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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,

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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the

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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions

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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on doctor James Spencer and I

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Speaker 1: am welcoming back today Peter valk And. He is the

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Speaker 1: director of EQUIP as well as a licensed clinical counselor,

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Speaker 1: and today we're going to be talking about what it

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Speaker 1: means to belong to the Christian community. So welcome back man,

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Speaker 1: thanks for coming back on the show. I'm excited about

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Speaker 1: this conversation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Sam, glad to be here and yeah, curious to

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Speaker 2: hear you know, did you get any interesting comments from

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Speaker 2: audience members from our last conversation or anything stick out

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Speaker 2: for you?

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Speaker 1: So, I think our last conversation I got good feedback

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Speaker 1: on it. I think anytime you address that topic and

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Speaker 1: what we what we really discussed was sort of celibacy

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Speaker 1: within the church period, and then also how that related

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Speaker 1: to celibacy within the sort of the homosexual Christian community.

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Speaker 3: Right, So how celibacy functioned there.

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Speaker 1: And I think that people number one were a little

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Speaker 1: surprised by the celibacy period. It's not a conversation that

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Speaker 1: you usually have in sort of Protestant circles, right, usually

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Speaker 1: reserve that for the Catholics.

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Speaker 3: But then there were also pretty compelled.

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Speaker 1: The folks that I got feedback from were pretty compelled

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Speaker 1: by your approach to this. They thought it was actually

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Speaker 1: somewhat novel, and these weren't people who hadn't necessarily known

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Speaker 1: much and so they were really interested.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, good feedback.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm kind of hoping we can have something

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Speaker 1: very similar today. I think these these topics are really challenging.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've been at churches where and I haven't

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Speaker 1: been involved in those conversations. I'm an elder at my

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Speaker 1: church now, so I anticipate being involved in these kind

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Speaker 1: of conversations, I guess going forward.

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Speaker 3: But you know, I've been at churches in the past

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Speaker 3: where you have.

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Speaker 1: Members who are you know, come to the church already

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Speaker 1: married same sex couples who are already married who come

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Speaker 1: to the church and they're already transitioning. And so then

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Speaker 1: these awkward questions of, hey, what do we do if

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Speaker 1: you know, these folks want to serve in the church,

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Speaker 1: what does it look like for us to engage these

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Speaker 1: people in the church. And I don't gather that it's

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Speaker 1: a question. At least my experience hasn't been that it's

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Speaker 1: a question that's asked in order to exclude, right, But

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Speaker 1: it is a question of how do we do this.

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Speaker 1: It's just a new question that doesn't seem like it

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Speaker 1: should have a default answer, like and so that's a

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Speaker 1: really difficult sort of practical wrestling that I've seen go

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Speaker 1: on at churches. So I'm kind of interested to see

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Speaker 1: where we go with this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So it's it's it's a concern that kind

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Speaker 2: of churches that we partner with at EQUIP often bring

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Speaker 2: to us. So a lot of what I do in

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Speaker 2: my day job through EQUIP is consulting and coaching with churches,

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Speaker 2: and some of that is around some of the standard

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Speaker 2: operating procedure, around policies, around these tricky situations that can

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Speaker 2: end up blowing up if if you handle them poorly.

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Speaker 2: And so there's a couple of things kind of top

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Speaker 2: line that we recommend for these churches. One is clarity

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Speaker 2: is the most important thing to begin with. And so

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Speaker 2: you would not want an LGBT plus person to visit

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Speaker 2: a church, get plugged in, be a part of a

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Speaker 2: small group, and it take years for them to discover

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Speaker 2: that there are certain fences around serving publicly in certain

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Speaker 2: ways right and be surprised by that and feel like

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Speaker 2: a bait and switch experience. So the first thing is

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Speaker 2: I encouraged to figure out what kind of their policies

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Speaker 2: are in terms of what are ways people can serve

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Speaker 2: as leaders and where they're submitting themselves to mutual accountability,

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Speaker 2: and what are ways that people can serve that doesn't

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Speaker 2: require a submission to mutual accountability and then make that clear,

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Speaker 2: you know. And then a key around that is also consistency.

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Speaker 2: If there are roles that we're saying it's only for

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Speaker 2: people who are saying yes to being lay leaders or

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Speaker 2: members where they accept mutual accountability from each other and

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Speaker 2: from the church membership. Are we holding people accountable to

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Speaker 2: other ways that people might be falling short of God's

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Speaker 2: wisdom and is that clear to an LGBT plus person

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Speaker 2: who visits. So that's a couple of things. And then yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's the treaty part of distinguishing what are the ways

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Speaker 2: someone could serve in our churches that that don't Well,

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Speaker 2: there's two ways that some terms go about it. For

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Speaker 2: some churches, it's just fear that any saying yes to

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Speaker 2: an LGBT plus person who is in unrepentant sin and

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Speaker 2: let's let's talk about that category first. Any way of

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Speaker 2: letting them serve that can be seen by others is

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Speaker 2: an endorsement and therefore we cannot do it right. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and that's kind of a fear we navigate with churches.

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Speaker 2: Often what those churches where the searchers get to after

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Speaker 2: some discernment around that is distinguishing between some roles that

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Speaker 2: are serving but not leading or representing the body of Christ, okay,

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Speaker 2: versus roles where you are serving, where you are leading,

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Speaker 2: or you are representing. And then that's kind of where

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Speaker 2: we make make that distinction. So and then it's kind

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Speaker 2: of I think some different questions about kind of LGBT

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Speaker 2: plus Christians who perhaps are transparent with their journey, but

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Speaker 2: have repented of their sins of kind of any same

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Speaker 2: sex sexual activity they've participated in. And a whole other

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Speaker 2: conversation about people who maybe have medically transitioned have become

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Speaker 2: convinced that that wasn't God's best for them, but for

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Speaker 2: a variety of reasons haven't medically de transitioned. So I'll

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Speaker 2: just I'll pose it there. I'll let you jump in.

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Speaker 1: So let me back it all the way up to

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Speaker 1: the front part, because I think you said something really

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Speaker 1: important there, which is there needs There needs to be

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Speaker 1: clarity and consistency, and so would what I hear you

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Speaker 1: saying there is. Hey, Church, even though this may be

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Speaker 1: the topic in.

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Speaker 3: LGBTQ or someone who is.

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Speaker 1: Transitioning may be the impetus for you to begin thinking

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Speaker 1: about these things, they shouldn't be the only thing that

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Speaker 1: you think about with regard to this sort of service.

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Speaker 1: What we need to be thinking about is not service

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Speaker 1: as privilege necessarily, but how do we cultivate integrity within

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Speaker 1: the body of Christ and within individual Christians? And how

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Speaker 1: might serving detract from that cultivation of integrity. So, in

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Speaker 1: other words, if we busy them in doing things right

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Speaker 1: but allow them to then you know, continue doing whatever

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Speaker 1: it is that they're doing and persistently disobey, you know,

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Speaker 1: God's word or run against the doctrine commitments of the church.

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Speaker 1: Is that really effectively helping them? Are we really building

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Speaker 1: them up in the body of Christ? And so that's

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Speaker 1: part of what I hear you saying. Am I getting

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Speaker 1: that basically right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I understand that, you know. I mean, and I'm

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Speaker 2: a therapist. I know that serving others and gratitude are

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Speaker 2: two of the best ways that we can push away

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Speaker 2: at our own depression. We can learn to connect with others.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you're talking about someone who's getting to

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Speaker 2: know Jesus for the first time or back in church

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Speaker 2: for the first time, I mean, I think those are

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Speaker 2: great ways for people to kind of reconnect and go

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Speaker 2: a little deeper. But you're right, it can become a

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Speaker 2: thing where that's supposed to be an on ramp to

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Speaker 2: then discipleship. And if people only just kind of stick

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Speaker 2: around and serve in kind of load discipleship ways, and

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Speaker 2: particularly if we set up kind of a church system

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Speaker 2: where we incentive advise that, Yeah, that doesn't seem like

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Speaker 2: that serves kind of discipleship.

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Speaker 1: Best, right, And then just giving that clarity around it

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Speaker 1: to say, these are the roles that we view as

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Speaker 1: I liked your word. I think it was what you

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Speaker 1: said representational, right. These are roles that represent the church

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Speaker 1: as opposed to roles that.

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Speaker 3: Are purely service.

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Speaker 1: And so that might for any given church extend from

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Speaker 1: you know, all the way up to the elder board

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Speaker 1: that are you know, truly representing the church in pretty

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Speaker 1: significant ways and have sometimes a fiduciary if not a

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Speaker 1: missional sort of directive from the church to shepherd the congregation,

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Speaker 1: all the way down to even something like a greeter

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Speaker 1: at the door, yeah, and anywhere in between there the

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Speaker 1: church might say, hey, look, this person really does represent us.

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Speaker 1: This is the first phase somebody is going to see

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Speaker 1: when they walk in, and so we want to make

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Speaker 1: sure that this reflects more of I hesitate to say

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Speaker 1: an ideal, but because that there is no ideal, but

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Speaker 1: more but it's more reflective of what we're shooting for.

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Speaker 3: Maybe as a church, how would you.

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Speaker 1: How do you help churches sort of navigate that kind

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Speaker 1: of language, because it really isn't about an ideal. I

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Speaker 1: don't that's a really lousy word, but I can't think

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Speaker 1: of a better one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of So there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: ways to belong and serve without like representing right everyone,

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Speaker 2: what's available to everyone, worship attendance, small group participation, you know,

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Speaker 2: taking meals to people in their homes when they're sick

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Speaker 2: and sharing meals with other people, praying and receiving, prayer ministry,

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Speaker 2: receiving pastoral care, enjoying friendship you know, within the body

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Speaker 2: of Christ. And then there are meaningful ways that people

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Speaker 2: can serve that is not representative. Uh, it doesn't doesn't

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Speaker 2: It doesn't appear as if they are representing the church

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Speaker 2: and and kind of modeling. Hey, I'm leaning into becoming

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Speaker 2: more like Christ every day, set up and tear down

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Speaker 2: any kind of mercy ministry that your church does, a'd

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Speaker 2: and support some logistics related stuff, some of the kind

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Speaker 2: of behind the scenes hospitality teams, service projects, participating in

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Speaker 2: service projects. So I think all of those are ways

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Speaker 2: that people can can menially be a part of the

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Speaker 2: work the mission of the church. But they're not representing

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Speaker 2: and but but but there is kind of yeah, a

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Speaker 2: tier above that and not as in that we're trying

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Speaker 2: to make people second class Christians. But you know, Historically,

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Speaker 2: I think there's been something meaningful about membership and a church.

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Speaker 2: And I know membership is not in vogue these days,

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Speaker 2: but you can call it something else. We can say

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Speaker 2: covenant partners, we can say kind of in the family,

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Speaker 2: we can say bought in, we can we can but

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Speaker 2: come up with some phrase that is people who are

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Speaker 2: committed to praying for the mission of the church, committed

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Speaker 2: to tithing, committed to serving or leading in certain ways,

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Speaker 2: and committed to their own discipleship. And we really encourage

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Speaker 2: churches that we work with to have some kind of

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Speaker 2: deeper bought in level of of kind of membership essentially,

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Speaker 2: and then have some kind of gatekeeping class that people

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Speaker 2: have to go through to kind of understand what does

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Speaker 2: that mean to like lean in more at this church?

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Speaker 2: What are you offering? What are you what are you

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Speaker 2: going to receive from us when you do that? And

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Speaker 2: what are you offering to offer to give when you

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Speaker 2: do that? And part of that is clarity about that

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Speaker 2: mutual accountability and kind of for many churches, like a

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Speaker 2: written kind of pledge uh to some of those things.

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Speaker 2: And so I think that creates these opportunities to uh So,

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Speaker 2: then when you're upfront, and you're talking about different ways

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Speaker 2: to serve or lead. You're not saying the language people

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Speaker 2: here isn't like, you know, leading a Bible study or

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Speaker 2: being a greeter is only reserved for those who aren't

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Speaker 2: sitting in these ways, right, Instead, you say being a

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Speaker 2: small group leader, Like, if you want to be a

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Speaker 2: small group leader, if you want to be a greeterer,

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Speaker 2: if you want to kind of be a part of

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Speaker 2: the body in some of those ways, we love for

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Speaker 2: you to kind of kind of kind of lean into

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Speaker 2: being a covenant partner of what we're doing at this church.

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Speaker 2: And your next opportunity to lean in that way is

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Speaker 2: this class next month, YadA, YadA, YadA. You know. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So yeah, that's some of the ways that some of

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Speaker 2: the churches we've worked with have navigated that.

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Speaker 1: So we've thus far we've kind of talked a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about the what we might call the boundary

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Speaker 1: setting or the prohibited boundaries. Sure at this point, one

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Speaker 1: of the things that I as I was thinking through

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Speaker 1: what to talk about on this episode was I get

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Speaker 1: the impression that a lot of this is going to

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Speaker 1: trigger pressures or critiques from outside organizations, whether that's other churches,

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Speaker 1: whether that's the community at large, you know, and they're

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Speaker 1: going to be looking in and saying, how is this appropriate.

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Speaker 3: That you have quote unquote these people.

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Speaker 1: And these people could be LGBTQ, could be transitioning people,

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Speaker 1: it could be you know, it could be deforce. As

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Speaker 1: you know, I've even had it with my wife and

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Speaker 1: I have had it where where a to Hingham family

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Speaker 1: and she has a career and we had kids and

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Speaker 1: it was like, what are you doing with these people

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Speaker 1: at the church. You know, it can be any of

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Speaker 1: those kind of things, and so how do we positively

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Speaker 1: think about messaging some of this constructing a real faithful,

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Speaker 1: theologically faithful way of describing what it is that we're

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Speaker 1: doing at this moment.

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Speaker 2: Are you particularly talking about from critics who might be

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Speaker 2: a little bit more culturally conservative and think you're compromising

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Speaker 2: too much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's more where I'm concerned with it coming from.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's been my experience with a lot of

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Speaker 1: this stuff is that you know, at least again in

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Speaker 1: my experience, what I found is that people are trying

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Speaker 1: to belong aren't the problem. They're far more understanding than

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Speaker 1: the people outside who are looking in on this and

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Speaker 1: are concerned with things like drift right right, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're drifting somewhere that you shouldn't be. And it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: there is probably a blurred boundary on these on a

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Speaker 1: lot of these things, like you know, and they're going

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Speaker 1: to be decisions that we have to discern one.

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Speaker 3: Way or another.

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Speaker 1: But ultimately there has to be some sort of a

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Speaker 1: constructive story that we can talk about where you know,

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Speaker 1: we're emulating what it means to be the body of

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Speaker 1: Christ by allowing people to belong to this ministry and

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Speaker 1: in allowing them to belong to this ministry, encouraging them

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Speaker 1: not to be sinful but to be conformed more closely

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Speaker 1: the image of Christ.

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Speaker 3: And that takes time.

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Speaker 2: Right yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, the language

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Speaker 2: are using, you're probably familiar slash kind of drawing from

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Speaker 2: the belong belief become paradigm. And I think that really

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Speaker 2: is a helpful way that we can communicate it to critics.

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Speaker 2: We could say that, listen, the church is supposed to

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Speaker 2: be a place where anyone can come with their mess

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Speaker 2: and they can get to know Jesus for the first time,

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Speaker 2: or they can get to know Jesus again, and it

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Speaker 2: seems clear in the scripture is that Jesus let people,

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Speaker 2: let people be among him and let people learn from him,

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Speaker 2: and let people enjoy kind of companionship with kind of

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Speaker 2: his circle of people, even even when they were kind

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Speaker 2: of in sin and unrepentant. And it hadn't even been

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Speaker 2: challenged yet by Christ. And yes, there's a moment where

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Speaker 2: Jesus says, you know, leave it behind and follow me. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you do you want to be a part of this,

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Speaker 2: this this big kingdom work project we're doing, and are

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Speaker 2: you willing to say yes to the better things? And

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Speaker 2: so you know, there there is so I think what

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Speaker 2: what what we say about that is like, hey, there

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Speaker 2: is a moment or an opportunity at our church for

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Speaker 2: people to commit to leaning into serious being a serious disciple,

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Speaker 2: to leaning into becoming more like Christ. And there are

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Speaker 2: certain opportunities to lead and to represent the body of

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Speaker 2: Christ that Yeah, we think it makes the most sense

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Speaker 2: for that to be people who are serious about becoming

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Speaker 2: more like Jesus, people who have said yes to serious discipleship.

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Speaker 2: And we make that distinction. We're not afraid of making

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Speaker 2: that decision. So we've got both, you know. Yeah, So

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Speaker 2: hopefully that would be I think the challenging conversations can

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Speaker 2: come up about, well, what about what the scriptures say

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Speaker 2: about excommunication? Sure, isn't that biblical? Shouldn't we be doing that?

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Speaker 2: And you know, I think in many ways the excommunication

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Speaker 2: happened of people who had essentially become members of that

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Speaker 2: church and had agreed to the mutual accountability of that church.

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Speaker 2: And then we're refusing accountability but still claiming to represent

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Speaker 2: the body and and so whereas there had to have

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Speaker 2: been people even in the early Church who stood at

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Speaker 2: the edges of of of of kind of services and

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Speaker 2: didn't take communion when it was when it was happening,

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Speaker 2: and eight with with the community. But people knew they

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Speaker 2: were visiting, they were, they were, they were kind of

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Speaker 2: giving this a look, those weren't the people they were excommunicating. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and so I yeah, I a full different conversation about

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Speaker 2: among people who maybe commit to be those serious disciples

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Speaker 2: in our church, commit to becoming more like Jesus, what

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Speaker 2: does accountability look like there? But it seems like what

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Speaker 2: the scriptures are talking about in terms of excommunication isn't

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Speaker 2: about keeping visitors out who are in unrepentant sin.

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Speaker 1: It's almost our own lack of clarity that has created

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Speaker 1: part of the problem here, right, Because to your point,

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Speaker 1: there used to be a much more robust membership process.

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Speaker 1: I grew up a Lutheran and so I went through confirmation, right.

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Speaker 1: Confirmation was that moment where you're confirming your commitment to

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Speaker 1: the Lutheran Church and you go through a process and

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Speaker 1: there's catechism and there's you know, there's understanding built in,

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Speaker 1: and it was a long process. It wasn't like, you know,

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Speaker 1: five minutes after a service and okay, you're in.

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Speaker 3: You know, it was a process to go through. And

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Speaker 3: even getting stepping.

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Speaker 1: Away from membership in the Lutheran Church, you actually have

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Speaker 1: to go in and like asked to be taken off. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, And so it's it's it's not just clerical.

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Speaker 1: It was much more formative than that. But I think

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Speaker 1: without that I resonate with what you're saying, because I

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Speaker 1: think without that process, we never really get a commitment

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Speaker 1: from people that they're going to be here right, and

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Speaker 1: that they're going to sit under this you know, local

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Speaker 1: body of authority which in turn sits under God, and

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Speaker 1: that they are going to be subject to the accountability

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Speaker 1: of that group. What we normally get is sort of

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Speaker 1: a mixed multitude of folks, some of whom are like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to commit, but I'm here. I'll listen,

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Speaker 1: you know, But ultimately I can go wherever I want, right,

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Speaker 1: Like much more of a voluntary society than a real committed,

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Speaker 1: hey we're here, we're going to do this together, local

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Speaker 1: level kind of stuff, because I think what you're saying

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Speaker 1: resonates me.

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Speaker 3: I did a piece on the.

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Speaker 1: He gets a campaign, and people were really frustrated about that.

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Speaker 3: And I kind of made the same point you did.

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Speaker 1: You run into John six and Jesus has all these

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Speaker 1: people following him, and then all of a sudden, he says,

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Speaker 1: you need to eat my flesh and drink my blood,

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Speaker 1: and it says and many of his disciples left him

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Speaker 1: that day. And I just think that there's a time

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Speaker 1: where people really like Jesus. He was popular and interesting

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Speaker 1: and people were drawn to him, and then there's a

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Speaker 1: point where things get hard enough where you say this

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Speaker 1: guy's a little too crazy for me. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: step away, or this guy's my kind of crazy. Now

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Speaker 1: I'm going to jump right.

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Speaker 3: In, you know.

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Speaker 1: And so I think there's something too that that initial

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Speaker 1: Let's provide clarity, Let's you know, let's give people really

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Speaker 1: deep understandings, be clear, be consistent, and help people understand

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Speaker 1: how what it means to belong to the church as

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Speaker 1: opposed to just attend the church, right right, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: really interesting.

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Speaker 2: And I understand the impulse to move away from membership,

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Speaker 2: and I understand in more non denominational contemporary worship spaces

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Speaker 2: the ick that people have or it's kind of the

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Speaker 2: whole membership thing. So those ways we can i mean

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Speaker 2: essentially brand it a little differently, you know, or we

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Speaker 2: can just or we could just not have a membership category,

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Speaker 2: but we could have a leadership category and we just

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Speaker 2: have a kind of a leadership onboarding and leadership kind

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Speaker 2: of commitment uh space, which is what a lot of

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Speaker 2: churches do, and then just call certain kinds of representing

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Speaker 2: the church even as a greater leadership leadership. That's one

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Speaker 2: way of also doing that.

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Speaker 1: So the idea would be that there's a there's a

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Speaker 1: point where if you're going to do this, you have

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Speaker 1: to jump in and and that that seems reasonable to me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it does make a distinction that I think is

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Speaker 1: actually really important, and it avoids the bait and switch

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Speaker 1: you were talking about. But it also allows people who

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Speaker 1: maybe are just trying to figure things out, maybe they're

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Speaker 1: not at a point in their life where they really

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Speaker 1: even understand what it looks like to follow Christ, can

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Speaker 1: still be around this and experience the love and generosity

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Speaker 1: of that community belong to it before they ever have

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Speaker 1: to make their choice, right, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it also avoids, or hopefully avoids circumstances where

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Speaker 2: people feel like they're being held accountable when they never

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Speaker 2: agreed to it and trace it that and tell damaging

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Speaker 2: stories about the church afterwards. If there is a clear

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Speaker 2: like this, there's opt in, and part of the opting

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Speaker 2: in is you are agreeing to mutual accountability. Some people

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Speaker 2: will still later when they receive the accountability, dislike it

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Speaker 2: and tell certain stories about it, but hopefully it at

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Speaker 2: least reduces it is some of the kind of chafing

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Speaker 2: at that.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, So, aside from more of these formal structural aspects,

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Speaker 1: what in your mind is helpful to create more of

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Speaker 1: that informal belonging for folks And again I'm not just

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Speaker 1: thinking of like lgbt t Q transgender folks, I'm even

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Speaker 1: thinking maybe even younger generations or people who have been

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of shunned in other ways by Christian communities,

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Speaker 1: Like what needs to happen, What sort of ethos needs

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Speaker 1: to be created within a church to actually be welcoming

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Speaker 1: to folks?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So a couple things come to mind.

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Speaker 2: One is that you know, what we have noticed in

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Speaker 2: the kind of work we're we are doing at EQUIP

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Speaker 2: and the churches is that the enemy is very cleverly

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Speaker 2: these days using LGBT plus topics kind of the me

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Speaker 2: too movement and church or general related to that stuff,

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Speaker 2: racial injustice, as as wedges to kind of push people

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Speaker 2: away from Jesus, embarrassed people about Christianity, about Christians, about

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Speaker 2: the church, and push them away from Jesus. And so

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Speaker 2: I do think a big part of the belonging is

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Speaker 2: being in a space where people can belong, as being

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Speaker 2: a space where people feel less embarrassed of Jesus and

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Speaker 2: by our churches engaging in these topics not because they're

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Speaker 2: more important than the Gospel, but if they're becoming wedge

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Speaker 2: issues that the enemy is using to push people away

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Speaker 2: from the Gospel, then it's like of gospel importance that

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Speaker 2: we address them winsomely and with humility, also with clarity.

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Speaker 2: So I think that may not be the first people

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Speaker 2: to think of as like how to create belonging talk

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Speaker 2: about the most controversial topics, but it is one of

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Speaker 2: the reasons why people are like particularly like the gen

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Speaker 2: z in Jenafa, yearning for authenticity and for clarity even

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Speaker 2: if they disagree, and for like sturdiness and substance, even

438
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 2: if they disagree. I think that that's going to draw people.

439
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: I also, I was just talking to somebody at my

440
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 2: church about this the other day, and then church talking

441
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: about the church partner of Equipse that is in a

442
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 2: little bit more rural space, and they still do Wednesday

443
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 2: night classes at the church every Wednesday, Sunday night classes

444
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 2: at the church every Sunday. There's pot luck dinners before

445
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 2: the Wednesday and Sunday night gatherings and things. There's a

446
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 2: lot of community that they have because they actually physically

447
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: gather together at the church. And you know, okay, if

448
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: you're a church of like ten thousand people or even

449
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: a thousand people, that's not very doable. But there's a

450
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 2: lot of churches with three hundred people who are only

451
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 2: gathering in small groups and separate homes outside of Sunday morning.

452
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 2: And I think there's some ways in which that is

453
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 2: more intimate. And I understand the move to like small

454
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 2: groups and homes and spending less time in our churches

455
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 2: over the past decade, but I think there's some ways that,

456
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: like everyone knows, small groups can become kind of cliquy,

457
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 2: and small groups can be a little scary to like

458
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 2: enter into in a new way. So I just I

459
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: don't know. I wonder if like more big group stuff

460
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 2: all together at church over meals, you know, is lower

461
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 2: some barriers to entry there.

462
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's hard to believe that it wouldn't.

463
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: I I was just had a conversation with this economist.

464
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: She and a couple other people had written an article

465
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: called Deaths of Despair, and it is based on their

466
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 1: research into what they call blue laws. There were these

467
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: laws that had kept retail closed on Sundays, and they

468
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 1: started to be released, you know, they started to get

469
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 1: rid of the laws state by state over a period

470
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: of several years. And what they saw was a correlation

471
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: between the elimination of these blue laws, where retail could

472
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: then be open and an increase in what they call

473
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: deaths of despair, which was liver or promise from alcohol,

474
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: drug deaths, and suicides. And I found it so compelling

475
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: because and it wasn't like, hey, this is what caused it, right,

476
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: but the decoupling of religion as one of the social

477
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: arenas where people could actually connect one with another and

478
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: potentially cope with the loneliness that they otherwise felt to

479
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: derive some sort of symbolic.

480
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 3: Meaning about life was really well correlated.

481
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: I mean, could show in the state that released these

482
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: blue laws the deaths went up.

483
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 3: Well before a state that didn't.

484
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: Sure, you know, it's just sort of fascinating to watch,

485
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: and so I think, you know, you're really hitting on

486
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: something there, because it's there has to be a sense

487
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: of community developed.

488
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 3: And I do agree that.

489
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: I think, you know, small groups tend to be what

490
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: people point to when they talk about community in a church.

491
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: Worship on Sundays doesn't usually do that, can but it

492
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: doesn't usually it's sort of you're in, you're out. It's

493
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: gotten a little transactional, right, And so having service events,

494
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: having dinners, having these other things that you can do

495
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: alongside where more people can participate seems intuitive to me.

496
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, if like Wendell Berry or somebody

497
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 2: like that was in this conversation, they talk about the

498
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: importance of place right and like particularly prioritize if it's

499
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 2: not gathering in your church, gathering in the closest coffee shop,

500
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: or serving your neighborhood the closest physically closest service opportunity.

501
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 2: I mean, really like investing in the place of your

502
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 2: church and or what's around it, encouraging people, like not

503
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: in a culty way, but like in a what if

504
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: you could walk to these what if you could walk

505
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 2: to church? What if you could walk to these events way?

506
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,479
Speaker 2: Encourage people to move closer to the church, particularly if

507
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 2: they're young adults and and they're living in apartments and

508
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 2: they kind of have some mobility in those ways. Yeah,

509
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: I just I think that could be pretty cool.

510
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: Sort of an odd, an adjacent question, a tangential question.

511
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: I guess you mentioned, you know, gen Z sort of

512
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: yearning for some sort of depth and substance within a church.

513
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: We're starting to talk about doing a series on this

514
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: sort of evangelical the conversion of evangelicals to Catholic and

515
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: or Eastern Orthodox in greater numbers. And part of what

516
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: that conversation entails is just this question of has have

517
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: evangelical churches so decoupled themselves from ritual, from tradition, from

518
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: history and leaned so heavily on sort of the personal

519
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: application and the individual relationship with Christ, which obviously you

520
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: don't want to get rid of, But there's there's a

521
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: matter of emphasis. Have we tipped too far this other

522
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: way so that now what we're essentially giving people is

523
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: an independent relationship with Christ that no longer needs to

524
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: be tied in to a community of belonging and it's

525
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: leaving a real whole. Does that bear out in your

526
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: kind of experience and consulting with equipment, It does?

527
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 2: And I wouldn't I would encourage churches not to be

528
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 2: too hard on themselves when it comes to this, you know,

529
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: I guess I think in some ways there there were

530
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: things about mainline Christianity in the seventies and eighties and

531
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 2: nine that felt lacking and felt and there's a reason

532
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 2: why kind of non denominational churches grew in the ways

533
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 2: they did is that they reacted to a need. They

534
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: met a need right, They they innovated right, and and

535
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 2: then it's the but the pendulum always keeps swinging right,

536
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 2: and so it just happens to be that some spaces

537
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 2: that have can kind of continued to be the same

538
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: way for a long time. Now they're in vogue. And

539
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: but listen, I go to a an Anglican church that

540
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: is pretty liturgical, and I am a very Catholic leaning

541
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: Anglican even in that way. And if I could go

542
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 2: to a very high church Anglo Catholic church in Naturville,

543
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: I would, to believe you, I love that stuff, but

544
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 2: in some ways like it's what's in right now and

545
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 2: then may not be in in a decade. So I

546
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: would encourage like non denominational spaces and contemporary more contemporary

547
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 2: worship spaces and like less saturgical spaces not to overreact.

548
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 2: But there has been some neat ways where a lot

549
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 2: of non de andam Baptist kind of used to be

550
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 2: lower church Presbyterians that that I know of are doing

551
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 2: a lot of bringing those elements back into their churches.

552
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 2: They're doing corporate prayer and confession, They're saying the Nicing

553
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: Creed as a whole body of believers. They're doing communion

554
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: more often, They're incorporating more older hymns and kind of

555
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 2: and and kind of doing the music, alternating with more

556
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 2: contemporary sets and more traditional sets in terms of the

557
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: music and mixing it together. So right, I think that's great.

558
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I tend to agree with you. I mean,

559
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: like I said, I grew up Lutheran and so but

560
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: I wasn't. I wouldn't have said I accepted Christ until

561
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: I was in college through campus crusade. And so while

562
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: I still and even back then appreciated the liturgy and

563
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: of what of it I understood, but I mean I

564
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: can still recite the Nicing Creed.

565
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 3: I you know, I know a lot of those things.

566
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: When I go back to a Lutheran church now, I

567
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: can basically just fall right back into that liturgy, and

568
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: I find that to be really great. Like I loved it,

569
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: but at the same time I needed something different. And

570
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: so yeah, I agree with you. I don't think it's

571
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: a question of hey, let's swing the pendulum all the

572
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: way back the other way, right, But there is a

573
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: sense in which there needs to be a response, not

574
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: a reaction, but a response. And you sort of step

575
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: back and say, if we want people to feel as

576
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: if they belong here. Part of what we need to

577
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: attend to is this depth that they feel like we're lacking.

578
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:38,919
Speaker 1: And so how do we bring some of that back?

579
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, without you know, without air, without overcorrecting, you know,

580
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: without correcting, yes, and knowing that different places will fit

581
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 2: best for different people. Also that like, we'll see how

582
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 2: much And again, as a very Catholic leaning Anglican, I'm

583
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: not hating on that stuff, but I'm curious to see

584
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 2: in a couple years even how much is this a

585
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 2: fad in some ways? How much of this is like

586
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 2: some gen Z and jen alpha folk who it's like

587
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 2: cool to go to the space that seems to care

588
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 2: least about trying to get you to like them, and

589
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 2: that's fun for a season, and then that's like not

590
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: fun anymore. I don't know, we'll see, Like what I'm

591
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 2: just there's a lot of mixed motivations. Some of the

592
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 2: motivations are really genuine, will lead to long term rooted

593
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: faith in those traditions. That's going to beautiful. Some of

594
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 2: it's maybe something different, and we'll see what happens with that,

595
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 2: you know, And there may be ways that more like

596
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: non denominous national spaces are better positioned to then meet

597
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 2: those people in what they're for next.

598
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I just think it's important.

599
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: I think it's anytime we see these trends. Really, anytime

600
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: we see I think, any conflict within the Christian community,

601
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: any sort of tension within the Christian community, it's a

602
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: good time just to step back and reflect on what

603
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: we can or can't do to serve that, you know,

604
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 1: what we can or can't do to resolve those tensions.

605
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: And I don't really begrudge any church, you know, they

606
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: if they step back and say there's nothing we're going

607
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: to change, it's like more power to you, right.

608
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 2: You know.

609
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: I I am from a relatively rural area, and so

610
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: it's getting to that point where a lot of the

611
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 1: churches in the area are aging out. And so I

612
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 1: just talked to actually my father in law here a

613
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: few weeks ago, and he was talking about his church

614
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: and it's you know, dwindling in size, and you know,

615
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: they're not exactly sure what they're going to do, and

616
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: and I just told him, I'm like, there's nothing wrong

617
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: with the church ending, Like that's okay. I mean, it

618
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: served its community for a very very long time. And

619
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: as that community shrinks, Like, it's okay that the church shrinks, right,

620
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: it really is okay, it can end, Like there can

621
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: be an end of watch here, right, not for every church,

622
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: but for specific churches, there can be an end of

623
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: watch and that's okay, Like there shouldn't be any necessary

624
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,280
Speaker 1: impetus to sit back and go, we've got to grow

625
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: this thing and to start doing things that are really

626
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: going to, you know, not really fit with who the

627
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: church is now. If that ethos is there, great, But

628
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,439
Speaker 1: if it's not, end to watch, isn't a bad thing? Yeah,

629
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: Like if we kind of make it a bad thing

630
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 1: but it's not really a bad thing.

631
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it makes sense that people would be sad

632
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 2: about it, but it doesn't mean that the big CE

633
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 2: church is dying. It makes it the big C church

634
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 2: is adapting. So yeah, And I think that's an interesting

635
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 2: way that that comes up even in kind of the

636
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: ministry that that we do at EQUIP because there's certainly

637
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 2: years when pastors would come to me in private and

638
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 2: they would say, Okay, be honest with me, do you

639
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 2: think every church is just going to have a gay

640
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: affirming theology in five years? And this is just the

641
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 2: beginning of the end dot right. And what I told

642
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 2: them then was, well why And I think if we

643
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 2: look at the church in Europe, for example, the church

644
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 2: that persisted is smaller, but the church is persisted there

645
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: as a church that you know, teaches the historic Christian

646
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 2: sexual ethic among other things for the most part. Also,

647
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 2: America is not Europe there, so they may go a

648
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 2: different way. But I I, you know, what this would

649
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 2: have been five years ago, you know, said, what I

650
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 2: see is that like a lot of kind of younger

651
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 2: people who leave historic Christian sexual ethic churches and go

652
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 2: to kind of a revisionist sexual ethic churches. They only

653
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 2: go there for like a year or two and then

654
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: they just kind of leave church altogether. And so the

655
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 2: kind of like gay affirming churches, the kind of more

656
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,439
Speaker 2: progressive mainline spaces when I visit them. When I when

657
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 2: I visited them, they seem mostly filled with older, straight

658
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 2: people who find a revision of sexual ethic to be nicer.

659
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:19,959
Speaker 2: But it's not like it's drawn tons of young people

660
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,959
Speaker 2: who stick around. And then we've seen over the past

661
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 2: five years the kind of numbers for these kind of

662
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 2: more progressive mainline Protestant denominations just plummeting. Yeah, and and

663
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 2: and and there's not like there's these large revision of

664
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 2: sexual ethic you know, non denom evangelical churches popping up either.

665
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 2: So I guess I just say, like, and not that numbers,

666
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 2: not that not that there has to be growth in

667
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 2: order to believe that the Holy Spirit has power. But

668
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 2: even someone who does this work in LGBT plus topics,

669
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 2: I see that the places that are that are leaning

670
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 2: into God's wisdom even at times when it feels culturally unpopular,

671
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 2: and doing it with compassion, doing it winsomely. They're persisting,

672
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 2: you know, like long term, God's truth wins out and

673
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 2: even within generations. So yeah, yeah, I don't think we

674
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 2: have to worry too much about the micro trends or

675
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 2: don't overreact to the micro trends.

676
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think your point's well taken.

677
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that the worry that I see

678
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: in people is that drift, right, But I think it's

679
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: actually really encouraging to hear the pastors would even come

680
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 1: to you and talk about it. Right, because you don't affirm,

681
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: you know, you don't you don't advocate for a gay

682
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 1: affirming position. What you're trying to get churches to do

683
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: is recognize that this is just part of the texture

684
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: of ministry right now. Yeah, it's part of what we

685
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: deal with, and so you need to have more than

686
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 1: a position on it, you know, a biblical affirmation and

687
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: you know that you can point to. You've actually got

688
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: to think this through because it is going to hit

689
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: you in practical areas. And probably the bigger concern I

690
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: would argue is not that we're going to see this

691
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: explosion of gay affirming churches, but that the churches that

692
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: hold to a historic Christian ethic have become so marginalized

693
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: and uncompelling that there's no real alternative. And I think

694
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: that's part of what I picked it up in our

695
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 1: last conversation. You know, you've done a good job expressing

696
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: you here too, Like what you're trying to do is

697
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: help churches be that alternative and think it through in

698
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: a smart and effective way that is faithful to the Gospel,

699
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: but also recognizing, like what I'm calling the texture of

700
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: what you're doing in ministry, these things are going to

701
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: come up.

702
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 3: You need to think it through. How are you going

703
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 3: to deal with them?

704
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: And if you haven't, you're probably going to be caught,

705
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 1: you know, on your back foot, right right.

706
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I don't think our churches should abandon a

707
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 2: biblical sexual ethic or a historic Christian sexual ethic. But

708
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 2: on the other stream, I don't think we should go

709
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 2: back to sticking our heads in the sand or flirt

710
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 2: with a prey. The gay away theology again that we

711
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 2: know did not work and led to loss of life

712
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: and loss of faith, and I think both of those

713
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: are risks that we need to watch out for, and

714
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 2: I think instead, right, the solution is continue to hold

715
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 2: a historic Christian sexual ethic, teach it. But it's but

716
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: just believing it is not enough. Just having it written

717
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 2: down on your website is not enough. What's much more

718
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 2: important is how are we doing discipleship around that? How

719
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 2: are we making sure that everyone in our churches has

720
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 2: the support they need to thrive according to God's wisdom

721
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: for their gender and sexuality. And I think our churches

722
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 2: can do more when it comes to that, and not

723
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 2: because it's like a problem to be solved, because it'll

724
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 2: lead to more health and thriving and kingdom work and

725
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,359
Speaker 2: transformation in our cities. So like it's good, it's good

726
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 2: work to be doing.

727
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think of it.

728
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: You know, Jesus doesn't ignore the prostitutes. You know, he's

729
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: not ignoring the tax collectors. He's not ignoring you know,

730
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 1: he's not ignoring the sinners.

731
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 3: He's going to them.

732
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: And so that is not something that I picture Jesus going,

733
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's really great that we have all these

734
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: sinners around. I don't think he would say that, but

735
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: I think he recognizes within his historical context that they're there,

736
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: and he doesn't shy away from them. And that's a

737
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: very different approach than than as you're saying, stick your

738
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 1: head in the sand, you know, or you know, sort

739
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: of you know, isolate yourself from it. I mean, Jesus

740
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: just seemed like he was in this historic situation and

741
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 1: this is what I have to deal with. This is

742
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: where I'm doing ministry. I'm going to accept it and

743
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:52,359
Speaker 1: be faithful within it.

744
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 2: YEA, well, and I'll hop back on my my favorite

745
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 2: soapbox here one little last time. But that LGBT plus

746
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 2: people aren't just out there outside of our churches, right.

747
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 2: Most importantly, we've got kids in our pews who, by

748
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 2: no fault of their own and no fault of their parents,

749
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 2: as they go through puberty, some of them are going

750
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 2: to notice that the ways that the brokenness of the

751
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,399
Speaker 2: world has impacted them is that they develop same sex

752
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 2: attractions or gender incongruence. Have our churches what they've heard

753
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 2: the years before that has it set them up to

754
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 2: be afraid of what God has for them and afraid

755
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 2: of what their parents might say, and to hide for

756
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 2: five plus years and make sense of these important questions,

757
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 2: important discipleship questions all by themselves or with TikTok or

758
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 2: with the lives of the enemy, or has what they've

759
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 2: heard before going through puberty reassured them that they can

760
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: tell their parents, They can tell their pastors that God

761
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 2: is not surprised, that God has good wisdom for them,

762
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 2: that their parents don't want them to do it, make

763
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 2: sense of this alone, that they can share and that

764
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 2: they can embrace God's wisdom and thrive for a lifetime.

765
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: That's I think the most important LGBTs plus ministry we

766
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 2: can do is the kids in our pews.

767
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 3: So really good reminder, bro.

768
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I've had a few people on lately about

769
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: how to talk about kids and sex, and one of

770
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: the ladies, Lori Kreeg, had her on and she just

771
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: has such an amazing perspective on this. It's like, you know,

772
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: don't you know she ties it all in with what

773
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:44,479
Speaker 1: does it mean to be in the image of God?

774
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,720
Speaker 1: And what is our mission here? It's you know, sex

775
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: is certainly a part of God's good creation that we

776
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: can enjoy within the limitations of it. But her advocacy

777
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 1: was keep them on purpose, like give them something to

778
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 1: live for. That's compelling an interesting and so I hear

779
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: you echoing that and really appreciate that reminder that they're

780
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: not just these people are all centers, are not just

781
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: out there, they're also with us. And you know, our

782
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: role as church is to build up the Body of Christ,

783
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: and we do that numerically by bringing in new members,

784
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: but we also do that in a spiritually formative way

785
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 1: by growing people up into maturity.

786
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 2: And so amen to that.

787
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 3: Very good man.

788
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: Well, tell us a little bit about I mean, where

789
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 1: can people talk talk a little bit about where they

790
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 1: can connect with you, where they can find your ministry,

791
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:40,720
Speaker 1: all that kind of good fun stuff.

792
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, particularly because we've talked a little bit of shop

793
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,720
Speaker 2: today in terms of some of the challenges that pastors face.

794
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 2: I'll just say right. My day job is with a

795
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 2: ministry called EQUIP and we've worked with over forty thousand

796
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 2: Christian leaders and parents over the past decade or so

797
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 2: to help to make LGBT plus topics a win for

798
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,839
Speaker 2: the gospel according to a biblical sexual ethic. So feel

799
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 2: free to reach out to me at equip your community

800
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 2: dot org and would love to hop on a zoom

801
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 2: with any pastor and just you know, for free, you know,

802
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 2: no expectations, no commitments, just talk for an hour about

803
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 2: the challenge that you're facing in your church and if

804
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 2: there's any way I can be I can be helpful.

805
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 2: And then yeah, I get to post about a lot

806
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,399
Speaker 2: of this stuff and write about it and so on

807
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 2: socials you know, Instagram, X whatnot. You can find me

808
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 2: at Peter l vulk And that's all spelled funny. My

809
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 2: first name is spelled p I E T e R

810
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 2: an extra i in there Ella's and lyon v as

811
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: in Victor A l K at Peter l vulk. And

812
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 2: that's also where I'm at on substack. So there's a

813
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 2: lot of these kind of questions we've gotten into today

814
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 2: that I'm that I'm kind of rating out on stack.

815
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,919
Speaker 2: If that's where pastors and parents are learning these days.

816
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 2: So would love to connect. Love to answer people's questions

817
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 2: and me a resource. However, I can.

818
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: Be well, if you didn't have a pen and we're

819
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 1: writing all that down while you're listening to this in

820
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,760
Speaker 1: the car, don't worry. You can check out the episode description.

821
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: All the links will be there. I just encourage you

822
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: if you're somebody who's leading a church or involved in

823
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 1: your church and you're struggling with these issues. I've found

824
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 1: Peter to be a great source of wisdom on this

825
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: and I think it's needed. So if you're a church

826
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: that's struggling with this, please feel free reach out to him.

827
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: As he said, take his invitation as genuine and get

828
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: some help to meet the needs of your community and

829
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 1: your church. I think you won't be disappointed that you

830
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: do it. So Peter, thanks man for being here. It's

831
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 1: always it's always interesting to talk with you. I think

832
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: you just bring a whole different perspective on these matters

833
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: and it's always refreshing and I so appreciate it.

834
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 3: So thanks very much for being on the show again.

835
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 2: Well, you're welcome them. I appreciate the opportunity very cool.

836
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: Well, we will catch everybody on the next episode of

837
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 1: Thinking Christian.

838
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 3: Take care bye.

839
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the

840
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on

841
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,919
Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,

842
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.

843
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.