1 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Jerry Boyer. Welcome to this edition of Meeting 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: of Minds podcast. My guest today is doctor Alan menden Hall, 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 1: up until recently business school dean and now with the 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: Capital Markets Initiative at the Heritage Foundation. Doctor menden Hall, 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: thanks for joining. 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 2: Us, Jerry, thanks for having me on the show. 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: Always a pleasure to talk with you on or off 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: the air. So a big specialization of yours has been ESG, 9 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: the problems with ESG environmental social governance, investing and proxy 10 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: voting and engagement. You write about that for Heritage and 11 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: you write about that for eighteen nineteen. What first got 12 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:50,279 Speaker 1: you onto this ESG thing? 13 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 2: Well, that's a really good question. So I'm a lawyer 14 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: with a PhD in English who had been an associate 15 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 2: dean of a law school before I went to a 16 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 2: business school. And when I got hired by Troy to 17 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 2: the business school, I had two hats. I was associate dean, 18 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 2: but I was also executive director of something called the 19 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: Manuel H. Johnson Center for Political Economy, which was a 20 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,919 Speaker 2: free market research center. And the center had been struggling 21 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: for the last few years at the time and really 22 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 2: didn't have an identity it didn't have a core issue 23 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 2: that it focused on. One month that did this issue, 24 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 2: the next month that did that issue. And I decided 25 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 2: that to revitalize it, we needed to focus on something. 26 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 2: And at that time, vivig Ramaswami had just written the 27 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 2: book Woke inc And I thought, this is interesting. This 28 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 2: is a subject that can sort of appeal across the 29 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 2: spectrum of the right. So libertarians can get on board 30 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: with this. Traditional conservatives could get on this, you know, 31 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: basically all kinds of varieties of conservatives can get onto this. 32 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: And I thought, this is kind of the sweet spot. 33 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 2: The only problem is I don't know a lot about 34 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 2: this subject, so I had to bone up on things 35 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: like ESG, and the deeper I dug into ESG in particular, 36 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 2: the more nefarious I realized it really was, and the 37 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 2: more shocked I was that I didn't know more about 38 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 2: this already, and why wasn't this on the top of 39 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 2: everybody's mind. I was shocked that this was such an 40 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: enormous issue that had involved global governance, that involved the 41 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 2: United Nations, that involved the European Union, and nobody was 42 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 2: talking about it, and yet so many of my conservative 43 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: friends were complaining about how corporations were going woke, but 44 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 2: they had no explanation for it. And all of a sudden, 45 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 2: I had all these explanations for it, and that was 46 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 2: eye opening. And so I just started going down a 47 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 2: rabbit hole after rabbit hole, and before I knew it, 48 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 2: I had become an expert. 49 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: So this was the missing piece. And I saw this 50 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: as someone observing. I heard conservatives complaining about corporate America, 51 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: and they had no idea what proxy voting is. They 52 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: had no idea what ESG wasuse. They maybe knew a 53 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: little bit about DEI and the government context. They didn't 54 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: know what a proxy advisory service was. They didn't know 55 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: about any of these things. It wasn't something that And 56 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: one of the things I noticed is, and I thought 57 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: this was really unfortunate. It immediately for many started to 58 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: devolve into a critique of capitalism itself. And I guess 59 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: there is that Strand and the conservative movement, the blood 60 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: and soil conservatives, who are always they feel like this 61 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: ambiguous relationship with economic freedom, and so they're always ready 62 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: to pull the plug on capitalism. And they could come 63 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: along and say, well, there's something wrong with capitalism. That's 64 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: why these corporations are going woke, not paying any attention 65 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: to the fact that there was an activist group and 66 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: institutions that worked together for two decades in order to 67 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: accomplish the capture of the companies. It's not the failure 68 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: of capitalism. It is it was designed. Somebody did it intentionally, and. 69 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 2: It was in many ways the negation of capitalism. If 70 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: you look at the way the large asset managers gained 71 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: their astronomical wealth, it was not through market activity. It 72 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: was actually through gaming the system. You would have, for example, 73 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: asset management firms that we all just shoot to the 74 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 2: Big three kind of off t of our tongue, but 75 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 2: they were investing government bonds and pension fund money and 76 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: things like that. They were investing government money on the 77 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: front end, and then in a loop, they were buying 78 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 2: shares of companies that were most likely to get subsidies 79 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: on the other side. So this is almost a brilliant 80 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 2: wealth extraction from the text payer. It's a brilliant business model, 81 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: but it's not the type of moral core that you 82 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 2: find with capitalism, which is based really on voluntary exchange. 83 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: Insofar as every market transaction happens when only both parties 84 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: believe they can benefit from commerce. Nobody is coerced to 85 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 2: do business with somebody else. If I value your thing, 86 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 2: you value you know, my thing, I can you know, 87 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 2: I can sell you the good that you're willing to 88 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 2: depart money with, and that's you know, that's a moral exchange. 89 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 2: And economic freedom is actually indispensable to more broadly political freedom. 90 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 2: And there's this narrative that you know, markets have done 91 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 2: all these bad things, or that corporations have done all 92 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: these bad things. But if you look at just the 93 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 2: steady growth of the federal government over several decades over 94 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: the past century, it is nothing but a continually growing system. 95 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 2: I can't I fail to see any example of when 96 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: you know, markets were this coercive thing and they they 97 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: ruled the political day. It's just not the case. I mean, 98 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 2: it's been the case that capitalism has unfortunately been gradually 99 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 2: on the wing to the extent that now the United 100 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 2: States of America is way down the list on economic 101 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 2: freedom indices. Both Fraser, the Heritage Foundation, cerferent organizations that 102 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 2: measure these things now show that even the Nordic countries 103 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: have more economic freedom than the United States of America. 104 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you wrote about that for eighteen nineteen news recently. 105 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: And that's and by the way, it doesn't necessarily matter 106 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,239 Speaker 1: for Republican as president. You know, Republicans are not always 107 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: for economic freedom. We've had our own ambiguous relationship with 108 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: economic freedom. 109 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's correct, And you know, and I 110 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 2: think that's pretty easy to demonstrate like this through documentation 111 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 2: of past administrations going back for several decades to the eighties. 112 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: But one thing that people miss when they talk about markets. 113 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: I hear people talk about markets, this market's that, and 114 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 2: they seem to just refer to like the stock market 115 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 2: or something. They don't really realize that. You know, markets 116 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 2: are just the aggregate commercial behavior of acting human agents 117 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: in society. And there's actually an epistemological reason why markets 118 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: are superior to interventionism. And that's mainly because economic correlate 119 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 2: nation is a local thing. It's contextual, it's tacit. It's 120 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: something that we do every day for reasons we can't 121 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 2: even explain. I just got back from the grocery store 122 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: ten minutes before we got on this call, and I 123 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 2: bought things for certain reasons and didn't buy things for 124 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 2: other reasons that no government bureaucrat in Washington, d C. 125 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 2: Can can explain, and I'm not even sure I can explain. 126 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: I passed up, you know, a particular type of coffee 127 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 2: creamer for another kind because of the cost, and I thought, well, 128 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 2: these are virtually the same thing. I'll get this one, 129 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 2: you know. But those are decisions that in the aggregate 130 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: may give signals to companies and to entrepreneurs and to 131 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 2: other people about what people are willing to buy and sell. 132 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 2: But for me, you know, I didn't even have a 133 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: fully formed explanation for why I did it. But businesses 134 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 2: will respond to these changes in pricing, and the price 135 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 2: system is a signal to all these producers written large, 136 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: and it encourages efficiency, It directs resources to their most 137 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 2: valued uses, It helps avoid shortages and surpluses, and all 138 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: these things have a moral component. It's not as if, 139 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: you know, people talk about economics like it's just this 140 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 2: big negative thing and that it's just people trying to 141 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 2: take advantage of other people, like it's a zero sum game, 142 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: and that's just not the case. Economics is really the 143 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 2: study of human freedom and the studying of how people 144 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 2: operate absent government coercion, at least properly understood. I think 145 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: it is. 146 00:08:57,800 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: Well, this is a point that my friend George Gilder 147 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: has been making lately that that often even friends of 148 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 1: economic freedom think of the market as mainly an incentive system. 149 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: And Gilder says, well, incentives are there, but it's mainly 150 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: an information system. It's mainly a transmission of knowledge. So nobody, 151 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: no one person knows about your coffee creamer decision. But 152 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: because you chose one over another, So you chose based 153 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: on cost, all right, So what's going into that. Well, 154 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: there's different ingredients and some ingredients cost less than others. 155 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: So when you bought one over another, you didn't just 156 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: send a signal to the grocery store about inventory. They 157 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: send a signal to the producer or distributor about what 158 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: there's a demand for, and then they start sending signals 159 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: up the line. Let's say that your coffee creamer is 160 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: soy rather than cream based. I don't know, maybe it's 161 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: cream rather. So now a signal is sent to the 162 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: dairy farmer or to the soy farmer, and then that's 163 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: goes up to the feed producer or to the fertilizer producer. 164 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: So this thing fractals out in almost infinite complexity. Nobody 165 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: could manage that. 166 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 2: And I don't fully appreciate my own role in it. 167 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 2: I didn't fully understand that that's what I was doing 168 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: when I was buying one coffee creamer as opposed to another. 169 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 2: I didn't think of myself as being a participant in 170 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 2: a larger system that facilitates cooperation rather than coercion. 171 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: And you don't need to That's the beauty. 172 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: I don't need to. 173 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,239 Speaker 1: You don't need to know how economics works for economics 174 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 1: to work for you, right, And so you're sending information 175 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: based on demand, and there's this giant global coordination system 176 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: that's going on where information is being shared. It's go 177 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: exact to Leonard Reed's essay ipencil. So you don't have 178 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: to send an email to a dairy farmer I prefer cream, 179 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: or to a soy farmer, I prefer soy or less 180 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: than as an emulti fire. You don't have to choose 181 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: plastic versus But you don't have to make any of 182 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: those decisions consumer sovereignty to use. I think it's a 183 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 1: load of a boy. Misis's phrase means that you're in 184 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: charge of a process that's too vast for you to 185 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: possibly even know what it is you're in charge of. 186 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: That's a beautiful thing. 187 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 2: It is a beautiful thing. And I think sometimes people 188 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 2: give economics a bad rap because of figures like iin Rand, 189 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 2: and they think that economics is about pure selfishness or egoism, 190 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 2: and they misinterpret Adam Smith's Adam Smith's notion of self 191 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 2: regard or self interest as being selfishness, which it isn't 192 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 2: because as a father, it's in my self interest to 193 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 2: ensure that my children are fed, that they have a 194 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 2: better life than what I have, that they go to 195 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 2: a good school, that they're educated, that my church is 196 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,079 Speaker 2: getting a tithe from me every week, that my community 197 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 2: is growing and doing well and prospering, that my neighbors 198 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 2: are are healthy, and that all these these these are 199 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 2: in myself interest. And guess what, that's not just about me. 200 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 2: That's about everybody in my community, and we're all working 201 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: to make each other better. That is part of our 202 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,599 Speaker 2: self interest. It's not that it's just absolute pure selfishness 203 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: where I want to take everything from somebody else so 204 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 2: that they can't have it. 205 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: That's not Let's stick with a coffee creamer. Okay, since 206 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: you started, you chose that analogy, all right, you have 207 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: one at home or a couple at home? Still kids 208 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: three three kids, three kids? I did does like the 209 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 1: oldest drink coffee. 210 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 2: Not yet not yet fourteen. 211 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: He's still see you, still spitting it out. You don't 212 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: want to stunt his growth, although I've seen the pictures 213 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: on Facebook. Maybe you need to stunt his growth a 214 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: little bit. 215 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 2: He's he's above you already started starting to shoot up, 216 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:51,839 Speaker 2: all right. 217 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: And then you have you know, people come over for holidays, 218 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: so you're buying coffee creamer for more than just yourself. 219 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe the majority coffee creamer you bought is consumed 220 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: by somebody else, So that doesn't sound like selfishness. I mean, 221 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,719 Speaker 1: I think there's something that people really fail to understand 222 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: that when somebody earns money and buys a product, most 223 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: people are in families, which means most people are not 224 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: doing most of the consuming of what they purchase with 225 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: their production. So most of what they're doing is redistributing, 226 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: but they're doing it voluntarily. So this idea of self 227 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: interest and altruism is bad. I think i'm Ran was 228 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: just so wrong on this when my wife is shopping, 229 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: she's shopping mostly not for her. When I'm shopping, I'm 230 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: thinking what was Susan like? And we're thinking what would 231 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: our daughter Mercy like? Or maybe the kids are coming 232 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: over this weekend, what would the kids like? It's mostly 233 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 1: not for us. Therefore, it's mostly not self interest, except 234 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: to the degree that you want to wrap in our 235 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: love for our family as a form of self interest. 236 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: But if you define it that broadly, all you've done 237 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: is reinvented enlightened self interest, which includes altruism. So we're 238 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: back to the traditional moral coding. That's right. 239 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 2: The text message I sent as I was walking into 240 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: the grocery store, it was to my parents, who are 241 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 2: coming in town for the Iron Bowl, the big Auburn 242 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 2: Alabama game. And I said, heading into the grocery store, 243 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 2: what would y'all like? Yes, it was not I'm coming 244 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 2: here to get everything for myself so that I can 245 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 2: sit here and hoard it and eat it and all 246 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 2: that it knows. I wanted everybody to come here and 247 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 2: have an enjoyable experience. We're going to enjoy this football 248 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 2: weekend together. We're going to enjoy the fun, the fellowship. 249 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 2: We're going to create memories, We're going to carry out traditions. 250 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 2: This is going to make us better people at the 251 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 2: end of the day. 252 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. I love what George Gilder said early on, and 253 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: it was iin RAN's last big fight was with Gilder. 254 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: She said the capitalism is self interest. George Gilder said 255 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: that capitalism, entrepreneurial capitalism is a gift giving contest, and 256 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: she hated that. But I don't know, as an entrepreneur 257 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: and as a producer and as a share that really 258 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: rings true to me. I try to outgive to my 259 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: customers and they give to me, and then I we 260 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: then we give most of it away. 261 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 2: Uh yeah, Rand, You know. She her objectivism purports to 262 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 2: be predicated on Aristotle, but she seems to miss the 263 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 2: very central teaching of Aristotle that humans are social beings 264 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 2: and so that everything we might do in our self 265 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 2: interests involves other people, it involves concern for other people. 266 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 2: And I just find that from that predicate she's kind 267 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 2: of off base. 268 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: And she ignores this distinction between retributive justice and distributive justice, 269 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: right because most most economic production goes into distribution, not 270 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: it's not it's not mostly about contracts. It's mostly the 271 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: you get you have a contract, you have you get 272 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: a contract with with you with the business school. Now 273 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: I have a contract with heritage or whatever, and then 274 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: you share that. So let's that's kind of I think 275 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: this is a great way to refocus on ESG, especially 276 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: the knowledge problem, because because ESG seems to be the 277 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: steering of business in a certain direction by people who 278 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: are not actually participants in the production system. They're more 279 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: like activists far away without skin in the game. They 280 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: work at the aggregator level, they work at the thought 281 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: leader level. They do not have the detailed knowledge, and 282 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: so they don't not only do they not have the 283 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: skin in the game, but they don't have the information, 284 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: the pricing information, so they come along and try to 285 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: micromanage business when business has the pricing information. So the 286 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: degree that ESG activists cause business people to make different 287 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: decisions than the decisions they would make based on the 288 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: market information, to that degree, it's distorting the beauty of 289 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: the market system. 290 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 2: It is, and that's why we see so many people 291 00:16:54,960 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 2: who favor ESG championing our law being regulation for regulation. 292 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 2: And I like to put it this way, I say, 293 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 2: in what world is it a good business decision to say, hey, 294 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 2: I've got two options here, I'm going to pick this 295 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 2: choice that alienates fifty percent of the United States of America. 296 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 2: Let's just say it's fifty percent by picking some kind 297 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 2: of left wing acadism and no, world, is that a 298 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:24,199 Speaker 2: good business decision to say, Hey, if i institute some 299 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 2: LGDBQ plus policy or I'm going to provide transgender healthcare 300 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 2: to minors, or I'm going to support whatever it is 301 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 2: and automatically alienate fifty percent of consumers. That seems like 302 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 2: it would be a bad business decision, and that's what 303 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 2: so much of ESG involves. But you know, if you 304 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 2: can change the rules of the game so that everybody 305 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 2: has to play by that, then you then then it 306 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 2: doesn't matter so much if you alienate that that amount 307 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 2: of people, or if you if you look at it 308 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: this way, just if mathematically ESG waighted portfolios yield fewer returns, 309 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 2: are less money over time, but you reconfigure the rules 310 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 2: so that everybody has to play by the ESG game, 311 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 2: well then then then ESG might actually work. But just mathematically, 312 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 2: if you're just doing pure ESGU way to portfolio is 313 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: because investment involves two sort of pieces of conventional wisdom 314 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: to diversification of assets and the mitigation of risk. And 315 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 2: if you can't diversify assets because you've already narrowed the 316 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 2: range of possibilities according to ESG screens, then you're not 317 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 2: going to maximis it turns over time unless you can 318 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: just change the rules of the game so that everybody 319 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 2: has to play with the narrowed parameter. 320 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great So it's a little bit like 321 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: that analogy of people are watching a parade, and someone 322 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: stands on their toes on the tiptoes to see the parade, 323 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: and then everyone stands on their tiptoes to see the parade, 324 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: and so the same number of So if you change, 325 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: if you make everything ESG, then there is no EA 326 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: differential and then therefore the market can't test the ESG thesis, 327 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: which is that you will get better long term returns 328 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: by screening on social conditions. And maybe that is why 329 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: the ESG movement has not really focused on product creation. 330 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: It's focused on product capture because if it present, if 331 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: it created what we call in the industry alpha positive 332 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: alpha over performance. If that was the case, let's say 333 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: that the ESG deal was real. Let's say I'm an 334 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: ESG guy and I figure out that the ESG thing 335 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: is real. There is no way that I write a book. 336 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: There's no way that I write a white paper or 337 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: an op ed. I start a hedge fund using ESG, 338 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: I leverage it to the hilt, and I make billions, 339 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: and I don't tell anybody. Right, the fact that it's 340 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: out there, that it started out in the thought leader 341 00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:00,239 Speaker 1: world and it tried to capture everybody through regulation or 342 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: through proxy voting, or through activism or through shame, indicates 343 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: that implicitly, deep down in their hearts, even if they 344 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: don't can't acknowledge it, they know that it's not an 345 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: advantage in investment returns, because if it was an advantage 346 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: in investment returns, you would never have shared it. It 347 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: would be your secret sauce and you. And that's why 348 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: you'll see me sometimes on social media when these ESG 349 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: people say, well, you have to take into account risk, 350 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. I say, great, start a fund, right, 351 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: If you start a fund, you overperform, The world will 352 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: beat its path to your door. But you know that 353 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: it won't. 354 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And you know, from a Hyaikan standpoint, 355 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 2: prices send signals about scarcity, about preferences, about opportunity costs. 356 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 2: But ESG introduces all these non market criteria that override 357 00:20:55,119 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 2: price signals, including regulation, but you know, excluding certain investments 358 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 2: regardless of their returns or customer demand. And so you're 359 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 2: dealing a lot of you know a lot of times 360 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 2: with rather than market pricing. I guess you could say 361 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 2: political pricing. You know, you're you're dealing with political uh 362 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 2: concerns rather than actual market pricing. Yeah, red seeking prinsicle, 363 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 2: that's exactly right. 364 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: So let's stick with let's stick with the with the creamer. 365 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: This is all making me want to go into the 366 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: kitchen and get a nice, frothy like mocha thing like that. 367 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: I have to wait until after the interview. It just 368 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: so happens. This is the week that we've in our 369 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: team at Boyer Research, we've been looking at the proposals 370 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 1: share old of proposals for this year and classifying them 371 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: and we're seeing a huge spike in what I call 372 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 1: the war on food or anti agriculture. So there's a 373 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: lot of cal flatulence causes the weather to change. Hey, 374 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: if if you have a flood, must be caw farts. 375 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: I know it's funny, but they're taking this seriously. Or 376 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: don't use antibiotics or you know, don't use insecticides, or 377 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: like just like micromanaging of the food production system, including 378 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: the cream in your coffee by people who have never 379 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: been farmers, who don't seem to have any particular expertise 380 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: in farming, right, they just have an activist dream, maybe 381 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: their foundation people whatever, you know, they saw a documentary 382 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: about how the world can be sustainable and what we 383 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: really need to do is kind of go back to 384 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: like hippie farming norms or something like that. And you know, 385 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 1: we got to feed eight billion people. It's moving towards 386 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: ten billion people and it kind of worries me. So 387 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: I guess the reason I'm talking about that is because 388 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: your coffee cream, right, I mean, I'm just one thing 389 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: that pops into my mind here is there was a 390 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: proposal last year from People for the Ethical Treatment of 391 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: Animals which tried to pressure Starbucks to raise the price 392 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: of cream and lower the price of oat milk for 393 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: the environment. And also because maybe you didn't know this, 394 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,959 Speaker 1: doctor Mendenhall, I didn't either, Apparently people of color are 395 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 1: more likely to be lactose intolerant. So so Starbucks, by 396 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: using market signals to price cream in the coffee, was 397 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: actually practicing racism. And what they need to do is 398 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: suppress market signals and raise cream prices despite consumer demand. 399 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: And I'm just thinking about how distant this is from that, 400 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: Like I think you called it tacit or local knowledge. 401 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,479 Speaker 1: A farmer is extremely incentivized to know how farming works. 402 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: A city activist using inherited you know, assets from some 403 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: grandfather who made the fortune, you know, it's some completely 404 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: different thing. Or some tech firm doesn't know anything about farming, 405 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: and yet through ESG they act like experts and they 406 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: override those decisions. 407 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 2: Yes, that is exactly right. So again from that Hyaekian perspective, 408 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 2: knowledge is dispersed among millions of individuals, each with their 409 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 2: context specific information that can't be aggregated from the top down, 410 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 2: and yet ESG wants to do everything from the top 411 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 2: down and control behavior in that way. And whether it's 412 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 2: through ESG metrics that seek to measure or define or 413 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 2: standardize all these different I don't know activities across firms 414 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 2: and industries, or whether it's through the United Nation sustainability 415 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 2: development goals. There is always this urge to try to 416 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 2: push from the top down, and it's just the exact 417 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: opposite of everything we know about how market sen signs 418 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 2: and how we know that we can improve people's lives 419 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 2: whether they're black, white, whatever, But we know how to 420 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 2: help people who are suffering in poverty, and it's not 421 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 2: by these mechanisms that are centrally controlled. And you'll find, 422 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 2: interestingly enough, that the more regulation there is, the bigger 423 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 2: the company, the more likely it is in many cases 424 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 2: to support the regulation because of this sort of public 425 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 2: choice notion of regulatory capture, where a big corporation knows 426 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 2: that it can absorb the costs of compliance, it can 427 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 2: afford to comply with all these regulations while squeezing out 428 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 2: all the competition. And guess what all that competition would 429 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 2: have done. It would have driven those prices down and 430 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 2: made these products cheaper for the ordinary consumer. 431 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: Interesting. One of the things that indicated to me how 432 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: incredibly powerful in a bad sense the ESG and DEI 433 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: movement is is the unlikely corporations that it captured. You know, 434 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: the John Deere's, the tractor supplies the Harley Davidson's Regions Bank, 435 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: for example. 436 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 2: Thank you. 437 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: So you have had this ongoing thing you've written about Regions. 438 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: You're Alabama based, right last time I checked, it was 439 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: a red state, very conservative state. Regions is headquartered there, 440 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,479 Speaker 1: and yet they had made all these commitments. Now some 441 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 1: of them they've walked back to their credit, not all 442 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: of them maybe. So you know, in the last few 443 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: minutes of our conversation here, I'm wondering if you want 444 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about your encounter with Regions 445 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: and what it taught you about ESG and it's reach. 446 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm happy to do that. So a few years 447 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 2: ago I testified on behalf of what we call Ineconomic 448 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: Boycott's Bill, which is an ESG piece of legislation that 449 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: prohibits public funds from being used to advance ESG causes. 450 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 2: To put it as simplistically as possible, and it was 451 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 2: non controversial at the time in my opinion, for a 452 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 2: red state like Alabama. I think at that time both 453 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 2: our Senators Katie Brent and Tommy Tubberville had come out 454 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 2: against ESG. Trump, who was not yet a presidential candidate 455 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 2: at that time, had come out against it. Governor DeSantis 456 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 2: had led this eighteen governor coalition against ESG that included 457 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 2: Governor k Ivy and Alabama and our Attorney general was 458 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 2: actively opposed to ESG. So I thought this is a 459 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 2: pure winner. How could I lose by going up and 460 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 2: testifying in the State House about this bill. Well, I 461 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: was wrong. The Alabama Bankers Association and Region's Bank basically 462 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 2: came after me. Particular individuals involved with those organizations called 463 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 2: the board of directors at Troy and tried to get 464 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 2: me fired and made it very personal. The head of 465 00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 2: the Alabama Bankers Association called my cell phone that night 466 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 2: and I won't go into everything you said, but he 467 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 2: said a lot of really bad things and and it 468 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 2: was shocking to me. Well, fortunately I had a lot 469 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 2: of conservative organizations come come back to my come come 470 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 2: back me up. Jerry, you are part of that. You 471 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 2: you and a constellation of organizations, including the Heritage Foundation, 472 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 2: which at the time I wasn't working for Exchange seventeen 473 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 2: ninety two. Exchange was another one that The National Center 474 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 2: for Public Policy Research was another one. The Heartland Institute 475 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 2: was another one. I mean, I had people from all 476 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 2: over the place that were I mean, I think the 477 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 2: Heartland Institute was publishing op eds and little local newspapers 478 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 2: in Alabama that they didn't even know existed before that. 479 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 2: But that was that was great because I went from 480 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 2: feeling alone one night to the next day feeling that 481 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 2: I had an army behind me at any rate. Fast 482 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 2: forward and uh, we're looking at some debanking legislation here 483 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: in Alabama. And I already got word from some of 484 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 2: the legislators with whom I had become friends that Regions 485 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 2: was becoming a problem. And I said, well, gosh, well, 486 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 2: I look at all this stuff that region's doing, and 487 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 2: it's so misaligned with Alabama values. I'm just gonna look 488 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 2: at this more closely. And I started going through all 489 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 2: these documents that Regions had publicly available, and I was 490 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 2: shocked at how radically left wing regions had become. And 491 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 2: so I wrote my first article on regions about, you know, 492 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 2: does regions financial stand for Alabama values? Are undermine them? 493 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 2: And I started listing all these things about how much 494 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 2: money they had contributed to Black Lives Matter and how 495 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 2: they were doing DEI and I went through seventeen ninety 496 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:55,239 Speaker 2: two exchanges ratings of regions and what those ratings were 497 00:29:55,240 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 2: based on. And that article really struck a nerve. Everybody 498 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 2: started talking about it. So Regions issued this fact sheet, 499 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 2: and this fact sheet said, okay, you may have seen 500 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,719 Speaker 2: this op ed in eighteen nineteen news that alleged this 501 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 2: and that, and here's the truth. Well, that fact sheet 502 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 2: gave me an opportunity to write another piece, because I 503 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 2: was able to go through each claim on the fact 504 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 2: sheet and then provide a bunch of data that I 505 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 2: had gathered. In fact, I had screenshotted several tweets by 506 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 2: Regions Bank about you know, celebrating DEI and about women's 507 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 2: equality includes financial equality, and about you know, different DEI 508 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 2: things and different LGBTTQ things, and so I was able 509 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 2: to include those in my article even though Regents had 510 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 2: already deleted them after my article. It was like they 511 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 2: were trying to undo the digital footprint that they had created. 512 00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 2: But I was then able to show all the reasons 513 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 2: why I had written that article, in addition to the 514 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 2: ones I'd provided in the previous article, And they just 515 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 2: kept digging themselves deeper and deeper and deeper into the whole, 516 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 2: and lo and behold, when it came time for us 517 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 2: to start doing shareholder filings at Heritage. I was pleasantly 518 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 2: surprised to see that we held Region stock, and so 519 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 2: that provided an opportunity for us to engage as shareholders. Now, 520 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 2: I will back up and say that seventeen ninety two, 521 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 2: Exchange and Inspire Investing had also been talking with Regions, 522 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 2: and Regions did go back and revise its twenty twenty 523 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 2: four Shared Values Report and did make some important changes. 524 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 2: So Regions is trying to do stuff in the right direction, 525 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 2: which is the whole purpose of shareholder engagement. From my perspective, 526 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: it's not to attack a corporation or to try to 527 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 2: make a corporation over in your own desires. No, it's 528 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 2: to help the corporation be a better corporation, to do 529 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 2: the things that the corporation is supposed to do. That 530 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 2: should be a pretty self evident thing for financial institutions. 531 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 2: For banks, what they I mean, banks do all kinds 532 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 2: of great things for human beings, and they don't need 533 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 2: to be doing all this extra stuff that is not 534 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 2: only irrelevant to their business but alienates consumers and in 535 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 2: fact undermines what they actually should be doing as a corporation. 536 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: So it seems to me that what we have, the 537 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: situation we have with regions, is that we're learning not 538 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: how corporations should not respond to corporate engagement. They shouldn't 539 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: say we don't. They shouldn't say I'm going to correct 540 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: the record and then delete a bunch of things that 541 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: they said and then act like they never said it, 542 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: because that's doubly bad, right, because then you can just 543 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: go back to the way back machine and find something 544 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,719 Speaker 1: like that that just does not make sense. And so 545 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: I think they kind of right all the other things, 546 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: and now they're doing the right thing. Well, you know, 547 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: that's good. I mean, it's good that they got there eventually, 548 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: and I think that's progress. What I take away from 549 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: that is how amazing it is that a bank centered 550 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: in Alabama could have gotten that far to the left. 551 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: And I blame two groups for that. I blame the 552 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: left for their sneaky infiltration of corporate governance, but I 553 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: mostly blame the right for our neglect of our corporate responsibility. 554 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: So but we're atoning for that now, And so you're 555 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: that's one of the things you're doing through the Heritage 556 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: Foundation Capital Markets Initiative. I know we only have a 557 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: couple of minutes left. You want to talk a little 558 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: bit about what you're doing there. 559 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, I'd be happy to. So, where as you 560 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 2: know very well, filing shareholder resolutions with numerous companies, I 561 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 2: think we'll hit twenty five this year. And one of 562 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 2: the i'll call it targets. One of the one of 563 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 2: one of the areas we're focusing on is Misaligned Bank's 564 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 2: regional bank. So I may have failed to mention that 565 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,479 Speaker 2: region's bank is actually headquartered in Birmingham, Alabama. So that's 566 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 2: an important reason for me based in Alabama to focus 567 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 2: on them. But another entity that's based in Alabama is 568 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 2: the Southern Poverty Law Center and not too long before 569 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk's assassination, the Southern Poverty Law Center had negatively 570 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 2: profiled to put it mildly, tp USA, Charlie Kirks TPUSA 571 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 2: and the heat map that SPLC has put out can 572 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 2: arguably be classified as a a hit map, a hit list, 573 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 2: and we've seen that with Family Research Council, and we 574 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 2: see it with the way that protesters target companies that 575 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 2: have fallen on that SPLC hate list. And it's a 576 00:34:55,560 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 2: bad faith effort insofar as they try to take mainstream 577 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 2: Christian conservative organizations like Alliance Defending Freedom and lump them 578 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 2: in the same category as neo Nazis and real hate groups. 579 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:17,879 Speaker 2: And that is just a low ball tactic, and it's 580 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 2: it's it's inaccurate, and it endangers the safety of people 581 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 2: who work at these corporations, and it distorts what the 582 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 2: public perception is of these corporations. And so one other 583 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 2: area in which we're filing Sharehod resolutions is with companies 584 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:40,879 Speaker 2: that are using SPLC's hate map and diagnostic tools as 585 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 2: part of their business. And again, as you know very 586 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 2: very well, some of these companies are doing that through Benevity, 587 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 2: which is a platform that companies will use for charitable 588 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 2: giving and other types of uh, you know, screens and 589 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 2: activities within the corporation. But we've had recent success with 590 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 2: Salesforce where Salesforce has walked it back and they have 591 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 2: stopped stopped using their SPLC metrics and they've directed Benevity 592 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 2: to stop using those metrics. And this is a very 593 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 2: very good thing, This is a great success. My colleague 594 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 2: Tyler O'Neil at the Daily Signal has just written a 595 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 2: great piece on this. We'll be issuing a press release 596 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 2: very soon about it. And this is in stark contrast to, 597 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 2: for example, starbucks response to our engagement, in which Starbucks 598 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 2: basically told us to pound sand and they're going to 599 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 2: file a no action letter with the SEC. And so 600 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 2: we are still working through all these different things. And 601 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 2: it's exciting for me because I haven't unlike you, I 602 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 2: haven't been on this side of this stuff. I've been 603 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,240 Speaker 2: in academia where I could write about people doing this stuff, 604 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 2: and I could talk about people doing this stuff, but 605 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,919 Speaker 2: I've never been a part of it. And so it's 606 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 2: exciting for me, as someone who's been mostly a theoretician, 607 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 2: to actually roll up my sleeves and get in there 608 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 2: and do this stuff. It's you know, I used to 609 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 2: be I used to actually be a lawyer, a practicing lawyer. 610 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,959 Speaker 2: So it reminds me of those days when I could, 611 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 2: you know, file a lawsuit and do the fun stuff. 612 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 2: And I find this to be satisfying both at the intellectual, academic, 613 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 2: theoretical level and at the practical level at the same time. 614 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 2: And it's very good work. 615 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: Well, yes, and you're doing very well with it and 616 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: having tremendous effect. And one of the things I'm loving 617 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: to see is the way that Heritage Foundation seventeen ninety two, 618 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: Exchange Alliance Defending Freedom and others all working together. There's 619 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: a division of labor where there's certain things, where there's 620 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: certain skill sets that are distributed, and that's a marvelous 621 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: thing to see and what we and we see it working. 622 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: And I mean, I mean, who would have thought Salesforce 623 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: would move in this direction? 624 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 2: I totally agree, and I love this because so many 625 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 2: organizations that are conservative compete for the same donors and 626 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 2: they throw each other under the bus and they don't 627 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 2: collaborate for whatever reason, and they try to make one 628 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,800 Speaker 2: organization seem worse than the other because again they're competing 629 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 2: for donors, or they're competing for attention or whatever it is. 630 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 2: Some of it is just healthy rivalry, but some of 631 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 2: it isn't healthy rivalries almost very unhealthy. And I feel 632 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 2: that this ecosystem in which we are operating is very collaborative, 633 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 2: very constructive, and we're doing what we really ought to 634 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 2: be doing, which is teaming up and figuring out our 635 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 2: competitive advantage, figuring out who's good at what and who can. 636 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: Do what better. 637 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 2: And it's been great. I love working with seventeen ninety 638 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 2: two Exchange. I love working with Adea, I love working 639 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 2: with ALEC. I love working with all these organizations, and 640 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 2: we're doing different things with each one, and I just 641 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:03,399 Speaker 2: really enjoy seeing the talent of different individuals being brought 642 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 2: to bear in different areas. I mean, whether they're attorneys 643 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 2: like Paul Watkins, or whether it's you know, someone like 644 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 2: Mike Thompson who's able to come up with all kinds 645 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 2: of interesting policy, whether it's ADF and the legal and 646 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 2: corporate skills they bring to bear, or seventeen ninety two 647 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 2: Exchange with its ability to research, or whether it's you, 648 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 2: Jerry and all the experience and skills you bring to 649 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 2: the movement. It's just really fun to be part of it. 650 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,879 Speaker 2: And I learn every single day from somebody, and as 651 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,959 Speaker 2: somebody that loves to acquire knowledge, this is a great 652 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 2: place to be in. 653 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: Yes, well, it's another area of that regional specialized knowledge, 654 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: and if we have a marketplace, what we get is 655 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: greater production. What I've seen in this engagement is a 656 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 1: supply side shift the curve. The supply curve is shifting 657 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: up into the right and that's showing up in the 658 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: form of victories, and I think there would be far 659 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: fewer victories if you were going at alone, or we 660 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: were going at alone, or adf or seventeen ninety two, 661 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,399 Speaker 1: or ALEC or American Family Association or Mike Thompson as 662 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,240 Speaker 1: you mentioned, or you know, Paul Watkins, all these different 663 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: If we were going Jason Isaac, if everyone was going 664 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: in alone, I think we would have we'd be lucky 665 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: to have a twentieth of the progress that we're having. 666 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: So again, it's the marketplace, all right. Alan Mendenhall from 667 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,359 Speaker 1: Capital Markets Initiative at Heritage. Anything you want to leave 668 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:40,479 Speaker 1: us with before we go. 669 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 2: Well, since we've just passed Thanksgiving, I'll just say that 670 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,919 Speaker 2: I'm grateful to you. I'm grateful to your team. I'm 671 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 2: grateful to everybody that you just mentioned for everything they're doing, 672 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 2: and grateful for the opportunity to work in this area. 673 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 2: It's been very fulfilling to me professionally and personally, and 674 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 2: again I'm feeling genuine gratitude for it. 675 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 1: So are we. Grateful to everyone you just mentioned, and 676 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: to you as well, and to you listeners to this 677 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,319 Speaker 1: edition of Meeting of Minds podcast, Thank you for joining us.