3: incredibly kind and compassionate, loving obviously, I mean that's the gospel.

687
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 3: But he was as strong and a man's fan like

688
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 3: there's a there is a what I mean, a man's

689
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 3: ban I'll describe what that means, not the toxic masculinity

690
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 3: thing there's and I'm I'm forgetting where this is located

691
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 3: at in scripture. But Jesus as a teaching and the

692
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 3: religious jew religious Jews don't like it, so they go

693
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 3: to throw them off a cliff. And what does Jesus do.

694
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 3: He walks right through the crowd, and I don't think

695
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 3: it was a mystical you know, like they roll on

696
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 3: by some spiritual mystical event. I think Jesus was just

697
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 3: a man and it's like, no, you're not gonna mess

698
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 3: with me, right, So so I think that I think

699
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 3: in the middle of this normal curve, there's this place

700
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 3: where men are called to be kind and compassionate and loving.

701
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 3: But you can do that fiercely, and it seems like

702
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 3: a like it's a paradox almost that how could he

703
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,399
Speaker 3: be fiercely kind? That means I'm going to I'm going

704
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 3: to give everything I got to whatever God's called me into.

705
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 3: I have a one of the guys in thee in

706
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 3: the men's group men's Ministry that I lead, he's an engineer,

707
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,280
Speaker 3: and so he's very much in his head loves Christ

708
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 3: and he tears up like that, you know he was.

709
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 3: He was really burdened when he first came to the

710
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 3: Men's Ministry to say, well, I'm not a man's man

711
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 3: because I cry easily. And what was really great is

712
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 3: one of the guys that would be classified as come

713
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 3: a man's man said no, no, no, no, that's that's how

714
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 3: you're wired. I go after that with all you got,

715
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 3: you know, whatever it is. Maybe it's maybe it is

716
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 3: working out and being a football player, maybe it's being

717
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 3: an engineer where you're maybe more introverted. Whatever. So so

718
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 3: what I what I think of like in men's ministry,

719
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 3: men need to and and you're welcome to disagree. I

720
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 3: think what what men need and what I'm seeing of

721
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 3: the men in my men ministry need is somebody give

722
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 3: them permission to go hard after whatever God's called you into.

723
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,959
Speaker 3: Ye and whatever that looks like. I mean, I'm old

724
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 3: and gray. It got a gray beard. You know, I'm tall,

725
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 3: got knee issues, back issues. It's like, so I have

726
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 3: some physical limitations from playing I got all that from

727
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 3: playing sports. But I have some physical limitations. So but

728
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean I'm not a man because I go

729
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 3: hard after the things that I believe strongly in and

730
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 3: and I think, I think what our culture has done largely,

731
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 3: and what the Church has done largely is e masculate

732
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 3: men like men. You can't be who you are, you

733
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 3: have to be this picture of this quiet miss mister Rogers,

734
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: God blessed Fred Rogers, like the mister Rogers caricature. And

735
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 3: I don't think that's what most men want. I don't

736
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 3: think that's what the picture of Jesus that we see.

737
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 3: We see somebody who is strong, compassionate, driven to achieve

738
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 3: his mission and does it in a way that people

739
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 3: were attracted to him. People all sorts were attracted to him,

740
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:22,439
Speaker 3: not just like the machiesmo guys. Yeah, so I think

741
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 3: that's maybe more from my perspective, that's more the middle road.

742
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's unful, And I do tend to agree. I mean,

743
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: I think individually we have a particular arc that God

744
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: has given us, and it's you know, liking to go

745
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: to the gym or having tattoos doesn't make me more

746
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: masculine than anybody else. It makes me what God made me.

747
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 1: And and I think that, you know, I always look

748
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: at it. I think it's kind of comical. I'll read

749
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,240
Speaker 1: some I read different stuff on you know, from folks

750
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: who are dealing with masculinity, and you you know, some

751
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: of it.

752
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 2: I hear a lot.

753
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: About camping and being out in the wilderness and shooting things, and.

754
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 2: I hate that stuff.

755
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: Give me a holiday in and you know, you know,

756
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: I'll take subway, you know what I mean, as long

757
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: as I don't have to kill it in neat it myself.

758
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 3: I'm good, right, I'm with your brother.

759
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: And so you know, there's just some of those like

760
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: sort of stereotypical things, and I'm like, we're applying this

761
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: into these discourses on masculinity, and I can't help but

762
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: think it's doing a disservice to people who might go, well,

763
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: that's not me.

764
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 2: Just like this gentleman you're.

765
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: Talking about, I cry, you know, I cry easily, and

766
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: that's not masculine. It's like, well, but that's you, and

767
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: you're a man, and so you know, it doesn't have

768
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: to be masculine.

769
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:43,240
Speaker 2: I think that's part of the problem.

770
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 1: It's like, you're a man, you do that, you own it, right,

771
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: be who Christ is calling you to be.

772
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: That's cool, that's great.

773
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: But I think sometimes we're just applying some of these

774
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: other things on top of that that it don't make

775
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 1: a lot of sense. It sort of skew our perception

776
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: of it.

777
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do too, And I think as I counsel men,

778
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 3: you know, most of my clinical case lead right now

779
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 3: are men or pastors. Male pastors do men's ministry. I'm

780
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 3: part of this more regional men's ministry. And probably James.

781
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 3: The most consistent message that the men give me is

782
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 3: that they feel like they're not enough, they're not good enough,

783
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 3: or you feeling like they're not something enough. Maybe this

784
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 3: is generally enough. And so when when when I get

785
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 3: in with them and say, well, okay, the word enough

786
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 3: kind of implies that there's a standard that you're measuring

787
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 3: yourself against. Right, what is that standard? And most people,

788
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 3: and I recognize this my own life, going back to

789
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 3: probably when I was training about forty and I began

790
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:51,959
Speaker 3: to look at maybe a midlife crisis. Maybe it began

791
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 3: to look at what am I measuring myself against? And

792
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 3: most men they answer the same way I did. I

793
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 3: have no idea, yeah, so and some men do to know,

794
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 3: and I have an idea like I'm not a good

795
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 3: enough basketball player compared to whom James Lebron James, right,

796
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 3: you're right, you're not, so you're right. Yeah, that's it's

797
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 3: more realistic. I mean, I'm fifty fifty eight knee and

798
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 3: back issues. Okay, let's make this realistic. And but most men,

799
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 3: and myself included, it's like I don't even know what

800
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 3: I'm measuring myself against. So consequently, how do I even

801
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 3: know if I'm enough? Right, So, so with men's discipleship,

802
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 3: counseling discipleship, I really try to help men to identify,

803
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 3: you know, the standard being Christ. Yeah, he's almost an

804
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 3: unrealistic standard in the sense that he was perfect, but

805
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 3: he is the model, okay, Right? And how are you

806
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 3: wired James versus Steve versus you know, Billy or Sammy

807
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 3: or whoever, how are you wired? What was I called

808
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 3: you into? Then let's establish a more reasonable standard for

809
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 3: yourself to measure yourself against.

810
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 2: When I think that's beautiful because.

811
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: If you're familiar with an Asia arts work on the

812
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 1: metic desire and those kind of things, right, He basically

813
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 1: talks about, we always have a model that we want

814
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: to imitate, and when we pick up let's say we

815
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 1: pick a human model, we almost always end up in

816
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 1: competition with that human model, because ultimately our desires are

817
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: shaped toward the things that that model's desires are shaped toward,

818
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 1: and we end up competing for the same things. We

819
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 1: want to not just be that model, we want to

820
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: overtake that model to become that model.

821
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 2: And then he argues that this doesn't happen with Christ.

822
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 1: And part of the reason it doesn't happen with Christ

823
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:56,399
Speaker 1: is because the mechanism for becoming like Christ involves self sacrifice,

824
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 1: It involves humility, it involves you know, it involves these

825
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 1: things of like sort of letting yourself go and just

826
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: be as opposed to trying to leverage into something. You know,

827
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: it's not a competition to become more christ Like. As

828
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: soon as you're making into a competition, you're kind of

829
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: doing it wrong, right, you know. And so just I

830
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:21,359
Speaker 1: think it's really beautiful when we put Christ as the

831
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 1: model in the plumb line, because then that is that

832
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 1: gives us then different mechanisms to pursue that model than

833
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: we would normally have and we choose any other model.

834
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really good. I like that a lot. I

835
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:41,720
Speaker 3: hadn't thought about it in that way, but that's true.

836
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 3: I think I think men as men again. I think

837
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 3: some men, and I would probably say myself included when

838
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 3: I was younger, expected to be not be Christ in

839
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 3: the idolatrous kind of way, but just to have everything

840
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 3: figured out. Yeah, then you find in life. I find

841
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 3: in my life. Then maybe James, you have to perhaps

842
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 3: maybe most men have, most people have the closer you

843
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,439
Speaker 3: get to Christ, the more you see yourself right as

844
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 3: you really are. Even I think I'm farther away from

845
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 3: Christ than I was when I came to Christ, which

846
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:19,879
Speaker 3: of course I don't think is true. But you start

847
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,399
Speaker 3: to see yourself for who you really are. And having

848
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 3: come to Christ at a later age, my later twenties,

849
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 3: I remember what that was like to live without God

850
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 3: and then then be saved a lot of things for

851
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 3: changing me and then start really to explore my inner

852
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:39,879
Speaker 3: world to say, man, I have a long way to go,

853
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 3: and thank God for his grace and is forgiveness of mercy.

854
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: Well, Steve, I've kept you over time. I think that's

855
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 1: actually a really good place to end on God's grace.

856
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,439
Speaker 2: And his mercy. And so I really appreciate you being

857
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 2: on the podcast.

858
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Speaker 1: Thanks for all the work you're doing and counseling and

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Speaker 1: men's ministry and pastoral ministry. It's really fantastic to talk

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00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: with you and just so appreciate you being on.

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Speaker 3: So thank you, Yeah, thank you again. Thanks for the opportunity. Jams.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely all right, everybody, Well, we will catch you on

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00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 1: the next episode of Thinking Christian. Come on back and

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Speaker 1: we'll have some other great conversations and guests and hopefully Steve.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you're open to it, but i'd

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Speaker 1: love to have you back, so it'll be great. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right, very cool. All right, thanks everybody. We'll catch

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Speaker 1: you on the next episode.

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Speaker 2: Take care.

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Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the

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Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on

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00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,839
Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,

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Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.

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Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.