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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Build Different is a production of the American Association of

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Speaker 2: Christian Counselors. To support this podcast and learn how you

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Speaker 2: people everywhere, just go to aaccfoundation.org. Again, that's aaccfoundation.org. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 2: welcome back into the Build Different podcast. I'll be your

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Speaker 2: host today, Dr. Zach Clinton. And I just want to

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Speaker 2: begin by thanking you so much for taking the time

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Speaker 1: I read them. I appreciate your feedback.

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Speaker 2: And I always love hearing how these conversations are impacting

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Speaker 2: your life. I also want you to know today, before

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Speaker 2: we begin, that Built Different is proudly sponsored by Liberty University.

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Speaker 2: Liberty University has impacted my life greatly. My friend, I'm

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Speaker 2: a graduate and a big believer in what Liberty University

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Speaker 2: Jerry Falwell Sr. is alive and well, and I believe

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Speaker 2: to liberty.edu. Again, that's www.liberty.edu forward slash built different to

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Speaker 2: start your journey to personal growth and professional fulfillment today.

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Speaker 2: All right, my friend, let's dive into today's conversation with

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Speaker 2: a very special guest.

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Speaker 3: Hello, everybody.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back into the Build Different Podcast. As always, we'll

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Speaker 2: be your host today, Dr. Zach Glenn.

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Speaker 1: Dr. Tim Clinton. And we're excited for this one. I

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Speaker 1: know this. I love music.

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Speaker 2: Music is just a window into the soul. It's a

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Speaker 2: way to express oneself. And for me, it's really revealed

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Speaker 2: a lot about God. in multiple different facets. And today

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Speaker 2: we're sitting down with somebody who has been in the

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Speaker 2: Christian heavy metal band world for a long time. John Cooper,

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Speaker 2: the lead singer, the founder of Skillet. You may have

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Speaker 2: heard of the band, 23 million albums sold, billions of streams.

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Speaker 2: Their song Monster has over 4 billion streams globally, massive tours.

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Speaker 2: I mean, God has done something special in and through

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Speaker 2: his life and his leadership and And he still is.

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Speaker 1: John, my friend, thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 3: What's up? I'm a doctor. I'm a doctor of rock.

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Speaker 1: I love it.

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Speaker 3: Doctor of rock. Seem to kiss on. They call me Dr.

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Speaker 2: Love.

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Speaker 3: Dr.

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Speaker 2: Love.

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Speaker 4: That's back a little bit. That is going back a

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Speaker 4: little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: 40 years before I was born.

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Speaker 1: Let's go. Come on.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say, John, I know you guys

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Speaker 2: have been doing this for a long time. Coming up

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Speaker 2: on 30 years, I believe, in the music and the

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Speaker 2: ministry space, and God is continuing to use you in

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Speaker 2: powerful ways. Last time I interviewed you, I shared about

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Speaker 2: one of my best friends from high school. His name

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Speaker 2: is Spencer Shocks. Shout out to my buddy. He fell

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Speaker 2: in love with heavy metal music and really just helped

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Speaker 2: him grow in his relationship with God was when he

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Speaker 2: found the band Skillet.

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Speaker 3: Amazing.

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Speaker 1: And God used your voice.

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Speaker 2: As a conduit through which he channeled a lot of

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Speaker 2: messages in Spencer's life that he needed in a lot

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Speaker 2: of hard times. So let me just say on behalf

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Speaker 2: of my friend, thank you. But I want to ask,

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Speaker 2: I read recently that this new EP releasing in October,

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Speaker 2: After the Storm, it's a big one because it's not

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Speaker 2: just something that is going to help cement your guys'

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Speaker 2: legacy with Skillet, but it's really writing a new chapter.

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Speaker 2: I've seen it's the most emotionally driven EP that you

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Speaker 2: guys have released to date. I'm just interested, what's at

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Speaker 2: the heart of all of this in this new chapter

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Speaker 2: and new season?

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Speaker 3: Right, right. Well, good job for your friend, Spencer.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, music does really help people. And I'm

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Speaker 4: always honored when I hear things like that. I'm usually

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Speaker 4: shocked at first because I don't think of myself as.

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Speaker 3: doing that.

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Speaker 4: But then I'm like, well, that's, but that's what music

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Speaker 4: did for me. Uh, Christian metal really helped me growing up.

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Speaker 4: So it's a real honor, you know? So, uh, we

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Speaker 4: are celebrating 30 years this year, actually. So this is

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Speaker 4: our 30th year anniversary, which I am stunned. Nobody's more

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Speaker 4: surprised at skill that is still going than I am.

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Speaker 4: I promise you nobody. I'm like, we're not really that good.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how that happened. Uh, but that's the

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Speaker 4: plans God had. And, uh, it is such an absolute honor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I do.

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Speaker 4: What's crazy, and I'm sure maybe not so much you,

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Speaker 4: but maybe you can attest. I don't feel like I've

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Speaker 4: been doing it long enough to be 30. I'm like,

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Speaker 4: I don't feel this old.

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Speaker 1: It's like, where'd the time go?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't feel that old. I feel like I'm

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Speaker 4: kind of just now getting my stride. I'm learning a

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Speaker 4: thing or two. I'm still dumb. Not as dumb as

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Speaker 4: I used to be. I'm still making mistakes. Maybe not

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Speaker 4: as many as I used to make. It's really amazing.

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Speaker 4: And so as we're kind of coming into this season,

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Speaker 4: you are always asking, like, is it getting time to

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Speaker 4: kind of retire? Are you becoming irrelevant maybe? You know, music,

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Speaker 4: it's hard to say relevant. And I have my best friend.

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Speaker 4: He's a pastor, but he's one of my best friends

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Speaker 4: from high school. And I'd always tell him because he's

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Speaker 4: a pastor and he did youth work. And I said, man,

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Speaker 4: whenever we start to get irrelevant but we don't know it,

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Speaker 4: but your youth group knows it, you've got to come

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Speaker 4: tell me.

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Speaker 1: Don't let us go there. Don't let us go there.

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Speaker 4: Don't let me be that guy that thinks he's still...

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Speaker 4: What is it? It's in that film Austin Powers, and Dr.

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Speaker 4: Evil says, there really is nothing more pathetic than an

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Speaker 4: aging hipster. And I said, you've got to let me know.

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Speaker 4: But as we're rounding it out, we did release this

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Speaker 4: EP recently, that I do think is impactful. And I

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Speaker 4: do think it's probably the most raw, unfiltered, emotional we

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Speaker 4: have been in a very long time. Probably since our

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Speaker 4: 2006 release, Comatose. And I think this might even be

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Speaker 4: a little bit more because it's dealing with a lot

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Speaker 4: of heartache. It's why it's called After the Storm. And

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Speaker 4: in fact, the lyric of the chorus of that song,

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Speaker 4: title track, that's what we call it in the music business,

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Speaker 4: the title track, says, picking up the pieces after the storm,

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Speaker 4: how am I still standing? And that is a very,

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Speaker 4: I mean, when I hear it, every time I hear it,

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Speaker 4: I'm like, that's how I feel. Like, I don't know

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Speaker 4: how we made it through this. It's been a brutal

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Speaker 4: few years. And we wanted to write about that because

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Speaker 4: the Christian life, you're always holding onto these two, this

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Speaker 4: tension of Christ is victorious, the way we know it.

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Speaker 4: And we are living in that victory because of the

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Speaker 4: work he did.

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Speaker 3: But it ain't always easy. It's a broken world. It

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Speaker 3: is a broken world. And it gets dark.

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Speaker 4: It gets dark and there's no guarantee. It was, it's

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Speaker 4: not every day. It's like a joy parade. It's not

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Speaker 4: like every day is like just walking in victory.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 4: So in theology, not to get too deep into it,

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Speaker 4: but I'm sure some people will appreciate just knowing what

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Speaker 4: they call it in theology. We are living in the

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Speaker 4: already and not yet of the kingdom. We are living

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Speaker 4: in that victory, but we don't, we still have to

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Speaker 4: walk through this life. We know the, we will live

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Speaker 4: in the, in the, What do you want to call it?

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Speaker 4: Like the reality of that perfect victory when Christ comes again.

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Speaker 4: And until he comes again, we've got to suffer through.

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Speaker 4: And that's just the way it goes. So all of

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Speaker 4: that is kind of shoved into this album.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Don't get overwhelmed by those fiery trials that just might

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Speaker 1: do that to you. You know, and I remember as

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Speaker 1: a kid, I went to Bible camp. And in Bible camp,

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Speaker 1: we had to learn that verse out of James 1.

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Speaker 1: count it all joy when you fall into trials and tribulations.

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Speaker 3: I hate that.

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Speaker 4: No, seriously.

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Speaker 1: 13-year-old boy, I'm saying, why are we learning this? Seriously,

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Speaker 1: what are we doing here? Why am I going to

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Speaker 1: memorize that verse? Well, you learn that somehow, I guess,

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Speaker 1: in the midst of that, you begin to see life differently.

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Speaker 1: The lessons learned in those places, if you can do it,

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Speaker 1: and God will take you in and through it.

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Speaker 3: He will.

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Speaker 1: He'll He may not prevent those things from happening, but

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Speaker 1: somehow in the midst of the storm, he's in there.

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Speaker 1: And then figuring out how to go on, that's the

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Speaker 1: challenging piece. John, there's so much that we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about today, but I want to step back for

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Speaker 1: a moment and talk about the lane that you live

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Speaker 1: in and the messaging that you bring. The lane. Probably

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Speaker 1: people have been a little critical of you at times,

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Speaker 1: living in this lane. You know, Francis Schaeffer, years ago,

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Speaker 1: I remember when I was going through college at Liberty,

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Speaker 1: Francis Schaeffer would come. I was a pastor's major, and

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Speaker 1: he'd talk about, by any and every means possible, let's

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Speaker 1: get the gospel out.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 1: And I thought about, that's innovative thinking. You heard him say?

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And there are a lot of people who are drawn

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Speaker 1: to hard music, you know? They may not like, you know,

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Speaker 1: that costume. You have a Kiss costume that you kind

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Speaker 1: of wear every now and then.

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Speaker 3: Right. I'm just kidding. no no here i brought it

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Speaker 3: in case y'all want it show and.

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Speaker 1: Tell no but that lane talk to us about that

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Speaker 1: lane yeah and you don't hit these kind of numbers

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Speaker 1: that zach was talking about because people aren't listening to

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Speaker 1: it so there's something happening and then i also know

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Speaker 1: you you and i had we've had some conversations some

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Speaker 1: deep conversations you're you're bold you're passionate you're You don't

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Speaker 1: mince words. I mean, you go right at it. Let's

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Speaker 1: get after it. And so take us down that. Help

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Speaker 1: everybody understand John Cooper.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, what a great way to set it up. I

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Speaker 4: love that you brought Schaefer into this. A lot of

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Speaker 4: people don't know who Schaefer is now, which is crazy.

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Speaker 4: It's within a group of people, and you see how

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Speaker 4: much his influence is. A lot of people might know

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Speaker 4: people who are influenced by Schaeffer more than even Schaeffer,

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Speaker 4: you know, which is crazy. And I think one of

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Speaker 4: the things that he understood was Christ being Lord of

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Speaker 4: all things and Lord of art, Lord of music, Lord

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Speaker 4: of architecture, Lord of everything. And so I think that

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Speaker 4: that's one of the things, without getting too into it,

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't have known this 30 years, 40 years ago,

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Speaker 4: what I'm about to say. I wouldn't have known it.

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Speaker 4: I know it a little bit more philosophically now. The

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Speaker 4: understanding of Christianity 500, 600, 700, 800 years ago by

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Speaker 4: the idea of going, okay, how do we make Christ

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Speaker 4: known and glorified in everything that we do in our art?

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Speaker 4: They were creating art for that purpose, and it was

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Speaker 4: for worship. And so in some ways, it's kind of–

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Speaker 4: it's always funny to me. With Skillet, the secular world

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Speaker 4: thinks we're too Christian. Sometimes the Christian world thinks we're

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Speaker 4: too secular. And for me, I've always been like, I

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Speaker 4: don't understand. Music belongs to God. And throughout all of civilization,

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Speaker 4: music has been a spiritual enterprise. A religious enterprise is

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Speaker 4: really only until, what, 1600, 1700, and enlightenment and other

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Speaker 4: things that all of a sudden music began to be

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Speaker 4: for other things.

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Speaker 3: It was really for worship.

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Speaker 4: Whether it was paganism or whether it was Christianity or

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Speaker 4: other things. So for me, I didn't understand any of that.

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Speaker 4: I just knew as a young person. Growing up in

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Speaker 4: a family that believed that rock and roll was evil,

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Speaker 4: that Christian rock and roll was the most evil thing

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Speaker 4: that Satan ever did on the earth. I went to

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Speaker 4: Bill Gothard seminars as a kid. My parents were freaking

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Speaker 4: out because I loved metal and I wasn't allowed to

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Speaker 4: listen to it. And I loved Christian rock and roll.

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Speaker 4: I would hear it at a friend's house and my

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Speaker 4: parents wouldn't let me listen to it. And they brought

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Speaker 4: me to Bill Gothard and they put the fear of

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Speaker 4: God into you if you listen to this. And I

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Speaker 4: remember as a 12-year-old arguing with my mom. My mom

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Speaker 4: loved Jesus, was a wonderful, wonderful Jesus follower. But I

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Speaker 4: would just be like, I just need you to explain again.

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Speaker 4: how the devil created rock music. Because you've also taught

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Speaker 4: me that the devil doesn't create stuff. So I don't

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Speaker 4: understand how he creates. I couldn't wrap my head around.

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Speaker 4: And I remember saying to my mom, yeah, but you

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Speaker 4: said that the devil distorts things. So God creates and

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Speaker 4: it's called good. And then the devil distorts it. So

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Speaker 4: wouldn't that just mean that he has distorted rock music,

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Speaker 4: but that actually music is good and that Because of

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Speaker 4: the way we use it, we can turn it. I

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Speaker 4: remember having these conversations with my mom as a young person.

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Speaker 4: My mom passed away when I was 15, and so

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Speaker 4: I never disparaged my mom. She's the reason I'm living

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Speaker 4: for Jesus. But it's just something I think she misunderstood.

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Speaker 4: They were living in a very fearful place and not

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Speaker 4: understanding that Christ is Lord of rock music and music

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Speaker 4: affects people. Music is a doorway into people's hearts.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 4: They don't even know what they're feeling. It's the reason

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Speaker 4: we have music in movies. You watch a movie, there

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Speaker 4: might not even be any dialogue, but the music. Imagine

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Speaker 4: Lord of the Rings without music. Imagine Braveheart without the bagpipes.

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Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying? If I hear bagpipes now,

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Speaker 4: I'm like, every man dies, but not every man truly lives.

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Speaker 2: Freedom!

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Speaker 3: I'm drawing a sword.

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Speaker 4: I'm ready to go because the bagpipes take you back.

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Speaker 4: So music does that to people. it gets past people's defenses.

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Speaker 4: And God used music to change me in really profound ways.

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Speaker 4: And so that's me. I'm just like, yeah, we're going

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Speaker 4: to sing about real stuff. And I want to sing

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Speaker 4: about real Christianity. And I want to do that in

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Speaker 4: real ways. And sometimes that means singing a really positive

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Speaker 4: song about not giving up because of my faith in God.

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Speaker 4: And sometimes it means singing a song that's like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: that was a bad day. Not sure if I'm going

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Speaker 4: to make it. And guess what? The Both of these

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Speaker 4: things are genuine, authentic things. You know, somebody said to

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Speaker 4: me online, we have a new song called Scream. And

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Speaker 4: they were like, how in the world is this song Christian?

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Speaker 4: Because it's talking, you're screaming. It's like you're saying it

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Speaker 4: feels like life has no meaning. And I'm like, that's

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Speaker 4: what the preacher says in Ecclesiastes. That's the beginning of Ecclesiastes.

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Speaker 3: Vanity. Nothing. It's nothingness.

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Speaker 4: It's absolute meaninglessness, says the preacher. And I think we're

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Speaker 4: in line with the Bible when we talk about things

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Speaker 4: like that.

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Speaker 2: Hey, my friend, before we jump back into today's conversation,

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Speaker 2: I just want to remind you that Built Different is

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Speaker 2: proudly sponsored by Liberty University. This partnership means a lot

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Speaker 2: to me personally. You know, I was born and raised

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Speaker 2: in Lynchburg, Virginia, and I've watched Liberty grow tremendously over

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Speaker 2: the years. But I've also experienced firsthand the impact this

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Speaker 2: university can have on a life. I graduated from Liberty.

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Speaker 2: I played four years of Division I baseball here. I

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Speaker 2: met some of my closest friends and most influential mentors here.

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Speaker 1: I met my wife, Evelyn, here.

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Speaker 2: And most importantly, Liberty became part of the story God

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Speaker 2: used to deepen my relationship with Jesus Christ. Today, I

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Speaker 2: have the privilege of continuing that story by serving Liberty

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Speaker 2: Athletics and investing in the lives and mental health of

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Speaker 2: our student athletes. That's why I believe so deeply in

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Speaker 2: Liberty's mission to train champions for Christ. With more than

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Speaker 2: 16,000 residential students and 600 online programs, Liberty gives you

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Speaker 2: the opportunity to pursue your education alongside faculty who want

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Speaker 2: to help equip you for your calling on campus, online,

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Speaker 2: and around the world. To learn more and to take

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Speaker 2: that next step, all you have to do is go

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Speaker 2: to liberty.edu forward slash built different today. I would love

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Speaker 2: to go back because in knowing that, you know, God

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Speaker 2: hardwired you not for entertainment, but for a form of

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Speaker 2: expression through the lane of music, right? Especially through metal,

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Speaker 2: because you were heavily influenced back in those days, whether

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Speaker 2: it was by Christian rock and more, I'm thinking back

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Speaker 2: to the eighties, I wasn't born yet. I wasn't even

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Speaker 2: a thought yet, but 85, 86, I was hearing these

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Speaker 2: guys when it comes to Metallica and Motley crew and

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Speaker 2: Bon Jovi and just these different bands that may have

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Speaker 2: been influencing you during those times and, And I'm just thinking,

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Speaker 2: how in the world did a band now, reflecting back

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Speaker 2: on 30 years, like, I want to go back to

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Speaker 2: the beginning.

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Speaker 1: How did it get started?

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Speaker 2: When you have all these other people speaking into you saying, hey,

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's a good thing for you.

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Speaker 1: Maybe to begin.

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Speaker 3: Number nine. Number nine.

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Speaker 1: Remember all that stuff?

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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. The back masking.

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Speaker 1: How did it get started, John? Take us back.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean.

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Speaker 4: My mom was a piano teacher and a voice teacher,

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Speaker 4: and so I grew up with music my whole life.

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Speaker 3: I mean, my mom taught piano lessons.

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Speaker 4: After school, I'd come home from school, piano lessons were

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Speaker 4: already going, and that would be all the way until dinnertime,

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Speaker 4: Saturday morning. All day piano lessons. My mom sang opera.

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Speaker 4: My mom would be singing opera really, really– I don't

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Speaker 4: know if you've heard people sing like that, but it

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Speaker 4: is loud.

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Speaker 3: It's loud.

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Speaker 4: It is much louder than rock and roll singers sing.

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Speaker 4: I can promise you that, which is another irony. She's

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Speaker 4: always like, I can't understand what they're saying. And I'm like,

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Speaker 4: I can't understand what you're saying. You're singing in Italian.

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Speaker 4: You don't know what you're saying. And now that I

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Speaker 4: know those opera songs, by the way, it is not sanctified.

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Speaker 4: Those operas are dirty, okay?

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Speaker 3: They are dirty. It's true. You're psychologists. You know what

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Speaker 3: these things are based on.

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Speaker 4: People that kill their dads because they wanted to sleep

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Speaker 4: with their dad's wife and all sorts of stuff.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, it's kind of an Oedipus thing. Anyhow, stop. I

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Speaker 3: read that somewhere.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, I forgot what we were talking about because I

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Speaker 4: got so excited about making fun of that opera.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: It got started.

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Speaker 4: So music was just in my house, and my mom

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Speaker 4: taught me to play piano, taught me how to sing.

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Speaker 4: And so for me, it was just a celebration of

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Speaker 4: what I thought my parents, my mom would like because

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Speaker 4: I'm like, well, she loves music. Why wouldn't you like

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Speaker 4: Michael Jackson? Because I heard Michael Jackson at a friend's house,

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Speaker 4: and I came home singing it, and my mom gave

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Speaker 4: me a.

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Speaker 3: Holy butt whooping.

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Speaker 4: I mean, the butts, the spanking of all spankings just

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Speaker 4: spanked the devil out of me. And so that's kind

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Speaker 4: of how that started. I never once brought a secular tape.

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Speaker 4: We used to call them album or tapes before they

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Speaker 4: were CDs. I never once brought it home because I

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Speaker 4: knew my parents wouldn't like it. And I was like,

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Speaker 4: fair enough. some of this stuff I know is not glorifying.

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Speaker 4: I can tell what they're saying. And I think they're

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Speaker 4: being a little bit crazy, but I'm not going to

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Speaker 4: bring it in. But I did bring in Petra. I

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Speaker 4: did bring in Striper. And I'm just like, I don't

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Speaker 4: understand how you can't see how this is Christian, you know?

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Speaker 4: And so I think that when my mom died, I

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Speaker 4: was 15, that sort of kind of gave me the

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Speaker 4: I think I can kind of do what I want

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Speaker 4: to do now, you know, but it was still, I mean,

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Speaker 4: I'll just share this one thing. It was still a

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Speaker 4: big deal because my mom on her deathbed was having

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Speaker 4: a lot of visions and things like that. Now, I

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Speaker 4: know some people listening might believe in visions. Some people

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Speaker 4: might not, depending on where you fall in line of

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Speaker 4: those type issues, continuationism and cessationism and yada, yada, yada, fine.

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Speaker 3: Also, on top of that, and my mom was a very.

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Speaker 4: Mystical Christian as well, so she would have believed these

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Speaker 4: were visions from God. I am seeing heaven. I'm seeing

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Speaker 4: the angels, etc., But also, she's on tons of morphine.

404
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Speaker 4: I mean, in absolute agony for weeks. My mom would

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Speaker 4: not allow me and my brothers to come see her

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Speaker 4: the last three weeks she lived. I never got to

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Speaker 4: say bye to my mom. No, God's going to heal me.

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Speaker 4: And if you see me, you might live.

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Speaker 3: Faith.

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Speaker 4: And you coming to see me is an admission that

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Speaker 4: I'm not going to be healed. So she had gone

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Speaker 4: down a little bit of what I would consider to

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Speaker 4: be a very extreme, I would call it word of faith.

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Speaker 4: I'm not being rude to anybody's word of faith, but

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Speaker 4: to my mind, it was a little extreme. I would

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Speaker 4: have liked to have said bye to my mom. going

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Speaker 4: down this path and she's on a load of morphine.

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Speaker 4: And during that time, one of her visions was seeing

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Speaker 4: me leading a bunch of young people playing rock music,

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Speaker 4: leading them to hell. And so that was a very warning.

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Speaker 4: My family was very big on, you're hurting your mother

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Speaker 4: by wanting.

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Speaker 3: To play this Christian rock music. She had a.

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Speaker 4: A vision, a prophetic vision about this. And that did

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Speaker 4: affect me. I'm not going to lie. That did affect

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Speaker 4: me because I don't want to lead someone to hell.

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Speaker 4: And what if that is true and et cetera, et cetera,

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Speaker 4: et cetera. And I talked with my pastor about it

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Speaker 4: for about a year. And I just kept saying, I just,

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Speaker 4: I feel this burning passion for, that I believe is

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Speaker 4: the most I can explain, a calling from God to

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Speaker 4: play music for the Lord. I just feel it burning

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Speaker 4: in me, and I need somebody to tell me if

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Speaker 4: I need to put that away. Maybe that's the devil.

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Speaker 4: Maybe I need to put it away, or maybe it

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00:21:14,550 --> 00:21:17,190
Speaker 4: really is God. And that was a very heavy thing.

437
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:18,730
Speaker 3: And after a year.

438
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,680
Speaker 4: I ended up reading a scripture that I felt applied

439
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,639
Speaker 4: to me. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but it's

440
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:29,120
Speaker 4: the scripture when Jesus calls, he calls someone to follow him.

441
00:21:29,180 --> 00:21:31,260
Speaker 4: And the guy's like, yeah, absolutely. I want to go

442
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,699
Speaker 4: ahead and I want to go home and bury my father.

443
00:21:33,740 --> 00:21:35,330
Speaker 4: And he's like, let the dead bury their dead. You

444
00:21:35,350 --> 00:21:37,810
Speaker 4: do it now or you don't do it. And I'm

445
00:21:37,850 --> 00:21:41,230
Speaker 4: not saying that absolutely applies to my situation, but as

446
00:21:41,310 --> 00:21:43,550
Speaker 4: I read it, I just felt like a Are you

447
00:21:43,570 --> 00:21:45,330
Speaker 4: going to do what God's called you to do or not?

448
00:21:45,550 --> 00:21:50,229
Speaker 4: There's no biblical reason, I believe, why music is evil.

449
00:21:51,670 --> 00:21:54,389
Speaker 4: I don't believe it. I think she's theologically wrong. I

450
00:21:54,410 --> 00:21:57,470
Speaker 4: think Bill Gothard was kind of a crackpot personally.

451
00:21:57,630 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 3: Sorry, but I do.

452
00:21:59,210 --> 00:22:02,669
Speaker 4: And read his stuff, been to his seminars. Don't believe it.

453
00:22:03,020 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 4: I think probably a cult as well. And not into that.

454
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 4: Think he's wrong. And I'm just going to follow what

455
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 4: I believe God's told me to do.

456
00:22:11,060 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 3: Hell or high water. That's how we got here.

457
00:22:14,570 --> 00:22:16,190
Speaker 1: John, reflecting on your career.

458
00:22:16,450 --> 00:22:16,670
Speaker 3: Yes.

459
00:22:19,390 --> 00:22:23,570
Speaker 1: You look at songs like Monster. How do you explain

460
00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:30,090
Speaker 1: how many downloads? Four billion streams and more of that.

461
00:22:30,270 --> 00:22:30,910
Speaker 3: It's crazy.

462
00:22:31,030 --> 00:22:35,010
Speaker 1: It's crazy. There's messaging in here somewhere that's connecting.

463
00:22:35,270 --> 00:22:35,570
Speaker 3: Yeah.

464
00:22:35,670 --> 00:22:38,689
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying? And understanding the power of

465
00:22:38,790 --> 00:22:42,020
Speaker 1: all that. What does God begin to speak to you

466
00:22:42,130 --> 00:22:44,820
Speaker 1: about in your own heart of saying, listen, this is

467
00:22:44,859 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 1: a platform, and you've got people bringing everything they've got.

468
00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:53,649
Speaker 1: They're literally pouring out their self in the midst of it.

469
00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 1: I was listening to a little piece of an interview

470
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,980
Speaker 1: by Greg Laurie with Alice Cooper. Oh, yeah, yeah.

471
00:23:00,010 --> 00:23:00,850
Speaker 3: I saw that. Yeah, yeah.

472
00:23:00,950 --> 00:23:04,570
Speaker 1: And go back. When I was a kid, we had

473
00:23:04,590 --> 00:23:08,690
Speaker 1: a cabin, and this is a crazy story. My mother

474
00:23:08,730 --> 00:23:10,909
Speaker 1: would say, listen, you better be careful with your moods.

475
00:23:11,310 --> 00:23:13,969
Speaker 1: The music you guys are doing, okay? Anyway, we got

476
00:23:14,010 --> 00:23:16,590
Speaker 1: to dabbling with a crazy Ouija board down there. Some

477
00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 1: kids did. And we had all these albums. I mean,

478
00:23:20,380 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: we had stored up. Remember back in the day, you

479
00:23:22,060 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 1: could get like 12 for a dollar.

480
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:24,899
Speaker 3: And all these.

481
00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:27,980
Speaker 1: And Hell's Bells was one of the albums.

482
00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 3: I'll never forget.

483
00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:31,340
Speaker 1: They had that thing playing one night in the cabin.

484
00:23:32,180 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: We left the place burnt down that night.

485
00:23:35,780 --> 00:23:36,300
Speaker 3: Oh, wow.

486
00:23:36,380 --> 00:23:39,460
Speaker 1: To the ground. I mean, to the ground.

487
00:23:39,730 --> 00:23:41,350
Speaker 3: Ground. Really? Yeah.

488
00:23:41,490 --> 00:23:44,390
Speaker 1: And I'm like, and you know what? I'm sitting back thinking,

489
00:23:44,430 --> 00:23:46,669
Speaker 1: here's a pastor's kid all of a sudden. I love music.

490
00:23:46,869 --> 00:23:47,250
Speaker 1: You know that?

491
00:23:47,270 --> 00:23:47,409
Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.

492
00:23:47,430 --> 00:23:49,830
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, dude, what's going on here? But coming

493
00:23:49,890 --> 00:23:53,410
Speaker 1: back and I think about how he, as a pastor's son,

494
00:23:53,730 --> 00:23:57,290
Speaker 1: as a kid, going where he went and then coming

495
00:23:57,350 --> 00:23:58,990
Speaker 1: full circle. You hear what I'm saying?

496
00:23:59,150 --> 00:23:59,470
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

497
00:23:59,510 --> 00:24:01,350
Speaker 1: In this whole journey piece. And I'm just coming back

498
00:24:01,710 --> 00:24:04,930
Speaker 1: and you thinking about how God has used that crazy

499
00:24:05,130 --> 00:24:08,889
Speaker 1: hunger to Yes. This sensational piece in the souls of

500
00:24:08,990 --> 00:24:11,390
Speaker 1: people everywhere. You know what I'm saying? And it's connecting.

501
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:11,850
Speaker 3: You got it?

502
00:24:12,190 --> 00:24:15,550
Speaker 1: And the messaging becomes really critical. What goes on in

503
00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:18,550
Speaker 1: John Cooper's mind when he's on stage, when he's looking around,

504
00:24:18,630 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: seeing everybody and more, and knowing that I'm bringing something somewhere, somehow,

505
00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: like a fresh, cold cup of water to this barren

506
00:24:29,940 --> 00:24:32,820
Speaker 1: soul that literally is being poured out in front of me.

507
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 3: Yes.

508
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 2: Wow. Wow.

509
00:24:35,630 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 3: It is very intense. I didn't hear that, but that's intense.

510
00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:45,880
Speaker 4: I mean, music, from what I've seen, I haven't met

511
00:24:45,940 --> 00:24:50,820
Speaker 4: anybody yet, atheist, Christian, anybody on any spectrum that denies

512
00:24:50,859 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 4: it whenever I say anything.

513
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 3: Music is power.

514
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 4: All of my atheist rock and roll friends, when I

515
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,060
Speaker 4: say to them, I'm like, hey, I know you don't

516
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,810
Speaker 4: believe in God, but would you agree that music is,

517
00:25:02,150 --> 00:25:04,330
Speaker 4: there's something spiritual and supernatural about it?

518
00:25:04,330 --> 00:25:05,369
Speaker 3: They're like, oh, absolutely.

519
00:25:05,670 --> 00:25:07,370
Speaker 4: So they don't believe in God, but they know there's

520
00:25:07,410 --> 00:25:08,889
Speaker 4: something spiritual about music.

521
00:25:09,270 --> 00:25:10,129
Speaker 3: It is powerful.

522
00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:13,020
Speaker 4: And so I like what you're bringing up because it

523
00:25:13,060 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 4: can be used. This is where I was like, when I,

524
00:25:16,940 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 4: you know, if I was, my mom was here, she

525
00:25:18,660 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 4: didn't die. We would laugh and I would be like,

526
00:25:21,340 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 4: there is something about what you're saying that's absolutely true.

527
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 3: Music is powerful.

528
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 4: And of course the enemy has used this For incredible damage.

529
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 4: I mean, really, it's hard to imagine such thing as

530
00:25:34,020 --> 00:25:37,740
Speaker 4: the 60s sexual revolution without rock and roll. I mean,

531
00:25:37,859 --> 00:25:43,300
Speaker 4: it was literally the soundtrack to mayhem. So there's no

532
00:25:43,460 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 4: question about that. The question for me kind of comes

533
00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 4: to like saying, well, in my opinion, remember when Moses

534
00:25:53,619 --> 00:25:56,020
Speaker 4: went to Pharaoh and he's saying, let my people go

535
00:25:56,140 --> 00:25:59,460
Speaker 4: and he throws down the rod and it becomes a snake.

536
00:25:59,540 --> 00:26:02,020
Speaker 4: And then Pharaoh's magicians are like, oh, we can do

537
00:26:02,060 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 4: that too. And they throw, well, they were thrown down.

538
00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:08,899
Speaker 4: From what I believe and what I understand, it wasn't

539
00:26:08,940 --> 00:26:14,450
Speaker 4: a parlor trick. They're They were becoming snakes, right? They

540
00:26:14,470 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 4: were active sorcery. They were becoming snakes, and it was

541
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 4: real snakes. But God's power was even greater. And that's

542
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,300
Speaker 4: kind of my philosophy of the thing, which is like, yeah,

543
00:26:24,340 --> 00:26:27,450
Speaker 4: music has been used for really terrible things. But what

544
00:26:27,490 --> 00:26:30,669
Speaker 4: happens if we glorify God with it? What happens if

545
00:26:30,730 --> 00:26:34,700
Speaker 4: we say, I don't want to be too overly supernatural here,

546
00:26:34,740 --> 00:26:37,459
Speaker 4: but I kind of believe when we're singing songs that

547
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,570
Speaker 4: have scriptures in the songs or we're singing from that

548
00:26:40,630 --> 00:26:43,929
Speaker 4: point of view of singing about God's love. and the

549
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,620
Speaker 4: cross that can set you free, the blood of Jesus

550
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,540
Speaker 4: that can set you, I actually think God, he might

551
00:26:49,580 --> 00:26:53,379
Speaker 4: do something really amazing. If the devil can do it

552
00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:55,909
Speaker 4: and somebody's like, wow, they were listening to it, all

553
00:26:55,930 --> 00:26:58,330
Speaker 4: of a sudden things enter their hearts or negativity.

554
00:26:58,350 --> 00:26:59,350
Speaker 1: If it can go that way, it can go this way.

555
00:26:59,390 --> 00:27:00,149
Speaker 1: It can go that way.

556
00:27:00,510 --> 00:27:04,870
Speaker 4: And maybe even stronger, going back to my Pharaoh analogy.

557
00:27:04,990 --> 00:27:05,910
Speaker 3: And we've seen that.

558
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 4: And so I love to brag on God, and I'll

559
00:27:09,180 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 4: just brag on him a little bit. Because when I

560
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 4: hear these stories, I find them hard to believe, except

561
00:27:13,980 --> 00:27:17,340
Speaker 4: that I've met the people. There was somebody that came

562
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,590
Speaker 4: to a show years ago. He said, Skillet was opening

563
00:27:22,650 --> 00:27:25,030
Speaker 4: up for a very big secular band. He's like, I

564
00:27:25,070 --> 00:27:27,530
Speaker 4: never heard of Skillet before. I was just there. I

565
00:27:27,570 --> 00:27:29,669
Speaker 4: had my spot nice and early so I could get

566
00:27:29,710 --> 00:27:31,670
Speaker 4: close to see the headlining band play.

567
00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:34,770
Speaker 3: You came on stage and you started playing the song.

568
00:27:34,810 --> 00:27:36,930
Speaker 3: I'd never heard. He's like, it was called I'm awake.

569
00:27:36,970 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 3: I'm alive.

570
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,179
Speaker 4: And I, and I'm like, Oh yeah, waking alive. He's like, yeah,

571
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,959
Speaker 4: it was that song. Never heard it. And while you

572
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,980
Speaker 4: were playing, I just got really emotional and I started

573
00:27:46,060 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 4: like tearing up and I didn't know why. And I

574
00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 4: just knew I, a voice said in my, in like

575
00:27:52,020 --> 00:27:54,180
Speaker 4: in my head, I heard a voice say, you need

576
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,770
Speaker 4: to go to church. And I didn't know why. And

577
00:27:56,810 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 4: I texted the only friend I had that's a Christian

578
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 4: and said, I think I need to come to church.

579
00:28:03,619 --> 00:28:06,700
Speaker 4: And he said, I went with him, heard the gospel,

580
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,620
Speaker 4: gave my life to Jesus. And he's like, it's been

581
00:28:09,660 --> 00:28:13,230
Speaker 4: eight months. I just got baptized. It's all because of

582
00:28:13,310 --> 00:28:18,909
Speaker 4: this random opening act for a song I never heard.

583
00:28:19,390 --> 00:28:21,780
Speaker 4: It's not like we gave the gospel. You're just singing

584
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 4: a song. I've heard testimonies like that so often. It's

585
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:33,110
Speaker 4: absolutely crazy. Just last summer, we played a festival in Hungary.

586
00:28:34,550 --> 00:28:38,590
Speaker 4: Massive festival, probably 80,000 people there. We played there several times.

587
00:28:39,230 --> 00:28:44,030
Speaker 4: And in the past, we had great, great crowds. And

588
00:28:44,090 --> 00:28:46,910
Speaker 4: this time, they gave us one of the best slots

589
00:28:46,970 --> 00:28:49,550
Speaker 4: of the night, opening up for one of the biggest

590
00:28:49,610 --> 00:28:50,850
Speaker 4: bands of the whole thing.

591
00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:52,950
Speaker 3: Wow. And I was really excited.

592
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,140
Speaker 4: And as we were about to go on stage, the

593
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,540
Speaker 4: way they do these shows a lot of the times

594
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 4: is that the headliner has all their gear, and then

595
00:29:01,010 --> 00:29:03,010
Speaker 4: the band before them sets up in front of them.

596
00:29:03,170 --> 00:29:03,450
Speaker 3: Gotcha.

597
00:29:03,510 --> 00:29:05,490
Speaker 4: And then the band in front. So they call it

598
00:29:05,550 --> 00:29:07,489
Speaker 4: play and peel. You play, and they peel all your

599
00:29:07,530 --> 00:29:10,190
Speaker 4: stuff off. And as I was going on stage, I

600
00:29:10,250 --> 00:29:14,790
Speaker 4: saw the headliners' props, like all the big stuff you might.

601
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,300
Speaker 3: See at a KISS show or something.

602
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:16,500
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

603
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 4: And one of their props was a 30-foot… Upside down

604
00:29:21,940 --> 00:29:26,140
Speaker 4: crucifix with Jesus hanging upside down and bleeding. And it was,

605
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,310
Speaker 4: it was an actual, not a pretend satanic act. It

606
00:29:30,330 --> 00:29:33,850
Speaker 4: was an actual, actually an act that really is an

607
00:29:34,070 --> 00:29:38,090
Speaker 4: actual satanic act. And I was like, oh, and all

608
00:29:38,170 --> 00:29:41,010
Speaker 4: of a sudden I could just feel this approach. like

609
00:29:41,730 --> 00:29:44,130
Speaker 4: I could feel it. And I remember thinking, okay, we're

610
00:29:44,170 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 4: going on stage. And before we go on stage, the

611
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 4: band huddles up and we all quote, the Lord is

612
00:29:51,740 --> 00:29:55,180
Speaker 4: my rock, trains my hands for war, gives my fingers

613
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 4: skill for battle because we're going into spiritual warfare.

614
00:29:58,060 --> 00:29:59,870
Speaker 3: We went and played, and it was a, I'm not

615
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:01,990
Speaker 3: going to lie, it was a very difficult performance.

616
00:30:02,030 --> 00:30:04,850
Speaker 4: I could feel, I could just feel it. It did

617
00:30:04,890 --> 00:30:09,630
Speaker 4: not go good. It felt like, anyway, it was really weird.

618
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,220
Speaker 4: And we got off stage, and I said to my wife,

619
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 4: I was like, this is the best slot we've ever

620
00:30:14,220 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 4: had with 80,000 people.

621
00:30:16,660 --> 00:30:20,350
Speaker 3: And it felt spiritually oppressive.

622
00:30:22,010 --> 00:30:25,170
Speaker 4: Two months later we got an email from some random

623
00:30:25,210 --> 00:30:28,350
Speaker 4: fan at the things that I came to the festival.

624
00:30:29,030 --> 00:30:31,150
Speaker 4: I wanted to kill myself. This was going to be

625
00:30:31,190 --> 00:30:34,910
Speaker 4: my last, whatever. We were at the campground. I came

626
00:30:35,110 --> 00:30:37,950
Speaker 4: to see your show, didn't know your band. And he said,

627
00:30:37,970 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 4: you played this song hero. And you said something before

628
00:30:40,860 --> 00:30:43,060
Speaker 4: here that Jesus Christ was your hero. And I started

629
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,540
Speaker 4: crying and I cried all the way back to my

630
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,730
Speaker 4: campsite with my family and And they all say, what's wrong?

631
00:30:48,780 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 4: And I said, I was going to commit suicide after this,

632
00:30:50,780 --> 00:30:53,700
Speaker 4: but I feel like I can't now because Jesus, maybe

633
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 4: Jesus could be my hero.

634
00:30:55,620 --> 00:30:58,190
Speaker 3: This is only something God can do, right? Absolutely, yeah.

635
00:30:58,230 --> 00:31:00,670
Speaker 3: This is nothing a rock and roll band could do.

636
00:31:01,050 --> 00:31:04,220
Speaker 4: So if you said, if the devil can use it. Well,

637
00:31:04,540 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 4: all that he's doing is imitating. That's the rods being

638
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,530
Speaker 4: thrown down, the snakes. But what happens when Moses throws

639
00:31:12,570 --> 00:31:15,630
Speaker 4: his rod down is that snake eats the others.

640
00:31:16,110 --> 00:31:17,710
Speaker 3: That's my personal philosophy. That's right.

641
00:31:17,750 --> 00:31:19,690
Speaker 1: The enemy is not a creator. He's a confuser.

642
00:31:19,870 --> 00:31:23,090
Speaker 3: He is a distorter. That's all he does.

643
00:31:23,170 --> 00:31:26,190
Speaker 1: But using music in a positive light.

644
00:31:26,210 --> 00:31:28,490
Speaker 2: And I think why you guys have been so successful

645
00:31:28,530 --> 00:31:30,450
Speaker 2: and why God has been able to use you so

646
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,100
Speaker 2: profoundly over the last 30 years, John– is because you

647
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,700
Speaker 2: guys are raw, man. Like you're real, you're authentic. Your

648
00:31:37,860 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 2: music comes from a place in the depth of pain, right?

649
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,340
Speaker 2: Like you're not afraid to get emotional in your lyrics.

650
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 2: You're not going to just sugarcoat this thing. It's not

651
00:31:47,660 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 2: prim and proper. It is sometimes it's just painful, but

652
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,510
Speaker 2: this is mean what oozes out of John Cooper in

653
00:31:54,550 --> 00:31:57,190
Speaker 2: these moments. I would love just to hear, I know

654
00:31:57,210 --> 00:31:59,930
Speaker 2: with this new EP coming out after the storm, you

655
00:31:59,950 --> 00:32:02,710
Speaker 2: mentioned the last couple of years have been rough.

656
00:32:03,650 --> 00:32:04,610
Speaker 1: It's been a tough go.

657
00:32:04,770 --> 00:32:05,580
Speaker 3: Yes, it has.

658
00:32:05,730 --> 00:32:07,020
Speaker 1: So I would love for you to.

659
00:32:07,100 --> 00:32:09,340
Speaker 2: Catch us up to speed, just the toughness of the

660
00:32:09,380 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: last couple of years. And then I'm just thinking, you know,

661
00:32:12,140 --> 00:32:14,420
Speaker 2: there's one thing to go through the storm and during

662
00:32:14,460 --> 00:32:18,380
Speaker 2: the storm, it's painful. But after the storm, when identity

663
00:32:18,420 --> 00:32:20,930
Speaker 2: feels shattered, when it feels like you can't go back

664
00:32:20,950 --> 00:32:23,150
Speaker 2: because you lost who you once were, there were things

665
00:32:23,190 --> 00:32:25,810
Speaker 2: that were in that old season that you can't carry

666
00:32:25,870 --> 00:32:29,430
Speaker 2: into the new one. After the storm, sometimes the rebuild

667
00:32:29,830 --> 00:32:32,250
Speaker 2: can be even harder. Take us into just what does

668
00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:34,540
Speaker 2: it mean to John Cooper after the last couple of

669
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,300
Speaker 2: years to live life after the storm?

670
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 4: That's a really great setup. And I wish I could

671
00:32:40,700 --> 00:32:43,060
Speaker 4: say it as good as that. That's the rebuild. I

672
00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:47,070
Speaker 4: like that. Um, Yeah, people that have heard me in

673
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:51,110
Speaker 4: interviews and whatnot probably or met me rightly see me

674
00:32:51,170 --> 00:32:52,310
Speaker 4: as a friendly person.

675
00:32:52,330 --> 00:32:54,390
Speaker 3: I'm a very optimistic person.

676
00:32:54,790 --> 00:32:58,990
Speaker 4: I'm usually hyperactive, a little ADHD in there, never hurt anybody.

677
00:32:59,390 --> 00:33:00,430
Speaker 3: I'm a little crazy.

678
00:33:00,690 --> 00:33:03,830
Speaker 4: And I generally am always up, and I'm always a

679
00:33:04,410 --> 00:33:08,550
Speaker 4: pretty excitable type person. The last few years, I'm not

680
00:33:08,590 --> 00:33:12,430
Speaker 4: going to lie, I haven't been challenged like this since

681
00:33:12,530 --> 00:33:17,540
Speaker 4: I was a teenager. The darkness that I have experienced,

682
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,180
Speaker 4: I never thought I would ever experience this again. My

683
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,170
Speaker 4: testimony from being a teenager, briefly after my mom died,

684
00:33:26,650 --> 00:33:32,050
Speaker 4: fighting with my dad, the betrayal I felt. I would

685
00:33:32,670 --> 00:33:35,410
Speaker 4: not be able to sleep at night, probably a little

686
00:33:35,430 --> 00:33:38,530
Speaker 4: bit due to some of the ADHD. My mind would

687
00:33:38,570 --> 00:33:41,530
Speaker 4: be racing, but I would be up sitting in my

688
00:33:41,570 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 4: bed trying to sleep. for hours, couldn't sleep till one,

689
00:33:45,260 --> 00:33:48,100
Speaker 4: two in the morning sometimes. And I would sometimes fantasize

690
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:53,580
Speaker 4: about hurting people, fantasize about taking out bullies, people that

691
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,740
Speaker 4: I felt had done me wrong. And I would imagine

692
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,590
Speaker 4: scenarios of them doing that again and how that would end.

693
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:02,050
Speaker 3: Very dark.

694
00:34:02,180 --> 00:34:04,230
Speaker 4: And I would get afraid at my own thoughts and

695
00:34:04,250 --> 00:34:05,370
Speaker 4: I would ask for forgiveness.

696
00:34:05,490 --> 00:34:06,970
Speaker 3: And then the next night would be the same.

697
00:34:06,990 --> 00:34:11,430
Speaker 4: I was so angry and so wrathful and so alone

698
00:34:11,610 --> 00:34:16,069
Speaker 4: and so just depressed, betrayed.

699
00:34:16,130 --> 00:34:17,029
Speaker 3: I felt betrayed.

700
00:34:17,580 --> 00:34:20,739
Speaker 4: It was... Jesus to save me from that. And it

701
00:34:20,780 --> 00:34:23,390
Speaker 4: wasn't like all of a sudden one night everything got perfect.

702
00:34:23,450 --> 00:34:26,190
Speaker 4: That was like, am I ever going to get over this?

703
00:34:26,250 --> 00:34:29,109
Speaker 4: And it was Jesus that rescued me from that and

704
00:34:29,230 --> 00:34:32,230
Speaker 4: changed me to the place that most people that have

705
00:34:32,290 --> 00:34:35,299
Speaker 4: met me would never imagine me being angry like that

706
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,060
Speaker 4: because I'm a very, I'm a nice person. I'm approachable

707
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 4: and I'm friendly and I'm happy and extremely joyful. In

708
00:34:43,340 --> 00:34:45,819
Speaker 4: the last couple of years, I'll just say it like this,

709
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,779
Speaker 4: and I even kind of made that what some people

710
00:34:47,820 --> 00:34:50,540
Speaker 4: might think was a rude quip about Bill Gothard earlier.

711
00:34:50,860 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 4: I'll explain maybe a little bit why as I've gone

712
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,219
Speaker 4: back and studied why what happened to me happened. It's

713
00:34:58,340 --> 00:35:00,460
Speaker 4: got nothing to do with Bill Gothard, but you'll make

714
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 4: the connection when I say it. The last couple of years,

715
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 4: we experienced something that I can only– You know, you

716
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,700
Speaker 4: see a lot of these testimonies now on YouTube and

717
00:35:10,739 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 4: people that are talking about church abuse and this, that,

718
00:35:13,820 --> 00:35:15,859
Speaker 4: and the other. And sometimes you listen to them, you think,

719
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,470
Speaker 4: I can't relate to what they're saying. Or is this real?

720
00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:23,710
Speaker 4: Or is this exaggerated? Or that sounds horrible. Like, if

721
00:35:23,730 --> 00:35:27,170
Speaker 4: that's real, that's really terrible. But you don't know where

722
00:35:27,190 --> 00:35:29,990
Speaker 4: to put it. We went through a situation like that.

723
00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:32,540
Speaker 4: And it wasn't just my church. It was my church

724
00:35:32,580 --> 00:35:35,930
Speaker 4: of 30 years. that I have loved, that I have

725
00:35:36,010 --> 00:35:38,870
Speaker 4: labored in, that I have given to. And it wasn't

726
00:35:38,910 --> 00:35:42,489
Speaker 4: just my church leaders. They were my best friends. The

727
00:35:42,530 --> 00:35:44,130
Speaker 4: leader of my church was my best friend for the

728
00:35:44,150 --> 00:35:47,760
Speaker 4: last 30 years. And it was my family as well.

729
00:35:47,860 --> 00:35:51,260
Speaker 4: So my family were my church leaders. And we labored.

730
00:35:51,460 --> 00:35:52,180
Speaker 3: I preached there.

731
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,860
Speaker 4: I was involved in various forms of leadership, not as

732
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,219
Speaker 4: an official elder or something, but I helped lead the

733
00:35:59,260 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 4: youth group for a while.

734
00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:02,590
Speaker 3: I've done some teaching involved.

735
00:36:02,710 --> 00:36:05,210
Speaker 4: And in the last few years, the rug was just

736
00:36:06,010 --> 00:36:08,969
Speaker 4: pulled out from under our feet with some teachings that

737
00:36:08,989 --> 00:36:09,290
Speaker 4: I heard.

738
00:36:09,310 --> 00:36:12,270
Speaker 3: And I thought, hey, that sounds a little confusing. I

739
00:36:12,290 --> 00:36:12,609
Speaker 3: don't know.

740
00:36:12,650 --> 00:36:14,450
Speaker 4: What do you mean by that? And I began to

741
00:36:14,570 --> 00:36:19,100
Speaker 4: ask questions. And the minute I asked questions, I got...

742
00:36:19,989 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 4: pushed out and excommunicated faster than you could possibly believe.

743
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,899
Speaker 4: And I kept appealing like, well, I don't understand what's

744
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,610
Speaker 4: going on. And that's where the connection with Bill Gothard.

745
00:36:33,650 --> 00:36:36,090
Speaker 4: As I started reading back and finding out these various

746
00:36:36,130 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 4: forms of authority and high control group dynamics and various things,

747
00:36:43,860 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 4: I read Alan Rick Ross's book on cult and things

748
00:36:49,620 --> 00:36:51,930
Speaker 4: like that, understanding where some of this stuff comes from,

749
00:36:51,969 --> 00:36:55,150
Speaker 4: the man of God model, and don't question authority. And

750
00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:58,890
Speaker 4: if you question your authority figure, you're questioning God. I

751
00:36:58,950 --> 00:37:02,650
Speaker 4: kept appealing. I wrote theological papers. I kept saying, I

752
00:37:02,910 --> 00:37:06,469
Speaker 4: don't understand what's going on here. And as it ended up,

753
00:37:07,310 --> 00:37:10,720
Speaker 4: I appealed. We had 23 elders in between the various

754
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,859
Speaker 4: churches that I appealed to, all in one thing. And

755
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 4: we just got blacklisted, ostracized, lied about, slandered. They insinuated

756
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,340
Speaker 4: publicly several times that we were being used by the

757
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 4: devil and that the devil was using us to bring division.

758
00:37:30,900 --> 00:37:34,340
Speaker 4: And I had never gone public about this. This is

759
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 4: literally the second interview I've ever talked about in public.

760
00:37:36,340 --> 00:37:39,050
Speaker 4: This has been for over two years. I wrote a

761
00:37:39,050 --> 00:37:42,049
Speaker 4: theological paper two years ago that is yet to be

762
00:37:42,150 --> 00:37:43,130
Speaker 4: answered besides to say.

763
00:37:43,170 --> 00:37:45,049
Speaker 3: We don't teach any of this. And I said, yes,

764
00:37:45,090 --> 00:37:45,350
Speaker 3: you do.

765
00:37:45,390 --> 00:37:49,149
Speaker 4: And I kept saying, but what do these things mean?

766
00:37:49,150 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 4: 25 of their own quotes from their own foundation course.

767
00:37:54,260 --> 00:37:55,940
Speaker 4: But what do these quotes mean? And they said, we

768
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,310
Speaker 4: don't teach that. Never got answers for it. Recently, I

769
00:38:00,370 --> 00:38:06,570
Speaker 4: discovered from a whistleblower elder who eventually realized that I

770
00:38:06,610 --> 00:38:07,690
Speaker 4: was right and they are.

771
00:38:07,590 --> 00:38:08,450
Speaker 3: Teaching these things.

772
00:38:09,290 --> 00:38:12,060
Speaker 4: He gave me a paper that the lead guy, who

773
00:38:12,180 --> 00:38:17,180
Speaker 4: he would call himself an apostle basically, wrote a theological

774
00:38:17,219 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 4: paper that they kept in secret 15 months ago. saying

775
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,420
Speaker 4: that he does teach the things that I wrote and

776
00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 4: worse and far greater than I claimed.

777
00:38:27,180 --> 00:38:28,649
Speaker 3: He said, they kept this from you.

778
00:38:29,550 --> 00:38:32,890
Speaker 4: And the amount of pain, and so let me just

779
00:38:32,930 --> 00:38:34,810
Speaker 4: say this, it's not just that you're depressed.

780
00:38:35,250 --> 00:38:37,810
Speaker 3: It's not just that you're angry. It's that you're confused.

781
00:38:37,950 --> 00:38:41,130
Speaker 4: It's that you're, it's the, I know these men and

782
00:38:41,150 --> 00:38:43,110
Speaker 4: I know they love God and I know they wouldn't

783
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:44,049
Speaker 4: lie about me.

784
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 3: Am I doing something wrong?

785
00:38:47,030 --> 00:38:49,009
Speaker 4: I know these men and I know that they would

786
00:38:49,050 --> 00:38:53,030
Speaker 4: never not say that they teach these, these, this doctrine.

787
00:38:53,070 --> 00:38:55,850
Speaker 4: I know they wouldn't do that. And so am I

788
00:38:55,910 --> 00:38:58,029
Speaker 4: being used by the devil? Maybe they're right. Maybe I

789
00:38:58,150 --> 00:39:00,270
Speaker 4: am under some, you know, it's like, it's all these

790
00:39:00,350 --> 00:39:04,109
Speaker 4: mind games and you end up breaking with reality.

791
00:39:04,230 --> 00:39:05,590
Speaker 3: And I appealed to my family.

792
00:39:05,610 --> 00:39:08,010
Speaker 4: I appealed to the elders, but will you please talk

793
00:39:08,070 --> 00:39:10,530
Speaker 4: to me and explain to me why I'm being treated

794
00:39:10,590 --> 00:39:13,509
Speaker 4: like this? Why my wife is being treated like this.

795
00:39:13,570 --> 00:39:16,910
Speaker 4: I mean, this is, My wife's dad, who started the church,

796
00:39:16,969 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 4: he's still an elder. I'm like, why are you doing

797
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 4: this to your daughter and your own kids? I do

798
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,890
Speaker 4: not understand. You can't keep going and not telling what

799
00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 4: you believe about authority, doctrine, and practice. to the people

800
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 4: in your church. That is a really evil thing to do.

801
00:39:34,219 --> 00:39:37,689
Speaker 4: So this went on for two years and it's been

802
00:39:37,850 --> 00:39:41,190
Speaker 4: so incredibly painful. I had a break with reality and

803
00:39:41,230 --> 00:39:45,380
Speaker 4: I had to call a counselor. And for anybody listening,

804
00:39:46,260 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 4: if you're like me, you probably think, you probably, if

805
00:39:48,500 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 4: you've ever called a counselor, or maybe you didn't because

806
00:39:50,820 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 4: you're like me, and you're like, no, only girls do that.

807
00:39:54,900 --> 00:39:56,939
Speaker 3: Only people that are really messed up do that.

808
00:39:57,060 --> 00:39:59,700
Speaker 4: And all of a sudden, that man side of you,

809
00:40:00,340 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 4: I can handle my own problems. You should be through

810
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,340
Speaker 4: this now. You're a disciple. You've been walking with God

811
00:40:07,260 --> 00:40:09,930
Speaker 4: for 40 years. You shouldn't be going through this. And

812
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,450
Speaker 4: all of that came in and I finally was like,

813
00:40:12,610 --> 00:40:14,770
Speaker 4: I'm not okay.

814
00:40:15,010 --> 00:40:15,629
Speaker 3: I need help.

815
00:40:16,350 --> 00:40:18,450
Speaker 4: And then I was really mad at myself that I

816
00:40:18,489 --> 00:40:20,530
Speaker 4: didn't call somebody a year earlier.

817
00:40:20,590 --> 00:40:21,290
Speaker 3: I should have.

818
00:40:21,830 --> 00:40:24,820
Speaker 4: And so I only say that to encourage anybody watching.

819
00:40:25,300 --> 00:40:27,980
Speaker 4: If you're not doing good, it is a wonderful thing

820
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,339
Speaker 4: to call somebody for help. That is not a sign

821
00:40:30,380 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 4: of weakness. It's wonderful.

822
00:40:31,780 --> 00:40:32,540
Speaker 3: Call somebody.

823
00:40:33,100 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 4: And so I will just end it here because I

824
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,730
Speaker 4: know that's very heavy for a lot of people. It

825
00:40:38,770 --> 00:40:41,870
Speaker 4: has changed me in a lot of ways, and I

826
00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:44,950
Speaker 4: have come through it now. I'm doing better now than

827
00:40:44,989 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 4: I've done in years, and I've learned a lot through it,

828
00:40:48,780 --> 00:40:53,069
Speaker 4: and I have recaptured– The joy of the Lord, I

829
00:40:53,130 --> 00:40:57,510
Speaker 4: see reality clearly. I'm not hateful towards the people that

830
00:40:57,530 --> 00:41:00,819
Speaker 4: were there, but we've had to say some very hard

831
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 4: things and done some hard things. There is life after

832
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,620
Speaker 4: the storm, and I have found it in going, okay,

833
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 4: I need Christ now. every single day or I'm not

834
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,930
Speaker 4: going to make it. And I need to lean on

835
00:41:14,969 --> 00:41:20,029
Speaker 4: him every single day because I am so needy. And

836
00:41:20,130 --> 00:41:22,390
Speaker 4: one of the wonderful things I can, I can just

837
00:41:22,430 --> 00:41:26,069
Speaker 4: say about that is I was always so needy and

838
00:41:26,090 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 4: I didn't realize it.

839
00:41:28,130 --> 00:41:29,649
Speaker 3: Do you know what I'm saying? It's given me more

840
00:41:29,670 --> 00:41:31,790
Speaker 3: of an understanding of who I actually am. Yes.

841
00:41:31,930 --> 00:41:33,710
Speaker 4: If you don't have Christ every day, you're not going

842
00:41:33,730 --> 00:41:35,890
Speaker 4: to make it. And that is the right place to

843
00:41:35,950 --> 00:41:37,340
Speaker 4: be is grace is sufficient.

844
00:41:37,590 --> 00:41:39,940
Speaker 3: Hmm. You know, and that's been really good for me.

845
00:41:40,260 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 1: Of course.

846
00:41:40,860 --> 00:41:43,750
Speaker 2: Well, I want to say I so appreciate your vulnerability

847
00:41:44,130 --> 00:41:47,049
Speaker 2: and being willing to, again, be so authentic and just

848
00:41:47,090 --> 00:41:50,730
Speaker 2: share how difficult things have been. I can only imagine, right,

849
00:41:50,770 --> 00:41:54,220
Speaker 2: a lot of the different emotions and the conflicting confusion

850
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 2: that you've gone through, that betrayal, potentially even resurfacing back

851
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,020
Speaker 2: from childhood. I mean, a lot of different things probably

852
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,410
Speaker 2: coming up. And then I think of this idea, though, of,

853
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,430
Speaker 2: This cry for dependence, what you're saying on God, where

854
00:42:08,450 --> 00:42:10,350
Speaker 2: it's like we come to the end of our rope

855
00:42:10,390 --> 00:42:13,150
Speaker 2: at times, and that's where we run into his. And

856
00:42:13,190 --> 00:42:17,710
Speaker 2: we recognize that, man, sometimes God allows us to hit

857
00:42:17,790 --> 00:42:21,620
Speaker 2: rock bottom to realize he is the rock at the bottom.

858
00:42:22,180 --> 00:42:24,660
Speaker 2: That's where we can begin to rebuild after the storm

859
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 2: to begin with. And I think of this song, Lift

860
00:42:27,300 --> 00:42:30,790
Speaker 2: Me Up, on this new EP. Because that's real. Like

861
00:42:30,830 --> 00:42:33,810
Speaker 2: that's raw. It's like, God, I need you to lift

862
00:42:33,870 --> 00:42:36,890
Speaker 2: me up. Honest lament to God, right? Crying out to God.

863
00:42:36,910 --> 00:42:39,140
Speaker 2: I think a scream, all of these different things being real,

864
00:42:39,469 --> 00:42:43,060
Speaker 2: but then God, I need you now more than ever.

865
00:42:43,219 --> 00:42:45,980
Speaker 2: And I'm so appreciative as counselors. We're appreciative that you

866
00:42:46,020 --> 00:42:49,980
Speaker 2: can mix ministry and mental health care and get the

867
00:42:50,020 --> 00:42:53,290
Speaker 2: help and the resources necessary. Speak to the song, lift

868
00:42:53,330 --> 00:42:55,930
Speaker 2: me up though. And just where did that come from

869
00:42:55,989 --> 00:42:56,970
Speaker 2: inside of you?

870
00:42:57,630 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 4: Lift me up was written. in the middle of this.

871
00:43:00,739 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 4: So I told you it's been, it's been two years.

872
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,339
Speaker 4: This was literally right in the middle. And I was

873
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:11,860
Speaker 4: just like, I just felt like I didn't, I mean, again,

874
00:43:11,910 --> 00:43:13,290
Speaker 4: just being real and authentic.

875
00:43:13,489 --> 00:43:16,850
Speaker 3: I was like, I don't recognize myself. I am so.

876
00:43:16,830 --> 00:43:21,810
Speaker 4: Angry and I am so wrathful and I am so depressed.

877
00:43:22,770 --> 00:43:25,590
Speaker 4: And I just want to put my fist through a

878
00:43:25,630 --> 00:43:30,010
Speaker 4: wall and, And I want to, I just, you know,

879
00:43:30,030 --> 00:43:34,010
Speaker 4: I just can't believe, I remember thinking so many times,

880
00:43:34,070 --> 00:43:36,989
Speaker 4: my pagan friends would never treat me like I'm being

881
00:43:37,050 --> 00:43:41,270
Speaker 4: treated from the church I've attended for 30 years, my

882
00:43:41,330 --> 00:43:45,950
Speaker 4: best friends. I do not understand what's going on. And

883
00:43:46,010 --> 00:43:53,870
Speaker 4: Lift Me Up was definitely written from that, like, like,

884
00:43:53,969 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 4: I just need you to lift me up. But, but,

885
00:43:56,750 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 4: It's funny because within that song, Lift Me Up, there's

886
00:43:59,660 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 4: this push and pull. There is the I'm not going

887
00:44:01,980 --> 00:44:04,460
Speaker 4: to make it, but then you see the defiance. There

888
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,300
Speaker 4: are defiant lyrics in there like not going to die tonight,

889
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,009
Speaker 4: going to rise above it. So I was in this

890
00:44:10,050 --> 00:44:13,490
Speaker 4: push and pull because I believe the word of God

891
00:44:14,210 --> 00:44:19,250
Speaker 4: and I'm– I'm, I'm a big faith guy.

892
00:44:19,270 --> 00:44:21,609
Speaker 3: Um, you know, I was saying about word of faith early.

893
00:44:21,660 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 4: I'm not word of faith in case anybody cares about

894
00:44:24,020 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 4: my doctrine, but I'm a faith guy. You know, um,

895
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,540
Speaker 4: you want to go charismatic. I'm as charismatic as they come.

896
00:44:31,060 --> 00:44:32,779
Speaker 4: And I am not going to let the devil get

897
00:44:32,820 --> 00:44:35,410
Speaker 4: me down. I'm walking in the power of the Holy spirit.

898
00:44:35,469 --> 00:44:38,109
Speaker 4: I believe all that stuff. And so I'm like, I'm

899
00:44:38,150 --> 00:44:41,350
Speaker 4: not giving up. And then 10 minutes later, I'm like,

900
00:44:41,430 --> 00:44:44,169
Speaker 4: why do I feel like this? I, I, I don't

901
00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:47,610
Speaker 4: know how to live anymore. I began feeling like, uh,

902
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,220
Speaker 4: I haven't said this in any interviews. So I began

903
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 4: feeling like I don't even know how to pray. I

904
00:44:54,380 --> 00:44:56,950
Speaker 4: literally don't know how to pray because I don't know

905
00:44:57,010 --> 00:44:59,670
Speaker 4: what was real and what wasn't. Again, I never gave

906
00:44:59,710 --> 00:45:02,109
Speaker 4: up on Christ, never gave up on the Bible, but

907
00:45:02,210 --> 00:45:04,430
Speaker 4: I don't, maybe I wasn't even praying right.

908
00:45:04,610 --> 00:45:07,210
Speaker 3: And I had to go back to the beginning.

909
00:45:08,370 --> 00:45:10,410
Speaker 4: And at the end of this, I want to say

910
00:45:10,450 --> 00:45:13,750
Speaker 4: something about deconstruction, but I had to go back to

911
00:45:13,790 --> 00:45:16,610
Speaker 4: the beginning and I just started saying, okay, God, I

912
00:45:16,700 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 4: am so confused.

913
00:45:19,110 --> 00:45:20,830
Speaker 3: I'm not going to pray any of my own thoughts.

914
00:45:21,190 --> 00:45:25,469
Speaker 4: I am just going to pray historical church prayers, the

915
00:45:25,530 --> 00:45:29,150
Speaker 4: prayers of the saints gone before us, whether those are

916
00:45:29,170 --> 00:45:33,190
Speaker 4: on the Reformed tradition or the Eastern Orthodox tradition or

917
00:45:33,270 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 4: the Catholic tradition, the early fathers, the early church fathers.

918
00:45:36,060 --> 00:45:36,700
Speaker 3: And the creeds.

919
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,540
Speaker 4: And I would just pray these things. And it got

920
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 4: so bad during the time that I wrote Lift Me Up.

921
00:45:43,380 --> 00:45:47,180
Speaker 4: I told my wife, I just was like, I.

922
00:45:47,180 --> 00:45:49,740
Speaker 3: Am going crazy. I am literally losing my mind.

923
00:45:50,100 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 4: And I wake up in the morning and I have

924
00:45:53,660 --> 00:45:55,860
Speaker 4: my list of prayers and I pray my list of

925
00:45:55,900 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 4: prayers and then I hit my timer for 59 minutes.

926
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,240
Speaker 4: I'm getting emotional to think about it. And after 59 minutes,

927
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,899
Speaker 4: my timer goes off and I got to say those

928
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,140
Speaker 4: prayers again because I felt like an addict, you know,

929
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 4: and I actually had some prayers for addiction in there

930
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 4: too because I felt like.

931
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,820
Speaker 3: I'm not even asking grace for the day. I'm asking

932
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:19,940
Speaker 3: grace for the hour.

933
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,029
Speaker 4: And if I do not get grace for the hour,

934
00:46:23,050 --> 00:46:27,090
Speaker 4: I might physically hurt somebody. I literally felt like I

935
00:46:27,110 --> 00:46:29,069
Speaker 4: was losing my mind. I'm going to hurt somebody. I'm

936
00:46:29,090 --> 00:46:30,310
Speaker 4: going to yell at my kids.

937
00:46:31,270 --> 00:46:36,110
Speaker 3: I am no good. And Jesus, can you meet me.

938
00:46:36,070 --> 00:46:40,310
Speaker 4: For this hour and help me not to condemn those

939
00:46:40,370 --> 00:46:43,810
Speaker 4: who have wronged me? One of the prayers from St.

940
00:46:43,830 --> 00:46:48,339
Speaker 4: Christus says, help give me the grace to see the

941
00:46:48,450 --> 00:46:50,870
Speaker 4: sin in my own life and not condemn my brother

942
00:46:51,870 --> 00:46:53,370
Speaker 4: every hour on the hour.

943
00:46:53,530 --> 00:46:55,770
Speaker 3: And God would meet me. And after I would pray,

944
00:46:55,810 --> 00:46:59,170
Speaker 3: I would be like, I can breathe again. Set the alarm.

945
00:47:00,350 --> 00:47:01,330
Speaker 3: This went on for months.

946
00:47:01,790 --> 00:47:03,489
Speaker 4: And I would have to pray every hour on the

947
00:47:03,530 --> 00:47:06,670
Speaker 4: hour and every hour Christ would meet me.

948
00:47:07,410 --> 00:47:09,009
Speaker 3: And that went on for months until I.

949
00:47:09,010 --> 00:47:11,890
Speaker 4: Finally just broke through. And I remember when I broke through,

950
00:47:11,910 --> 00:47:15,090
Speaker 4: I told Corey, I was like, I broke through. And

951
00:47:15,130 --> 00:47:17,140
Speaker 4: another thing happened when I broke through. I know I'm

952
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,140
Speaker 4: making this interview really long. I was experiencing a lot

953
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,420
Speaker 4: of physical ailments as well. And I was just like,

954
00:47:24,020 --> 00:47:26,580
Speaker 4: my body hurts all the time. My knees are killing

955
00:47:26,620 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 4: my feet. I can hardly walk in the morning. My

956
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 4: feet hurt so bad. And I'm an athletic person, so

957
00:47:32,580 --> 00:47:35,370
Speaker 4: I work out a lot. I couldn't work out. Working

958
00:47:35,430 --> 00:47:38,610
Speaker 4: out was killing me. I was jogging three miles, and

959
00:47:39,070 --> 00:47:40,850
Speaker 4: I would be in pain for three days after I

960
00:47:40,890 --> 00:47:43,290
Speaker 4: jogged for three miles. And I was just like, I'm

961
00:47:43,370 --> 00:47:48,110
Speaker 4: falling apart, Lord. And when I finally broke through, all

962
00:47:48,130 --> 00:47:53,070
Speaker 4: of a sudden, my feet stopped hurting. My knees stopped hurting.

963
00:47:53,090 --> 00:47:56,870
Speaker 4: And so here I am three months later, and I

964
00:47:56,910 --> 00:48:00,220
Speaker 4: run six miles a day, six days a week now.

965
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 3: No pain. It was so affecting me. It affected my body.

966
00:48:05,700 --> 00:48:10,410
Speaker 4: My counselor's like, people that leave high control groups, they

967
00:48:10,469 --> 00:48:11,690
Speaker 4: say this stuff happens all the time.

968
00:48:11,710 --> 00:48:14,790
Speaker 3: You can't explain it. That's how bad it got for me.

969
00:48:15,090 --> 00:48:16,750
Speaker 4: The last thing I just want to say, only because

970
00:48:17,650 --> 00:48:20,370
Speaker 4: in the past I have said some very hard things

971
00:48:20,410 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 4: about deconstruction, which I do stand by because I believe that,

972
00:48:25,780 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 4: but I do think one of the things God has

973
00:48:27,660 --> 00:48:30,569
Speaker 4: done in this it has made me a much more

974
00:48:30,630 --> 00:48:32,270
Speaker 4: merciful person towards.

975
00:48:32,050 --> 00:48:32,850
Speaker 3: People who suffer.

976
00:48:33,770 --> 00:48:36,850
Speaker 4: And in the past, I have always given the caveat, look,

977
00:48:37,250 --> 00:48:40,590
Speaker 4: some people do go through deconstruction because they've suffered church abuse.

978
00:48:40,630 --> 00:48:44,009
Speaker 4: That's real, not talking to those people. I'm talking to

979
00:48:44,050 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 4: this other thing. And I think that I would make

980
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:51,580
Speaker 4: that caveat much stronger and much louder. And I would

981
00:48:51,620 --> 00:48:54,660
Speaker 4: say to people, if you have deconstructed from your faith

982
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,460
Speaker 4: because you have been abused at church, suffer trauma at church,

983
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,779
Speaker 4: I would just say very loudly, as loudly as I can,

984
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:06,190
Speaker 4: I feel you. I desperately want you to stay in

985
00:49:06,230 --> 00:49:09,750
Speaker 4: the faith. If you've gone away from the faith totally,

986
00:49:09,930 --> 00:49:12,650
Speaker 4: I desperately want you to come back. If you're on the,

987
00:49:12,830 --> 00:49:15,989
Speaker 4: I'm deconstructed, I don't know what, oh, how I want

988
00:49:16,030 --> 00:49:18,030
Speaker 4: you to come back to the faith and to trust

989
00:49:18,070 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 4: that the word of God is true and his word never,

990
00:49:20,860 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 4: ever fails ever. But I also want you to hear

991
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 4: me saying that I know where you're coming from and

992
00:49:27,700 --> 00:49:32,540
Speaker 4: the things you're feeling are legitimate. They're absolutely legitimate. I

993
00:49:32,580 --> 00:49:36,219
Speaker 4: know it personally now, but do not give up on

994
00:49:36,260 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 4: Christ and do not give up on his word because

995
00:49:38,739 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 4: he will never fail you to make it through. It

996
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,450
Speaker 4: just might take, it might take a minute.

997
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,890
Speaker 1: John, I've always believed this. If you have any value

998
00:49:45,930 --> 00:49:50,370
Speaker 1: to God, all hell will be against you. He wants

999
00:49:50,410 --> 00:49:53,650
Speaker 1: you to believe that God's not there for you and

1000
00:49:53,690 --> 00:49:57,250
Speaker 1: God doesn't care that he doesn't see you. You know that,

1001
00:49:57,290 --> 00:50:01,690
Speaker 1: that he's not in your story. And that's what we've

1002
00:50:01,730 --> 00:50:06,180
Speaker 1: got to hold on to. When people come, On the

1003
00:50:06,219 --> 00:50:09,500
Speaker 1: other side, there are two types of people, those who

1004
00:50:09,540 --> 00:50:14,750
Speaker 1: are just surviving and those who probably are healing. Two

1005
00:50:14,770 --> 00:50:15,430
Speaker 1: different worlds.

1006
00:50:15,670 --> 00:50:15,970
Speaker 3: Right.

1007
00:50:18,430 --> 00:50:22,130
Speaker 1: The healing journey for you. What have you learned now

1008
00:50:22,910 --> 00:50:26,910
Speaker 1: in and through it all about God? When you sing

1009
00:50:27,070 --> 00:50:32,700
Speaker 1: of him, what's the song in your heart?

1010
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:33,979
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes.

1011
00:50:34,690 --> 00:50:36,790
Speaker 4: Man, what a great question. And this would be my

1012
00:50:36,830 --> 00:50:41,950
Speaker 4: favorite part of the interview. Because, I mean, Christ has

1013
00:50:41,989 --> 00:50:46,370
Speaker 4: been sweet to me, but sweeter now than I knew.

1014
00:50:46,390 --> 00:50:50,430
Speaker 4: And isn't that why we're still here? That's why we're

1015
00:50:50,469 --> 00:50:52,969
Speaker 4: still here. He can become sweeter and sweeter. And I

1016
00:50:53,030 --> 00:50:57,370
Speaker 4: think that what it's meant for me is, I think it's,

1017
00:50:58,450 --> 00:51:02,900
Speaker 4: if I can just dip my toe into a theological perspective, framework.

1018
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,070
Speaker 4: I don't know if people watching care about those things

1019
00:51:05,140 --> 00:51:07,330
Speaker 4: exactly or not, but let's just say it like this.

1020
00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:14,370
Speaker 4: In theology, there's this thing called an over-realized eschatology. And

1021
00:51:14,550 --> 00:51:16,530
Speaker 4: all that that means, it's a big word, I know,

1022
00:51:16,570 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 4: but don't worry about the big word unless you care.

1023
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 4: All that it means is that we can sometimes try

1024
00:51:22,500 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 4: to pull the promises of the future reign of Christ

1025
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 4: into my life right now, meaning I will be healed.

1026
00:51:30,380 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 4: I will never thirst again. I will never be hungry again.

1027
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,890
Speaker 4: So that's a bit of the ultra-prosperity, the ultra-prosperity. the

1028
00:51:37,969 --> 00:51:39,989
Speaker 4: ultra healing, the ultra whatever. We're going to have the

1029
00:51:40,030 --> 00:51:44,489
Speaker 4: perfect world, utopian society. You're pulling these future things that

1030
00:51:44,530 --> 00:51:47,899
Speaker 4: we are only going to ever see in fullness when

1031
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,340
Speaker 4: Jesus comes back again. And we're living in that. And

1032
00:51:51,380 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 4: then it can cause us... There's a good way to

1033
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 4: be confident in the Lord, but there's also... oh man,

1034
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 4: you may have overstepped and you forgot that we are

1035
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 4: promised to suffer. And so I think what it is

1036
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:07,610
Speaker 4: for me is realizing I can be confident in the Lord.

1037
00:52:07,630 --> 00:52:10,609
Speaker 4: I can be confident that when I am weak, He's

1038
00:52:10,630 --> 00:52:12,090
Speaker 4: going to show Himself strong.

1039
00:52:12,130 --> 00:52:13,430
Speaker 3: But I also know.

1040
00:52:13,350 --> 00:52:16,070
Speaker 4: Who I am, that I am a needy beggar of

1041
00:52:16,130 --> 00:52:18,830
Speaker 4: grace every day. I think it's made me realize more

1042
00:52:18,890 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 4: who I am, that I am a needy, absolutely beggar

1043
00:52:23,420 --> 00:52:26,350
Speaker 4: of grace. And if I don't get it, I am

1044
00:52:26,430 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 4: not going to make it. And so that gives you,

1045
00:52:28,739 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 4: I think, a better picture of humility. I think in

1046
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,029
Speaker 4: a really positive way, when you read the church fathers,

1047
00:52:41,250 --> 00:52:44,610
Speaker 4: the church fathers do not write in this very boastful

1048
00:52:44,650 --> 00:52:47,649
Speaker 4: way about how victorious they are and how amazing. They

1049
00:52:47,690 --> 00:52:52,660
Speaker 4: don't write like that. They write like, even in their prayers,

1050
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:58,190
Speaker 4: they pray, remember me in paradise. As if they're the

1051
00:52:58,230 --> 00:53:03,410
Speaker 4: thief on the cross, Jesus, will you remember me in paradise?

1052
00:53:03,430 --> 00:53:04,810
Speaker 3: You're the hope of glory.

1053
00:53:04,870 --> 00:53:08,450
Speaker 4: They're not bragging about who they are in Jesus constantly.

1054
00:53:08,530 --> 00:53:14,549
Speaker 4: That has become very real to me. And also what

1055
00:53:14,570 --> 00:53:17,540
Speaker 4: it's done is made me realize if I'm having a

1056
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,660
Speaker 4: Christian for a very long time, I know the Bible

1057
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,259
Speaker 4: fairly well. I'm not a theologian, but I'm a novice theologian,

1058
00:53:24,300 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 4: I think is probably fair to say. And if I

1059
00:53:28,380 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 4: can wrestle like this, then I imagine there's a lot

1060
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 4: of people that don't know what I even know. How

1061
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,489
Speaker 4: hard is this going to be for them? And it

1062
00:53:39,550 --> 00:53:43,649
Speaker 4: has caused me to become a very merciful person. Last week,

1063
00:53:43,690 --> 00:53:48,210
Speaker 4: a friend called me from the rock market. He's a

1064
00:53:48,670 --> 00:53:52,130
Speaker 4: rock and roll musician. And he said, hey, I'm calling

1065
00:53:52,150 --> 00:53:54,210
Speaker 4: you because I know you're a brother. I know you're

1066
00:53:54,230 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 4: a Christian. And he said, I am going into rehab.

1067
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,420
Speaker 4: He said, I am really embarrassed, but I know that

1068
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 4: you're somebody that will pray for me. And I'm really

1069
00:54:03,540 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 4: embarrassed to tell you I'm going to rehab. And I said,

1070
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:08,020
Speaker 4: why are you embarrassed?

1071
00:54:08,940 --> 00:54:09,670
Speaker 3: Let's do it.

1072
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,739
Speaker 4: You know what I mean? There's no need to be embarrassed.

1073
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:14,910
Speaker 4: I'm not going to be kicking you when you're down.

1074
00:54:14,930 --> 00:54:17,670
Speaker 4: And I think it makes you a merciful person because

1075
00:54:17,770 --> 00:54:20,650
Speaker 4: I know I am the least in the kingdom of God.

1076
00:54:20,670 --> 00:54:22,509
Speaker 4: So I think that that's what it has done for

1077
00:54:22,550 --> 00:54:26,930
Speaker 4: me is Jesus has become sweeter. It's what John the

1078
00:54:26,969 --> 00:54:30,230
Speaker 4: Baptist said. I have decreased in my own vision. He

1079
00:54:30,270 --> 00:54:30,930
Speaker 4: has increased.

1080
00:54:31,210 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 1: I think probably, John, there comes a place in every

1081
00:54:37,219 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: person's journey where they do business with God. And it's

1082
00:54:44,660 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 1: like either I believe or I don't.

1083
00:54:47,620 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 3: Yes.

1084
00:54:48,550 --> 00:54:52,730
Speaker 1: And the comfort of knowing that he sees us. You

1085
00:54:52,750 --> 00:54:53,129
Speaker 1: know that?

1086
00:54:53,430 --> 00:54:54,209
Speaker 3: Amen. Yeah.

1087
00:54:54,690 --> 00:54:56,450
Speaker 1: And we do hold on to the blessed hope. Let

1088
00:54:56,489 --> 00:54:58,450
Speaker 1: not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe

1089
00:54:58,489 --> 00:54:59,109
Speaker 1: also in me.

1090
00:55:00,090 --> 00:55:00,470
Speaker 3: Amen.

1091
00:55:00,630 --> 00:55:01,450
Speaker 1: I will come again.

1092
00:55:01,469 --> 00:55:01,969
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1093
00:55:02,270 --> 00:55:04,110
Speaker 1: And I say unto myself that where I am there,

1094
00:55:04,190 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: you may be also. Until then, you know, keep on

1095
00:55:09,820 --> 00:55:13,660
Speaker 1: keeping on. And we stand. And the best way to

1096
00:55:13,700 --> 00:55:16,359
Speaker 1: do it? It's together. Hell loves to.

1097
00:55:16,340 --> 00:55:17,100
Speaker 3: Get us alone.

1098
00:55:18,020 --> 00:55:21,609
Speaker 1: We need a band of brothers. We need friends for

1099
00:55:21,620 --> 00:55:25,550
Speaker 1: the fire that we hone up to. And in a

1100
00:55:25,590 --> 00:55:27,750
Speaker 1: lot of ways, I think that, let's go back to

1101
00:55:27,790 --> 00:55:32,090
Speaker 1: the music thing. When you begin to bring people into

1102
00:55:32,820 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 1: a message, you're identifying together. You hear what I'm saying?

1103
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 1: And we don't stay there. That's right.

1104
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:41,540
Speaker 2: We stay.

1105
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:44,860
Speaker 1: Hold on to our hope, our blessed hope, a surety

1106
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:49,319
Speaker 1: of things to come, that in him we are more

1107
00:55:49,340 --> 00:55:52,270
Speaker 1: than conquerors through him that loved us. And there's nothing

1108
00:55:52,290 --> 00:55:55,910
Speaker 1: that will separate us from the love of God. For

1109
00:55:55,969 --> 00:55:58,170
Speaker 1: our raglan, that the present suffering that we're going through

1110
00:55:58,190 --> 00:56:00,489
Speaker 1: is nothing to be compared with the glory that one

1111
00:56:00,550 --> 00:56:05,109
Speaker 1: day will be revealed in us. And we celebrate that.

1112
00:56:05,270 --> 00:56:07,390
Speaker 1: We celebrate that. That's what we're doing here together. We're

1113
00:56:07,410 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: talking as brothers about this blessed hope, because apart from it,

1114
00:56:12,010 --> 00:56:15,799
Speaker 1: This is a dark place. This and all hell is

1115
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:20,859
Speaker 1: working to dilute, bring chaos and sanity to all this stuff.

1116
00:56:20,900 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 1: And when you were talking about that journey, I was

1117
00:56:23,860 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: feeling the weight of the world of, let me take

1118
00:56:26,580 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 1: Cooper out. You know, let's take him out. Peter, he

1119
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:34,620
Speaker 1: would sift you as wheat if he could get his

1120
00:56:34,660 --> 00:56:35,430
Speaker 1: hands on you.

1121
00:56:35,610 --> 00:56:38,230
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

1122
00:56:38,690 --> 00:56:39,390
Speaker 1: You hear what I'm saying?

1123
00:56:39,410 --> 00:56:43,299
Speaker 3: I do. Not consider that, you know. God be with us.

1124
00:56:44,260 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 1: Help us.

1125
00:56:45,180 --> 00:56:45,379
Speaker 4: Yes.

1126
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 1: Let's press in. You heard what I'm saying?

1127
00:56:47,660 --> 00:56:48,270
Speaker 3: That's it.

1128
00:56:48,590 --> 00:56:50,650
Speaker 2: I just believe three of the most dangerous words a

1129
00:56:50,690 --> 00:56:54,190
Speaker 2: man could ever say, or I got this. When you

1130
00:56:54,210 --> 00:56:56,969
Speaker 2: try to do life alone, especially when you're trying to

1131
00:56:57,050 --> 00:57:01,710
Speaker 2: navigate the murky waters, the challenging times again, hell wants

1132
00:57:01,770 --> 00:57:05,980
Speaker 2: to get you alone. Isolation is a trap. Finding people

1133
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 2: asking for help. Like that's a great first step. But

1134
00:57:09,060 --> 00:57:10,819
Speaker 2: I want to wrap up our time together, John, this way.

1135
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,299
Speaker 2: I know there's somebody out there listening today who is

1136
00:57:15,310 --> 00:57:19,270
Speaker 2: depleted by life, man. They're in the storm. They're in

1137
00:57:19,310 --> 00:57:22,530
Speaker 2: a challenging time. Their boat feels like it's sinking, John.

1138
00:57:22,970 --> 00:57:25,550
Speaker 2: And they're starting to question themselves. They're starting to question

1139
00:57:25,570 --> 00:57:28,010
Speaker 2: their purpose. They're starting to question life. They're starting to

1140
00:57:28,050 --> 00:57:32,570
Speaker 2: question God. What's the final word of hope that you

1141
00:57:32,610 --> 00:57:35,169
Speaker 2: want to leave that person with today and you want

1142
00:57:35,210 --> 00:57:37,090
Speaker 2: them to hold on to in the midst of the

1143
00:57:37,130 --> 00:57:41,050
Speaker 2: storm and after the storm? as they step into a

1144
00:57:41,090 --> 00:57:43,570
Speaker 2: relationship with God and into the man or woman that

1145
00:57:43,590 --> 00:57:44,510
Speaker 2: he's called them to become.

1146
00:57:45,650 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. I'll tell you what, man.

1147
00:57:47,700 --> 00:57:51,300
Speaker 4: I'm going to grab my phone real fast because I

1148
00:57:51,300 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 4: have someone else's words that will be much better than mine.

1149
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,780
Speaker 4: I think I would first say to them, like, we

1150
00:57:58,820 --> 00:58:03,430
Speaker 4: don't want to make a False promises. We're not going

1151
00:58:03,450 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 4: to say something on here that's going to change it.

1152
00:58:05,330 --> 00:58:07,330
Speaker 4: And then all of a sudden life is perfect. And

1153
00:58:07,370 --> 00:58:11,230
Speaker 4: now in my experience, it can take a long time.

1154
00:58:11,710 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 4: All those scriptures that we see about being patient on

1155
00:58:15,180 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 4: the Lord, those who wait on the Lord, you will

1156
00:58:19,180 --> 00:58:21,780
Speaker 4: renew your strength, rise up on wings, all those things

1157
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 4: like that. it might just take a while. And sometimes

1158
00:58:25,180 --> 00:58:28,580
Speaker 4: it just takes a while of believing every day. And

1159
00:58:29,020 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 4: it took me much longer than I wanted. Here's a,

1160
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 4: this is one of my favorites.

1161
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:34,820
Speaker 3: St. Christus.

1162
00:58:35,820 --> 00:58:39,570
Speaker 4: He wrote this, let no one mourn his poverty for

1163
00:58:39,590 --> 00:58:43,050
Speaker 4: the kingdom shared by all has appeared. Let no one

1164
00:58:43,110 --> 00:58:46,830
Speaker 4: be well, his transgressions for forgiveness has shown forth from

1165
00:58:46,870 --> 00:58:49,810
Speaker 4: the tomb. Let no one fear death for the death

1166
00:58:49,850 --> 00:58:53,850
Speaker 4: of the savior has freed us. He, who was held

1167
00:58:53,930 --> 00:58:58,020
Speaker 4: fast by it, has annihilated it. Descending into hell, he

1168
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:02,660
Speaker 4: punished hell. He embittered it when it tasted of his flesh. Isaiah,

1169
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:06,650
Speaker 4: foretelling this, cried out, O Hades, you are embittered. Hell

1170
00:59:06,690 --> 00:59:09,390
Speaker 4: was embittered when it encountered thee in the lower regions.

1171
00:59:09,790 --> 00:59:10,050
Speaker 3: It was.

1172
00:59:17,430 --> 00:59:20,930
Speaker 4: It took earth and encountered heaven. It took what was

1173
00:59:21,030 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 4: seen and fell against what was not seen. Thou, O death,

1174
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:28,740
Speaker 4: where is thy sting? Hades, where is thy victory? Christ

1175
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 4: is risen and you are overthrown. Christ is risen and

1176
00:59:32,660 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 4: all the demons are fallen. Christ is risen and the

1177
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:39,750
Speaker 4: angels rejoice. Christ is risen and no one remains in

1178
00:59:39,790 --> 00:59:43,130
Speaker 4: the graves. For Christ has been raised up from the dead,

1179
00:59:43,150 --> 00:59:46,970
Speaker 4: the first fruit of those who had been asleep and

1180
00:59:47,010 --> 00:59:49,250
Speaker 4: death to him be the glory and power unto ages

1181
00:59:49,310 --> 00:59:49,770
Speaker 4: of ages.

1182
00:59:50,470 --> 00:59:53,810
Speaker 3: I would just say the blessed hope we're talking about.

1183
00:59:53,850 --> 00:59:58,950
Speaker 3: That's it. He is alive. The devil is defeated. The

1184
00:59:58,990 --> 01:00:00,150
Speaker 3: demons are defeated.

1185
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 4: Our job now is to try to hold on to

1186
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 4: that hope as we make the journey day after day after.

1187
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:13,439
Speaker 3: Day, holding onto that hope. Christ will meet you.

1188
01:00:13,460 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 4: I know that in my life, he will meet you

1189
01:00:17,390 --> 01:00:20,820
Speaker 4: read the Bible, quote the Bible, stand on the Bible.

1190
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 4: His word is true. And that's what I learned in

1191
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 4: my life. Just quote the Bible. His word is true.

1192
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:30,790
Speaker 4: And eventually you will make it out of that storm. Yes.

1193
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:34,000
Speaker 4: So I would just tell people, don't look for the

1194
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:38,170
Speaker 4: quick fix. Don't look for the shot to make you

1195
01:00:38,210 --> 01:00:40,970
Speaker 4: lose the weight. Everybody takes the shots now, or they

1196
01:00:41,010 --> 01:00:43,530
Speaker 4: take all this crazy stuff to lose the weight. It's like,

1197
01:00:43,710 --> 01:00:47,330
Speaker 4: all right, just stop eating the donuts and walk for

1198
01:00:47,370 --> 01:00:49,470
Speaker 4: a mile a day, and then maybe in a month

1199
01:00:49,490 --> 01:00:52,670
Speaker 4: you'll be able to walk for two miles. We're not

1200
01:00:52,690 --> 01:00:55,510
Speaker 4: looking for a quick fix. We're looking for a real fix.

1201
01:00:56,180 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 4: Jesus has overcome death. He has already paid the price.

1202
01:00:59,860 --> 01:01:02,100
Speaker 4: He is the King of Kings, and he will show

1203
01:01:02,140 --> 01:01:03,340
Speaker 4: himself strong in your life.

1204
01:01:03,420 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 2: It just may take a And the greatest definition for

1205
01:01:05,980 --> 01:01:10,870
Speaker 2: the word endurance I've ever heard is to suffer through patiently.

1206
01:01:11,690 --> 01:01:15,110
Speaker 2: Patience is not a passive process, right? I heard Tyler

1207
01:01:15,130 --> 01:01:18,330
Speaker 2: Staten recently say, a pastor, he said, why is waiting

1208
01:01:18,430 --> 01:01:21,890
Speaker 2: such an important part of the spiritual development or of

1209
01:01:21,930 --> 01:01:26,300
Speaker 2: the sanctification journey? Because waiting is where faith actually becomes necessary.

1210
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:30,500
Speaker 2: Don't give up on God. He hasn't given up on you.

1211
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,830
Speaker 2: And it's this concept of every single day, continue to

1212
01:01:33,890 --> 01:01:36,850
Speaker 2: lean in. Because as Jerry Falwell Sr. would say, there

1213
01:01:36,890 --> 01:01:39,710
Speaker 2: are three types of people. Those going into a storm,

1214
01:01:39,770 --> 01:01:41,550
Speaker 2: those in the midst of one, and those that just

1215
01:01:41,590 --> 01:01:43,510
Speaker 2: got out, but they're getting ready to go right back in.

1216
01:01:44,230 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 1: But the good news, my friend, is this.

1217
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 2: God's word never promised the absence of pain, but it

1218
01:01:49,140 --> 01:01:51,780
Speaker 2: promises his presence every step of the way. And he

1219
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 2: is the same God before, in the midst of, and

1220
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 2: after any storm. That gets thrown in your life. John,

1221
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 2: my friend, what a gift it's been spending some time

1222
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,850
Speaker 2: with you. I want to ask, obviously I know our

1223
01:02:03,930 --> 01:02:05,690
Speaker 2: audience can go to a lot of different places to

1224
01:02:05,750 --> 01:02:08,670
Speaker 2: find more out about John Cooper, but where would you

1225
01:02:08,710 --> 01:02:10,570
Speaker 2: give them as a one-stop shop that they can go

1226
01:02:10,590 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 2: to potentially even maybe pre-order the new EP coming.

1227
01:02:14,100 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 1: Out in October?

1228
01:02:15,570 --> 01:02:19,690
Speaker 4: I would say just go probably Instagram or Facebook. Skillet

1229
01:02:19,730 --> 01:02:24,450
Speaker 4: music is the tag skillet music. They're both updated, but

1230
01:02:25,050 --> 01:02:28,110
Speaker 4: you can find all the stuff. You can always see

1231
01:02:28,150 --> 01:02:30,890
Speaker 4: what we're doing on the road, which is generally silly

1232
01:02:31,090 --> 01:02:34,860
Speaker 4: and fun and sometimes meaningful as well. You know, just

1233
01:02:34,890 --> 01:02:38,260
Speaker 4: last week we met a family who their son died.

1234
01:02:38,380 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 4: Tragically was a huge skillet fan and they, you know,

1235
01:02:41,860 --> 01:02:44,330
Speaker 4: they buried their teenage son in his skillet shirt and,

1236
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 4: They said after the funeral, we all had a celebration

1237
01:02:47,620 --> 01:02:50,300
Speaker 4: of his life. We played three hours of skillet music.

1238
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 4: And I said, how come you didn't play a better

1239
01:02:53,020 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 4: band than us? I'll give you a list of better bands.

1240
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 4: But we put things like that so you can see

1241
01:02:58,900 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 4: the meaningful stuff. But it's usually the silly stuff and

1242
01:03:02,260 --> 01:03:05,410
Speaker 4: the fun stuff because we try to be real and

1243
01:03:05,510 --> 01:03:07,950
Speaker 4: be there for people. We do a lot for mental health.

1244
01:03:08,230 --> 01:03:10,430
Speaker 4: We always have done a lot for mental health, actually.

1245
01:03:11,050 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 4: And just encouraging people. not to give up on their lives.

1246
01:03:17,700 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 4: And we tell people, no matter who you are, that

1247
01:03:20,860 --> 01:03:24,020
Speaker 4: God created you in his image. And so you're important

1248
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 4: and you matter. And so go to Skillet Music, find

1249
01:03:27,940 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 4: out more than you'll ever want to.

1250
01:03:29,020 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 3: Know about Skillet.

1251
01:03:30,700 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 1: John, my friend, you're a gift.

1252
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:34,700
Speaker 2: Thank you for what God is continuing to do and

1253
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:37,110
Speaker 2: into your life and you being a faithful conduit of

1254
01:03:37,140 --> 01:03:40,950
Speaker 2: him channeling those messages to a broken and a hurting world.

1255
01:03:40,990 --> 01:03:41,870
Speaker 1: Thank you for your time today.

1256
01:03:41,930 --> 01:03:42,370
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1257
01:03:42,390 --> 01:03:43,310
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining the show.

1258
01:03:43,670 --> 01:03:43,940
Speaker 3: Got it.

1259
01:03:44,390 --> 01:03:46,550
Speaker 2: To our Build Different audience, I'm just reminded of Romans

1260
01:03:46,550 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 2: 5 that you too can glory in your suffering.

1261
01:03:48,910 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 4: Why?

1262
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:55,180
Speaker 2: Because suffering produces perseverance. Perseverance produces character and character produces hope.

1263
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:58,260
Speaker 2: You might be in a storm, but hold on to

1264
01:03:58,340 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 2: hope today.

1265
01:03:58,960 --> 01:03:59,180
Speaker 3: Why?

1266
01:03:59,220 --> 01:04:01,820
Speaker 2: Because hope is a person and hope has a name

1267
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,660
Speaker 2: and his name is Jesus. Thanks for joining us. We

1268
01:04:04,700 --> 01:04:05,590
Speaker 2: love being a part of your life.